From kwakmiso at aol.com Mon Apr 1 00:37:38 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 20:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Question on NFB Scholarship application In-Reply-To: <-4185751747753109695@unknownmsgid> References: <-4185751747753109695@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <8CFFC883E9984D2-B9C-389DC@webmail-m133.sysops.aol.com> I applied to the scholarship for the first time this year. I clicked the submit button on the last Friday. According to an e-mail I received from NFB I am supposed to receive a confirmation e-mail after about an hour. I haven't so far. It didn't come through spam mail either. To verify I logged into the online app and found that there is no mention of me clicking the submit button. The application shows up as I left it before clicking the submit button. Should I re-click the submit button? Did anyone experience same situation? Please help! Thank you. Miso Kwak From member at linkedin.com Mon Apr 1 00:48:17 2013 From: member at linkedin.com (James Hulme via LinkedIn) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 00:48:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Eric, let's connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1022899033.17257806.1364777297383.JavaMail.app@ela4-app0129.prod> James Hulme requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ Eric, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - James Accept invitation from James Hulme http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-heyx5ya9-13/2LScsQM0ZAGW3fi7AMe09Fk_pJsa/blk/I482340636_11/3wOtCVFbmdxnSVFbm8JrnpKqlZJrmZzbmNJpjRQnOpBtn9QfmhBt71BoSd1p65Lr6lOfP4NnPoPdz0QcP8Ud4ALk4Z8lTdVh4gLd3oMdzAPdjsMcz4LrCBxbOYWrSlI/eml-comm_invm-b-in_ac-inv28/?hs=false&tok=1SnqYEfaKM55I1 View profile of James Hulme http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-heyx5ya9-13/rso/107250408/slDc/name/85813888_I482340636_11/?hs=false&tok=1QutwAXAGM55I1 You and James know 5 people in common. ------------------------------------------ You are receiving Invitation emails. This email was intended for Eric Gaudes. Learn why this is included: http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-heyx5ya9-13/plh/http%3A%2F%2Fhelp%2Elinkedin%2Ecom%2Fapp%2Fanswers%2Fdetail%2Fa_id%2F4788/-GXI/?hs=false&tok=1Um6IBkaqM55I1 (c) 2012, LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. Unsubscribe: Eric Gaudes https://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-heyx5ya9-13/2LScsQM0ZAGW3fi7AMe09Fk_pJsa/prv/?hs=false&tok=3ZkgdMxY6M55I1 From andrewjedg at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 01:08:49 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 21:08:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <000301ce2e6b$81c2f8e0$8548eaa0$@com> References: <000301ce2e6b$81c2f8e0$8548eaa0$@com> Message-ID: Hi I go to amusement parks myself and things. to be honest I actually don't take the cane since it is just one more thing to worry about or loose. or wrisk loosing. so I go completely sited guide. So there fore I can't offer suggestions. I do have a hard time with the rides with turn tables. On 3/31/13, Chun Chao wrote: > Will you be going to the water park alone or with a group of people? > When I went to theme parks at the end of college tours during high school > summers, I would have at least three friends with me in a group of four. > That way, we can take turns watching our stuff if one of us did not want to > go on a specific ride and I would use sighted guide with one of my friends > on the ride platform. > Moreover, traveling as a group in a theme park prevents pick-pocketing from > happening. > > After spending about a month or so in a high school to college program > during the summer times, I would have figured out which of my peers would > be > supportive friends and which peers do not work well with me. > Also, when the end of the summer program grows near, I would ask the > supportive peers if I can group up with them at the theme park. > > C.C. Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 2:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > I don't know what the rides you want to go on are specifically like, but a > telescopic cane would probably be your best bet since it's so compact. > Using shoe storage areas sounds like a good idea. You might also be able > to > have a park employee give it to you when you get off if there isn't a good > place to store it at the end of the ride. If you have to keep it with you > on the ride, and if they'll allow for it, you could try putting the loop at > the top of the cane around your wrist and holding onto it along with any > handlebars or something. It might be a little awkward, but if you can't > get > anything else to work the awkwardness would be worth having your cane when > you get off of the ride. > > Hope these ideas help. > > On 3/31/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such >> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk >> away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too >> long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe >> thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >> be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back >> to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >> >> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zerone1683%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 01:41:24 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:41:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <000301ce2e6b$81c2f8e0$8548eaa0$@com> Message-ID: I'm curious how you would go sighted guide if you are at the park alone? Do you get help from park employees? I admit that I don't have a good answer to this question since I usually have gone to a water park with at least one sighted person and stashed my cane in a locker and gone sighted guide. Once I did go to a water park with just blind people and I don't recall how we handled the cane issue. I think I appointed myself guardian of the canes and other belongings for everyone since I'm not big on water slides. All the suggestions about using a telescoping cane sound good, though. Arielle On 3/31/13, Andrew wrote: > Hi I go to amusement parks myself and things. to be honest I actually > don't take the cane since it is just one more thing to worry about or > loose. or wrisk loosing. so I go completely sited guide. > > So there fore I can't offer suggestions. > I do have a hard time with the rides with turn tables. > > On 3/31/13, Chun Chao wrote: >> Will you be going to the water park alone or with a group of people? >> When I went to theme parks at the end of college tours during high school >> summers, I would have at least three friends with me in a group of four. >> That way, we can take turns watching our stuff if one of us did not want >> to >> go on a specific ride and I would use sighted guide with one of my >> friends >> on the ride platform. >> Moreover, traveling as a group in a theme park prevents pick-pocketing >> from >> happening. >> >> After spending about a month or so in a high school to college program >> during the summer times, I would have figured out which of my peers would >> be >> supportive friends and which peers do not work well with me. >> Also, when the end of the summer program grows near, I would ask the >> supportive peers if I can group up with them at the theme park. >> >> C.C. Alan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 2:10 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> I don't know what the rides you want to go on are specifically like, but >> a >> telescopic cane would probably be your best bet since it's so compact. >> Using shoe storage areas sounds like a good idea. You might also be able >> to >> have a park employee give it to you when you get off if there isn't a >> good >> place to store it at the end of the ride. If you have to keep it with >> you >> on the ride, and if they'll allow for it, you could try putting the loop >> at >> the top of the cane around your wrist and holding onto it along with any >> handlebars or something. It might be a little awkward, but if you can't >> get >> anything else to work the awkwardness would be worth having your cane >> when >> you get off of the ride. >> >> Hope these ideas help. >> >> On 3/31/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk >>> away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too >>> long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe >>> thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back >>> to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zerone1683%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Mon Apr 1 02:10:46 2013 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:10:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <000301ce2e6b$81c2f8e0$8548eaa0$@com> Message-ID: <001201ce2e7e$202e1110$608a3330$@panix.com> I have no answer, either. However, although I've had a ride attendant hold my cane on some occasions at Disney theme parks, I thought it was interesting that both times I rode the Matterhorn at Disneyland, the ride attendants *insisted* that I strap my cane in with me (it was a straight cane). Presumably, the geography of the coaster is such that they thought that if it got stuck and I had to climb down, the cane would be of help. I'm sure they were right. Mike Freeman -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 6:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides I'm curious how you would go sighted guide if you are at the park alone? Do you get help from park employees? I admit that I don't have a good answer to this question since I usually have gone to a water park with at least one sighted person and stashed my cane in a locker and gone sighted guide. Once I did go to a water park with just blind people and I don't recall how we handled the cane issue. I think I appointed myself guardian of the canes and other belongings for everyone since I'm not big on water slides. All the suggestions about using a telescoping cane sound good, though. Arielle On 3/31/13, Andrew wrote: > Hi I go to amusement parks myself and things. to be honest I actually > don't take the cane since it is just one more thing to worry about or > loose. or wrisk loosing. so I go completely sited guide. > > So there fore I can't offer suggestions. > I do have a hard time with the rides with turn tables. > > On 3/31/13, Chun Chao wrote: >> Will you be going to the water park alone or with a group of people? >> When I went to theme parks at the end of college tours during high school >> summers, I would have at least three friends with me in a group of four. >> That way, we can take turns watching our stuff if one of us did not want >> to >> go on a specific ride and I would use sighted guide with one of my >> friends >> on the ride platform. >> Moreover, traveling as a group in a theme park prevents pick-pocketing >> from >> happening. >> >> After spending about a month or so in a high school to college program >> during the summer times, I would have figured out which of my peers would >> be >> supportive friends and which peers do not work well with me. >> Also, when the end of the summer program grows near, I would ask the >> supportive peers if I can group up with them at the theme park. >> >> C.C. Alan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 2:10 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> I don't know what the rides you want to go on are specifically like, but >> a >> telescopic cane would probably be your best bet since it's so compact. >> Using shoe storage areas sounds like a good idea. You might also be able >> to >> have a park employee give it to you when you get off if there isn't a >> good >> place to store it at the end of the ride. If you have to keep it with >> you >> on the ride, and if they'll allow for it, you could try putting the loop >> at >> the top of the cane around your wrist and holding onto it along with any >> handlebars or something. It might be a little awkward, but if you can't >> get >> anything else to work the awkwardness would be worth having your cane >> when >> you get off of the ride. >> >> Hope these ideas help. >> >> On 3/31/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk >>> away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too >>> long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe >>> thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back >>> to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zerone1683%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 1 02:40:41 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 21:40:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides References: <000301ce2e6b$81c2f8e0$8548eaa0$@com> <001201ce2e7e$202e1110$608a3330$@panix.com> Message-ID: <001501ce2e82$4dec48c0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Mike and everyone, Given that with many rides you exit at a slightly different location than where you got on they knew you would need to use the cane when you got off. I've heard of blind people taking canes on theme park rides for quite a while now. Chock one up for Disney. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides I have no answer, either. However, although I've had a ride attendant hold my cane on some occasions at Disney theme parks, I thought it was interesting that both times I rode the Matterhorn at Disneyland, the ride attendants *insisted* that I strap my cane in with me (it was a straight cane). Presumably, the geography of the coaster is such that they thought that if it got stuck and I had to climb down, the cane would be of help. I'm sure they were right. Mike Freeman -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 6:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides I'm curious how you would go sighted guide if you are at the park alone? Do you get help from park employees? I admit that I don't have a good answer to this question since I usually have gone to a water park with at least one sighted person and stashed my cane in a locker and gone sighted guide. Once I did go to a water park with just blind people and I don't recall how we handled the cane issue. I think I appointed myself guardian of the canes and other belongings for everyone since I'm not big on water slides. All the suggestions about using a telescoping cane sound good, though. Arielle On 3/31/13, Andrew wrote: > Hi I go to amusement parks myself and things. to be honest I actually > don't take the cane since it is just one more thing to worry about or > loose. or wrisk loosing. so I go completely sited guide. > > So there fore I can't offer suggestions. > I do have a hard time with the rides with turn tables. > > On 3/31/13, Chun Chao wrote: >> Will you be going to the water park alone or with a group of people? >> When I went to theme parks at the end of college tours during high school >> summers, I would have at least three friends with me in a group of four. >> That way, we can take turns watching our stuff if one of us did not want >> to >> go on a specific ride and I would use sighted guide with one of my >> friends >> on the ride platform. >> Moreover, traveling as a group in a theme park prevents pick-pocketing >> from >> happening. >> >> After spending about a month or so in a high school to college program >> during the summer times, I would have figured out which of my peers would >> be >> supportive friends and which peers do not work well with me. >> Also, when the end of the summer program grows near, I would ask the >> supportive peers if I can group up with them at the theme park. >> >> C.C. Alan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 2:10 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> I don't know what the rides you want to go on are specifically like, but >> a >> telescopic cane would probably be your best bet since it's so compact. >> Using shoe storage areas sounds like a good idea. You might also be able >> to >> have a park employee give it to you when you get off if there isn't a >> good >> place to store it at the end of the ride. If you have to keep it with >> you >> on the ride, and if they'll allow for it, you could try putting the loop >> at >> the top of the cane around your wrist and holding onto it along with any >> handlebars or something. It might be a little awkward, but if you can't >> get >> anything else to work the awkwardness would be worth having your cane >> when >> you get off of the ride. >> >> Hope these ideas help. >> >> On 3/31/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk >>> away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too >>> long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe >>> thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back >>> to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zerone1683%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 02:45:31 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 22:45:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the Maryland Association of Blind Students presents: a seminar on Social Savvy - April 27, 2013 Message-ID: <005d01ce2e82$fb1d9850$f158c8f0$@gmail.com> Dear fellow Federationists: The Maryland Association of Blind Students (MDABS,) a proud division of the National Federation of the Blind of Maryland (NFBMD) is pleased to announce our first Social Savvy seminar, to be held on April 27, 2013 in Chevy Chase, Maryland. This seminar will focus on ways in which a blind student can enjoy and benefit from social activities. We will also discuss alternative techniques which can be used in social settings. Some topics currently on our agenda include table ettiquet, nonvisual techniques for cooking and going through buffet lines, party planning, dancing and much more. We will also offer breakout sessions for the ladies and the gentlemen which will give participants the opportunity to learn about techniques specific to their gender as well as to discuss topics and issues. Some examples include tie-tying and chivalry for the guys, as well as fashion and makeup for the ladies. There will also be opportunities for participants to connect and network with each other in a fun and supportive setting. All in all, we hope that this seminar will help to increase your "social savvy" as a blind high school or college student. For all information regarding the logistics of this seminar, please see the attached flyer. If you have any questions, please contact Melissa Lomax at mlomax1 at umbc.edu or Chris Nusbaum at dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com. Please feel free to spread the word to anyone who might be interested in attending. We hope to see many of you at the seminar! Sincerely, The Maryland Association of Blind Students Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students: a division of the National Federation of the Blind of Maryland Phone: (443) 547-2409 Email: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Personal Twitter: @Chrisn98 MDABS Twitter: @MDMdabs Personal Facebook: www.facebook.com/dotkid Join the MDABS Facebook Group: search for Maryland Association of Blind Students Skype: christpher.nusbaum3 or search for Chris Nusbaum "Together, we are changing what it means to be blind." - Motto of the Louisiana Center for the Blind -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Social Savvy Seminar.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 13216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 02:56:52 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 22:56:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007101ce2e84$902779b0$b0766d10$@gmail.com> A folding cane would probably work as well. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides I don't know what the rides you want to go on are specifically like, but a telescopic cane would probably be your best bet since it's so compact. Using shoe storage areas sounds like a good idea. You might also be able to have a park employee give it to you when you get off if there isn't a good place to store it at the end of the ride. If you have to keep it with you on the ride, and if they'll allow for it, you could try putting the loop at the top of the cane around your wrist and holding onto it along with any handlebars or something. It might be a little awkward, but if you can't get anything else to work the awkwardness would be worth having your cane when you get off of the ride. Hope these ideas help. On 3/31/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit > side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such > that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk > away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too > long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe > thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, > because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just > be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back > to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 03:22:15 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 23:22:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid>, Message-ID: <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> I'd agree that it isn't good for PR, but I must say that he makes a good cane. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:50 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question I met Chris Park at the 2012 convention! He's into his canes, and he bad-mouths anyone and everyone that doesn't order his stuff! He's not a really nice man, unless you are using his products! That's not a good P.R. move! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question Hi all, Chris Park's site is: www.chrisparkdesign.com As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's totally been worth it. Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I found their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after > only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no > longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it > unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but > unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack > thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >> Arielle >> >> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that either. >>>> >>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>> >>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>> old (pre >>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>> better? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you check out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the opposite. >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! >>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:10 AM >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4cla >>>>>>>>>> rinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester846 >>>>>>>>> 2%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clar >>>>>>>>> inet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith >>>>>>>> 319%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462% >>>>>>> 40pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >>>>>>> et104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 >>>>>> 9%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 03:38:38 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 23:38:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <00a101ce2e8a$65f395b0$31dac110$@gmail.com> Kaiti, I would encourage you to check out www.ambutech.com for more info on the UltraLight cane. I will definitely post my thoughts on the cane when I get it. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question Hi all, Chris Park's site is: www.chrisparkdesign.com As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's totally been worth it. Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I found their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after > only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no > longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it > unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but > unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack > thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >> Arielle >> >> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that either. >>>> >>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>> >>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>> old (pre >>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>> better? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you check out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the opposite. >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! >>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:10 AM >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4cla >>>>>>>>>> rinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester846 >>>>>>>>> 2%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clar >>>>>>>>> inet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith >>>>>>>> 319%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462% >>>>>>> 40pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >>>>>>> et104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 >>>>>> 9%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 04:53:41 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 23:53:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515912f5.4888ec0a.09f3.1abf@mx.google.com> Arielle, I don't have an answer to your question about going to theme parks alone. However, in 99% of cases, going to theme parks is a social event. I for one would never go to a park by myself. Family and friends are most of the fun. So, I don't see your question about going to theme parks alone being much of an issue for most people. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104% 40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Apr 1 09:11:55 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 09:11:55 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid>, , <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris: his canes are too fragile! His folding cane that I bought, last year didn't last long, because when I folded it up, after I got it, and tried to unfold it to go to my next session, the stupid thing was already messed up, and one of the joints was broken. His straight canes are a disaster! The tips come off, way too easy! I tripped, on my way back from Denny's, and when I picked up my cane, when I got back, the tip was gone! I haven't had those problems with my Ambutech cane! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Chris Nusbaum [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:22 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question I'd agree that it isn't good for PR, but I must say that he makes a good cane. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:50 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question I met Chris Park at the 2012 convention! He's into his canes, and he bad-mouths anyone and everyone that doesn't order his stuff! He's not a really nice man, unless you are using his products! That's not a good P.R. move! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question Hi all, Chris Park's site is: www.chrisparkdesign.com As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's totally been worth it. Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I found their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after > only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no > longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it > unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but > unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack > thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >> Arielle >> >> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that either. >>>> >>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>> >>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>> old (pre >>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>> better? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you check out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the opposite. >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! >>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:10 AM >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4cla >>>>>>>>>> rinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester846 >>>>>>>>> 2%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clar >>>>>>>>> inet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith >>>>>>>> 319%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462% >>>>>>> 40pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >>>>>>> et104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 >>>>>> 9%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 1 14:27:22 2013 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 10:27:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] China: Striving for More Inclusive Communities | Haben Girma Message-ID: <48D993F0-FDCC-48A8-87D0-F775858DC63B@sbcglobal.net> http://www.habengirma.com/2013/03/27/373/ China: Striving for More Inclusive Communities Renmin University of China had never seen anything like it before. Judging from the countless people who gleefully snapped photos of us around the Forbidden City, people in Beijing had never seen anything like it before. Renmin students and Chinese tourists all seemed surprised to see two confident blind Americans. Haben Girma and Tai Blas, both law students, spent a week sharing their passion for disability rights with Beijing’s disability law community. The cultural exchange sparked new ideas for both the Chinese and the Americans. With Chinese culture’s emphasis on uniformity and American culture’s emphasis on individualism, the cultural exchange facilitated a rich conversation about what should be done for people with disabilities. A social environment that would offer the most civil rights for people with disabilities would likely be one that combined aspects of Chinese and American cultures: a sense of community responsibility/togetherness that simultaneously valued individual differences. Dean Han of Renmin University Law School invited us to Beijing in hopes of inspiring his students to become civil rights lawyers, and to seek ideas for making his law school more accessible to students with disabilities. Dean Han and his wonderful Program Coordinator Ms. XU Fei, Renmin professors Charles Wharton and Alonzo Emery who are connected with the Harvard Project on Disability, organized a busy week of lectures and meetings at Renmin University, Zhicheng Public Interest Law Firm, and the National Library for the Blind. Professor Emery observed that the enthusiasm, humor, and welcoming curiosity utilized by Tai and I in our lectures created a safe environment for students to ask difficult questions. What employment opportunities exist for blind Americans? What is dating with a disability like in America? Is the world ready for disabled lawyers? Question: How do you experience a new place if you can’t see or hear? Haben’s Answer: For me, the most meaningful part of travel stems from meeting new people and learning new cultures. People describe the landmarks and historic sights, and I experience them that way. There’s more to it, though. For example, yesterday at the Summer Palace we touched many of the statues and architectural features while our guides (Renmin students) told the history behind the Summer Palace. Walking around the lake, we could feel the breeze and smell the water. A man selling costume services showed us the traditional royal headdress. And then, of course, there is the ultimate travel experience that requires neither sight nor hearing: breathe in that thick smog and you instantly know you’re in Beijing! Question: But you are, in fact, different. So why should we treat you the same? Answer: What a good question! Should you pretend that someone who is balding actually has long hair? Should you require bald people to attend separate schools? No. Yes, blind people need help sometimes, although much less than you would think. Yes, blind people are different from sighted people, but in less ways than you would think. Blindness is merely the lack of sight. A nuisance for sure, but it is merely the lack of sight. The biggest barrier to equality is the assumption that people with disabilities cannot do something. Since blind and sighted people are mainly the same, society should predominantly treat them the same. As the questions revealed, China is in the process of transitioning to a social model of disability. Dean Han is very dedicated to making his school more accessible. Not only did he invite two successful law students with disabilities to educate the Renmin Law community, but he and Vice Dean Wang spent an entire evening with us exchanging ideas for making law school more accessible. Renmin Law has not yet admitted blind students for multiple reasons. The national examination required for admission to colleges and universities in China is mostly inaccessible. Strict national exams have a long history in China. The current university entrance examinations continue the deeply rooted principle that fair exams are those in which everyone takes them in the same way and at the same time. Reasonable accommodations for students with disabilities appears to conflict, at least on the surface, with historic principles of fairness. Since the government, for the most part, does not permit disability accommodations on the national exam, very few students with disabilities are able to take the exam, and even fewer gain admittance to prestigious universities like Renmin University. While disability rights advocates have looked into ways of securing accommodations for these exams, the options are currently very limited. Tai and I talked with Dean Han about offering alternative admission criteria for students with disabilities until reasonable accommodations are available for the national exam. In the US, before passage of the ADA, schools would sometimes waive the LSAT requirement for blind law school applicants. By admitting qualified applicants with disabilities, Renmin University could offer an education to students who could later become disability rights advocates who would secure more civil rights for all. Haben and Tai also discussed hiring faculty with disabilities to help generate more ideas for creating a more inclusive law school community. Dean Han and Professors Emery and Wharton at Renmin University’s Disability Law Clinic are working to increase access to education for people with disabilities, but they are not alone. Many other lawyers and advocates are working to promote disability rights. Many of these advocates shared their efforts with the rest of the disability law community during a conference at the Zhicheng Public Interest Law Firm. China’s Law on the Protection of Persons with Disabilities was passed in 2008. It is modeled on the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which China ratified while the US has not. Given that the Law has been in effect for only a few years, it is not surprising that advocates of students with disabilities expressed some ongoing concerns throughout the conference. Most schools require family members to help students with disabilities, which poses a serious challenge for working parents. In one case, a school would not provide school materials in large print for one student with low vision. Nonetheless, her grandfather dedicated extensive time to manually copying all her texts into large print so she could do her assignments. Many students don’t have family members available to dedicate their days to assisting in the classroom, and advocates felt that schools should take greater responsibility for students with disabilities. Currently, families are required to sign a liability waiver before a school will even admit a student with a disability. Some special schools have been created for certain students with disabilities that offer specialized materials, but these are few and far between. For example, Beijing’s sole school for the blind has the capacity to hold only 200 students, but the city’s entire population consists of a staggering 20 million people. Renmin University arranged for us to meet the principal and some students from the Beijing School for the Blind. The room felt charged with excitement as two blind Chinese students met two American blind students. The mother of one of the blind students teared up a bit as each side began to ask the other questions. How did blind students go to school in America? What did Haben and Tai plan to do when they finished school? Question: Do you have blind trails in America? Answer: No, we don’t, so it has been very fascinating to observe the blind trails here. Some of the major sidewalks in Beijing have a slight indentation trailing down the center. Construction of these trails aimed to assist blind pedestrians in following a sidewalk from one intersection to another. The trail will sometimes branch left or right in the middle of the sidewalk to lead to potentially helpful landmarks like a telephone booth. In metro stations the trail would branch off to gate entrances and agent counters. Rather than building blind trails in the US, state funds are made available to offer cane travel and guide dog training to blind individuals. Blindness skills training seemed very limited in China, though. In turn, the principal Mr. Gao and the students answer questions about life in Beijing. While some students with low vision make their way through mainstream education with the assistance of family members and assistive technology, only at the school for the blind could students learn braille or cane travel. The high school program at the school for the blind offers two majors: piano tuning and massage. Masseuses earn about 30 RMB an hour ($5/hour) and piano tuners make over 200 RMB an hour (over $30/hour). A student explained that piano tuning involved a lot of heavy tools and travel, which discouraged some students from pursuing that major. The principal seemed very interested in enhancing education for deafblind Chinese children. Upon learning that deafblind children can in fact use sign language, he immediately sent an assistant to find the deafblind manual alphabet on the Internet. Haben explained that deafblind children could be taught to communicate through Chinese Sign Language–while sighted deaf students would process the information visually, deafblind students could place their hands over the signer’s hands so they could listen to Chinese Sign Language through their hands. Educational opportunities currently do not exist for deafblind children in China, but this meeting may have planted the seed for future deafblind educational programs. At the end of our meeting, Mr. Gao had a special surprise. Mr. Gao could read English braille, and at the end of the meeting he presented us with business cards that he had specially made with English braille! After the meeting, we were invited to tour the National Library for the Blind, which housed Chinese braille books, large print books, their own braille display called Sunshine, computers with text-to-speech software, video magnifiers, and an incredible tactile museum. The museum held a diverse array of exhibits, from a giant hands-on solar system to ancient Chinese pottery. People interested in blind massage could find manuals in Chinese braille, as well as a large sculpture with indented pressure points. Especially noteworthy for blind visitors to Beijing, the museum has beautifully detailed models of the Forbidden City, Chairman Mao Memorial Hall, and the Olympic Stadium. Such a thrill to touch a model of the Forbidden City after touring the real thing only the previous day! A Blind Invasion of the Great Wall of China Our last great adventure occurred on our last day in China, and we invited blind journalist Wu Shuang to help us take over the Great Wall of China. Wu Shuang worked for a national disability rights organization called One Plus One. Through their radio program and magazine, this group of disabled journalists work to empower people with disabilities throughout China. They advise people with disabilities on all topics from finding the courage to assert one’s independence in the face of overprotective family members to learning to find a job. Wu Shuang and several of his colleagues had listened to our talk at the the Zhicheng Public Interest Law Firm. During the talk, we stressed the importance of blindness training in order for blind individuals to develop the confidence that would allow them to negotiate any challenges. With good braille skills, confident cane travel skills, cooking skills, and all basic self-care skills mastered–blindness diminishes to a mere nuisance, clearing the way for individuals to tackle greater challenges. These principles of confidence skills training are applicable to other disabilities, too. The One Plus One team immediately approached me after the talk with more questions. Which training centers are the best in the US? How much would it cost? Then, to my surprise, they informed me that they plan to visit one of these centers and try to create one in China. Tai and I had actually been hoping to persuade them to do that, so the fact that they so fully embraced the idea was exciting! On the drive to the Great Wall, Wu Shuang told us more about the work of One Plus One. Some of the biggest barriers faced by people with disabilities are simply the misconceptions and negative attitudes society has towards disabilities. Negative social pressures are probably felt even more in China than in the US since Chinese culture values conformity so much. People with disabilities appear very different on the surface, especially those with physical disabilities. As a result, PWDs tend to experience stifling social pressure to not be different. How does one learn to assert their needs and desires in the face of both external and internal pressures to conform? When our driver dropped us off at the entrance to the Great Wall, we stopped to figure out some logistics. With three blind people and two sighted people, how should we go up the wall? Two pairs and one alone? One long chain? March up the Wall without any formations? We discussed and discussed, then finally Charles asked Cameron (my Support Service Provider), “Do you want to chain it with just one blind person or two?” Tai jumped in with the perfect quip, “One Plus One! (yī jiā yī!)” Of course two blind people are better than one! Laughing and cheering, Charles chose to chain it with two rather than one. With three canes, three Caucasians, one African, and only one Asian among us, our group could not have possibly been more conspicuous. We subconsciously agreed to have a great time at the Great Wall–not a nice time or an OK time, but a GREAT time. Asserting our interests over the social pressures to hide our differences, we ignored the people who stopped, stared, and snapped pictures of our group. We didn’t hesitate to “be blind” by using our hands to admire turrets and carvings on the Wall. People noticed Charles and Cameron giving visual descriptions of the surroundings, and sometimes they chipped in, too. Charles: “OK guys, just another 20 steep steps ahead!” Helpful hiker, “And after that, just another 300!” People observing us, as doubtless they were, gained a new set of images of disability as they observed us dancing and singing. Tai had been longing to learn a song in Chinese, so Wu Shuang provided a musical performance. The path up the wall had quite a few gullies, and Charles jokingly described my method of crossing these gullies to the others as The Haben Hop. I urged him to come up with dance moves for all of us, and so we had: The Charlie Cane Wave, The Shuang Sing, The Tai Stomp, and The Cammy Run. We descended the Wall laughing, doing our various dance moves, and taking turns being blind photographers. In the last stretch before our car, we linked arms and formed one long blind chain with Cameron at the lead and Charles in the middle with his eyes closed. Climbing the Great Wall of China with fellow disability rights advocates held a special meaning. Our presence added a new history to the Great Wall, a wall that already contained thousands of years of special meanings. Who knows how disability rights in China might change after our week’s worth of learning, sharing, and exchanging ideas. The decision of Renmin University Law School to organize a disability rights exchange created this wonderful trip with lasting benefits. Students at Renmin University learned that people with disabilities are people who should be treated with dignity and respect. The school’s leaders learned about ways to overcome the inaccessibility of the national exam, such as by offering alternative admission options. Disability rights lawyers and advocates learned about the importance of confidence and independence training centers. In fact, members of One Plus One plan to visit a blindness skills training center in the US and build a similar training center in China. These are some of the concrete benefits, but so many benefits are hard to quantify. How many of the students last week felt inspired enough by our lectures to become disability rights lawyers? How do you quantify the ways in which the principal of the school for the blind felt motivated to envision careers for his students beyond massage and piano tuning, or even opening his school’s doors to deafblind children? It’s hard to put a finger on all the benefits of diversity, but I came home from China with an overwhelming sense of enlightenment. Before this trip, I hadn’t realized the fundamental importance of confidence and independence skills. A smartphone with text-to-speech and GPS certainly makes traveling easier, but even that would be useless if Tai and I had not received training in how to travel with a white cane, how to ask people for directions and thank them for their assistance. Expensive technology helps, but it is not necessary. Helen Keller made it through college with only a typewriter. Self-confidence allows people with disabilities to negotiate obstacles and educate inaccessible institutions. Due to the self-confidence developed at blindness training centers, Tai and I did not hesitate to have the greatest adventure of a lifetime in Beijing. This entry was posted in News by Haben. Bookmark the permalink. From pricek at UIC.EDU Mon Apr 1 14:15:31 2013 From: pricek at UIC.EDU (Price, Kevin) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 14:15:31 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Nationwide Employment Mentoring Project for Students Who are Legally Blind Message-ID: <7676ED7B79E79D4DA6335CE37E181424A04609@CC-X10MBX1.ad.uic.edu> Students, Here is an opportunity if you are legally blind. Check below for the information and contact person with more information. Hope you had a great spring break! Kevin I am contacting you in the hopes that you can help identify college-age students who are legally blind. The National Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision (NRTC) at Mississippi State University continues to seek students and professionals to participate in a nationwide Employment Mentoring Project that pairs students with legally blind mentors and offers career resources in an effort to improve employment outcomes. We are looking specifically for students graduating college or grad school between August 2013 and December 2014. Students graduating before March 2014 should sign up right away to be included in the next group! Students must be legally blind, under age 35, living anywhere in the U.S., and seeking employment after graduation. Although finding students to participate is our greatest need, we are also seeking legally blind mentors. Do you know of anyone who might meet these qualifications and would benefit from participating? If you do, please share this information! For more details, please visit: http://tiny.cc/mentoring-project or contact Dr. Jamie O'Mally at nrtc2 at colled.msstate.edu or 1-800-675-7782. Also, please consider sharing or signing up for our national Participant Registry for Blindness and Low Vision Research (http://tiny.cc/participant-registry ). We really appreciate your help! Jamie O'Mally, Ph.D. Assistant Research Professor The National Research and Training Center on Blindness & Low Vision (NRTC) Mississippi State University P.O. Box 6189 Mississippi State, MS 39762 662-325-2001 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 16:08:41 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 10:08:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> References: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and > Use a folding cane with a holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit > side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such > that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk > away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too > long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe > thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, > because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just > be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back > to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 17:41:13 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 11:41:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Research Study Message-ID: Dear list, My name is Arielle Silverman, and I am a doctoral student in psychology at the University of Colorado at Boulder. My advisor, Dr. Geoffrey Cohen, and I are conducting an online study investigating blind and visually impaired adults’ experiences with preparing for and getting employment. We are looking for legally blind adults over the age of 18 who live in the United States and who are currently seeking employment, as well as high school and college seniors and graduate students who plan to graduate in May or August 2013, to participate in our study. This study consists of three phases, which you will complete entirely online. During the first phase, you will answer some questions about your background, attitudes and personal experiences, and will write a short essay about a personally significant event. This session will last for about 45 minutes. Then, you will be asked to fill out a brief questionnaire every night for the next seven days, describing your experiences and things you did during the day. Each of these should take about 10 minutes. Finally, about a month from now, you will fill out another online survey similar to the first one, which should take about half an hour. In exchange for your participation, you will receive three $10 gift certificates to a merchant of your choice (either Amazon.com, Itunes.com, Olive Garden Restaurant, or AMC Theaters), one for each phase of the study. To be eligible to participate, you must be: (1) a legally blind adult aged 18 or older living in the United States; and either (2) currently seeking a long-term job, or (3) a student planning to graduate by August 2013 and then planning to seek employment after graduation. High school, college and graduate students are all eligible, as long as you intend to seek employment immediately after graduating. To complete the first part of the study and receive your first $10 gift certificate, please go to: http://ucsas.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_1OdonrYSXxrepfL Or, if you would prefer, you may email me at Arielle.silverman at colorado.edu To request a text version of the initial survey. If you are not eligible to participate yourself, I would appreciate if you could forward this announcement to anyone you know who is eligible and might be interested. If you have any questions before, during or after the study, feel free to contact me at Arielle.silverman at colorado.edu You may also contact Dr. Geoffrey Cohen at Cohen.geoff at gmail.com Thank you in advance for your participation in our research. From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 18:22:03 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 14:22:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the second time and they were very accomodating. On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I > was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know > it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to > meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but > I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters > or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane > to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but > those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and > things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I > could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the > motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I > actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it > sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the > help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and >> Use a folding cane with a holster. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >> Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such >> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk >> away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too >> long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe >> thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >> be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back >> to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >> >> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 18:26:08 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 14:26:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid> <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I'll definitely check the site out. Joshua: Really? I actually have had issues with ambutech tips. My folding cane I bought from them a few years ago lost the rolling part of the tip the first night I used it. Thankfully I was with friends who quickly noticed it on the ground and were able to fix it, but the rolling part has fallen off and needed to be hot glued back on several times since then. I eventually just got a new tip for it, but it bothered me that Ambutech would send out a faulty product like that. On 4/1/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Chris: his canes are too fragile! > His folding cane that I bought, last year didn't last long, because when I > folded it up, after I got it, and tried to unfold it to go to my next > session, the stupid thing was already messed up, and one of the joints was > broken. > His straight canes are a disaster! > The tips come off, way too easy! > I tripped, on my way back from Denny's, and when I picked up my cane, when I > got back, the tip was gone! > I haven't had those problems with my Ambutech cane! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Chris Nusbaum > [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:22 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > I'd agree that it isn't good for PR, but I must say that he makes a good > cane. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:50 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > I met Chris Park at the 2012 convention! > He's into his canes, and he bad-mouths anyone and everyone that doesn't > order his stuff! > He's not a really nice man, unless you are using his products! > That's not a good P.R. move! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton > [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > Hi all, > > Chris Park's site is: > www.chrisparkdesign.com > > As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a > way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the > contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he > seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his > model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the > Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's > totally been worth it. > > Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that > was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I > found > their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last > long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) > > > > On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after >> only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no >> longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it >> unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but >> unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack >> thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: >> >>> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >>> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >>> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >>> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that > either. >>>>> >>>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>>> old (pre >>>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>>> better? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you check > out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the >>>>>>>>>>> opposite. >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:10 AM >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4cla >>>>>>>>>>> rinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester846 >>>>>>>>>> 2%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clar >>>>>>>>>> inet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith >>>>>>>>> 319%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462% >>>>>>>> 40pccua.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >>>>>>>> et104%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 >>>>>>> 9%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 18:53:26 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 14:53:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [Greater-baltimore] Video Game Accessibility Study--Help Needed In-Reply-To: <965311AAC56BF8439DE96D9AB687BE8B2C2B392E@CH1PRD0711MB419.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <965311AAC56BF8439DE96D9AB687BE8B2C2B392E@CH1PRD0711MB419.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <002c01ce2f0a$31e961c0$95bc2540$@gmail.com> Thought some would be interested in participating in this study. Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: Greater-baltimore [mailto:greater-baltimore-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shaheen, Natalie Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:47 AM To: greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org Subject: [Greater-baltimore] Video Game Accessibility Study--Help Needed Federationists: The NFB has worked with faculty at Towson University for over a decade on accessibility. Over the last year, we have begun working with Dr. Joyram Chakraborty, a colleague of Dr. Jonathon Lazar's, on video game accessibility. Dr. Chakraborty and his pupils are working on some research to that end. A note below from Dr. Chakraborty explains the research and how you can help. >From Dr. Chakraborty: We are conducting an exploratory study to examine gaming interfaces for the blind. We have recreated a 1980s console-based game for a computer. We would like to test the game using members of the NFB. Your valuable participation will help us understand and develop better gaming interfaces for the blind. The entire study should take no more than 30-45 minutes. It will involve you playing our game and offering us some feedback on your gaming experiences. Thank you for your kind assistance! Dr. Chakraborty is willing to bring the game to you or meet at a mutually agreeable location. If you are interested in helping, please contact Dr. Chakraborty at jchakraborty at towson.edu. Thank you in advance for your contribution to this endeavor. Natalie Shaheen nshaheen at nfb.org _______________________________________________ Greater-baltimore mailing list Greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/greater-baltimore_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Greater-baltimore: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/greater-baltimore_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 21:27:13 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 14:27:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The National Association of Blind Students presents: Getting to that training center Message-ID: How to Get to that Training Center! We know people like you. You know that you want to get comprehensive adjustment to blindness training, and you would really like to go to an NFB training center. But you have also heard the horror stories about how difficult it is to convince your VR counselor that attending an NFB training center will give you the proper training and tools to reach your true potential. Join us for an informative call with special guest Al Spooner, Assistant Director of Outreach and Marketing at BLIND, Inc., one of the NFB’s training centers, to learn how to work with a difficult agency. You’ll get a start to finish timeline of what documents you’ll need to fill out, how to word things, and how to problem- solve when your counselor does not respond or sidesteps your requests. You’ll also hear from Cindy Bennett, NABS Secretary and Membership Committee member on her experiences problem-solving with her state agency to get to, and to stay in training for the amount of time she needed. When: Sunday, April 7, 7:00 P.M. Eastern Where: Call 605-475-6700 and enter the access code 7869673 Who: Anyone who could benefit! We look forward to sharing our insight on how to make your own, informed choice and get to that training center! We’ll be available to answer questions after the presentation. *To listen to this call online Please visit: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/listen to access the live stream. From hhamraz at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 21:41:57 2013 From: hhamraz at gmail.com (Hamid Hamraz) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 17:41:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Nationwide Employment Mentoring Project for Students Whoare Legally Blind Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Price, Kevin" To: Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:15 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Nationwide Employment Mentoring Project for Students Whoare Legally Blind > Students, > Here is an opportunity if you are legally blind. Check below for the > information and contact person with more information. > Hope you had a great spring break! > Kevin > > I am contacting you in the hopes that you can help identify college-age > students who are legally blind. The National Research and Training Center > on Blindness and Low Vision (NRTC) at Mississippi State University > continues to seek students and professionals to participate in a > nationwide Employment Mentoring Project that pairs students with legally > blind mentors and offers career resources in an effort to improve > employment outcomes. We are looking specifically for students graduating > college or grad school between August 2013 and December 2014. Students > graduating before March 2014 should sign up right away to be included in > the next group! > > Students must be legally blind, under age 35, living anywhere in the U.S., > and seeking employment after graduation. Although finding students to > participate is our greatest need, we are also seeking legally blind > mentors. Do you know of anyone who might meet these qualifications and > would benefit from participating? If you do, please share this > information! For more details, please visit: > http://tiny.cc/mentoring-project or contact Dr. Jamie O'Mally at > nrtc2 at colled.msstate.edu or 1-800-675-7782. Also, please consider sharing > or signing up for our national Participant Registry for Blindness and Low > Vision Research (http://tiny.cc/participant-registry ). > > We really appreciate your help! > > Jamie O'Mally, Ph.D. > Assistant Research Professor > The National Research and Training Center on Blindness & Low Vision (NRTC) > Mississippi State University > P.O. Box 6189 > Mississippi State, MS 39762 > 662-325-2001 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hhamraz%40gmail.com > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 23:09:35 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:09:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Stolen grates draining city funds Message-ID: <004501ce2f2d$fa3fc4c0$eebf4e40$@gmail.com> I thought I'd pass this article along from USA Today, not for the municipal budget drains, but for the safety concern. Be careful out there. Don't fall in.--Joe Stolen grates draining city funds By Larry Copeland, @ByLarryCopeland, USA TODAY This is heavy theft. Thieves in communities around the USA are stealing metal storm drain grates, costing local governments thousands of dollars and imperiling the safety of motorists, bicyclists and pedestrians. The steel or iron grates, which weigh 200-300 pounds apiece, cover storm drains that are sometimes 4 to 5 feet wide with a drop of 10 feet or more, Mark McKinnon of the Georgia Department of Transportation says. Authorities here and elsewhere worry that motorists pulling over could damage their vehicles by driving into an uncovered storm drain. Or that someone stopping alongside a highway and getting out of a car, especially at night, could tumble into one. We can't let this go or put it off, the way we can with something like litter pickup," McKinnon says. This is a safety issue. When these things turn up missing, we've got to replace them. It's happening in other places, too: In recent weeks, thieves have stolen storm grates from several communities in the Philadelphia area. In New Garden Township, police are investigating the theft of 16 grates, says interim township manager Spencer Andress. It's a real safety hazard," he says. There are three other neighboring communities that have experienced this. Factoring in transportation, installation and labor costs, replacing each grate costs $700-$800, he says. One morning in February, the people of Perry Village, N.Y., about 50 miles east of Buffalo, found seven storm drain grates missing, village administrator Terry Murphy says. The village offered a $1,000 reward, but there were no takers. My fear is it was somebody not in the immediate area," he says. If it was a local, somebody would've ratted them out. It's going to cost about $3,500 to replace the grates, he says. Thieves in Gresham, Ore., stole 18 storm grates in the past few weeks that will cost an estimated $7,500 to replace, Watershed Division manager Jennifer Belknap Williamson told KOIN Local 6 television. In Atlanta, about 600 storm drain grates have been stolen over the past few months across the metro area, mostly along expressways. Investigators are checking junkyards but the grates, which fetch only $15-$20 when sold for scrap, have not turned up, McKinnon says. With such a small return on investment as scrap and with a two- or three-man crew required to steal each grate, McKinnon says officials speculate that the grates are being sold out-of-state to developers who are unaware that they're stolen. If somebody comes to a developer or developers and says, 'We can get you these for $200 instead of $350 or $400,' they would see that as a good deal, not realizing they're stolen," McKinnon says. McKinnon says investigators are probing the possibility that the Atlanta thieves are posing as utility workers or road department personnel while doing their heavy lifting. From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 23:11:04 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 17:11:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I remember once when I was 11 I went to Universal Studios and my folding cane fell out of the tram that goes all around the park. I guess it fell out right when we passed JAWS and everyone was teasing me about JAWS eating my cane! The ride people eventually found my cane and gave it back but it took several hours and I got pretty upset thinking my cane was lost for good. I don't remember if I had folded it up before putting it in the tram but I'm guessing I probably did and just didn't secure it well enough. Arielle On 4/1/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I >> was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know >> it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to >> meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but >> I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters >> or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane >> to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but >> those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and >> things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I >> could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the >> motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I >> actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it >> sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the >> help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and >>> Use a folding cane with a holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk >>> away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too >>> long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe >>> thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back >>> to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 23:12:28 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:12:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Writing_the_R=E9sum=E9_that_Gets_the_Inte?= =?iso-8859-1?q?rview?= Message-ID: <004a01ce2f2e$63e0a1b0$2ba1e510$@gmail.com> Even under better economic circumstances, landing a job interview can be an exercise in patience and fortitude. Job seekers find themselves submitting dozens of applications--sometimes slaving for hours over a single packet only to receive an indifferent rejection, assuming that the employer even bothers responding. Yet, where is the line between getting passed up because you are not qualified and getting passed up because you did not adequately present your qualifications? Let’s examine the résumé, arguably the most critical application component, and some ways you might consider building it up to land yourself an interview. For specific advice about what sections go where, consider performing a “résumé writing” Google search. What follows is advice for résumés beyond the first draft. Before anything else, consider the presentation. By contemporary standards you are no longer bound to showcasing your talents on a single page; however, remember two points: first, make sure that entries are not broken across multiple pages; and second, only move into the next page if you can cover at least a third of the page. If you are physically submitting the résumé, it is preferable to bind the multiple pages using a paper clip. A staple may come loose and tear the paper. The paper itself should be the standard 8.5 x 11 in size and should be heavier than traditional copy paper but does not need to be of fancy stock. You need not buy the super-snow-white some designers use to entice customers. Finally, make sure that your font is legible. Do not use anything smaller than 9 points for sans-serifed type and 10 points for serifed type. Use a laser printer to print in 100% black. Now, remember your résumé may be addressing two potential audiences. Read the rest of the article: http://joeorozco.com/blog_writing_the_resume_that_gets_the_interview From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 23:56:17 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah Meeks) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 16:56:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. They are very accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I >> was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know >> it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to >> meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but >> I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters >> or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane >> to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but >> those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and >> things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I >> could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the >> motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I >> actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it >> sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the >> help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and >>> Use a folding cane with a holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk >>> away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too >>> long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe >>> thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back >>> to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Apr 2 00:29:06 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 00:29:06 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid> <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: I'm using the medal tips. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 1:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question Hi, I'll definitely check the site out. Joshua: Really? I actually have had issues with ambutech tips. My folding cane I bought from them a few years ago lost the rolling part of the tip the first night I used it. Thankfully I was with friends who quickly noticed it on the ground and were able to fix it, but the rolling part has fallen off and needed to be hot glued back on several times since then. I eventually just got a new tip for it, but it bothered me that Ambutech would send out a faulty product like that. On 4/1/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Chris: his canes are too fragile! > His folding cane that I bought, last year didn't last long, because when I > folded it up, after I got it, and tried to unfold it to go to my next > session, the stupid thing was already messed up, and one of the joints was > broken. > His straight canes are a disaster! > The tips come off, way too easy! > I tripped, on my way back from Denny's, and when I picked up my cane, when I > got back, the tip was gone! > I haven't had those problems with my Ambutech cane! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Chris Nusbaum > [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:22 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > I'd agree that it isn't good for PR, but I must say that he makes a good > cane. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:50 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > I met Chris Park at the 2012 convention! > He's into his canes, and he bad-mouths anyone and everyone that doesn't > order his stuff! > He's not a really nice man, unless you are using his products! > That's not a good P.R. move! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton > [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > Hi all, > > Chris Park's site is: > www.chrisparkdesign.com > > As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a > way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the > contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he > seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his > model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the > Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's > totally been worth it. > > Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that > was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I > found > their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last > long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) > > > > On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after >> only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no >> longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it >> unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but >> unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack >> thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: >> >>> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >>> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >>> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >>> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that > either. >>>>> >>>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>>> old (pre >>>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>>> better? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you check > out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the >>>>>>>>>>> opposite. >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:10 AM >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4cla >>>>>>>>>>> rinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester846 >>>>>>>>>> 2%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clar >>>>>>>>>> inet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith >>>>>>>>> 319%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462% >>>>>>>> 40pccua.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >>>>>>>> et104%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 >>>>>>> 9%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 01:26:25 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901ce2f41$1865fd80$4931f880$@gmail.com> Sarah, Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user than to a cane user? Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. They are very accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I >> was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I >> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to >> meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but >> I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters >> or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight >> cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, >> but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides >> and things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I >> could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the >> motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I >> actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it >> sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for >> the help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane >>> with a holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>> exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>> are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often >>> quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My >>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it >>> would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would >>> just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide >>> me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92%40gm > ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 01:40:26 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:40:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 01:47:05 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:47:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 01:54:38 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:54:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001ce2f45$0a497c00$1edc7400$@gmail.com> It must have been Jaws the shark, not JAWS the screen reader! The screen reader would never do such a thing! Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides I remember once when I was 11 I went to Universal Studios and my folding cane fell out of the tram that goes all around the park. I guess it fell out right when we passed JAWS and everyone was teasing me about JAWS eating my cane! The ride people eventually found my cane and gave it back but it took several hours and I got pretty upset thinking my cane was lost for good. I don't remember if I had folded it up before putting it in the tram but I'm guessing I probably did and just didn't secure it well enough. Arielle On 4/1/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I >> was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I >> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to >> meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but >> I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters >> or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight >> cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, >> but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides >> and things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I >> could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the >> motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I >> actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it >> sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for >> the help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane >>> with a holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>> exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>> are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often >>> quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My >>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it >>> would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would >>> just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide >>> me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:19:52 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:19:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid>, , <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001301ce2f48$907daff0$b1790fd0$@gmail.com> And I haven't had those problems with a Chris Park cane with a metal tip. Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 5:12 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question Chris: his canes are too fragile! His folding cane that I bought, last year didn't last long, because when I folded it up, after I got it, and tried to unfold it to go to my next session, the stupid thing was already messed up, and one of the joints was broken. His straight canes are a disaster! The tips come off, way too easy! I tripped, on my way back from Denny's, and when I picked up my cane, when I got back, the tip was gone! I haven't had those problems with my Ambutech cane! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Chris Nusbaum [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:22 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question I'd agree that it isn't good for PR, but I must say that he makes a good cane. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:50 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question I met Chris Park at the 2012 convention! He's into his canes, and he bad-mouths anyone and everyone that doesn't order his stuff! He's not a really nice man, unless you are using his products! That's not a good P.R. move! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question Hi all, Chris Park's site is: www.chrisparkdesign.com As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's totally been worth it. Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I found their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after > only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no > longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it > unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but > unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack > thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >> Arielle >> >> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that either. >>>> >>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>> >>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>> old (pre >>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>> better? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you >>>>>>>> check out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the opposite. >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! >>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:10 AM >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4cla >>>>>>>>>> rinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester846 >>>>>>>>> 2%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clar >>>>>>>>> inet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith >>>>>>>> 319%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462% >>>>>>> 40pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >>>>>>> et104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 >>>>>> 9%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:18:14 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sarah, I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just said, so I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is different, so I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra perk and cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other disability or legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so farbeit from me to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and I feel very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line with everybody else, you should. Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've caved in to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I don't always measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe very passionately that we should not take "accommodation" where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, and it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. That's my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly skipped in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), but accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real need. We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage of things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, isn't entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we _have_ to have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal responsibility. Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger problems we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement parks. I think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay to cut in line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative of a far, far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that we are entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We wouldn't phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary extended time for assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is unnecessary), demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for us, begging rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, yes, cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're really saying? Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like > everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user than > to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went twice > as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my parents > also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my sister > was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and not > get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me the > entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I went > again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney > staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me or > holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water > rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides which > start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you can > secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane > and > the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop > around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds > good, > although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about > it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the cane > too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the > second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was > traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet > people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll > confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or > folding > cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides > like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride > attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually > start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could > glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over > the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy > another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the > year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my > primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with > a > holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit > side > of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you > get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the > place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be > a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because > I > know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, > because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe > holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Tue Apr 2 02:25:11 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:25:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane but go to guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the exit. You have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every ride you can go up the exit and not wait in line. On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like > everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user than > to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went twice > as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my parents > also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my sister > was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and not > get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me the > entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I went > again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney > staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me or > holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water > rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides which > start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you can > secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane > and > the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop > around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds > good, > although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about > it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the cane > too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the > second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was > traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet > people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll > confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or > folding > cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides > like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride > attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually > start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could > glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over > the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy > another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the > year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my > primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with > a > holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit > side > of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you > get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the > place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be > a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because > I > know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, > because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe > holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:27:40 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:27:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401ce2f49$a6afcbe0$f40f63a0$@gmail.com> That's how they do it at Disney. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane but go to guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the exit. You have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every ride you can go up the exit and not wait in line. On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours > like everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user > than to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I > was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to > meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but > I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters > or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight > cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, > but those rides usually start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I > could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the > motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I > actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it > sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane > with a holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the > exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides > are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often > quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it > would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, > because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would > just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me > back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:29:26 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:29:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501ce2f49$e5cc69a0$b1653ce0$@gmail.com> Kirt, I agree. Very well said. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Sarah, I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just said, so I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is different, so I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra perk and cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other disability or legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so farbeit from me to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and I feel very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line with everybody else, you should. Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've caved in to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I don't always measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe very passionately that we should not take "accommodation" where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, and it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. That's my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly skipped in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), but accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real need. We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage of things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, isn't entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we _have_ to have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal responsibility. Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger problems we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement parks. I think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay to cut in line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative of a far, far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that we are entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We wouldn't phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary extended time for assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is unnecessary), demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for us, begging rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, yes, cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're really saying? Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours > like everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user > than to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I > was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to > meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but > I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters > or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight > cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, > but those rides usually start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I > could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the > motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I > actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it > sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane > with a holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the > exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides > are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often > quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it > would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, > because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would > just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me > back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:31:57 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 19:31:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515a434a.e5b6440a.215e.0655@mx.google.com> Yeah. And with a cane, people ran me over as if I weren't there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:32:09 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 19:32:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515a4355.e5b6440a.215e.0664@mx.google.com> besides, I have had too many experiences where I waited in line for a ride if need be, and waited 2 hours, then I get up there and they try to say I can't ride because of my blindness and I might get scared because of the ride's speed and height. That happened to me at Disney and the fair. Because at fairs I can't get immediate boarding passes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:32:05 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 19:32:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515a4352.e5b6440a.215e.065f@mx.google.com> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park anyways. I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 broke down and sy had to replace a wheel. But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on. People are just jealous because they can't do it! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Tue Apr 2 02:39:30 2013 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:39:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d801ce2f4b$4db8ea60$e92abf20$@panix.com> Right on, Kirt. What I would have given, though, for a 36-oz. flagon of beer while waiting in one of those long lines in the hot sun at Disneyland! I agree with you completely. Although I'll fess up; I'd have a devil of a time keeping my Federationism pure were someone to propose a law that all blind persons could fly first-class. (huge grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Sarah, I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just said, so I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is different, so I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra perk and cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other disability or legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so farbeit from me to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and I feel very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line with everybody else, you should. Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've caved in to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I don't always measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe very passionately that we should not take "accommodation" where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, and it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. That's my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly skipped in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), but accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real need. We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage of things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, isn't entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we _have_ to have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal responsibility. Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger problems we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement parks. I think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay to cut in line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative of a far, far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that we are entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We wouldn't phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary extended time for assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is unnecessary), demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for us, begging rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, yes, cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're really saying? Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours > like everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user > than to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I > was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to > meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but > I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters > or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight > cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, > but those rides usually start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I > could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the > motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I > actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it > sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane > with a holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the > exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides > are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often > quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it > would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, > because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would > just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me > back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 02:47:29 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:47:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <515a4352.e5b6440a.215e.065f@mx.google.com> References: <515a4352.e5b6440a.215e.065f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20220097-ABEB-4D0F-81D6-B3F7181B4CAE@gmail.com> Wait, so do they let you right on the rides because you have a service dog or because you bought an immediate ride pass? If its the pass, that's fine! People without disabilities can buy those too if they can afford it. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 8:32 PM, Sarah wrote: > I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park anyways. I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 broke down and sy had to replace a wheel. But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on. People are just jealous because they can't do it! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just said, so > I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is > different, so I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take > that extra perk and cut through line; for all I know, there really is > some other disability or legitimate need for that accommodation with > some of us, so farbeit from me to condemn everyone wholesale for > making that choice. Still, and I feel very strongly about this, if > you are capable of waiting in line with everybody else, you should. > Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've caved in > to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I > don't always measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless > believe very passionately that we should not take "accommodation" > where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, and > it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines > before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. That's > my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly skipped > in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), > but accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real need. > We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage of > things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, > if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. > Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, isn't > entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we _have_ to > have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal > responsibility. Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the > larger problems we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought > to accept cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want equal > access to amusement parks. I think, for many blind people, the > attitude which says it's okay to cut in line even though we could wait > like everyone else is indicative of a far, far larger problem. I am, > of course, referring to the idea that we are entitled to special > treatment and superior, not equal access. We wouldn't phrase it that > way...but when we're asking for unnecessary extended time for > assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is unnecessary), > demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for us, > begging rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology > and, yes, cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're > really saying? Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like > everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user than > to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went twice > as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my parents > also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my sister > was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and not > get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me the > entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I went > again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney > staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me or > holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water > rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides which > start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you can > secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane > and > the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop > around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds > good, > although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about > it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the cane > too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the > second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was > traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet > people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll > confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or > folding > cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides > like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride > attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually > start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could > glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over > the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy > another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the > year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my > primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with > a > holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit > side > of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you > get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the > place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be > a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because > I > know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, > because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe > holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 03:04:07 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:04:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines Message-ID: Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle From k7uij at panix.com Tue Apr 2 03:08:12 2013 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <515a4355.e5b6440a.215e.0664@mx.google.com> References: <515a4355.e5b6440a.215e.0664@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00fa01ce2f4f$4fe96220$efbc2660$@panix.com> One of the nuisances of blindness that we cannot expect to be compensated for IMO. (grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides besides, I have had too many experiences where I waited in line for a ride if need be, and waited 2 hours, then I get up there and they try to say I can't ride because of my blindness and I might get scared because of the ride's speed and height. That happened to me at Disney and the fair. Because at fairs I can't get immediate boarding passes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Tue Apr 2 03:08:50 2013 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <515a4352.e5b6440a.215e.065f@mx.google.com> References: <515a4352.e5b6440a.215e.065f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00fb01ce2f4f$66d21950$34764bf0$@panix.com> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park anyways. I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 broke down and sy had to replace a wheel. But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on. People are just jealous because they can't do it! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 03:45:07 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:45:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi everyone, I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in line at 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but as I got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those who are blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from doing so. I just didn't get it. Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take her to an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think I would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long period of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it seems Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't see why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure though. Haven't tried it. Lol Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their dogs while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's an option. On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, > self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves > by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as > a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to > see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very > upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods > of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in > the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically > handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real > favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want > to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal > people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much > to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time > we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining > from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of > normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly > necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem > hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more > to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I > also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's > letter of recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 03:46:10 2013 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:46:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <001001ce2f45$0a497c00$1edc7400$@gmail.com> References: <00f301ce2e15$2e52c3d0$8af84b70$@gmail.com> <001001ce2f45$0a497c00$1edc7400$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Cindy, Thank you for bringing up a topic to get us all thinking about summer. It is definitely appreciated when April has fooled us into thinking that it is somehow still winter. I think it might just depend on the set up of the ride. In some cases, you may wish to leave the cane behind, while on other rides you may wish to have it with you. For example, if you are just lounging around on an inner tube in the lazy river, you may wish to leave your cane off to the side while enjoying this relaxing ride. However, in terns of the more traditional water slide where you just lay down and slide down the ride, here is what I would do. I would use a Telescopic cane with some kind of loop on the top of the cane. When it came to my turn for the ride, I would Telescopic the cane and place the loop around one of my wrists or forearms. I would then place the cane up against my chest with the top of the cane at my belly button and the tip of the cane pointed at my chin. I suppose you could do it the other way around, but I personally would feel more comfortable doing it this way to ensure that the cane does not uncollapse during the ride. I would then criss cross my arms over the cane across my chest to keep the cane in place while going down the ride. I know others have suggested using a belt loop to keep the cane at your side while going down the ride, but I am honestly not quite sure how safe this would be. I would be concerned about the cane getting stuck on the side of the ride or creating a drag slowing down how fast you go through the ride. When I went to the water park as a kid, they made everyone criss cross their arms over their chest as well as cross their legs when going down the more traditional water slides. Therefore, this would just seem to be the most logical thing to do with a cane when going down these types of water slides. Granted, I have never used a cane at a water park, but if I did, this is most likely what I would do. Anyway, I hope this helps, and I hope you enjoy your time at the water park! Elizabeth From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:05:14 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:05:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515a5927.a3c9440a.2d28.18f3@mx.google.com> Yeah that's how it works at most parks but at Magic Mountain, depending on who's the operator, I can sometimes to ide multiple somes like the time I rode X2 32 times in one day because someone I know talked to the manager for X2 and told him how I'm a coaster critic and I'm trying to break the record of 36 or more times. But the park closed so I almost came to 36 but only made it to 32. I'll just have to try it at the next coaster party in Sesptember where they have Exclusive Ride Time. ----- Original Message ----- From: Suzanne Germano wrote: So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40as u.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:05:18 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:05:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515a592b.a3c9440a.2d28.18f9@mx.google.com> They also let me on because they said it's not fair to mao the dog wait that long because the dog doesn't understand the concept of waiting your turn. The pass wasn't as much as Flash pass. ----- Original Message ----- From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park anyways. I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 broke down and sy had to replace a wheel. But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on. People are just jealous because they can't do it! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:05:21 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:05:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised for more than an hour inr 2. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? Interesting. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Sophie, I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. I know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of "social" things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same place. Waterslides and things are different though, obviously. Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with a holster. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi everyone, This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. My cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2 %40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:05:24 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:05:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines Message-ID: <515a5930.a3c9440a.2d28.1900@mx.google.com> My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie McGinnity wrote: Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mail.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 04:21:37 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 00:21:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Do you take the time and a half on tests? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Lines Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:21:43 2013 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:21:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Article: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help the blind navigate, CNet News, April 1, 2013 Message-ID: <000e01ce2f59$965ec0b0$c31c4210$@gmail.com> Link: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57577323-76/audio-based-virtual-gaming-aim s-to-help-the-blind-navigate/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title Text: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help the blind navigate Using only audio-based cues within the context of a video game metaphor, blind users in a study out of Harvard are able to explore a building's layout. Elizabeth Armstrong Moore Blind players were better able to navigate the building in real life than their counterparts who'd been introduced to it by walking through it. (Credit: Journal of Visualized Experiments) A video game that uses audio cues and computer-generated building layouts has proven to be better at improving a blind person's spatial awareness of that place than does actually walking them through it, according to new research out of Harvard Medical School and the Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary. The findings could have implications for how visually impaired people -- and possibly those without impairments -- best learn to navigate unknown territory. "It is a tool to build a map of a place you have never been to before," Lotfi Merabet, the neuroscientist whose team developed the software used in the study (which appears in the Journal of Visualized Experiments), told Reuters. "The video game not only allows you to build a map in your mind, it allows you to interact with it mentally in a way that you wouldn't be able to if you were taught explicitly by walking through it." Merabet sees the video game as an important step toward revolutionizing assisted tech for the visually impaired, of which there are some 285 million globally. His team tested the game on teens to 45-year-olds who were either congenitally blind or had lost their sight. Some participants played the game, using audio cues to find hidden jewels in a building that in real life is a center for the blind in Newton, Mass. There was an added incentive: They had to remove those jewels from the building without being caught by, you guessed it, monsters lurking in dark corners. Other participants got to actually walk the building itself to learn the lay of the land. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:26:05 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:26:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > Do you take the time and a half on tests? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could > cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a > choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end > when > I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never > figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in > psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever > I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it > made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was > very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods > of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the > sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the > lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist > on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my > fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have > little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, > we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what > we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a > piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that > it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really > needed, > I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this > same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax > deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes > and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel > good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights > sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides > without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > treatment > by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request > unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of > recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > legitimate > reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 04:35:15 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 00:35:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000201ce2e92$4eb9deb0$ec2d9c10$@gmail.com> I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast on a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated in the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No but seriously, I use any tool available to me. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Justin, In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > Do you take the time and a half on tests? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > understand why it bothers me (and many of > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's > letter of recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:41:32 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 00:41:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <515a5927.a3c9440a.2d28.18f3@mx.google.com> References: <515a5927.a3c9440a.2d28.18f3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I really like Elizabeth's suggestion, and remember having followed that arms-folded procedure before myself. It would be a great way to make sure your cane stayed where you want it to and should work really well. The six flags thing is interesting; I went to the now shut-down Kentucky Kingdom as a kid and we had more issues there than at the much larger parks like Disney or Universal. I didn't have a cane at the time, but back then since I had recently had some surgeries my eyes were really sensitive to changes in light and things that popped out at me. My parents would ask some of the ride operators about what might happen in a ride if they couldn't see it for themselves, and when they would explain why they were asking sometimes the ride operators got flustered, as if they didn't quite know what to do or how to answer my parent's question. We went to Disney a year later, my parents still asked some of the same questions so that I wouldn't get freaked out, and the response there was, "Well, you guys can try it once and if she doesn't like it there are plenty of other rides she could go to. She might really like it though," and they'd say, "It's going to get really dark in there," or "you might feel some things flying around your feet because in the ride they're supposed to be snakes, but they're really just little bits of popped balloons," to make sure I wouldn't freak out just because I couldn't see something the other kids could. They seemed much more positive and encouraging to my parents, and they liked how the Disney people really tried to help me enjoy the park. Kirt, as you already have been told you're right on. I've learned not to take those sorts of accomodations; actually, my parents said that if we want equality it means not just fighting for it when it isn't there, but also knowing what accomodations are necessary and what are not. If you want to really think about it, I think it would come down to why she bought the pass though; it sounds like she does try to set goals for how many times she can ride things and meet them, which plenty of sighted people do. (I know a girl from school who's familly keeps track, and she's ridden over 700 so far but she uses get ahead passes to do this). If she bought it because she has her dog then that is another thing entirely though and I agree with you. I also side with Mike on the idea that taking a dog to an amusement park is probably not the best idea, (aside from bringing the dog out in the heat all day and leaving him with random strangers who know nothing about guide dogs, no matter if they say they kept people from petting him or doing anything they shouldn't, it's also a lot more complicated than just taking a cane. I could be wrong here of course, but don't most guide dog schools actually train their dogs to be able to stay on their own for a few hours? I know if my dogs who are just family pets couldn't do this my family probably be nuts; I know we were when they were puppies and we'd come home from just going out to dinner to find things chewed up, and we're all glad that they can withstand the family being gon at work and school or going out on the nights or weekends now. I realize that the bond between a guide dog and handler is a little different, but surely the school would realize there are times, like when going to amusement parks, when it would be more practical to leave the dog at home and use a cane. Mike: Yep, as against NFB principles as that is, I'm sure feigning outrage at being given a charitable handout like that would be pretty hard for a lot of people. :) On 4/2/13, Sarah wrote: > Yeah that's how it works at most parks but at Magic Mountain, > depending on who's the operator, I can sometimes to ide multiple > somes like the time I rode X2 32 times in one day because someone > I know talked to the manager for X2 and told him how I'm a > coaster critic and I'm trying to break the record of 36 or more > times. But the park closed so I almost came to 36 but only made > it to 32. I'll just have to try it at the next coaster party in > Sesptember where they have Exclusive Ride Time. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Suzanne Germano To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:25:11 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane > but go to > guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the > exit. You > have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every > ride you can > go up the exit and not wait in line. > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum > wrote: > > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a > cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the > dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it > while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 > hours like > everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog > user than > to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have > a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I > went twice > as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents > also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister > was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not > get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were > with me the > entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. > When I went > again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the > Disney > staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it > with me or > holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even > on water > rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean > rides which > start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding > cane you can > secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through > the cane > and > the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It > won't flop > around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea > sounds > good, > although some park personelle at other amusement parks get > worried about > it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems > with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with > the cane > too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney > for the > second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone > if I was > traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds > of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up > and to meet > people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no > problem, but I'll > confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or > folding > cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or > big rides > like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to > the ride > attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those > rides usually > start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful > bits I could > glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over > the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I > need to buy > another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked > mine for the > year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not > as my > primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding > cane with > a > holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme > parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on > the exit > side > of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are > such that you > get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk > away, from the > place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that > it would be > a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for > this, because > I > know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be > annoying, > because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to > these shoe > holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water > rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40as > u.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:43:37 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:43:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sarah, I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training center.) And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: > i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out > when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. > Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised > for more than an hour inr 2. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the > uncomfortable > hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park > anyways. > I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 > broke down > and sy had to replace a wheel. > But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. > It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate > boarding > pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the > operator if they > don't know me already, and they let me on. > People are just jealous because they can't do it! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just > said, so I'll > do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is > different, so > I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra > perk and > cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other > disability or > legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so > farbeit from me > to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and > I feel > very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line > with > everybody else, you should. > Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've > caved in to > family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I > don't always > measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe > very > passionately that we should not take "accommodation" > where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, > and it > sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines > before (if > I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. > That's > my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly > skipped in > line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), > but > accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real > need. > We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage > of things > that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, > if we aren't > careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. > Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, > isn't > entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we > _have_ to have > it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal > responsibility. > Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger > problems we > face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept > cheerfully (or > at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement > parks. I > think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay > to cut in > line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative > of a far, > far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that > we are > entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We > wouldn't > phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary > extended time for > assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is > unnecessary), > demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for > us, begging > rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, > yes, > cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're > really saying? > Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a > cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the > dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it > while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 > hours like > everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog > user than > to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have > a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I > went twice > as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents > also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my > sister > was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents > and not > get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were > with me the > entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. > When I went > again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the > Disney > staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it > with me or > holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on > water > rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean > rides which > start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding > cane you can > secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through > the cane > and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. > It won't > flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster > idea sounds > good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks > get worried > about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any > problems with > getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with > the cane > too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the > second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone > if I was > traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds > of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up > and to meet > people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no > problem, but I'll > confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or folding > cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or > big rides > like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the > ride > attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those > rides usually > start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful > bits I could > glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over > the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I > need to buy > another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine > for the > year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not > as my > primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding > cane with > a holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme > parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the > exit > side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides > are such > that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a > walk away, > from the place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that > it would be > a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for > this, because > I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just > be > annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me > back to > these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water > rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:47:44 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:47:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have only used time extensions when I was either using tactile diagrams or when I got a late start on a test because of a technology problem. In the former case, with the tactile diagrams, I don't think the extra time helped my test performance very much. I tended to spend the extra time agonizing over questions when I couldn't understand the tactile diagrams, and would just take longer to guess the wrong answer. If I could have done it over again I would have either asked for more guided practice reading the tactile diagrams or just asked for verbal descriptions instead. In high school geometry I not only got extra time, but my teacher sometimes allowed me to "make up" test points by re-taking the test orally without the picture questions. I ended up getting an A in that class and in hindsight, I think I deserved a B and should have been given one. While my mathematical understanding of geometry was very good, I had a clear struggle with interpreting tactile diagrams and that's something that they should have tried to address instead of just band-Aiding it with extra time and extra credit points. If I'd been given a B or even a C based on the points I earned, tactile diagram training might have been put on my IEP. True, we don't usually encounter tactile pictures in everyday life, but on standardized math tests that's often the only option, and I believe that my math SAT and GRE scores could have been higher if I had been forced to practice reading those diagrams in a more systematic way. Extra time on those tests didn't help me much at all. (I eventually worked on this with a GRE tutor and I did improve a little bit, but it was slow going and perhaps if I'd done it in middle or high school it would have been easier). I think the Band-Aid issue is even worse when extra time is given to people with slow Braille reading speeds without any attention to training faster reading. Since I learned Braille in preschool, I never needed extended time for verbal tests or math tests not involving diagrams, and my TVI and teachers always praised how fast I was. It is sad that my finishing the tests at a typical speed has to be such a surprise just because I use Braille. As I have stated here before, I think that time extensions for students in K-12 education have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, but I think it's really important that any time extensions be coupled with individualized training in whatever skill the student is struggling with enough to need the time extension. Of course, in today's world of overworked TVI's, that is unlikely to actually happen. I don't take tests anymore since I'm all-but-dissertation now, but if I did I think I'd only use the extra time if I got a late start on the test because of a technology issue or if I was working with a reader and had to go over answer choices multiple times, which does inherently take up more time than reading the answers independently in Braille or print. Arielle On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Justin, > In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in > hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient > with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely > different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when > inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to > be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used > with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time > and a half" on the job. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Hi all, >> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >> could >> cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a >> choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end >> when >> I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could >> never >> figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in >> psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many >> of >> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >> whenever >> I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it >> made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which >> was >> very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long >> periods >> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the >> sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle >> the >> lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I >> insist >> on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and >> my >> fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >> little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >> accommodation, >> we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. >> what >> we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like >> a >> piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that >> it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really >> needed, >> I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For >> this >> same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax >> deduction. >> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >> taxes >> and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel >> good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights >> sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides >> without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >> treatment >> by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request >> unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of >> recommendation. >> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> legitimate >> reason to not wait in lines. >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 04:56:13 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 00:56:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000a01ce2e95$3cdf3930$b69dab90$@gmail.com> All my tests are multiple choice. I was told specifically to slow down by the professor especially on the computer. It's just his style. He's rooting of me, so it's good. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines I have only used time extensions when I was either using tactile diagrams or when I got a late start on a test because of a technology problem. In the former case, with the tactile diagrams, I don't think the extra time helped my test performance very much. I tended to spend the extra time agonizing over questions when I couldn't understand the tactile diagrams, and would just take longer to guess the wrong answer. If I could have done it over again I would have either asked for more guided practice reading the tactile diagrams or just asked for verbal descriptions instead. In high school geometry I not only got extra time, but my teacher sometimes allowed me to "make up" test points by re-taking the test orally without the picture questions. I ended up getting an A in that class and in hindsight, I think I deserved a B and should have been given one. While my mathematical understanding of geometry was very good, I had a clear struggle with interpreting tactile diagrams and that's something that they should have tried to address instead of just band-Aiding it with extra time and extra credit points. If I'd been given a B or even a C based on the points I earned, tactile diagram training might have been put on my IEP. True, we don't usually encounter tactile pictures in everyday life, but on standardized math tests that's often the only option, and I believe that my math SAT and GRE scores could have been higher if I had been forced to practice reading those diagrams in a more systematic way. Extra time on those tests didn't help me much at all. (I eventually worked on this with a GRE tutor and I did improve a little bit, but it was slow going and perhaps if I'd done it in middle or high school it would have been easier). I think the Band-Aid issue is even worse when extra time is given to people with slow Braille reading speeds without any attention to training faster reading. Since I learned Braille in preschool, I never needed extended time for verbal tests or math tests not involving diagrams, and my TVI and teachers always praised how fast I was. It is sad that my finishing the tests at a typical speed has to be such a surprise just because I use Braille. As I have stated here before, I think that time extensions for students in K-12 education have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, but I think it's really important that any time extensions be coupled with individualized training in whatever skill the student is struggling with enough to need the time extension. Of course, in today's world of overworked TVI's, that is unlikely to actually happen. I don't take tests anymore since I'm all-but-dissertation now, but if I did I think I'd only use the extra time if I got a late start on the test because of a technology issue or if I was working with a reader and had to go over answer choices multiple times, which does inherently take up more time than reading the answers independently in Braille or print. Arielle On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Justin, > In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in > hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient > with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely > different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when > inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to > be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used > with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time > and a half" on the job. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Hi all, >> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up >> my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that >> we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >> learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I >> think I understand why it bothers me (and many of >> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >> the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >> person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >> standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >> uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >> line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >> blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >> little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >> accommodation vs. >> what >> we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation >> like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough >> benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation >> isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to >> gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off >> blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message >> to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >> professor's letter of recommendation. >> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 04:56:58 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 00:56:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Cane, dog, what works. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Sarah, I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training center.) And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: > i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out > when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. > Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised > for more than an hour inr 2. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the > uncomfortable > hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park > anyways. > I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 > broke down > and sy had to replace a wheel. > But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. > It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate > boarding > pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the > operator if they > don't know me already, and they let me on. > People are just jealous because they can't do it! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just > said, so I'll > do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is > different, so > I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra > perk and > cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other > disability or > legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so > farbeit from me > to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and > I feel > very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line > with > everybody else, you should. > Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've > caved in to > family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I > don't always > measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe > very > passionately that we should not take "accommodation" > where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, > and it > sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines > before (if > I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. > That's > my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly > skipped in > line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), > but > accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real > need. > We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage > of things > that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, > if we aren't > careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. > Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, > isn't > entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we > _have_ to have > it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal > responsibility. > Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger > problems we > face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept > cheerfully (or > at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement > parks. I > think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay > to cut in > line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative > of a far, > far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that > we are > entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We > wouldn't > phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary > extended time for > assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is > unnecessary), > demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for > us, begging > rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, > yes, > cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're > really saying? > Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a > cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the > dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it > while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 > hours like > everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog > user than > to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Sarah Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have > a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I > went twice > as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents > also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my > sister > was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents > and not > get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were > with me the > entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. > When I went > again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the > Disney > staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it > with me or > holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on > water > rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean > rides which > start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding > cane you can > secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through > the cane > and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. > It won't > flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster > idea sounds > good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks > get worried > about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any > problems with > getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with > the cane > too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the > second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone > if I was > traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds > of "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up > and to meet > people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no > problem, but I'll > confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or folding > cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or > big rides > like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the > ride > attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those > rides usually > start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful > bits I could > glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over > the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I > need to buy > another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine > for the > year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not > as my > primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding > cane with > a holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme > parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the > exit > side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides > are such > that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a > walk away, > from the place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that > it would be > a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for > this, because > I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just > be > annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me > back to > these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water > rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:54:52 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 00:54:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <000201ce2e92$4eb9deb0$ec2d9c10$@gmail.com> References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> <000201ce2e92$4eb9deb0$ec2d9c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, About testing, as well as the initial well-said point of waiting in lines, I agree with Kirt. I've set up agreements with my professors that I will only take extra time when it is really necessary; however, this is only for a small number of professors in subjects like statistics which involves lots of graphs, and music theory which is a little more time consuming because I have to do things in steps with a music notation program called Lime. I don't even have this conversation with my professors in subjects like English, History, or Psychology where I have no need to take the extra time. Taking accomodations should be considered carefully. If an accomodation helps level the playing field, like if without spare time you would have no chance of completing a math exam and would therefore have blank answers for tons of questions you simply didn't have time to get to, then that is reasonable; but when the teacher gives a fifty question quiz that is all text-based and you and your classmates have an hour to do it, there is no reason to ask for extended time unless you're trying to make up for a lack of studying, which is no grounds for asking for an accomodation based on your blindness. In the latter case, assuming you have assistive technology to take the test on and you have an accessible file, the playing field has been perfectly leveled for you. Actually, I've found that because it has been leveled and I have a computer to take tests on rather than pencil and paper, I actually finish tests earlier than most of my classmates, sometimes as much as completing a history midterm in half a class period when everyone was given the full time. On 4/1/13, justin williams wrote: > I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast > on > a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated > in > the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No but > seriously, I use any tool available to me. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Justin, > In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in > hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient with > braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely different > subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual > information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented tactally > or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has been > said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Hi all, >> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >> understand why it bothers me (and many of >> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >> the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >> person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >> standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >> uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >> line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >> blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little >> to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >> accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. >> If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it >> will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >> an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >> than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >> not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >> letter of recommendation. >> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> mail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:55:43 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:55:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, I don't know your situation, so I can't really say you're right or wrong. However, I can say that taking extra time in high school, at least for me, gave me the delusion that my skills were at the level they needed to be and that I could rely on special priviliges to get me by. I can tell you that that attitude, which I fostered but which was certainly reinforced by me taking extra time every chance I possibly could, did me a real disservice once I started college and, all of a sudden, I could see that my abilities weren't all that I had convinced myself they were. In my mind, although we should of course use the tools at our disposal, we should handle them with care, lest they become double-edged swords and end up hurting us more than they help. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I have only used time extensions when I was either using tactile > diagrams or when I got a late start on a test because of a technology > problem. In the former case, with the tactile diagrams, I don't think > the extra time helped my test performance very much. I tended to spend > the extra time agonizing over questions when I couldn't understand the > tactile diagrams, and would just take longer to guess the wrong > answer. If I could have done it over again I would have either asked > for more guided practice reading the tactile diagrams or just asked > for verbal descriptions instead. In high school geometry I not only > got extra time, but my teacher sometimes allowed me to "make up" test > points by re-taking the test orally without the picture questions. I > ended up getting an A in that class and in hindsight, I think I > deserved a B and should have been given one. While my mathematical > understanding of geometry was very good, I had a clear struggle with > interpreting tactile diagrams and that's something that they should > have tried to address instead of just band-Aiding it with extra time > and extra credit points. If I'd been given a B or even a C based on > the points I earned, tactile diagram training might have been put on > my IEP. True, we don't usually encounter tactile pictures in everyday > life, but on standardized math tests that's often the only option, and > I believe that my math SAT and GRE scores could have been higher if I > had been forced to practice reading those diagrams in a more > systematic way. Extra time on those tests didn't help me much at all. > (I eventually worked on this with a GRE tutor and I did improve a > little bit, but it was slow going and perhaps if I'd done it in middle > or high school it would have been easier). I think the Band-Aid issue > is even worse when extra time is given to people with slow Braille > reading speeds without any attention to training faster reading. Since > I learned Braille in preschool, I never needed extended time for > verbal tests or math tests not involving diagrams, and my TVI and > teachers always praised how fast I was. It is sad that my finishing > the tests at a typical speed has to be such a surprise just because I > use Braille. As I have stated here before, I think that time > extensions for students in K-12 education have to be handled on a > case-by-case basis, but I think it's really important that any time > extensions be coupled with individualized training in whatever skill > the student is struggling with enough to need the time extension. Of > course, in today's world of overworked TVI's, that is unlikely to > actually happen. > I don't take tests anymore since I'm all-but-dissertation now, but if > I did I think I'd only use the extra time if I got a late start on the > test because of a technology issue or if I was working with a reader > and had to go over answer choices multiple times, which does > inherently take up more time than reading the answers independently in > Braille or print. > Arielle > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >> hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >> with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when >> inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to >> be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used >> with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time >> and a half" on the job. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>> could >>> cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a >>> choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end >>> when >>> I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could >>> never >>> figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory >>> in >>> psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many >>> of >>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> whenever >>> I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, >>> it >>> made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which >>> was >>> very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long >>> periods >>> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in >>> the >>> sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle >>> the >>> lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I >>> insist >>> on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and >>> my >>> fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >>> little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> accommodation, >>> we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. >>> what >>> we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like >>> a >>> piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit >>> that >>> it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really >>> needed, >>> I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For >>> this >>> same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax >>> deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>> taxes >>> and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me >>> feel >>> good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights >>> sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides >>> without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment >>> by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request >>> unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of >>> recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate >>> reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:58:32 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 00:58:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <000a01ce2e95$3cdf3930$b69dab90$@gmail.com> References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> <000a01ce2e95$3cdf3930$b69dab90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm curious... were all the students given this instruction? On 4/1/13, justin williams wrote: > All my tests are multiple choice. I was told specifically to slow down > by > the professor especially on the computer. It's just his style. He's > rooting of me, so it's good. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:48 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > I have only used time extensions when I was either using tactile diagrams > or > when I got a late start on a test because of a technology problem. In the > former case, with the tactile diagrams, I don't think the extra time helped > my test performance very much. I tended to spend the extra time agonizing > over questions when I couldn't understand the tactile diagrams, and would > just take longer to guess the wrong answer. If I could have done it over > again I would have either asked for more guided practice reading the > tactile > diagrams or just asked for verbal descriptions instead. In high school > geometry I not only got extra time, but my teacher sometimes allowed me to > "make up" test points by re-taking the test orally without the picture > questions. I ended up getting an A in that class and in hindsight, I think > I > deserved a B and should have been given one. While my mathematical > understanding of geometry was very good, I had a clear struggle with > interpreting tactile diagrams and that's something that they should have > tried to address instead of just band-Aiding it with extra time and extra > credit points. If I'd been given a B or even a C based on the points I > earned, tactile diagram training might have been put on my IEP. True, we > don't usually encounter tactile pictures in everyday life, but on > standardized math tests that's often the only option, and I believe that my > math SAT and GRE scores could have been higher if I had been forced to > practice reading those diagrams in a more systematic way. Extra time on > those tests didn't help me much at all. > (I eventually worked on this with a GRE tutor and I did improve a little > bit, but it was slow going and perhaps if I'd done it in middle or high > school it would have been easier). I think the Band-Aid issue is even worse > when extra time is given to people with slow Braille reading speeds without > any attention to training faster reading. Since I learned Braille in > preschool, I never needed extended time for verbal tests or math tests not > involving diagrams, and my TVI and teachers always praised how fast I was. > It is sad that my finishing the tests at a typical speed has to be such a > surprise just because I use Braille. As I have stated here before, I think > that time extensions for students in K-12 education have to be handled on a > case-by-case basis, but I think it's really important that any time > extensions be coupled with individualized training in whatever skill the > student is struggling with enough to need the time extension. Of course, in > today's world of overworked TVI's, that is unlikely to actually happen. > I don't take tests anymore since I'm all-but-dissertation now, but if I did > I think I'd only use the extra time if I got a late start on the test > because of a technology issue or if I was working with a reader and had to > go over answer choices multiple times, which does inherently take up more > time than reading the answers independently in Braille or print. > Arielle > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >> hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >> with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when >> inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to >> be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used >> with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time >> and a half" on the job. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up >>> my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that >>> we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >>> learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I >>> think I understand why it bothers me (and many of >>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >>> the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >>> person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >>> standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >>> uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >>> line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >>> blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >>> little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>> accommodation vs. >>> what >>> we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation >>> like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough >>> benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation >>> isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to >>> gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off >>> blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message >>> to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >>> professor's letter of recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >>> gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:04:13 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:04:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> <000a01ce2e95$3cdf3930$b69dab90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01ce2e96$5ab00420$10100c60$@gmail.com> We had technology problems with blackboard and it sometimesslows down and what not. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:59 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines I'm curious... were all the students given this instruction? On 4/1/13, justin williams wrote: > All my tests are multiple choice. I was told specifically to slow down > by > the professor especially on the computer. It's just his style. He's > rooting of me, so it's good. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:48 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > I have only used time extensions when I was either using tactile diagrams > or > when I got a late start on a test because of a technology problem. In the > former case, with the tactile diagrams, I don't think the extra time helped > my test performance very much. I tended to spend the extra time agonizing > over questions when I couldn't understand the tactile diagrams, and would > just take longer to guess the wrong answer. If I could have done it over > again I would have either asked for more guided practice reading the > tactile > diagrams or just asked for verbal descriptions instead. In high school > geometry I not only got extra time, but my teacher sometimes allowed me to > "make up" test points by re-taking the test orally without the picture > questions. I ended up getting an A in that class and in hindsight, I think > I > deserved a B and should have been given one. While my mathematical > understanding of geometry was very good, I had a clear struggle with > interpreting tactile diagrams and that's something that they should have > tried to address instead of just band-Aiding it with extra time and extra > credit points. If I'd been given a B or even a C based on the points I > earned, tactile diagram training might have been put on my IEP. True, we > don't usually encounter tactile pictures in everyday life, but on > standardized math tests that's often the only option, and I believe that my > math SAT and GRE scores could have been higher if I had been forced to > practice reading those diagrams in a more systematic way. Extra time on > those tests didn't help me much at all. > (I eventually worked on this with a GRE tutor and I did improve a little > bit, but it was slow going and perhaps if I'd done it in middle or high > school it would have been easier). I think the Band-Aid issue is even worse > when extra time is given to people with slow Braille reading speeds without > any attention to training faster reading. Since I learned Braille in > preschool, I never needed extended time for verbal tests or math tests not > involving diagrams, and my TVI and teachers always praised how fast I was. > It is sad that my finishing the tests at a typical speed has to be such a > surprise just because I use Braille. As I have stated here before, I think > that time extensions for students in K-12 education have to be handled on a > case-by-case basis, but I think it's really important that any time > extensions be coupled with individualized training in whatever skill the > student is struggling with enough to need the time extension. Of course, in > today's world of overworked TVI's, that is unlikely to actually happen. > I don't take tests anymore since I'm all-but-dissertation now, but if I did > I think I'd only use the extra time if I got a late start on the test > because of a technology issue or if I was working with a reader and had to > go over answer choices multiple times, which does inherently take up more > time than reading the answers independently in Braille or print. > Arielle > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >> hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >> with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when >> inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to >> be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used >> with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time >> and a half" on the job. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up >>> my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that >>> we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >>> learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I >>> think I understand why it bothers me (and many of >>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >>> the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >>> person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >>> standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >>> uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >>> line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >>> blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >>> little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>> accommodation vs. >>> what >>> we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation >>> like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough >>> benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation >>> isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to >>> gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off >>> blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message >>> to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >>> professor's letter of recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >>> gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 05:03:57 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:03:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: <001301ce2f48$907daff0$b1790fd0$@gmail.com> References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid> <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> <001301ce2f48$907daff0$b1790fd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Me neither; I love those. On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > And I haven't had those problems with a Chris Park cane with a metal tip. > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 5:12 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > Chris: his canes are too fragile! > His folding cane that I bought, last year didn't last long, because when I > folded it up, after I got it, and tried to unfold it to go to my next > session, the stupid thing was already messed up, and one of the joints was > broken. > His straight canes are a disaster! > The tips come off, way too easy! > I tripped, on my way back from Denny's, and when I picked up my cane, when > I > got back, the tip was gone! > I haven't had those problems with my Ambutech cane! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Chris Nusbaum > [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:22 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > I'd agree that it isn't good for PR, but I must say that he makes a good > cane. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:50 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > I met Chris Park at the 2012 convention! > He's into his canes, and he bad-mouths anyone and everyone that doesn't > order his stuff! > He's not a really nice man, unless you are using his products! > That's not a good P.R. move! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton > [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > Hi all, > > Chris Park's site is: > www.chrisparkdesign.com > > As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a > way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the > contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he > seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his > model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the > Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's > totally been worth it. > > Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that > was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I > found > their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last > long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) > > > > On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after >> only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no >> longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it >> unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but >> unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack >> thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: >> >>> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >>> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >>> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >>> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that > either. >>>>> >>>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>>> old (pre >>>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>>> better? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you >>>>>>>>> check > out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the >>>>>>>>>>> opposite. >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:10 AM >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4cla >>>>>>>>>>> rinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester846 >>>>>>>>>> 2%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clar >>>>>>>>>> inet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith >>>>>>>>> 319%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462% >>>>>>>> 40pccua.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >>>>>>>> et104%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 >>>>>>> 9%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 05:04:37 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:04:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> <000201ce2e92$4eb9deb0$ec2d9c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I guess I only mean to sound slightly anal here, which is probably an improvement over my usual self. I don't know your situation, like I said, so I don't know if you're justified or not in taking extra time. Still, it's worth remembering that things aren't always right just because a professor (even a good professor) says so. If you were scoring well going fast, why slow down? Of course I have no idea about your specific classes or any of the other individual details; maybe your prof was right and you score much better when you aren't going quite so fast. Still, it's worth remembering that professors are fallible, just like everyone else, and they don't know blindness like we do. Just a thought. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > About testing, as well as the initial well-said point of waiting in > lines, I agree with Kirt. I've set up agreements with my professors > that I will only take extra time when it is really necessary; however, > this is only for a small number of professors in subjects like > statistics which involves lots of graphs, and music theory which is a > little more time consuming because I have to do things in steps with a > music notation program called Lime. I don't even have this > conversation with my professors in subjects like English, History, or > Psychology where I have no need to take the extra time. > > Taking accomodations should be considered carefully. If an > accomodation helps level the playing field, like if without spare time > you would have no chance of completing a math exam and would therefore > have blank answers for tons of questions you simply didn't have time > to get to, then that is reasonable; but when the teacher gives a fifty > question quiz that is all text-based and you and your classmates have > an hour to do it, there is no reason to ask for extended time unless > you're trying to make up for a lack of studying, which is no grounds > for asking for an accomodation based on your blindness. In the latter > case, assuming you have assistive technology to take the test on and > you have an accessible file, the playing field has been perfectly > leveled for you. Actually, I've found that because it has been > leveled and I have a computer to take tests on rather than pencil and > paper, I actually finish tests earlier than most of my classmates, > sometimes as much as completing a history midterm in half a class > period when everyone was given the full time. > > On 4/1/13, justin williams wrote: >> I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast >> on >> a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated >> in >> the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No >> but >> seriously, I use any tool available to me. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >> hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >> with >> braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> different >> subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual >> information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >> tactally >> or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has >> been >> said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >>> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>> understand why it bothers me (and many of >>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >>> the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >>> person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >>> standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >>> uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >>> line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >>> blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little >>> to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>> accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. >>> If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it >>> will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >>> an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >>> than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >>> not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >>> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >>> letter of recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> 0gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:14:01 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:14:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001ce2e97$b936aa70$2ba3ff50$@gmail.com> I don't remember high school well, but I've worked for several years in jobs which did not appreciate my skills. Give me a weapon and I will use it. My skills are uqite good. I train in the arts martial, but I would still use a weapon first. Never put down your tools. From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:56 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Justin, I don't know your situation, so I can't really say you're right or wrong. However, I can say that taking extra time in high school, at least for me, gave me the delusion that my skills were at the level they needed to be and that I could rely on special priviliges to get me by. I can tell you that that attitude, which I fostered but which was certainly reinforced by me taking extra time every chance I possibly could, did me a real disservice once I started college and, all of a sudden, I could see that my abilities weren't all that I had convinced myself they were. In my mind, although we should of course use the tools at our disposal, we should handle them with care, lest they become double-edged swords and end up hurting us more than they help. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I have only used time extensions when I was either using tactile > diagrams or when I got a late start on a test because of a technology > problem. In the former case, with the tactile diagrams, I don't think > the extra time helped my test performance very much. I tended to spend > the extra time agonizing over questions when I couldn't understand the > tactile diagrams, and would just take longer to guess the wrong > answer. If I could have done it over again I would have either asked > for more guided practice reading the tactile diagrams or just asked > for verbal descriptions instead. In high school geometry I not only > got extra time, but my teacher sometimes allowed me to "make up" test > points by re-taking the test orally without the picture questions. I > ended up getting an A in that class and in hindsight, I think I > deserved a B and should have been given one. While my mathematical > understanding of geometry was very good, I had a clear struggle with > interpreting tactile diagrams and that's something that they should > have tried to address instead of just band-Aiding it with extra time > and extra credit points. If I'd been given a B or even a C based on > the points I earned, tactile diagram training might have been put on > my IEP. True, we don't usually encounter tactile pictures in everyday > life, but on standardized math tests that's often the only option, and > I believe that my math SAT and GRE scores could have been higher if I > had been forced to practice reading those diagrams in a more > systematic way. Extra time on those tests didn't help me much at all. > (I eventually worked on this with a GRE tutor and I did improve a > little bit, but it was slow going and perhaps if I'd done it in middle > or high school it would have been easier). I think the Band-Aid issue > is even worse when extra time is given to people with slow Braille > reading speeds without any attention to training faster reading. Since > I learned Braille in preschool, I never needed extended time for > verbal tests or math tests not involving diagrams, and my TVI and > teachers always praised how fast I was. It is sad that my finishing > the tests at a typical speed has to be such a surprise just because I > use Braille. As I have stated here before, I think that time > extensions for students in K-12 education have to be handled on a > case-by-case basis, but I think it's really important that any time > extensions be coupled with individualized training in whatever skill > the student is struggling with enough to need the time extension. Of > course, in today's world of overworked TVI's, that is unlikely to > actually happen. > I don't take tests anymore since I'm all-but-dissertation now, but if > I did I think I'd only use the extra time if I got a late start on the > test because of a technology issue or if I was working with a reader > and had to go over answer choices multiple times, which does > inherently take up more time than reading the answers independently in > Braille or print. > Arielle > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; >> in hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as >> efficient with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is >> an entirely different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate >> only when inherently visual information like pictures and complex >> graphs need to be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it >> ought to be used with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you >> can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up >>> my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so >>> that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it >>> without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our >>> behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense >>> of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I >>> have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and >>> I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of >>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and >>> skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or >>> crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have >>> trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs >>> who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing >>> in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my >>> fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I >>> have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms >>> of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>> accommodation vs. >>> what >>> we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation >>> like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough >>> benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation >>> isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to >>> gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off >>> blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to >>> pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income >>> bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the >>> world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message >>> to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >>> professor's letter of recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:21:05 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:21:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> <000201ce2e92$4eb9deb0$ec2d9c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001201ce2e98$b6407f70$22c17e50$@gmail.com> It wouldn't go fast. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines I guess I only mean to sound slightly anal here, which is probably an improvement over my usual self. I don't know your situation, like I said, so I don't know if you're justified or not in taking extra time. Still, it's worth remembering that things aren't always right just because a professor (even a good professor) says so. If you were scoring well going fast, why slow down? Of course I have no idea about your specific classes or any of the other individual details; maybe your prof was right and you score much better when you aren't going quite so fast. Still, it's worth remembering that professors are fallible, just like everyone else, and they don't know blindness like we do. Just a thought. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > About testing, as well as the initial well-said point of waiting in > lines, I agree with Kirt. I've set up agreements with my professors > that I will only take extra time when it is really necessary; however, > this is only for a small number of professors in subjects like > statistics which involves lots of graphs, and music theory which is a > little more time consuming because I have to do things in steps with a > music notation program called Lime. I don't even have this > conversation with my professors in subjects like English, History, or > Psychology where I have no need to take the extra time. > > Taking accomodations should be considered carefully. If an > accomodation helps level the playing field, like if without spare time > you would have no chance of completing a math exam and would therefore > have blank answers for tons of questions you simply didn't have time > to get to, then that is reasonable; but when the teacher gives a fifty > question quiz that is all text-based and you and your classmates have > an hour to do it, there is no reason to ask for extended time unless > you're trying to make up for a lack of studying, which is no grounds > for asking for an accomodation based on your blindness. In the latter > case, assuming you have assistive technology to take the test on and > you have an accessible file, the playing field has been perfectly > leveled for you. Actually, I've found that because it has been > leveled and I have a computer to take tests on rather than pencil and > paper, I actually finish tests earlier than most of my classmates, > sometimes as much as completing a history midterm in half a class > period when everyone was given the full time. > > On 4/1/13, justin williams wrote: >> I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be >> fast on a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still >> got cheated in the end. I was one of the best agents in the call >> center. (Grin.) No but seriously, I use any tool available to me. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; >> in hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as >> efficient with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is >> an entirely different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate >> only when inherently visual information like pictures and complex >> graphs need to be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it >> ought to be used with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you >> can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up >>> my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so >>> that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it >>> without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our >>> behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense >>> of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I >>> have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and >>> I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of >>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and >>> skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or >>> crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have >>> trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs >>> who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing >>> in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my >>> fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I >>> have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms >>> of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>> accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. >>> If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, >>> it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But >>> if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to >>> lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I >>> also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to >>> pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income >>> bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message >>> to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >>> professor's letter of recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %4 >>> 0gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 05:23:55 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:23:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so who am I to judge? Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water slides. :) Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > Cane, dog, what works. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get > reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I > don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next > time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your > e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I > possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to > anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted > to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training > center.) > And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over > this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers > who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who > happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the > personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, > and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog > users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy > their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for > myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe > it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my > straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at > home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. > Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible > excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, > because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head > right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent > dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how > stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a > guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >> for more than an hour inr 2. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >> uncomfortable >> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >> anyways. >> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >> broke down >> and sy had to replace a wheel. >> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >> boarding >> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >> operator if they >> don't know me already, and they let me on. >> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >> said, so I'll >> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >> different, so >> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >> perk and >> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >> disability or >> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >> farbeit from me >> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >> I feel >> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >> with >> everybody else, you should. >> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >> caved in to >> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >> don't always >> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >> very >> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >> and it >> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >> before (if >> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >> That's >> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >> skipped in >> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >> but >> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >> need. >> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >> of things >> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >> if we aren't >> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >> isn't >> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >> _have_ to have >> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >> responsibility. >> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >> problems we >> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >> cheerfully (or >> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >> parks. I >> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >> to cut in >> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >> of a far, >> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >> we are >> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >> wouldn't >> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >> extended time for >> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >> unnecessary), >> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >> us, begging >> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >> yes, >> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >> really saying? >> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >> cane? >> Interesting. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >> dog very >> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >> while >> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >> hours like >> everyone else." >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> >> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >> user than >> to a cane user? >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah Meeks >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >> They are very >> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >> a dog. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >> went twice >> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >> parents >> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >> sister >> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >> and not >> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >> with me the >> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >> When I went >> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >> Disney >> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >> with me or >> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >> water >> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >> rides which >> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >> cane you can >> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >> the cane >> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >> It won't >> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >> idea sounds >> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >> get worried >> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >> problems with >> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >> >> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >> the cane >> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >> the >> second time and they were very accomodating. >> >> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >> if I was >> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >> I >> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >> of "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >> and to meet >> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >> problem, but I'll >> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> or folding >> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >> big rides >> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >> ride >> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >> rides usually >> start and end at the same place. >> Waterslides >> and things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >> bits I could >> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over >> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >> need to buy >> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >> for the >> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >> as my >> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >> cane with >> a holster. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Cindy >> Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >> parks, I >> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >> exit >> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >> are such >> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >> walk away, >> from the place where you get off of the ride. >> My >> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >> it would be >> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >> this, because >> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >> be >> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >> back to >> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >> >> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >> rides? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> ms2 >> %40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gm >> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:26:18 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:26:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401ce2e99$709378f0$51ba6ad0$@gmail.com> Don't believe in cutting lines just because. I can't speak to the dog issue as that I don't have one. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:56 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Justin, I don't know your situation, so I can't really say you're right or wrong. However, I can say that taking extra time in high school, at least for me, gave me the delusion that my skills were at the level they needed to be and that I could rely on special priviliges to get me by. I can tell you that that attitude, which I fostered but which was certainly reinforced by me taking extra time every chance I possibly could, did me a real disservice once I started college and, all of a sudden, I could see that my abilities weren't all that I had convinced myself they were. In my mind, although we should of course use the tools at our disposal, we should handle them with care, lest they become double-edged swords and end up hurting us more than they help. Best, Kirt On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I have only used time extensions when I was either using tactile > diagrams or when I got a late start on a test because of a technology > problem. In the former case, with the tactile diagrams, I don't think > the extra time helped my test performance very much. I tended to spend > the extra time agonizing over questions when I couldn't understand the > tactile diagrams, and would just take longer to guess the wrong > answer. If I could have done it over again I would have either asked > for more guided practice reading the tactile diagrams or just asked > for verbal descriptions instead. In high school geometry I not only > got extra time, but my teacher sometimes allowed me to "make up" test > points by re-taking the test orally without the picture questions. I > ended up getting an A in that class and in hindsight, I think I > deserved a B and should have been given one. While my mathematical > understanding of geometry was very good, I had a clear struggle with > interpreting tactile diagrams and that's something that they should > have tried to address instead of just band-Aiding it with extra time > and extra credit points. If I'd been given a B or even a C based on > the points I earned, tactile diagram training might have been put on > my IEP. True, we don't usually encounter tactile pictures in everyday > life, but on standardized math tests that's often the only option, and > I believe that my math SAT and GRE scores could have been higher if I > had been forced to practice reading those diagrams in a more > systematic way. Extra time on those tests didn't help me much at all. > (I eventually worked on this with a GRE tutor and I did improve a > little bit, but it was slow going and perhaps if I'd done it in middle > or high school it would have been easier). I think the Band-Aid issue > is even worse when extra time is given to people with slow Braille > reading speeds without any attention to training faster reading. Since > I learned Braille in preschool, I never needed extended time for > verbal tests or math tests not involving diagrams, and my TVI and > teachers always praised how fast I was. It is sad that my finishing > the tests at a typical speed has to be such a surprise just because I > use Braille. As I have stated here before, I think that time > extensions for students in K-12 education have to be handled on a > case-by-case basis, but I think it's really important that any time > extensions be coupled with individualized training in whatever skill > the student is struggling with enough to need the time extension. Of > course, in today's world of overworked TVI's, that is unlikely to > actually happen. > I don't take tests anymore since I'm all-but-dissertation now, but if > I did I think I'd only use the extra time if I got a late start on the > test because of a technology issue or if I was working with a reader > and had to go over answer choices multiple times, which does > inherently take up more time than reading the answers independently in > Braille or print. > Arielle > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >> hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >> with braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> different subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when >> inherently visual information like pictures and complex graphs need to >> be presented tactally or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used >> with care because, as has been said ad noseum, you can't get the "time >> and a half" on the job. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>> could >>> cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a >>> choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end >>> when >>> I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could >>> never >>> figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory >>> in >>> psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many >>> of >>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> whenever >>> I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, >>> it >>> made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which >>> was >>> very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long >>> periods >>> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in >>> the >>> sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle >>> the >>> lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I >>> insist >>> on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and >>> my >>> fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >>> little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> accommodation, >>> we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. >>> what >>> we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like >>> a >>> piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit >>> that >>> it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really >>> needed, >>> I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For >>> this >>> same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax >>> deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>> taxes >>> and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me >>> feel >>> good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights >>> sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides >>> without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment >>> by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request >>> unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of >>> recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate >>> reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:28:24 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:28:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001601ce2e99$bbcc3780$3364a680$@gmail.com> Take your dog with you on the water ride right? Come on, he would enjoy it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Justin, Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so who am I to judge? Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water slides. :) Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > Cane, dog, what works. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get > reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I > don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next > time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your > e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I > possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to > anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted > to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training > center.) > And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over > this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers > who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who > happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the > personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, > and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog > users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy > their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for > myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe > it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my > straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at > home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. > Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible > excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, > because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head > right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent > dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how > stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a > guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out when >> I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised for >> more than an hour inr 2. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >> uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me >> at the park anyways. >> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 broke >> down and sy had to replace a wheel. >> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >> boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >> operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on. >> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just said, >> so I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >> different, so I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take >> that extra perk and cut through line; for all I know, there really is >> some other disability or legitimate need for that accommodation with >> some of us, so farbeit from me to condemn everyone wholesale for >> making that choice. Still, and I feel very strongly about this, if >> you are capable of waiting in line with everybody else, you should. >> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've caved in >> to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >> don't always measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless >> believe very passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, and >> it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >> before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >> That's >> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly skipped >> in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >> but accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >> need. >> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage of >> things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it >> can, if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message about >> blindness. >> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >> isn't entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >> _have_ to have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have >> equal responsibility. >> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger problems >> we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >> cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to >> amusement parks. I think, for many blind people, the attitude which >> says it's okay to cut in line even though we could wait like everyone >> else is indicative of a far, far larger problem. I am, of course, >> referring to the idea that we are entitled to special treatment and >> superior, not equal access. We wouldn't phrase it that way...but >> when we're asking for unnecessary extended time for assignments (I'm >> not implying that all extended time is unnecessary), demanding the >> right to a dedicated person to take our notes for us, begging rehab >> for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, yes, >> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're really >> saying? >> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >> cane? >> Interesting. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog >> very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >> while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >> hours like everyone else." >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> >> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >> user than to a cane user? >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah >> Meeks >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >> They are very >> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a >> dog. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went >> twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and >> my parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me >> and my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with >> our parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal >> direction and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a >> major need for a cane. >> When I went >> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >> Disney staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >> with me or holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, >> even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the >> Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at another. If you >> have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the loop and then >> put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just let it hang >> as you hold onto something. >> It won't >> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea >> sounds good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >> get worried about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have >> any problems with getting the ride people to bring you your cane at >> the ride exit. >> >> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the >> cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney >> for the second time and they were very accomodating. >> >> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I >> was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >> I >> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of >> "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and >> to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, >> but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A >> collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On >> rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just given >> my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the >> ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at the same >> place. >> Waterslides >> and things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I >> could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the >> motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I >> actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it >> sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for >> the help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane >> with a holster. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >> Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, >> I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >> exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >> are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often >> quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. >> My >> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it >> would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would >> just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide >> me back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the >> ride. >> >> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> ms2 >> %40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gm >> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:28:51 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:28:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801ce2e99$cbc59280$6350b780$@gmail.com> I' a cane user too kurt. I've seen the same thing you have. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Justin, Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so who am I to judge? Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water slides. :) Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > Cane, dog, what works. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get > reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I > don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next > time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your > e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I > possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to > anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted > to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training > center.) > And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over > this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers > who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who > happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the > personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, > and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog > users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy > their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for > myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe > it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my > straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at > home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. > Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible > excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, > because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head > right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent > dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how > stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a > guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >> for more than an hour inr 2. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >> uncomfortable >> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >> anyways. >> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >> broke down >> and sy had to replace a wheel. >> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >> boarding >> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >> operator if they >> don't know me already, and they let me on. >> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >> said, so I'll >> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >> different, so >> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >> perk and >> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >> disability or >> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >> farbeit from me >> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >> I feel >> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >> with >> everybody else, you should. >> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >> caved in to >> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >> don't always >> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >> very >> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >> and it >> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >> before (if >> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >> That's >> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >> skipped in >> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >> but >> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >> need. >> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >> of things >> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >> if we aren't >> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >> isn't >> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >> _have_ to have >> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >> responsibility. >> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >> problems we >> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >> cheerfully (or >> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >> parks. I >> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >> to cut in >> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >> of a far, >> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >> we are >> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >> wouldn't >> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >> extended time for >> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >> unnecessary), >> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >> us, begging >> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >> yes, >> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >> really saying? >> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >> cane? >> Interesting. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >> dog very >> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >> while >> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >> hours like >> everyone else." >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> >> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >> user than >> to a cane user? >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah Meeks >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >> They are very >> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >> a dog. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >> went twice >> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >> parents >> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >> sister >> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >> and not >> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >> with me the >> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >> When I went >> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >> Disney >> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >> with me or >> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >> water >> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >> rides which >> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >> cane you can >> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >> the cane >> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >> It won't >> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >> idea sounds >> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >> get worried >> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >> problems with >> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >> >> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >> the cane >> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >> the >> second time and they were very accomodating. >> >> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >> if I was >> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >> I >> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >> of "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >> and to meet >> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >> problem, but I'll >> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> or folding >> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >> big rides >> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >> ride >> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >> rides usually >> start and end at the same place. >> Waterslides >> and things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >> bits I could >> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over >> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >> need to buy >> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >> for the >> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >> as my >> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >> cane with >> a holster. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Cindy >> Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >> parks, I >> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >> exit >> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >> are such >> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >> walk away, >> from the place where you get off of the ride. >> My >> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >> it would be >> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >> this, because >> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >> be >> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >> back to >> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >> >> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >> rides? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> ms2 >> %40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gm >> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:34:11 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:34:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01ce2e9a$8ace9a00$a06bce00$@gmail.com> You understand that everyone's situation is different. Your alright with me man. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Justin, Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so who am I to judge? Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water slides. :) Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > Cane, dog, what works. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get > reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I > don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next > time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your > e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I > possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to > anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted > to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training > center.) > And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over > this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers > who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who > happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the > personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, > and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog > users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy > their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for > myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe > it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my > straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at > home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. > Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible > excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, > because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head > right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent > dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how > stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a > guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >> for more than an hour inr 2. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >> uncomfortable >> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >> anyways. >> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >> broke down >> and sy had to replace a wheel. >> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >> boarding >> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >> operator if they >> don't know me already, and they let me on. >> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >> said, so I'll >> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >> different, so >> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >> perk and >> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >> disability or >> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >> farbeit from me >> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >> I feel >> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >> with >> everybody else, you should. >> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >> caved in to >> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >> don't always >> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >> very >> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >> and it >> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >> before (if >> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >> That's >> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >> skipped in >> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >> but >> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >> need. >> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >> of things >> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >> if we aren't >> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >> isn't >> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >> _have_ to have >> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >> responsibility. >> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >> problems we >> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >> cheerfully (or >> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >> parks. I >> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >> to cut in >> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >> of a far, >> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >> we are >> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >> wouldn't >> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >> extended time for >> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >> unnecessary), >> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >> us, begging >> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >> yes, >> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >> really saying? >> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >> cane? >> Interesting. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >> dog very >> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >> while >> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >> hours like >> everyone else." >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> >> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >> user than >> to a cane user? >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Sarah Meeks >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >> They are very >> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >> a dog. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >> went twice >> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >> parents >> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >> sister >> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >> and not >> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >> with me the >> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >> When I went >> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >> Disney >> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >> with me or >> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >> water >> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >> rides which >> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >> cane you can >> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >> the cane >> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >> It won't >> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >> idea sounds >> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >> get worried >> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >> problems with >> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >> >> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >> the cane >> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >> the >> second time and they were very accomodating. >> >> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >> if I was >> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >> I >> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >> of "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >> and to meet >> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >> problem, but I'll >> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> or folding >> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >> big rides >> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >> ride >> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >> rides usually >> start and end at the same place. >> Waterslides >> and things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >> bits I could >> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> myself over >> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >> need to buy >> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >> for the >> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >> as my >> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >> cane with >> a holster. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Cindy >> Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >> parks, I >> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >> exit >> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >> are such >> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >> walk away, >> from the place where you get off of the ride. >> My >> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >> it would be >> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >> this, because >> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >> be >> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >> back to >> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >> >> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >> rides? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> ms2 >> %40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gm >> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 05:32:54 2013 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 01:32:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books Message-ID: Hi All: So, I love to read. What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad app? I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I don't mind voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, or listen to an audiobook. Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to purchase a book on it can you read it using Jaws? There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either Bookshare or BARD and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for only $2.99. What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the PC using Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a braille display but I currently don't have one. Thanks, Kerri From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:38:39 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001c01ce2e9b$2a1ceb70$7e56c250$@gmail.com> I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is accessible. They did a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you this was two years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for amazon books and anything else you bought. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books Hi All: So, I love to read. What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad app? I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I don't mind voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, or listen to an audiobook. Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to purchase a book on it can you read it using Jaws? There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either Bookshare or BARD and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for only $2.99. What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the PC using Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a braille display but I currently don't have one. Thanks, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Apr 2 10:55:21 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 03:55:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <000201ce2e92$4eb9deb0$ec2d9c10$@gmail.com> References: <002901ce2e90$67734920$3659db60$@gmail.com> <000201ce2e92$4eb9deb0$ec2d9c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130402035251.01db77c0@comcast.net> Good morning, It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, who cares? Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast on >a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated in >the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No but >seriously, I use any tool available to me. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > >Justin, > In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient with >braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely different >subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual >information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented tactally >or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has been >said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. > Best, >Kirt > >On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > > Do you take the time and a half on tests? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > > Silverman > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines > > > > Hi all, > > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my > > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we > > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior > > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame > > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned > > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > > understand why it bothers me (and many of > > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw > > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think > > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip > > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled > > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble > > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get > > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems > > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the > > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in > > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow > > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little > > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of > > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an > > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that > > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. > > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it > > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if > > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose > > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do > > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay > > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to > > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's > > letter of recommendation. > > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > > Arielle > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > 0gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > > mail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:30:06 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 06:30:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books Message-ID: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are really good. ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" References: <003f01ce2b4c$1b9595e0$52c0c1a0$@gmail.com> <000301ce2b5f$9d1723f0$d7456bd0$@gmail.com> <000f01ce2b63$1a5b70c0$4f125240$@gmail.com> <-1498599385532720274@unknownmsgid> <900738845560274744@unknownmsgid> <-7152629430158794237@unknownmsgid> <009301ce2e88$1c67fcd0$5537f670$@gmail.com> <001301ce2f48$907daff0$b1790fd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I only use ambutech canes. I'm sort of a cane snob that way. I am thinking of getting a telescopic cane, but they are kind of ouch on the pocketbook. I do love how portable they are. Jess Check out my blog. http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva Http:://Www.makemoneywithjessica.com On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Me neither; I love those. > > On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> And I haven't had those problems with a Chris Park cane with a metal tip. >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 5:12 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >> >> Chris: his canes are too fragile! >> His folding cane that I bought, last year didn't last long, because when I >> folded it up, after I got it, and tried to unfold it to go to my next >> session, the stupid thing was already messed up, and one of the joints was >> broken. >> His straight canes are a disaster! >> The tips come off, way too easy! >> I tripped, on my way back from Denny's, and when I picked up my cane, when >> I >> got back, the tip was gone! >> I haven't had those problems with my Ambutech cane! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Chris Nusbaum >> [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:22 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >> >> I'd agree that it isn't good for PR, but I must say that he makes a good >> cane. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:50 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >> >> I met Chris Park at the 2012 convention! >> He's into his canes, and he bad-mouths anyone and everyone that doesn't >> order his stuff! >> He's not a really nice man, unless you are using his products! >> That's not a good P.R. move! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton >> [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:07 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >> >> Hi all, >> >> Chris Park's site is: >> www.chrisparkdesign.com >> >> As we were saying earlier on the thread though, there unfortunately isn't a >> way to purchase through this site. You could try emailing him on the >> contact page and seeing if you could just go through him directly, but he >> seems to sell through NFB. Having had experience with both the NFB and his >> model of telescopic cane, I'd totally recommend going through the >> Independence Market and just requesting his model. In my experiences it's >> totally been worth it. >> >> Chris: Really? I didn't know Ambutech started making lighter models; that >> was why I started going with NFB for all my canes, although like you I >> found >> their folding ones had joint problems and some other issues and didn't last >> long. You'll have to share how that one feels when you get it. :) >> >> >> >> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>> Arielle, I agree. I got my NFB folding cane for Christmas, but after >>> only 2 months the joints are chipping to the point that I can no >>> longer fold it without having to do a lot of wiggling to get it >>> unfolded. I was very excited about this folding cane, but >>> unfortunately I have been disappointed by its performance, or lack >>> thereof. I now have an Ambutech Ultra Light folding cane on order. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >>> >>>> Could someone send the URL for the Chris Park site? I would really >>>> love to get a better-quality telescoping or folding cane than what >>>> I've gotten from NFB. Their straight canes are wonderful, but I have >>>> yet to be satisfied with any non-rigid cane from them. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/30/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: >>>>> You might also call the Independence Market at our national center. >>>>> The number is (410) 659-9314, option 4 from the main menu. >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> That is right, unless you clarify in the comment section the model >>>>>> you want. If you tell them you specifically want the Chris Park >>>>>> model in the comments they won't ignore that and you'll get what >>>>>> you want for your $35. The clarification might be there for people >>>>>> who don't know to do the comment thing, (which I'm assuming would >>>>>> be the majority of people), but they don't make it impossible for >>>>>> you to get what you want for your buck. Actually, my ability to >>>>>> see the pictures probably further complicated the issue; had I just >>>>>> gone off the cane type and commented that I wanted the Chris Park >>>>>> model from the start I would have saved myself some confusion, >>>>>> although I'm not sure many other people would have known to do that >> either. >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you been able to purchase directly from Chris Park's site? >>>>>> That was where I looked after the NFB store was confusing me and >>>>>> before I called, but I didn't see any links to the specific models >>>>>> or to checkout/purchase anything. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/13, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Right. So if you just order a type 7 cane from the NFB store, >>>>>>> there's no guarantee what you'll actually get when you spend your >>>>>>> $35? You might get Chris Park's model, but you might also get the >>>>>>> old (pre >>>>>>> 2010) model that most people universally seem to dislike? The >>>>>>> amusing thing here is that while Kaiti can check out the pictures, >>>>>>> other users of the store ... can't. So the NFB's lack of >>>>>>> clarification here makes perfect sense! Got it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, Chris Park has his own website. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.chrisparkdesign.com/sub_01_new.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brice, I guess what they do is they just classify the canes by type. >>>>>>>> E.G, all the 5 or 6 section telescopic canes are listed on the >>>>>>>> site as type 7. This type includes all the models that fit into >>>>>>>> that category, so when you buy one you might get any model >>>>>>>> depending on what they have in stock unless you specifically tell >>>>>>>> them you want a specific type, E.G. the Chris Park. That one is >>>>>>>> still the latest and greatest thing out there, so I guess we were >>>>>>>> both lucky to get it when we bought our canes. What got me into >>>>>>>> trouble looking through the search results was that I didn't >>>>>>>> remember the exact type, so I assumed that the Chris Park would >>>>>>>> have it's own little category in the search results, (I didn't >>>>>>>> buy my last cane either, so I wasn't familiar with how to get to >>>>>>>> it from previous experience). Looking at the picture for the >>>>>>>> type 7, it shows two different models of NFB canes, but neither >>>>>>>> of them were the Chris Park. I was looking for that distinct >>>>>>>> grip which is much bigger than a lot of the NFB models and didn't >>>>>>>> see it. Now we know. :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suppose every cane is different, Joshua, but I had >>>>>>>> significantly more collapses with my NFB telescopic cane I bought >>>>>>>> in 2009 than I have with the Chris Park model. I don't think you >>>>>>>> had the newest one; the collapse-resistant model just came out in >>>>>>>> December of 2011, so anything before that would be more >>>>>>>> collapse-prone. A lot of people, including myself, seem to >>>>>>>> really like this newer one. Different strokes for different >>>>>>>> folks, but don't base an opinion of an entire company over one >>>>>>>> cane from several years ago which has since been improved upon. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> Those Chris Parks canes are nothing but trouble! >>>>>>>>> Those were the ones that collapse too much! >>>>>>>>> His folding canes are awful too! >>>>>>>>> I got the telescoping cane in 2010, and I didn't like it. >>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Brice >>>>>>>>> Smith [brice.smith319 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:45 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm still a bit confused. Which model is the one listed on the >>>>>>>>> site now? Is the Chris Parks model now "old" and is there a >>>>>>>>> newer model out now? You and I both must Have bought his model >>>>>>>>> last year. Have they replaced it with something different? Even >>>>>>>>> better? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yeah, they're well worth checking into, or at least I think so. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I found out why I wasn't seeing it in the search results; The >>>>>>>>>> NFB site groups all types of canes together, but doesn't >>>>>>>>>> descriminate between the models. So, I was seeing pictures of >>>>>>>>>> the older canes because that's the type the new one still fits >>>>>>>>>> under, (5 or 6 section telescopic). The particular cane I got >>>>>>>>>> last time was made by Chris Parks, and I just got it because it >>>>>>>>>> was what they had in stock. >>>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>>> don't show it on the site, but if you know the particular model >>>>>>>>>> you want you can request it in the comments section when you >>>>>>>>>> check >> out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I want to look at the new ones. >>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>> Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Joshua, I didn't say that you said anything, I was merely >>>>>>>>>>> sharing my experiences. I've heard from several people that >>>>>>>>>>> those canes are thought to be indestructible, so it seemed >>>>>>>>>>> like it might have been a common misconception. >>>>>>>>>>> That is what is so improved about this model of the telescopic >>>>>>>>>>> cane, it doesn't collapse near as much as the old oones. I >>>>>>>>>>> rarely had to stop and fix mine. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 29, 2013, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti! >>>>>>>>>>>> I never said that the Ambutech canes were indestructable. >>>>>>>>>>>> I just wish that they'd make the telescopic canes more >>>>>>>>>>>> stirdy, so that they'll collapse, only when I want them to. >>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] on >>>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:02 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *the beginning of that was supposed to say that I'm the >>>>>>>>>>>> opposite. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the weird cut off. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> posite; telescopic canes last much longer for me than the >>>>>>>>>>>>> folding ones, I think because of the weight and because of >>>>>>>>>>>>> my pace. >>>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> why I prefer the NFB canes and will most likely avoid the >>>>>>>>>>>>> bulky folding ones. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The next time someone tells you an Ambutech cane, or an >>>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum one, is indestructable, don't necessarily buy it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the first week of school this year I was going out to a >>>>>>>>>>>>> campus event with some friends and because I had issues with >>>>>>>>>>>>> people stepping on and breaking my telescopic canes in high >>>>>>>>>>>>> school I chose to take my folding one from ambutech. It was >>>>>>>>>>>>> so heavy for me that when I stepped off the curb it went >>>>>>>>>>>>> down into a drainage grate. It must have gone right between >>>>>>>>>>>>> the bars because I didn't feel it hit anything or realize it >>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't on the ground, but I kept walking and tripped when I >>>>>>>>>>>>> felt that my cane wasn't coming with me. I dropped it and >>>>>>>>>>>>> when a friend of mine grabbed it and pulled it out of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> grate the bottom shaft was sliced open where the grate had >>>>>>>>>>>>> dug into it and it was bent at a 45 degree angle from where >>>>>>>>>>>>> it should have been. For a while I used a straight cane >>>>>>>>>>>>> that was kind of my old-faithful cane, (My O&M instructor >>>>>>>>>>>>> and I made it when I was in the 4th grade and I still had it >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a college freshman). It was a little short for me, but I >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't grow much after making it so it would have worked all >>>>>>>>>>>>> right till I could order a new one over Christmas break. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I was walking with friends, and the cane got >>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in a really big crack in the sidewalk. When we pulled >>>>>>>>>>>>> it out the tip was still wedged into the crack, but the >>>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the shaft was dented all over to the point where I >>>>>>>>>>>>> doubt another tip would be able to stay on it. (The kicker >>>>>>>>>>>>> was that this all happened within a month). Then I started >>>>>>>>>>>>> using the telescopic cane because I had no other choice, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> not only were people more conscious about avoiding stepping >>>>>>>>>>>>> on a white stick, but all my problems with grates and >>>>>>>>>>>>> sidewalk cracks magically went away. (and my wrist liked it >>>>>>>>>>>>> better too). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I should mention, is that I found out that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cane tips cost over $1.50, per tip! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those tips are small, unlike the tips you find on VR canes! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just charge 50 cents a tip? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:21 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought an NFB folding cane, and a straight cane from them! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had issues with the tip coming off of the straight cane, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the folding cane broke after the first day, because >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't stirdy enough! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a telescoping cane as well, and it would collapse >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when I didn't want it to, and it wouldn't collapse when I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> did! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ambutech, (on the other hand,) is awesome! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Their canes are stirdyer, and they may be bulky, but they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get the job done! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't imagine myself with a thinner cane, no matter what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Ambutech cane has lasted longer than my VR canes, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those NFB canes combined! From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Apr 2 11:51:02 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 06:51:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Article: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help the blind navigate, CNet News, April 1, 2013 In-Reply-To: <000e01ce2f59$965ec0b0$c31c4210$@gmail.com> References: <000e01ce2f59$965ec0b0$c31c4210$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2001EF19-637F-47CC-BCAF-D724EFF2D990@samobile.net> I have a strong suspicion that the videogame in another itself is not what necessarily responsible for increasing success of navigation. I think the video game activates some cognitive processes that traditional instruction does not. I suspect it's the same phenomenon that works instruction discovery. I don't know that for fact, but it's a gas. This message was typed in a hurry using Siri, so please forgive me in advance for grammatical errors. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:21 PM, "Humberto Avila" wrote: > Link: > http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57577323-76/audio-based-virtual-gaming-aim > s-to-help-the-blind-navigate/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title > > Text: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help the blind navigate > Using only audio-based cues within the context of a video game metaphor, > blind users in a study out of Harvard are able to explore a building's > layout. > Elizabeth Armstrong Moore > > Blind players were better able to navigate the building in real life than > their counterparts who'd been introduced to it by walking through it. > (Credit: Journal of Visualized Experiments) > A video game that uses audio cues and computer-generated building layouts > has proven to be better at improving a blind person's spatial awareness of > that place than does actually walking them through it, according to new > research out of Harvard Medical School and the Massachusetts Eye and Ear > Infirmary. > The findings could have implications for how visually impaired people -- and > possibly those without impairments -- best learn to navigate unknown > territory. > "It is a tool to build a map of a place you have never been to before," > Lotfi Merabet, the neuroscientist whose team developed the software used in > the study (which appears in the Journal of Visualized Experiments), told > Reuters. "The video game not only allows you to build a map in your mind, it > allows you to interact with it mentally in a way that you wouldn't be able > to if you were taught explicitly by walking through it." > Merabet sees the video game as an important step toward revolutionizing > assisted tech for the visually impaired, of which there are some 285 million > globally. > His team tested the game on teens to 45-year-olds who were either > congenitally blind or had lost their sight. Some participants played the > game, using audio cues to find hidden jewels in a building that in real life > is a center for the blind in Newton, Mass. There was an added incentive: > They had to remove those jewels from the building without being caught by, > you guessed it, monsters lurking in dark corners. Other participants got to > actually walk the building itself to learn the lay of the land. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 2 11:54:11 2013 From: jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net (Jessica Silva) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 04:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Lines Message-ID: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hello: Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. Jess Check out my blog: http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com ------------------------------ On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: >Good morning, > > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, >who cares? >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast on >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated in >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No but >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >>Justin, >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient with >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely different >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented tactally >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has been >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >> Best, >>Kirt >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> > Silverman >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >> > >> > Hi all, >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >> > letter of recommendation. >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> > Arielle >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> > 0gmail >> > .com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva2003%40sbcglobal.net From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 15:47:06 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 11:47:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Just a quick note, if you have aniDevice, another app is Voice Dream. You can download books and many other documents (including powerpoints) from Bookshare, Gutenberg, iTunes, DropBox, or the web browser. It will read it using your preferred voice, each of which costs $1.99 (and a very few cost $2.99). This is especially helpful if you have foreign language documents because Voice Dream has a plentitude of foreign voices from Spanish and French to Chinese and Japanese. The voices are wonderful, and have made listening to school documents much nicer for me, as well, of course, for books. I don't know much about reading e-books on the PC, but that's my little spill about a great app for the iDevices. Good luck, Jewel On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I > have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for > iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The > app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is > $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are > really good. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is > accessible. They did > a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you > this was two > years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for > amazon > books and anything else you bought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > Hi All: > > So, I love to read. > What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? > Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad > app? > I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I > don't mind > voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. > I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, > or listen to > an audiobook. > Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to > purchase a > book on it can you read it using Jaws? > There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either > Bookshare or BARD > and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for > only $2.99. > What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? > At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the > PC using > Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? > I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a > braille > display but I currently don't have one. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From hotdancer1416 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 15:55:02 2013 From: hotdancer1416 at gmail.com (Ashlee g) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 11:55:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: cool i will look that up NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:47, Jewel wrote: > Just a quick note, if you have aniDevice, another app is Voice Dream. > You can download books and many other documents (including > powerpoints) from Bookshare, Gutenberg, iTunes, DropBox, or the web > browser. It will read it using your preferred voice, each of which > costs $1.99 (and a very few cost $2.99). This is especially helpful if > you have foreign language documents because Voice Dream has a > plentitude of foreign voices from Spanish and French to Chinese and > Japanese. The voices are wonderful, and have made listening to school > documents much nicer for me, as well, of course, for books. > > I don't know much about reading e-books on the PC, but that's my > little spill about a great app for the iDevices. > > Good luck, > Jewel > > On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I >> have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for >> iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The >> app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is >> $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are >> really good. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >> >> I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is >> accessible. They did >> a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you >> this was two >> years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for >> amazon >> books and anything else you bought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Kerri Kosten >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >> >> Hi All: >> >> So, I love to read. >> What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? >> Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad >> app? >> I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I >> don't mind >> voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. >> I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, >> or listen to >> an audiobook. >> Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to >> purchase a >> book on it can you read it using Jaws? >> There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either >> Bookshare or BARD >> and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for >> only $2.99. >> What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? >> At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the >> PC using >> Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? >> I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a >> braille >> display but I currently don't have one. >> Thanks, >> Kerri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> ms2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 16:00:13 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 10:00:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <001a01ce2e9a$8ace9a00$a06bce00$@gmail.com> References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> <001a01ce2e9a$8ace9a00$a06bce00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, Apparently, that's what she would have to do if she was going to a water park. :) If her dog can't stand being separated, and she's forced to take him everywhere, it seems the only choice. Best, Kirt On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > You understand that everyone's situation is different. Your alright with > me > man. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:24 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Justin, > Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced > to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home > when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all > that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there > are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think > it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really > applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not > lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm > about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so > who am I to judge? > Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their > mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty > of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel > confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this > seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart > hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and > experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. > Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often > than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see > the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to > convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just > saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler > already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if > not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin > with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of > course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so > it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where > he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most > competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good > dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering > what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water > slides. :) > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> Cane, dog, what works. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >> center.) >> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>> uncomfortable >>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>> anyways. >>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>> broke down >>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>> boarding >>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>> operator if they >>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>> said, so I'll >>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>> different, so >>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>> perk and >>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>> disability or >>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>> farbeit from me >>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>> I feel >>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>> with >>> everybody else, you should. >>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>> caved in to >>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>> don't always >>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>> very >>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>> and it >>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>> before (if >>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>> That's >>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>> skipped in >>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>> but >>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>> need. >>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>> of things >>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>> if we aren't >>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>> isn't >>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>> _have_ to have >>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>> responsibility. >>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>> problems we >>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>> cheerfully (or >>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>> parks. I >>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>> to cut in >>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>> of a far, >>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>> we are >>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>> wouldn't >>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>> extended time for >>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>> unnecessary), >>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>> us, begging >>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>> yes, >>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>> really saying? >>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>> cane? >>> Interesting. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>> dog very >>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>> while >>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>> hours like >>> everyone else." >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> >>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>> user than >>> to a cane user? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah Meeks >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>> They are very >>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>> a dog. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>> went twice >>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>> parents >>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>> sister >>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>> and not >>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>> with me the >>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>> When I went >>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>> Disney >>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>> with me or >>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>> water >>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>> rides which >>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>> cane you can >>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>> the cane >>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>> It won't >>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>> idea sounds >>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>> get worried >>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>> problems with >>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>> >>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>> the cane >>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>> the >>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Sophie, >>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>> if I was >>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>> I >>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>> of "social" >>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>> and to meet >>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>> problem, but I'll >>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>> or folding >>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>> big rides >>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>> ride >>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>> rides usually >>> start and end at the same place. >>> Waterslides >>> and things are different though, obviously. >>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>> bits I could >>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>> myself over >>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>> need to buy >>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>> for the >>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>> as my >>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>> cane with >>> a holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>> parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>> exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>> are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>> walk away, >>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>> My >>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>> it would be >>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>> this, because >>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be >>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>> back to >>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>> rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>> ms2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 16:01:48 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 10:01:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> <001a01ce2e9a$8ace9a00$a06bce00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Okay...maybe that was unduly harsh, and I apologize. I'm sure even the most needy dogs could probably deal with someone else watching them for two or three minutes while their handler goes down a water slide. I'll freely admit when I say something irrational or silly, and this was one of those times I think. On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Justin, > Apparently, that's what she would have to do if she was going to a > water park. :) If her dog can't stand being separated, and she's > forced to take him everywhere, it seems the only choice. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> You understand that everyone's situation is different. Your alright with >> me >> man. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:24 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Justin, >> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >> who am I to judge? >> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >> slides. :) >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Cane, dog, what works. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Manwaring >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>> center.) >>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Sarah >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>> uncomfortable >>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>> anyways. >>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>> broke down >>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>> boarding >>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>> operator if they >>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>> said, so I'll >>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>> different, so >>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>> perk and >>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>> disability or >>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>> farbeit from me >>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>> I feel >>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>> with >>>> everybody else, you should. >>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>> caved in to >>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>> don't always >>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>> very >>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>> and it >>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>> before (if >>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>> That's >>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>> skipped in >>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>> but >>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>> need. >>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>> of things >>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>> if we aren't >>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>> isn't >>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>> _have_ to have >>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>> responsibility. >>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>> problems we >>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>> cheerfully (or >>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>> parks. I >>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>> to cut in >>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>> of a far, >>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>> we are >>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>> wouldn't >>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>> extended time for >>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>> unnecessary), >>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>> us, begging >>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>> yes, >>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>> really saying? >>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>> cane? >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Sarah >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>> dog very >>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>> while >>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>> hours like >>>> everyone else." >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> >>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>> user than >>>> to a cane user? >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Sarah Meeks >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>> They are very >>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>> a dog. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>> went twice >>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>> parents >>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>> sister >>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>> and not >>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>> with me the >>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>> When I went >>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>> Disney >>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>> with me or >>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>> water >>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>> rides which >>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>> cane you can >>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>> the cane >>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>> It won't >>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>> idea sounds >>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>> get worried >>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>> problems with >>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>> >>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>> the cane >>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>> the >>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Sophie, >>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>> if I was >>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>> I >>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>> of "social" >>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>> and to meet >>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>> problem, but I'll >>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>> or folding >>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>> big rides >>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>> ride >>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>> rides usually >>>> start and end at the same place. >>>> Waterslides >>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>> bits I could >>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>> myself over >>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>> need to buy >>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>> for the >>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>> as my >>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>> cane with >>>> a holster. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Cindy >>>> Bennett >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>> parks, I >>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>> exit >>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>> are such >>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>> walk away, >>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>> My >>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>> it would be >>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>> >>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>> this, because >>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>> be >>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>> back to >>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>> >>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>> rides? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cindy Bennett >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>> ms2 >>>> %40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>> e%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>> t104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>> e%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From dsykora29 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 16:43:55 2013 From: dsykora29 at gmail.com (Danielle Sykora) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 12:43:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I believe that extra time should be used sparingly; only when it is really necessary. We must be careful to use the accomidations we have been given appropriately. Like others have said, I only use extra time when I experience technological issues or if there are complicated daigrams. As for waiting in lines, this oppurtunity should also only be used if it is necessary. Most of us are completely able to stand in a line just like sighted people. Although it might seem tempting to cut a line and skip the waiting time, we might be causing more harm than we realize. Many people with guide dogs choose not to bring their dogs to amusement parks so this wouldn't be a big issue. It is unfair to have a dog waiting in lines (possibly in extreme heat) for long periods of time. Just my opinion, Danielle On 4/2/13, Jessica Silva wrote: > > Hello: > Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but I > honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide dogs > shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think it's right > that the dog has to go through so much especially at a waterpark. I > understand we want to look more independent and what not, but putting a dog > through torture like that, at a crowded waterpark, waiting for hours and > hours possibly in lines if you choose to stand in a line just seems > inhumane to me. > Jess > > Check out my blog: > http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva > http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com > > > > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >>Good morning, >> >> It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >>with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, >>who cares? >>Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >>>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast >>> on >>>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated >>> in >>>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No >>> but >>>seriously, I use any tool available to me. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Manwaring >>>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>>Justin, >>> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >>>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >>> with >>>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >>> different >>>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual >>>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >>> tactally >>>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has >>> been >>>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >>> Best, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> > Silverman >>> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> > >>> > Hi all, >>> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >>> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>> > understand why it bothers me (and many of >>> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >>> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >>> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >>> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >>> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >>> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >>> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little >>> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. >>> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it >>> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >>> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >>> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >>> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >>> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >>> > letter of recommendation. >>> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> > Arielle >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> > 0gmail >>> > .com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>> > mail.com >>> > >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>.com >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva2003%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 17:15:10 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 10:15:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Article: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help theblind navigate, CNet News, April 1, 2013 In-Reply-To: <2001EF19-637F-47CC-BCAF-D724EFF2D990@samobile.net> References: <000e01ce2f59$965ec0b0$c31c4210$@gmail.com> <2001EF19-637F-47CC-BCAF-D724EFF2D990@samobile.net> Message-ID: Hello, It is the special map the users build based on the small environment the game has. The monsters and jewels are not necessary, but help cement the directions in the player's mind. I'm not sure why they are doing this now as I've been telling people that playing games has helped me considerably in developing my mapping skills and if I had a game for a place I wanted to travel, I would have considerably more knowledge of a place than I would if I heard directions from someone, saw a map or even walked it. I'm excited they are heading toward this and hope the next generation of GPS technology will include interactive environment's. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Moerke Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Article: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help theblind navigate, CNet News, April 1, 2013 I have a strong suspicion that the videogame in another itself is not what necessarily responsible for increasing success of navigation. I think the video game activates some cognitive processes that traditional instruction does not. I suspect it's the same phenomenon that works instruction discovery. I don't know that for fact, but it's a gas. This message was typed in a hurry using Siri, so please forgive me in advance for grammatical errors. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:21 PM, "Humberto Avila" wrote: > Link: > http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57577323-76/audio-based-virtual-gaming-aim > s-to-help-the-blind-navigate/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title > > Text: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help the blind navigate > Using only audio-based cues within the context of a video game metaphor, > blind users in a study out of Harvard are able to explore a building's > layout. > Elizabeth Armstrong Moore > > Blind players were better able to navigate the building in real life than > their counterparts who'd been introduced to it by walking through it. > (Credit: Journal of Visualized Experiments) > A video game that uses audio cues and computer-generated building layouts > has proven to be better at improving a blind person's spatial awareness of > that place than does actually walking them through it, according to new > research out of Harvard Medical School and the Massachusetts Eye and Ear > Infirmary. > The findings could have implications for how visually impaired people -- > and > possibly those without impairments -- best learn to navigate unknown > territory. > "It is a tool to build a map of a place you have never been to before," > Lotfi Merabet, the neuroscientist whose team developed the software used > in > the study (which appears in the Journal of Visualized Experiments), told > Reuters. "The video game not only allows you to build a map in your mind, > it > allows you to interact with it mentally in a way that you wouldn't be able > to if you were taught explicitly by walking through it." > Merabet sees the video game as an important step toward revolutionizing > assisted tech for the visually impaired, of which there are some 285 > million > globally. > His team tested the game on teens to 45-year-olds who were either > congenitally blind or had lost their sight. Some participants played the > game, using audio cues to find hidden jewels in a building that in real > life > is a center for the blind in Newton, Mass. There was an added incentive: > They had to remove those jewels from the building without being caught by, > you guessed it, monsters lurking in dark corners. Other participants got > to > actually walk the building itself to learn the lay of the land. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 17:29:04 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 11:29:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Article: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help theblind navigate, CNet News, April 1, 2013 In-Reply-To: References: <000e01ce2f59$965ec0b0$c31c4210$@gmail.com> <2001EF19-637F-47CC-BCAF-D724EFF2D990@samobile.net> Message-ID: Jedi, Much as I love and depend on structured discovery, I'm not sure this is quite the same thing. I'll grant you that they probably use similar processes in the brain, though. Now, if only the hospital or k-mart from the game Swamp were buildings I needed to go to in real life. :) (audiogame hobbiests probably know what I'm talking about, *grin*) On 4/2/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It is the special map the users build based on the small environment the > game has. The monsters and jewels are not necessary, but help cement the > directions in the player's mind. > I'm not sure why they are doing this now as I've been telling people that > playing games has helped me considerably in developing my mapping skills and > > if I had a game for a place I wanted to travel, I would have considerably > more knowledge of a place than I would if I heard directions from someone, > saw a map or even walked it. > I'm excited they are heading toward this and hope the next generation of GPS > > technology will include interactive environment's. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi Moerke > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:51 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Article: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help > theblind navigate, CNet News, April 1, 2013 > > I have a strong suspicion that the videogame in another itself is not what > necessarily responsible for increasing success of navigation. I think the > video game activates some cognitive processes that traditional instruction > does not. I suspect it's the same phenomenon that works instruction > discovery. I don't know that for fact, but it's a gas. This message was > typed in a hurry using Siri, so please forgive me in advance for grammatical > > errors. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:21 PM, "Humberto Avila" > wrote: > >> Link: >> http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57577323-76/audio-based-virtual-gaming-aim >> s-to-help-the-blind-navigate/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title >> >> Text: Audio-based virtual gaming aims to help the blind navigate >> Using only audio-based cues within the context of a video game metaphor, >> blind users in a study out of Harvard are able to explore a building's >> layout. >> Elizabeth Armstrong Moore >> >> Blind players were better able to navigate the building in real life than >> their counterparts who'd been introduced to it by walking through it. >> (Credit: Journal of Visualized Experiments) >> A video game that uses audio cues and computer-generated building layouts >> has proven to be better at improving a blind person's spatial awareness >> of >> that place than does actually walking them through it, according to new >> research out of Harvard Medical School and the Massachusetts Eye and Ear >> Infirmary. >> The findings could have implications for how visually impaired people -- >> >> and >> possibly those without impairments -- best learn to navigate unknown >> territory. >> "It is a tool to build a map of a place you have never been to before," >> Lotfi Merabet, the neuroscientist whose team developed the software used >> in >> the study (which appears in the Journal of Visualized Experiments), told >> Reuters. "The video game not only allows you to build a map in your mind, >> >> it >> allows you to interact with it mentally in a way that you wouldn't be >> able >> to if you were taught explicitly by walking through it." >> Merabet sees the video game as an important step toward revolutionizing >> assisted tech for the visually impaired, of which there are some 285 >> million >> globally. >> His team tested the game on teens to 45-year-olds who were either >> congenitally blind or had lost their sight. Some participants played the >> game, using audio cues to find hidden jewels in a building that in real >> life >> is a center for the blind in Newton, Mass. There was an added incentive: >> They had to remove those jewels from the building without being caught >> by, >> you guessed it, monsters lurking in dark corners. Other participants got >> to >> actually walk the building itself to learn the lay of the land. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 17:49:11 2013 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel Wheeler) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 12:49:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] extra time on tests was Re: Lines In-Reply-To: References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D050D7A-47DD-4355-94CC-A65C6AB5D857@gmail.com> First off, hope y'all don't mind. I changed the subject line to better reflect our conversation. I do take extra time on tests at my university. I will say that I am studying French and Russian. I think that a student should take extra time depending on their situation. For example, my school typically does a poor job getting me exams in electronic formats, and I usually have to stop in the middle of my exam and make the student disability testing center fix their mistakes so I can correctly access parts of my exam. I need my full time and a half, or double time, to complete exams because of this. I will also say that when reading large volumes of foreign language material, it takes me a little longer than my sighted class mates who can just scan through the material to answer the questions. I will say though that I am only an advocate of using your full time and a half, or double time, if the situation requires it. For example, your disability office screwing up your exam to begin with, or some other situation where you have a proctor or something. I really honestly believe that we should have an opinion on this on a case by case basis. My situation is different from Arielle's, and Arielle's situation is different from Justin's etc. Just my thoughts, Laurel On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Danielle Sykora wrote: > Hi all, > I believe that extra time should be used sparingly; only when it is > really necessary. We must be careful to use the accomidations we have > been given appropriately. Like others have said, I only use extra time > when I experience technological issues or if there are complicated > daigrams. > > As for waiting in lines, this oppurtunity should also only be used if > it is necessary. Most of us are completely able to stand in a line > just like sighted people. Although it might seem tempting to cut a > line and skip the waiting time, we might be causing more harm than we > realize. > Many people with guide dogs choose not to bring their dogs to > amusement parks so this wouldn't be a big issue. It is unfair to have > a dog waiting in lines (possibly in extreme heat) for long periods of > time. > Just my opinion, > Danielle > > On 4/2/13, Jessica Silva wrote: >> >> Hello: >> Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but I >> honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide dogs >> shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think it's right >> that the dog has to go through so much especially at a waterpark. I >> understand we want to look more independent and what not, but putting a dog >> through torture like that, at a crowded waterpark, waiting for hours and >> hours possibly in lines if you choose to stand in a line just seems >> inhumane to me. >> Jess >> >> Check out my blog: >> http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >> http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >>> Good morning, >>> >>> It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >>> with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, >>> who cares? >>> Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >>>> I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast >>>> on >>>> a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated >>>> in >>>> the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No >>>> but >>>> seriously, I use any tool available to me. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >>>> >>>> Justin, >>>> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >>>> hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >>>> with >>>> braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >>>> different >>>> subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual >>>> information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >>>> tactally >>>> or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has >>>> been >>>> said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>>> Silverman >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>>>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>>>> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>>>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>>>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>>>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >>>>> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>>>> understand why it bothers me (and many of >>>>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>>>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>>>> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >>>>> the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >>>>> person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >>>>> standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >>>>> uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>>>> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>>>> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >>>>> line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >>>>> blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little >>>>> to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>>>> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>>>> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>>>> accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. >>>>> If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it >>>>> will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >>>>> an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >>>>> than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >>>>> not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>>>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>>>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>>>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>>>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>>>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>>>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>>>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>>>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>>>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >>>>> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >>>>> letter of recommendation. >>>>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>>>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>>> 0gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva2003%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 18:10:46 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:10:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Kurt, Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they should. I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Justin, > Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced > to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home > when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all > that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there > are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think > it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really > applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not > lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm > about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so > who am I to judge? > Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their > mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty > of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel > confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this > seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart > hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and > experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. > Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often > than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see > the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to > convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just > saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler > already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if > not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin > with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of > course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so > it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where > he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most > competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good > dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering > what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water > slides. :) > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> Cane, dog, what works. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >> center.) >> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>> uncomfortable >>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>> anyways. >>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>> broke down >>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>> boarding >>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>> operator if they >>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>> said, so I'll >>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>> different, so >>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>> perk and >>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>> disability or >>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>> farbeit from me >>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>> I feel >>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>> with >>> everybody else, you should. >>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>> caved in to >>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>> don't always >>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>> very >>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>> and it >>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>> before (if >>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>> That's >>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>> skipped in >>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>> but >>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>> need. >>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>> of things >>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>> if we aren't >>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>> isn't >>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>> _have_ to have >>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>> responsibility. >>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>> problems we >>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>> cheerfully (or >>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>> parks. I >>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>> to cut in >>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>> of a far, >>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>> we are >>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>> wouldn't >>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>> extended time for >>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>> unnecessary), >>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>> us, begging >>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>> yes, >>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>> really saying? >>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>> cane? >>> Interesting. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>> dog very >>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>> while >>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>> hours like >>> everyone else." >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> >>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>> user than >>> to a cane user? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah Meeks >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>> They are very >>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>> a dog. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>> went twice >>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>> parents >>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>> sister >>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>> and not >>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>> with me the >>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>> When I went >>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>> Disney >>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>> with me or >>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>> water >>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>> rides which >>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>> cane you can >>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>> the cane >>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>> It won't >>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>> idea sounds >>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>> get worried >>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>> problems with >>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>> >>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>> the cane >>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>> the >>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Sophie, >>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>> if I was >>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>> I >>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>> of "social" >>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>> and to meet >>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>> problem, but I'll >>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>> or folding >>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>> big rides >>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>> ride >>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>> rides usually >>> start and end at the same place. >>> Waterslides >>> and things are different though, obviously. >>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>> bits I could >>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>> myself over >>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>> need to buy >>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>> for the >>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>> as my >>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>> cane with >>> a holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>> parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>> exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>> are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>> walk away, >>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>> My >>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>> it would be >>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>> this, because >>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be >>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>> back to >>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>> rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>> ms2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From kaybaycar at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 18:21:10 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:21:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> <001a01ce2e9a$8ace9a00$a06bce00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kurt, Kaiti, and all, First, although I would choose to leave my dog at home if I went to an amusement park, it sounds to me like Sarah knows the people there very well and trusts them. I suppose if it was somewhere I went every other day, and I knew the people, I might do the same. I don't know. I find myself in situations where I choose to leave the dog either at home or with someone else while I perform with my choir or give a recital. It's no problem for us. I prefer to use a dog for sure, but I know there are times when she and I would both be more comfortable if I just let her chill in the audience or hang out at home. Kurt, I have a feeling that if we lumped all the guide dog users in the NFB together in one room and talked to them about their travel habits, we would be surprised at what we find. Yes, many are incompetent travelers, but just as many, if not more, are independent travelers. I believe this is true because of what I've observed as a guide dog users. IMO, it's the less competent travelers and the dog users who can't handle their dogs who stick out in a crowd. The other problem is that if one thing goes wrong with our dog, and it's having a bad day for some reason, people remember it forever and may consider us incompetent. So... Be cautious before making assumptions about guide dog users. I think it's safe to say that we are all at different places when it comes to traveling independently. We all have bad days, areas where we aren't as confident, ETC. On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Okay...maybe that was unduly harsh, and I apologize. I'm sure even > the most needy dogs could probably deal with someone else watching > them for two or three minutes while their handler goes down a water > slide. I'll freely admit when I say something irrational or silly, > and this was one of those times I think. > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Justin, >> Apparently, that's what she would have to do if she was going to a >> water park. :) If her dog can't stand being separated, and she's >> forced to take him everywhere, it seems the only choice. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> You understand that everyone's situation is different. Your alright >>> with >>> me >>> man. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Manwaring >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:24 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Justin, >>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>> who am I to judge? >>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>> slides. :) >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>> center.) >>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>> uncomfortable >>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>> anyways. >>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>> broke down >>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>> boarding >>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>> operator if they >>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>> said, so I'll >>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>> different, so >>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>> perk and >>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>> disability or >>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>> farbeit from me >>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>> I feel >>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>> with >>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>> caved in to >>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>> don't always >>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>> very >>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>> and it >>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>> before (if >>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>> That's >>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>> skipped in >>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>> but >>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>> need. >>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>> of things >>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>> if we aren't >>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>> isn't >>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>> _have_ to have >>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>> responsibility. >>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>> problems we >>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>> parks. I >>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>> to cut in >>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>> of a far, >>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>> we are >>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>> wouldn't >>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>> extended time for >>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>> unnecessary), >>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>> us, begging >>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>> yes, >>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>> really saying? >>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>> cane? >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>> dog very >>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>> while >>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>> hours like >>>>> everyone else." >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> >>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>> user than >>>>> to a cane user? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>> They are very >>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>> a dog. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>> went twice >>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>> parents >>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>> sister >>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>> and not >>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>> with me the >>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>> When I went >>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>> Disney >>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>> with me or >>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>> water >>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>> rides which >>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>> cane you can >>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>> the cane >>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>> It won't >>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>> idea sounds >>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>> get worried >>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>> problems with >>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>> the cane >>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>> the >>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Sophie, >>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>> if I was >>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>> I >>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>> of "social" >>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>> and to meet >>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>> or folding >>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>> big rides >>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>> ride >>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>> rides usually >>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>> Waterslides >>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>> bits I could >>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>> myself over >>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>> need to buy >>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>> for the >>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>> as my >>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>> cane with >>>>> a holster. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Cindy >>>>> Bennett >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>> parks, I >>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>> exit >>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>> are such >>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>> walk away, >>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>> My >>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>> it would be >>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>> >>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>> this, because >>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>> be >>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>> back to >>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>> >>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>> rides? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>> >>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>> ms2 >>>>> %40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:05:15 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:05:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Desiree, I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted to. Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it differently than I do. All the best, Kirt On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Hi Kurt, > Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on > to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane > user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all > that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around > one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the > things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several > well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take > precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can > really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. > now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for > a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane > skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing > cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, > simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the > way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they > should. > I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created > equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the > Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, > those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't > surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they > shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your > dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go > to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't > really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Justin, >> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >> who am I to judge? >> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >> slides. :) >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Cane, dog, what works. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Manwaring >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>> center.) >>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Sarah >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>> uncomfortable >>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>> anyways. >>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>> broke down >>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>> boarding >>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>> operator if they >>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>> said, so I'll >>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>> different, so >>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>> perk and >>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>> disability or >>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>> farbeit from me >>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>> I feel >>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>> with >>>> everybody else, you should. >>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>> caved in to >>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>> don't always >>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>> very >>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>> and it >>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>> before (if >>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>> That's >>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>> skipped in >>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>> but >>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>> need. >>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>> of things >>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>> if we aren't >>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>> isn't >>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>> _have_ to have >>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>> responsibility. >>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>> problems we >>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>> cheerfully (or >>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>> parks. I >>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>> to cut in >>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>> of a far, >>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>> we are >>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>> wouldn't >>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>> extended time for >>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>> unnecessary), >>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>> us, begging >>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>> yes, >>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>> really saying? >>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>> cane? >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Sarah >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>> dog very >>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>> while >>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>> hours like >>>> everyone else." >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> >>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>> user than >>>> to a cane user? >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Sarah Meeks >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>> They are very >>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>> a dog. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>> went twice >>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>> parents >>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>> sister >>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>> and not >>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>> with me the >>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>> When I went >>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>> Disney >>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>> with me or >>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>> water >>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>> rides which >>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>> cane you can >>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>> the cane >>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>> It won't >>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>> idea sounds >>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>> get worried >>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>> problems with >>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>> >>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>> the cane >>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>> the >>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Sophie, >>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>> if I was >>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>> I >>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>> of "social" >>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>> and to meet >>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>> problem, but I'll >>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>> or folding >>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>> big rides >>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>> ride >>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>> rides usually >>>> start and end at the same place. >>>> Waterslides >>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>> bits I could >>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>> myself over >>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>> need to buy >>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>> for the >>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>> as my >>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>> cane with >>>> a holster. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Cindy >>>> Bennett >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>> parks, I >>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>> exit >>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>> are such >>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>> walk away, >>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>> My >>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>> it would be >>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>> >>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>> this, because >>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>> be >>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>> back to >>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>> >>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>> rides? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cindy Bennett >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>> ms2 >>>> %40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>> e%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>> t104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>> e%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:21:38 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:21:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Julie, I'm making my assumptions based on all the blind dog users I know, both in and out of the Federation. Of course there are plenty of competent dog users out there and I didn't mean to imply that there aren't. My point was only that most dog users I know, just like most cane users I know, aren't all that competent, by the definition I gave in my previous e-mail. The only difference is that many people I know who apply to go to guide dog school (myself a couple years back included), seem to be doing it because they aren't competent travelers and they want something external to fix that internal issue. I have nothing negative to say about competent dog users; more power to them for choosing a travel aid which increases their independence. Sadly, and this is not a criticism of the genuinely capable people who use dogs, but most dog-users I know tend to use their dogs as a crutch rather than a tool to increase independence. Am I making any sense? Best, Kirt On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Desiree, > I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different > people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have > minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go > to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident > cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and > knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond > that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you > like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my > mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so > forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, > regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to > me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as > well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any > specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I > know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. > I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand > that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility > skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, > I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and > following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel > like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't > have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I > can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's > fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student > seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such > and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I > politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I > changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. > With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS > giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over > there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after > staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked > back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few > harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later > I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I > certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines > are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally > different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how > incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, > it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good > cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would > probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted > to. > Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't > really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a > good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something > like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd > like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I > had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or > earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring > new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking > everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or > use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding > new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind > person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and > personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to > acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. > Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to > write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm > coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it > differently than I do. > All the best, > Kirt > > On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Hi Kurt, >> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >> should. >> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Justin, >>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>> who am I to judge? >>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>> slides. :) >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>> center.) >>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>> uncomfortable >>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>> anyways. >>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>> broke down >>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>> boarding >>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>> operator if they >>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>> said, so I'll >>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>> different, so >>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>> perk and >>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>> disability or >>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>> farbeit from me >>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>> I feel >>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>> with >>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>> caved in to >>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>> don't always >>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>> very >>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>> and it >>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>> before (if >>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>> That's >>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>> skipped in >>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>> but >>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>> need. >>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>> of things >>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>> if we aren't >>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>> isn't >>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>> _have_ to have >>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>> responsibility. >>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>> problems we >>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>> parks. I >>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>> to cut in >>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>> of a far, >>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>> we are >>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>> wouldn't >>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>> extended time for >>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>> unnecessary), >>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>> us, begging >>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>> yes, >>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>> really saying? >>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>> cane? >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>> dog very >>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>> while >>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>> hours like >>>>> everyone else." >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> >>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>> user than >>>>> to a cane user? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>> They are very >>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>> a dog. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>> went twice >>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>> parents >>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>> sister >>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>> and not >>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>> with me the >>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>> When I went >>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>> Disney >>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>> with me or >>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>> water >>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>> rides which >>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>> cane you can >>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>> the cane >>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>> It won't >>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>> idea sounds >>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>> get worried >>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>> problems with >>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>> the cane >>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>> the >>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Sophie, >>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>> if I was >>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>> I >>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>> of "social" >>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>> and to meet >>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>> or folding >>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>> big rides >>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>> ride >>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>> rides usually >>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>> Waterslides >>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>> bits I could >>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>> myself over >>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>> need to buy >>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>> for the >>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>> as my >>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>> cane with >>>>> a holster. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Cindy >>>>> Bennett >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>> parks, I >>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>> exit >>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>> are such >>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>> walk away, >>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>> My >>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>> it would be >>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>> >>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>> this, because >>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>> be >>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>> back to >>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>> >>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>> rides? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>> >>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>> ms2 >>>>> %40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:23:43 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:23:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> <001a01ce2e9a$8ace9a00$a06bce00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Julie and all, Certainly we can't generalize and say that all dog, or cane users, are the same. I too have come acroos excellent guide dog teams and ones that were not so great, usually due more to the handler than the dog. I've also come across some fantastic cane travelers, and those who constantly depend on using sighted guide even in what should be familiar areas because their cane skills aren't up to par. Everyone is different. I am currently a proud cane user, and consider myself to be pretty good at it, but I can recognize that guide dogs provide something that a cane does not and wish to get one at some point. I've come to this realization after a lot of thought about both travel options, and am waiting because although my cane skills have improved a great deal over the past few years there are just other things going on in my life with school that, I think, would not allow me to give a dog the attention he or she deserves. When I get a dog I want to do it right and make sure I have the time to meet all their needs in addition to my own. Before that though, I was one of those people who was under the false notion that a dog would make me more independent and a better traveler. At sixteen all my friends at school started getting drivers licenses so I applied to GDB to get a dog. The regional rep came for a home interview and went through the standard questionaire about my travel habits, and when he found I didn't travel enough on my own he explained that a dog would not make me a better traveler or more independent, all it would do for me at that point would be to maybe provide a social boost because other people would notice the dog. In that way I would not be able to fully take advantage of the training, the dog would not be able to take advantage of all its training, and I'd basically be walking around with a mobility tool I didn't really know how to use. It was really hard taking that advice then, but I'm really glad the rep was so honest with me and I've realized that he was perfectly right in telling me. So, when I do decide to submit another application for a dog, be it at GDB or somewhere else, I will be able to realistically think about my situation and if it would suit me and a dog well. Yes, guide dog schools are certainly not created equal. Most of the great teams I've seen have come from Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye. I know some really good teams from GDB, but also know a few where the handler isn't a great traveler or doesn't take care of the dog like they should, E.G. lets the dog gain more weight than they should due to not working them enough. It really depends on the handler more than anything else though. For example, Pilot Dog in Columbus, which generally doesn't have a great reputation for turning out great guide dogs, has given several dogs to a woman I know who is a great traveler and who's dogs have all been very well behaved from the time they were young till their retirement. I didn't mean to lump people when I was discussing Sarah's case with bringing her dog to the water or amusement park, it just seemed odd to me that a school wouldn't work on separation for a short time in their training. It seemed odd to me that they would expect a handler to constantly use their dog and to never have the option of using their cane and leaving the dog at home instead of to work on that with a dog. It sounds like patience is an issue as Sarah pointed out that he gets fidgety just standing in line at the bank. I won't pretend to be an expert on guide dogs because I'm certainly not, but that seems like it should be something the school might have worked on. On 4/2/13, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Kurt, Kaiti, and all, > > First, although I would choose to leave my dog at home if I went to an > amusement park, it sounds to me like Sarah knows the people there very > well and trusts them. I suppose if it was somewhere I went every > other day, and I knew the people, I might do the same. I don't know. > I find myself in situations where I choose to leave the dog either at > home or with someone else while I perform with my choir or give a > recital. It's no problem for us. I prefer to use a dog for sure, but > I know there are times when she and I would both be more comfortable > if I just let her chill in the audience or hang out at home. > > Kurt, I have a feeling that if we lumped all the guide dog users in > the NFB together in one room and talked to them about their travel > habits, we would be surprised at what we find. Yes, many are > incompetent travelers, but just as many, if not more, are independent > travelers. I believe this is true because of what I've observed as a > guide dog users. IMO, it's the less competent travelers and the dog > users who can't handle their dogs who stick out in a crowd. The other > problem is that if one thing goes wrong with our dog, and it's having > a bad day for some reason, people remember it forever and may consider > us incompetent. > > So... Be cautious before making assumptions about guide dog users. > > I think it's safe to say that we are all at different places when it > comes to traveling independently. We all have bad days, areas where > we aren't as confident, ETC. > > > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Okay...maybe that was unduly harsh, and I apologize. I'm sure even >> the most needy dogs could probably deal with someone else watching >> them for two or three minutes while their handler goes down a water >> slide. I'll freely admit when I say something irrational or silly, >> and this was one of those times I think. >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Justin, >>> Apparently, that's what she would have to do if she was going to a >>> water park. :) If her dog can't stand being separated, and she's >>> forced to take him everywhere, it seems the only choice. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> You understand that everyone's situation is different. Your alright >>>> with >>>> me >>>> man. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:24 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Justin, >>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>>> who am I to judge? >>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>> slides. :) >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>> center.) >>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>> anyways. >>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>> broke down >>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>> boarding >>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>> operator if they >>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>> different, so >>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>> perk and >>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>> disability or >>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>> I feel >>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>> with >>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>> caved in to >>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>> don't always >>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>> very >>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>> and it >>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>> before (if >>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>> That's >>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>> skipped in >>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>> but >>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>> need. >>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>> of things >>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>> isn't >>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>> problems we >>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>> parks. I >>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>> to cut in >>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>> of a far, >>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>> we are >>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>> extended time for >>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>> us, begging >>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>> yes, >>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>> really saying? >>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>> cane? >>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>> dog very >>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>> while >>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>> hours like >>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> >>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>> user than >>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>> They are very >>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>> a dog. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>> went twice >>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>> parents >>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>> sister >>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>> and not >>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>> with me the >>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>> When I went >>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>> Disney >>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>> with me or >>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>> water >>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>> rides which >>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>> cane you can >>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>> the cane >>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>> It won't >>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>> get worried >>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>> problems with >>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>> the cane >>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>> the >>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>> if I was >>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>> I >>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>> of "social" >>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>> and to meet >>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>> or folding >>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>> big rides >>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>> ride >>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>> rides usually >>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>> bits I could >>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>> myself over >>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>> need to buy >>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>> for the >>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>> as my >>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>> cane with >>>>>> a holster. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Cindy >>>>>> Bennett >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>> parks, I >>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>> exit >>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>> are such >>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>> walk away, >>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>> My >>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>> it would be >>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>> this, because >>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>> be >>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>> back to >>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>> >>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>> rides? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>> >>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>> ms2 >>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>> e%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:30:17 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:30:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Voice Dream sounds awesome! I'll have to check it out too. Blio is really good. I'd definitely recommend that one too. Also, if you have a notetaker like a BrailleNote or BrailleSense with a refreshable display you can use bluetooth to connect to your IPhone and read that way with a make-shift braille display. On 4/2/13, Ashlee g wrote: > cool i will look that up > > NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE > > On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:47, Jewel wrote: > >> Just a quick note, if you have aniDevice, another app is Voice Dream. >> You can download books and many other documents (including >> powerpoints) from Bookshare, Gutenberg, iTunes, DropBox, or the web >> browser. It will read it using your preferred voice, each of which >> costs $1.99 (and a very few cost $2.99). This is especially helpful if >> you have foreign language documents because Voice Dream has a >> plentitude of foreign voices from Spanish and French to Chinese and >> Japanese. The voices are wonderful, and have made listening to school >> documents much nicer for me, as well, of course, for books. >> >> I don't know much about reading e-books on the PC, but that's my >> little spill about a great app for the iDevices. >> >> Good luck, >> Jewel >> >> On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I >>> have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for >>> iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The >>> app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is >>> $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are >>> really good. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "justin williams" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>> >>> I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is >>> accessible. They did >>> a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you >>> this was two >>> years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for >>> amazon >>> books and anything else you bought. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Kerri Kosten >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>> >>> Hi All: >>> >>> So, I love to read. >>> What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? >>> Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad >>> app? >>> I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I >>> don't mind >>> voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. >>> I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, >>> or listen to >>> an audiobook. >>> Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to >>> purchase a >>> book on it can you read it using Jaws? >>> There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either >>> Bookshare or BARD >>> and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for >>> only $2.99. >>> What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? >>> At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the >>> PC using >>> Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? >>> I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a >>> braille >>> display but I currently don't have one. >>> Thanks, >>> Kerri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>> ms2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:38:57 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:38:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, That's actually what I'm shooting for, too. I'm pretty much cooped up in my campus for this semester with my course load, but next semester I'll have an apartment with a few roommates and won't be stuck going from my dorm, to class, to the dining halls, and back again. I'd love to be able to walk to the convenience store just off campus, or the Krogers down the road to go on a quick run for groceries. Our university offers a shuttle to Wal-Mart on Saturdays, and one of my roommates will have her car here, but for me it is about not being beholden to travel schedules. If I want to walk to the store to grab a few things then as long as it's not already dark outside or something I want to have the option of doing it available to me. AS Kirt said about the unfamiliar route too, I also want to be able to look at the bus routes online, plan a route, and take a gps and just get wherever I want to go by bus and walking. I hope to be able to explore a lot more next semester. (the first step in that will be to get a gps, but I'm holding out for the Sendero IPhone app to come out). On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > I'm making my assumptions based on all the blind dog users I know, > both in and out of the Federation. Of course there are plenty of > competent dog users out there and I didn't mean to imply that there > aren't. My point was only that most dog users I know, just like most > cane users I know, aren't all that competent, by the definition I gave > in my previous e-mail. The only difference is that many people I know > who apply to go to guide dog school (myself a couple years back > included), seem to be doing it because they aren't competent travelers > and they want something external to fix that internal issue. I have > nothing negative to say about competent dog users; more power to them > for choosing a travel aid which increases their independence. Sadly, > and this is not a criticism of the genuinely capable people who use > dogs, but most dog-users I know tend to use their dogs as a crutch > rather than a tool to increase independence. Am I making any sense? > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Desiree, >> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >> to. >> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >> differently than I do. >> All the best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>> Hi Kurt, >>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >>> should. >>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Justin, >>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>>> who am I to judge? >>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>> slides. :) >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>> Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>> center.) >>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>> anyways. >>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>> broke down >>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>> boarding >>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>> operator if they >>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>> different, so >>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>> perk and >>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>> disability or >>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>> I feel >>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>> with >>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>> caved in to >>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>> don't always >>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>> very >>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>> and it >>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>> before (if >>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>> That's >>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>> skipped in >>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>> but >>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>> need. >>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>> of things >>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>> isn't >>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>> problems we >>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>> parks. I >>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>> to cut in >>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>> of a far, >>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>> we are >>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>> extended time for >>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>> us, begging >>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>> yes, >>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>> really saying? >>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>> cane? >>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>> dog very >>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>> while >>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>> hours like >>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> >>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>> user than >>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>> They are very >>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>> a dog. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>> went twice >>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>> parents >>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>> sister >>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>> and not >>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>> with me the >>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>> When I went >>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>> Disney >>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>> with me or >>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>> water >>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>> rides which >>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>> cane you can >>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>> the cane >>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>> It won't >>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>> get worried >>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>> problems with >>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>> the cane >>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>> the >>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>> if I was >>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>> I >>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>> of "social" >>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>> and to meet >>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>> or folding >>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>> big rides >>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>> ride >>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>> rides usually >>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>> bits I could >>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>> myself over >>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>> need to buy >>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>> for the >>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>> as my >>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>> cane with >>>>>> a holster. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Cindy >>>>>> Bennett >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>> parks, I >>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>> exit >>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>> are such >>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>> walk away, >>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>> My >>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>> it would be >>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>> this, because >>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>> be >>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>> back to >>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>> >>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>> rides? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>> >>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>> ms2 >>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>> e%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kaybaycar at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:58:20 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:58:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kaiti, I agree with you. You're right... Dogs should have enough patience to wait in a line. My dog thinks it's an excuse for her to try and sleep, so I don't complain. No, a dog won't solve any navigational problems. I don't know where people get that notion. I actually think that sometimes schools should do a better job of screening applicants to find those people who may need more cane travel. The idea is that your cane travel skills are so good that if you need your cane for something, you can pick it up and go without a problem. I am not saying that my cane skills are that good, but that is the idea. You can't feel like your dog determines whether or not you go somewhere. Part of this problem is the misconception that sighted people have a bout guide dogs, and the other part of the problem is guide dog schools. They like to show their dogs as wonder dogs, which sometimes they can be, but if you read enough stories about Buddy saving his blind handeler from falling over the edge of a train platform, the whole idea of a guide dog team sounds magical. Not that it isn't that way sometimes, but there is so much more too it than that. So, I don't know if this lack of travel skills really has to do with cane or dog but with the opportunities people are given and attitudes they hold about their blindness. Getting a dog may make the problem more evident sometimes. I don't know. I found that my independence increased when I got a dog because it gave me confidence. Don't ask me why... It's not the best way to do it. On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > That's actually what I'm shooting for, too. I'm pretty much cooped up > in my campus for this semester with my course load, but next semester > I'll have an apartment with a few roommates and won't be stuck going > from my dorm, to class, to the dining halls, and back again. I'd love > to be able to walk to the convenience store just off campus, or the > Krogers down the road to go on a quick run for groceries. Our > university offers a shuttle to Wal-Mart on Saturdays, and one of my > roommates will have her car here, but for me it is about not being > beholden to travel schedules. If I want to walk to the store to grab > a few things then as long as it's not already dark outside or > something I want to have the option of doing it available to me. AS > Kirt said about the unfamiliar route too, I also want to be able to > look at the bus routes online, plan a route, and take a gps and just > get wherever I want to go by bus and walking. I hope to be able to > explore a lot more next semester. (the first step in that will be to > get a gps, but I'm holding out for the Sendero IPhone app to come > out). > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> I'm making my assumptions based on all the blind dog users I know, >> both in and out of the Federation. Of course there are plenty of >> competent dog users out there and I didn't mean to imply that there >> aren't. My point was only that most dog users I know, just like most >> cane users I know, aren't all that competent, by the definition I gave >> in my previous e-mail. The only difference is that many people I know >> who apply to go to guide dog school (myself a couple years back >> included), seem to be doing it because they aren't competent travelers >> and they want something external to fix that internal issue. I have >> nothing negative to say about competent dog users; more power to them >> for choosing a travel aid which increases their independence. Sadly, >> and this is not a criticism of the genuinely capable people who use >> dogs, but most dog-users I know tend to use their dogs as a crutch >> rather than a tool to increase independence. Am I making any sense? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Desiree, >>> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >>> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >>> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >>> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >>> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >>> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >>> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >>> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >>> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >>> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >>> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >>> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >>> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >>> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >>> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >>> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >>> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >>> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >>> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >>> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >>> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >>> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >>> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >>> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >>> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >>> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >>> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >>> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >>> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >>> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >>> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >>> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >>> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >>> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >>> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >>> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >>> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >>> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >>> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >>> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >>> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >>> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >>> to. >>> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >>> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >>> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >>> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >>> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >>> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >>> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >>> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >>> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >>> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >>> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >>> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >>> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >>> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >>> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >>> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >>> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >>> differently than I do. >>> All the best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>>> Hi Kurt, >>>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >>>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >>>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >>>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >>>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >>>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >>>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >>>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >>>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >>>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >>>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >>>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >>>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >>>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >>>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >>>> should. >>>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >>>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >>>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >>>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >>>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >>>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >>>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >>>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >>>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >>>> >>>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Justin, >>>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>>>> who am I to judge? >>>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>>> slides. :) >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>> Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >>>>>> I >>>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >>>>>> next >>>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>>> center.) >>>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone >>>>>> else, >>>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might >>>>>> construe >>>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against >>>>>> competent >>>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>>> anyways. >>>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>>> broke down >>>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>>> boarding >>>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>>> operator if they >>>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>>> different, so >>>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>>> perk and >>>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>>> disability or >>>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>>> I feel >>>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>>> caved in to >>>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>>> don't always >>>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>>> and it >>>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>>> before (if >>>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>>> That's >>>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>>> skipped in >>>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>>> need. >>>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>>> of things >>>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>>> problems we >>>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>>> parks. I >>>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>>> to cut in >>>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>>> of a far, >>>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>>> we are >>>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>>> extended time for >>>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>>> us, begging >>>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>>> yes, >>>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>>> really saying? >>>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>>> cane? >>>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>>> dog very >>>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>>> while >>>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>>> hours like >>>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>>> user than >>>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>>> They are very >>>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>>> a dog. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>>> went twice >>>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>>> parents >>>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>>> sister >>>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>>> and not >>>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>>> with me the >>>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>>> When I went >>>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>>> Disney >>>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>>> with me or >>>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>>> water >>>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>>> rides which >>>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>>> cane you can >>>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>>> It won't >>>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>>> get worried >>>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>>> problems with >>>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>>> if I was >>>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>>> of "social" >>>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>>> and to meet >>>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>>> or folding >>>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>>> big rides >>>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>>> ride >>>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>>> rides usually >>>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>>> bits I could >>>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>>> myself over >>>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>>> need to buy >>>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>>> for the >>>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>>> as my >>>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>>> cane with >>>>>>> a holster. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>> Bennett >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>>> parks, I >>>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>>> exit >>>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>>> are such >>>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>>> walk away, >>>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>>> it would be >>>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>>> this, because >>>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>>> back to >>>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>>> rides? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>>> ms2 >>>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:02:18 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:02:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Keitie, I won't deny that having a GPS is incredibly useful in unfamiliar places; still, to me, it doesn't seem necessary. It's convenient and helpful (sometimes) but I would almost suggest getting used to traveling in new places without it, just so you don't build a dependence. The skill that seems to serve me the best, which I learned very well from my cane travel teacher (who, incidentally, happens to be blind), is knowing how to ask the right questions without looking lost. I've found that, even if I don't know where in the world I'm supposed to go, I'd best be confident and in control when I'm asking questions so I get the information I need instead of a well-meaning follower for the next half hour. ;) I guess all I'm trying to say is that not having a GPS need not be a reason for not going out. If you want to explore, do it. Inconvenience and a longer walk be damned. (at least sometimes...I recognize the need for efficiency in most situations.) I'm moving out of my parents' house soon (try getting quality independence training then moving back home. It's a crazy trip for sure.), so I'll be in a situation where I can travel the way I like more often, without having to go out of my way to do so. I know this is very disjointed but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Best, Kirt On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > That's actually what I'm shooting for, too. I'm pretty much cooped up > in my campus for this semester with my course load, but next semester > I'll have an apartment with a few roommates and won't be stuck going > from my dorm, to class, to the dining halls, and back again. I'd love > to be able to walk to the convenience store just off campus, or the > Krogers down the road to go on a quick run for groceries. Our > university offers a shuttle to Wal-Mart on Saturdays, and one of my > roommates will have her car here, but for me it is about not being > beholden to travel schedules. If I want to walk to the store to grab > a few things then as long as it's not already dark outside or > something I want to have the option of doing it available to me. AS > Kirt said about the unfamiliar route too, I also want to be able to > look at the bus routes online, plan a route, and take a gps and just > get wherever I want to go by bus and walking. I hope to be able to > explore a lot more next semester. (the first step in that will be to > get a gps, but I'm holding out for the Sendero IPhone app to come > out). > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> I'm making my assumptions based on all the blind dog users I know, >> both in and out of the Federation. Of course there are plenty of >> competent dog users out there and I didn't mean to imply that there >> aren't. My point was only that most dog users I know, just like most >> cane users I know, aren't all that competent, by the definition I gave >> in my previous e-mail. The only difference is that many people I know >> who apply to go to guide dog school (myself a couple years back >> included), seem to be doing it because they aren't competent travelers >> and they want something external to fix that internal issue. I have >> nothing negative to say about competent dog users; more power to them >> for choosing a travel aid which increases their independence. Sadly, >> and this is not a criticism of the genuinely capable people who use >> dogs, but most dog-users I know tend to use their dogs as a crutch >> rather than a tool to increase independence. Am I making any sense? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Desiree, >>> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >>> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >>> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >>> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >>> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >>> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >>> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >>> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >>> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >>> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >>> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >>> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >>> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >>> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >>> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >>> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >>> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >>> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >>> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >>> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >>> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >>> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >>> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >>> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >>> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >>> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >>> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >>> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >>> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >>> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >>> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >>> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >>> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >>> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >>> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >>> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >>> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >>> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >>> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >>> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >>> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >>> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >>> to. >>> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >>> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >>> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >>> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >>> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >>> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >>> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >>> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >>> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >>> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >>> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >>> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >>> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >>> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >>> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >>> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >>> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >>> differently than I do. >>> All the best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>>> Hi Kurt, >>>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >>>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >>>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >>>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >>>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >>>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >>>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >>>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >>>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >>>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >>>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >>>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >>>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >>>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >>>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >>>> should. >>>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >>>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >>>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >>>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >>>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >>>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >>>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >>>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >>>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >>>> >>>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Justin, >>>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>>>> who am I to judge? >>>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>>> slides. :) >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>> Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >>>>>> I >>>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >>>>>> next >>>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>>> center.) >>>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone >>>>>> else, >>>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might >>>>>> construe >>>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against >>>>>> competent >>>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>>> anyways. >>>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>>> broke down >>>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>>> boarding >>>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>>> operator if they >>>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>>> different, so >>>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>>> perk and >>>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>>> disability or >>>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>>> I feel >>>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>>> caved in to >>>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>>> don't always >>>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>>> and it >>>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>>> before (if >>>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>>> That's >>>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>>> skipped in >>>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>>> need. >>>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>>> of things >>>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>>> problems we >>>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>>> parks. I >>>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>>> to cut in >>>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>>> of a far, >>>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>>> we are >>>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>>> extended time for >>>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>>> us, begging >>>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>>> yes, >>>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>>> really saying? >>>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>>> cane? >>>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>>> dog very >>>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>>> while >>>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>>> hours like >>>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>>> user than >>>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>>> They are very >>>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>>> a dog. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>>> went twice >>>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>>> parents >>>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>>> sister >>>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>>> and not >>>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>>> with me the >>>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>>> When I went >>>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>>> Disney >>>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>>> with me or >>>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>>> water >>>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>>> rides which >>>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>>> cane you can >>>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>>> It won't >>>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>>> get worried >>>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>>> problems with >>>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>>> if I was >>>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>>> of "social" >>>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>>> and to meet >>>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>>> or folding >>>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>>> big rides >>>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>>> ride >>>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>>> rides usually >>>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>>> bits I could >>>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>>> myself over >>>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>>> need to buy >>>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>>> for the >>>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>>> as my >>>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>>> cane with >>>>>>> a holster. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>> Bennett >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>>> parks, I >>>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>>> exit >>>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>>> are such >>>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>>> walk away, >>>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>>> it would be >>>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>>> this, because >>>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>>> back to >>>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>>> rides? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>>> ms2 >>>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:08:56 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:08:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Julie, I promise I'm going to get back to my homework soon...just one more message. ;) If it works for you, and if the dog isn't dictating where you do and don't go, I see no reason to second-guess yourself. To paraphrase dr. Jernigan's famous speech, being genuinely independent is more important than the tools you use to get there. Still, many dog users I've seen don't appear to be genuinely independent at all, and I think in that situation having a dog can exaserbate the problem because lots of people will rely on their dogs as a sort of bandaid instead of getting the quality training they need first. Of course, I know plenty of cane users who use sighted guide in much the same way.. Best, Kirt On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Keitie, > I won't deny that having a GPS is incredibly useful in unfamiliar > places; still, to me, it doesn't seem necessary. It's convenient and > helpful (sometimes) but I would almost suggest getting used to > traveling in new places without it, just so you don't build a > dependence. The skill that seems to serve me the best, which I > learned very well from my cane travel teacher (who, incidentally, > happens to be blind), is knowing how to ask the right questions > without looking lost. I've found that, even if I don't know where in > the world I'm supposed to go, I'd best be confident and in control > when I'm asking questions so I get the information I need instead of a > well-meaning follower for the next half hour. ;) > I guess all I'm trying to say is that not having a GPS need not be a > reason for not going out. If you want to explore, do it. > Inconvenience and a longer walk be damned. (at least sometimes...I > recognize the need for efficiency in most situations.) I'm moving out > of my parents' house soon (try getting quality independence training > then moving back home. It's a crazy trip for sure.), so I'll be in a > situation where I can travel the way I like more often, without having > to go out of my way to do so. I know this is very disjointed but I > hope you get what I'm trying to say. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi, >> >> That's actually what I'm shooting for, too. I'm pretty much cooped up >> in my campus for this semester with my course load, but next semester >> I'll have an apartment with a few roommates and won't be stuck going >> from my dorm, to class, to the dining halls, and back again. I'd love >> to be able to walk to the convenience store just off campus, or the >> Krogers down the road to go on a quick run for groceries. Our >> university offers a shuttle to Wal-Mart on Saturdays, and one of my >> roommates will have her car here, but for me it is about not being >> beholden to travel schedules. If I want to walk to the store to grab >> a few things then as long as it's not already dark outside or >> something I want to have the option of doing it available to me. AS >> Kirt said about the unfamiliar route too, I also want to be able to >> look at the bus routes online, plan a route, and take a gps and just >> get wherever I want to go by bus and walking. I hope to be able to >> explore a lot more next semester. (the first step in that will be to >> get a gps, but I'm holding out for the Sendero IPhone app to come >> out). >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Julie, >>> I'm making my assumptions based on all the blind dog users I know, >>> both in and out of the Federation. Of course there are plenty of >>> competent dog users out there and I didn't mean to imply that there >>> aren't. My point was only that most dog users I know, just like most >>> cane users I know, aren't all that competent, by the definition I gave >>> in my previous e-mail. The only difference is that many people I know >>> who apply to go to guide dog school (myself a couple years back >>> included), seem to be doing it because they aren't competent travelers >>> and they want something external to fix that internal issue. I have >>> nothing negative to say about competent dog users; more power to them >>> for choosing a travel aid which increases their independence. Sadly, >>> and this is not a criticism of the genuinely capable people who use >>> dogs, but most dog-users I know tend to use their dogs as a crutch >>> rather than a tool to increase independence. Am I making any sense? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Desiree, >>>> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >>>> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >>>> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >>>> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >>>> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >>>> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >>>> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >>>> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >>>> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >>>> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >>>> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >>>> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >>>> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >>>> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >>>> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >>>> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >>>> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >>>> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >>>> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >>>> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >>>> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >>>> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >>>> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >>>> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >>>> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >>>> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >>>> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >>>> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >>>> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >>>> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >>>> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >>>> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >>>> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >>>> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >>>> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >>>> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >>>> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >>>> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >>>> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >>>> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >>>> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >>>> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >>>> to. >>>> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >>>> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >>>> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >>>> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >>>> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >>>> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >>>> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >>>> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >>>> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >>>> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >>>> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >>>> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >>>> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >>>> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >>>> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >>>> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >>>> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >>>> differently than I do. >>>> All the best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>>>> Hi Kurt, >>>>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >>>>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >>>>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >>>>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >>>>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >>>>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >>>>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >>>>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >>>>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >>>>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >>>>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >>>>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >>>>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >>>>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >>>>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >>>>> should. >>>>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >>>>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >>>>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >>>>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >>>>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >>>>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >>>>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >>>>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >>>>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Justin, >>>>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being >>>>>> forced >>>>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, >>>>>> so >>>>>> who am I to judge? >>>>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many >>>>>> (if >>>>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm >>>>>> wondering >>>>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>>>> slides. :) >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>>> Manwaring >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >>>>>>> next >>>>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I >>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>>>> center.) >>>>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up >>>>>>> over >>>>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone >>>>>>> else, >>>>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how >>>>>>> ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might >>>>>>> construe >>>>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every >>>>>>> possible >>>>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against >>>>>>> competent >>>>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>>>> anyways. >>>>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>>>> broke down >>>>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>>>> boarding >>>>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>>>> operator if they >>>>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>>>> different, so >>>>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>>>> perk and >>>>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>>>> disability or >>>>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>>>> I feel >>>>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>>>> caved in to >>>>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>>>> don't always >>>>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>>>> and it >>>>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>>>> before (if >>>>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>>>> That's >>>>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>>>> skipped in >>>>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>>>> need. >>>>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>>>> of things >>>>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>>>> problems we >>>>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>>>> parks. I >>>>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>>>> to cut in >>>>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>>>> of a far, >>>>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>>>> we are >>>>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>>>> extended time for >>>>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>>>> us, begging >>>>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>>>> yes, >>>>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>>>> really saying? >>>>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>>>> cane? >>>>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>>>> dog very >>>>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>>>> while >>>>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>>>> hours like >>>>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>>>> user than >>>>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>>>> They are very >>>>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>>>> a dog. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>>>> went twice >>>>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>>>> parents >>>>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>>>> sister >>>>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>>>> and not >>>>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>>>> with me the >>>>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>>>> When I went >>>>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>>>> Disney >>>>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>>>> with me or >>>>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>>>> water >>>>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>>>> rides which >>>>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>>>> cane you can >>>>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>>>> It won't >>>>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>>>> get worried >>>>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>>>> problems with >>>>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>>>> if I was >>>>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>>>> of "social" >>>>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>>>> and to meet >>>>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>>>> or folding >>>>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>>>> big rides >>>>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>>>> ride >>>>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>>>> rides usually >>>>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>>>> bits I could >>>>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>>>> myself over >>>>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>>>> need to buy >>>>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>>>> as my >>>>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>>>> cane with >>>>>>>> a holster. >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>> Bennett >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>>>> parks, I >>>>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>>>> exit >>>>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>>>> are such >>>>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>>>> walk away, >>>>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>>>> My >>>>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>>>> it would be >>>>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>>>> this, because >>>>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>>>> back to >>>>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>>>> rides? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>>>> ms2 >>>>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>>> e%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>>> %40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:13:16 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:13:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Do any of you know if blio has solved the problem where lots of books couldn't be accessed with the higher quality TTS voices because it allegedly infringed on copyright? On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Voice Dream sounds awesome! I'll have to check it out too. > > Blio is really good. I'd definitely recommend that one too. > > Also, if you have a notetaker like a BrailleNote or BrailleSense with > a refreshable display you can use bluetooth to connect to your IPhone > and read that way with a make-shift braille display. > > On 4/2/13, Ashlee g wrote: >> cool i will look that up >> >> NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE >> >> On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:47, Jewel wrote: >> >>> Just a quick note, if you have aniDevice, another app is Voice Dream. >>> You can download books and many other documents (including >>> powerpoints) from Bookshare, Gutenberg, iTunes, DropBox, or the web >>> browser. It will read it using your preferred voice, each of which >>> costs $1.99 (and a very few cost $2.99). This is especially helpful if >>> you have foreign language documents because Voice Dream has a >>> plentitude of foreign voices from Spanish and French to Chinese and >>> Japanese. The voices are wonderful, and have made listening to school >>> documents much nicer for me, as well, of course, for books. >>> >>> I don't know much about reading e-books on the PC, but that's my >>> little spill about a great app for the iDevices. >>> >>> Good luck, >>> Jewel >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>> Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I >>>> have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for >>>> iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The >>>> app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is >>>> $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are >>>> really good. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "justin williams" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>> >>>> I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is >>>> accessible. They did >>>> a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you >>>> this was two >>>> years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for >>>> amazon >>>> books and anything else you bought. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Kerri Kosten >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>> >>>> Hi All: >>>> >>>> So, I love to read. >>>> What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? >>>> Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad >>>> app? >>>> I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I >>>> don't mind >>>> voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. >>>> I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, >>>> or listen to >>>> an audiobook. >>>> Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to >>>> purchase a >>>> book on it can you read it using Jaws? >>>> There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either >>>> Bookshare or BARD >>>> and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for >>>> only $2.99. >>>> What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? >>>> At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the >>>> PC using >>>> Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? >>>> I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a >>>> braille >>>> display but I currently don't have one. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>> ms2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Apr 2 20:31:47 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:31:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com><000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01ce2fe1$199d4f50$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, Taking a dog to an amusement park is very doable. It's a matter of keeping the dog's needs in mind along with your own. Some of this occurs automatically. You get hot and will seek an air conditioned place to cool off. Does the dog stay out in the hot sun? No. You want to cool off and if you enter an air conditioned place with your dog the dog goes with you. One problem solved. When traveling to any venue including amusement parks it's customary to take time out for a bite to eat or for a cold drink. Do the same for the dog. Problem number 2 solved. During your visit you must take time to visit the bathroom. Give the dog the same liberty in a designated place. This can be one you find on your own or in an area designated by the park as a dog relief area. Problem 3 solved. Visiting an amusement park can be kind of like a trip to the dentist particularly if your visit will involve sedation for your procedure. I had this honor last Saturday when four infected teeth were extracted. The oral surgeon insisted on sedating me for the procedure. Since he had to remove some bone to extract several teeth I'm glad I took his advice. I knew in advance this would happen and asked my wife Mary to come along. Since I knew I would not be in any condition to manage Johnny while my teeth were being removed I asked Mary to watch him. She took him to the waiting room before I went in to the operating room where the procedure was to be performed. This same scheme works quite well for managing a guide dog if you wish to ride thrill rides on which the dog cannot be restrained. Rollercoasters fall in to this category as do rides without a floor on which the dog can sit. Sorin at Disney World is such a ride. I found that I was able to get my dogs on many other rides without any trouble. When we visited Islands of Adventure two years ago he fell asleep on two of them in Seuss Landing. Like a trip to the dentist some advanced planning and considering the dog's needs can make a trip to a theme park with a guide dog very doable. But in the end it comes down to personal choice. If you don't want the extra hassle and bother don't take the dog. Just know that there are guide dog users that do take their dogs with them to theme parks and do it successfully. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Desiree Oudinot" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi Kurt, Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they should. I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Justin, > Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced > to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home > when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all > that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there > are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think > it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really > applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not > lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm > about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so > who am I to judge? > Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their > mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty > of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel > confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this > seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart > hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and > experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. > Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often > than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see > the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to > convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just > saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler > already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if > not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin > with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of > course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so > it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where > he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most > competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good > dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering > what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water > slides. :) > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> Cane, dog, what works. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >> center.) >> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>> uncomfortable >>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>> anyways. >>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>> broke down >>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>> boarding >>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>> operator if they >>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>> said, so I'll >>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>> different, so >>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>> perk and >>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>> disability or >>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>> farbeit from me >>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>> I feel >>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>> with >>> everybody else, you should. >>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>> caved in to >>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>> don't always >>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>> very >>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>> and it >>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>> before (if >>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>> That's >>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>> skipped in >>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>> but >>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>> need. >>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>> of things >>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>> if we aren't >>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>> isn't >>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>> _have_ to have >>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>> responsibility. >>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>> problems we >>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>> cheerfully (or >>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>> parks. I >>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>> to cut in >>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>> of a far, >>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>> we are >>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>> wouldn't >>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>> extended time for >>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>> unnecessary), >>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>> us, begging >>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>> yes, >>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>> really saying? >>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>> cane? >>> Interesting. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>> dog very >>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>> while >>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>> hours like >>> everyone else." >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> >>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>> user than >>> to a cane user? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Sarah Meeks >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>> They are very >>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>> a dog. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>> went twice >>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>> parents >>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>> sister >>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>> and not >>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>> with me the >>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>> When I went >>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>> Disney >>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>> with me or >>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>> water >>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>> rides which >>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>> cane you can >>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>> the cane >>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>> It won't >>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>> idea sounds >>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>> get worried >>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>> problems with >>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>> >>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>> the cane >>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>> the >>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Sophie, >>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>> if I was >>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>> I >>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>> of "social" >>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>> and to meet >>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>> problem, but I'll >>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>> or folding >>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>> big rides >>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>> ride >>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>> rides usually >>> start and end at the same place. >>> Waterslides >>> and things are different though, obviously. >>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>> bits I could >>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>> myself over >>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>> need to buy >>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>> for the >>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>> as my >>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>> cane with >>> a holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>> parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>> exit >>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>> are such >>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>> walk away, >>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>> My >>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>> it would be >>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>> this, because >>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>> be >>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>> back to >>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>> rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>> ms2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:33:49 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:33:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides Message-ID: Kurt, I won't try to discredit your experiences, since personal experience is about as subjective as anything can be. I'll explain how I came to the conclusion I described above, though, which is equally as subjective. When I was in high school, I had a mobility instructor who basically glorified the idea of having a guide dog in the way that you and others have described. She told me that a dog helps you become more confident in your travel skills, makes you stick out less, etc. I was very skeptical about everything she said, because, in my experience, whether you have a cane or dog, you're considered "different" by society, and, therefore, sticking out is just par for the course. So, even through her overzealous efforts to convert me to believing that a dog is the ultimate answer to every travel conundrum, she did tell me that no guide dog school would accept a person whose cane skills weren't great. In hindsight, I believe she was saying all this to put me down about my cane skills, which weren't that bad at all. my problem has always been visualizing maps in my head, in fact. Mobility instructors always plopped maps they made in front of me, turning them this way and that to try to get me to understand how the streets would look once you turned in a specific compass direction. That method of teaching confused the hell out of me. So, she started to believe I was a hopeless case, I guess. To this day, I still am primarily a route traveler, but I wonder sometimes if I really have as much of a faulty brain as I was told (she wanted to have me tested for learning disabilities, which my mom wouldn't hear of) or if I just didn't learn about cardinal directions and maps in such a way that I could understand. I should also point out that classes like geometry always completely baffled me, and when I was in elementary school, when we used to do geography and had to estimate how many miles or kilometers one place on a map was from another, I failed miserably. Anyway, one day this mobility instructor decided to do a guide dog simulation with me, to help convert me to her way of thinking, I suppose. I held onto a harness, and without any warning, she started flat-out running. When I asked her why, she said it was because all guide dogs and their handlers walk at a brisk pace. Fine, but I don't think they sprint as if they're trying to win the 50-yard dash! After I pointed this out, she got pretty snippy with me. Snide remarks about my travel skills became the order of the day from then on. So, what this taught me was that one had to live up to a high standard if they wanted to get a dog. I didn't want one, but, perhaps mistakenly, I believed this to be the case. This is why it was interesting for me to read your perspective, and watch this discussion unfold, because I honestly thought that all guide dog handlers were competent and confident travelers. Of course, as with everything else, there would have to be exceptions, and I did know of one lady in particular who worked her dog practically until the day it died, despite the dog developing severe arthritis. But, as i said, I thought that was so far out of the norm that I chalked it up to the lady being, shall we say, not a very nice person, as opposed to being so set in her ways that maybe she felt unable to travel without the dog she had come to depend on. On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Desiree, > I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different > people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have > minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go > to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident > cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and > knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond > that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you > like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my > mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so > forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, > regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to > me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as > well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any > specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I > know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. > I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand > that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility > skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, > I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and > following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel > like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't > have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I > can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's > fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student > seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such > and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I > politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I > changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. > With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS > giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over > there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after > staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked > back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few > harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later > I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I > certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines > are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally > different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how > incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, > it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good > cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would > probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted > to. > Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't > really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a > good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something > like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd > like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I > had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or > earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring > new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking > everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or > use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding > new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind > person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and > personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to > acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. > Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to > write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm > coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it > differently than I do. > All the best, > Kirt > > On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Hi Kurt, >> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >> should. >> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Justin, >>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>> who am I to judge? >>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>> slides. :) >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>> center.) >>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>> uncomfortable >>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>> anyways. >>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>> broke down >>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>> boarding >>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>> operator if they >>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>> said, so I'll >>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>> different, so >>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>> perk and >>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>> disability or >>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>> farbeit from me >>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>> I feel >>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>> with >>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>> caved in to >>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>> don't always >>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>> very >>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>> and it >>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>> before (if >>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>> That's >>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>> skipped in >>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>> but >>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>> need. >>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>> of things >>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>> if we aren't >>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>> isn't >>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>> _have_ to have >>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>> responsibility. >>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>> problems we >>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>> parks. I >>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>> to cut in >>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>> of a far, >>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>> we are >>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>> wouldn't >>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>> extended time for >>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>> unnecessary), >>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>> us, begging >>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>> yes, >>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>> really saying? >>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>> cane? >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>> dog very >>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>> while >>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>> hours like >>>>> everyone else." >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> >>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>> user than >>>>> to a cane user? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>> They are very >>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>> a dog. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>> went twice >>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>> parents >>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>> sister >>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>> and not >>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>> with me the >>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>> When I went >>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>> Disney >>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>> with me or >>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>> water >>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>> rides which >>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>> cane you can >>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>> the cane >>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>> It won't >>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>> idea sounds >>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>> get worried >>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>> problems with >>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>> the cane >>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>> the >>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Sophie, >>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>> if I was >>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>> I >>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>> of "social" >>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>> and to meet >>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>> or folding >>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>> big rides >>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>> ride >>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>> rides usually >>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>> Waterslides >>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>> bits I could >>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>> myself over >>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>> need to buy >>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>> for the >>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>> as my >>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>> cane with >>>>> a holster. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Cindy >>>>> Bennett >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>> parks, I >>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>> exit >>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>> are such >>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>> walk away, >>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>> My >>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>> it would be >>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>> >>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>> this, because >>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>> be >>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>> back to >>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>> >>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>> rides? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>> >>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>> ms2 >>>>> %40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Apr 2 21:18:23 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:18:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130402141543.01c9bd48@comcast.net> Good afternoon, Kirt, Such an excellent post! Must be the blastomite in us? At a risk of presuming... CarAt 12:05 PM 4/2/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Desiree, > I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. > I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >to. > Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. > Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >differently than I do. > All the best, >Kirt > >On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > > Hi Kurt, > > Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on > > to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane > > user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all > > that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around > > one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the > > things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several > > well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take > > precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can > > really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. > > now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for > > a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane > > skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing > > cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, > > simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the > > way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they > > should. > > I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created > > equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the > > Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, > > those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't > > surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they > > shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your > > dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go > > to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't > > really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. > > > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Justin, > >> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced > >> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home > >> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all > >> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there > >> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think > >> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really > >> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not > >> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm > >> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so > >> who am I to judge? > >> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their > >> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty > >> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel > >> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this > >> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart > >> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and > >> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. > >> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often > >> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see > >> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to > >> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just > >> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler > >> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if > >> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin > >> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of > >> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so > >> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where > >> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most > >> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good > >> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering > >> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water > >> slides. :) > >> Best, > >> Kirt > >> > >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Cane, dog, what works. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > >>> Manwaring > >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>> > >>> Sarah, > >>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get > >>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I > >>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next > >>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your > >>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I > >>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to > >>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted > >>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training > >>> center.) > >>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over > >>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers > >>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who > >>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the > >>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, > >>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog > >>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy > >>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for > >>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe > >>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my > >>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at > >>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. > >>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible > >>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, > >>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head > >>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent > >>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how > >>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a > >>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. > >>> Best, > >>> Kirt > >>> > >>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: > >>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out > >>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. > >>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised > >>>> for more than an hour inr 2. > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? > >>>> > >>>> Mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Sarah > >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>>> > >>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the > >>>> uncomfortable > >>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park > >>>> anyways. > >>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 > >>>> broke down > >>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. > >>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. > >>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate > >>>> boarding > >>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the > >>>> operator if they > >>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. > >>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>>> > >>>> Sarah, > >>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just > >>>> said, so I'll > >>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is > >>>> different, so > >>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra > >>>> perk and > >>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other > >>>> disability or > >>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so > >>>> farbeit from me > >>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and > >>>> I feel > >>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line > >>>> with > >>>> everybody else, you should. > >>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've > >>>> caved in to > >>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I > >>>> don't always > >>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe > >>>> very > >>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" > >>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, > >>>> and it > >>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines > >>>> before (if > >>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. > >>>> That's > >>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly > >>>> skipped in > >>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), > >>>> but > >>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real > >>>> need. > >>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage > >>>> of things > >>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, > >>>> if we aren't > >>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. > >>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, > >>>> isn't > >>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we > >>>> _have_ to have > >>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal > >>>> responsibility. > >>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger > >>>> problems we > >>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept > >>>> cheerfully (or > >>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement > >>>> parks. I > >>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay > >>>> to cut in > >>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative > >>>> of a far, > >>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that > >>>> we are > >>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We > >>>> wouldn't > >>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary > >>>> extended time for > >>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is > >>>> unnecessary), > >>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for > >>>> us, begging > >>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, > >>>> yes, > >>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're > >>>> really saying? > >>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. > >>>> Best, > >>>> Kirt > >>>> > >>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a > >>>> cane? > >>>> Interesting. > >>>> > >>>> Chris > >>>> > >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>>> Public Relations Committee > >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Sarah > >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>>> > >>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the > >>>> dog very > >>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it > >>>> while > >>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 > >>>> hours like > >>>> everyone else." > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>>> > >>>> Sarah, > >>>> > >>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog > >>>> user than > >>>> to a cane user? > >>>> > >>>> Chris > >>>> > >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>>> Public Relations Committee > >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Sarah Meeks > >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>>> > >>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > >>>> They are very > >>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have > >>>> a dog. > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > >>>> >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I > >>>> went twice > >>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > >>>> parents > >>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my > >>>> sister > >>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents > >>>> and not > >>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were > >>>> with me the > >>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. > >>>> When I went > >>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the > >>>> Disney > >>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it > >>>> with me or > >>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on > >>>> water > >>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean > >>>> rides which > >>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding > >>>> cane you can > >>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through > >>>> the cane > >>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. > >>>> It won't > >>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster > >>>> idea sounds > >>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks > >>>> get worried > >>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any > >>>> problems with > >>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > >>>> > >>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with > >>>> the cane > >>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > >>>> the > >>>> second time and they were very accomodating. > >>>> > >>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>>> Sophie, > >>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone > >>>> if I was > >>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > >>>> I > >>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds > >>>> of "social" > >>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up > >>>> and to meet > >>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > >>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no > >>>> problem, but I'll > >>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > >>>> or folding > >>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or > >>>> big rides > >>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the > >>>> ride > >>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those > >>>> rides usually > >>>> start and end at the same place. > >>>> Waterslides > >>>> and things are different though, obviously. > >>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful > >>>> bits I could > >>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > >>>> myself over > >>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I > >>>> need to buy > >>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine > >>>> for the > >>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not > >>>> as my > >>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > >>>> Best, > >>>> Kirt > >>>> > >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > >>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding > >>>> cane with > >>>> a holster. > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Cindy > >>>> Bennett > >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > >>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students > >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > >>>> > >>>> Hi everyone, > >>>> > >>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme > >>>> parks, I > >>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the > >>>> exit > >>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides > >>>> are such > >>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a > >>>> walk away, > >>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. > >>>> My > >>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that > >>>> it would be > >>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > >>>> > >>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for > >>>> this, because > >>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just > >>>> be > >>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me > >>>> back to > >>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > >>>> > >>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water > >>>> rides? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Cindy Bennett > >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > >>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > >>>> > >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > >>>> ms2 > >>>> %40gmail > >>>> .com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > >>>> e%4 > >>>> 0gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>> t104 > >>>> %40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kaiti > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > >>>> %40gm > >>>> ail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>>> m%40gmail.c > >>>> om > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > >>>> %40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>>> m%40gmail.c > >>>> om > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > >>>> e%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > >>>> %40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix > >>>> .com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > >>>> %40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 21:42:18 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:42:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I believe that bug has been fixed as of the latest version of blio, but I'm not sure. Sophie Trist Sent from my iPhone On Apr 2, 2013, at 3:13 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Do any of you know if blio has solved the problem where lots of books > couldn't be accessed with the higher quality TTS voices because it > allegedly infringed on copyright? > > On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Voice Dream sounds awesome! I'll have to check it out too. >> >> Blio is really good. I'd definitely recommend that one too. >> >> Also, if you have a notetaker like a BrailleNote or BrailleSense with >> a refreshable display you can use bluetooth to connect to your IPhone >> and read that way with a make-shift braille display. >> >> On 4/2/13, Ashlee g wrote: >>> cool i will look that up >>> >>> NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE >>> >>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:47, Jewel wrote: >>> >>>> Just a quick note, if you have aniDevice, another app is Voice Dream. >>>> You can download books and many other documents (including >>>> powerpoints) from Bookshare, Gutenberg, iTunes, DropBox, or the web >>>> browser. It will read it using your preferred voice, each of which >>>> costs $1.99 (and a very few cost $2.99). This is especially helpful if >>>> you have foreign language documents because Voice Dream has a >>>> plentitude of foreign voices from Spanish and French to Chinese and >>>> Japanese. The voices are wonderful, and have made listening to school >>>> documents much nicer for me, as well, of course, for books. >>>> >>>> I don't know much about reading e-books on the PC, but that's my >>>> little spill about a great app for the iDevices. >>>> >>>> Good luck, >>>> Jewel >>>> >>>> On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>> Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I >>>>> have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for >>>>> iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The >>>>> app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is >>>>> $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are >>>>> really good. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "justin williams" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>>> >>>>> I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is >>>>> accessible. They did >>>>> a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you >>>>> this was two >>>>> years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for >>>>> amazon >>>>> books and anything else you bought. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Kerri Kosten >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>>> >>>>> Hi All: >>>>> >>>>> So, I love to read. >>>>> What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? >>>>> Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad >>>>> app? >>>>> I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I >>>>> don't mind >>>>> voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. >>>>> I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, >>>>> or listen to >>>>> an audiobook. >>>>> Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to >>>>> purchase a >>>>> book on it can you read it using Jaws? >>>>> There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either >>>>> Bookshare or BARD >>>>> and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for >>>>> only $2.99. >>>>> What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? >>>>> At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the >>>>> PC using >>>>> Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? >>>>> I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a >>>>> braille >>>>> display but I currently don't have one. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>> ms2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 23:32:43 2013 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 19:32:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Guys: Okay, this may sound dumb, but I guess I am so used to the Jaws/elloquence voice that if I am going to use a voice to read I prefer the Jaws/elloquence voice. With either Dreamreader are elloquence voices one of the options to choose from? What about with Blio? As of right now, the only notetaker I have is the Pacmate lol. So, unfortunately I can't connect a braille display. I want to get hte Braille Sense U2. I'm glad to know others use Blio. I wasn't sure if people still used it lol. It looks good, and it seems to have books at good prices. Thanks, Kerri On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > I believe that bug has been fixed as of the latest version of blio, but I'm > not sure. > > Sophie Trist > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 2, 2013, at 3:13 PM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > >> Do any of you know if blio has solved the problem where lots of books >> couldn't be accessed with the higher quality TTS voices because it >> allegedly infringed on copyright? >> >> On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Voice Dream sounds awesome! I'll have to check it out too. >>> >>> Blio is really good. I'd definitely recommend that one too. >>> >>> Also, if you have a notetaker like a BrailleNote or BrailleSense with >>> a refreshable display you can use bluetooth to connect to your IPhone >>> and read that way with a make-shift braille display. >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Ashlee g wrote: >>>> cool i will look that up >>>> >>>> NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE >>>> >>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:47, Jewel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just a quick note, if you have aniDevice, another app is Voice Dream. >>>>> You can download books and many other documents (including >>>>> powerpoints) from Bookshare, Gutenberg, iTunes, DropBox, or the web >>>>> browser. It will read it using your preferred voice, each of which >>>>> costs $1.99 (and a very few cost $2.99). This is especially helpful if >>>>> you have foreign language documents because Voice Dream has a >>>>> plentitude of foreign voices from Spanish and French to Chinese and >>>>> Japanese. The voices are wonderful, and have made listening to school >>>>> documents much nicer for me, as well, of course, for books. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know much about reading e-books on the PC, but that's my >>>>> little spill about a great app for the iDevices. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck, >>>>> Jewel >>>>> >>>>> On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>> Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I >>>>>> have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for >>>>>> iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The >>>>>> app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is >>>>>> $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are >>>>>> really good. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "justin williams" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>>>> >>>>>> I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is >>>>>> accessible. They did >>>>>> a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you >>>>>> this was two >>>>>> years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for >>>>>> amazon >>>>>> books and anything else you bought. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Kerri Kosten >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi All: >>>>>> >>>>>> So, I love to read. >>>>>> What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? >>>>>> Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad >>>>>> app? >>>>>> I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I >>>>>> don't mind >>>>>> voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. >>>>>> I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, >>>>>> or listen to >>>>>> an audiobook. >>>>>> Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to >>>>>> purchase a >>>>>> book on it can you read it using Jaws? >>>>>> There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either >>>>>> Bookshare or BARD >>>>>> and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for >>>>>> only $2.99. >>>>>> What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? >>>>>> At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the >>>>>> PC using >>>>>> Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? >>>>>> I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a >>>>>> braille >>>>>> display but I currently don't have one. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Kerri >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>> ms2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 23:37:15 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 17:37:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I think that the need to be with your guide dog all the time is just when you first get the dog, so you and the dog can bond and connect. I know many guide dog users who are fine leaving their dogs behind at home in somebody else's care once they and the dog have gotten used to each other and been working together for a while. I too have heard that guide dog schools require a certain level of travel skills before students can enter their classes. We have to remember that "cane skills" isn't just for when the dog isn't around. A lot of it is basic orientation and mobility which is equally important whether you use a cane or a guide dog. If you don't know when to cross the street, or how to reverse a route, a dog usually won't be much help. In fact, that's one of the reasons I've chosen not to get a dog. I'm not the greatest traveler and, in particular, can get distracted pretty easily while walking. I'd be concerned that if I went with a dog, I might space out and just follow the dog which could result in both of us getting lost and frustrated on a regular basis. I find using a cane doesn't require much thought, at least not in familiar areas, and there's no risk of my cane getting an idea about where I might want to go and just taking me there. Also, I did a dog simulation and while the person in the harness didn't walk too fast, it bothered me that I didn't have advance warning of steps and had to completely trust the dog to stop instead of barreling me off a curb. I have met all kinds of travelers from both the cane and the dog camps, so I don't think it does much good to generalize about all dog travelers being better or worse than all cane travelers. I do think that working dogs has a whole set of dynamics that are quite different from using a cane. I, too, was pressured a lot to get a dog because of supposed social and safety benefits of having one. For a while, I was sure I would get a dog because I knew maybe one successful blind adult who used a cane and four or five who used dogs, so I thought that getting a dog was a rite of passage kind of like getting a driver's license. I ultimately decided against it because I didn't want the responsibility and the burden of having a living being depend on me. I think most happy dog users find this aspect a joy rather than a burden, but as someone who likes being alone, especially when I was younger, it was a definite deal-breaker for me. Desiree, your mobility instructor sounds pretty ignorant and just like a lousy teacher in general. Good teachers don't make snide comments to their students about their abilities or lack thereof. Also, plenty of blind folks have trouble deciphering tactile maps or mental-mapping new places. There are several different ways we can learn to travel and in my opinion, the best way to learn a place is to go out and be in it rather than just feeling lines on a map. Also, guide dogs do tend to move fast, but they don't necessarily have to. My understanding is the owner and dog can work together to find a pace that works for both of them. Arielle On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Kurt, > I won't try to discredit your experiences, since personal experience > is about as subjective as anything can be. I'll explain how I came to > the conclusion I described above, though, which is equally as > subjective. > When I was in high school, I had a mobility instructor who basically > glorified the idea of having a guide dog in the way that you and > others have described. She told me that a dog helps you become more > confident in your travel skills, makes you stick out less, etc. I was > very skeptical about everything she said, because, in my experience, > whether you have a cane or dog, you're considered "different" by > society, and, therefore, sticking out is just par for the course. So, > even through her overzealous efforts to convert me to believing that a > dog is the ultimate answer to every travel conundrum, she did tell me > that no guide dog school would accept a person whose cane skills > weren't great. In hindsight, I believe she was saying all this to put > me down about my cane skills, which weren't that bad at all. my > problem has always been visualizing maps in my head, in fact. Mobility > instructors always plopped maps they made in front of me, turning them > this way and that to try to get me to understand how the streets would > look once you turned in a specific compass direction. That method of > teaching confused the hell out of me. So, she started to believe I was > a hopeless case, I guess. To this day, I still am primarily a route > traveler, but I wonder sometimes if I really have as much of a faulty > brain as I was told (she wanted to have me tested for learning > disabilities, which my mom wouldn't hear of) or if I just didn't learn > about cardinal directions and maps in such a way that I could > understand. I should also point out that classes like geometry always > completely baffled me, and when I was in elementary school, when we > used to do geography and had to estimate how many miles or kilometers > one place on a map was from another, I failed miserably. > Anyway, one day this mobility instructor decided to do a guide dog > simulation with me, to help convert me to her way of thinking, I > suppose. I held onto a harness, and without any warning, she started > flat-out running. When I asked her why, she said it was because all > guide dogs and their handlers walk at a brisk pace. Fine, but I don't > think they sprint as if they're trying to win the 50-yard dash! After > I pointed this out, she got pretty snippy with me. Snide remarks about > my travel skills became the order of the day from then on. > So, what this taught me was that one had to live up to a high standard > if they wanted to get a dog. I didn't want one, but, perhaps > mistakenly, I believed this to be the case. This is why it was > interesting for me to read your perspective, and watch this discussion > unfold, because I honestly thought that all guide dog handlers were > competent and confident travelers. Of course, as with everything else, > there would have to be exceptions, and I did know of one lady in > particular who worked her dog practically until the day it died, > despite the dog developing severe arthritis. But, as i said, I thought > that was so far out of the norm that I chalked it up to the lady > being, shall we say, not a very nice person, as opposed to being so > set in her ways that maybe she felt unable to travel without the dog > she had come to depend on. > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Desiree, >> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >> to. >> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >> differently than I do. >> All the best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>> Hi Kurt, >>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >>> should. >>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Justin, >>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>>> who am I to judge? >>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>> slides. :) >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>> Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>> center.) >>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>> anyways. >>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>> broke down >>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>> boarding >>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>> operator if they >>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>> different, so >>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>> perk and >>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>> disability or >>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>> I feel >>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>> with >>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>> caved in to >>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>> don't always >>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>> very >>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>> and it >>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>> before (if >>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>> That's >>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>> skipped in >>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>> but >>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>> need. >>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>> of things >>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>> isn't >>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>> problems we >>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>> parks. I >>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>> to cut in >>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>> of a far, >>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>> we are >>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>> extended time for >>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>> us, begging >>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>> yes, >>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>> really saying? >>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>> cane? >>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>> dog very >>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>> while >>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>> hours like >>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> >>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>> user than >>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>> They are very >>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>> a dog. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>> went twice >>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>> parents >>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>> sister >>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>> and not >>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>> with me the >>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>> When I went >>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>> Disney >>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>> with me or >>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>> water >>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>> rides which >>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>> cane you can >>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>> the cane >>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>> It won't >>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>> get worried >>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>> problems with >>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>> the cane >>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>> the >>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>> if I was >>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>> I >>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>> of "social" >>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>> and to meet >>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>> or folding >>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>> big rides >>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>> ride >>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>> rides usually >>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>> bits I could >>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>> myself over >>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>> need to buy >>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>> for the >>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>> as my >>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>> cane with >>>>>> a holster. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Cindy >>>>>> Bennett >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>> parks, I >>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>> exit >>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>> are such >>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>> walk away, >>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>> My >>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>> it would be >>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>> this, because >>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>> be >>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>> back to >>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>> >>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>> rides? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>> >>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>> ms2 >>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>> e%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 00:07:09 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 20:07:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Exactly. I agree with Arielle. When I did a juno walk the pace was right around where I typically walk. Granted, I tend to walk kind of quickly even when I have a cane just because that's my personal pace, but there shouldn't be a huge difference and if your instructor really thought there would be it was a definite misconception. I also know some guide dog teams who move really slowly because the handler sgives the dog commands to slow down, so just because you have a dog it doesn't mean you will have to move at the speed of light. On 4/2/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > I think that the need to be with your guide dog all the time is just > when you first get the dog, so you and the dog can bond and connect. I > know many guide dog users who are fine leaving their dogs behind at > home in somebody else's care once they and the dog have gotten used to > each other and been working together for a while. > I too have heard that guide dog schools require a certain level of > travel skills before students can enter their classes. We have to > remember that "cane skills" isn't just for when the dog isn't around. > A lot of it is basic orientation and mobility which is equally > important whether you use a cane or a guide dog. If you don't know > when to cross the street, or how to reverse a route, a dog usually > won't be much help. In fact, that's one of the reasons I've chosen not > to get a dog. I'm not the greatest traveler and, in particular, can > get distracted pretty easily while walking. I'd be concerned that if I > went with a dog, I might space out and just follow the dog which could > result in both of us getting lost and frustrated on a regular basis. I > find using a cane doesn't require much thought, at least not in > familiar areas, and there's no risk of my cane getting an idea about > where I might want to go and just taking me there. Also, I did a dog > simulation and while the person in the harness didn't walk too fast, > it bothered me that I didn't have advance warning of steps and had to > completely trust the dog to stop instead of barreling me off a curb. > I have met all kinds of travelers from both the cane and the dog > camps, so I don't think it does much good to generalize about all dog > travelers being better or worse than all cane travelers. I do think > that working dogs has a whole set of dynamics that are quite different > from using a cane. I, too, was pressured a lot to get a dog because of > supposed social and safety benefits of having one. For a while, I was > sure I would get a dog because I knew maybe one successful blind adult > who used a cane and four or five who used dogs, so I thought that > getting a dog was a rite of passage kind of like getting a driver's > license. I ultimately decided against it because I didn't want the > responsibility and the burden of having a living being depend on me. I > think most happy dog users find this aspect a joy rather than a > burden, but as someone who likes being alone, especially when I was > younger, it was a definite deal-breaker for me. > Desiree, your mobility instructor sounds pretty ignorant and just like > a lousy teacher in general. Good teachers don't make snide comments to > their students about their abilities or lack thereof. Also, plenty of > blind folks have trouble deciphering tactile maps or mental-mapping > new places. There are several different ways we can learn to travel > and in my opinion, the best way to learn a place is to go out and be > in it rather than just feeling lines on a map. Also, guide dogs do > tend to move fast, but they don't necessarily have to. My > understanding is the owner and dog can work together to find a pace > that works for both of them. > Arielle > > On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Kurt, >> I won't try to discredit your experiences, since personal experience >> is about as subjective as anything can be. I'll explain how I came to >> the conclusion I described above, though, which is equally as >> subjective. >> When I was in high school, I had a mobility instructor who basically >> glorified the idea of having a guide dog in the way that you and >> others have described. She told me that a dog helps you become more >> confident in your travel skills, makes you stick out less, etc. I was >> very skeptical about everything she said, because, in my experience, >> whether you have a cane or dog, you're considered "different" by >> society, and, therefore, sticking out is just par for the course. So, >> even through her overzealous efforts to convert me to believing that a >> dog is the ultimate answer to every travel conundrum, she did tell me >> that no guide dog school would accept a person whose cane skills >> weren't great. In hindsight, I believe she was saying all this to put >> me down about my cane skills, which weren't that bad at all. my >> problem has always been visualizing maps in my head, in fact. Mobility >> instructors always plopped maps they made in front of me, turning them >> this way and that to try to get me to understand how the streets would >> look once you turned in a specific compass direction. That method of >> teaching confused the hell out of me. So, she started to believe I was >> a hopeless case, I guess. To this day, I still am primarily a route >> traveler, but I wonder sometimes if I really have as much of a faulty >> brain as I was told (she wanted to have me tested for learning >> disabilities, which my mom wouldn't hear of) or if I just didn't learn >> about cardinal directions and maps in such a way that I could >> understand. I should also point out that classes like geometry always >> completely baffled me, and when I was in elementary school, when we >> used to do geography and had to estimate how many miles or kilometers >> one place on a map was from another, I failed miserably. >> Anyway, one day this mobility instructor decided to do a guide dog >> simulation with me, to help convert me to her way of thinking, I >> suppose. I held onto a harness, and without any warning, she started >> flat-out running. When I asked her why, she said it was because all >> guide dogs and their handlers walk at a brisk pace. Fine, but I don't >> think they sprint as if they're trying to win the 50-yard dash! After >> I pointed this out, she got pretty snippy with me. Snide remarks about >> my travel skills became the order of the day from then on. >> So, what this taught me was that one had to live up to a high standard >> if they wanted to get a dog. I didn't want one, but, perhaps >> mistakenly, I believed this to be the case. This is why it was >> interesting for me to read your perspective, and watch this discussion >> unfold, because I honestly thought that all guide dog handlers were >> competent and confident travelers. Of course, as with everything else, >> there would have to be exceptions, and I did know of one lady in >> particular who worked her dog practically until the day it died, >> despite the dog developing severe arthritis. But, as i said, I thought >> that was so far out of the norm that I chalked it up to the lady >> being, shall we say, not a very nice person, as opposed to being so >> set in her ways that maybe she felt unable to travel without the dog >> she had come to depend on. >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Desiree, >>> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >>> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >>> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >>> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >>> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >>> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >>> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >>> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >>> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >>> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >>> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >>> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >>> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >>> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >>> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >>> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >>> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >>> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >>> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >>> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >>> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >>> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >>> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >>> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >>> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >>> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >>> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >>> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >>> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >>> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >>> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >>> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >>> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >>> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >>> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >>> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >>> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >>> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >>> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >>> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >>> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >>> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >>> to. >>> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >>> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >>> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >>> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >>> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >>> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >>> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >>> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >>> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >>> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >>> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >>> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >>> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >>> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >>> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >>> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >>> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >>> differently than I do. >>> All the best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>>> Hi Kurt, >>>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >>>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >>>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >>>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >>>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >>>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >>>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >>>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >>>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >>>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >>>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >>>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >>>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >>>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >>>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >>>> should. >>>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >>>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >>>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >>>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >>>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >>>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >>>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >>>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >>>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >>>> >>>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Justin, >>>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>>>> who am I to judge? >>>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>>> slides. :) >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>> Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >>>>>> I >>>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >>>>>> next >>>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>>> center.) >>>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone >>>>>> else, >>>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might >>>>>> construe >>>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against >>>>>> competent >>>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>>> anyways. >>>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>>> broke down >>>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>>> boarding >>>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>>> operator if they >>>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>>> different, so >>>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>>> perk and >>>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>>> disability or >>>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>>> I feel >>>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>>> caved in to >>>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>>> don't always >>>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>>> and it >>>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>>> before (if >>>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>>> That's >>>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>>> skipped in >>>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>>> need. >>>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>>> of things >>>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>>> problems we >>>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>>> parks. I >>>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>>> to cut in >>>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>>> of a far, >>>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>>> we are >>>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>>> extended time for >>>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>>> us, begging >>>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>>> yes, >>>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>>> really saying? >>>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>>> cane? >>>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>>> dog very >>>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>>> while >>>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>>> hours like >>>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>>> user than >>>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>>> They are very >>>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>>> a dog. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>>> went twice >>>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>>> parents >>>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>>> sister >>>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>>> and not >>>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>>> with me the >>>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>>> When I went >>>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>>> Disney >>>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>>> with me or >>>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>>> water >>>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>>> rides which >>>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>>> cane you can >>>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>>> It won't >>>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>>> get worried >>>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>>> problems with >>>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>>> if I was >>>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>>> of "social" >>>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>>> and to meet >>>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>>> or folding >>>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>>> big rides >>>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>>> ride >>>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>>> rides usually >>>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>>> bits I could >>>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>>> myself over >>>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>>> need to buy >>>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>>> for the >>>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>>> as my >>>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>>> cane with >>>>>>> a holster. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>> Bennett >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>>> parks, I >>>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>>> exit >>>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>>> are such >>>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>>> walk away, >>>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>>> it would be >>>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>>> this, because >>>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>>> back to >>>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>>> rides? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>>> ms2 >>>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 00:09:44 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 20:09:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, If you prefer jaws you could also try the Bookshare Web reader, or download a brf file and open it in Duxberry, Openbook, FS Reader, or another similar software package and convert it to text. Jaws will just read the text generated by the file then. I know you said the book you're looking for isn't available on Bookshare, but for other books that are it would be worth trying. On 4/2/13, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi Guys: > > Okay, this may sound dumb, but I guess I am so used to the > Jaws/elloquence voice that if I am going to use a voice to read I > prefer the Jaws/elloquence voice. > With either Dreamreader are elloquence voices one of the options to choose > from? > What about with Blio? > As of right now, the only notetaker I have is the Pacmate lol. So, > unfortunately I can't connect a braille display. I want to get hte > Braille Sense U2. > I'm glad to know others use Blio. I wasn't sure if people still used it > lol. > It looks good, and it seems to have books at good prices. > Thanks, > Kerri > > On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> I believe that bug has been fixed as of the latest version of blio, but >> I'm >> not sure. >> >> Sophie Trist >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 2, 2013, at 3:13 PM, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >> >>> Do any of you know if blio has solved the problem where lots of books >>> couldn't be accessed with the higher quality TTS voices because it >>> allegedly infringed on copyright? >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Voice Dream sounds awesome! I'll have to check it out too. >>>> >>>> Blio is really good. I'd definitely recommend that one too. >>>> >>>> Also, if you have a notetaker like a BrailleNote or BrailleSense with >>>> a refreshable display you can use bluetooth to connect to your IPhone >>>> and read that way with a make-shift braille display. >>>> >>>> On 4/2/13, Ashlee g wrote: >>>>> cool i will look that up >>>>> >>>>> NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:47, Jewel wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just a quick note, if you have aniDevice, another app is Voice Dream. >>>>>> You can download books and many other documents (including >>>>>> powerpoints) from Bookshare, Gutenberg, iTunes, DropBox, or the web >>>>>> browser. It will read it using your preferred voice, each of which >>>>>> costs $1.99 (and a very few cost $2.99). This is especially helpful >>>>>> if >>>>>> you have foreign language documents because Voice Dream has a >>>>>> plentitude of foreign voices from Spanish and French to Chinese and >>>>>> Japanese. The voices are wonderful, and have made listening to school >>>>>> documents much nicer for me, as well, of course, for books. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know much about reading e-books on the PC, but that's my >>>>>> little spill about a great app for the iDevices. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck, >>>>>> Jewel >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/2/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>>> Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I >>>>>>> have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for >>>>>>> iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The >>>>>>> app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is >>>>>>> $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are >>>>>>> really good. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "justin williams" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is >>>>>>> accessible. They did >>>>>>> a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you >>>>>>> this was two >>>>>>> years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for >>>>>>> amazon >>>>>>> books and anything else you bought. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Kerri Kosten >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, I love to read. >>>>>>> What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? >>>>>>> Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad >>>>>>> app? >>>>>>> I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I >>>>>>> don't mind >>>>>>> voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. >>>>>>> I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, >>>>>>> or listen to >>>>>>> an audiobook. >>>>>>> Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to >>>>>>> purchase a >>>>>>> book on it can you read it using Jaws? >>>>>>> There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either >>>>>>> Bookshare or BARD >>>>>>> and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for >>>>>>> only $2.99. >>>>>>> What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? >>>>>>> At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the >>>>>>> PC using >>>>>>> Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? >>>>>>> I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a >>>>>>> braille >>>>>>> display but I currently don't have one. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>>> ms2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 00:23:25 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 20:23:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130402141543.01c9bd48@comcast.net> References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130402141543.01c9bd48@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Kirt, I had a great mobility instructor who emphasized the same point of knowing who to ask without looking lost, and as you can imagine this point in some cases can especially important for a girl like when it's late at night or if the area might not be the best. I want to get a gps though because I don't really know the city well and wouldn't have the peace of mind to just go. Although I don't think my cane skills would be the issue, I would probably worry too much about where I was going unless I had some indication that I was at least on the right track. I don't plan to be completely reliant on the gps, but I would have some issues going blindly off in a direction without some way of checking where I am. Another thing to consider is that you can't always garantee that other people will be around, or that they will always be good at giving verbal direction. Some people just aren't good at describing things, especially if they've never had experience with a blind person before, and it can get you into a scrape. For instance, I was on a lesson and we were doing an exercise which involved me finding an ice cream parlor without knowing much more than the name of the street it was on, the address, and a few surrounding businesses. As I was walking towards the parlor I stopped a guy who was taking a walk with what I assumed to be his kids. He told me the parlor was another two blocks away and if I crossed the parallel street and continued another three blocks it would be around there. I took his directions and ended up totally missing the ice cream parlor. I ended up going into a laundramat to get some more direction and the employees there told me I had walked a block too far. It wasn't the guy's fault he gave faulty directions; he was just asked to describe somethign off the cuff and probably had never had experience with a blind person before. nevertheless, my teacher questioned why I didn't check my source or use my own judgement before passing it. (The store next to the ice cream shop was a KFC, but I guess I didn't smell the chicken in my haste to walk three blocks). Anyway, I would just rather have that peace of mind for backup. On 4/2/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good afternoon, Kirt, > > Such an excellent post! Must be the blastomite in us? > At a risk of presuming... CarAt 12:05 PM 4/2/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>Desiree, >> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >>people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >>minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >>to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >>cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >>knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >>that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >>like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >>mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >>forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >>regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >>me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >>well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >>specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >>know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >>that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >>skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >>I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >>following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >>like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >>have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >>can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >>fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >>seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >>and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >>politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >>changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >>With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >>giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >>there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >>staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >>back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >>harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >>I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >>certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >>are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >>different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >>incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >>it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >>cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >>probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >>to. >> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >>really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >>good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >>like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >>like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >>had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >>earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >>new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >>everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >>use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >>new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >>person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >>personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >>acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >>write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >>coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >>differently than I do. >> All the best, >>Kirt >> >>On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> > Hi Kurt, >> > Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >> > to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >> > user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >> > that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >> > one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >> > things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >> > well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >> > precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >> > really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >> > now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >> > a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >> > skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >> > cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >> > simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >> > way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >> > should. >> > I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >> > equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >> > Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >> > those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >> > surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >> > shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >> > dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >> > to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >> > really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >> > >> > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> Justin, >> >> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >> >> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >> >> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >> >> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >> >> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >> >> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >> >> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >> >> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >> >> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >> >> who am I to judge? >> >> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >> >> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >> >> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >> >> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >> >> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >> >> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >> >> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >> >> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >> >> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >> >> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >> >> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >> >> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >> >> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >> >> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >> >> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >> >> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >> >> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >> >> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >> >> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >> >> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >> >> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >> >> slides. :) >> >> Best, >> >> Kirt >> >> >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> >>> Cane, dog, what works. >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> >>> Manwaring >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>> >> >>> Sarah, >> >>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >> >>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >> >>> I >> >>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >> >>> next >> >>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >> >>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >> >>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >> >>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I >> >>> wanted >> >>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >> >>> center.) >> >>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >> >>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >> >>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >> >>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >> >>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone >> >>> else, >> >>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >> >>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >> >>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >> >>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might >> >>> construe >> >>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >> >>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >> >>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >> >>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >> >>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >> >>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >> >>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against >> >>> competent >> >>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >> >>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >> >>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >> >>> Best, >> >>> Kirt >> >>> >> >>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >> >>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >> >>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >> >>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >> >>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" > >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>> > >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >> >>>> >> >>>> Mike >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Sarah >> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >> >>>> uncomfortable >> >>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >> >>>> anyways. >> >>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >> >>>> broke down >> >>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >> >>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >> >>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >> >>>> boarding >> >>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >> >>>> operator if they >> >>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >> >>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> > >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Sarah, >> >>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >> >>>> said, so I'll >> >>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >> >>>> different, so >> >>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >> >>>> perk and >> >>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >> >>>> disability or >> >>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >> >>>> farbeit from me >> >>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >> >>>> I feel >> >>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >> >>>> with >> >>>> everybody else, you should. >> >>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >> >>>> caved in to >> >>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >> >>>> don't always >> >>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >> >>>> very >> >>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >> >>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >> >>>> and it >> >>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >> >>>> before (if >> >>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >> >>>> That's >> >>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >> >>>> skipped in >> >>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >> >>>> but >> >>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >> >>>> need. >> >>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >> >>>> of things >> >>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >> >>>> if we aren't >> >>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >> >>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >> >>>> isn't >> >>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >> >>>> _have_ to have >> >>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >> >>>> responsibility. >> >>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >> >>>> problems we >> >>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >> >>>> cheerfully (or >> >>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >> >>>> parks. I >> >>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >> >>>> to cut in >> >>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >> >>>> of a far, >> >>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >> >>>> we are >> >>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >> >>>> wouldn't >> >>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >> >>>> extended time for >> >>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >> >>>> unnecessary), >> >>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >> >>>> us, begging >> >>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >> >>>> yes, >> >>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >> >>>> really saying? >> >>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >> >>>> Best, >> >>>> Kirt >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >> >>>> cane? >> >>>> Interesting. >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> >>>> Public Relations Committee >> >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Sarah >> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >> >>>> dog very >> >>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >> >>>> while >> >>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >> >>>> hours like >> >>>> everyone else." >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>> > >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Sarah, >> >>>> >> >>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >> >>>> user than >> >>>> to a cane user? >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> >>>> Public Relations Committee >> >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Sarah Meeks >> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >> >>>> They are very >> >>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >> >>>> a dog. >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> >> >>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> >>>> > >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi, >> >>>> >> >>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >> >>>> went twice >> >>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >> >>>> parents >> >>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >> >>>> sister >> >>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >> >>>> and not >> >>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >> >>>> with me the >> >>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >> >>>> When I went >> >>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >> >>>> Disney >> >>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >> >>>> with me or >> >>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >> >>>> water >> >>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >> >>>> rides which >> >>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >> >>>> cane you can >> >>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >> >>>> the cane >> >>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >> >>>> It won't >> >>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >> >>>> idea sounds >> >>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >> >>>> get worried >> >>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >> >>>> problems with >> >>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >> >>>> >> >>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >> >>>> the cane >> >>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >> >>>> the >> >>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>> Sophie, >> >>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >> >>>> if I was >> >>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >> >>>> I >> >>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >> >>>> of "social" >> >>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >> >>>> and to meet >> >>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> >>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >> >>>> problem, but I'll >> >>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >> >>>> or folding >> >>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >> >>>> big rides >> >>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >> >>>> ride >> >>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >> >>>> rides usually >> >>>> start and end at the same place. >> >>>> Waterslides >> >>>> and things are different though, obviously. >> >>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >> >>>> bits I could >> >>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >> >>>> myself over >> >>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >> >>>> need to buy >> >>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >> >>>> for the >> >>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >> >>>> as my >> >>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >> >>>> Best, >> >>>> Kirt >> >>>> >> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> >>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >> >>>> cane with >> >>>> a holster. >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Cindy >> >>>> Bennett >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> >>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi everyone, >> >>>> >> >>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >> >>>> parks, I >> >>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >> >>>> exit >> >>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >> >>>> are such >> >>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >> >>>> walk away, >> >>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >> >>>> My >> >>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >> >>>> it would be >> >>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >> >>>> this, because >> >>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >> >>>> be >> >>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >> >>>> back to >> >>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >> >>>> >> >>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >> >>>> rides? >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Cindy Bennett >> >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> >>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >>>> >> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> >>>> ms2 >> >>>> %40gmail >> >>>> .com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> >>>> e%4 >> >>>> 0gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> >>>> t104 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Kaiti >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> >>>> %40gm >> >>>> ail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> >>>> m%40gmail.c >> >>>> om >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> >>>> m%40gmail.c >> >>>> om >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> >>>> e%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> >>>> .com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> >>> om >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> >>> .com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 01:34:40 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:34:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com><000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <14D8547AA0B14F98A9E18507E0B89843@OwnerPC> Suzanne, Which park was this? I haven't been to parks in a long time. I used the blind privelege at Disney world. and got to go in the front of the line with my parents. As for canes, I cannot imagine bringing it on a ride except for maybe those sitting rides that go in a straight line with no turns; Turning can cause the cane to fly out of the ride. I would have someone hold my cane til I got off the ride and I certainly would not want a cane on a water ride since its wet. I think guides are the best option for parks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane but go to guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the exit. You have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every ride you can go up the exit and not wait in line. On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like > everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user than > to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went twice > as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my parents > also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my sister > was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and not > get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me the > entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I went > again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney > staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me or > holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water > rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides which > start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you > can > secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane > and > the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop > around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds > good, > although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about > it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the cane > too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the > second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was > traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of > "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to > meet > people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but > I'll > confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or > folding > cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides > like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride > attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually > start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I > could > glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over > the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy > another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the > year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my > primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with > a > holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit > side > of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that > you > get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from > the > place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would > be > a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because > I > know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, > because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe > holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 01:37:15 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:37:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Oh, does six flags have a way to cut in line? If so, I didn't know that. -----Original Message----- From: Julie McGinnity Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Hi everyone, I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in line at 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but as I got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those who are blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from doing so. I just didn't get it. Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take her to an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think I would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long period of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it seems Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't see why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure though. Haven't tried it. Lol Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their dogs while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's an option. On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, > self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves > by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as > a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to > see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very > upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods > of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in > the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically > handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real > favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want > to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal > people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much > to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time > we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining > from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of > normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly > necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem > hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more > to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I > also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's > letter of recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 01:40:10 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:40:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <515a5930.a3c9440a.2d28.1900@mx.google.com> References: <515a5930.a3c9440a.2d28.1900@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <26849D9352DB461F817C56314E8285A2@OwnerPC> what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know how you stand all those roller coasters. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie McGinnity wrote: Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mail.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 01:42:58 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:42:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: most amusement parks do have them. I never knew they existed at all until several years ago, though. I was dating a guy at the time who thought it was acceptable to use them. He and I, and my dad and sister went to Hershey park here in PA. He insisted that he and I should get these passes, although all three of us were extremely uncomfortable with that idea. I went along with it at the time because I didn't want to start a fight, but it took my dad and sister a long time to forgive me for it. On 4/2/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi, > Oh, does six flags have a way to cut in line? > If so, I didn't know that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Julie McGinnity > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi everyone, > > I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in line at > 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but as I > got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are > physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those who are > blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from doing so. > I just didn't get it. > > Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take her to > an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I > suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think I > would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long period > of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it seems > Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't see > why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure though. > Haven't tried it. Lol > > Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their dogs > while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's an > option. > > On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >> understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, >> self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves >> by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as >> a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to >> see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very >> upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods >> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in >> the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically >> handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real >> favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want >> to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal >> people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much >> to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time >> we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining >> from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >> normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly >> necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem >> hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more >> to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I >> also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >> letter of recommendation. >> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 01:53:50 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:53:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <362E1AB64BBF4969BA4EC468116395FF@OwnerPC> Hello, Oh, there's an iphone ap for reading with voices? Is this an ibook ap or something? I assumed you had to have voiceover read it to you like Kerri said. So there's other voices. Are there links to samples of them? I wonder who they are and what they sound like. Sophie, do you use these as opposed to voice over? And what books are we talking about? Ibooks or the nook ap? Is it human sounding with inflections? I prefer audio books or braille like Kerri does since the monotone speech of most synthesizers is just too hard to process for a long period of time. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 7:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are really good. ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com><000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> <14D8547AA0B14F98A9E18507E0B89843@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <011701ce300e$d27e48d0$777ada70$@panix.com> Ashley: Usually, you're strapped in if the ride gets seriously tilty. You can just strap the cane in with you. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 6:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Suzanne, Which park was this? I haven't been to parks in a long time. I used the blind privelege at Disney world. and got to go in the front of the line with my parents. As for canes, I cannot imagine bringing it on a ride except for maybe those sitting rides that go in a straight line with no turns; Turning can cause the cane to fly out of the ride. I would have someone hold my cane til I got off the ride and I certainly would not want a cane on a water ride since its wet. I think guides are the best option for parks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane but go to guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the exit. You have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every ride you can go up the exit and not wait in line. On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? > Interesting. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very > carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while > you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours > like everyone else." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Sarah, > > Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user > than to a cane user? > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah > Meeks > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. > They are very > accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went > twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my > parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and > my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our > parents and not get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction > and were with me the entire time, so there really wasn't a major need > for a cane. When I went again as an older kid though, I did have a > folding cane and the Disney staff was very good about either showing > me tricks to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to > me when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the > Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at > another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the > loop and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just > let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop around as much > as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds good, although > some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about it > coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting > the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. > > By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the > cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for > the second time and they were very accomodating. > > On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sophie, > I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I > was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. > I > know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of > "social" > things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to > meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. > Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but > I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible > or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters > or big rides like that, I've almost always just given my straight > cane to the ride attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, > but those rides usually start and end at the same place. > Waterslides > and things are different though, obviously. > Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I > could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks > myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the > motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I > actually liked mine for the year or so it lasted, but I used it > sparingly and certainly not as my primary cane.) Thanks, all, for > the help and suggewstions. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane > with a holster. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > Hi everyone, > > This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I > typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the > exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides > are such that you get on the ride in a different location, often > quite a walk away, from the place where you get off of the ride. > My > cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it > would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. > > I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, > because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would > just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me > back to these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. > > So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative > Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2 > %40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 02:03:34 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 22:03:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: <362E1AB64BBF4969BA4EC468116395FF@OwnerPC> References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> <362E1AB64BBF4969BA4EC468116395FF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1392631705591329078@unknownmsgid> Ashley, Are you referring to the read to go app from book share? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 2, 2013, at 9:54 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hello, > Oh, there's an iphone ap for reading with voices? > Is this an ibook ap or something? > I assumed you had to have voiceover read it to you like Kerri said. > > So there's other voices. Are there links to samples of them? I wonder who they are and what they sound like. > Sophie, do you use these as opposed to voice over? > And what books are we talking about? Ibooks or the nook ap? > Is it human sounding with inflections? I prefer audio books or braille like Kerri does since the monotone speech of most synthesizers is just too hard to process for a long period of time. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 7:30 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I > have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for > iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The > app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is > $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are > really good. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is > accessible. They did > a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you > this was two > years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for > amazon > books and anything else you bought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > Hi All: > > So, I love to read. > What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? > Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad > app? > I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I > don't mind > voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. > I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, > or listen to > an audiobook. > Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to > purchase a > book on it can you read it using Jaws? > There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either > Bookshare or BARD > and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for > only $2.99. > What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? > At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the > PC using > Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? > I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a > braille > display but I currently don't have one. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 02:25:26 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 20:25:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting that your dad and sister were opposed to using the passes. They're sighted, right? Or are they blind? I'm asking because I don't think I know a sighted person who truly understands the issues involved with taking the special passes. Plenty of sighted people respect my preference not to do it, but none have specifically stated opposition on their own. Arielle On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > most amusement parks do have them. I never knew they existed at all > until several years ago, though. I was dating a guy at the time who > thought it was acceptable to use them. He and I, and my dad and sister > went to Hershey park here in PA. He insisted that he and I should get > these passes, although all three of us were extremely uncomfortable > with that idea. I went along with it at the time because I didn't want > to start a fight, but it took my dad and sister a long time to forgive > me for it. > > On 4/2/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi, >> Oh, does six flags have a way to cut in line? >> If so, I didn't know that. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Julie McGinnity >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in line at >> 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but as I >> got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are >> physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those who are >> blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from doing so. >> I just didn't get it. >> >> Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take her to >> an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I >> suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think I >> would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long period >> of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it seems >> Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't see >> why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure though. >> Haven't tried it. Lol >> >> Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their dogs >> while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's an >> option. >> >> On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >>> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>> understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, >>> self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves >>> by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as >>> a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to >>> see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very >>> upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods >>> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in >>> the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically >>> handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real >>> favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want >>> to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal >>> people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much >>> to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time >>> we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining >>> from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >>> normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly >>> necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem >>> hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more >>> to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I >>> also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >>> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >>> letter of recommendation. >>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Wed Apr 3 02:37:56 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 19:37:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: <14D8547AA0B14F98A9E18507E0B89843@OwnerPC> References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> <14D8547AA0B14F98A9E18507E0B89843@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Six Flags north of Chicago It was a few years back. On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Suzanne, > Which park was this? I haven't been to parks in a long time. I used the > blind privelege at Disney world. > and got to go in the front of the line with my parents. > > As for canes, I cannot imagine bringing it on a ride except for maybe > those sitting rides that go in a straight line with no turns; Turning can > cause the cane to fly out of the ride. I would have someone hold my cane > til I got off the ride and I certainly would not want a cane on a water > ride since its wet. > > I think guides are the best option for parks. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:25 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides > > That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane but go to > guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the exit. You > have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every ride you can > go up the exit and not wait in line. > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum ** > wrote: > > So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? >> Interesting. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >> On Behalf Of Sarah >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very >> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while >> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like >> everyone else." >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Sarah, >> >> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user than >> to a cane user? >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >> On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >> They are very >> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went twice >> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my parents >> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my sister >> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and not >> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me the >> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I went >> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney >> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me or >> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water >> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides which >> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you >> can >> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane >> and >> the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't flop >> around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds >> good, >> although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried about >> it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with getting >> the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >> >> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the cane >> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the >> second time and they were very accomodating. >> >> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Sophie, >> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was >> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >> I >> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of >> "social" >> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to meet >> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but I'll >> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or >> folding >> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides >> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride >> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually >> start and end at the same place. >> Waterslides >> and things are different though, obviously. >> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I could >> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself over >> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to buy >> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the >> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my >> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane with >> a >> holster. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >> On Behalf Of Cindy >> Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >> side >> of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that >> you >> get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from >> the >> place where you get off of the ride. >> My >> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would >> be >> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >> >> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, because >> I >> know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be annoying, >> because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe >> holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >> >> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**justin.willia >> ms2 >> %40gmail >> .com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**kirt.crazydud >> e%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**coastergirl92 >> %40gm >> ail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> sgermano%40asu.edu >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 03:00:53 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 23:00:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi, Yes, they're sighted. To be honest, it surprised me, too. Their reasoning was that they didn't want to draw attention to themselves. They thought that they would have to endure dirty looks from people who watched us able-bodied folks waltzing to the front of the line when we had no business doing so. As you can see, they're a bit socially conscious, even though we all knew we would never see any of those people again. On 4/2/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Interesting that your dad and sister were opposed to using the passes. > They're sighted, right? Or are they blind? > I'm asking because I don't think I know a sighted person who truly > understands the issues involved with taking the special passes. Plenty > of sighted people respect my preference not to do it, but none have > specifically stated opposition on their own. > Arielle > > On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> most amusement parks do have them. I never knew they existed at all >> until several years ago, though. I was dating a guy at the time who >> thought it was acceptable to use them. He and I, and my dad and sister >> went to Hershey park here in PA. He insisted that he and I should get >> these passes, although all three of us were extremely uncomfortable >> with that idea. I went along with it at the time because I didn't want >> to start a fight, but it took my dad and sister a long time to forgive >> me for it. >> >> On 4/2/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi, >>> Oh, does six flags have a way to cut in line? >>> If so, I didn't know that. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Julie McGinnity >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in line at >>> 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but as I >>> got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are >>> physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those who are >>> blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from doing so. >>> I just didn't get it. >>> >>> Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take her to >>> an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I >>> suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think I >>> would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long period >>> of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it seems >>> Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't see >>> why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure though. >>> Haven't tried it. Lol >>> >>> Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their dogs >>> while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's an >>> option. >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>>> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >>>> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>>> understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, >>>> self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves >>>> by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as >>>> a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to >>>> see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very >>>> upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods >>>> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in >>>> the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically >>>> handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real >>>> favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want >>>> to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal >>>> people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much >>>> to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time >>>> we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining >>>> from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >>>> normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly >>>> necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem >>>> hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more >>>> to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I >>>> also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >>>> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >>>> letter of recommendation. >>>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 05:20:21 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 23:20:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> <14D8547AA0B14F98A9E18507E0B89843@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, The best for you isn't necessarily the best for everyone. I know I've been really nit picky as of late but I'd say take care using words like "best" when you're dealing with a variety of people with a wide range of personal styles and preferences. I can say that, for me, having a guide is only best if it's a really crowded place and I don't want to get separated from a group...for you, it might be best more often. So, even though it probably sounds like I'm splitting hairs, I think it's important to consider. Best, (I just said best even though I just told you not to say it...I'm a hypocrite!), Kirt On 4/2/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > Six Flags north of Chicago > It was a few years back. > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Ashley Bramlett > wrote: > >> Suzanne, >> Which park was this? I haven't been to parks in a long time. I used the >> blind privelege at Disney world. >> and got to go in the front of the line with my parents. >> >> As for canes, I cannot imagine bringing it on a ride except for maybe >> those sitting rides that go in a straight line with no turns; Turning can >> cause the cane to fly out of the ride. I would have someone hold my cane >> til I got off the ride and I certainly would not want a cane on a water >> ride since its wet. >> >> I think guides are the best option for parks. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano >> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:25 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >> That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane but go to >> guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the exit. >> You >> have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every ride you >> can >> go up the exit and not wait in line. >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum >> ** >> wrote: >> >> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? >>> Interesting. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>> On Behalf Of Sarah >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very >>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while >>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like >>> everyone else." >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Sarah, >>> >>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user >>> than >>> to a cane user? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>> On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>> They are very >>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went >>> twice >>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>> parents >>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>> sister >>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and >>> not >>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me >>> the >>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I >>> went >>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney >>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me >>> or >>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water >>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides which >>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you >>> can >>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane >>> and >>> the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't >>> flop >>> around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds >>> good, >>> although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried >>> about >>> it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with >>> getting >>> the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>> >>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the >>> cane >>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the >>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>> >>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Sophie, >>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I was >>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>> I >>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of >>> "social" >>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to >>> meet >>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but >>> I'll >>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or >>> folding >>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big rides >>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride >>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides >>> usually >>> start and end at the same place. >>> Waterslides >>> and things are different though, obviously. >>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I >>> could >>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself >>> over >>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to >>> buy >>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for >>> the >>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my >>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane >>> with >>> a >>> holster. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>> On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >>> side >>> of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that >>> you >>> get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from >>> the >>> place where you get off of the ride. >>> My >>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it would >>> be >>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>> >>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>> because >>> I >>> know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be >>> annoying, >>> because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe >>> holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>> >>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**justin.willia >>> ms2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**kirt.crazydud >>> e%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**coastergirl92 >>> %40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**coastergirl92 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 05:31:13 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 23:31:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a3737.83d8420a.5b23.18c1@mx.google.com> <000d01ce2f43$faecf2b0$f0c6d810$@gmail.com> <14D8547AA0B14F98A9E18507E0B89843@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Kaiti, Again I'm going to be nitpicky so I expect you to take what I'm saying and do with it as you like. I seldom ask people things like "where is the ice cream parlor?" Instead, I much prefer, especially if I know the address of the place I'm looking for, to ask something like "what address are we at right now?", or "how many blocks down is Jefferson street?" That way, people don't really have to give directions at all, they just give you the information you need to give yourself directions and there's less of a chance they'll mess up...am I making any sense? Also, especially if you'll be using an iphone, it's more likely probably that your GPS will die before you run in to a situation where you can't flag someone down and get directions if you need them. Although I'm the kind of person who has no qualms about entering a random business and asking for its address or, if I'm really in dire straights, flagging down a driver and asking those same questions..so I'm sure my methods for getting information won't work for everyone, and that's fine. Don't get me wrong, I love using my GPS to get that same information without going out of my way to ask people for it. A GPS can certainly be a very useful tool; I'm not even saying you are wrong, I'm just saying why I think the way I do and feel free to ignore it all if you like. For me a GPS is kind of like having a debit or credit card; it's very convenient, but it can be over-used and I can get by just as well with cash if I need to. I know it's a stupid analogy but I'm tired, my brain hurts, so you'll have to forgive me. :) Best, Kirt On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ashley, > The best for you isn't necessarily the best for everyone. I know > I've been really nit picky as of late but I'd say take care using > words like "best" when you're dealing with a variety of people with a > wide range of personal styles and preferences. I can say that, for > me, having a guide is only best if it's a really crowded place and I > don't want to get separated from a group...for you, it might be best > more often. So, even though it probably sounds like I'm splitting > hairs, I think it's important to consider. > Best, > (I just said best even though I just told you not to say it...I'm a > hypocrite!), > Kirt > > On 4/2/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> Six Flags north of Chicago >> It was a few years back. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Ashley Bramlett >> wrote: >> >>> Suzanne, >>> Which park was this? I haven't been to parks in a long time. I used the >>> blind privelege at Disney world. >>> and got to go in the front of the line with my parents. >>> >>> As for canes, I cannot imagine bringing it on a ride except for maybe >>> those sitting rides that go in a straight line with no turns; Turning >>> can >>> cause the cane to fly out of the ride. I would have someone hold my cane >>> til I got off the ride and I certainly would not want a cane on a water >>> ride since its wet. >>> >>> I think guides are the best option for parks. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano >>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:25 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>> >>> That's interesting I am legally blind and don't use dog or cane but go >>> to >>> guest services and they give me a line pass so you can go up the exit. >>> You >>> have to wait one hour to go on the same ride again. But every ride you >>> can >>> go up the exit and not wait in line. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Chris Nusbaum >>> ** >>> wrote: >>> >>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a cane? >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>>> On Behalf Of Sarah >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog very >>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it while >>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 hours like >>>> everyone else." >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> >>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog user >>>> than >>>> to a cane user? >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>>> On Behalf Of Sarah Meeks >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>> They are very >>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have a dog. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I went >>>> twice >>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>> parents >>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>> sister >>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents and >>>> not >>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me >>>> the >>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. When I >>>> went >>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the Disney >>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it with me >>>> or >>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on water >>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean rides >>>> which >>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding cane you >>>> can >>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the >>>> cane >>>> and >>>> the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. It won't >>>> flop >>>> around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster idea sounds >>>> good, >>>> although some park personelle at other amusement parks get worried >>>> about >>>> it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any problems with >>>> getting >>>> the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>> >>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with the >>>> cane >>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for the >>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Sophie, >>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if I >>>> was >>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>> I >>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds of >>>> "social" >>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up and to >>>> meet >>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, but >>>> I'll >>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible or >>>> folding >>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or big >>>> rides >>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the ride >>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides >>>> usually >>>> start and end at the same place. >>>> Waterslides >>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful bits I >>>> could >>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks myself >>>> over >>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I need to >>>> buy >>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine for >>>> the >>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my >>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding cane >>>> with >>>> a >>>> holster. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>>> On Behalf Of Cindy >>>> Bennett >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme parks, I >>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the exit >>>> side >>>> of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides are such that >>>> you >>>> get on the ride in a different location, often quite a walk away, from >>>> the >>>> place where you get off of the ride. >>>> My >>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it >>>> would >>>> be >>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>> >>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>>> because >>>> I >>>> know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just be >>>> annoying, >>>> because I would have to rely on someone to guide me back to these shoe >>>> holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>> >>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water rides? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cindy Bennett >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**justin.willia >>>> ms2 >>>> %40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**kirt.crazydud >>>> e%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**crazy4clarine >>>> t104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**coastergirl92 >>>> %40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**coastergirl92 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 09:06:25 2013 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ignasi_Cambra_D=EDaz?=) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 05:06:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Message-ID: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Hello all, I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several occasions before but only for short periods of time. Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you! IC From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Wed Apr 3 09:40:49 2013 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (Leye-Shprintse) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 02:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Message-ID: <1364982049.55256.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> BS"D Kaiti, A guide dog is taught to see humans as obstacles when the harness is on therefore many guide dogs do not understand this with lines, my dog does not understand it. She gives me 'that look' when we are standing in lines because she does not understand why we cannot drive over them which are ahead of us. I only want to explain what is going on in many guide dogs' heads. Kind regards, Leye-Shprintse From wmodnl at hotmail.com Wed Apr 3 12:34:28 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:34:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good morning, Well, as a native New Yorker, I will give you my perspective. Of course, no two people will have the same experience. I wish you successful per suit of your future endeavor. Navigating around can be easy within Manhattan. Since people are always around, you will not have a hard time finding someone if you need assistance or you become disoriented as a result of the ever-changing environment. A few things you should know: The transit system is good with some flaws. For example, if bus drivers see you, they will be likely to announce routs and stops. The systems are not automated as they are here in Boston, nor are they required to have an automated system in-place. I was given the last peace of information second-hand, someone else may have a more accurate answer on that. Regarding the subway system, it is slowly advancing, more newer trains with clear announcements are being put in-place. Those are fixed routs that do not change unless the MTA decides to do construction. Remember to always have a back-up cane even if you travel with a guide dog. Also, always have an extra one if you use one. I have found that, if you are a guide dog user that access is more problematic when accessing public buildings or stores than in other places. I think this is due in-part to people bringing in pets who are not controlled. A word of caussion: Make sure your housing arrangements are set (on paper) if you have a guide dog and that all are aware. More buildings are "pet free", and they do not like to make exceptions. Quite honestly, you will be lucky if the people at the front desk let you in. NYC has some of the wealthiest people in the world. Of wich, who are completely ignorant to people with disabilities. Nor, do they ever want to be educated since "they have it all." I moved from NYC in early 2012; so, I do not know where things have changed. You will want to contact the local NFB chapter. You can do this by visiting: www.nfbny.org. Hope this helps. Have a great day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:08 AM, "Ignasi Cambra Díaz" wrote: > Hello all, > I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several occasions before but only for short periods of time. > Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. > Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > Thank you! > > IC > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 15:30:16 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:30:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ignasi, I've only visited on vacation for about a week and, from just that surface glance into the city, it made me really want to live somewhere with a transportation system that effective. Yes, the subway isn't a;lways automated and sometimes you have to ask people what stop you're at. Most streets are actually very narrow by the standards I'm used to, although still incredibly busy...which was actually nice, because there was never any doubt at all when you were supposed to cross. So, yeah, I'm sure William's post was much more informative...but there you go. Best, Kirt On 4/3/13, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > Good morning, > Well, as a native New Yorker, I will give you my perspective. Of course, no > two people will have the same experience. I wish you successful per suit of > your future endeavor. > Navigating around can be easy within Manhattan. Since people are always > around, you will not have a hard time finding someone if you need assistance > or you become disoriented as a result of the ever-changing environment. A > few things you should know: > The transit system is good with some flaws. For example, if bus drivers see > you, they will be likely to announce routs and stops. The systems are not > automated as they are here in Boston, nor are they required to have an > automated system in-place. I was given the last peace of information > second-hand, someone else may have a more accurate answer on that. > Regarding the subway system, it is slowly advancing, more newer trains with > clear announcements are being put in-place. Those are fixed routs that do > not change unless the MTA decides to do construction. > Remember to always have a back-up cane even if you travel with a guide dog. > Also, always have an extra one if you use one. I have found that, if you > are a guide dog user that access is more problematic when accessing public > buildings or stores than in other places. I think this is due in-part to > people bringing in pets who are not controlled. A word of caussion: > Make sure your housing arrangements are set (on paper) if you have a guide > dog and that all are aware. More buildings are "pet free", and they do not > like to make exceptions. Quite honestly, you will be lucky if the people at > the front desk let you in. NYC has some of the wealthiest people in the > world. Of wich, who are completely ignorant to people with disabilities. > Nor, do they ever want to be educated since "they have it all." > > I moved from NYC in early 2012; so, I do not know where things have changed. > You will want to contact the local NFB chapter. You can do this by > visiting: > www.nfbny.org. > Hope this helps. Have a great day. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:08 AM, "Ignasi Cambra Díaz" > wrote: > >> Hello all, >> I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things >> are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? >> How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in >> several occasions before but only for short periods of time. >> Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center >> Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know >> if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out >> how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go >> back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing >> with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and >> Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. >> Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. >> Thank you! >> >> IC >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ALewis at nfb.org Wed Apr 3 15:57:11 2013 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:57:11 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Blog Post: Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Message-ID: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D4964EEBA@SN2PRD0710MB383.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/fair-wages-workers-disabilities Blog Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 >From the 2012 Annual Report of the National Federation of the Blind The National Federation of the Blind is, at its core, a grassroots civil rights movement consisting of blind people, our family members, and friends. Our movement is founded on the principles of equality and full participation of blind people in every aspect of society. Although we have made significant strides toward achieving equality of opportunity, many barriers to our full participation as American citizens continue to exist. Most notable are the barriers that blind people face in our efforts to obtain competitive, integrated employment. Although laws prohibiting discrimination against people with disabilities in employment are in place, ignorance about the true employment capacity of the blind, lack of awareness about assistive work technologies among employers, the deficiency of proper educational and training opportunities for blind workers, and the overwhelmingly low vocational expectations for the blind held by society all contribute to an unemployment rate of over 70 percent for working age blind adults. Members of the NFB accept the responsibility and welcome the opportunity to play a part in developing strategies to address all of these issues effectively, but our ability to be successful is significantly hindered when we are denied the same fundamental rights as every other American citizen. In 1938, policymakers, acting on a laudable but misdirected desire to integrate people with disabilities into the workforce, implemented Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act, a provision that authorizes the U.S. Department of Labor to issue Special Wage Certificates to employers, permitting them to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. As a result of the erroneous belief, commonly held in 1938 but long since disproved, that people with disabilities cannot be productive employees, employers are permitted to pay workers with disabilities subminimum wages that are supposedly based on their productivity. This denial of fundamental wage protections to workers with disabilities, although masked as a compassionate offering of a work opportunity that would otherwise not be available, leaves over 300,000 people with disabilities employed at subminimum wages, some as low as three cents per hour. Members of the National Federation of the Blind are faced with over seventy years of institutionalized thinking that people with disabilities lack the ability to fully participate in the workplace, and we fight every day to demonstrate to the world that blind people have capacity. Because we have dared to believe in ourselves, today there are blind lawyers, doctors, engineers, teachers, members of the clergy, automobile mechanics, computer programmers, farmers, and more. The truth is that there are any number of jobs that match the unique skills, talents, interests and abilities of people with even the most significant disabilities. Moreover, assistive technology exists that allows people with disabilities to perform job tasks with the quality and efficiency of non-disabled employees. Although the diversity of jobs and the availability of assistive technology have made it possible for individuals with all disabilities to be productive employees, society's negative attitudes and low expectations continue to severely limit opportunities for competitive employment. And as long as it remains legal to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage, there will be those who exploit these misconceptions in order to justify employing workers with disabilities at subminimum wages, leaving hundreds of thousands of individuals in segregated work environments that are separate and unequal. Despite research demonstrating that segregated, subminimum wage work environments teach workers with disabilities obsolete skills and unproductive work habits that must be unlearned in order for them to become competitively employed, along with well-documented cases of subminimum wage employees working in poor conditions that are not acceptable in any modern workplace, advocates of Special Wage Certificates argue that the answer is simply better enforcement of compliance with current federal and state rules. But perpetuation of the current system is acquiescence in the face of discrimination. Slavery, the denial of the right to vote for women, and other forms of discrimination against classes of individuals based solely on a characteristic that the individuals possessed were once lawful. Society eventually realized that the only way to eliminate such discrimination is to make it unlawful. Section 14(c) of the FLSA, enacted out of ignorance about the true capacity of people with disabilities, is fundamentally morally wrong. The only way to correct this injustice is to repeal this discriminatory provision. In 2012, the National Federation of the Blind made significant progress toward achieving this goal. What started as our single voice calling to have the law changed has grown into a chorus of fifty organizations of people with disabilities making this demand. Eliminating subminimum wages was not part of the conversation about disability rights before we began to speak out, but by the end of 2012 the National Council on Disability, a federal agency that advises Congress and the President on disability issues, had issued a report recommending that subminimum wages be phased out. We are the voice of the nation's blind, and we will use our voice to speak out against people, policies, or programs that seek to exploit us or reduce us to a status of second class citizenship. We look forward to a day when all Americans have wage security, real opportunity, and true equality. Add your voice to ours by signing our online petition at: http://www.nfb.org/fair-wages-petition. For more information on this important issue, please visit www.nfb.org/fair-wages. Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Advocacy and Policy "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" http://www.nfb.org/fairwages NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org twitter: @anillife From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:13:56 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:13:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Also worth mentioning is that NYC is set up in a grid fashion for the most part. You might want to double check online or with someone like William who may know better, but I believe the even numbered streets run north and south and the odd go east to west. Broadway is the one exception to the rule and it runs diagnally across. I was only there for a small trip too, but I found the streets really easy to navigate since I could use the basic knowledge of how the grid was set up to get to places I wanted to go. The people are interesting. There is a good number of blind people in NYC, so some people are really helpful. Others are the stereotypical New Yorker who are constantly on the move, so they're sometimes not as helpful. It's just a matter of finding the right person to ask. Hope this helps, and if you will be attending Juilliard as I presume from your email, congratulations! On 4/3/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ignasi, > I've only visited on vacation for about a week and, from just that > surface glance into the city, it made me really want to live somewhere > with a transportation system that effective. Yes, the subway isn't > a;lways automated and sometimes you have to ask people what stop > you're at. Most streets are actually very narrow by the standards I'm > used to, although still incredibly busy...which was actually nice, > because there was never any doubt at all when you were supposed to > cross. So, yeah, I'm sure William's post was much more > informative...but there you go. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/3/13, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >> Good morning, >> Well, as a native New Yorker, I will give you my perspective. Of course, >> no >> two people will have the same experience. I wish you successful per suit >> of >> your future endeavor. >> Navigating around can be easy within Manhattan. Since people are always >> around, you will not have a hard time finding someone if you need >> assistance >> or you become disoriented as a result of the ever-changing environment. >> A >> few things you should know: >> The transit system is good with some flaws. For example, if bus drivers >> see >> you, they will be likely to announce routs and stops. The systems are >> not >> automated as they are here in Boston, nor are they required to have an >> automated system in-place. I was given the last peace of information >> second-hand, someone else may have a more accurate answer on that. >> Regarding the subway system, it is slowly advancing, more newer trains >> with >> clear announcements are being put in-place. Those are fixed routs that >> do >> not change unless the MTA decides to do construction. >> Remember to always have a back-up cane even if you travel with a guide >> dog. >> Also, always have an extra one if you use one. I have found that, if you >> are a guide dog user that access is more problematic when accessing >> public >> buildings or stores than in other places. I think this is due in-part to >> people bringing in pets who are not controlled. A word of caussion: >> Make sure your housing arrangements are set (on paper) if you have a >> guide >> dog and that all are aware. More buildings are "pet free", and they do >> not >> like to make exceptions. Quite honestly, you will be lucky if the people >> at >> the front desk let you in. NYC has some of the wealthiest people in the >> world. Of wich, who are completely ignorant to people with disabilities. >> Nor, do they ever want to be educated since "they have it all." >> >> I moved from NYC in early 2012; so, I do not know where things have >> changed. >> You will want to contact the local NFB chapter. You can do this by >> visiting: >> www.nfbny.org. >> Hope this helps. Have a great day. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:08 AM, "Ignasi Cambra Díaz" >> wrote: >> >>> Hello all, >>> I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things >>> are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation >>> good? >>> How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in >>> several occasions before but only for short periods of time. >>> Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center >>> Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't >>> know >>> if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out >>> how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go >>> back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing >>> with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and >>> Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. >>> Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. >>> Thank you! >>> >>> IC >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:38:53 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:38:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: The National Association of Blind Students presents: Getting to that training center References: Message-ID: <59B7D744-B86F-48B5-93BD-A5DE657053D7@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: Darian Smith > Subject: The National Association of Blind Students presents: Getting to that training center > Date: April 1, 2013 2:27:13 PM PDT > Cc: Darian Smith > Bcc: North Carolina Association of blind students , Arizona Association of blind students , Kentucky Association of blind students , Virginia Association of blind students , Maryland Association of blind students , Ohio Association of blind students , West Virginia Association of blind students , New York Association of blind students , New Hampshire Association of blind students , New Jersey Association of blind students , Illinois Association of blind students , Colorado Association of Blind Students , Texas Association of blind students , New Mexico Association of blind students , Georgia Association of blind students , Louisiana Association of blind students , Florida Association of Blind Students , Massachusetts Association of blind students , Tennessee Association of blind students , Minnesota Association of blind students , National Association of blind students , List for NABS State Presidents , cabs-talk , Michigan Association of blind students , Wisconsin Association of blind students , Nebraska Association of blind students , Missouri Association of blind students , Alabama Association of blind students , Utah Association of blind students > > How to Get to that Training Center! > > We know people like you. You know that you want to get comprehensive adjustment to blindness training, and you would really like to go to an NFB training center. But you have also heard the horror stories about how difficult it is to convince your VR counselor that attending an NFB training center will give you the proper training and tools to reach your true potential. > > Join us for an informative call with special guest Al Spooner, Assistant Director of Outreach and Marketing at BLIND, Inc., one of the NFB’s training centers, to learn how to work with a difficult agency. You’ll get a start to finish timeline of what documents you’ll need to fill out, how to word things, and how to problem- solve when your counselor does not respond or sidesteps your requests. You’ll also hear from Cindy Bennett, NABS Secretary and Membership Committee member on her experiences problem-solving with her state agency to get to, and to stay in training for the amount of time she needed. > > When: Sunday, April 7, 7:00 P.M. Eastern > Where: Call 605-475-6700 and enter the access code 7869673 Who: Anyone who could benefit! > > We look forward to sharing our insight on how to make your own, informed choice and get to that training > > center! We’ll be available to answer questions after the presentation. > > > *To listen to this call online Please visit: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/listen to access the live stream. The NABS membership committee From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 19:52:59 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:52:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kaitie, As I recall, for most of Manhattan, streets were really narrow roads that went east and west, while avenues were slightly wider roads that ran north and south. That didn't apply in lower Manhattan, however, where all the streets were named and didn't really seem to follow any recognizable pattern. (if you can tell me how "church" "fulton" "broadway" "visi" and "wall" have anything in common, please enlighten me.) Also, each separate burrow had it's own address system (I remember Brooklyn kinda being like Manhattan, Queens was much more confusing but I wasn't there much, and I can't speak for the Bronx or Stattan Island.) While I was only there for a week or so, I spent most days traveling around the city by myself and I had little to no trouble finding everything I wanted to. Actually, I found the "stereotypical New Yorkers" extremely helpful and to my liking; they would give me very brief but thorough directions and be on their way which, usually, is the way I prefer people to treat me. I'm sure that doesn't really help...but, well, I loved New York, and I can't wait to go back. Best, Kirt On 4/3/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Also worth mentioning is that NYC is set up in a grid fashion for the > most part. You might want to double check online or with someone like > William who may know better, but I believe the even numbered streets > run north and south and the odd go east to west. Broadway is the one > exception to the rule and it runs diagnally across. I was only there > for a small trip too, but I found the streets really easy to navigate > since I could use the basic knowledge of how the grid was set up to > get to places I wanted to go. > > The people are interesting. There is a good number of blind people in > NYC, so some people are really helpful. Others are the stereotypical > New Yorker who are constantly on the move, so they're sometimes not as > helpful. It's just a matter of finding the right person to ask. > > Hope this helps, and if you will be attending Juilliard as I presume > from your email, congratulations! > > On 4/3/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Ignasi, >> I've only visited on vacation for about a week and, from just that >> surface glance into the city, it made me really want to live somewhere >> with a transportation system that effective. Yes, the subway isn't >> a;lways automated and sometimes you have to ask people what stop >> you're at. Most streets are actually very narrow by the standards I'm >> used to, although still incredibly busy...which was actually nice, >> because there was never any doubt at all when you were supposed to >> cross. So, yeah, I'm sure William's post was much more >> informative...but there you go. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/3/13, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>> Good morning, >>> Well, as a native New Yorker, I will give you my perspective. Of >>> course, >>> no >>> two people will have the same experience. I wish you successful per >>> suit >>> of >>> your future endeavor. >>> Navigating around can be easy within Manhattan. Since people are always >>> around, you will not have a hard time finding someone if you need >>> assistance >>> or you become disoriented as a result of the ever-changing environment. >>> A >>> few things you should know: >>> The transit system is good with some flaws. For example, if bus drivers >>> see >>> you, they will be likely to announce routs and stops. The systems are >>> not >>> automated as they are here in Boston, nor are they required to have an >>> automated system in-place. I was given the last peace of information >>> second-hand, someone else may have a more accurate answer on that. >>> Regarding the subway system, it is slowly advancing, more newer trains >>> with >>> clear announcements are being put in-place. Those are fixed routs that >>> do >>> not change unless the MTA decides to do construction. >>> Remember to always have a back-up cane even if you travel with a guide >>> dog. >>> Also, always have an extra one if you use one. I have found that, if >>> you >>> are a guide dog user that access is more problematic when accessing >>> public >>> buildings or stores than in other places. I think this is due in-part >>> to >>> people bringing in pets who are not controlled. A word of caussion: >>> Make sure your housing arrangements are set (on paper) if you have a >>> guide >>> dog and that all are aware. More buildings are "pet free", and they do >>> not >>> like to make exceptions. Quite honestly, you will be lucky if the >>> people >>> at >>> the front desk let you in. NYC has some of the wealthiest people in the >>> world. Of wich, who are completely ignorant to people with >>> disabilities. >>> Nor, do they ever want to be educated since "they have it all." >>> >>> I moved from NYC in early 2012; so, I do not know where things have >>> changed. >>> You will want to contact the local NFB chapter. You can do this by >>> visiting: >>> www.nfbny.org. >>> Hope this helps. Have a great day. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:08 AM, "Ignasi Cambra Díaz" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how >>>> things >>>> are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation >>>> good? >>>> How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in >>>> several occasions before but only for short periods of time. >>>> Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln >>>> Center >>>> Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't >>>> know >>>> if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out >>>> how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go >>>> back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing >>>> with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and >>>> Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. >>>> Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. >>>> Thank you! >>>> >>>> IC >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 3 20:50:33 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:50:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Message-ID: While I haven't been there in a while, in the past, the public transportation was very good, subways maybe not the newest, but there were lots of them, buses etc. The New York Association of Guide Dog Users has a list here, http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nyagdu_nfbnet.org to subscribe. Dave p.s. I suspect housing is expensive, you may have to look a lot to find something you like, that is convenient and affordable. At 04:06 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote: >Hello all, >I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how >things are over there for blind people in general? Is public >transportation good? How about big intersections etc? Of course I >have been to New York in several occasions before but only for short >periods of time. >Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln >Center Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but >I don't know if that will be possible for several reasons. I am >trying to figure out how realistic it would be for me to live far >away from Juilliard and go back and forth? I have a guide dog and >have no problems at all dealing with public transportation, but >don't know much about New York and Manhattan in particular when it >comes to these things. >Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. >Thank you! > >IC From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 21:32:14 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:32:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blog Post: Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities In-Reply-To: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D4964EEBA@SN2PRD0710MB383.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D4964EEBA@SN2PRD0710MB383.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <-8273033822766392991@unknownmsgid> Anil, Thank you for this information. Great blog post! I was wondering if the 2012 annual report is available on the website yet? I would be interested in reading it if it is. Thanks, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 3, 2013, at 11:57 AM, "Lewis, Anil" wrote: > Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities > https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/fair-wages-workers-disabilities > Blog Date: > Wednesday, April 3, 2013 > From the 2012 Annual Report of the National Federation of the Blind > The National Federation of the Blind is, at its core, a grassroots civil rights movement consisting of blind people, our family members, and friends. Our movement is founded on the principles of equality and full participation of blind people in every aspect of society. Although we have made significant strides toward achieving equality of opportunity, many barriers to our full participation as American citizens continue to exist. Most notable are the barriers that blind people face in our efforts to obtain competitive, integrated employment. Although laws prohibiting discrimination against people with disabilities in employment are in place, ignorance about the true employment capacity of the blind, lack of awareness about assistive work technologies among employers, the deficiency of proper educational and training opportunities for blind workers, and the overwhelmingly low vocational expectations for the blind held by society all contribute to an unemployment rate of over 70 percent for working age blind adults. Members of the NFB accept the responsibility and welcome the opportunity to play a part in developing strategies to address all of these issues effectively, but our ability to be successful is significantly hindered when we are denied the same fundamental rights as every other American citizen. > In 1938, policymakers, acting on a laudable but misdirected desire to integrate people with disabilities into the workforce, implemented Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act, a provision that authorizes the U.S. Department of Labor to issue Special Wage Certificates to employers, permitting them to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. As a result of the erroneous belief, commonly held in 1938 but long since disproved, that people with disabilities cannot be productive employees, employers are permitted to pay workers with disabilities subminimum wages that are supposedly based on their productivity. This denial of fundamental wage protections to workers with disabilities, although masked as a compassionate offering of a work opportunity that would otherwise not be available, leaves over 300,000 people with disabilities employed at subminimum wages, some as low as three cents per hour. > > Members of the National Federation of the Blind are faced with over seventy years of institutionalized thinking that people with disabilities lack the ability to fully participate in the workplace, and we fight every day to demonstrate to the world that blind people have capacity. Because we have dared to believe in ourselves, today there are blind lawyers, doctors, engineers, teachers, members of the clergy, automobile mechanics, computer programmers, farmers, and more. The truth is that there are any number of jobs that match the unique skills, talents, interests and abilities of people with even the most significant disabilities. Moreover, assistive technology exists that allows people with disabilities to perform job tasks with the quality and efficiency of non-disabled employees. Although the diversity of jobs and the availability of assistive technology have made it possible for individuals with all disabilities to be productive employees, society's negative attitudes and low expectations continue to severely limit opportunities for competitive employment. And as long as it remains legal to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage, there will be those who exploit these misconceptions in order to justify employing workers with disabilities at subminimum wages, leaving hundreds of thousands of individuals in segregated work environments that are separate and unequal. > > Despite research demonstrating that segregated, subminimum wage work environments teach workers with disabilities obsolete skills and unproductive work habits that must be unlearned in order for them to become competitively employed, along with well-documented cases of subminimum wage employees working in poor conditions that are not acceptable in any modern workplace, advocates of Special Wage Certificates argue that the answer is simply better enforcement of compliance with current federal and state rules. But perpetuation of the current system is acquiescence in the face of discrimination. Slavery, the denial of the right to vote for women, and other forms of discrimination against classes of individuals based solely on a characteristic that the individuals possessed were once lawful. Society eventually realized that the only way to eliminate such discrimination is to make it unlawful. Section 14(c) of the FLSA, enacted out of ignorance about the true capacity of people with disabilities, is fundamentally morally wrong. The only way to correct this injustice is to repeal this discriminatory provision. > > In 2012, the National Federation of the Blind made significant progress toward achieving this goal. What started as our single voice calling to have the law changed has grown into a chorus of fifty organizations of people with disabilities making this demand. Eliminating subminimum wages was not part of the conversation about disability rights before we began to speak out, but by the end of 2012 the National Council on Disability, a federal agency that advises Congress and the President on disability issues, had issued a report recommending that subminimum wages be phased out. > > We are the voice of the nation's blind, and we will use our voice to speak out against people, policies, or programs that seek to exploit us or reduce us to a status of second class citizenship. We look forward to a day when all Americans have wage security, real opportunity, and true equality. Add your voice to ours by signing our online petition at: http://www.nfb.org/fair-wages-petition. > > For more information on this important issue, please visit www.nfb.org/fair-wages. > > > Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. > Director of Advocacy and Policy > > "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" > http://www.nfb.org/fairwages > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place > Baltimore, Maryland 21230 > (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) > (410) 685-5653 (FAX) > Email: alewis at nfb.org > Web: www.nfb.org > twitter: @anillife > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 21:43:16 2013 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:43:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} FW: WYNN Adds Support for Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1112966924451.1101384244195.43395.6.1017301D@scheduler.constantcontact.com> References: <1112966924451.1101384244195.43395.6.1017301D@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: <00a301ce30b4$4115fe50$c341faf0$@gmail.com> From: @ Freedom Scientific News [mailto:freedomscientificnews at freedomscientific.ccsend.com] On Behalf Of @ Freedom Scientific News Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 2:34 PM To: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Subject: WYNN Adds Support for Windows 8 Freedom Scientific Logo Empowering IndependenceT FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Media Contact: Beth Thomlinson 800-444-4443 ext. 3428 or 727-803-8000 ext. 3428 http://www.freedomscientific.com/LSG Sales: wynn at FreedomScientific.com WYNN Adds Support for Windows 8 Also supports Intel-based tablets for school and individual access (St. Petersburg, Florida, April 3, 2013) - The Learning Systems Group of Freedom Scientific, Inc., developer of literacy software designed to create custom learning environments for struggling students, announced today that the industry-leading WYNNT software has added support for Microsoft's Windows 8 operating system. In addition to Windows 8, WYNN will also work with Intel-based tablets running Windows 8, such as those from Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and others. Since these tablets took top honors at the 2013 Consumer Electronics Show, the latest update continues WYNN's support for cutting-edge technology. "We are proud to offer these updates for our customers," said Beth Thomlinson, Product Manager for Literacy Products. She continued, "We are committed to supporting the latest products in a timely manner." The new release is available as an update, so current users of WYNN 7 can get the newest version for free without needing to re-install the product. Literacy Support Tools Help Students Perform Better WYNN 7.0, building on its well-recognized educational features, is the only software that offers struggling students "electronic notecards" and Web-MaskingR. These features now work in Windows 8, Windows 7, Vista, and XP, broadening the support base. New features that were released in WYNN 7 include: * Notecards and templates: these features, which support organization and writing, can be used in conjunction with or separately from the PREPARE process * Additional toolbar buttons for Save to MP3 and other most requested features: some of WYNN's more popular features, including Save to MP3, Book Search, and Send to Word, now have their own toolbar buttons * Convert highlights to outlines: users can combine two of WYNN's most popular features * Updated user interface: new toolbar button design provides an additional option for users; legacy toolbar buttons for those more comfortable with WYNN's traditional design * Enhanced network install capabilities: WYNN's network installation, including silent install, has been updated and enhanced for easier deployment in busy school districts About Freedom Scientific Freedom Scientific is the leading worldwide provider of assistive technology products for those with vision impairments. The Company sells its products worldwide and has offices in Florida and Switzerland. Freedom Scientific's Learning Systems Group is recognized as a leading provider of easy-to-use, easy-to-learn solutions, based on sound educational principles. The products assist individuals of all ages to be more successful with reading and writing. Visit www.freedomscientific.com/LSG. Freedom ScientificR and WYNNT are either trademarks or registered trademarks in the United States and/or other countries. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners. Blindness Products | Low Vision Products | Learning Systems Home 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716-1805 | (800) 444-4443 | www.freedomscientific.com C2012 Freedom Scientific, Inc. All rights reserved. Freedom Scientific adheres to a very strict privacy policy. We will never sell, share or rent your email address or other information. Visit us online to learn more about how we use your information. Forward email This email was sent to avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com by freedomscientificnews at freedomscientific.com | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribeT | Privacy Policy. Freedom Scientific | 11800 31st Court North | Saint Petersburg | FL | 33716-1805 From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 23:05:02 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:05:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books In-Reply-To: <362E1AB64BBF4969BA4EC468116395FF@OwnerPC> References: <515ac15f.53b4e00a.72e1.3c02@mx.google.com> <362E1AB64BBF4969BA4EC468116395FF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: For the Voice Dream app, you can sample all of the available voices, English and otherwise, by going into settings and selecting add voices. Each voice will have a sample button before the purchase button. There are, thus far, terhty-one English voices ranging from American to Indian, plus many foreign voices. This app is a great option for someone with a mild hearing loss who has trouble understanding the voices on Read2Go. I know of someone just like this, who was missing out on redding Bookshare books on her phone until she got this app. If you are so inclined, there is even a Queen Elizabeth voice! Sent from my iPhone On Apr 2, 2013, at 9:53 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Hello, > Oh, there's an iphone ap for reading with voices? > Is this an ibook ap or something? > I assumed you had to have voiceover read it to you like Kerri said. > > So there's other voices. Are there links to samples of them? I wonder who they are and what they sound like. > Sophie, do you use these as opposed to voice over? > And what books are we talking about? Ibooks or the nook ap? > Is it human sounding with inflections? I prefer audio books or braille like Kerri does since the monotone speech of most synthesizers is just too hard to process for a long period of time. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 7:30 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > Kerri, Justin is right. I don't know about Blio on the PC, but I > have the app on my iiPhone. If you download the app for > iPhone/iPad, you don't have to have VO read the book to you. The > app comes with a set of voices you can choose from. Each one is > $9.99, so it's a bit of a cost at the outset, but the voices are > really good. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 01:38:39 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > I saw the blio at the convention two years ago. it is > accessible. They did > a bunch of workshops on it. From what I saw then, and mind you > this was two > years ago, you could download it for free, but you had to pay for > amazon > books and anything else you bought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing Books > > Hi All: > > So, I love to read. > What is the current access we have to mainstream Ebooks? > Is the Nook for PC accessible yet or is it only the Iphone/Ipad > app? > I love reading but I can't stand reading on the Iphone/Ipad. I > don't mind > voiceover for short things but I hate reading with it. > I prefer to either read in braille, on the computer using Jaws, > or listen to > an audiobook. > Does anyone use the Blio EReader? Is it accessible? If I were to > purchase a > book on it can you read it using Jaws? > There is a book I want to read that I can't find on either > Bookshare or BARD > and I looked on the Blio reader store and it is available for > only $2.99. > What sources do you use to get books for pleasure reading? > At this time, are there any other sources to read Ebooks on the > PC using > Jaws besides Blio and Bookshare? > I know books can be read in braille on the Iphone/Ipad using a > braille > display but I currently don't have one. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Thu Apr 4 00:05:55 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:05:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Job Openings: Seeking Counselors for Enchanted Hills Camp Message-ID: > >Thank you for forwarding to all who may be interested. >Enchanted Hills Camp Counselor >POSITION: >Camp Counselor >REPORTS TO: >Camp Director >STATUS: >Non-Exempt >JOB PURPOSE: >As a residential camp for the blind, camp >counselors are responsible for the overall >provision of a traditional camp experience to >all blind and visually impaired campers >including but not limited to: Inventing new >blind-friendly programming, motivating campers >to use non-visual techniques, adapting all >activities so that all campers can participate >fully regardless of their level of vision. >Incorporating active participation in camp >meals, clean up and other daily functions >through fun activities. Counselors provide >supervision to recreational activities, >providing educational experiences, promoting >independence, supervision of health and safety >of children and adults. Applicant must also have >the ability to work with campers with secondary >disabilities i.e. developmental, hearing impairments and mobility restrictions >AGENCY EXPECTATIONS OF EMPLOYEES: >As employees, we should: >• Read, understand, and adhere to all Agency policies and procedures. >• Conduct ourselves in a professional manner on >and off the job, knowing that we are representatives of LightHouse. >• Perform all job responsibilities. >• Maintain a positive and respectful attitude toward everyone. >• Communicate regularly and appropriately with >our supervisors, and colleagues within our own departments. >• Demonstrate efficient time management and the >ability to prioritize our assignments. >• Consistently report to work on time, and be >ready to begin performing our assigned duties and responsibilities. >• Work productively. >• Continue to learn and communicate a >blindness-positive philosophy based on best current practices in the field. >QUALIFICATIONS: >Education or equivalent: High school graduate/College education preferred: >Must be 18 years of age or older. >Must be able to obtain or become certified in First Aid/CPR. >Experience: Previous work in a camp, school or community service setting. >• Other: Experience working with individuals who >are blind/visually impaired preferred but not required >ACCOUNTABILITIES: >1. Assist in the direction, supervision, and >organization of campers in their living unit, >within activities and throughout the camp in >order to meet the intended camper outcomes. > * Apply basic youth and blindness skill > development principles in working with campers > through communication, relationship > development, and respect for diversity, involvement and empowerment of youth. > * Understand basic adult learning modalities > * Assure campers are properly supervised at all times. > * Be aware of and implement safety guidelines. >2. Participate in the development and >implementation of program activities designed >specifically for blind campers within the mission and outcomes. > * Responsible for leading and assisting with the teaching of activities. > * Actively participate in all program areas as assigned. > * Provide for the progression of activities > within the framework of individual and group interests and abilities. > * Assist in program areas such as > waterfront, nature, all camp activities, and arts and crafts as directed. >3. Maintain high standards of health and safety >in all activities for campers and staff. > * Provide the daily care of each camper > within your supervision including recognition of personal health needs. > * Ensure that campers receive their > medications as directed by health care manager. > * Be alert to campers and staff needs and > discuss with camp health manager and/or > resident camp director when appropriate. > * Be alert to equipment and facilities to > ensure utilization, proper care, and > maintenance is adhered to; report repairs needed promptly to camp director. >4. Be a role model to campers and staff in your >attitude and behavior towards blindness. > * Follow and uphold all safety and security rules and procedures. > * Set a good example to campers and others > in regard to general camp procedures and > practices including sanitation, schedule, and sportsmanship. >Other Job Duties: > * Contribute to verbal and written > evaluations and communication as requested. > * Participate enthusiastically in all camp > activities, planning, and leading those as assigned. > * Participate as a member of the camp staff > team to deliver and supervise evening programs, > special events, overnights, and other all-camp activities and camp functions. > * Stay current on best practices by reading, > viewing instructional media and active participation before and during camp. >Physical Aspects of the Job: > * Must be able to transport 50 pounds > * Ability to enforce safety and emergency procedures. > * Ability to identify and respond to > environmental and other hazards related to the activity. > * Physical ability to respond appropriately > to situations requiring first aid. Must be able > to assist campers in an emergency (fire, > evacuation, illness, or injury) and possess > strength and endurance required to maintain constant supervision of campers. >Other duties may also be assigned >WORKING CONDITIONS: >Equal opportunity to all regardless of race, >color, creed, national origin, ancestry, sex, >marital status, disability, religious or >political affiliation, age, or sexual orientation. >All employees at LightHouse are hired for an >indefinite and unspecified duration and >consequently, no employee is guaranteed >employment for a specified length of time. >Employment is at the mutual consent of the >employee and LightHouse. Accordingly, either the >employee or LightHouse can terminate the >employment relationship at any time, with or >without cause (“employment at will”). >Download >the Application for Employment, EHC 2013. Please >complete the entire application, and return it >to Human Resources, at the LightHouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired. From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:11:45 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:11:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good for them though! I know my family chooses not to use those passes for that reason as well as simply because I don't need it and it's kind of a damper on independence in some ways. I forget who said it, but I think I remember reading someone on this thread as saying that if we want to be treated like everyone else we have to do just that and not accept handouts because of our blindness when we are perfectly capable of waiting in line like our sighted peers. Of course, I realize there are people who are exceptions to the rule for reasons other than just their blindness and those reasons don't necessarily have anything to do with their independence, but for me and my family's situation that was how my parents looked at it. On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > hi, > Yes, they're sighted. To be honest, it surprised me, too. Their > reasoning was that they didn't want to draw attention to themselves. > They thought that they would have to endure dirty looks from people > who watched us able-bodied folks waltzing to the front of the line > when we had no business doing so. As you can see, they're a bit > socially conscious, even though we all knew we would never see any of > those people again. > > On 4/2/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Interesting that your dad and sister were opposed to using the passes. >> They're sighted, right? Or are they blind? >> I'm asking because I don't think I know a sighted person who truly >> understands the issues involved with taking the special passes. Plenty >> of sighted people respect my preference not to do it, but none have >> specifically stated opposition on their own. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>> most amusement parks do have them. I never knew they existed at all >>> until several years ago, though. I was dating a guy at the time who >>> thought it was acceptable to use them. He and I, and my dad and sister >>> went to Hershey park here in PA. He insisted that he and I should get >>> these passes, although all three of us were extremely uncomfortable >>> with that idea. I went along with it at the time because I didn't want >>> to start a fight, but it took my dad and sister a long time to forgive >>> me for it. >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> Oh, does six flags have a way to cut in line? >>>> If so, I didn't know that. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Julie McGinnity >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >>>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in line at >>>> 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but as I >>>> got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are >>>> physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those who are >>>> blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from doing so. >>>> I just didn't get it. >>>> >>>> Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take her to >>>> an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I >>>> suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think I >>>> would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long period >>>> of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it seems >>>> Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't see >>>> why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure though. >>>> Haven't tried it. Lol >>>> >>>> Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their dogs >>>> while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's an >>>> option. >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>>>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>>>> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>>>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>>>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>>>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >>>>> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>>>> understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, >>>>> self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves >>>>> by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as >>>>> a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to >>>>> see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very >>>>> upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods >>>>> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in >>>>> the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically >>>>> handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real >>>>> favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want >>>>> to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal >>>>> people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much >>>>> to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time >>>>> we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining >>>>> from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >>>>> normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly >>>>> necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem >>>>> hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more >>>>> to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I >>>>> also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>>>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>>>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>>>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>>>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>>>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>>>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>>>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>>>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>>>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >>>>> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >>>>> letter of recommendation. >>>>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>>>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Julie McG >>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>> life." >>>> John 3:16 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:16:33 2013 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 20:16:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2013.1beta2 available for testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c301ce30e2$d06e6140$714b23c0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org [mailto:nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org] On Behalf Of NVDA announcement list Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 8:04 PM To: NVDA announcement mailing list Subject: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2013.1beta2 available for testing NV Access is pleased to announce the release of NVDA 2013.1beta2. It is intended for those who are interested in testing and evaluating the upcoming NVDA 2013.1 release, but is not recommended for production use. Testers are encouraged to report any bugs found while using this beta. Note that some translations may not yet be updated. They will be updated by the time of the final 2013.1 release. To download or read more, please visit: http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2013.1beta2Released Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate -- This is the NVDA announcement mailing list. To unsubscribe or edit your options, please visit: http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-announce From dandrews at visi.com Thu Apr 4 08:31:03 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 03:31:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: FYI, Please distribute Fw: Job Posting for Exec Director CBVI Message-ID: > > Greetings to all! >The message, was forwarded by Holly miller, follows. >*** > >From: Holly Baker Miller >Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:31 PM >To: joe ruffalo >Subject: Job Posting for Exec Director CBVI > >Dear Joe, >Here is the posting for the Executive Director position at CBVI. >I've included the text of the posting in the body of the message >below, an attachment and a link to the website where it is posted. > >I also see that they have posted for 2 Chief of Rehab Services >positions, one in Newark and one in Cherry Hill. Interesting. > >Holly > >http://www.state.nj.us/humanservices/involved/employment/ > > >March 28, 2013 > > > >New Jersey Department of Human Services > >JOB OPPORTUNITY #093-13 > > > >EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR > >Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired > > > >The Executive Director, as the chief administrative officer, assumes >a position of leadership in directing and managing the overall goals >and programs of the Commission for the Blind and Visually >Impaired. The Commission promotes and provides services in the >areas of education, employment, independence and eye health. It >provides specialized services to persons with vision problems; >educates and works in the community to reduce the incidence of >vision loss; and works to improve attitudes concerning people with vision loss. > > > >The position currently reports to the Deputy Commissioner, >Department of Human Services, with a budget of approximately $28 >million, a staff of approximately 300 and is responsible to provide >or ensure access to services that will enable consumers to obtain >their fullest measure of self-reliance and quality of life and fully >integrate into their community. The Commission recognizes three >major priorities, they are: 1) providing specialized services to >persons with vision problems in the areas of vocational >rehabilitation, education and independent living; 2) educating and >working in the community to reduce the incidence of vision loss, >and; 3) outreach to businesses and local communities to advocate for >educational and employment opportunities on behalf of New Jersey >residents who are blind or visually impaired. > > > >This position requires a Bachelor's degree supplemented by a >Master's degree in Rehabilitation Counseling, Business >Administration, Public Administration, Social Work, Education, >Special Education and a minimum of seven (7) years of experience >with programs for the Blind and Visually Impaired, including five >(5) years of supervisory experience in organization, administration, >and fiscal management. > >The New Jersey First Act requires that public employees reside in >New Jersey, unless exempted under the law or currently a NJ State >government employee. If not a NJ resident, relocation must take >place within one year after employment. Please refer to the New >Jersey First Act. > >Salary is commensurate with education and experience > > > >Qualified applicants should send a resume and a contact list of >three (3) professional references, by April 30, 2013 to the attention of: > > > >Rudene L. Vaught > >Assistant Commissioner for Human Resources > >222 South Warren Street > >PO Box 700 > >Trenton, NJ 08625 > >Resumes may be emailed to >DHSResumes at dhs.state.nj.us -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 093-13_Executive Director CBVI 3-28-13 (1).doc Type: application/mac-binhex40 Size: 215815 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Vyingling at nfb.org Thu Apr 4 12:16:30 2013 From: Vyingling at nfb.org (Yingling, Valerie) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:16:30 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] looking for users experincing inaccessibility with Google Apps Message-ID: <2E77F7FE85FE99418761668AE1AA779E20B4CC5E@SN2PRD0710MB382.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> The NFB wants to see what can be done to address the problem of the inaccessibility of Google Apps in the workplace and on campus. To that end, the NFB would like to hear from employees or students - by telephone only - who have experienced inaccessibility with any of Google's applications, including but not limited to the following: Google Docs Gmail Google Calendar Google Slides Google Plus Google Chat Google Scholar If you have encountered such difficulties and would like to help us, DO NOT RESPOND BY EMAIL, but instead please call Valerie Yingling at 410-659-9314 x2440. Thank you, Valerie Valerie Yingling National Federation of the Blind Telephone: 410-659-9314 ext. 2440 From ALewis at nfb.org Thu Apr 4 13:13:37 2013 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:13:37 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Over 1, 500 Signatures to Support Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Message-ID: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D49658FB1@CH1PRD0710MB380.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> We continue our struggle to phase out the use of Special Wage Certificates that allow employers to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. The Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act of 2013 (HR 831), to repeal Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act, has been introduced and currently has 23 co-sponsors. We have found a true champion in our Sponsor, Congressman Gregg Harper of Mississippi. We have developed an online petition to assist us in our effort to demonstrate public support and to promote public awareness of our Fair Wage issue. To sign the petition, you should visit www.nfb.org/fair-wages-petition. We would like to thank those of you who have signed the petition and circulated the information to your family and friends. To those of you that meant to sign, but just forgot to get around to it. Now is the time to get around to it. We currently have over 1,500 signatures on our petition, and with your continued assistance, we should be able to get 2,000 signatures before the end of the week. It is not enough for you to sign the petition. You should encourage your friends, family, colleagues and classmates to sign as well. Post the information to Facebook. Tweet about it. Send emails to your network of friends. If you do not have an email address, find several people that have email and ask them to go online and sign the petition. Then encourage them to encourage their family and friends. Please consider other ways you can spread the word about our struggle. For more information about the Fair Wage issue visit: http://www.nfb.org/fair-wages Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Advocacy and Policy "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" http://www.nfb.org/fairwages NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org twitter: @anillife From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Apr 4 15:59:45 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 08:59:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1 .yahoo.com> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> Good morning, Jess,, If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car , Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: >Hello: >Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but >I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide >dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think >it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a >waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what >not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded >waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you >choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. >Jess > >Check out my blog: >http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com > > > >------------------------------ >On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > >Good morning, > > > > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and > >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, > >who cares? > >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: > >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to > be fast on > >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got > cheated in > >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No but > >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > >> > >>Justin, > >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in > >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient with > >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely different > >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual > >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented tactally > >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has been > >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. > >> Best, > >>Kirt > >> > >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > >> > Silverman > >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM > >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my > >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we > >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior > >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame > >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned > >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of > >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw > >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think > >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip > >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled > >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble > >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get > >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems > >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the > >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in > >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow > >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little > >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of > >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an > >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that > >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. > >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it > >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if > >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose > >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do > >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay > >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to > >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's > >> > letter of recommendation. > >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > >> > Arielle > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> > 0gmail > >> > .com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william > s2%40gmail > >>.com > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 > 3%40sbcglobal.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 17:05:30 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:05:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> Message-ID: Kar, First, while I think there is absolutely a time and place for profanity (you should have heard me when I accidentally spilled a cup of hot tea at a coffee shop just a few days ago), I don't think it suits a publicly archived mailing list. This is coming from someone who can curse like a completely drunk sailor, believe me, I just don't think this is the right venue for language like that. Now on to the substance of my email. As should be completely obvious by now, I'm not a dog user and (probably) will never be one. Still I think leaving Fido home (as most guide dogs are trained to deal with), would be a better option than bringing the pooch to the amusement park. If you want to go with a friend (as most people probably will), more power to you. Still, if you have to rely on that friend to get you wherever you need to go, and you aren't capable of handling yourself should you get separated, either by accident or by choice, then I think you probably need some mobility training. I hate making generalizations but, I think, that's a safe one to make. Best, Kirt On 4/4/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Jess,, > > If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that > they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed > in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved > to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My > suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a > friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? > I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. > Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car > , > > Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: > >>Hello: >>Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but >>I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide >>dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think >>it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a >>waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what >>not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded >>waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you >>choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. >>Jess >> >>Check out my blog: >>http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >>http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com >> >> >> >>------------------------------ >>On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >Good morning, >> > >> > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >> >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, >> >who cares? >> >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >> >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to >> be fast on >> >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got >> cheated in >> >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No >> >> but >> >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> >> Manwaring >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> >> >>Justin, >> >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >> >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >> >> with >> >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> >> different >> >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently >> >> visual >> >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >> >> tactally >> >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has >> >> been >> >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >> >> Best, >> >>Kirt >> >> >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> >> > Silverman >> >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up >> >> > my >> >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that >> >> > we >> >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >> >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >> >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >> >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >> >> > learned >> >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >> >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of >> >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >> >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >> >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and >> >> > skip >> >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or >> >> > crippled >> >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >> >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >> >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >> >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >> >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing >> >> > in >> >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >> >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >> >> > little >> >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >> >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >> >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >> >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >> >> > normalcy. >> >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, >> >> > it >> >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >> >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >> >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >> >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >> >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to >> >> > pay >> >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >> >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >> >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >> >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >> >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >> >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message >> >> > to >> >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >> >> > professor's >> >> > letter of recommendation. >> >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> > 0gmail >> >> > .com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william >> s2%40gmail >> >>.com >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >nabs-l mailing list >> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 >> 3%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From wmodnl at hotmail.com Thu Apr 4 21:23:55 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:23:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Within Manhattan: Streets (not avenues) go east to west. Evens east, ods west. Some exceptions apply: 59TH goes east, to accommodate the queens burrow Bridge, AKA 59TH Street bridge. Also, any 2-way cross town street: 23RD, 79, or 34 and others will have a cross-town bus. Regarding avenues: Od ones go north, even ones south. Here is the order, from east to west: FDR drive, a highway for cars, no foot traffic. East end, in some areas only(up-town) 2-way. York, from 57-92-- 2-way, has bus M31. 1ST, 1-way, north-bound 2ND, south-bound, major construction as a result of the new 2ND avenue subway being built. 3RD, 1-way, north. Lexington, southbound, 1-way. Park: 2-way, has a divider within the middle. Mattason, 1-way, northbound starts at 23RD. 5TH: 1-way, southbound. 6Th: 1-way, northbound. It is also known as avenue of the america's. Note, I did not mention broadway since, it is before 5TH, depending upon the section of the city you are in. Others existas: broadway, Amsterdam, Columbus, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12TH. After, is the Henry Hutson Parkway, AKA the west-side highway. Hope this helps. Sent from my iPad On Apr 3, 2013, at 3:54 PM, "Kirt Manwaring" wrote: > Kaitie, > As I recall, for most of Manhattan, streets were really narrow roads > that went east and west, while avenues were slightly wider roads that > ran north and south. That didn't apply in lower Manhattan, however, > where all the streets were named and didn't really seem to follow any > recognizable pattern. (if you can tell me how "church" "fulton" > "broadway" "visi" and "wall" have anything in common, please enlighten > me.) Also, each separate burrow had it's own address system (I > remember Brooklyn kinda being like Manhattan, Queens was much more > confusing but I wasn't there much, and I can't speak for the Bronx or > Stattan Island.) > While I was only there for a week or so, I spent most days traveling > around the city by myself and I had little to no trouble finding > everything I wanted to. Actually, I found the "stereotypical New > Yorkers" extremely helpful and to my liking; they would give me very > brief but thorough directions and be on their way which, usually, is > the way I prefer people to treat me. > I'm sure that doesn't really help...but, well, I loved New York, and > I can't wait to go back. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/3/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Also worth mentioning is that NYC is set up in a grid fashion for the >> most part. You might want to double check online or with someone like >> William who may know better, but I believe the even numbered streets >> run north and south and the odd go east to west. Broadway is the one >> exception to the rule and it runs diagnally across. I was only there >> for a small trip too, but I found the streets really easy to navigate >> since I could use the basic knowledge of how the grid was set up to >> get to places I wanted to go. >> >> The people are interesting. There is a good number of blind people in >> NYC, so some people are really helpful. Others are the stereotypical >> New Yorker who are constantly on the move, so they're sometimes not as >> helpful. It's just a matter of finding the right person to ask. >> >> Hope this helps, and if you will be attending Juilliard as I presume >> from your email, congratulations! >> >> On 4/3/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Ignasi, >>> I've only visited on vacation for about a week and, from just that >>> surface glance into the city, it made me really want to live somewhere >>> with a transportation system that effective. Yes, the subway isn't >>> a;lways automated and sometimes you have to ask people what stop >>> you're at. Most streets are actually very narrow by the standards I'm >>> used to, although still incredibly busy...which was actually nice, >>> because there was never any doubt at all when you were supposed to >>> cross. So, yeah, I'm sure William's post was much more >>> informative...but there you go. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/3/13, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> Good morning, >>>> Well, as a native New Yorker, I will give you my perspective. Of >>>> course, >>>> no >>>> two people will have the same experience. I wish you successful per >>>> suit >>>> of >>>> your future endeavor. >>>> Navigating around can be easy within Manhattan. Since people are always >>>> around, you will not have a hard time finding someone if you need >>>> assistance >>>> or you become disoriented as a result of the ever-changing environment. >>>> A >>>> few things you should know: >>>> The transit system is good with some flaws. For example, if bus drivers >>>> see >>>> you, they will be likely to announce routs and stops. The systems are >>>> not >>>> automated as they are here in Boston, nor are they required to have an >>>> automated system in-place. I was given the last peace of information >>>> second-hand, someone else may have a more accurate answer on that. >>>> Regarding the subway system, it is slowly advancing, more newer trains >>>> with >>>> clear announcements are being put in-place. Those are fixed routs that >>>> do >>>> not change unless the MTA decides to do construction. >>>> Remember to always have a back-up cane even if you travel with a guide >>>> dog. >>>> Also, always have an extra one if you use one. I have found that, if >>>> you >>>> are a guide dog user that access is more problematic when accessing >>>> public >>>> buildings or stores than in other places. I think this is due in-part >>>> to >>>> people bringing in pets who are not controlled. A word of caussion: >>>> Make sure your housing arrangements are set (on paper) if you have a >>>> guide >>>> dog and that all are aware. More buildings are "pet free", and they do >>>> not >>>> like to make exceptions. Quite honestly, you will be lucky if the >>>> people >>>> at >>>> the front desk let you in. NYC has some of the wealthiest people in the >>>> world. Of wich, who are completely ignorant to people with >>>> disabilities. >>>> Nor, do they ever want to be educated since "they have it all." >>>> >>>> I moved from NYC in early 2012; so, I do not know where things have >>>> changed. >>>> You will want to contact the local NFB chapter. You can do this by >>>> visiting: >>>> www.nfbny.org. >>>> Hope this helps. Have a great day. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:08 AM, "Ignasi Cambra Díaz" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how >>>>> things >>>>> are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation >>>>> good? >>>>> How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in >>>>> several occasions before but only for short periods of time. >>>>> Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln >>>>> Center >>>>> Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't >>>>> know >>>>> if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out >>>>> how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go >>>>> back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing >>>>> with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and >>>>> Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. >>>>> Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. >>>>> Thank you! >>>>> >>>>> IC >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 22:26:02 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 18:26:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601ce3183$643fc260$2cbf4720$@gmail.com> Forgive the late contribution. When the NFB store doesn't have what I want, I usually default to the Iowa Department for the Blind. I could be wrong but think their number is: 515-281-1333. Just giving them a plug. Prices are usually comparable. On an unrelated note, it's a real pisser when people snap those telescopic canes. I mean, if you hit my car, you or your insurance pays for the damages. I sometimes feel like I should insist they pay the $35 for a replacement, especially those people who barely apologize for breaking it. Okay, rant over. LOL Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 5:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question Yeah, I hope they have the one I requested in stock. Hopefully it goes faster than usual for Free matter. My university sometimes can take up to a day to sort through their mail and get packages to the right dorm buildings too, but I don't have to leave till Thursday night so hopefully it will make it there in time. If not, I have a ratty folding cane I can take back to school with me when I go back after Easter. It's kind of a mess because it's got a good deal of wear and tear and it's way too short for me, but in terms of safety it will get the job done for the weekend. Thankfully, I'll be at a conference of people who work with people with disabilities, so even if I run into some minor issues it should be pretty easy to get some assistance. On 3/30/13, Ian Perrault wrote: > I find Plenty of Fish actually easier then ok cupid. The web site is > www.pof.com, so www.p o f.com. It's free, and there's an accessible > IPhone app as well. > Ian > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 00:51:53 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 18:51:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: <000601ce3183$643fc260$2cbf4720$@gmail.com> References: <000601ce3183$643fc260$2cbf4720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Does the Iowa department have good folding canes? Arielle On 4/4/13, Joe wrote: > Forgive the late contribution. When the NFB store doesn't have what I want, > I usually default to the Iowa Department for the Blind. I could be wrong > but > think their number is: 515-281-1333. Just giving them a plug. Prices are > usually comparable. > > On an unrelated note, it's a real pisser when people snap those telescopic > canes. I mean, if you hit my car, you or your insurance pays for the > damages. I sometimes feel like I should insist they pay the $35 for a > replacement, especially those people who barely apologize for breaking it. > > Okay, rant over. LOL > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 5:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > Yeah, I hope they have the one I requested in stock. Hopefully it goes > faster than usual for Free matter. My university sometimes can take up to > a > day to sort through their mail and get packages to the right dorm buildings > too, but I don't have to leave till Thursday night so hopefully it will > make > it there in time. > > If not, I have a ratty folding cane I can take back to school with me when > I > go back after Easter. It's kind of a mess because it's got a good deal of > wear and tear and it's way too short for me, but in terms of safety it will > get the job done for the weekend. Thankfully, I'll be at a conference of > people who work with people with disabilities, so even if I run into some > minor issues it should be pretty easy to get some assistance. > > On 3/30/13, Ian Perrault wrote: >> I find Plenty of Fish actually easier then ok cupid. The web site is >> www.pof.com, so www.p o f.com. It's free, and there's an accessible >> IPhone app as well. >> Ian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 5 01:41:43 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:41:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: <000601ce3183$643fc260$2cbf4720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130404183120.0213aa30@comcast.net> 'Afternoon, Joe, Upon the mean streets of Berkeley, California we have people ambulating in many ways including wheelchairs, as well as disturbing whatever peace there may be, sometimes even on the sidewalk! Thus, combined with the hoards of foot traffic that seem to travel too and fro, downtown, where I live, the cane is often in eminent danger of snapage. I know someone who keeps the price tag affixed to his stick, for a scenario in which he can demand re-embursement, from the hapless sighted person who is unmoved at the gravity, not to mention the expense of a replacement cane. Car05:51 PM 4/4/2013, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Does the Iowa department have good folding canes? >Arielle > >On 4/4/13, Joe wrote: > > Forgive the late contribution. When the NFB store doesn't have what I want, > > I usually default to the Iowa Department for the Blind. I could be wrong > > but > > think their number is: 515-281-1333. Just giving them a plug. Prices are > > usually comparable. > > > > On an unrelated note, it's a real pisser when people snap those telescopic > > canes. I mean, if you hit my car, you or your insurance pays for the > > damages. I sometimes feel like I should insist they pay the $35 for a > > replacement, especially those people who barely apologize for breaking it. > > > > Okay, rant over. LOL > > > > Joe > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 5:24 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question > > > > Yeah, I hope they have the one I requested in stock. Hopefully it goes > > faster than usual for Free matter. My university sometimes can take up to > > a > > day to sort through their mail and get packages to the right dorm buildings > > too, but I don't have to leave till Thursday night so hopefully it will > > make > > it there in time. > > > > If not, I have a ratty folding cane I can take back to school with me when > > I > > go back after Easter. It's kind of a mess because it's got a good deal of > > wear and tear and it's way too short for me, but in terms of safety it will > > get the job done for the weekend. Thankfully, I'll be at a conference of > > people who work with people with disabilities, so even if I run into some > > minor issues it should be pretty easy to get some assistance. > > > > On 3/30/13, Ian Perrault wrote: > >> I find Plenty of Fish actually easier then ok cupid. The web site is > >> www.pof.com, so www.p o f.com. It's free, and there's an accessible > >> IPhone app as well. > >> Ian > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> 40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 01:42:50 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:42:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question In-Reply-To: References: <000601ce3183$643fc260$2cbf4720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Joshua, I used to think NFB-type straight canes were terrible pieces of rubbish until I was taught the open palm technique; I'll confess it didn't take hardly any time at all for my opinion to change after that. Best, Kirt On 4/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Does the Iowa department have good folding canes? > Arielle > > On 4/4/13, Joe wrote: >> Forgive the late contribution. When the NFB store doesn't have what I >> want, >> I usually default to the Iowa Department for the Blind. I could be wrong >> but >> think their number is: 515-281-1333. Just giving them a plug. Prices are >> usually comparable. >> >> On an unrelated note, it's a real pisser when people snap those >> telescopic >> canes. I mean, if you hit my car, you or your insurance pays for the >> damages. I sometimes feel like I should insist they pay the $35 for a >> replacement, especially those people who barely apologize for breaking >> it. >> >> Okay, rant over. LOL >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 5:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Telescopic cane question >> >> Yeah, I hope they have the one I requested in stock. Hopefully it goes >> faster than usual for Free matter. My university sometimes can take up >> to >> a >> day to sort through their mail and get packages to the right dorm >> buildings >> too, but I don't have to leave till Thursday night so hopefully it will >> make >> it there in time. >> >> If not, I have a ratty folding cane I can take back to school with me >> when >> I >> go back after Easter. It's kind of a mess because it's got a good deal >> of >> wear and tear and it's way too short for me, but in terms of safety it >> will >> get the job done for the weekend. Thankfully, I'll be at a conference of >> people who work with people with disabilities, so even if I run into some >> minor issues it should be pretty easy to get some assistance. >> >> On 3/30/13, Ian Perrault wrote: >>> I find Plenty of Fish actually easier then ok cupid. The web site is >>> www.pof.com, so www.p o f.com. It's free, and there's an accessible >>> IPhone app as well. >>> Ian >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 02:27:38 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 22:27:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001a01ce30db$fa01b4f0$ee051ed0$@gmail.com> Lol. Good stuff. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Good morning, Jess,, If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car , Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: >Hello: >Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but >I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide >dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think >it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a >waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what >not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded >waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you >choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. >Jess > >Check out my blog: >http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com > > > >------------------------------ >On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > >Good morning, > > > > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and > >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, > >who cares? > >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: > >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to > be fast on > >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got > cheated in > >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No but > >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > >> > >>Justin, > >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in > >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient with > >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely different > >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual > >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented tactally > >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has been > >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. > >> Best, > >>Kirt > >> > >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > >> > Silverman > >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM > >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my > >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we > >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior > >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame > >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned > >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of > >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw > >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think > >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip > >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled > >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble > >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get > >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems > >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the > >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in > >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow > >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little > >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of > >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an > >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that > >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. > >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it > >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if > >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose > >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do > >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay > >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to > >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's > >> > letter of recommendation. > >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > >> > Arielle > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> > 0gmail > >> > .com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william > s2%40gmail > >>.com > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 > 3%40sbcglobal.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:01:31 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:01:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> Is new York easier for dog users, cane users, or does it matter? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Díaz Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:06 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Hello all, I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several occasions before but only for short periods of time. Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you! IC _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:12:59 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:12:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <26849D9352DB461F817C56314E8285A2@OwnerPC> References: <515a5930.a3c9440a.2d28.1900@mx.google.com> <26849D9352DB461F817C56314E8285A2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <00f701ce30e2$4fd822f0$ef8868d0$@gmail.com> Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I can stand up just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I don't want to get in someone's grill like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know how you stand all those roller coasters. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie McGinnity wrote: Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mail.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:14:27 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:14:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130402141543.01c9bd48@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00f901ce30e2$84b21ad0$8e165070$@gmail.com> What source were you suppose to check? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 8:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Hi Kirt, I had a great mobility instructor who emphasized the same point of knowing who to ask without looking lost, and as you can imagine this point in some cases can especially important for a girl like when it's late at night or if the area might not be the best. I want to get a gps though because I don't really know the city well and wouldn't have the peace of mind to just go. Although I don't think my cane skills would be the issue, I would probably worry too much about where I was going unless I had some indication that I was at least on the right track. I don't plan to be completely reliant on the gps, but I would have some issues going blindly off in a direction without some way of checking where I am. Another thing to consider is that you can't always garantee that other people will be around, or that they will always be good at giving verbal direction. Some people just aren't good at describing things, especially if they've never had experience with a blind person before, and it can get you into a scrape. For instance, I was on a lesson and we were doing an exercise which involved me finding an ice cream parlor without knowing much more than the name of the street it was on, the address, and a few surrounding businesses. As I was walking towards the parlor I stopped a guy who was taking a walk with what I assumed to be his kids. He told me the parlor was another two blocks away and if I crossed the parallel street and continued another three blocks it would be around there. I took his directions and ended up totally missing the ice cream parlor. I ended up going into a laundramat to get some more direction and the employees there told me I had walked a block too far. It wasn't the guy's fault he gave faulty directions; he was just asked to describe somethign off the cuff and probably had never had experience with a blind person before. nevertheless, my teacher questioned why I didn't check my source or use my own judgement before passing it. (The store next to the ice cream shop was a KFC, but I guess I didn't smell the chicken in my haste to walk three blocks). Anyway, I would just rather have that peace of mind for backup. On 4/2/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good afternoon, Kirt, > > Such an excellent post! Must be the blastomite in us? > At a risk of presuming... CarAt 12:05 PM 4/2/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>Desiree, >> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >>people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >>minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >>to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >>cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >>knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >>that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >>like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >>mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >>forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >>regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >>me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >>well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >>specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >>know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to >>understand that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome >>mobility skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers >>I know, I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing >>maps and following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I >>still feel like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and >>I don't have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even >>though I can see how some very competent people would do that, and >>that's >>fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >>seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >>and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >>politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >>changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >>With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >>giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >>there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >>staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >>back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >>harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >>I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >>certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >>are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >>different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >>incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >>it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >>cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >>probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >>to. >> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, >>don't really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and >>that's a good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do >>something like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often >>as I'd like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I >>realized I had that ability, even though there is really nothing >>special or earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like >>exploring new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm >>not asking everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a >>Federationist, or use a long straight cane or have this huge passion >>for always finding new places like I do in order to be an independent, >>competent blind person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual >>philosophy and personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I >>have to acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >>write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >>coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >>differently than I do. >> All the best, >>Kirt >> >>On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> > Hi Kurt, >> > Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go >> > on to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud >> > cane user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for >> > dogs all that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've >> > been around one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and >> > some of the things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been >> > around several well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood >> > experiences do take precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's >> > not something I can really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >> > now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order >> > for a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their >> > cane skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your >> > existing cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get >> > a dog, simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills >> > along the way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do >> > they feel they should. >> > I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are >> > created equal. Most people who have said this to me have either >> > gone to the Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what >> > I understand, those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so >> > it wouldn't surprise me that their standards were way up there, not >> > that they shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able >> > to take your dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe >> > you want to go to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I >> > agree that dogs don't really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >> > >> > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> Justin, >> >> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being >> >> forced to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave >> >> him home when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear >> >> to work all that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I >> >> realize there are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. >> >> Still, I think it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than >> >> because it really applied to me personally. Also, I should >> >> probably say that I'm not lumping Sarah or anybody else specific >> >> on this list into what I'm about to say because...well, I don't >> >> know most of you in real life, so who am I to judge? >> >> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >> >> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have >> >> plenty of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they >> >> don't feel confident in their ability to travel without them; >> >> sadly, to me, this seems the rule more than the exception. It >> >> kind of makes my heart hurt a little bit when I see friends shy >> >> away from new places and experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >> >> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more >> >> often than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I >> >> can see the advantages of traveling with one and, while they >> >> aren't enough to convince me to become a dog user, they are >> >> certainly real. I'm just saying that, if someone isn't a >> >> confident and comfortable traveler already, having a dog won't >> >> magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if not most) guide dog >> >> users I know weren't confident travelers to begin with, so they >> >> got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of course, I know >> >> a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so it's >> >> certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >> >> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >> >> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a >> >> good dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm >> >> wondering what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water slides. :) >> >> Best, >> >> Kirt >> >> >> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> >>> Cane, dog, what works. >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> >>> Manwaring >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>> >> >>> Sarah, >> >>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >> >>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >> >>> I >> >>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >> >>> next time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have >> >>> your e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better >> >>> than I possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will >> >>> sound to anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back >> >>> because I wanted to get a dog and bring him...or her...or >> >>> whatever to a training >> >>> center.) >> >>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up >> >>> over this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic >> >>> travelers who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible >> >>> travelers who happen to use canes instead. My point is simply >> >>> that, having the personality I do where I want to wait my turn >> >>> like most everyone else, and hearing the kinds of stories I do >> >>> from Sarah and from most dog users I'm acquainted with about how >> >>> ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy their dogs are, I'm pretty darn >> >>> sure I made the right decision for myself. This isn't a >> >>> condemnation, much as some people might construe it as one. >> >>> Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my straight >> >>> cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at home >> >>> and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >> >>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every >> >>> possible excuse I can to distract me from my political science >> >>> homework, because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile >> >>> little head right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock >> >>> against competent dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I >> >>> just meant to say how stories like this reinforce my belief that, >> >>> in choosing not to get a guide dog, I think I made the right >> >>> decision for me. >> >>> Best, >> >>> Kirt >> >>> >> >>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >> >>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >> >>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >> >>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone >> >>>> unsupervised for more than an hour inr 2. >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" > >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>> > >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >> >>>> >> >>>> Mike >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Sarah >> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >> >>>> uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know >> >>>> me at the park anyways. >> >>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >> >>>> broke down and sy had to replace a wheel. >> >>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >> >>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >> >>>> boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to >> >>>> the operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on. >> >>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Sarah, >> >>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >> >>>> said, so I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's >> >>>> situation is different, so I'm not judging every blind person >> >>>> who chooses to take that extra perk and cut through line; for >> >>>> all I know, there really is some other disability or legitimate >> >>>> need for that accommodation with some of us, so farbeit from me >> >>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, >> >>>> and I feel very strongly about this, if you are capable of >> >>>> waiting in line with everybody else, you should. >> >>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >> >>>> caved in to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not >> >>>> proud of it, I don't always measure up to my own standards here, >> >>>> but I nevertheless believe very passionately that we should not >> >>>> take "accommodation" >> >>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in >> >>>> line, and it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait >> >>>> in long lines before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you >> >>>> shouldn't have. >> >>>> That's >> >>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >> >>>> skipped in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed >> >>>> afterwords), but accommodation is only real accommodation if it >> >>>> serves a real need. >> >>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >> >>>> of things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste >> >>>> but it can, if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message >> >>>> about blindness. >> >>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >> >>>> isn't entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, >> >>>> we _have_ to have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we >> >>>> have equal responsibility. >> >>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >> >>>> problems we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought >> >>>> to accept cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want >> >>>> equal access to amusement parks. I think, for many blind >> >>>> people, the attitude which says it's okay to cut in line even >> >>>> though we could wait like everyone else is indicative of a far, >> >>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >> >>>> we are entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal >> >>>> access. We wouldn't phrase it that way...but when we're asking >> >>>> for unnecessary extended time for assignments (I'm not implying >> >>>> that all extended time is unnecessary), demanding the right to a >> >>>> dedicated person to take our notes for us, begging rehab for >> >>>> every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, yes, >> >>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >> >>>> really saying? >> >>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >> >>>> Best, >> >>>> Kirt >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >> >>>> cane? >> >>>> Interesting. >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> >>>> Public Relations Committee >> >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Sarah >> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >> >>>> dog very carefully even when someone else is holding it so >> >>>> nobody pets it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will >> >>>> just say "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>> > >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Sarah, >> >>>> >> >>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide >> >>>> dog user than to a cane user? >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> >>>> Public Relations Committee >> >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Sarah Meeks >> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >> >>>> They are very >> >>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I >> >>>> have a dog. >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> >> >>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> >>>> > >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi, >> >>>> >> >>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >> >>>> went twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five >> >>>> or six and my parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the >> >>>> practice for both me and my sister was to hold onto our >> >>>> brother's stroller to keep with our parents and not get lost. >> >>>> My parents just gave me verbal direction and were with me the >> >>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >> >>>> When I went >> >>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and >> >>>> the Disney staff was very good about either showing me tricks >> >>>> to keep it with me or holding it and then giving it back to me >> >>>> when I got off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the >> >>>> Pirates of the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end >> >>>> at another. If you have a folding cane you can secure it >> >>>> folded with the loop and then put your wrist through the cane >> >>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >> >>>> It won't >> >>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >> >>>> idea sounds good, although some park personelle at other >> >>>> amusement parks get worried about it coming lose. Either way, >> >>>> you shouldn't have any problems with getting the ride people to >> >>>> bring you your cane at the ride exit. >> >>>> >> >>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >> >>>> the cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to >> >>>> Disney for the second time and they were very accomodating. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>> Sophie, >> >>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >> >>>> if I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near >> >>>> by. >> >>>> I >> >>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >> >>>> of "social" >> >>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >> >>>> and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >> >>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >> >>>> problem, but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it >> >>>> yet. A collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me >> >>>> there. On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost >> >>>> always just given my straight cane to the ride attendant and >> >>>> picked it up when the ride is done, but those rides usually >> >>>> start and end at the same place. >> >>>> Waterslides >> >>>> and things are different though, obviously. >> >>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >> >>>> bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few >> >>>> water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally >> >>>> give me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB >> >>>> folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it >> >>>> lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary >> >>>> cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >> >>>> Best, >> >>>> Kirt >> >>>> >> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> >>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >> >>>> cane with a holster. >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>> Cindy Bennett >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >> >>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi everyone, >> >>>> >> >>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >> >>>> parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area >> >>>> or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, >> >>>> many water rides are such that you get on the ride in a >> >>>> different location, often quite a walk away, from the place >> >>>> where you get off of the ride. >> >>>> My >> >>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >> >>>> it would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came >> >>>> loose. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >> >>>> this, because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. >> >>>> It would just be annoying, because I would have to rely on >> >>>> someone to guide me back to these shoe holders that are often >> >>>> at the entrance of the ride. >> >>>> >> >>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >> >>>> rides? >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Cindy Bennett >> >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >> >>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >>>> >> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willi >> >>>> a >> >>>> ms2 >> >>>> %40gmail >> >>>> .com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >> >>>> d >> >>>> e%4 >> >>>> 0gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarin >> >>>> e >> >>>> t104 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Kaiti >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl9 >> >>>> 2 >> >>>> %40gm >> >>>> ail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusba >> >>>> u >> >>>> m%40gmail.c >> >>>> om >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl9 >> >>>> 2 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusba >> >>>> u >> >>>> m%40gmail.c >> >>>> om >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >> >>>> d >> >>>> e%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl9 >> >>>> 2 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40pani >> >>>> x >> >>>> .com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl9 >> >>>> 2 >> >>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.c >> >>> om >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> >>> .com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >>.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:22:06 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:22:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fb01ce30e3$95e9f3d0$c1bddb70$@gmail.com> You had a terrible instructor. Mean also. What GPS do you folks use? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree Oudinot Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides Kurt, I won't try to discredit your experiences, since personal experience is about as subjective as anything can be. I'll explain how I came to the conclusion I described above, though, which is equally as subjective. When I was in high school, I had a mobility instructor who basically glorified the idea of having a guide dog in the way that you and others have described. She told me that a dog helps you become more confident in your travel skills, makes you stick out less, etc. I was very skeptical about everything she said, because, in my experience, whether you have a cane or dog, you're considered "different" by society, and, therefore, sticking out is just par for the course. So, even through her overzealous efforts to convert me to believing that a dog is the ultimate answer to every travel conundrum, she did tell me that no guide dog school would accept a person whose cane skills weren't great. In hindsight, I believe she was saying all this to put me down about my cane skills, which weren't that bad at all. my problem has always been visualizing maps in my head, in fact. Mobility instructors always plopped maps they made in front of me, turning them this way and that to try to get me to understand how the streets would look once you turned in a specific compass direction. That method of teaching confused the hell out of me. So, she started to believe I was a hopeless case, I guess. To this day, I still am primarily a route traveler, but I wonder sometimes if I really have as much of a faulty brain as I was told (she wanted to have me tested for learning disabilities, which my mom wouldn't hear of) or if I just didn't learn about cardinal directions and maps in such a way that I could understand. I should also point out that classes like geometry always completely baffled me, and when I was in elementary school, when we used to do geography and had to estimate how many miles or kilometers one place on a map was from another, I failed miserably. Anyway, one day this mobility instructor decided to do a guide dog simulation with me, to help convert me to her way of thinking, I suppose. I held onto a harness, and without any warning, she started flat-out running. When I asked her why, she said it was because all guide dogs and their handlers walk at a brisk pace. Fine, but I don't think they sprint as if they're trying to win the 50-yard dash! After I pointed this out, she got pretty snippy with me. Snide remarks about my travel skills became the order of the day from then on. So, what this taught me was that one had to live up to a high standard if they wanted to get a dog. I didn't want one, but, perhaps mistakenly, I believed this to be the case. This is why it was interesting for me to read your perspective, and watch this discussion unfold, because I honestly thought that all guide dog handlers were competent and confident travelers. Of course, as with everything else, there would have to be exceptions, and I did know of one lady in particular who worked her dog practically until the day it died, despite the dog developing severe arthritis. But, as i said, I thought that was so far out of the norm that I chalked it up to the lady being, shall we say, not a very nice person, as opposed to being so set in her ways that maybe she felt unable to travel without the dog she had come to depend on. On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Desiree, > I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different > people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have > minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go > to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident > cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and > knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond > that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you > like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my > mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so > forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, > regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to > me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as > well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any > specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I > know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. > I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand > that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility > skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, > I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and > following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel > like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't > have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I > can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's > fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student > seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such > and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I > politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I > changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. > With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS > giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over > there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after > staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked > back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few > harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later > I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I > certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines > are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally > different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how > incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, > it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good > cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would > probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted > to. > Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't > really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a > good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something > like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd > like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I > had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or > earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring > new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking > everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or > use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding > new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind > person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and > personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to > acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. > Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to > write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm > coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it > differently than I do. > All the best, > Kirt > > On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Hi Kurt, >> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go >> on to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been >> around one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of >> the things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around >> several well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your >> existing cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a >> dog, simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along >> the way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel >> they should. >> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs >> don't really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Justin, >>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being >>> forced to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave >>> him home when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to >>> work all that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I >>> realize there are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. >>> Still, I think it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than >>> because it really applied to me personally. Also, I should probably >>> say that I'm not lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list >>> into what I'm about to say because...well, I don't know most of you >>> in real life, so who am I to judge? >>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have >>> plenty of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't >>> feel confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to >>> me, this seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes >>> my heart hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new >>> places and experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough >>> to convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm >>> just saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable >>> traveler already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. >>> Sadly, many (if not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident >>> travelers to begin with, so they got a dog instead of getting >>> quality training. Of course, I know a whole bunch of cane users >>> with the same problem, so it's certainly not the dog's fault if the >>> handler can't get where he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, >>> and I'm sure most competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is >>> that getting a good dog is no substitute for getting good >>> training...but now I'm wondering what any of this has to do with >>> riding rollercoasters and water slides. :) >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >>>> I don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >>>> next time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have >>>> your e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better >>>> than I possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will >>>> sound to anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back >>>> because I wanted to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever >>>> to a training >>>> center.) >>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up >>>> over this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic >>>> travelers who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible >>>> travelers who happen to use canes instead. My point is simply >>>> that, having the personality I do where I want to wait my turn like >>>> most everyone else, and hearing the kinds of stories I do from >>>> Sarah and from most dog users I'm acquainted with about how >>>> ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy their dogs are, I'm pretty darn >>>> sure I made the right decision for myself. This isn't a >>>> condemnation, much as some people might construe it as one. Canes >>>> can certainly bring issues of their own...but my straight cane >>>> won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every >>>> possible excuse I can to distract me from my political science >>>> homework, because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile >>>> little head right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock >>>> against competent dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I >>>> just meant to say how stories like this reinforce my belief that, >>>> in choosing not to get a guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>> uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know >>>>> me at the park anyways. >>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>> broke down and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>> boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>> operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>> said, so I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's >>>>> situation is different, so I'm not judging every blind person who >>>>> chooses to take that extra perk and cut through line; for all I >>>>> know, there really is some other disability or legitimate need for >>>>> that accommodation with some of us, so farbeit from me to condemn >>>>> everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and I feel very >>>>> strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line with >>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've caved >>>>> in to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, >>>>> I don't always measure up to my own standards here, but I >>>>> nevertheless believe very passionately that we should not take >>>>> "accommodation" >>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>> and it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long >>>>> lines before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>> That's >>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>> skipped in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed >>>>> afterwords), but accommodation is only real accommodation if it >>>>> serves a real need. >>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>> of things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but >>>>> it can, if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message about >>>>> blindness. >>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>> isn't entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>> _have_ to have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have >>>>> equal responsibility. >>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>> problems we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to >>>>> accept cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want equal >>>>> access to amusement parks. I think, for many blind people, the >>>>> attitude which says it's okay to cut in line even though we could >>>>> wait like everyone else is indicative of a far, far larger >>>>> problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that we are >>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>> wouldn't phrase it that way...but when we're asking for >>>>> unnecessary extended time for assignments (I'm not implying that >>>>> all extended time is unnecessary), demanding the right to a >>>>> dedicated person to take our notes for us, begging rehab for every >>>>> piece of the newest and greatest technology and, yes, cutting in >>>>> lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're really saying? >>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>> cane? >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog >>>>> very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets >>>>> it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say >>>>> "Wait 4 hours like everyone else." >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> >>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>> user than to a cane user? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>> They are very >>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>> a dog. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>> went twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or >>>>> six and my parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice >>>>> for both me and my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller >>>>> to keep with our parents and not get lost. My parents just gave >>>>> me verbal direction and were with me the entire time, so there >>>>> really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>> When I went >>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>> Disney staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep >>>>> it with me or holding it and then giving it back to me when I got >>>>> off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of >>>>> the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at another. >>>>> If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the loop >>>>> and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just >>>>> let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>> It won't >>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>> idea sounds good, although some park personelle at other >>>>> amusement parks get worried about it coming lose. Either way, >>>>> you shouldn't have any problems with getting the ride people to >>>>> bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>> the cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to >>>>> Disney for the second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Sophie, >>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if >>>>> I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>> I >>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>> of "social" >>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>> and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem, >>>>> but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A >>>>> collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there. >>>>> On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just >>>>> given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up >>>>> when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at >>>>> the same place. >>>>> Waterslides >>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>> bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few >>>>> water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give >>>>> me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB >>>>> folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it >>>>> lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary >>>>> cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>> cane with a holster. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>> parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area >>>>> or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many >>>>> water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different >>>>> location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get >>>>> off of the ride. >>>>> My >>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it >>>>> would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>> >>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this, >>>>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would >>>>> just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to >>>>> guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the >>>>> entrance of the ride. >>>>> >>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>> rides? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>> >>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>> ms2 >>>>> %40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude% >>>> 40gmail.c >>>> om >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams >>>> 2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40 >>> gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gm > ail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:22:54 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:22:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fd01ce30e3$b2cd46f0$1867d4d0$@gmail.com> You got good skills Desiree. Don't let noone tell you different. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree Oudinot Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides Kurt, I won't try to discredit your experiences, since personal experience is about as subjective as anything can be. I'll explain how I came to the conclusion I described above, though, which is equally as subjective. When I was in high school, I had a mobility instructor who basically glorified the idea of having a guide dog in the way that you and others have described. She told me that a dog helps you become more confident in your travel skills, makes you stick out less, etc. I was very skeptical about everything she said, because, in my experience, whether you have a cane or dog, you're considered "different" by society, and, therefore, sticking out is just par for the course. So, even through her overzealous efforts to convert me to believing that a dog is the ultimate answer to every travel conundrum, she did tell me that no guide dog school would accept a person whose cane skills weren't great. In hindsight, I believe she was saying all this to put me down about my cane skills, which weren't that bad at all. my problem has always been visualizing maps in my head, in fact. Mobility instructors always plopped maps they made in front of me, turning them this way and that to try to get me to understand how the streets would look once you turned in a specific compass direction. That method of teaching confused the hell out of me. So, she started to believe I was a hopeless case, I guess. To this day, I still am primarily a route traveler, but I wonder sometimes if I really have as much of a faulty brain as I was told (she wanted to have me tested for learning disabilities, which my mom wouldn't hear of) or if I just didn't learn about cardinal directions and maps in such a way that I could understand. I should also point out that classes like geometry always completely baffled me, and when I was in elementary school, when we used to do geography and had to estimate how many miles or kilometers one place on a map was from another, I failed miserably. Anyway, one day this mobility instructor decided to do a guide dog simulation with me, to help convert me to her way of thinking, I suppose. I held onto a harness, and without any warning, she started flat-out running. When I asked her why, she said it was because all guide dogs and their handlers walk at a brisk pace. Fine, but I don't think they sprint as if they're trying to win the 50-yard dash! After I pointed this out, she got pretty snippy with me. Snide remarks about my travel skills became the order of the day from then on. So, what this taught me was that one had to live up to a high standard if they wanted to get a dog. I didn't want one, but, perhaps mistakenly, I believed this to be the case. This is why it was interesting for me to read your perspective, and watch this discussion unfold, because I honestly thought that all guide dog handlers were competent and confident travelers. Of course, as with everything else, there would have to be exceptions, and I did know of one lady in particular who worked her dog practically until the day it died, despite the dog developing severe arthritis. But, as i said, I thought that was so far out of the norm that I chalked it up to the lady being, shall we say, not a very nice person, as opposed to being so set in her ways that maybe she felt unable to travel without the dog she had come to depend on. On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Desiree, > I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different > people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have > minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go > to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident > cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and > knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond > that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you > like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my > mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so > forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, > regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to > me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as > well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any > specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I > know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. > I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand > that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility > skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, > I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and > following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel > like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't > have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I > can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's > fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student > seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such > and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I > politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I > changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. > With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS > giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over > there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after > staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked > back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few > harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later > I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I > certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines > are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally > different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how > incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, > it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good > cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would > probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted > to. > Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't > really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a > good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something > like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd > like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I > had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or > earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring > new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking > everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or > use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding > new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind > person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and > personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to > acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. > Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to > write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm > coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it > differently than I do. > All the best, > Kirt > > On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Hi Kurt, >> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >> should. >> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Justin, >>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>> who am I to judge? >>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>> slides. :) >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>> >>>> Sarah, >>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I >>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next >>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted >>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>> center.) >>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else, >>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe >>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent >>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>> uncomfortable >>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>> anyways. >>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>> broke down >>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>> boarding >>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>> operator if they >>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>> said, so I'll >>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>> different, so >>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>> perk and >>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>> disability or >>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>> farbeit from me >>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>> I feel >>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>> with >>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>> caved in to >>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>> don't always >>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>> very >>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>> and it >>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>> before (if >>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>> That's >>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>> skipped in >>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>> but >>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>> need. >>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>> of things >>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>> if we aren't >>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>> isn't >>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>> _have_ to have >>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>> responsibility. >>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>> problems we >>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>> parks. I >>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>> to cut in >>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>> of a far, >>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>> we are >>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>> wouldn't >>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>> extended time for >>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>> unnecessary), >>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>> us, begging >>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>> yes, >>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>> really saying? >>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>> cane? >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>> dog very >>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>> while >>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>> hours like >>>>> everyone else." >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Sarah, >>>>> >>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>> user than >>>>> to a cane user? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>> They are very >>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>> a dog. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>> went twice >>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>> parents >>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>> sister >>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>> and not >>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>> with me the >>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>> When I went >>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>> Disney >>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>> with me or >>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>> water >>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>> rides which >>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>> cane you can >>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>> the cane >>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>> It won't >>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>> idea sounds >>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>> get worried >>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>> problems with >>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>> the cane >>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>> the >>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Sophie, >>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>> if I was >>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>> I >>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>> of "social" >>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>> and to meet >>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>> or folding >>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>> big rides >>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>> ride >>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>> rides usually >>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>> Waterslides >>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>> bits I could >>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>> myself over >>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>> need to buy >>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>> for the >>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>> as my >>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>> cane with >>>>> a holster. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Cindy >>>>> Bennett >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>> parks, I >>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>> exit >>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>> are such >>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>> walk away, >>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>> My >>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>> it would be >>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>> >>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>> this, because >>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>> be >>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>> back to >>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>> >>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>> rides? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>> >>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>> ms2 >>>>> %40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:24:28 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:24:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides In-Reply-To: References: <515a592e.a3c9440a.2d28.18fd@mx.google.com> <000c01ce2e95$57a6ff50$06f4fdf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ff01ce30e3$eaf7a250$c0e6e6f0$@gmail.com> Sometimes getting lost for a little is how you orientate. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides Keitie, I won't deny that having a GPS is incredibly useful in unfamiliar places; still, to me, it doesn't seem necessary. It's convenient and helpful (sometimes) but I would almost suggest getting used to traveling in new places without it, just so you don't build a dependence. The skill that seems to serve me the best, which I learned very well from my cane travel teacher (who, incidentally, happens to be blind), is knowing how to ask the right questions without looking lost. I've found that, even if I don't know where in the world I'm supposed to go, I'd best be confident and in control when I'm asking questions so I get the information I need instead of a well-meaning follower for the next half hour. ;) I guess all I'm trying to say is that not having a GPS need not be a reason for not going out. If you want to explore, do it. Inconvenience and a longer walk be damned. (at least sometimes...I recognize the need for efficiency in most situations.) I'm moving out of my parents' house soon (try getting quality independence training then moving back home. It's a crazy trip for sure.), so I'll be in a situation where I can travel the way I like more often, without having to go out of my way to do so. I know this is very disjointed but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Best, Kirt On 4/2/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > That's actually what I'm shooting for, too. I'm pretty much cooped up > in my campus for this semester with my course load, but next semester > I'll have an apartment with a few roommates and won't be stuck going > from my dorm, to class, to the dining halls, and back again. I'd love > to be able to walk to the convenience store just off campus, or the > Krogers down the road to go on a quick run for groceries. Our > university offers a shuttle to Wal-Mart on Saturdays, and one of my > roommates will have her car here, but for me it is about not being > beholden to travel schedules. If I want to walk to the store to grab > a few things then as long as it's not already dark outside or > something I want to have the option of doing it available to me. AS > Kirt said about the unfamiliar route too, I also want to be able to > look at the bus routes online, plan a route, and take a gps and just > get wherever I want to go by bus and walking. I hope to be able to > explore a lot more next semester. (the first step in that will be to > get a gps, but I'm holding out for the Sendero IPhone app to come > out). > > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> I'm making my assumptions based on all the blind dog users I know, >> both in and out of the Federation. Of course there are plenty of >> competent dog users out there and I didn't mean to imply that there >> aren't. My point was only that most dog users I know, just like most >> cane users I know, aren't all that competent, by the definition I gave >> in my previous e-mail. The only difference is that many people I know >> who apply to go to guide dog school (myself a couple years back >> included), seem to be doing it because they aren't competent travelers >> and they want something external to fix that internal issue. I have >> nothing negative to say about competent dog users; more power to them >> for choosing a travel aid which increases their independence. Sadly, >> and this is not a criticism of the genuinely capable people who use >> dogs, but most dog-users I know tend to use their dogs as a crutch >> rather than a tool to increase independence. Am I making any sense? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Desiree, >>> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different >>> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have >>> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go >>> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident >>> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and >>> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond >>> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you >>> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my >>> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so >>> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want, >>> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to >>> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as >>> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any >>> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I >>> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with. >>> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand >>> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility >>> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know, >>> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and >>> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel >>> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't >>> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I >>> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's >>> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student >>> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such >>> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I >>> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I >>> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all. >>> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS >>> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over >>> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after >>> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked >>> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few >>> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later >>> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I >>> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines >>> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally >>> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how >>> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me, >>> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good >>> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would >>> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted >>> to. >>> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't >>> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a >>> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something >>> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd >>> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I >>> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or >>> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring >>> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking >>> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or >>> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding >>> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind >>> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and >>> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to >>> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently. >>> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to >>> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm >>> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it >>> differently than I do. >>> All the best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>>> Hi Kurt, >>>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on >>>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane >>>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all >>>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around >>>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the >>>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several >>>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take >>>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can >>>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it. >>>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for >>>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane >>>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing >>>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog, >>>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the >>>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they >>>> should. >>>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created >>>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the >>>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand, >>>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't >>>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they >>>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your >>>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go >>>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't >>>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days. >>>> >>>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Justin, >>>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced >>>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home >>>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all >>>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there >>>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think >>>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really >>>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not >>>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm >>>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so >>>>> who am I to judge? >>>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their >>>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty >>>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel >>>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this >>>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart >>>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and >>>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas. >>>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often >>>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see >>>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to >>>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just >>>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler >>>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if >>>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin >>>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of >>>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so >>>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where >>>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most >>>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good >>>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering >>>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water >>>>> slides. :) >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Cane, dog, what works. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>> Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>> >>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get >>>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. >>>>>> I >>>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the >>>>>> next >>>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your >>>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I >>>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to >>>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training >>>>>> center.) >>>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over >>>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers >>>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who >>>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the >>>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone >>>>>> else, >>>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog >>>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy >>>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for >>>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might >>>>>> construe >>>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my >>>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at >>>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa. >>>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible >>>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework, >>>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head >>>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against >>>>>> competent >>>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how >>>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a >>>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah wrote: >>>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out >>>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house. >>>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised >>>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the >>>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park >>>>>>> anyways. >>>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2 >>>>>>> broke down >>>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel. >>>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride. >>>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate >>>>>>> boarding >>>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the >>>>>>> operator if they >>>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on. >>>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just >>>>>>> said, so I'll >>>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is >>>>>>> different, so >>>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra >>>>>>> perk and >>>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other >>>>>>> disability or >>>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so >>>>>>> farbeit from me >>>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and >>>>>>> I feel >>>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> everybody else, you should. >>>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've >>>>>>> caved in to >>>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I >>>>>>> don't always >>>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation" >>>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line, >>>>>>> and it >>>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines >>>>>>> before (if >>>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have. >>>>>>> That's >>>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly >>>>>>> skipped in >>>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords), >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real >>>>>>> need. >>>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage >>>>>>> of things >>>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can, >>>>>>> if we aren't >>>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness. >>>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back, >>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we >>>>>>> _have_ to have >>>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal >>>>>>> responsibility. >>>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger >>>>>>> problems we >>>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept >>>>>>> cheerfully (or >>>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement >>>>>>> parks. I >>>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay >>>>>>> to cut in >>>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative >>>>>>> of a far, >>>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that >>>>>>> we are >>>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We >>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary >>>>>>> extended time for >>>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is >>>>>>> unnecessary), >>>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for >>>>>>> us, begging >>>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and, >>>>>>> yes, >>>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're >>>>>>> really saying? >>>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a >>>>>>> cane? >>>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the >>>>>>> dog very >>>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it >>>>>>> while >>>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4 >>>>>>> hours like >>>>>>> everyone else." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog >>>>>>> user than >>>>>>> to a cane user? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Sarah Meeks >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags. >>>>>>> They are very >>>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have >>>>>>> a dog. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I >>>>>>> went twice >>>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my >>>>>>> parents >>>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my >>>>>>> sister >>>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents >>>>>>> and not >>>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were >>>>>>> with me the >>>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane. >>>>>>> When I went >>>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the >>>>>>> Disney >>>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it >>>>>>> with me or >>>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on >>>>>>> water >>>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean >>>>>>> rides which >>>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding >>>>>>> cane you can >>>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something. >>>>>>> It won't >>>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster >>>>>>> idea sounds >>>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks >>>>>>> get worried >>>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any >>>>>>> problems with >>>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with >>>>>>> the cane >>>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Sophie, >>>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone >>>>>>> if I was >>>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds >>>>>>> of "social" >>>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up >>>>>>> and to meet >>>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know. >>>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no >>>>>>> problem, but I'll >>>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible >>>>>>> or folding >>>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or >>>>>>> big rides >>>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the >>>>>>> ride >>>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those >>>>>>> rides usually >>>>>>> start and end at the same place. >>>>>>> Waterslides >>>>>>> and things are different though, obviously. >>>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful >>>>>>> bits I could >>>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks >>>>>>> myself over >>>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I >>>>>>> need to buy >>>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine >>>>>>> for the >>>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not >>>>>>> as my >>>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding >>>>>>> cane with >>>>>>> a holster. >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>> Bennett >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM >>>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme >>>>>>> parks, I >>>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the >>>>>>> exit >>>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides >>>>>>> are such >>>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a >>>>>>> walk away, >>>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that >>>>>>> it would be >>>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for >>>>>>> this, because >>>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me >>>>>>> back to >>>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water >>>>>>> rides? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative >>>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >>>>>>> ms2 >>>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:42:19 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 23:42:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] extra time on tests was Re: Lines In-Reply-To: <6D050D7A-47DD-4355-94CC-A65C6AB5D857@gmail.com> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <6D050D7A-47DD-4355-94CC-A65C6AB5D857@gmail.com> Message-ID: <010f01ce30e6$693d9d20$3bb8d760$@gmail.com> That's all I'm saying. I've had one hell of a semester, and my computer, my brand new computer I might add, crashed on me Tuesday of this week. I just got it back last night. What a nice pretty bow to place on this semester. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laurel Wheeler Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 1:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] extra time on tests was Re: Lines First off, hope y'all don't mind. I changed the subject line to better reflect our conversation. I do take extra time on tests at my university. I will say that I am studying French and Russian. I think that a student should take extra time depending on their situation. For example, my school typically does a poor job getting me exams in electronic formats, and I usually have to stop in the middle of my exam and make the student disability testing center fix their mistakes so I can correctly access parts of my exam. I need my full time and a half, or double time, to complete exams because of this. I will also say that when reading large volumes of foreign language material, it takes me a little longer than my sighted class mates who can just scan through the material to answer the questions. I will say though that I am only an advocate of using your full time and a half, or double time, if the situation requires it. For example, your disability office screwing up your exam to begin with, or some other situation where you have a proctor or something. I really honestly believe that we should have an opinion on this on a case by case basis. My situation is different from Arielle's, and Arielle's situation is different from Justin's etc. Just my thoughts, Laurel On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Danielle Sykora wrote: > Hi all, > I believe that extra time should be used sparingly; only when it is > really necessary. We must be careful to use the accomidations we have > been given appropriately. Like others have said, I only use extra time > when I experience technological issues or if there are complicated > daigrams. > > As for waiting in lines, this oppurtunity should also only be used if > it is necessary. Most of us are completely able to stand in a line > just like sighted people. Although it might seem tempting to cut a > line and skip the waiting time, we might be causing more harm than we > realize. > Many people with guide dogs choose not to bring their dogs to > amusement parks so this wouldn't be a big issue. It is unfair to have > a dog waiting in lines (possibly in extreme heat) for long periods of > time. > Just my opinion, > Danielle > > On 4/2/13, Jessica Silva wrote: >> >> Hello: >> Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but I >> honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide dogs >> shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think it's right >> that the dog has to go through so much especially at a waterpark. I >> understand we want to look more independent and what not, but putting a dog >> through torture like that, at a crowded waterpark, waiting for hours and >> hours possibly in lines if you choose to stand in a line just seems >> inhumane to me. >> Jess >> >> Check out my blog: >> http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >> http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >>> Good morning, >>> >>> It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >>> with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, >>> who cares? >>> Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >>>> I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to be fast >>>> on >>>> a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got cheated >>>> in >>>> the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No >>>> but >>>> seriously, I use any tool available to me. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Manwaring >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >>>> >>>> Justin, >>>> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >>>> hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >>>> with >>>> braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >>>> different >>>> subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently visual >>>> information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >>>> tactally >>>> or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has >>>> been >>>> said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>>> Silverman >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my >>>>> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we >>>>> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >>>>> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >>>>> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >>>>> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned >>>>> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>>>> understand why it bothers me (and many of >>>>> us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >>>>> conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >>>>> whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip >>>>> the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled >>>>> person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >>>>> standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >>>>> uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>>>> legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >>>>> special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in >>>>> line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >>>>> blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little >>>>> to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>>>> self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>>>> accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >>>>> accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. >>>>> If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it >>>>> will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >>>>> an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >>>>> than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >>>>> not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>>>> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay >>>>> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >>>>> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>>>> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>>>> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >>>>> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >>>>> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >>>>> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >>>>> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to >>>>> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's >>>>> letter of recommendation. >>>>> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >>>>> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>>> 0gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva2003%40sbcgl obal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 04:16:15 2013 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (ryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:16:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Over 1, 500 Signatures to Support Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities In-Reply-To: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D49658FB1@CH1PRD0710MB380.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D49658FB1@CH1PRD0710MB380.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: hi, I have posted this on both social medias and on my vurtual games announcements and website. Once i have the website updated, if people want, I can post the link up here. Thanks and have a good day all! Ryan On 4/4/13, Lewis, Anil wrote: > > We continue our struggle to phase out the use of Special Wage Certificates > that allow employers to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal > minimum wage. The Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act of 2013 (HR > 831), to repeal Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act, has been > introduced and currently has 23 co-sponsors. We have found a true champion > in our Sponsor, Congressman Gregg Harper of Mississippi. We have developed > an online petition to assist us in our effort to demonstrate public support > and to promote public awareness of our Fair Wage issue. > > To sign the petition, you should visit > www.nfb.org/fair-wages-petition. > > We would like to thank those of you who have signed the petition and > circulated the information to your family and friends. To those of you that > meant to sign, but just forgot to get around to it. Now is the time to get > around to it. We currently have over 1,500 signatures on our petition, and > with your continued assistance, we should be able to get 2,000 signatures > before the end of the week. > > It is not enough for you to sign the petition. You should encourage your > friends, family, colleagues and classmates to sign as well. Post the > information to Facebook. Tweet about it. Send emails to your network of > friends. If you do not have an email address, find several people that have > email and ask them to go online and sign the petition. Then encourage them > to encourage their family and friends. Please consider other ways you can > spread the word about our struggle. > > For more information about the Fair Wage issue visit: > http://www.nfb.org/fair-wages > > > Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. > Director of Advocacy and Policy > > "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" > http://www.nfb.org/fairwages > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place > Baltimore, Maryland 21230 > (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) > (410) 685-5653 (FAX) > Email: alewis at nfb.org > Web: www.nfb.org > twitter: @anillife > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.com > -- ---------------- Ryan Bishop E-Mail Address: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Mobile Number: --- "A Loss of site, Never a loss of vission" From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Fri Apr 5 09:00:45 2013 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (Leye-Shprintse) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 02:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] GPS (was guide dogs and their handlers) Message-ID: <1365152445.89569.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> BS"D Justin, I've an iPhone which I use Navigon with. I'm a newbie tough. Kind regards, Leye-Shprintse From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 5 17:13:23 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:13:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130405100402.01c85eb0@comcast.net> Good morning, Kirt, Perhaps, our views of guide dog's placement within the blind human animal experiment differ. You seem to believe, and do correct me if I am seeing things, are that, since these guide dogs have been trained to serve humans, it should, in all cased trump nature. I am in fundamental disagreement with such a premise. If you think of it, these poor animal's innate quality of servitude of humans is being exploited, to magnificent proportions, and I don't want party to that. This is why I can't ever see myself working with a dog. Happy Frieday! Car, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Kar, > First, while I think there is absolutely a time and place for >profanity (you should have heard me when I accidentally spilled a cup >of hot tea at a coffee shop just a few days ago), I don't think it >suits a publicly archived mailing list. This is coming from someone >who can curse like a completely drunk sailor, believe me, I just don't >think this is the right venue for language like that. > Now on to the substance of my email. As should be completely >obvious by now, I'm not a dog user and (probably) will never be one. >Still I think leaving Fido home (as most guide dogs are trained to >deal with), would be a better option than bringing the pooch to the >amusement park. If you want to go with a friend (as most people >probably will), more power to you. Still, if you have to rely on that >friend to get you wherever you need to go, and you aren't capable of >handling yourself should you get separated, either by accident or by >choice, then I think you probably need some mobility training. I hate >making generalizations but, I think, that's a safe one to make. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/4/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Jess,, > > > > If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that > > they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed > > in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved > > to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My > > suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a > > friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? > > I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. > > Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car > > , > > > > Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: > > > >>Hello: > >>Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but > >>I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide > >>dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think > >>it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a > >>waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what > >>not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded > >>waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you > >>choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. > >>Jess > >> > >>Check out my blog: > >>http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva > >>http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com > >> > >> > >> > >>------------------------------ > >>On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> > >> >Good morning, > >> > > >> > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and > >> >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, > >> >who cares? > >> >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: > >> >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to > >> be fast on > >> >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got > >> cheated in > >> >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No > >> >> but > >> >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. > >> >> > >> >>-----Original Message----- > >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > >> >> Manwaring > >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM > >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > >> >> > >> >>Justin, > >> >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in > >> >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient > >> >> with > >> >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely > >> >> different > >> >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently > >> >> visual > >> >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented > >> >> tactally > >> >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has > >> >> been > >> >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. > >> >> Best, > >> >>Kirt > >> >> > >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > >> >> > Silverman > >> >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM > >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi all, > >> >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up > >> >> > my > >> >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that > >> >> > we > >> >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > >> >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior > >> >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame > >> >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have > >> >> > learned > >> >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > >> >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of > >> >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw > >> >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think > >> >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and > >> >> > skip > >> >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or > >> >> > crippled > >> >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble > >> >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get > >> >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems > >> >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the > >> >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing > >> >> > in > >> >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow > >> >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have > >> >> > little > >> >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of > >> >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an > >> >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that > >> >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of > >> >> > normalcy. > >> >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, > >> >> > it > >> >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if > >> >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose > >> >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do > >> >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > >> >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to > >> >> > pay > >> >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > >> >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > >> >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > >> >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra > >> >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > >> >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. > >> >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal > >> >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message > >> >> > to > >> >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a > >> >> > professor's > >> >> > letter of recommendation. > >> >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > >> >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > >> >> > Arielle > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> > for > >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> >> > 0gmail > >> >> > .com > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> > for > >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > >> >> > mail.com > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >>nabs-l mailing list > >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >>nabs-l: > >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william > >> s2%40gmail > >> >>.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >>nabs-l mailing list > >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for nabs-l: > >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40 > comcast.net > >> > > >> > > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >nabs-l mailing list > >> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for nabs-l: > >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 > >> 3%40sbcglobal.net > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 17:50:55 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:50:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130405100402.01c85eb0@comcast.net> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130405100402.01c85eb0@comcast.net> Message-ID: Car, I rarely get to correct people; usually, I'm the one being corrected in one way or another. So please don't blame me for relishing this rare opportunity...Carly, you stand corrected! ;) I think, if you aren't able to use a cane and travel independently without a dog, you probably have no business getting one. I say that as a proud and comfortable cane user; still, most of my dog using friends (especially the ones with solid mobility skills), have told me that there are situations where they would never bring their dog, but where they still want to travel independently. I think most people who have said anything about this, with the exception of Peter and Sarah have agreed that they would probably not take a dog to an amusement park. The reasons they gave were similar to your own; from my obviously limited experience, I agree. All I'm saying is that if you go to an amusement park you shouldn't have to rely on your friend to get you wherever you want to go and, if you get separated or decide to go to the bathroom or something, you shouldn't expect your friend to always be attached to you at the hip. Even teenage couples who can't get their hands off of each other won't always go on every ride together, one person might want to get food from the pizza place while the other person gets food at the bbq joint just around the corner, or on the other side of the food court, or whatever. All I'm saying is, whether you're a cane user or a dog user or prefer sighted guide, I would hope you know how to handle yourself when you need or want to do something that most people do on their own. I'll give a couple more examples cause I'm bored and I have some time to kill. I was at a college basketball game with my family a couple weeks back. I had no qualms whatsoever about using sighted guide once we got in the arena and started walking to our seats; I could've had them constantly yell to tell me where they were, I've done it that way before in training...but, in that situation, I decided sighted guide was more convenient so I did it. However, when I had to go use the restroom I was totally fine getting out of my seat, going to take care of my business, finding the concession stand and buying more unhealthy crap which made me really need the restroom later and walking back to my seat without any problem. I prefer doing that instead of asking other people to interrupt the activity they payed for to help me do something I'm more than capable of doing on my own. Am I making any sense? Best, Kirt On 4/5/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Kirt, > > Perhaps, our views of guide dog's placement within the blind human > animal experiment differ. You seem to believe, and do correct me if I > am seeing things, are that, since these guide dogs have been trained > to serve humans, it should, in all cased trump nature. I am in > fundamental disagreement with such a premise. If you think of it, > these poor animal's innate quality of servitude of humans is being > exploited, to magnificent proportions, and I don't want party to > that. This is why I can't ever see myself working with a dog. > Happy Frieday! Car, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>Kar, >> First, while I think there is absolutely a time and place for >>profanity (you should have heard me when I accidentally spilled a cup >>of hot tea at a coffee shop just a few days ago), I don't think it >>suits a publicly archived mailing list. This is coming from someone >>who can curse like a completely drunk sailor, believe me, I just don't >>think this is the right venue for language like that. >> Now on to the substance of my email. As should be completely >>obvious by now, I'm not a dog user and (probably) will never be one. >>Still I think leaving Fido home (as most guide dogs are trained to >>deal with), would be a better option than bringing the pooch to the >>amusement park. If you want to go with a friend (as most people >>probably will), more power to you. Still, if you have to rely on that >>friend to get you wherever you need to go, and you aren't capable of >>handling yourself should you get separated, either by accident or by >>choice, then I think you probably need some mobility training. I hate >>making generalizations but, I think, that's a safe one to make. >> Best, >>Kirt >> >>On 4/4/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> > Good morning, Jess,, >> > >> > If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that >> > they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed >> > in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved >> > to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My >> > suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a >> > friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? >> > I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. >> > Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car >> > , >> > >> > Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: >> > >> >>Hello: >> >>Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but >> >>I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide >> >>dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think >> >>it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a >> >>waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what >> >>not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded >> >>waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you >> >>choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. >> >>Jess >> >> >> >>Check out my blog: >> >>http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >> >>http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------ >> >>On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >> >> >Good morning, >> >> > >> >> > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >> >> >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, >> >> >who cares? >> >> >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >> >> >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to >> >> be fast on >> >> >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got >> >> cheated in >> >> >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) >> >> >> No >> >> >> but >> >> >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> >> >> Manwaring >> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >> >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> >> >> >> >>Justin, >> >> >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; >> >> >> in >> >> >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as >> >> >> efficient >> >> >> with >> >> >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> >> >> different >> >> >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently >> >> >> visual >> >> >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >> >> >> tactally >> >> >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as >> >> >> has >> >> >> been >> >> >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >> >> >> Best, >> >> >>Kirt >> >> >> >> >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >> >> > Arielle >> >> >> > Silverman >> >> >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >> >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Hi all, >> >> >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing >> >> >> > up >> >> >> > my >> >> >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so >> >> >> > that >> >> >> > we >> >> >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >> >> >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our >> >> >> > behavior >> >> >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of >> >> >> > shame >> >> >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >> >> >> > learned >> >> >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >> >> >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of >> >> >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we >> >> >> > draw >> >> >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I >> >> >> > think >> >> >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and >> >> >> > skip >> >> >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or >> >> >> > crippled >> >> >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have >> >> >> > trouble >> >> >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >> >> >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >> >> >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on >> >> >> > standing >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my >> >> >> > fellow >> >> >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >> >> >> > little >> >> >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >> >> >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >> >> >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from >> >> >> > that >> >> >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >> >> >> > normalcy. >> >> >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly >> >> >> > necessary, >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But >> >> >> > if >> >> >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to >> >> >> > lose >> >> >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also >> >> >> > do >> >> >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >> >> >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to >> >> >> > pay >> >> >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >> >> >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> >> >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> >> >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the >> >> >> > extra >> >> >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >> >> >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in >> >> >> > line. >> >> >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on >> >> >> > equal >> >> >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed >> >> >> > message >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >> >> >> > professor's >> >> >> > letter of recommendation. >> >> >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> >> >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> >> >> > Arielle >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> > for >> >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> >> > 0gmail >> >> >> > .com >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> > for >> >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> >> >> > mail.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> for >> >> >>nabs-l: >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william >> >> s2%40gmail >> >> >>.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for nabs-l: >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40 >> comcast.net >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >_______________________________________________ >> >> >nabs-l mailing list >> >> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for nabs-l: >> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 >> >> 3%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 5 18:29:29 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:29:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130405102938.01df46f8@comcast.net> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130405102938.01df46f8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130405110451.01c68388@comcast.net> Hi, Kirt, What I have found is that, often there not being another ways of expressing certain emotional reactions. For example, Why for the sake of sanitary expression, did you decline to say upon spilling tea the other day, "Ouch! "That was hot!" "Darnet!" Those types of vanilla verbeage are not the first things to leap off a tenderr tongue like your's, when conditions prove themselves slightly less than rosy, are they? So, I could think of no other way of characturizing a oitential reaction to my post than, okay for sanitization's sake, poopstorm. People know what is trying to be expressed so why not just say what your thinking in terms of real, no bull-ppoop language? Car :41 AM 4/5/2013, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >At 10:05 AM 4/4/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>Kar, >> First, while I think there is absolutely a time and place for >>profanity (you should have heard me when I accidentally spilled a cup >>of hot tea at a coffee shop just a few days ago), I don't think it >>suits a publicly archived mailing list. This is coming from someone >>who can curse like a completely drunk sailor, believe me, I just don't >>think this is the right venue for language like that. >> Now on to the substance of my email. As should be completely >>obvious by now, I'm not a dog user and (probably) will never be one. >>Still I think leaving Fido home (as most guide dogs are trained to >>deal with), would be a better option than bringing the pooch to the >>amusement park. If you want to go with a friend (as most people >>probably will), more power to you. Still, if you have to rely on that >>friend to get you wherever you need to go, and you aren't capable of >>handling yourself should you get separated, either by accident or by >>choice, then I think you probably need some mobility training. I hate >>making generalizations but, I think, that's a safe one to make. >> Best, >>Kirt >> >>On 4/4/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> > Good morning, Jess,, >> > >> > If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that >> > they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed >> > in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved >> > to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My >> > suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a >> > friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? >> > I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. >> > Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car >> > , >> > >> > Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: >> > >> >>Hello: >> >>Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but >> >>I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide >> >>dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think >> >>it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a >> >>waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what >> >>not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded >> >>waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you >> >>choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. >> >>Jess >> >> >> >>Check out my blog: >> >>http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >> >>http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------ >> >>On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >> >> >Good morning, >> >> > >> >> > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >> >> >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, >> >> >who cares? >> >> >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >> >> >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to >> >> be fast on >> >> >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got >> >> cheated in >> >> >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) No >> >> >> but >> >> >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> >> >> Manwaring >> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >> >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> >> >> >> >>Justin, >> >> >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; in >> >> >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as efficient >> >> >> with >> >> >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >> >> >> different >> >> >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently >> >> >> visual >> >> >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >> >> >> tactally >> >> >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as has >> >> >> been >> >> >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >> >> >> Best, >> >> >>Kirt >> >> >> >> >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> >> >> > Silverman >> >> >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >> >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Hi all, >> >> >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up >> >> >> > my >> >> >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that >> >> >> > we >> >> >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without >> >> >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior >> >> >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame >> >> >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >> >> >> > learned >> >> >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >> >> >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of >> >> >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw >> >> >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think >> >> >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and >> >> >> > skip >> >> >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or >> >> >> > crippled >> >> >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble >> >> >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get >> >> >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >> >> >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the >> >> >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow >> >> >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >> >> >> > little >> >> >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >> >> >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >> >> >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that >> >> >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >> >> >> > normalcy. >> >> >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if >> >> >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose >> >> >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do >> >> >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >> >> >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to >> >> >> > pay >> >> >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket >> >> >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> >> >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> >> >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra >> >> >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park >> >> >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. >> >> >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal >> >> >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >> >> >> > professor's >> >> >> > letter of recommendation. >> >> >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a >> >> >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> >> >> > Arielle >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> > for >> >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> >> > 0gmail >> >> >> > .com >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> > for >> >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> >> >> > mail.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >>nabs-l: >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william >> >> s2%40gmail >> >> >>.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for nabs-l: >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%4 >> 0comcast.net >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >_______________________________________________ >> >> >nabs-l mailing list >> >> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for nabs-l: >> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 >> >> 3%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 5 18:45:49 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:45:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130405100402.01c85eb0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130405113442.01c70f10@comcast.net> Hi, Kirt, A suggestion for those who, mercifully, don't hall their guide slaves to an inappropriate setting would be, for them to carry in their loaded blind person's backpack, a telescoping stick, they can whip out should they need the bathroom, after indulgence in some slightly less than stick to your ribs stadium food, which, since I know you're wondering, was acquired by means of the same stashed stick, so they're need not be unnecessary reliance on one of those sighted arms., At 10:50 AM 4/5/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Car, > I rarely get to correct people; usually, I'm the one being corrected >in one way or another. So please don't blame me for relishing this >rare opportunity...Carly, you stand corrected! ;) > I think, if you aren't able to use a cane and travel independently >without a dog, you probably have no business getting one. I say that >as a proud and comfortable cane user; still, most of my dog using >friends (especially the ones with solid mobility skills), have told me >that there are situations where they would never bring their dog, but >where they still want to travel independently. I think most people >who have said anything about this, with the exception of Peter and >Sarah have agreed that they would probably not take a dog to an >amusement park. The reasons they gave were similar to your own; from >my obviously limited experience, I agree. All I'm saying is that if >you go to an amusement park you shouldn't have to rely on your friend >to get you wherever you want to go and, if you get separated or decide >to go to the bathroom or something, you shouldn't expect your friend >to always be attached to you at the hip. Even teenage couples who >can't get their hands off of each other won't always go on every ride >together, one person might want to get food from the pizza place while >the other person gets food at the bbq joint just around the corner, or >on the other side of the food court, or whatever. All I'm saying is, >whether you're a cane user or a dog user or prefer sighted guide, I >would hope you know how to handle yourself when you need or want to do >something that most people do on their own. I'll give a couple more >examples cause I'm bored and I have some time to kill. > I was at a college basketball game with my family a couple weeks >back. I had no qualms whatsoever about using sighted guide once we >got in the arena and started walking to our seats; I could've had them >constantly yell to tell me where they were, I've done it that way >before in training...but, in that situation, I decided sighted guide >was more convenient so I did it. However, when I had to go use the >restroom I was totally fine getting out of my seat, going to take care >of my business, finding the concession stand and buying more unhealthy >crap which made me really need the restroom later and walking back to >my seat without any problem. I prefer doing that instead of asking >other people to interrupt the activity they payed for to help me do >something I'm more than capable of doing on my own. Am I making any >sense? > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/5/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Kirt, > > > > Perhaps, our views of guide dog's placement within the blind human > > animal experiment differ. You seem to believe, and do correct me if I > > am seeing things, are that, since these guide dogs have been trained > > to serve humans, it should, in all cased trump nature. I am in > > fundamental disagreement with such a premise. If you think of it, > > these poor animal's innate quality of servitude of humans is being > > exploited, to magnificent proportions, and I don't want party to > > that. This is why I can't ever see myself working with a dog. > > Happy Frieday! Car, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>Kar, > >> First, while I think there is absolutely a time and place for > >>profanity (you should have heard me when I accidentally spilled a cup > >>of hot tea at a coffee shop just a few days ago), I don't think it > >>suits a publicly archived mailing list. This is coming from someone > >>who can curse like a completely drunk sailor, believe me, I just don't > >>think this is the right venue for language like that. > >> Now on to the substance of my email. As should be completely > >>obvious by now, I'm not a dog user and (probably) will never be one. > >>Still I think leaving Fido home (as most guide dogs are trained to > >>deal with), would be a better option than bringing the pooch to the > >>amusement park. If you want to go with a friend (as most people > >>probably will), more power to you. Still, if you have to rely on that > >>friend to get you wherever you need to go, and you aren't capable of > >>handling yourself should you get separated, either by accident or by > >>choice, then I think you probably need some mobility training. I hate > >>making generalizations but, I think, that's a safe one to make. > >> Best, > >>Kirt > >> > >>On 4/4/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> > Good morning, Jess,, > >> > > >> > If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that > >> > they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed > >> > in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved > >> > to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My > >> > suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a > >> > friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? > >> > I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. > >> > Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car > >> > , > >> > > >> > Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: > >> > > >> >>Hello: > >> >>Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but > >> >>I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide > >> >>dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think > >> >>it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a > >> >>waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what > >> >>not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded > >> >>waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you > >> >>choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. > >> >>Jess > >> >> > >> >>Check out my blog: > >> >>http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva > >> >>http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>------------------------------ > >> >>On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Good morning, > >> >> > > >> >> > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and > >> >> >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I mean, > >> >> >who cares? > >> >> >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: > >> >> >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to > >> >> be fast on > >> >> >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got > >> >> cheated in > >> >> >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) > >> >> >> No > >> >> >> but > >> >> >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. > >> >> >> > >> >> >>-----Original Message----- > >> >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > >> >> >> Manwaring > >> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM > >> >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > >> >> >> > >> >> >>Justin, > >> >> >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; > >> >> >> in > >> >> >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as > >> >> >> efficient > >> >> >> with > >> >> >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely > >> >> >> different > >> >> >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently > >> >> >> visual > >> >> >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented > >> >> >> tactally > >> >> >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as > >> >> >> has > >> >> >> been > >> >> >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. > >> >> >> Best, > >> >> >>Kirt > >> >> >> > >> >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> >> >> > Arielle > >> >> >> > Silverman > >> >> >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM > >> >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Hi all, > >> >> >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing > >> >> >> > up > >> >> >> > my > >> >> >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so > >> >> >> > that > >> >> >> > we > >> >> >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without > >> >> >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our > >> >> >> > behavior > >> >> >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of > >> >> >> > shame > >> >> >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have > >> >> >> > learned > >> >> >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > >> >> >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of > >> >> >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we > >> >> >> > draw > >> >> >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I > >> >> >> > think > >> >> >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and > >> >> >> > skip > >> >> >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or > >> >> >> > crippled > >> >> >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have > >> >> >> > trouble > >> >> >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get > >> >> >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems > >> >> >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on > >> >> >> > standing > >> >> >> > in > >> >> >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my > >> >> >> > fellow > >> >> >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have > >> >> >> > little > >> >> >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of > >> >> >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an > >> >> >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from > >> >> >> > that > >> >> >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of > >> >> >> > normalcy. > >> >> >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly > >> >> >> > necessary, > >> >> >> > it > >> >> >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But > >> >> >> > if > >> >> >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to > >> >> >> > lose > >> >> >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also > >> >> >> > do > >> >> >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. > >> >> >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to > >> >> >> > pay > >> >> >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket > >> >> >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > >> >> >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > >> >> >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the > >> >> >> > extra > >> >> >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park > >> >> >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in > >> >> >> > line. > >> >> >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on > >> >> >> > equal > >> >> >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed > >> >> >> > message > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a > >> >> >> > professor's > >> >> >> > letter of recommendation. > >> >> >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a > >> >> >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > >> >> >> > Arielle > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> >> > for > >> >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> >> >> > 0gmail > >> >> >> > .com > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> >> > for > >> >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > >> >> >> > mail.com > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >> >>nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> >> for > >> >> >>nabs-l: > >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william > >> >> s2%40gmail > >> >> >>.com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >> >>nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> for nabs-l: > >> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40 > >> comcast.net > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >> >nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> for nabs-l: > >> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 > >> >> 3%40sbcglobal.net > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >>nabs-l mailing list > >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40 > comcast.net > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 18:46:36 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:46:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130405110451.01c68388@comcast.net> References: <1364903651.98623.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130404085147.01fed678@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130405102938.01df46f8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130405110451.01c68388@comcast.net> Message-ID: Carley, I know we're veering really far into the intersection of "irrelevant street" and "off-topic avenue", but I'll respond anyhow. A split-second spontaneous curse is really different from an e-mail where you have the chance to deliberate and polish what you're going to say. That's not to say I never use profanity deliberately, I find it cathartic sometimes as a matter of fact, but I know it offends lots of people and, according to social norms adopted by most people in public, is in bad taste. Of course, I will very occasionally break that social norm deliberately, but that's beside the point. :) Also, I think we both know profanity offends lots of people. I'm not above offending people when I need to and there's no way around it and neither will I shy away from sharing my honest opinion, when I feel it necessary or I'm asked directly, even when I know it will make some people uncomfortable. Still, if I can say what I want to without offending people, I'll do my level best to do that, most of the time. Anyways I'm done. I have homework to do. :) Best, Kirt On 4/5/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Kirt, > > What I have found is that, often there not being another ways of > expressing certain emotional reactions. For example, Why for the sake > of sanitary expression, did you decline to say upon spilling tea the > other day, "Ouch! "That was hot!" "Darnet!" > Those types of vanilla verbeage are not the first things to leap off > a tenderr tongue like your's, when conditions prove themselves > slightly less than rosy, are they? So, I could think of no other way > of characturizing a oitential reaction to my post than, okay for > sanitization's sake, poopstorm. People know what is trying to be > expressed so why not just say what your thinking in terms of real, no > bull-ppoop language? > Car > :41 AM 4/5/2013, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>At 10:05 AM 4/4/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>Kar, >>> First, while I think there is absolutely a time and place for >>>profanity (you should have heard me when I accidentally spilled a cup >>>of hot tea at a coffee shop just a few days ago), I don't think it >>>suits a publicly archived mailing list. This is coming from someone >>>who can curse like a completely drunk sailor, believe me, I just don't >>>think this is the right venue for language like that. >>> Now on to the substance of my email. As should be completely >>>obvious by now, I'm not a dog user and (probably) will never be one. >>>Still I think leaving Fido home (as most guide dogs are trained to >>>deal with), would be a better option than bringing the pooch to the >>>amusement park. If you want to go with a friend (as most people >>>probably will), more power to you. Still, if you have to rely on that >>>friend to get you wherever you need to go, and you aren't capable of >>>handling yourself should you get separated, either by accident or by >>>choice, then I think you probably need some mobility training. I hate >>>making generalizations but, I think, that's a safe one to make. >>> Best, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 4/4/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> > Good morning, Jess,, >>> > >>> > If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often that >>> > they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed >>> > in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved >>> > to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My >>> > suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a >>> > friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake? >>> > I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is. >>> > Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car >>> > , >>> > >>> > Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: >>> > >>> >>Hello: >>> >>Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but >>> >>I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide >>> >>dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think >>> >>it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a >>> >>waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what >>> >>not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded >>> >>waterpark, waiting for hours and hours possibly in lines if you >>> >>choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me. >>> >>Jess >>> >> >>> >>Check out my blog: >>> >>http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva >>> >>http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>------------------------------ >>> >>On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >Good morning, >>> >> > >>> >> > It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and >>> >> >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time. I >>> >> > mean, >>> >> >who cares? >>> >> >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote: >>> >> >>I take the time and a half. Think what you want. I can learn to >>> >> be fast on >>> >> >>a job. I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got >>> >> cheated in >>> >> >>the end. I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.) >>> >> >> No >>> >> >> but >>> >> >>seriously, I use any tool available to me. >>> >> >> >>> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>> >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> >> >> Manwaring >>> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM >>> >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >> >> >>> >> >>Justin, >>> >> >> In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have; >>> >> >> in >>> >> >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as >>> >> >> efficient >>> >> >> with >>> >> >>braille as my peers were with print. I know this is an entirely >>> >> >> different >>> >> >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently >>> >> >> visual >>> >> >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented >>> >> >> tactally >>> >> >>or verbally. Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as >>> >> >> has >>> >> >> been >>> >> >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job. >>> >> >> Best, >>> >> >>Kirt >>> >> >> >>> >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >> >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests? >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >>> >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> >> >> > Arielle >>> >> >> > Silverman >>> >> >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM >>> >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Hi all, >>> >> >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing >>> >> >> > up >>> >> >> > my >>> >> >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so >>> >> >> > that >>> >> >> > we >>> >> >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it >>> >> >> > without >>> >> >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our >>> >> >> > behavior >>> >> >> > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of >>> >> >> > shame >>> >> >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >>> >> >> > learned >>> >> >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >>> >> >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of >>> >> >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we >>> >> >> > draw >>> >> >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I >>> >> >> > think >>> >> >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and >>> >> >> > skip >>> >> >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or >>> >> >> > crippled >>> >> >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have >>> >> >> > trouble >>> >> >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who >>> >> >> > get >>> >> >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems >>> >> >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting >>> >> >> > the >>> >> >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on >>> >> >> > standing >>> >> >> > in >>> >> >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my >>> >> >> > fellow >>> >> >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have >>> >> >> > little >>> >> >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of >>> >> >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an >>> >> >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from >>> >> >> > that >>> >> >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of >>> >> >> > normalcy. >>> >> >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly >>> >> >> > necessary, >>> >> >> > it >>> >> >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But >>> >> >> > if >>> >> >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to >>> >> >> > lose >>> >> >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also >>> >> >> > do >>> >> >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. >>> >> >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required >>> >> >> > to >>> >> >> > pay >>> >> >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income >>> >> >> > bracket >>> >> >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >>> >> >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >>> >> >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the >>> >> >> > extra >>> >> >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement >>> >> >> > park >>> >> >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in >>> >> >> > line. >>> >> >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on >>> >> >> > equal >>> >> >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed >>> >> >> > message >>> >> >> > to >>> >> >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >>> >> >> > professor's >>> >> >> > letter of recommendation. >>> >> >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is >>> >> >> > a >>> >> >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >>> >> >> > Arielle >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> >> > info >>> >> >> > for >>> >> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> >> >> > 0gmail >>> >> >> > .com >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> >> > info >>> >> >> > for >>> >> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>> >> >> > mail.com >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >> >>nabs-l mailing list >>> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> >> for >>> >> >>nabs-l: >>> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william >>> >> s2%40gmail >>> >> >>.com >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >> >>nabs-l mailing list >>> >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for nabs-l: >>> >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%4 >>> 0comcast.net >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >>> >> >nabs-l mailing list >>> >> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for nabs-l: >>> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva200 >>> >> 3%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >>nabs-l mailing list >>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From mistydbradley at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:09:06 2013 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:09:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Considering UT Dallas in Richardson Message-ID: Hi all, In another year, I will be completing my associates degree in social work at my local community college, and I am planning to transfer to a four-year university for my bachelor degree. I hope to double-major in social work and elementary education if possible. I am looking into the University of Texas at Dallas, which is in Richardson, Texas. Has anyone on this list lived near or ever attended this university? How is the public transportation and renting of apartments off campus? I did some research online, and some say that Richardson doesn't have as much in regards to transportation except for perhaps the park and ride station for DART, so that is why I am asking, because I keep getting mixed opinions on buses and housing. I also looked at DART's site, but they don't list things by city, so it was hard to tell. Also, is it difficult to find an apartment there? I won't be living on campus because I have a child, so on-campus dorms are not really an option for me. If Richardson is not a good place for what I am looking for, is there another University of Texas campus in Dallas itself or another city in the Dallas/Fort Worth area that has more transportation? I looked into Irving, as they seem to have more transportation, but there doesn't seem to be a University of Texas campus there, and the University of Dallas in Irving is a private university, and I am looking for public universities due to lower costs. Thank you in advance for your help, Misty From hotdancer1416 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:48:12 2013 From: hotdancer1416 at gmail.com (Ashlee g) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:48:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Paula C. Durbin-Westby Autistic Advocacy Blog: No Anesthesia for Disabled Woman- Fletcher Allen Health Care (FAHC) Message-ID: <5AE4C56D-8F1F-440D-A689-496A602F5854@gmail.com> http://paulacdurbinwestbyautisticblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/no-anesthesia-for-disabled-woman.html NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE MY VPNS, EITHER 4109297357 OR 443 863 6086 IF YOU NEED TO CALL ME From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Apr 5 19:55:51 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:55:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Considering UT Dallas in Richardson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The college should be able to provide information about housing in the area. Some colleges have family housing. I know San Diego State did. Also they would know of apartments with in walking distance. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > Hi all, > In another year, I will be completing my associates degree in social work > at my local community college, and I am planning to transfer to a four-year > university for my bachelor degree. I hope to double-major in social work > and elementary education if possible. I am looking into the University of > Texas at Dallas, which is in Richardson, Texas. Has anyone on this list > lived near or ever attended this university? How is the public > transportation and renting of apartments off campus? I did some research > online, and some say that Richardson doesn't have as much in regards to > transportation except for perhaps the park and ride station for DART, so > that is why I am asking, because I keep getting mixed opinions on buses and > housing. I also looked at DART's site, but they don't list things by city, > so it was hard to tell. Also, is it difficult to find an apartment there? I > won't be living on campus because I have a child, so on-campus dorms are > not really an option for me. > If Richardson is not a good place for what I am looking for, is there > another University of Texas campus in Dallas itself or another city in the > Dallas/Fort Worth area that has more transportation? I looked into Irving, > as they seem to have more transportation, but there doesn't seem to be a > University of Texas campus there, and the University of Dallas in Irving is > a private university, and I am looking for public universities due to lower > costs. > Thank you in advance for your help, > Misty > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 20:08:02 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:08:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Considering UT Dallas in Richardson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you have the funds available, I highly suggest doing something like what I am doing. I'm going to be getting my transfer associate's, also, and transferring to Louisiana Tech University. I found information about the bus lines, the school, and of course the Louisiana Center for the Blind, but have had a lot of difficulty getting to *really* know the area. So, this summer, I'm going down there to visit. It helps that I have family that lives about 2-3 hours from Ruston, LA, but even if I didn't, I could have taken a flight into a nearby airport and taken the GReyhound bus to Ruston. None of my family is going to stay with us during our time in Ruston, however. This is because we (myself and my boyfriend, who is also blind) want to explore Ruston as if we were just moving there and had to get around to the grocery store, to the university campus, to LCB, etc. I scheduled a tour of the university campus for one of the days we'll be there, and we'll tour LCB on another day as well. The rest of the time (six days inclusively), we'll be exploring the town, talking to residents, and going around with a real estate agent. The best way to learn about a place is to be there and experience it for yourself. I'm sure we'll have frustrations, and we'll keep those frustrations in mind when we make *the* decision. But being there and seeing the town for ourselves will allow us to make our own opinion of the area, and it would be the same for you, most likely. If it's at all feasible, save up for a trip to the campus' town and see what you think of the area. People can tell you what they think until they are blue in the face, but your opinion may be completely different (for example, people told me I would hate the suburb of D.C. that I lived in years ago, but I fell in love with it and still sometimes wish I never left). Just two cents from someone in the same boat, Jewel On 4/5/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > The college should be able to provide information about housing in the > area. Some colleges have family housing. I know San Diego State did. Also > they would know of apartments with in walking distance. > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Misty Dawn Bradley > > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> In another year, I will be completing my associates degree in social work >> at my local community college, and I am planning to transfer to a >> four-year >> university for my bachelor degree. I hope to double-major in social work >> and elementary education if possible. I am looking into the University of >> Texas at Dallas, which is in Richardson, Texas. Has anyone on this list >> lived near or ever attended this university? How is the public >> transportation and renting of apartments off campus? I did some research >> online, and some say that Richardson doesn't have as much in regards to >> transportation except for perhaps the park and ride station for DART, so >> that is why I am asking, because I keep getting mixed opinions on buses >> and >> housing. I also looked at DART's site, but they don't list things by >> city, >> so it was hard to tell. Also, is it difficult to find an apartment there? >> I >> won't be living on campus because I have a child, so on-campus dorms are >> not really an option for me. >> If Richardson is not a good place for what I am looking for, is there >> another University of Texas campus in Dallas itself or another city in >> the >> Dallas/Fort Worth area that has more transportation? I looked into >> Irving, >> as they seem to have more transportation, but there doesn't seem to be a >> University of Texas campus there, and the University of Dallas in Irving >> is >> a private university, and I am looking for public universities due to >> lower >> costs. >> Thank you in advance for your help, >> Misty >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 20:10:08 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:10:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Paula C. Durbin-Westby Autistic Advocacy Blog: No Anesthesia for Disabled Woman- Fletcher Allen Health Care (FAHC) In-Reply-To: <5AE4C56D-8F1F-440D-A689-496A602F5854@gmail.com> References: <5AE4C56D-8F1F-440D-A689-496A602F5854@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please include a few lines of the article or what it's about next time. I thought it would have something to do with blind students... On 4/5/13, Ashlee g wrote: > > http://paulacdurbinwestbyautisticblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/no-anesthesia-for-disabled-woman.html > > > NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US. AUTISTICS RULE MY VPNS, EITHER 4109297357 OR > 443 863 6086 IF YOU NEED TO CALL ME > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 5 22:30:56 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 18:30:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547CF6AAC4A34DC48D60FFD3FCB9D16C@OwnerPC> Justin, Oh, its harder for dog users definitely. Housing discrimination and many foreign restaurant owners object to a dog entering the restaurant I've heard. I know it should not happen, but keep in mind foreign people don't understand it and don't speak good english. Their culture sees dogs as unclean. In some countries, they eat dogs. So, based on their cultural upbringing they object to dogs in their private business. I don't know why housing discrimination occurs but it does in complexes having a no pet policy. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:01 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Is new York easier for dog users, cane users, or does it matter? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Díaz Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:06 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Hello all, I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several occasions before but only for short periods of time. Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you! IC _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 5 22:32:37 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 18:32:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <00f701ce30e2$4fd822f0$ef8868d0$@gmail.com> References: <515a5930.a3c9440a.2d28.1900@mx.google.com><26849D9352DB461F817C56314E8285A2@OwnerPC> <00f701ce30e2$4fd822f0$ef8868d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80EC0C6754684C529E0BDF377899FF35@OwnerPC> Hi Justin, I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney world. Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available there too. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I can stand up just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I don't want to get in someone's grill like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know how you stand all those roller coasters. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie McGinnity wrote: Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mail.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 22:39:36 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 18:39:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <547CF6AAC4A34DC48D60FFD3FCB9D16C@OwnerPC> References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> <547CF6AAC4A34DC48D60FFD3FCB9D16C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <003301ce3185$49c67f80$dd537e80$@gmail.com> Wow, wouldn't have thunk it in reguards to those two issues. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 6:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Justin, Oh, its harder for dog users definitely. Housing discrimination and many foreign restaurant owners object to a dog entering the restaurant I've heard. I know it should not happen, but keep in mind foreign people don't understand it and don't speak good english. Their culture sees dogs as unclean. In some countries, they eat dogs. So, based on their cultural upbringing they object to dogs in their private business. I don't know why housing discrimination occurs but it does in complexes having a no pet policy. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:01 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Is new York easier for dog users, cane users, or does it matter? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Díaz Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:06 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Hello all, I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several occasions before but only for short periods of time. Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in particular when it comes to these things. Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you! IC _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From mistydbradley at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 00:27:37 2013 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:27:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Considering UT Dallas in Richardson References: Message-ID: <0E30EACBFFA74F68B77492DCE4430779@acerd37f251f21> Hi, I am considering visiting if I can, but I would definitely have to try to save, which may be difficult to do on a limited income. It is a good idea, though, and one which I was considering as well. Misty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jewel" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Considering UT Dallas in Richardson > If you have the funds available, I highly suggest doing something like > what I am doing. I'm going to be getting my transfer associate's, > also, and transferring to Louisiana Tech University. I found > information about the bus lines, the school, and of course the > Louisiana Center for the Blind, but have had a lot of difficulty > getting to *really* know the area. So, this summer, I'm going down > there to visit. It helps that I have family that lives about 2-3 hours > from Ruston, LA, but even if I didn't, I could have taken a flight > into a nearby airport and taken the GReyhound bus to Ruston. None of > my family is going to stay with us during our time in Ruston, however. > This is because we (myself and my boyfriend, who is also blind) want > to explore Ruston as if we were just moving there and had to get > around to the grocery store, to the university campus, to LCB, etc. I > scheduled a tour of the university campus for one of the days we'll be > there, and we'll tour LCB on another day as well. The rest of the time > (six days inclusively), we'll be exploring the town, talking to > residents, and going around with a real estate agent. > > The best way to learn about a place is to be there and experience it > for yourself. I'm sure we'll have frustrations, and we'll keep those > frustrations in mind when we make *the* decision. But being there and > seeing the town for ourselves will allow us to make our own opinion of > the area, and it would be the same for you, most likely. > > If it's at all feasible, save up for a trip to the campus' town and > see what you think of the area. People can tell you what they think > until they are blue in the face, but your opinion may be completely > different (for example, people told me I would hate the suburb of D.C. > that I lived in years ago, but I fell in love with it and still > sometimes wish I never left). > > Just two cents from someone in the same boat, > Jewel > > On 4/5/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> The college should be able to provide information about housing in the >> area. Some colleges have family housing. I know San Diego State did. Also >> they would know of apartments with in walking distance. >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Misty Dawn Bradley >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> In another year, I will be completing my associates degree in social >>> work >>> at my local community college, and I am planning to transfer to a >>> four-year >>> university for my bachelor degree. I hope to double-major in social work >>> and elementary education if possible. I am looking into the University >>> of >>> Texas at Dallas, which is in Richardson, Texas. Has anyone on this list >>> lived near or ever attended this university? How is the public >>> transportation and renting of apartments off campus? I did some research >>> online, and some say that Richardson doesn't have as much in regards to >>> transportation except for perhaps the park and ride station for DART, so >>> that is why I am asking, because I keep getting mixed opinions on buses >>> and >>> housing. I also looked at DART's site, but they don't list things by >>> city, >>> so it was hard to tell. Also, is it difficult to find an apartment >>> there? >>> I >>> won't be living on campus because I have a child, so on-campus dorms are >>> not really an option for me. >>> If Richardson is not a good place for what I am looking for, is there >>> another University of Texas campus in Dallas itself or another city in >>> the >>> Dallas/Fort Worth area that has more transportation? I looked into >>> Irving, >>> as they seem to have more transportation, but there doesn't seem to be a >>> University of Texas campus there, and the University of Dallas in Irving >>> is >>> a private university, and I am looking for public universities due to >>> lower >>> costs. >>> Thank you in advance for your help, >>> Misty >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Sat Apr 6 02:38:32 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 22:38:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I will quote one of my neighbors: Living in NYC is a blind persons paradise for navigating independently. For the most part, getting to where you needed to go is not a problem. Another thing to know, is the building numbering system. Od numbers on avenues are usually on the west side of the avenue. Evens are on the west. When traveling down side streets: Od numbers are on the north side, even are on the south. When heading east, the numbers rise, east of 5TH avenue. When heading west, the numbers rise above 5TH avenue. For most blocks, numbers 1-100 are closest to fifth avenue, both east and west. For example, if you had to go to 97 W. 57RD Street, you would end up between 5TH and 6TH. Conversely, that same address on the east side would bring you on East 57TH, between 5TH and Mattason. Hope this helps. Sent from my iPad On Apr 4, 2013, at 11:01 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > Is new York easier for dog users, cane users, or does it matter? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra > Díaz > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:06 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City > > Hello all, > I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are > over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How > about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several > occasions before but only for short periods of time. > Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center > Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if > that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how > realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and > forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public > transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in > particular when it comes to these things. > Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > Thank you! > > IC > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Sat Apr 6 02:45:33 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 22:45:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <547CF6AAC4A34DC48D60FFD3FCB9D16C@OwnerPC> References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> <547CF6AAC4A34DC48D60FFD3FCB9D16C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I have a funny story regarding a business I tried to enter. One day, I went to enter a business when I was looking for a store. It happened to be a restaurant. Once the issue began with me entering with the dog, I found out that the individuals felt and believed that I was coming in to offer the dog and/or it's meat for sale. After talking for a while, explaining that this was not the case, the individual felt horrible. I felt bad since he really believed I was attempting to intrude by selling my dog's fur, etc. We all had a laugh in the end. Another note of caution: If you are traveling outside Manhattan, taxi's if needed are far and few between. Moreover, It will be a hit/miss whether you get one with the dog. Quite often, you will get in, and the driver will ask you to not allow the dog on the seat or have you reassure them that the dog will not relieve itself within the car. This is something that can happen, so be aware of it. Most times, you should be okay. Sent from my iPad On Apr 5, 2013, at 6:31 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Justin, > Oh, its harder for dog users definitely. Housing discrimination and many foreign restaurant owners object to a dog entering the restaurant I've heard. I know it should not happen, but keep in mind foreign people don't understand it and don't speak good english. Their culture sees dogs as unclean. In some countries, they eat dogs. So, based on their cultural upbringing they object to dogs in their private business. > I don't know why housing discrimination occurs but it does in complexes having a no pet policy. > > -----Original Message----- From: justin williams > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:01 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Living in New York City > > Is new York easier for dog users, cane users, or does it matter? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra > Díaz > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:06 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City > > Hello all, > I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are > over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How > about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several > occasions before but only for short periods of time. > Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center > Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if > that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how > realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and > forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public > transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in > particular when it comes to these things. > Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > Thank you! > > IC > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Sat Apr 6 02:46:48 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 22:46:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: References: <15474D26-988F-4928-B0A1-5BE7578C253B@gmail.com> <00b601ce30e0$b64006e0$22c014a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Regarding avenues: Ods east, Evens, west, sorry for the type-o in the other message. Sent from my iPad On Apr 5, 2013, at 10:39 PM, "wmodnl wmodnl" wrote: > I will quote one of my neighbors: > Living in NYC is a blind persons paradise for navigating independently. > For the most part, getting to where you needed to go is not a problem. > Another thing to know, is the building numbering system. > Od numbers on avenues are usually on the west side of the avenue. Evens are on the west. > When traveling down side streets: > Od numbers are on the north side, even are on the south. When heading east, the numbers rise, east of 5TH avenue. When heading west, the numbers rise above 5TH avenue. For most blocks, numbers 1-100 are closest to fifth avenue, both east and west. > For example, if you had to go to 97 W. 57RD Street, you would end up between 5TH and 6TH. Conversely, that same address on the east side would bring you on East 57TH, between 5TH and Mattason. Hope this helps. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 4, 2013, at 11:01 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > >> Is new York easier for dog users, cane users, or does it matter? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra >> Díaz >> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:06 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City >> >> Hello all, >> I will be moving to New York City in August and was wondering how things are >> over there for blind people in general? Is public transportation good? How >> about big intersections etc? Of course I have been to New York in several >> occasions before but only for short periods of time. >> Ideally I would like to find an apartment near Juilliard (Lincoln Center >> Plaza) as it would be the most convenient option for me, but I don't know if >> that will be possible for several reasons. I am trying to figure out how >> realistic it would be for me to live far away from Juilliard and go back and >> forth? I have a guide dog and have no problems at all dealing with public >> transportation, but don't know much about New York and Manhattan in >> particular when it comes to these things. >> Any comments, tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. >> Thank you! >> >> IC >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 04:25:34 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 00:25:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <80EC0C6754684C529E0BDF377899FF35@OwnerPC> References: <515a5930.a3c9440a.2d28.1900@mx.google.com> <26849D9352DB461F817C56314E8285A2@OwnerPC> <00f701ce30e2$4fd822f0$ef8868d0$@gmail.com> <80EC0C6754684C529E0BDF377899FF35@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi all, Ashley, apparently it is. I'm at a conference now and a guy who was talking about the one in Minnisota, which they actually call Valley Fair, has that option apparently. (He happened to be talking about how they got a skip ahead pass for their young daughter who is a roller coaster fiend.) I hope I'm not being too scattered by commenting on several comments in the thread in one message, but here it goes. I agree, if in the event you get lost you should always have at least the skill to backtrack or do whatever you need to do to un-lose yourself, or to do something on your own. I've done quite a bit of traveling in comparison to most students in my year because of the nature of my major. (This is my second conference in six months and I traveled with one of my band ensembles a month before my first conference just in this year alone). There have been occasions on trips like these or on ones I took with various groups in high school that I did get separated from the group for whatever reason and I had to find my way back in an unfamiliar place. Now it's not such a big problem because I'm with other students who are training to work with people with disabilities and mental disorders and such so they make sure I stay with them if we're not already engaged in conversation on the way, but in high school it was trickier. Speaking of New York, the one time I really had to work to find where I was going was when my band went to New York City and we took a walking/bus tour through the city. We were going through Central Park and we stopped at Strawberry Fields. Being a huge Beatles fan I stopped to listen to a guy who was playing some of their songs and didn't pay attention to my tour guide and group leave the area. I had to be able to trace my steps back to the bus in order to make sure I would be there in time for the next pull-out. (I could have tried to find them, but there were several paths going off of that one point and I didn't want to risk getting lost, but the point is I was able to backtrack and do what I had to do). Other times, as Kirt said, I'll be at an event of some sort and need to use the restroom or want to get a drink or something. I'm all for just taking care of what you need yourself in those situations too; it makes no sense making someone walk with you to a place you're perfectly capable of getting to on your own. If for some reason you really can't get there then that is different, but if you can do it without someone else interveening that is ideal, I think. I don't necessarily think guide dogs are exploited. Often, the bond between guide dog and handler is really strong and the dogs like to work. (I've seen plenty of dogs perk up when their owners get out their harnesses to take them on a walk). they're not beaten or shocked, and most who have handlers who treat them well seem to enjoy what they do. Granted, not all handlers treat their dogs well and that is the real problem that needs correcting in those situations, and I certainly am not a doggy mind-reader, but this is just what I've observed. I also agree that list serves which are publically archived are not the best place for profanity. I'm all for saying what you mean and meaning what you say in plain English, but the bottom line is that these things can show up in Google searches and I can't speak for everyone, but I personally have been lectured several times about being careful with what I post on the web. The scope of this goes far beyond the possibility of offending someone on the NABS list or even the NFB, because if an employer is the type of person that finds that unnecessary language offensive it could cost a person a job. Kirt has a point, it's not like every day speech where something could just slip out or roll off the tongue and people won't care as much, emails and written communication are much more deliberate because you have time to think about what you're putting down in print before you post or send it to somewhere. If an employer sees something they don't like posted online in a public place, they might consider that just a hop skip and a jump away from making poor judgements in wording when writing company memoes or other things that need to be in print for their business. I'm not saying that this instance will work that way, but people have been denied or lost their jobs before over this so it's just something to watch out for. On 4/5/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Justin, > I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney world. > Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available there too. > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I can stand up > just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I don't want > to > get in someone's grill like that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? > You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know how you > stand all those roller coasters. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at > the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme > park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks > you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our > amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Julie McGinnity To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:45:07 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi everyone, > > I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in > line at > 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but > as I > got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are > physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those > who are > blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from > doing so. > I just didn't get it. > > Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take > her to > an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I > suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think > I > would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long > period > of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it > seems > Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't > see > why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure > though. > Haven't tried it. Lol > > Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their > dogs > while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's > an > option. > > On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was > growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so > that we > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it > without > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our > behavior > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of > shame > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have > learned > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. > Basically, > self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about > ourselves > by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my > blindness as > a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start > to > see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very > upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long > periods > of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing > out in > the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can > physically > handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any > real > favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because > I want > to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, > normal > people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and > much > to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every > time > we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are > gaining > from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in > terms of > normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is > truly > necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the > self-esteem > hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we > have more > to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same > reason I > also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax > deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required > to pay > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income > bracket > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the > extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement > park > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in > line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on > equal > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed > message to > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a > professor's > letter of recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is > a > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From jhud7789 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 11:59:50 2013 From: jhud7789 at gmail.com (Joseph Hudson) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 06:59:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Considering UT Dallas in Richardson In-Reply-To: <0E30EACBFFA74F68B77492DCE4430779@acerd37f251f21> References: <0E30EACBFFA74F68B77492DCE4430779@acerd37f251f21> Message-ID: Hello Misty, I had a friend that lived in Richardson message at the transportation was not that great, and also had one that lived in Fort Worth who said it was wonderful. However if you do choose to live in Richardson, you will have to go to Fort Worth or Dallas to eat anything done as Richardson only Mandy has a small grocery store I think.. Now having said that Owene I'm wise, Darce is a great service here in Texas, they're really good with the win and may have some really great when people I Melady their lives and Lorena. About two hour south of Fort Worth she's really great Laney and I think that she would do but I hope you will learn that area that you would need to know the area they'll be living in/going to school night. Now I hope I've helped you. Vice president of the Texas school for the blinds Zello channel , phone, 641-715-3900 extension 34315, or 588-7652. Email, jhud7789 at yahoo.com Sent from my iPhone On Apr 5, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > Hi, > I am considering visiting if I can, but I would definitely have to try to save, which may be difficult to do on a limited income. It is a good idea, though, and one which I was considering as well. > Misty > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jewel" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 4:08 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Considering UT Dallas in Richardson > > >> If you have the funds available, I highly suggest doing something like >> what I am doing. I'm going to be getting my transfer associate's, >> also, and transferring to Louisiana Tech University. I found >> information about the bus lines, the school, and of course the >> Louisiana Center for the Blind, but have had a lot of difficulty >> getting to *really* know the area. So, this summer, I'm going down >> there to visit. It helps that I have family that lives about 2-3 hours >> from Ruston, LA, but even if I didn't, I could have taken a flight >> into a nearby airport and taken the GReyhound bus to Ruston. None of >> my family is going to stay with us during our time in Ruston, however. >> This is because we (myself and my boyfriend, who is also blind) want >> to explore Ruston as if we were just moving there and had to get >> around to the grocery store, to the university campus, to LCB, etc. I >> scheduled a tour of the university campus for one of the days we'll be >> there, and we'll tour LCB on another day as well. The rest of the time >> (six days inclusively), we'll be exploring the town, talking to >> residents, and going around with a real estate agent. >> >> The best way to learn about a place is to be there and experience it >> for yourself. I'm sure we'll have frustrations, and we'll keep those >> frustrations in mind when we make *the* decision. But being there and >> seeing the town for ourselves will allow us to make our own opinion of >> the area, and it would be the same for you, most likely. >> >> If it's at all feasible, save up for a trip to the campus' town and >> see what you think of the area. People can tell you what they think >> until they are blue in the face, but your opinion may be completely >> different (for example, people told me I would hate the suburb of D.C. >> that I lived in years ago, but I fell in love with it and still >> sometimes wish I never left). >> >> Just two cents from someone in the same boat, >> Jewel >> >> On 4/5/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> The college should be able to provide information about housing in the >>> area. Some colleges have family housing. I know San Diego State did. Also >>> they would know of apartments with in walking distance. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Misty Dawn Bradley >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> In another year, I will be completing my associates degree in social work >>>> at my local community college, and I am planning to transfer to a >>>> four-year >>>> university for my bachelor degree. I hope to double-major in social work >>>> and elementary education if possible. I am looking into the University of >>>> Texas at Dallas, which is in Richardson, Texas. Has anyone on this list >>>> lived near or ever attended this university? How is the public >>>> transportation and renting of apartments off campus? I did some research >>>> online, and some say that Richardson doesn't have as much in regards to >>>> transportation except for perhaps the park and ride station for DART, so >>>> that is why I am asking, because I keep getting mixed opinions on buses >>>> and >>>> housing. I also looked at DART's site, but they don't list things by >>>> city, >>>> so it was hard to tell. Also, is it difficult to find an apartment there? >>>> I >>>> won't be living on campus because I have a child, so on-campus dorms are >>>> not really an option for me. >>>> If Richardson is not a good place for what I am looking for, is there >>>> another University of Texas campus in Dallas itself or another city in >>>> the >>>> Dallas/Fort Worth area that has more transportation? I looked into >>>> Irving, >>>> as they seem to have more transportation, but there doesn't seem to be a >>>> University of Texas campus there, and the University of Dallas in Irving >>>> is >>>> a private university, and I am looking for public universities due to >>>> lower >>>> costs. >>>> Thank you in advance for your help, >>>> Misty >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jhud7789%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 12:54:34 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:54:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <515a5930.a3c9440a.2d28.1900@mx.google.com> <26849D9352DB461F817C56314E8285A2@OwnerPC> <00f701ce30e2$4fd822f0$ef8868d0$@gmail.com> <80EC0C6754684C529E0BDF377899FF35@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <008c01ce31fc$b96c86a0$2c4593e0$@gmail.com> Really, we are still on profane language? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 12:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Hi all, Ashley, apparently it is. I'm at a conference now and a guy who was talking about the one in Minnisota, which they actually call Valley Fair, has that option apparently. (He happened to be talking about how they got a skip ahead pass for their young daughter who is a roller coaster fiend.) I hope I'm not being too scattered by commenting on several comments in the thread in one message, but here it goes. I agree, if in the event you get lost you should always have at least the skill to backtrack or do whatever you need to do to un-lose yourself, or to do something on your own. I've done quite a bit of traveling in comparison to most students in my year because of the nature of my major. (This is my second conference in six months and I traveled with one of my band ensembles a month before my first conference just in this year alone). There have been occasions on trips like these or on ones I took with various groups in high school that I did get separated from the group for whatever reason and I had to find my way back in an unfamiliar place. Now it's not such a big problem because I'm with other students who are training to work with people with disabilities and mental disorders and such so they make sure I stay with them if we're not already engaged in conversation on the way, but in high school it was trickier. Speaking of New York, the one time I really had to work to find where I was going was when my band went to New York City and we took a walking/bus tour through the city. We were going through Central Park and we stopped at Strawberry Fields. Being a huge Beatles fan I stopped to listen to a guy who was playing some of their songs and didn't pay attention to my tour guide and group leave the area. I had to be able to trace my steps back to the bus in order to make sure I would be there in time for the next pull-out. (I could have tried to find them, but there were several paths going off of that one point and I didn't want to risk getting lost, but the point is I was able to backtrack and do what I had to do). Other times, as Kirt said, I'll be at an event of some sort and need to use the restroom or want to get a drink or something. I'm all for just taking care of what you need yourself in those situations too; it makes no sense making someone walk with you to a place you're perfectly capable of getting to on your own. If for some reason you really can't get there then that is different, but if you can do it without someone else interveening that is ideal, I think. I don't necessarily think guide dogs are exploited. Often, the bond between guide dog and handler is really strong and the dogs like to work. (I've seen plenty of dogs perk up when their owners get out their harnesses to take them on a walk). they're not beaten or shocked, and most who have handlers who treat them well seem to enjoy what they do. Granted, not all handlers treat their dogs well and that is the real problem that needs correcting in those situations, and I certainly am not a doggy mind-reader, but this is just what I've observed. I also agree that list serves which are publically archived are not the best place for profanity. I'm all for saying what you mean and meaning what you say in plain English, but the bottom line is that these things can show up in Google searches and I can't speak for everyone, but I personally have been lectured several times about being careful with what I post on the web. The scope of this goes far beyond the possibility of offending someone on the NABS list or even the NFB, because if an employer is the type of person that finds that unnecessary language offensive it could cost a person a job. Kirt has a point, it's not like every day speech where something could just slip out or roll off the tongue and people won't care as much, emails and written communication are much more deliberate because you have time to think about what you're putting down in print before you post or send it to somewhere. If an employer sees something they don't like posted online in a public place, they might consider that just a hop skip and a jump away from making poor judgements in wording when writing company memoes or other things that need to be in print for their business. I'm not saying that this instance will work that way, but people have been denied or lost their jobs before over this so it's just something to watch out for. On 4/5/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Justin, > I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney world. > Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available there too. > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I can stand up > just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I don't want > to > get in someone's grill like that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? > You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know how you > stand all those roller coasters. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at > the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme > park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks > you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our > amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Julie McGinnity To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:45:07 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi everyone, > > I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in > line at > 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but > as I > got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are > physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those > who are > blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from > doing so. > I just didn't get it. > > Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take > her to > an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, I > suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't think > I > would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long > period > of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it > seems > Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't > see > why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure > though. > Haven't tried it. Lol > > Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their > dogs > while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but it's > an > option. > > On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was > growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so > that we > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it > without > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our > behavior > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of > shame > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have > learned > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. > Basically, > self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about > ourselves > by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my > blindness as > a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start > to > see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very > upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long > periods > of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing > out in > the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can > physically > handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any > real > favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because > I want > to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, > normal > people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and > much > to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every > time > we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are > gaining > from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in > terms of > normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is > truly > necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the > self-esteem > hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we > have more > to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same > reason I > also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax > deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required > to pay > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income > bracket > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the > extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement > park > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in > line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on > equal > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed > message to > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a > professor's > letter of recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is > a > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 18:21:02 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 11:21:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines Message-ID: <516067c3.0a78420a.417b.4a41@mx.google.com> I love profanity it Rocks! ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" wrote: Hi Justin, I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney world. Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available there too. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I can stand up just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I don't want to get in someone's grill like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know how you stand all those roller coasters. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie McGinnity wrote: Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mail.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104%40gmai l.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From coastergirl92 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 18:21:06 2013 From: coastergirl92 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 11:21:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines Message-ID: <516067c7.0a78420a.417b.4a49@mx.google.com> Our awesome Magic Mountain has a skip the line pass because I'm a coaster fiend too, and my dog won't wait in line for 4 hours at a time. Magic Mountain rocks, they give you a pass automatically if you are blind or especially if you are on the autism Spectrum which I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" wrote: Hi Justin, I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney world. Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available there too. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I can stand up just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I don't want to get in someone's grill like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know how you stand all those roller coasters. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line at the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie McGinnity wrote: Hi all, Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing up my parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so that we could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our behavior but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of shame and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have learned about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is truly necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction. I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to pay taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the extra responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in line. It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on equal treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed message to request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a professor's letter of recommendation. Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a legitimate reason to not wait in lines. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mail.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104%40gmai l.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 %40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 02:42:17 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 22:42:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <516067c7.0a78420a.417b.4a49@mx.google.com> References: <516067c7.0a78420a.417b.4a49@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Justin, Excuse me if I seemed like I was beating a dead horse, but I was only trying to second Kirt's good point since it seemed to me as if it was not being taken seriously. People are certainly free to do what they want, but in this case that was just advice I think any conscientious person would take instead of blowing off like it was no big deal. Try googling the NABS discussions on google. I can garantee you that they're readily available to an potential employer or anyone else who might look for them. Now try just searching your name and nothing else. I did this and found nabs postings of mine just on the second page of results, and considering a bunch of the stuff on the first page was for other people who share my name it was pretty high up on the stuff that is linked directly to me. In actuality, the profanity is secondary to the real point of being mindful of what you put out on the internet, so it's not a simple slip of the tongue Kirt and I were really advising against, but something that should be taken more seriously. So to answer your question no, we were not really still on profanity, the topic really at hand was more along the lines of professionalism and thinking with the future in mind rather than doing something that could have consequences just because it might sound cool or whatever to some people in the present. In general, if the idaea of a potential employer not liking something you wrote doesn't do the job, then hopefully this other rule of thumb will work. Don't put anything out there on the internet that you wouldn't send in an email or say to your grandmother, a professor, or some other figure of your choice you wouldn't want to look bad in front of in reality. On 4/6/13, Sarah wrote: > Our awesome Magic Mountain has a skip the line pass because I'm a > coaster fiend too, and my dog won't wait in line for 4 hours at a > time. Magic Mountain rocks, they give you a pass automatically > if you are blind or especially if you are on the autism Spectrum > which I am. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:54:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Really, we are still on profane language? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 12:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi all, > > Ashley, apparently it is. I'm at a conference now and a guy who > was > talking about the one in Minnisota, which they actually call > Valley > Fair, has that option apparently. (He happened to be talking > about > how they got a skip ahead pass for their young daughter who is a > roller coaster fiend.) > > I hope I'm not being too scattered by commenting on several > comments > in the thread in one message, but here it goes. > > I agree, if in the event you get lost you should always have at > least > the skill to backtrack or do whatever you need to do to un-lose > yourself, or to do something on your own. I've done quite a bit > of > traveling in comparison to most students in my year because of > the > nature of my major. (This is my second conference in six months > and I > traveled with one of my band ensembles a month before my first > conference just in this year alone). There have been occasions > on > trips like these or on ones I took with various groups in high > school > that I did get separated from the group for whatever reason and I > had > to find my way back in an unfamiliar place. Now it's not such a > big > problem because I'm with other students who are training to work > with > people with disabilities and mental disorders and such so they > make > sure I stay with them if we're not already engaged in > conversation on > the way, but in high school it was trickier. Speaking of New > York, > the one time I really had to work to find where I was going was > when > my band went to New York City and we took a walking/bus tour > through > the city. We were going through Central Park and we stopped at > Strawberry Fields. Being a huge Beatles fan I stopped to listen > to a > guy who was playing some of their songs and didn't pay attention > to my > tour guide and group leave the area. I had to be able to trace > my > steps back to the bus in order to make sure I would be there in > time > for the next pull-out. (I could have tried to find them, but > there > were several paths going off of that one point and I didn't want > to > risk getting lost, but the point is I was able to backtrack and > do > what I had to do). Other times, as Kirt said, I'll be at an > event of > some sort and need to use the restroom or want to get a drink or > something. I'm all for just taking care of what you need > yourself in > those situations too; it makes no sense making someone walk with > you > to a place you're perfectly capable of getting to on your own. > If for > some reason you really can't get there then that is different, > but if > you can do it without someone else interveening that is ideal, I > think. > > I don't necessarily think guide dogs are exploited. Often, the > bond > between guide dog and handler is really strong and the dogs like > to > work. (I've seen plenty of dogs perk up when their owners get > out > their harnesses to take them on a walk). they're not beaten or > shocked, and most who have handlers who treat them well seem to > enjoy > what they do. Granted, not all handlers treat their dogs well > and > that is the real problem that needs correcting in those > situations, > and I certainly am not a doggy mind-reader, but this is just what > I've > observed. > > I also agree that list serves which are publically archived are > not > the best place for profanity. I'm all for saying what you mean > and > meaning what you say in plain English, but the bottom line is > that > these things can show up in Google searches and I can't speak for > everyone, but I personally have been lectured several times about > being careful with what I post on the web. The scope of this > goes far > beyond the possibility of offending someone on the NABS list or > even > the NFB, because if an employer is the type of person that finds > that > unnecessary language offensive it could cost a person a job. > Kirt has > a point, it's not like every day speech where something could > just > slip out or roll off the tongue and people won't care as much, > emails > and written communication are much more deliberate because you > have > time to think about what you're putting down in print before you > post > or send it to somewhere. If an employer sees something they > don't > like posted online in a public place, they might consider that > just a > hop skip and a jump away from making poor judgements in wording > when > writing company memoes or other things that need to be in print > for > their business. I'm not saying that this instance will work that > way, > but people have been denied or lost their jobs before over this > so > it's just something to watch out for. > > > > On 4/5/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Justin, > I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney > world. > Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available > there too. > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I > can stand > up > just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I > don't want > to > get in someone's grill like that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? > You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know > how you > stand all those roller coasters. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line > at > the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme > park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks > you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our > amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Julie McGinnity To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:45:07 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi everyone, > > I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in > line at > 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but > as I > got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are > physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those > who are > blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from > doing so. > I just didn't get it. > > Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take > her to > an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, > I > suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't > think > I > would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long > period > of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it > seems > Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't > see > why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure > though. > Haven't tried it. Lol > > Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their > dogs > while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but > it's > an > option. > > On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was > growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so > that we > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it > without > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our > behavior > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of > shame > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have > learned > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. > Basically, > self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about > ourselves > by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my > blindness as > a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start > to > see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very > upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long > periods > of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing > out in > the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can > physically > handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any > real > favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because > I want > to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, > normal > people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and > much > to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every > time > we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are > gaining > from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in > terms of > normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is > truly > necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the > self-esteem > hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we > have more > to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same > reason I > also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax > deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required > to pay > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income > bracket > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the > extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement > park > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in > line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on > equal > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed > message to > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a > professor's > letter of recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is > a > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104%40gmai > l.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 03:25:42 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 23:25:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: References: <516067c7.0a78420a.417b.4a49@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <005801ce3276$6b935330$42b9f990$@gmail.com> Well then. just let me have it why don't you. Score one for you. Grin. Actually, lol. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines Justin, Excuse me if I seemed like I was beating a dead horse, but I was only trying to second Kirt's good point since it seemed to me as if it was not being taken seriously. People are certainly free to do what they want, but in this case that was just advice I think any conscientious person would take instead of blowing off like it was no big deal. Try googling the NABS discussions on google. I can garantee you that they're readily available to an potential employer or anyone else who might look for them. Now try just searching your name and nothing else. I did this and found nabs postings of mine just on the second page of results, and considering a bunch of the stuff on the first page was for other people who share my name it was pretty high up on the stuff that is linked directly to me. In actuality, the profanity is secondary to the real point of being mindful of what you put out on the internet, so it's not a simple slip of the tongue Kirt and I were really advising against, but something that should be taken more seriously. So to answer your question no, we were not really still on profanity, the topic really at hand was more along the lines of professionalism and thinking with the future in mind rather than doing something that could have consequences just because it might sound cool or whatever to some people in the present. In general, if the idaea of a potential employer not liking something you wrote doesn't do the job, then hopefully this other rule of thumb will work. Don't put anything out there on the internet that you wouldn't send in an email or say to your grandmother, a professor, or some other figure of your choice you wouldn't want to look bad in front of in reality. On 4/6/13, Sarah wrote: > Our awesome Magic Mountain has a skip the line pass because I'm a > coaster fiend too, and my dog won't wait in line for 4 hours at a > time. Magic Mountain rocks, they give you a pass automatically > if you are blind or especially if you are on the autism Spectrum > which I am. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:54:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Really, we are still on profane language? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 12:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi all, > > Ashley, apparently it is. I'm at a conference now and a guy who > was > talking about the one in Minnisota, which they actually call > Valley > Fair, has that option apparently. (He happened to be talking > about > how they got a skip ahead pass for their young daughter who is a > roller coaster fiend.) > > I hope I'm not being too scattered by commenting on several > comments > in the thread in one message, but here it goes. > > I agree, if in the event you get lost you should always have at > least > the skill to backtrack or do whatever you need to do to un-lose > yourself, or to do something on your own. I've done quite a bit > of > traveling in comparison to most students in my year because of > the > nature of my major. (This is my second conference in six months > and I > traveled with one of my band ensembles a month before my first > conference just in this year alone). There have been occasions > on > trips like these or on ones I took with various groups in high > school > that I did get separated from the group for whatever reason and I > had > to find my way back in an unfamiliar place. Now it's not such a > big > problem because I'm with other students who are training to work > with > people with disabilities and mental disorders and such so they > make > sure I stay with them if we're not already engaged in > conversation on > the way, but in high school it was trickier. Speaking of New > York, > the one time I really had to work to find where I was going was > when > my band went to New York City and we took a walking/bus tour > through > the city. We were going through Central Park and we stopped at > Strawberry Fields. Being a huge Beatles fan I stopped to listen > to a > guy who was playing some of their songs and didn't pay attention > to my > tour guide and group leave the area. I had to be able to trace > my > steps back to the bus in order to make sure I would be there in > time > for the next pull-out. (I could have tried to find them, but > there > were several paths going off of that one point and I didn't want > to > risk getting lost, but the point is I was able to backtrack and > do > what I had to do). Other times, as Kirt said, I'll be at an > event of > some sort and need to use the restroom or want to get a drink or > something. I'm all for just taking care of what you need > yourself in > those situations too; it makes no sense making someone walk with > you > to a place you're perfectly capable of getting to on your own. > If for > some reason you really can't get there then that is different, > but if > you can do it without someone else interveening that is ideal, I > think. > > I don't necessarily think guide dogs are exploited. Often, the > bond > between guide dog and handler is really strong and the dogs like > to > work. (I've seen plenty of dogs perk up when their owners get > out > their harnesses to take them on a walk). they're not beaten or > shocked, and most who have handlers who treat them well seem to > enjoy > what they do. Granted, not all handlers treat their dogs well > and > that is the real problem that needs correcting in those > situations, > and I certainly am not a doggy mind-reader, but this is just what > I've > observed. > > I also agree that list serves which are publically archived are > not > the best place for profanity. I'm all for saying what you mean > and > meaning what you say in plain English, but the bottom line is > that > these things can show up in Google searches and I can't speak for > everyone, but I personally have been lectured several times about > being careful with what I post on the web. The scope of this > goes far > beyond the possibility of offending someone on the NABS list or > even > the NFB, because if an employer is the type of person that finds > that > unnecessary language offensive it could cost a person a job. > Kirt has > a point, it's not like every day speech where something could > just > slip out or roll off the tongue and people won't care as much, > emails > and written communication are much more deliberate because you > have > time to think about what you're putting down in print before you > post > or send it to somewhere. If an employer sees something they > don't > like posted online in a public place, they might consider that > just a > hop skip and a jump away from making poor judgements in wording > when > writing company memoes or other things that need to be in print > for > their business. I'm not saying that this instance will work that > way, > but people have been denied or lost their jobs before over this > so > it's just something to watch out for. > > > > On 4/5/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Justin, > I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney > world. > Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available > there too. > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I > can stand > up > just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I > don't want > to > get in someone's grill like that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? > You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know > how you > stand all those roller coasters. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line > at > the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme > park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks > you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our > amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Julie McGinnity To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:45:07 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Hi everyone, > > I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in > line at > 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but > as I > got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are > physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those > who are > blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from > doing so. > I just didn't get it. > > Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take > her to > an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, > I > suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't > think > I > would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long > period > of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it > seems > Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't > see > why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure > though. > Haven't tried it. Lol > > Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their > dogs > while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but > it's > an > option. > > On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was > growing up my > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so > that we > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it > without > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our > behavior > but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of > shame > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have > learned > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I > understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. > Basically, > self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about > ourselves > by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my > blindness as > a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start > to > see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very > upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long > periods > of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing > out in > the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can > physically > handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any > real > favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because > I want > to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, > normal > people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and > much > to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every > time > we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are > gaining > from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in > terms of > normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is > truly > necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the > self-esteem > hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we > have more > to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same > reason I > also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax > deduction. > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required > to pay > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income > bracket > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the > extra > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement > park > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in > line. > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on > equal > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed > message to > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a > professor's > letter of recommendation. > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is > a > legitimate reason to not wait in lines. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104%40gmai > l.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 06:18:05 2013 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 23:18:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004a01ce3357$ab3d84b0$01b88e10$@gmail.com> Please see below! -----Original Message----- From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lauren Merryfield Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:58 PM To: NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List Cc: NFB of California List Subject: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate Hi, I am not sure what this student needs to graduate, but perhaps people can sign this petition and put helpful comments in the comments field. I referred him to our national office. Thanks Lauren advice from my cats: "meow when you feel like it." The most basic of all human needs is the need to understand and be understood. The best way to understand people is to listen to them. -- Ralph Nichols Visit us at catliness.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Emily V., Care2 Action Alerts To: Lauren Merryfield Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:04 AM Subject: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on Facebook | Take Action action alert! Vincent Martin is blind and pursuing a master's degree at Georgia Tech even without the university's full support. His friend wants to make sure he gets all the help he needs to succeed. Help Blind Student Get Access to Everything He Needs to Learn please share it helps! Dear Lauren, Connie Davis met Vincent Martin at the Center for the Visually Impaired in Atlanta. He was her computer instructor, one of many roles he takes on, from volunteer computer teacher for senior citizens to first fully-blind master's candidate at Georgia Tech. But to Connie, Vincent is just a kind, brilliant friend. That's why Connie was so dismayed that, despite his hard work and expertise, Georgia Tech wasn't giving Vincent the support he needs to get his graduate degree. Vincent is studying Human Computer Interaction and is often asked to guest lecture on the subject to other professors. His accomplishments are even more impressive given his disability. Many requirements on campus are web-based and not accessible to Vincent, even with his special assistive software. While he gets electronic textbooks, they don't give him access to equations essential for his study. There are things Georgia Tech can -- and, in fact, is legally obligated -- to do to help Vincent succeed. Blind graduate students in technical fields often have up to 20 hours of sighted assistance each week. Vincent has made do with just five. They can also provide tactile descriptions of diagrams in class. "He is a role model to all Blind and Visually Impaired people," Connie told us. We'd go one step further: Vincent is a inspiration to everyone. Join Connie's fight and ask Georgia Tech administrators to make sure Vincent gets everything he needs to earn his master's degree! Thank you for taking action, Emily V. Care2 and ThePetitionSite Team check your Butterfly Credits! redeem credits | about butterfly rewards Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on Facebook | Take Action ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- To stop receiving this newsletter, visit: http://www.care2.com/newsletters/unsub/84/0/11062134/9f7e9dfc or send a blank email message to: ng-u-84-11062134-8643213-13217826-ed27cfdb at australia.care2.com Care2.com, Inc. 275 Shoreline Drive, Suite 300 Redwood City, CA 94065 http://www.care2.com _______________________________________________ nfbwatlk mailing list nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbwatlk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%4 0gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 06:22:46 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 02:22:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Lines In-Reply-To: <005801ce3276$6b935330$42b9f990$@gmail.com> References: <516067c7.0a78420a.417b.4a49@mx.google.com> <005801ce3276$6b935330$42b9f990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. Judging by the tone of that last email, (which is funny to me as I remember you calling someone else out on the tone they used a week or so ago), what I consider to have been an explanation of what I considered to be practical advice with big implications that were being carelessly overlooked was not taken that way for whatever reason. I don't get why all of a sudden we can't address emails to one person in particular to further explain a point without them getting offended, as this happens all over the list all the time, but such is the nature of electronic messages. You can certainly choose to read into it what you will or won't. Anyway, it's late. Night all. On 4/5/13, justin williams wrote: > Well then. just let me have it why don't you. Score one for you. Grin. > Actually, lol. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines > > Justin, > > Excuse me if I seemed like I was beating a dead horse, but I was only > trying to second Kirt's good point since it seemed to me as if it was > not being taken seriously. People are certainly free to do what they > want, but in this case that was just advice I think any conscientious > person would take instead of blowing off like it was no big deal. Try > googling the NABS discussions on google. I can garantee you that > they're readily available to an potential employer or anyone else who > might look for them. Now try just searching your name and nothing > else. I did this and found nabs postings of mine just on the second > page of results, and considering a bunch of the stuff on the first > page was for other people who share my name it was pretty high up on > the stuff that is linked directly to me. In actuality, the profanity > is secondary to the real point of being mindful of what you put out on > the internet, so it's not a simple slip of the tongue Kirt and I were > really advising against, but something that should be taken more > seriously. So to answer your question no, we were not really still on > profanity, the topic really at hand was more along the lines of > professionalism and thinking with the future in mind rather than doing > something that could have consequences just because it might sound > cool or whatever to some people in the present. > > In general, if the idaea of a potential employer not liking something > you wrote doesn't do the job, then hopefully this other rule of thumb > will work. Don't put anything out there on the internet that you > wouldn't send in an email or say to your grandmother, a professor, or > some other figure of your choice you wouldn't want to look bad in > front of in reality. > > On 4/6/13, Sarah wrote: >> Our awesome Magic Mountain has a skip the line pass because I'm a >> coaster fiend too, and my dog won't wait in line for 4 hours at a >> time. Magic Mountain rocks, they give you a pass automatically >> if you are blind or especially if you are on the autism Spectrum >> which I am. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:54:34 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Really, we are still on profane language? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 12:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Hi all, >> >> Ashley, apparently it is. I'm at a conference now and a guy who >> was >> talking about the one in Minnisota, which they actually call >> Valley >> Fair, has that option apparently. (He happened to be talking >> about >> how they got a skip ahead pass for their young daughter who is a >> roller coaster fiend.) >> >> I hope I'm not being too scattered by commenting on several >> comments >> in the thread in one message, but here it goes. >> >> I agree, if in the event you get lost you should always have at >> least >> the skill to backtrack or do whatever you need to do to un-lose >> yourself, or to do something on your own. I've done quite a bit >> of >> traveling in comparison to most students in my year because of >> the >> nature of my major. (This is my second conference in six months >> and I >> traveled with one of my band ensembles a month before my first >> conference just in this year alone). There have been occasions >> on >> trips like these or on ones I took with various groups in high >> school >> that I did get separated from the group for whatever reason and I >> had >> to find my way back in an unfamiliar place. Now it's not such a >> big >> problem because I'm with other students who are training to work >> with >> people with disabilities and mental disorders and such so they >> make >> sure I stay with them if we're not already engaged in >> conversation on >> the way, but in high school it was trickier. Speaking of New >> York, >> the one time I really had to work to find where I was going was >> when >> my band went to New York City and we took a walking/bus tour >> through >> the city. We were going through Central Park and we stopped at >> Strawberry Fields. Being a huge Beatles fan I stopped to listen >> to a >> guy who was playing some of their songs and didn't pay attention >> to my >> tour guide and group leave the area. I had to be able to trace >> my >> steps back to the bus in order to make sure I would be there in >> time >> for the next pull-out. (I could have tried to find them, but >> there >> were several paths going off of that one point and I didn't want >> to >> risk getting lost, but the point is I was able to backtrack and >> do >> what I had to do). Other times, as Kirt said, I'll be at an >> event of >> some sort and need to use the restroom or want to get a drink or >> something. I'm all for just taking care of what you need >> yourself in >> those situations too; it makes no sense making someone walk with >> you >> to a place you're perfectly capable of getting to on your own. >> If for >> some reason you really can't get there then that is different, >> but if >> you can do it without someone else interveening that is ideal, I >> think. >> >> I don't necessarily think guide dogs are exploited. Often, the >> bond >> between guide dog and handler is really strong and the dogs like >> to >> work. (I've seen plenty of dogs perk up when their owners get >> out >> their harnesses to take them on a walk). they're not beaten or >> shocked, and most who have handlers who treat them well seem to >> enjoy >> what they do. Granted, not all handlers treat their dogs well >> and >> that is the real problem that needs correcting in those >> situations, >> and I certainly am not a doggy mind-reader, but this is just what >> I've >> observed. >> >> I also agree that list serves which are publically archived are >> not >> the best place for profanity. I'm all for saying what you mean >> and >> meaning what you say in plain English, but the bottom line is >> that >> these things can show up in Google searches and I can't speak for >> everyone, but I personally have been lectured several times about >> being careful with what I post on the web. The scope of this >> goes far >> beyond the possibility of offending someone on the NABS list or >> even >> the NFB, because if an employer is the type of person that finds >> that >> unnecessary language offensive it could cost a person a job. >> Kirt has >> a point, it's not like every day speech where something could >> just >> slip out or roll off the tongue and people won't care as much, >> emails >> and written communication are much more deliberate because you >> have >> time to think about what you're putting down in print before you >> post >> or send it to somewhere. If an employer sees something they >> don't >> like posted online in a public place, they might consider that >> just a >> hop skip and a jump away from making poor judgements in wording >> when >> writing company memoes or other things that need to be in print >> for >> their business. I'm not saying that this instance will work that >> way, >> but people have been denied or lost their jobs before over this >> so >> it's just something to watch out for. >> >> >> >> On 4/5/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi Justin, >> I didn't know you could cut in line either except for disney >> world. >> Apparently sara does it at six flags, so it must be available >> there too. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: justin williams >> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:12 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Wow, I didn't no you can cut in line like that. I wouldn't. I >> can stand >> up >> just fine. I'm not telling anyone else that they shouldn't. I >> don't want >> to >> get in someone's grill like that. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 9:40 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> what amusement parks do you frequent that let you do this, Sara? >> You get to ride lots more than the average person. I don't know >> how you >> stand all those roller coasters. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sarah >> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:05 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> My dog is very impati-that about waiting he can't wait in line >> at >> the bank very good without geting restless let alone a theme >> park. Besides, when you don't cart the lines at theme parks >> you're lucky if you get to ride like 4 rides because our >> amusement parks are only open like 8 hours at the most. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Julie McGinnity > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 22:45:07 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Lines >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I remember getting those special bracelets that let me cut in >> line at >> 6 Flags here in St. Louis. I didn't know better as a kid, but >> as I >> got older, I've wondered about the logic of such things. we are >> physically capable of standing in line. Well, there are those >> who are >> blind and have other disabilities that may prevent them from >> doing so. >> I just didn't get it. >> >> Now I use a guide dog. I don't think I've ever chosen to take >> her to >> an amusement park. If I had to bring her to an amusement park, >> I >> suppose it would be better for her to cut in line. I don't >> think >> I >> would ever bring her outside in the heat like that for a long >> period >> of time. If I went to an amusement park all year round, like it >> seems >> Sarah does, it would be a different story though. Then I don't >> see >> why my dog would have a problem waiting in line. I'm not sure >> though. >> Haven't tried it. Lol >> >> Also the Disney parks have a place where people can keep their >> dogs >> while they're riding rides. I don't know much about it, but >> it's >> an >> option. >> >> On 4/1/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was >> growing up my >> parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so >> that we >> could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it >> without >> giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our >> behavior >> but in the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of >> shame >> and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have >> learned >> about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I >> understand why it bothers me (and many of us) so much. >> Basically, >> self-perception theory posits that we draw conclusions about >> ourselves >> by observing our own behavior. I think whenever I used my >> blindness as >> a reason to get a guest pass and skip the line, it made me start >> to >> see myself as a handicapped or crippled person, which was very >> upsetting. For some people who have trouble standing for long >> periods >> of time, or who have guide dogs who get uncomfortable standing >> out in >> the sun, cutting in line seems legitimate. But if we can >> physically >> handle the lines, accepting the special passes doesn't do us any >> real >> favors. I insist on standing in line with everyone else because >> I want >> to see myself (and my fellow blind friends) as strong, healthy, >> normal >> people. I feel I have little to gain by skipping the lines, and >> much >> to lose in terms of self-esteem and self-respect. I think every >> time >> we take an accommodation, we need to think about what we are >> gaining >> from that accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in >> terms of >> normalcy. If an accommodation like a piece of technology is >> truly >> necessary, it will give enough benefit that it's worth the >> self-esteem >> hit. But if an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we >> have more >> to lose than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same >> reason I >> also do not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax >> deduction. >> I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required >> to pay >> taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income >> bracket >> makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world. >> There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same >> rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the >> extra >> responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement >> park >> rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in >> line. >> It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on >> equal >> treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed >> message to >> request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a >> professor's >> letter of recommendation. >> Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is >> a >> legitimate reason to not wait in lines. >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> ms2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0earthlink. >> net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >> ms2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92 >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From clb5590 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 18:42:36 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:42:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Get to That Training Center! Message-ID: How to Get to that Training Center! We know people like you. You know that you want to get comprehensive adjustment to blindness training, and you would really like to go to an NFB training center. But you have also heard the horror stories about how difficult it is to convince your VR counselor that attending an NFB training center will give you the proper training and tools to reach your true potential. Join us for an informative call with special guest Al Spooner, Assistant Director of Outreach and Marketing at BLIND, Inc., one of the NFB’s training centers, to learn how to work with a difficult agency. You’ll get a start to finish timeline of what documents you’ll need to fill out, how to word things, and how to problem- solve when your counselor does not respond or sidesteps your requests. You’ll also hear from Cindy Bennett, NABS Secretary and Membership Committee member on her experiences problem-solving with her state agency to get to, and to stay in training for the amount of time she needed. When: Sunday, April 7, 7:00 P.M. Eastern Where: Call 605-475-6700 and enter the access code 7869673 Who: Anyone who could benefit! We look forward to sharing our insight on how to make your own, informed choice and get to that training center! We’ll be available to answer questions after the presentation. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From nijat1989 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 20:02:05 2013 From: nijat1989 at gmail.com (Nijat Worley) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 16:02:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Essay Contest For An Educational Trip to Azerbaijan Message-ID: Greetings all, Here is information about a great educational opportunity for students that would allow them to visit the Republic of Azerbaijan and to learn about that country. Please share this information with all your students and with other list surfs. The Kharabakh Foundation is currently working with the Embassy of Azerbaijan on an essay contest that is open to high school and college students. Students will be asked to write an essay about Azerbaijan (potential topics range from art and culture to the country's economic growth and geopolitical position) and 10 winners will be selected to travel to Azerbaijan free of charge. The trip will be this summer (last week of June or first week of July) and essays will be due first week of May. Thank you very much! Cordially, Nijat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Application_Form_for_Essay_Competition_(1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 94673 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Essay_Competition_What_do_I_know_about_Azerbaijan_05.04.2013.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 744853 bytes Desc: not available URL: From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 20:04:00 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:04:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate In-Reply-To: <004a01ce3357$ab3d84b0$01b88e10$@gmail.com> References: <004a01ce3357$ab3d84b0$01b88e10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I also wanted to see some more details about the kind of support Vincent was needing that he wasn't getting from Georgia Tech. It's not clear from the petition, for example, whether he only used five hours per week of reader support because he only needed that much or because he wants more but can't get the university or voc rehab to fund it. I'd want to know more before signing this petition. Also, some of the language irritated me, like saying his accomplishments are more impressive because of his disability and that he is an inspiration. I think blind students' achievements should be compared to achievements made by other students in the same field, not seen as greater just because a student is blind. Arielle On 4/7/13, Humberto Avila wrote: > Please see below! > > -----Original Message----- > From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lauren > Merryfield > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:58 PM > To: NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List > Cc: NFB of California List > Subject: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He > Needs to Graduate > > Hi, > I am not sure what this student needs to graduate, but perhaps people can > sign this petition and put helpful comments in the comments field. I > referred him to our national office. > Thanks > Lauren > > advice from my cats: "meow when you feel like it." > The most basic of all human needs is the need to understand and be > understood. The best way to understand people is to listen to them. > -- Ralph Nichols > Visit us at catliness.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Emily V., Care2 Action Alerts > To: Lauren Merryfield > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:04 AM > Subject: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate > > > Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on Facebook > | Take Action > > action alert! > Vincent Martin is blind and pursuing a master's degree at Georgia > Tech > even without the university's full support. His friend wants to make sure > he > gets all the help he needs to succeed. > Help Blind Student Get Access to Everything He Needs to Learn > > > please share > it helps! > > Dear Lauren, > > Connie Davis met Vincent Martin at the Center for the Visually > Impaired in Atlanta. He was her computer instructor, one of many roles he > takes on, from volunteer computer teacher for senior citizens to first > fully-blind master's candidate at Georgia Tech. But to Connie, Vincent is > just a kind, brilliant friend. > > That's why Connie was so dismayed that, despite his hard work and > expertise, Georgia Tech wasn't giving Vincent the support he needs to get > his graduate degree. > > Vincent is studying Human Computer Interaction and is often asked to > guest lecture on the subject to other professors. His accomplishments are > even more impressive given his disability. Many requirements on campus are > web-based and not accessible to Vincent, even with his special assistive > software. While he gets electronic textbooks, they don't give him access to > equations essential for his study. > > There are things Georgia Tech can -- and, in fact, is legally > obligated -- to do to help Vincent succeed. Blind graduate students in > technical fields often have up to 20 hours of sighted assistance each week. > Vincent has made do with just five. They can also provide tactile > descriptions of diagrams in class. > > "He is a role model to all Blind and Visually Impaired people," > Connie > told us. We'd go one step further: Vincent is a inspiration to everyone. > > Join Connie's fight and ask Georgia Tech administrators to make sure > Vincent gets everything he needs to earn his master's degree! > > > Thank you for taking action, > > Emily V. > Care2 and ThePetitionSite Team > > > > check your > Butterfly Credits! redeem credits | about butterfly rewards > Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on Facebook > | Take Action > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > To stop receiving this newsletter, visit: > http://www.care2.com/newsletters/unsub/84/0/11062134/9f7e9dfc > > or send a blank email message to: > ng-u-84-11062134-8643213-13217826-ed27cfdb at australia.care2.com > > Care2.com, Inc. > 275 Shoreline Drive, Suite 300 > Redwood City, CA 94065 > http://www.care2.com > > _______________________________________________ > nfbwatlk mailing list > nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nfbwatlk: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From clb5590 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 01:20:13 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 18:20:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting to That Training Center Follow-up Message-ID: Hi everyone! We had a great call this evening about Getting to That Training Center! Special guest Al Spooner, the Assistant Director of Outreach and Marketing at BLIND, Inc., one of the NFB's 3 training centers, gave a great presentation! We had 11 people in attendance, and you guys asked some great questions. I promise to supply notes on the call to the list. I just want Al to verify them first. But they will be out within a couple of days! Thanks again to everyone who promoted and attended this call, and please don't hesitate to send your questions about getting to the training center of your choice to this list. This is what we're here for. And we can easily connect you to qualified people to answer your questions more thoroughly. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 01:23:47 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:23:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions Message-ID: Hi All, I believe this topic has been talked about before, but I was wondering if anyone on this list has taken the GRE? What is it like and how did you go about getting accommadations? How difficult was it requesting accommadations and how long did it take for them to be accepted? Thanks so much for always with your assistance! Justin From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 01:54:05 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:54:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate In-Reply-To: References: <004a01ce3357$ab3d84b0$01b88e10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I noticed the same things. Humberto, I realize you might not be directly in the know about this as it was forwarded to you, but if you know anything more can you explain a little bit? If something really is going wrong then I do agree something should be done to support Vincent, but the situation is a little hazy at the moment. On 4/7/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I also wanted to see some more details about the kind of support > Vincent was needing that he wasn't getting from Georgia Tech. It's not > clear from the petition, for example, whether he only used five hours > per week of reader support because he only needed that much or because > he wants more but can't get the university or voc rehab to fund it. > I'd want to know more before signing this petition. Also, some of the > language irritated me, like saying his accomplishments are more > impressive because of his disability and that he is an inspiration. I > think blind students' achievements should be compared to achievements > made by other students in the same field, not seen as greater just > because a student is blind. > Arielle > > On 4/7/13, Humberto Avila wrote: >> Please see below! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lauren >> Merryfield >> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:58 PM >> To: NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List >> Cc: NFB of California List >> Subject: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support >> He >> Needs to Graduate >> >> Hi, >> I am not sure what this student needs to graduate, but perhaps people can >> sign this petition and put helpful comments in the comments field. I >> referred him to our national office. >> Thanks >> Lauren >> >> advice from my cats: "meow when you feel like it." >> The most basic of all human needs is the need to understand and be >> understood. The best way to understand people is to listen to them. >> -- Ralph Nichols >> Visit us at catliness.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Emily V., Care2 Action Alerts >> To: Lauren Merryfield >> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:04 AM >> Subject: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate >> >> >> Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on >> Facebook >> | Take Action >> >> action alert! >> Vincent Martin is blind and pursuing a master's degree at Georgia >> Tech >> even without the university's full support. His friend wants to make sure >> he >> gets all the help he needs to succeed. >> Help Blind Student Get Access to Everything He Needs to >> Learn >> >> >> please share >> it helps! >> >> Dear Lauren, >> >> Connie Davis met Vincent Martin at the Center for the Visually >> Impaired in Atlanta. He was her computer instructor, one of many roles he >> takes on, from volunteer computer teacher for senior citizens to first >> fully-blind master's candidate at Georgia Tech. But to Connie, Vincent is >> just a kind, brilliant friend. >> >> That's why Connie was so dismayed that, despite his hard work and >> expertise, Georgia Tech wasn't giving Vincent the support he needs to get >> his graduate degree. >> >> Vincent is studying Human Computer Interaction and is often asked >> to >> guest lecture on the subject to other professors. His accomplishments are >> even more impressive given his disability. Many requirements on campus >> are >> web-based and not accessible to Vincent, even with his special assistive >> software. While he gets electronic textbooks, they don't give him access >> to >> equations essential for his study. >> >> There are things Georgia Tech can -- and, in fact, is legally >> obligated -- to do to help Vincent succeed. Blind graduate students in >> technical fields often have up to 20 hours of sighted assistance each >> week. >> Vincent has made do with just five. They can also provide tactile >> descriptions of diagrams in class. >> >> "He is a role model to all Blind and Visually Impaired people," >> Connie >> told us. We'd go one step further: Vincent is a inspiration to everyone. >> >> Join Connie's fight and ask Georgia Tech administrators to make >> sure >> Vincent gets everything he needs to earn his master's degree! >> >> >> Thank you for taking action, >> >> Emily V. >> Care2 and ThePetitionSite Team >> >> >> >> check your >> Butterfly Credits! redeem credits | about butterfly rewards >> Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on >> Facebook >> | Take Action >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> To stop receiving this newsletter, visit: >> http://www.care2.com/newsletters/unsub/84/0/11062134/9f7e9dfc >> >> or send a blank email message to: >> ng-u-84-11062134-8643213-13217826-ed27cfdb at australia.care2.com >> >> Care2.com, Inc. >> 275 Shoreline Drive, Suite 300 >> Redwood City, CA 94065 >> http://www.care2.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nfbwatlk mailing list >> nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nfbwatlk: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 03:25:58 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 23:25:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008d01ce333f$9fb1d0f0$df1572d0$@gmail.com> I think I had the help of my disability office. I don't exactly remember, but I would start there. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions Hi All, I believe this topic has been talked about before, but I was wondering if anyone on this list has taken the GRE? What is it like and how did you go about getting accommadations? How difficult was it requesting accommadations and how long did it take for them to be accepted? Thanks so much for always with your assistance! Justin _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 03:27:35 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 23:27:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate In-Reply-To: References: <004a01ce3357$ab3d84b0$01b88e10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008f01ce333f$d97087f0$8c5197d0$@gmail.com> I would like to see more details as well. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 4:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate I also wanted to see some more details about the kind of support Vincent was needing that he wasn't getting from Georgia Tech. It's not clear from the petition, for example, whether he only used five hours per week of reader support because he only needed that much or because he wants more but can't get the university or voc rehab to fund it. I'd want to know more before signing this petition. Also, some of the language irritated me, like saying his accomplishments are more impressive because of his disability and that he is an inspiration. I think blind students' achievements should be compared to achievements made by other students in the same field, not seen as greater just because a student is blind. Arielle On 4/7/13, Humberto Avila wrote: > Please see below! > > -----Original Message----- > From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Lauren Merryfield > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:58 PM > To: NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List > Cc: NFB of California List > Subject: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student > Support He Needs to Graduate > > Hi, > I am not sure what this student needs to graduate, but perhaps people > can sign this petition and put helpful comments in the comments field. > I referred him to our national office. > Thanks > Lauren > > advice from my cats: "meow when you feel like it." > The most basic of all human needs is the need to understand and be > understood. The best way to understand people is to listen to them. > -- Ralph Nichols > Visit us at catliness.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Emily V., Care2 Action Alerts > To: Lauren Merryfield > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:04 AM > Subject: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate > > > Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on > Facebook > | Take Action > > action alert! > Vincent Martin is blind and pursuing a master's degree at > Georgia Tech even without the university's full support. His friend > wants to make sure he gets all the help he needs to succeed. > Help Blind Student Get Access to Everything He Needs to > Learn > > > please share > it helps! > > Dear Lauren, > > Connie Davis met Vincent Martin at the Center for the Visually > Impaired in Atlanta. He was her computer instructor, one of many roles > he takes on, from volunteer computer teacher for senior citizens to > first fully-blind master's candidate at Georgia Tech. But to Connie, > Vincent is just a kind, brilliant friend. > > That's why Connie was so dismayed that, despite his hard work > and expertise, Georgia Tech wasn't giving Vincent the support he needs > to get his graduate degree. > > Vincent is studying Human Computer Interaction and is often > asked to guest lecture on the subject to other professors. His > accomplishments are even more impressive given his disability. Many > requirements on campus are web-based and not accessible to Vincent, > even with his special assistive software. While he gets electronic > textbooks, they don't give him access to equations essential for his study. > > There are things Georgia Tech can -- and, in fact, is legally > obligated -- to do to help Vincent succeed. Blind graduate students in > technical fields often have up to 20 hours of sighted assistance each week. > Vincent has made do with just five. They can also provide tactile > descriptions of diagrams in class. > > "He is a role model to all Blind and Visually Impaired people," > Connie > told us. We'd go one step further: Vincent is a inspiration to everyone. > > Join Connie's fight and ask Georgia Tech administrators to make > sure Vincent gets everything he needs to earn his master's degree! > > > Thank you for taking action, > > Emily V. > Care2 and ThePetitionSite Team > > > > check your > Butterfly Credits! redeem credits | about butterfly rewards > Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on > Facebook > | Take Action > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ---- > To stop receiving this newsletter, visit: > http://www.care2.com/newsletters/unsub/84/0/11062134/9f7e9dfc > > or send a blank email message to: > ng-u-84-11062134-8643213-13217826-ed27cfdb at australia.care2.com > > Care2.com, Inc. > 275 Shoreline Drive, Suite 300 > Redwood City, CA 94065 > http://www.care2.com > > _______________________________________________ > nfbwatlk mailing list > nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nfbwatlk: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humbe > rto2%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 05:10:19 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 01:10:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate In-Reply-To: <008f01ce333f$d97087f0$8c5197d0$@gmail.com> References: <004a01ce3357$ab3d84b0$01b88e10$@gmail.com> <008f01ce333f$d97087f0$8c5197d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Also, adding again to what Arielle pointed out, another helpful detail for us to know might be what he wants these reader services to be used for. Granted, I'm not a masters student, but perhaps he isn't getting 20 hours of reading time because Georgia Tech has provided him other means of accessing the information such as electronic text files which would do the same thing as a reader when read with voice output of some sort. Until we know more about the situation and what he wants to do with the services he doesn't feel like he's getting, if Georgia Tech really isn't providing these services under reasonable circumstances, and other information along those lines making an informed decision is tough. Also, I noticed the third time reading this petition that it was started by one of Vincent's friends, not Vincent himself. I don't know how it slipped past me the first two times, but it's also possible that this friend has just google searched or drawn conclusions based on what he sees Vincent getting in comparison to something they read online or what another blind grad student said they got from their university. It's great that this friend wants Vincent to reach his full potential, but I'm confused as to whether Vincent is doing fine with what he's got and the friend is just overly concerned, or if there actually is a problem with the university not doing what they should to give Vincent the ability to achieve his full potential. Any clarification, if you can give it of course, would be great, and I'm sure that if the latter is the case a bunch of us will quickly step on board to sign the petition. On 4/6/13, justin williams wrote: > I would like to see more details as well. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 4:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad > Student Support He Needs to Graduate > > I also wanted to see some more details about the kind of support Vincent > was > needing that he wasn't getting from Georgia Tech. It's not clear from the > petition, for example, whether he only used five hours per week of reader > support because he only needed that much or because he wants more but can't > get the university or voc rehab to fund it. > I'd want to know more before signing this petition. Also, some of the > language irritated me, like saying his accomplishments are more impressive > because of his disability and that he is an inspiration. I think blind > students' achievements should be compared to achievements made by other > students in the same field, not seen as greater just because a student is > blind. > Arielle > > On 4/7/13, Humberto Avila wrote: >> Please see below! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Lauren Merryfield >> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:58 PM >> To: NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List >> Cc: NFB of California List >> Subject: [nfbwatlk] {Disarmed} Fw: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student >> Support He Needs to Graduate >> >> Hi, >> I am not sure what this student needs to graduate, but perhaps people >> can sign this petition and put helpful comments in the comments field. >> I referred him to our national office. >> Thanks >> Lauren >> >> advice from my cats: "meow when you feel like it." >> The most basic of all human needs is the need to understand and be >> understood. The best way to understand people is to listen to them. >> -- Ralph Nichols >> Visit us at catliness.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Emily V., Care2 Action Alerts >> To: Lauren Merryfield >> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:04 AM >> Subject: Don't Deny Blind Grad Student Support He Needs to Graduate >> >> >> Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on >> Facebook >> | Take Action >> >> action alert! >> Vincent Martin is blind and pursuing a master's degree at >> Georgia Tech even without the university's full support. His friend >> wants to make sure he gets all the help he needs to succeed. >> Help Blind Student Get Access to Everything He Needs to >> Learn >> >> >> please share >> it helps! >> >> Dear Lauren, >> >> Connie Davis met Vincent Martin at the Center for the Visually >> Impaired in Atlanta. He was her computer instructor, one of many roles >> he takes on, from volunteer computer teacher for senior citizens to >> first fully-blind master's candidate at Georgia Tech. But to Connie, >> Vincent is just a kind, brilliant friend. >> >> That's why Connie was so dismayed that, despite his hard work >> and expertise, Georgia Tech wasn't giving Vincent the support he needs >> to get his graduate degree. >> >> Vincent is studying Human Computer Interaction and is often >> asked to guest lecture on the subject to other professors. His >> accomplishments are even more impressive given his disability. Many >> requirements on campus are web-based and not accessible to Vincent, >> even with his special assistive software. While he gets electronic >> textbooks, they don't give him access to equations essential for his > study. >> >> There are things Georgia Tech can -- and, in fact, is legally >> obligated -- to do to help Vincent succeed. Blind graduate students in >> technical fields often have up to 20 hours of sighted assistance each > week. >> Vincent has made do with just five. They can also provide tactile >> descriptions of diagrams in class. >> >> "He is a role model to all Blind and Visually Impaired people," >> Connie >> told us. We'd go one step further: Vincent is a inspiration to everyone. >> >> Join Connie's fight and ask Georgia Tech administrators to make >> sure Vincent gets everything he needs to earn his master's degree! >> >> >> Thank you for taking action, >> >> Emily V. >> Care2 and ThePetitionSite Team >> >> >> >> check your >> Butterfly Credits! redeem credits | about butterfly rewards >> Care2 subscriber since Jan 5, 2013 Unsubscribe | Share on >> Facebook >> | Take Action >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> ---- >> To stop receiving this newsletter, visit: >> http://www.care2.com/newsletters/unsub/84/0/11062134/9f7e9dfc >> >> or send a blank email message to: >> ng-u-84-11062134-8643213-13217826-ed27cfdb at australia.care2.com >> >> Care2.com, Inc. >> 275 Shoreline Drive, Suite 300 >> Redwood City, CA 94065 >> http://www.care2.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nfbwatlk mailing list >> nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nfbwatlk: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humbe >> rto2%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From jty727 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 11:17:45 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 07:17:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions In-Reply-To: <008d01ce333f$9fb1d0f0$df1572d0$@gmail.com> References: <008d01ce333f$9fb1d0f0$df1572d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks I am going to ask them, but just curious people's experiences. On 4/6/13, justin williams wrote: > I think I had the help of my disability office. I don't exactly remember, > but I would start there. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions > > Hi All, > > I believe this topic has been talked about before, but I was wondering if > anyone on this list has taken the GRE? What is it like and how did you go > about getting accommadations? How difficult was it requesting > accommadations and how long did it take for them to be accepted? > > Thanks so much for always with your assistance! > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 13:08:34 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 09:08:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper Message-ID: <3D5FBD47-44FC-4961-A5C1-1660FD1E4452@gmail.com> Hello all, I hope you guys can help me out with a project that I am doing. I am taking a theology class on different theories of justice and for our final paper, we have to choose a current justice issue and find newspaper/magazine/research articles to write about. I am doing mine on the inequalities in education for visually impaired students as it is a topic that has not gained enough attention in the media. I know the NFB has published many articles on the issue from the Braille literacy crisis to inaccessible technology, but do you know of any other resources that I might look up for my research? Any guidance would be much appreciated. Cheers, Minh -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From trillian551 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 13:20:00 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 09:20:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions In-Reply-To: References: <008d01ce333f$9fb1d0f0$df1572d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Justin, I suggest that you try searching through the NABS-L archives. If you google Nabs-L archives, it will come up. On the search terms you can simply type in GRE, and you'll be able to view the threads we have discussed here in past. They have been pretty extensive and detailed. Once you do that, and have further questions, you can post those new questions. Thanks! Mary On 4/8/13, Justin Young wrote: > Thanks I am going to ask them, but just curious people's experiences. > > On 4/6/13, justin williams wrote: >> I think I had the help of my disability office. I don't exactly >> remember, >> but I would start there. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young >> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions >> >> Hi All, >> >> I believe this topic has been talked about before, but I was wondering if >> anyone on this list has taken the GRE? What is it like and how did you >> go >> about getting accommadations? How difficult was it requesting >> accommadations and how long did it take for them to be accepted? >> >> Thanks so much for always with your assistance! >> >> Justin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 13:50:35 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:50:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper In-Reply-To: <3D5FBD47-44FC-4961-A5C1-1660FD1E4452@gmail.com> References: <3D5FBD47-44FC-4961-A5C1-1660FD1E4452@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a401ce3396$e2248c00$a66da400$@gmail.com> You might try the AFB site. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:09 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper Hello all, I hope you guys can help me out with a project that I am doing. I am taking a theology class on different theories of justice and for our final paper, we have to choose a current justice issue and find newspaper/magazine/research articles to write about. I am doing mine on the inequalities in education for visually impaired students as it is a topic that has not gained enough attention in the media. I know the NFB has published many articles on the issue from the Braille literacy crisis to inaccessible technology, but do you know of any other resources that I might look up for my research? Any guidance would be much appreciated. Cheers, Minh -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From trillian551 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 13:58:17 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 09:58:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper In-Reply-To: <00a401ce3396$e2248c00$a66da400$@gmail.com> References: <3D5FBD47-44FC-4961-A5C1-1660FD1E4452@gmail.com> <00a401ce3396$e2248c00$a66da400$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Minh, I'd approach this like any other research project. Of course try Googling, and specifically, looking in Google scholar. If your school library subscribes to news archives type databases, try searching on there. If you can't find enough from different sources, I'd suggest widening your topic to include students with print disabilities, and maybe do a sub-focus on blindness. Best of luck. Mary On 4/7/13, justin williams wrote: > You might try the AFB site. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:09 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper > > Hello all, > > I hope you guys can help me out with a project that I am doing. I am taking > a theology class on different theories of justice and for our final paper, > we have to choose a current justice issue and find > newspaper/magazine/research articles to write about. I am doing mine on the > inequalities in education for visually impaired students as it is a topic > that has not gained enough attention in the media. I know the NFB has > published many articles on the issue from the Braille literacy crisis to > inaccessible technology, but do you know of any other resources that I > might > look up for my research? Any guidance would be much appreciated. > > Cheers, > Minh > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their > dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From gloria.graves at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 14:28:57 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 09:28:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper Message-ID: <08C73F83C1804092890C62689C67DA4D@Gloria> Hello all, I am working on a sociolgogy research project which deals with violence toward individuals with physical disabilities. I hav found some research so far, but was wondering if anyone could direct me to some sources that might be helpful? Thank you in advance Gloria From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 14:47:28 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 10:47:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper In-Reply-To: References: <3D5FBD47-44FC-4961-A5C1-1660FD1E4452@gmail.com> <00a401ce3396$e2248c00$a66da400$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Try checking if organizations such as NLS and Bookshare have statistics, E.G. How many people they serve, what portion of those served are students, etc. I agree with Mary; Google is great too. I did a report specifically on literacy inequalities between print and braille readers a few years ago. The NFB, AFB, and other sources were out there on that topic, so I would imagine they would be similar for this one. Good luck with your paper! On 4/8/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Hi Minh, > I'd approach this like any other research project. Of course try > Googling, and specifically, looking in Google scholar. If your school > library subscribes to news archives type databases, try searching on > there. > If you can't find enough from different sources, I'd suggest widening > your topic to include students with print disabilities, and maybe do a > sub-focus on blindness. > Best of luck. > Mary > > On 4/7/13, justin williams wrote: >> You might try the AFB site. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha >> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:09 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper >> >> Hello all, >> >> I hope you guys can help me out with a project that I am doing. I am >> taking >> a theology class on different theories of justice and for our final >> paper, >> we have to choose a current justice issue and find >> newspaper/magazine/research articles to write about. I am doing mine on >> the >> inequalities in education for visually impaired students as it is a topic >> that has not gained enough attention in the media. I know the NFB has >> published many articles on the issue from the Braille literacy crisis to >> inaccessible technology, but do you know of any other resources that I >> might >> look up for my research? Any guidance would be much appreciated. >> >> Cheers, >> Minh >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their >> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > — > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 21:20:04 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 17:20:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How to Write a Cover Letter Message-ID: <014c01ce349e$d6c73660$8455a320$@gmail.com> The cover letter is the second most important piece of your job application. If the résumé could be thought of as a window into your professional qualifications, the cover letter is an invitation to sit in your proverbial living room for a more personal look into your character, so what kind of impression should you be giving prospective employers? More importantly, what should you consider avoiding? Read the rest of the article: http://joeorozco.com/blog_how_to_write_a_cover_letter From blacklotus86 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 21:46:49 2013 From: blacklotus86 at gmail.com (zeynep sule yilmaz) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:46:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper In-Reply-To: <08C73F83C1804092890C62689C67DA4D@Gloria> References: <08C73F83C1804092890C62689C67DA4D@Gloria> Message-ID: Hi Gloria, Have you searched on introductory data bases or Google scholar? I do not know any direct resource but if you want to search more academic articles, you can go for these. If you give me more specific info, I would be happy to help. Good luck, Zeynep 2013/4/8, Gloria G : > Hello all, > I am working on a sociolgogy research project which deals with violence > toward individuals with physical disabilities. I hav found some research so > far, but was wondering if anyone could direct me to some sources that might > be helpful? Thank you in advance > Gloria > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com > From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 00:53:06 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:53:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper Message-ID: <5163669e.c59fec0a.66f4.761f@mx.google.com> Excuse me if I sound really stupid, but what's google scholar? I've never heard of it. My school doesn't require tons of research, so I'm not very familiar with many academic information sources. ----- Original Message ----- From: zeynep sule yilmaz : Hello all, I am working on a sociolgogy research project which deals with violence toward individuals with physical disabilities. I hav found some research so far, but was wondering if anyone could direct me to some sources that might be helpful? Thank you in advance Gloria _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 01:12:03 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 19:12:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper In-Reply-To: <5163669e.c59fec0a.66f4.761f@mx.google.com> References: <5163669e.c59fec0a.66f4.761f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Google Scholar is a subsection of Google that gives you citations and abstracts of published research articles if you search Google for a keyword. The articles are mostly peer-reviewed, so they are credible sources and as good as you would find in a library. However, it is usually pretty hard to get the full text of articles on Google Scholar because most of those articles come from journals that require paid subscriptions. But for those of you in college, your school library should subscribe to many journals. I'm not sure if your instructor requires you to use official published sources or if news articles would be OK. You should clarify that ASAP with your instructor if you aren't sure. If you are expected to use published articles, you may want to set up a meeting with somebody in the library to learn how to search their online system. Many, though not all, of those databases are quite accessible. On to Gloria's research topic: Gloria, have you heard of the Judge Rotenberg Center in Massachusetts? They are an institution that has historically engaged in severe shock "treatments" and other physically abusive practices toward their residents who are autistic or have other similar disabilities, allegedly to try to improve their behavior. They have been the subject of a lot of media discussion because the Massachusetts legislature recently passed a law banning them from using the shock "treatments" with new residents, but they are still allowed to do so with continuing residents. There is no question that their practices are abusive and someone from the U.N. has even officially stated that they engage in torture. While they are supposed to be primarily for those with mental disabilities, some of the residents also have physical disabilities. It is an agonizing story to read about, but could be a fascinating example to explore in your research paper. Just Google "Judge Rotenberg Center JRC" and you'll find a lot of stuff about them. Arielle On 4/8/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Excuse me if I sound really stupid, but what's google scholar? > I've never heard of it. My school doesn't require tons of > research, so I'm not very familiar with many academic information > sources. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: zeynep sule yilmaz To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:46:49 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with a paper > > Hi Gloria, > > Have you searched on introductory data bases or Google scholar? I > do > not know any direct resource but if you want to search more > academic > articles, you can go for these. If you give me more specific > info, I > would be happy to help. > > Good luck, > > Zeynep > > > 2013/4/8, Gloria G : > Hello all, > I am working on a sociolgogy research project which deals with > violence > toward individuals with physical disabilities. I hav found some > research so > far, but was wondering if anyone could direct me to some sources > that might > be helpful? Thank you in advance > Gloria > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 02:00:18 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:00:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Literature Project Presentation Assignment Message-ID: Hi my name is Helga, and I would like to ask you some questions regarding my American Literature project. For my American Literature class my Professor told us that we need to do a presentation that needs to discuss/illustrate one aspect of American Literature & culture that we have discussed this term. I’m actually thinking in talking about on how the Puritan Era started, and also narrate the about the life of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson, who was a Puritan woman of that Era. Do you have any suggestions on how could I start to talk about these topics, and how to create a interesting Power Point presentation in order for me to present in front of my class? I’m not really so sure how to create a Power Point. I actually only know some basics of it. . By the way, my presentation is due Monday, April 29. Thanks so much. From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 02:26:28 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:26:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Literature Project Presentation Assignment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Helga, Start by doing research if you haven't already. It sounds like you're pretty on the ball and thinking ahead about that though. I think that if you need more research to make things fall into place that might help. If you have enough information and it's organizable then it should pretty much speak for itself. If your question was more about what angle you should take, some of the best presentations of this kind are the ones which tell stories. You could use the woman you're using as a case study of sorts and touch on the specifics of Puritanism just by talking about her life. For instance, you could start your presentation by explaining what principles make up the puritan religion and how this effected lifestyles and beliefs at the time. Mary, of course, was no exception, and this is her story. Then you could tell the rest of the historical facts in the context of narrating her life, sort of combining the two. It's great for literature classes. Hope this helps. On 4/8/13, Helga wrote: > Hi my name is Helga, and I would like to ask you some questions regarding my > American Literature project. For my American Literature class my Professor > told us that we need to do a presentation that needs to discuss/illustrate > one aspect of American Literature & culture that we have discussed this > term. I’m actually thinking in talking about on how the Puritan Era started, > and also narrate the about the life of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson, who was a > Puritan woman of that Era. Do you have any suggestions on how could I start > to talk about these topics, and how to create a interesting Power Point > presentation in order for me to present in front of my class? I’m not really > so sure how to create a Power Point. I actually only know some basics of it. > . By the way, my presentation is due Monday, April 29. Thanks so much. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 02:35:24 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 20:35:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions In-Reply-To: References: <008d01ce333f$9fb1d0f0$df1572d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The folks at your disability office may or may not know much about GRE accommodations. It would be better to contact someone at ETS directly. You can contact Ruth Loew at rloew at ets.org She speaks at NABS meetings often and is always available to help blind students get accommodations for their ETS tests. Arielle On 4/8/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Dear Justin, > I suggest that you try searching through the NABS-L archives. If you > google Nabs-L archives, it will come up. On the search terms you can > simply type in GRE, and you'll be able to view the threads we have > discussed here in past. They have been pretty extensive and detailed. > Once you do that, and have further questions, you can post those new > questions. > Thanks! > Mary > > On 4/8/13, Justin Young wrote: >> Thanks I am going to ask them, but just curious people's experiences. >> >> On 4/6/13, justin williams wrote: >>> I think I had the help of my disability office. I don't exactly >>> remember, >>> but I would start there. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin >>> Young >>> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I believe this topic has been talked about before, but I was wondering >>> if >>> anyone on this list has taken the GRE? What is it like and how did you >>> go >>> about getting accommadations? How difficult was it requesting >>> accommadations and how long did it take for them to be accepted? >>> >>> Thanks so much for always with your assistance! >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > — > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 02:36:24 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:36:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with a paper In-Reply-To: References: <5163669e.c59fec0a.66f4.761f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, Sophie and all, another really good academic site I've just been steered onto by my psych professor is plos1. It's peer-reviewed so it's credible, and although a lot of the things on there have to do with psychology, some of the articles cover other topics as well and can be used to substantiate other claims in non-psychology papers or assignments. E.G, Gloria might talk about the effect the Judge Rotenburg org Center abuse or other violence has on people with disabilities, or people in general, and could find an article on the psychological damage that could result from these actions. It's really easy to use and very accessible too. And, if you're not very good with MLA and APA like me and the type of person who uses the Perdu Online Writing Lab to cite everything, it's great because they give you the APA citation there on the article along with the full text. Just thought I'd mention it. Arielle's suggestion is good. You could also research mental institutions or asylems for the disabled in the early 20th century and before that. Practices then were in some cases worse than the Judge Rotenburg stuff going on today. If you want to go a little broader you could also discuss other forms of abuse these residents suffered including malnutrition and the loss of skills they had. For example, for a class I had to watch a video about people with physical disabilities, and one guy featured on the video was committed to an asylum for the disabled by his father. He had mild cerebral palsy and was doing fairly well before he was sent there, but when his stepmother got him out he couldn't walk anymore and was confined to a wheelchair because he had spent so much time not walking that he lost muscle tone. He had lost language skills too, which was a real shame because cognitively he was there and was bright. His abuse was low expectations and neglect, which has it's effects, too. Just something else to consider in your research. On 4/8/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Google Scholar is a subsection of Google that gives you citations and > abstracts of published research articles if you search Google for a > keyword. The articles are mostly peer-reviewed, so they are credible > sources and as good as you would find in a library. However, it is > usually pretty hard to get the full text of articles on Google Scholar > because most of those articles come from journals that require paid > subscriptions. But for those of you in college, your school library > should subscribe to many journals. I'm not sure if your instructor > requires you to use official published sources or if news articles > would be OK. You should clarify that ASAP with your instructor if you > aren't sure. If you are expected to use published articles, you may > want to set up a meeting with somebody in the library to learn how to > search their online system. Many, though not all, of those databases > are quite accessible. > On to Gloria's research topic: Gloria, have you heard of the Judge > Rotenberg Center in Massachusetts? They are an institution that has > historically engaged in severe shock "treatments" and other physically > abusive practices toward their residents who are autistic or have > other similar disabilities, allegedly to try to improve their > behavior. They have been the subject of a lot of media discussion > because the Massachusetts legislature recently passed a law banning > them from using the shock "treatments" with new residents, but they > are still allowed to do so with continuing residents. There is no > question that their practices are abusive and someone from the U.N. > has even officially stated that they engage in torture. While they are > supposed to be primarily for those with mental disabilities, some of > the residents also have physical disabilities. It is an agonizing > story to read about, but could be a fascinating example to explore in > your research paper. Just Google "Judge Rotenberg Center JRC" and > you'll find a lot of stuff about them. > Arielle > > On 4/8/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> Excuse me if I sound really stupid, but what's google scholar? >> I've never heard of it. My school doesn't require tons of >> research, so I'm not very familiar with many academic information >> sources. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: zeynep sule yilmaz > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:46:49 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with a paper >> >> Hi Gloria, >> >> Have you searched on introductory data bases or Google scholar? I >> do >> not know any direct resource but if you want to search more >> academic >> articles, you can go for these. If you give me more specific >> info, I >> would be happy to help. >> >> Good luck, >> >> Zeynep >> >> >> 2013/4/8, Gloria G : >> Hello all, >> I am working on a sociolgogy research project which deals with >> violence >> toward individuals with physical disabilities. I hav found some >> research so >> far, but was wondering if anyone could direct me to some sources >> that might >> be helpful? Thank you in advance >> Gloria >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From jty727 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 02:37:46 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:37:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions In-Reply-To: References: <008d01ce333f$9fb1d0f0$df1572d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you very much Arielle! Always appreciate your assistance! On 4/8/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > The folks at your disability office may or may not know much about GRE > accommodations. It would be better to contact someone at ETS directly. > You can contact Ruth Loew at > rloew at ets.org > She speaks at NABS meetings often and is always available to help > blind students get accommodations for their ETS tests. > Arielle > > On 4/8/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: >> Dear Justin, >> I suggest that you try searching through the NABS-L archives. If you >> google Nabs-L archives, it will come up. On the search terms you can >> simply type in GRE, and you'll be able to view the threads we have >> discussed here in past. They have been pretty extensive and detailed. >> Once you do that, and have further questions, you can post those new >> questions. >> Thanks! >> Mary >> >> On 4/8/13, Justin Young wrote: >>> Thanks I am going to ask them, but just curious people's experiences. >>> >>> On 4/6/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> I think I had the help of my disability office. I don't exactly >>>> remember, >>>> but I would start there. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin >>>> Young >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Questions >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I believe this topic has been talked about before, but I was wondering >>>> if >>>> anyone on this list has taken the GRE? What is it like and how did you >>>> go >>>> about getting accommadations? How difficult was it requesting >>>> accommadations and how long did it take for them to be accepted? >>>> >>>> Thanks so much for always with your assistance! >>>> >>>> Justin >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >> feel." >> — >> Maya Angelou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 03:53:13 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 23:53:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter Message-ID: Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in order to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will give us a topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper next week, but this book is hard to understand due to the old English from the 1800’s. My professor told us that we need to read the entire book in order to write this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and what do you recommend me to do in order for me to understand The Scarlet letter much better? Actually, my brother help me find some summaries of the whole book, but What other sources I can use in order to understand this book much better? I actually, have the book in Audio and Braille format, but still it’s hard to understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By the way, my paper will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 9 04:07:53 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 00:07:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, well, you already did my first suggestion. I was going to suggest read in braille! For many people, reading word by word in braille equates to a better understanding and its easier to analyze the text by reading and rereading certain parts. I'm not sure what to suggest with out knowing what type of essay it is. All I can think of is reading plot summaries from sparknotes or similar source. Discuss it with a classmate. Maybe even ask a tutor at school for help; many schools offer free tutoring. Also, use a dictionary for unfamiliar terms. I think I read that book in high school, but we must have read a different version as I do not recall much old english in it. Is this course part of a major or general program? Have you taken a literature class before? I took a couple during my undergrad degree. Good luck. -----Original Message----- From: Helga Schreiber Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:53 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in order to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will give us a topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper next week, but this book is hard to understand due to the old English from the 1800’s. My professor told us that we need to read the entire book in order to write this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and what do you recommend me to do in order for me to understand The Scarlet letter much better? Actually, my brother help me find some summaries of the whole book, but What other sources I can use in order to understand this book much better? I actually, have the book in Audio and Braille format, but still it’s hard to understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By the way, my paper will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 04:16:23 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 00:16:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, For research try google and any library databases you might have access to through your school. I did a report on the Scarlet letter a few years ago when I was in a high school honors English class, so I can say that plenty of sources should come up covering a wide range of specific topics if you google. All the suggestions Ashley gave for understanding the text of the book itself are good. It also might be good to look at some modern english translations of things written in that style if you haven't read that colonial style of English before. (In high school when we read The Taming of the Shrew my teacher made us match the modern day english translations of the lines with the original words from the script, and the year before when we read McBeth my teacher actually wrote out a slang version of the first scene for us to read. Hearing them in a context you're used to really helps you get the translation down). Good luck. On 4/9/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hello, > well, you already did my first suggestion. I was going to suggest read in > braille! For many people, reading word by word in braille equates to a > better understanding and its easier to analyze the text by reading and > rereading certain parts. > > I'm not sure what to suggest with out knowing what type of essay it is. > All I can think of is reading plot summaries from sparknotes or similar > source. > Discuss it with a classmate. Maybe even ask a tutor at school for help; many > schools offer free tutoring. > > Also, use a dictionary for unfamiliar terms. I think I read that book in > high school, but we must have read a different version as I do not recall > much old english in it. > > Is this course part of a major or general program? Have you taken a > literature class before? > I took a couple during my undergrad degree. > > Good luck. > -----Original Message----- > From: Helga Schreiber > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:53 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter > > Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in order > to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will give us a > topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper next week, but > this book is hard to understand due to the old English from the 1800’s. My > professor told us that we need to read the entire book in order to write > this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and > what do you recommend me to do in order for me to understand The Scarlet > letter much better? Actually, my brother help me find some summaries of the > whole book, but What other sources I can use in order to understand this > book much better? I actually, have the book in Audio and Braille format, > but still it’s hard to understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By > the way, my paper will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 05:00:32 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:00:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Power Point Message-ID: Hi, Do you know how to create slides of a 2007 Power Point, and how to write some content information on them? I actually know some basics of it because my Lighthouse instructor taught me. Also, Do you know how to put pictures and videos on them? I was just wondering because I’m actually going to present a presentation for my Literature class that is due on Monday, April 29, and I’m not so sure how to do it? Thank you so much. From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 04:37:34 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 00:37:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Where can I find some modern English Translation of The Scarlet Letter in a Braille format? I was just wondering because I really like to read it it in Braille more than than in Electronic format. Thanks so much. -----Original Message--- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 12:16 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter Hi, For research try google and any library databases you might have access to through your school. I did a report on the Scarlet letter a few years ago when I was in a high school honors English class, so I can say that plenty of sources should come up covering a wide range of specific topics if you google. All the suggestions Ashley gave for understanding the text of the book itself are good. It also might be good to look at some modern english translations of things written in that style if you haven't read that colonial style of English before. (In high school when we read The Taming of the Shrew my teacher made us match the modern day english translations of the lines with the original words from the script, and the year before when we read McBeth my teacher actually wrote out a slang version of the first scene for us to read. Hearing them in a context you're used to really helps you get the translation down). Good luck. On 4/9/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hello, > well, you already did my first suggestion. I was going to suggest read in > braille! For many people, reading word by word in braille equates to a > better understanding and its easier to analyze the text by reading and > rereading certain parts. > > I'm not sure what to suggest with out knowing what type of essay it is. > All I can think of is reading plot summaries from sparknotes or similar > source. > Discuss it with a classmate. Maybe even ask a tutor at school for help; > many > schools offer free tutoring. > > Also, use a dictionary for unfamiliar terms. I think I read that book in > high school, but we must have read a different version as I do not recall > much old english in it. > > Is this course part of a major or general program? Have you taken a > literature class before? > I took a couple during my undergrad degree. > > Good luck. > -----Original Message----- > From: Helga Schreiber > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:53 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter > > Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in > order > to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will give us a > topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper next week, but > this book is hard to understand due to the old English from the 1800’s. My > professor told us that we need to read the entire book in order to write > this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, > and > what do you recommend me to do in order for me to understand The Scarlet > letter much better? Actually, my brother help me find some summaries of > the > whole book, but What other sources I can use in order to understand this > book much better? I actually, have the book in Audio and Braille format, > but still it’s hard to understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By > the way, my paper will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 05:11:46 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 01:11:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Power Point In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005101ce3417$92038740$b60a95c0$@gmail.com> I do not unfortunately. I would definitely help you if I did. I hope to learn soon when I have the chance to go through the tutorials. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 1:01 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Power Point Hi, Do you know how to create slides of a 2007 Power Point, and how to write some content information on them? I actually know some basics of it because my Lighthouse instructor taught me. Also, Do you know how to put pictures and videos on them? I was just wondering because I’m actually going to present a presentation for my Literature class that is due on Monday, April 29, and I’m not so sure how to do it? Thank you so much. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 05:10:29 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:10:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Read it on the computer arrowing down line by line. That way you can reread the hard passages over and over and place a mark like *`* at potential quotes. Also, read the spark notes. Spark notes are fantastic to read along with complex texts if one is not quite sure of all the meanings of a passage. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Helga Schreiber Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 8:53 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in order to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will give us a topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper next week, but this book is hard to understand due to the old English from the 1800’s. My professor told us that we need to read the entire book in order to write this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and what do you recommend me to do in order for me to understand The Scarlet letter much better? Actually, my brother help me find some summaries of the whole book, but What other sources I can use in order to understand this book much better? I actually, have the book in Audio and Braille format, but still it’s hard to understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By the way, my paper will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From kwakmiso at aol.com Tue Apr 9 05:13:41 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D002F822301F68-CFC-30248@webmail-d269.sysops.aol.com> I apologize if I am being repetitive here. I didn't read any of the following posts. I haven't read the book myself yet but I suggest you use Sparknotes. -----Original Message----- From: Helga Schreiber To: nabs-l Sent: Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:53 pm Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in order to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will give us a topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper next week, but this book is hard to understand due to the old English from the 1800’s. My professor told us that we need to read the entire book in order to write this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and what do you recommend me to do in order for me to understand The Scarlet letter much better? Actually, my brother help me find some summaries of the whole book, but What other sources I can use in order to understand this book much better? I actually, have the book in Audio and Braille format, but still it’s hard to understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By the way, my paper will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 06:28:02 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 00:28:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: <8D002F822301F68-CFC-30248@webmail-d269.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D002F822301F68-CFC-30248@webmail-d269.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Helga, The Scarlet Letter is actually one of the most personally meaningful books I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I think, if you can get through the massive section about the custom house at the very start (which, incidentally, wasn't required reading for my class when we did this book), you'll have an easier time with the rest of the book. Since a lot of people have mentioned spark notes, I need to warn you to be careful with it. Some teachers despise it and might mark you down for cheating if they find out you've used it, especially if you copy the ideas you find there in your own essays and just change the wording so it isn't obvious plagerism. Most teachers are probably fine with you using it to clarify the meanings of confusing passages here or there, some teachers might even encourage you to use it as a study supplament but be careful. It's probably a good idea to know where your teacher stands in regards to spark notes before you use them and don't ever use ideas you find there as a substitute for original thinking if you have to write any essays or book reviews. I know I'm being kind of anal but I think it needed to be said. Enjoy the book! I'd be more than happy to talk about it with you in more detail off-list if you want. As I said before, I think it's one of the most personally meaningful books I've ever read and it's definitely one of my favorites. Best, Kirt On 4/8/13, Miso Kwak wrote: > I apologize if I am being repetitive here. I didn't read any of the > following posts. > I haven't read the book myself yet but I suggest you use Sparknotes. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Helga Schreiber > To: nabs-l > Sent: Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:53 pm > Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter > > Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in > order to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will > give us a topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper > next week, but this book is hard to understand due to the old English > from the 1800’s. My professor told us that we need to read the entire > book in order to write this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter > by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and what do you recommend me to do in order for > me to understand The Scarlet letter much better? Actually, my brother > help me find some summaries of the whole book, but What other sources I > can use in order to understand this book much better? I actually, have > the book in Audio and Braille format, but still it’s hard to > understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By the way, my paper > will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Tue Apr 9 10:18:46 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 05:18:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A quick and accessible dictionary and other word information using email - (within seconds) - Free Message-ID: > >"Have you ever wished for a quick and accessible dictionary and >other word information using email?" Follow these instructions and >you will have all the information you need. Once more, the >information you request is usually emailed back to you within a >minute or two, sometimes within seconds. Simply send an email message to: > >wsmith at wordsmith.org > >and receive lots of interesting answers. > >Here's how it works: > >You begin by typing the email address for this service into the "to" field. >Then you tab to the subject field and write a few words as described below. >You can use all lower case letters. Do not write anything at all in >the edit field or main body of the message. Here are the details: > >Dictionary by Email > >To find the definition of a word, tab to the subject field. Type the word >define followed by a space. Type the word you want defined. Then, send the >message. > >Thesaurus by Email: > >To find synonyms of a word, tab to the subject field. Type the word synonym >followed by a space. Type the word for which you want synonyms. Then, send >the message. > >Acronym by Email > >To unscramble an acronym, tab to the subject field. Type the word acronym >followed by a space. Type the acronym whose expansion you want to find. >Then, send the message. > >Anagrams by Email > >To find anagrams, tab to the subject field. Type the word anagram followed >by a space. Next, type the word whose anagrams you want to find. Send the >message. > >Remember: All commands should be typed in the subject field and emailed to: > >wsmith at wordsmith.org > >Then, the learning and fun will begin. > >For more details, go to > >http://www.wordsmith.org From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 10:43:18 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 05:43:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Message-ID: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Hi Everyone, First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my life. There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all up to the person. I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less stressed about the future. At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn more. Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. Sam Video links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 From dandrews at visi.com Tue Apr 9 10:51:58 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 05:51:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] One Week Left to Register for the 2013 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium Message-ID: > >One Week Left to Register >to hear >Rebecca Bond, Newly Appointed Chief of DOJ's Disability Rights >Section, and Jonathan Young to Keynote > >at the > >2013 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium > >Push Forward and Push Back: Continuing the Struggle for the Right to >Live in the World > >April 18-19, 2013 >at the >National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute >Baltimore, Maryland > >Don't miss this opportunity to be one of the first to hear Rebecca >Bond talk about her plans for DOJ's Disability Rights Section as its >new Chief. In addition, 2013 luncheon keynote speaker Jonathan >Young, former Chairman of the National Council on Disability and >Partner and General Counsel at FOXKISER, will reflect on the >continuing struggle by people with disabilities for the right to >live in the world. > >The 2013 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium will consist of >plenary sessions and workshops facilitated by distinguished law >professors, practitioners, and advocates who will discuss topics >such as: the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with >Disabilities, the impact of Olmstead on employment, transitioning >from minor to adult in education, the status of Web sites as a place >of public accommodation following Target and Netflix, and individual >choice in decision making. > >2013 Keynote speakers: > > * Rebecca Bond, Chief (designate), U.S. Department of Justice, > Disability Rights Section > * Jonathan M. Young, Partner and General Counsel, FOXKISER > >2013 plenary session presenters: > > > * Curtis L. Decker, Executive Director, National Disability > Rights Network > * Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law & Associate Dean for > Experiential Education, and Director, Disability Rights Law Clinic, > American University Washington College of Law > * Kristin Booth Glen, Surrogate (retired), New York County > Surrogate's Court > * Daniel F. Goldstein, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > * Judith E. Heumann, Special Advisor on International > Disability Rights, United States Department of State > * Arlene B. Mayerson, Directing Attorney, Disability Rights > Education & Defense Fund > * Ari Ne'eman, President, Autistic Self Advocacy Network > * Curtis Richards, Director, Centre for Workforce Development, > Institute for Educational Leadership > * Eric Rosenthal, Executive Director, Disability Rights International > * Kathleen L. Wilde, Litigation Director, Disability Rights Oregon > >2013 workshop facilitators: > > > * Amy L. Allbright, Director, American Bar Association > Commission on Disability Rights > * Robert Bruskin, Senior Counsel, Washington Lawyers' Committee > for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs > * Ira Burnim, Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law > * Tina M. Campanella, Chief Executive Officer, Quality Trust > for Individuals with Disabilities > * Marc Charmatz, Senior Attorney, National Association of the Deaf > * David Ferleger, Esquire, Law Office of David Ferleger > * Leslie P. Francis, Associate Dean for Faculty Research and > Development, S.J. Quinney College of Law, and Alfred C. Emery > Distinguished Professor of Law and Distinguished Professor of > Philosophy, University of Utah > * Eden Heilman, Senior Staff Attorney, Southern Poverty Law Center > * Peter Jaszi, Professor of Law and Faculty Director of the > Glushko-Samuelson Intellectual Property Clinic, American University > Washington College of Law > * Marti Knisley, Director of the National Community Support > Initiative, Technical Assistance Collaborative > * Christopher Kuczynski, Assistant Legal Counsel, United States > Equal Employment Opportunity Commission > * Scott LaBarre, Principal, LaBarre Law Offices, P.C. > * Bill Lichtenstein, Parent and Journalist, Lichtenstein Creative Media > * Jennifer Mathis, Assistant Legal Director, Bazelon Center for > Mental Health Law > * Paula D. Pearlman, Executive Director, Disability Rights Legal Center > * Joseph B. Ryan, Associate Professor and Associate Director of > Research and Outreach for the School of Education, Clemson University > * Mehgan Sidhu, General Counsel, National Federation of the Blind > * Daniel T. Vail, Esquire, United States Equal Employment > Opportunity Commission > * Mark C. Weber, Vincent DePaul Professor of Law, DePaul > University College of Law > * Megan K. Whyte, Director, Fair Housing Project, Washington > Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs > >Documentation for CLE credits will be provided. > >Registration fee: $175 >Student registration fee: $25 > >To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship >opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit >https://nfb.org/law-symposium . You may also download from this Web >site a registration form to mail or fax. Hotel information is also >available on the symposium Web site. > >For additional information, contact: > >Lou Ann Blake, JD >Law Symposium Coordinator >Jernigan Institute >NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND >200 East Wells Street >at Jernigan Place >Baltimore, Maryland 21230 >Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221 >E-mail: lblake at nfb.org > > > >Lou Ann Blake, J.D. >Director of Outreach >Jernigan Institute >NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND >200 East Wells Street > at Jernigan Place >Baltimore, MD 21230 >Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2221 >Fax: (410) 659-5129 >E-mail: lblake at nfb.org >Web site: www.nfb.org > >Text the word BLIND to 85944 to donate $10 to the NFB Imagination >Fund via your phone bill. From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Apr 9 10:57:55 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:57:55 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Sam! First of all, welcome to the list! I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! We aren't some charity ccase for the state! I'm praying that you can get in this training center. The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Everyone, First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my life. There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all up to the person. I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less stressed about the future. At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn more. Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. Sam Video links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From kramc11 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 11:08:58 2013 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 07:08:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> Hi all, I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." Thanks, Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I > call > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as > an > option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults > ages > 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive > way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are > microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves > as > we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and > talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the > facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be > a > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > wants > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or > want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would > do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the > cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many > low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to > grow > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed > work, > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, > who > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very > knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have > guests > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill > out > a quick background check form for safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like > a > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my > life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm > really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by > medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on > one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's > all > up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to > be > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many > people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from > 18 > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss > this > other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 11:50:39 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 06:50:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> Message-ID: <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Hi Mark and everyone, Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for me. I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I hope to get to know you all better. Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Cadigan Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi all, I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." Thanks, Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place > I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind > adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are > optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we > can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and > talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to > the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably > wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone > who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a > caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This > could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't > have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would > would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a > roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security > reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid > homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for > volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident > is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss > issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd > like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in > particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable > about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They > can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a > background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the > person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for > safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is > like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a > lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the > first time in my life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > consider it home. It's all up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar > facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have > and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, > particularly for those from > 18 > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to > discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co > m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Apr 9 11:55:59 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:55:59 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395>, <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Maybe you need time to adjust, and hopefully, sometime down the road, you'll look into it. I won't force the issue further. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:50 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Mark and everyone, Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for me. I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I hope to get to know you all better. Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Cadigan Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi all, I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." Thanks, Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place > I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind > adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are > optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we > can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and > talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to > the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably > wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone > who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a > caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This > could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't > have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would > would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a > roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security > reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid > homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for > volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident > is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss > issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd > like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in > particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable > about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They > can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a > background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the > person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for > safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is > like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a > lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the > first time in my life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > consider it home. It's all up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar > facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have > and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, > particularly for those from > 18 > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to > discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co > m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From hope.paulos at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:19:08 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:19:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. Sincerely, Hope Paulos Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > Hi Mark and everyone, > Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that > Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind > students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found them > to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their websites > and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for me. > > I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my > knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a "charity > case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of > family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we get > from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. > Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in addition > to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that really > matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I believe > November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells on > that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a great > sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with > and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him > not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease > him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) > Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I > hope to get to know you all better. > Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi all, > > > > I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three > NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. Sam > is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This > solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option at > the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm > just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, > instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a > supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >> talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >> could be someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >> trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >> would do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling >> of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really > bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >> about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >> safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> first time in my life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> particularly for those from >> 18 >> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're >> in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >> m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From ALewis at nfb.org Tue Apr 9 12:22:38 2013 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:22:38 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Compassion Can Be Discrimination: Sign The Petition Against Subminimum Wages Message-ID: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D4966431B@CH1PRD0710MB380.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Compassion Can Be Discrimination: Sign The Petition Against Subminimum Wages http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/new-normal/compassion-can-be-discrimination-sign-petition-against-subminimum-wages Anil Lewis Most theological references to people with disabilities portray us as broken people in need of healing who are dependent on the benevolence of others. Also, most faith traditions have a moral imperative to seek salvation by caring for the less fortunate, and people with disabilities, being deemed less fortunate, are therefore tokens for that salvation. The false perception of brokenness, coupled with the misapplied moral edict, results in a "compassionate discrimination" that limits the potential of every person with a disability. Compassionate discrimination, like other types of discrimination, springs from ignorance, and deprives us all of the value each person and group of people has to offer. But unlike the abusive treatment of slaves resulting from racial discrimination, and unlike the chauvinistic treatment of women resulting from gender discrimination, compassionate discrimination is cloaked in sympathy and good intentions. The segregation of African-Americans in educational, employment, and living environments is unlawful and universally censured-no questions asked, no exceptions. Conversely, the segregation of people with disabilities in school, work, and home is justified as the creation of safe environments where we are nurtured and protected. The 20 to 30 percent wage disparity between male and female employees is considered a discriminatory practice in the workplace. But perversely, the disparity between an executive's $500,000 salary and the 22-cent-per-hour wage of the worker with a disability is considered reasonable. Work at such wages is even promoted as an opportunity for the disabled worker to experience the tangible and intangible benefits of work. Given this confused moral perspective, it is almost understandable why public policies have been developed that continues to limit people with disabilities from reaching our full potential. In 1938, policymakers, acting on a laudable desire to integrate people with disabilities into the workforce, made a huge mistake when they enacted Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/14c/. That provision that authorizes the U.S. Department of Labor to issue Special Wage Certificates to employers, permitting them to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. As a result of the erroneous belief, commonly held in 1938 but long since disproved, that people with disabilities cannot be productive employees, employers are permitted to pay workers with disabilities subminimum wages that are supposedly based on our productivity. This denial of fundamental wage protections to workers with disabilities, although masked as a compassionate offering of a work opportunity that would otherwise not be available, leaves over 300,000 people with disabilities employed at subminimum wages, some as low as three cents per hour. A person with a disability is not less valuable than any other person, and although employing that person may require the use of nontraditional training and employment strategies, a worker with a disability is not inherently less productive than a nondisabled worker. Section 14(c) is a poor public policy that perpetuates compassionate discrimination and harms people with disabilities by denying us proper education and training opportunities, and by prohibiting most of us from obtaining competitive, integrated employment. It is true that over 70 percent of people with disabilities are unemployed, but current segregated subminimum-wage work environments have proven that they are not the solution to this dilemma. We must understand that it is not the disability itself that causes this circumstance. It is the lack of understanding about the true capacity of people with disabilities that results in the misperception that we cannot be productive. Once this misperception has been embraced, it is difficult, if not impossible, for us to obtain real opportunities to demonstrate that we have that capacity. Rather than challenging the mistaken status quo, society's "compassionate" remedy is to continue to create "safe," segregated living, educational, and work environments for people with disabilities. In order to implement a real solution to the unemployment problem, we must remove the mask of compassion from the discrimination we face. We must eliminate the "separate but equal" environments and we must repeal the discriminatory policies that are founded on the flawed assertion of incapacity. We can achieve this goal. Congressman Gregg Harper has introduced the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act of 2013 (H.R. 831) to repeal Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act, and an online petition that you can sign to support the repeal of Section 14(c) can be found at https://www.nfb.org/fair-wages-petition. We are not broken. Our disabilities are neither a curse from God nor penance for our sins. They are a manifestation of the life with which God has blessed us, and although the vessels which contain them are different, we have the same needs, desires, and abilities as everyone else. People with disabilities are not passive recipients of benevolence, we are also benevolent. We clothe the naked, we feed the hungry, we care for the sick and we demonstrate the capacity to believe, to have faith, and to worship God. We demand to be fully participating members of society, and we refuse to be reduced to the status of tokens for the salvation of others. Anil Lewis was born in 1964 in Atlanta, Georgia. Lewis was diagnosed at age nine with retinitis pigmentosa, although his vision was fairly unaffected until 1989. He has a master's in business administration in computer information systems and a master's in public administration from Georgia State University. He has developed a job placement program for people with disabilities, represented people with disabilities in a law office and headed Georgia's chapter of the National Federation of the Blind https://nfb.org/. Today, he lives in Baltimore, Maryland and is the Director of Advocacy and Policy at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute. He works with the NFB's government affairs team to eliminate subminimum wages and the antiquated notion that blind and disabled people cannot be productive members of society. He is also the proud father of Amari, his bright, ambitious son. Mr. Anil Lewis Director of Advocacy and Policy "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" http://www.nfb.org/fairwages NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org twitter: @anillife From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 12:29:54 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 07:29:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000001ce351d$f0d68f40$d283adc0$@verizon.net> Hi Hope, Thanks for watching one of my videos! One of my friends from Maine and I sat down when I was looking for a place, and did call the Iris network. The woman we talked to, who honestly wasn't that friendly, did mention about some kind of subsidized housing, from vista housing. She said I'd have to qualify for the vista housing thing first, and then could receive the support services from the Iris network which seemed kind of separate from the vista thing. Like, she said that you'd be in the apartment by yourself, and then redcieve services maybe once or twice a week or something. At the time, I had also known about Friedman, and it just didn't sound the same. But I will look it up! Being able to eat in the dining room and things like that does sound like what happens here. Thanks so much for the info. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. Sincerely, Hope Paulos Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > Hi Mark and everyone, > Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers > that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list > of blind > students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found them > to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their websites > and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for me. > > I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my > knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a "charity > case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense > of family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as > we get from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. > Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in > addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how > that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved > here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But > no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, extremely > intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very motivated and > incouraging people to advocate with and for others with > disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that he has > CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease him that > he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for > your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I hope to get to know you all better. > Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. > Cadigan > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi all, > > > > I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the > three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to > tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that > works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam > it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and > can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of > Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and >> could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >> hanging out and talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with >> a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >> could be someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >> trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >> doesn't have or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >> would do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling >> of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >> really > bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >> about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all >> the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >> safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> first time in my life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> less stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> particularly for those from >> 18 >> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're >> in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.c >> o >> m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmai > l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Apr 9 12:39:57 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:39:57 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net>, Message-ID: I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. They have more NFB-centered views! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos [hope.paulos at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. Sincerely, Hope Paulos Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > Hi Mark and everyone, > Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that > Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind > students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found them > to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their websites > and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for me. > > I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my > knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a "charity > case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of > family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we get > from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. > Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in addition > to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that really > matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I believe > November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells on > that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a great > sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with > and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him > not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease > him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) > Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I > hope to get to know you all better. > Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi all, > > > > I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three > NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. Sam > is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This > solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option at > the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm > just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, > instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a > supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >> talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >> could be someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >> trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >> would do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling >> of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really > bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >> about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >> safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> first time in my life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> particularly for those from >> 18 >> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're >> in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >> m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From wmodnl at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:42:44 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:42:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Good morning, Can we agree that, some people who are blind have other disabilities. Whether or not they reveal them is irrelevant. Sadly, this is one factor that I have with this organization as a whole. Our philosophy does not consider people with other disabilities, including those with "hidden disabilities." This is my observation. I am not out to undermine the positive work done for blind people; as, a whole, we need to understand that no two people are the same, and no two people have the same life experiences. Of course, we have great centers; but, for some people for there personal choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; nor, does one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with a cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to the bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two of my friends feel safer using the service when ever they travel. This is due in part to anxiety issues, them being people who get easily disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > Hi Sam! > First of all, welcome to the list! > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an > option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages > 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive > way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are > microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as > we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the > facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the > cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many > low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very > knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out > a quick background check form for safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my > life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm > really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by > medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on > one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all > up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many > people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this > other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:44:08 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:44:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> Message-ID: I like your message. Mine is similar in nature. I think it further drives home this point. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:10 AM, "Mark J. Cadigan" wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call >> home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an >> option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this >> past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages >> 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, >> the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive >> way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available >> 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are >> microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as >> we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the >> facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not >> a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a >> good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want >> or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, >> and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants >> to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the >> cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, >> someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many >> low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their >> lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow >> from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, >> education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who >> they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and >> also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very >> knowledgable about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety >> reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests >> over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If >> they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out >> a quick background check form for safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a >> family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I >> feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my >> life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm >> really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by >> medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for >> six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on >> one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all >> up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here >> at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be >> opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many >> people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 >> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon >> things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this >> other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:49:48 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:49:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: They probably did not mention it since they are full. The wait-list is closed. That is a nice place, I have a few friends who live there. I agree that, from what I seen, you are treated with respect. In fact, many of the staff treat the residents as one of there own. The point is, the whole group-home mentality does not exist. Many including my friends will tell you, they function like a family. Good luck, have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Hope Paulos" wrote: > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. > Sincerely, > Hope Paulos > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that >> Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found them >> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their websites >> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for me. >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a "charity >> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of >> family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we get >> from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in addition >> to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that really >> matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I believe >> November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells on >> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a great >> sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with >> and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him >> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease >> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) >> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I >> hope to get to know you all better. >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Cadigan >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three >> NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. Sam >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This >> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option at >> the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm >> just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, >> instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a >> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >>> talking >>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>> could be someone who's >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>> trying >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >>> have or want >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>> would do >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling >>> of >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really >> bad neighborhoods. >>> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >>> about resources in the community. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >>> safety. >>> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >>> first time in my life. >>> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >>> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >>> stressed about the future. >>> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >>> more. >>> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>> particularly for those from >>> 18 >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're >>> in >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> Video links: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >>> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:46:48 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 07:46:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net>, Message-ID: Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to > cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. > They have more NFB-centered views! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert > Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called > iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for > individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with > shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and > people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A > full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services > are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine > mentioned this to you. > Sincerely, > Hope Paulos > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that >> Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found >> them >> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their >> websites >> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for >> me. >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >> "charity >> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of >> family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we >> get >> from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in addition >> to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that really >> matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I believe >> November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells >> on >> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a great >> sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate >> with >> and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about >> him >> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes >> tease >> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) >> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >> I >> hope to get to know you all better. >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >> Cadigan >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the three >> NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. >> Sam >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. This >> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option >> at >> the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so >> I'm >> just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the >> list, >> instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >> a >> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, >>> as >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >>> talking >>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>> could be someone who's >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>> trying >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >>> have or want >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>> would do >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling >>> of >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really >> bad neighborhoods. >>> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >>> about resources in the community. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >>> safety. >>> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >>> first time in my life. >>> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>> check. >>> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >>> stressed about the future. >>> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >>> more. >>> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>> particularly for those from >>> 18 >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're >>> in >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> Video links: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >>> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 13:03:19 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:03:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> Hi Gloria, I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to > cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. > They have more NFB-centered views! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility > called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize > housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance > is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and > mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in > their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. > Sincerely, > Hope Paulos > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >> of blind >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >> moment, it's just not for me. >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >> talents and personalitys. >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others with >> disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that he >> has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease him >> that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again >> Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >> I >> hope to get to know you all better. >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >> Cadigan >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. >> Sam >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >> called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, >>> as >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >>> talking >>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>> could be someone who's >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>> trying >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >>> have or want >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>> would do >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling >>> of >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really >> bad neighborhoods. >>> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >>> about resources in the community. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >>> safety. >>> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >>> first time in my life. >>> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>> check. >>> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >>> stressed about the future. >>> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >>> more. >>> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>> particularly for those from >>> 18 >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're >>> in >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> Video links: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >>> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 13:06:21 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:06:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000a01ce3523$08d4e2e0$1a7ea8a0$@verizon.net> Hi Lmad, (Sorry if y I spelled your name wrong!) It does sound nice. I'm glad your friends are happy there. Yes, that's exactly like it is here too, everyone gets treated with respect and there's such a sense of family. For example, the activity director teases me that I'm his adopted daughter. LOL! He's a little nuts but we love him anyway! Seriously, he's probably one of the most friendly energetic staff we have. A CAN from Africa says she's my "Friedman Mother." It's all very sweet. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:50 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago They probably did not mention it since they are full. The wait-list is closed. That is a nice place, I have a few friends who live there. I agree that, from what I seen, you are treated with respect. In fact, many of the staff treat the residents as one of there own. The point is, the whole group-home mentality does not exist. Many including my friends will tell you, they function like a family. Good luck, have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Hope Paulos" wrote: > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. > Sincerely, > Hope Paulos > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >> of blind >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found them >> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their websites >> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for me. >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a "charity >> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense >> of family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much >> as we get from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others >> with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that >> he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease >> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks >> again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I hope to get to know you all better. >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >> Cadigan >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >> tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that >> works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to >> Sam it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's >> situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to >> be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>> hanging out and talking >>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with >>> a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>> could be someone who's >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>> trying >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>> doesn't have or want >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>> would do >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling >>> of >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >>> really >> bad neighborhoods. >>> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what >>> they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very >>> knowledgable about resources in the community. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all >>> the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form >>> for safety. >>> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >>> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>> less stressed about the future. >>> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>> learn more. >>> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>> particularly for those from >>> 18 >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're >>> in >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> Video links: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail. >>> co >>> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >> zon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gma >> il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c > om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:30:21 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:30:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think > respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, > and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to >> cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert >> Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called >> iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for >> individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with >> shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A >> full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that >>> Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found >>> them >>> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their >>> websites >>> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity >>> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of >>> family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we >>> get >>> from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition >>> to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that >>> really >>> matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I >>> believe >>> November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great >>> sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate >>> with >>> and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about >>> him >>> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes >>> tease >>> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) >>> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three >>> NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option >>> at >>> the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so >>> I'm >>> just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the >>> list, >>> instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, >>>> as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >>>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >>>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >>>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >>>> talking >>>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >>>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >>>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>>> could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >>>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >>>> have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >>>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >>>> about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >>>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >>>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >>>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >>>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >>>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >>>> safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >>>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >>>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >>>> first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >>>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >>>> stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >>>> more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>>> particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >>>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >>>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 13:17:49 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:17:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000b01ce3524$a256b7d0$e7042770$@verizon.net> Hi again, (If you write your name at the bottom of your next e-mail I'll know how to spell it right) I totally agree with all of this. Especially about hidden disabilities like autism and mental illness. Sadly, even here at Friedman, that is one thing that is poorly understood and sometimes handled, how to work with both the needs around being blind and around other issues. I think more education needs to happen in both areas, as in in places like this to have more competency in helping those with say mental illness, and in the mental health and other disabilities fields around blindness. Because it's hard for the two to come together. Unfortunately , I had to be my own advocate in finding mental healthcare since moving to Chicago. Some places I went to or called about were reluctant to take me because I'm blind, trying to send me to a blindness organization because they saw on their website they provided counseling. They didn't understand this was counseling mostly on dealing with vision loss. So for my particular situation, this is the perfect place for me. I'm also originally from MA. I deal with anxiety too and choose to use The Ride, and paratransit in Chicago as well. Though with a friend here who has more sight than I do we do more walking than I've ever done to local places, and he has taken me on the bus. I didn't really like it and certainly wouldn't go alone. There are even areas of the transportation system, particularly underground, that he wouldn't choose to take me on even with him with me due to gangs and other scary things like that. One thing I would love to see happen is the creation of supportive living facilities for the blind and those with say, autism, mental illness or other types of issues at the same time. It would be so great to have integrated care for everything, and a community of peers and staff that was compassionate and understanding towards one another on the variety of issues people face. I think that's slowly happening at Friedman (maybe a little bit because I can't keep my mouth shut about trying to advocate for the views of those with mental illness LOL!), but I know things can get much better and I feel will someday. Again LM, thanks for your thoughtful reply! Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:43 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Good morning, Can we agree that, some people who are blind have other disabilities. Whether or not they reveal them is irrelevant. Sadly, this is one factor that I have with this organization as a whole. Our philosophy does not consider people with other disabilities, including those with "hidden disabilities." This is my observation. I am not out to undermine the positive work done for blind people; as, a whole, we need to understand that no two people are the same, and no two people have the same life experiences. Of course, we have great centers; but, for some people for there personal choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; nor, does one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with a cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to the bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two of my friends feel safer using the service when ever they travel. This is due in part to anxiety issues, them being people who get easily disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > Hi Sam! > First of all, welcome to the list! > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson > [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place > I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind > adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are > optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we > can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to > the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably > wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone > who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a > caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a > roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security > reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid > homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for > volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident > is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss > issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd > like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in > particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They > can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a > background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the > person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is > like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a > lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the > first time in my life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > consider it home. It's all up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar > facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have > and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, > particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to > discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c > om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 13:50:09 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 09:50:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> Sam, that sounds like a good situation for you. It appears as if you have a good group of staff and residence to call family. I'm happy you're happy; how about that...! (Grin). -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think > respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, > and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to >> cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert >> Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called >> iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for >> individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with >> shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A >> full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that >>> Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found >>> them >>> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their >>> websites >>> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity >>> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of >>> family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we >>> get >>> from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition >>> to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that >>> really >>> matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I >>> believe >>> November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great >>> sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate >>> with >>> and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about >>> him >>> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes >>> tease >>> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) >>> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three >>> NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option >>> at >>> the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so >>> I'm >>> just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the >>> list, >>> instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, >>>> as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >>>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >>>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >>>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >>>> talking >>>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >>>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >>>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>>> could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >>>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >>>> have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >>>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >>>> about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >>>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >>>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >>>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >>>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >>>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >>>> safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >>>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >>>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >>>> first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >>>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >>>> stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >>>> more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>>> particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >>>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >>>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co m >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From hope.paulos at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:48:55 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS Message-ID: Hi! I wanted to ask a question regarding what GPS products people use when navigating their campuses and surrounding area. I am going to be a resident assistant this summer, and a campus where I'm not familiar with the surroundings. I was thinking GPS might be able to assist me. I know that their applications on the iPhone but I would prefer something like the trekker breeze or the captain mobility GPS solution. Is anyone used either of these products? Feel free to write me off list, if you would prefer. Thank you! Hope Sent from my iPhone From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 13:54:34 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:54:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> Hi Justin, I'm happy I'm happy too LOL! Thank you! So where are you from? Are you in school? I went to Lesley university and got my BS in counseling psychology. What do you like to do for fun? I like singing, reading, making youtube videos and just hanging out. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 8:50 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, that sounds like a good situation for you. It appears as if you have a good group of staff and residence to call family. I'm happy you're happy; how about that...! (Grin). -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >> to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >> facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >> subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. >> Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be >> orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. >> A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation >> services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from >> Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >>> of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >>> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >>> moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >>> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>> talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to >>> advocate with and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks >>> in my mind, about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. >>> (though I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those >>> service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And >>> everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >>> tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >>> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >>> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >>> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >>> called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >>>> me, as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services >>>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond >>>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities >>>> provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >>>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >>>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman >>>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community >>>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support >>>> from staff. This could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>>> doesn't have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >>>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments >>>> are in really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city >>>> for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each >>>> resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly >>>> to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking >>>> about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >>>> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >>>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, >>>> all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check >>>> form for safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> learn more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for >>>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research >>>> I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is >>>> there, particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail >>>> .co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co m >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 13:55:19 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:55:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000401ce3529$e03a6e20$a0af4a60$@verizon.net> Hi Mary, Nice to meet you. Thanks for your thoughtful message. You're welcome for the resource! They're often hard to find. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 8:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. > What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >> to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >> facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >> subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. >> Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be >> orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. >> A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation >> services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from >> Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >>> of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >>> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >>> moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >>> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>> talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to >>> advocate with and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks >>> in my mind, about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. >>> (though I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those >>> service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And >>> everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >>> tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >>> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >>> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >>> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >>> called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >>>> me, as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services >>>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond >>>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities >>>> provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >>>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >>>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman >>>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community >>>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support >>>> from staff. This could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>>> doesn't have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >>>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments >>>> are in really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city >>>> for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each >>>> resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly >>>> to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking >>>> about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >>>> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >>>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, >>>> all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check >>>> form for safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> learn more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for >>>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research >>>> I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is >>>> there, particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail >>>> .co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40ver >>> izon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gm >>> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pcc >> ua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40g >> mail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmai > l.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:57:29 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:57:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final projects, papers, research hints Message-ID: Hi all, In the last two days, it has become obvious that college final projects and exams are approaching! I am starting this thread as a way for college students, grad students and graduates share some hints on how to manage finals and everything they entail. Below are some ways I learned to survive this challenging time. 1. Everyone has a research paper due soon. There has been a lot of chatter regarding best ways to do research. First, your university has a library with extremely knowledgeable librarians! In many colleges there are librarians that specialize in particular areas, e.g. science, literature etc. So, when you are stuck, this should be one of the first places you explore. They will tell you about resources that you might not even be aware of. Along with that, get very familiar with your school libraries website. There should be links to the databases your school subscribes to. When starting a research paper, professors will often have different views on how they let students choose topics. While some want sources and thesis statements well ahead of times, others simply say turn in a paper about something we talked in class. Regardless of the professor, one should always start with the broader idea. For instance, if I want to write a comp lit paper on nineteenth century British literature, I'd probably start with doing a Google scholar search. Google Scholar is better than just running a Google search, because the summaries that come up are from "academic" peer reviewed sources. So you never have to worry about whether a source will be credible or not. Then, as you get a better idea of the options available, you start narrowing down until you come up with a specific topic. While this is not by far, the only method of doing this type of research, it has always served me well, because the worst thing to find out the week before your paper is due is that there isn't enough literature out there. Finally, some databases that I like for social science research are: JSTOR (which has older studies), and PsychInfo, (which is a sub database of EBSCO). Remember to talk to your librarian and get familiar with the library website, since sometimes they are nice enough to allow you to search database by subject. So, if you need articles on history, it will show you the databases which are history specific. 2. Tutoring and study help. There have been some questions about searching for guidance and direction with specific papers and with specific books. All colleges have some sort of tutoring program. Many have a writing/composition specific department. You get paired with a student who has taken the class, and who can help you understand the material. For big papers I always took it to the writing center at my college, since when you live with a paper for so long, there are little mistakes that you don't catch. If you need help understanding a specific book, and getting ideas as to how to read more effectively, go to your tutor! 3. Presentations. Ok, so my favorite Microsoft program has made an appearance, PowerPoint. I will confess, all I know how to do in PowerPoint is read slide shows. Seriously, that's it. But I am a college graduate, and even made research posters which are based on PowerPoint before you can print them. Here is the way I did it. First, you do your research. Once you have the basis of your presentation, you start making your presentation. Remember that Powerpoints are visual aids, they are not supposed to be your full presentation. They aren't supposed to have long texts on everything you want to say. They simply underline what you think is important, and if you have time you can even make them pretty. For my presentations, I would do a Word documents, in which I'd do a list, with the slide number and the content I wanted in that slide. For instance, Slide 1 Mary Fernandez The Life of T.S. Elliott. Slide 2 Picture of Elliott as a young man Slide 3. Thomas Sterns Elliott was born in such and such date. You get the idea. Once I had my slide content perfected I'd do one of two \ things. I'd either go to my Library's IT center, whose sole purpose was to aid students with any technological presentations, and digital learning. And I'd show them my slides, and would tell them exactly how I wanted the powerpoint to look. All they did was point and click, and copy and paste. For pictures, we'd go on Google images, and I'd tell them, the exact idea of what I wanted. They'd tell me the options and then I'd choose which one I wanted. The second method was to buy one of my roommates lunch in exchange for their powerpoint skills. You can also do this with readers. However, if you are choosing to do this, please be considerate of your friends' time, and be aware they are incredibly loaded with work too. Finally, on presentation day, I'd have my personal notes, as well as my original outline of what was on each slide, so I always knew what my peers were looking at. I encourage everyone to learn to use Powerpoint, I will soon! But this is a work around until this summer when you will all be Powerpoint experts. Sorry this went on for so long. Hope it helps! Sincerely, -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:10:24 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:10:24 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Sam, Welcome to the list. The information you shared is interesting. I'm glad it is working out for you. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think > respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, > and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to >> cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert >> Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called >> iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for >> individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with >> shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A >> full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that >>> Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found >>> them >>> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their >>> websites >>> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity >>> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of >>> family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we >>> get >>> from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition >>> to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that >>> really >>> matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I >>> believe >>> November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great >>> sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate >>> with >>> and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about >>> him >>> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes >>> tease >>> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) >>> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three >>> NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option >>> at >>> the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so >>> I'm >>> just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the >>> list, >>> instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, >>>> as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >>>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >>>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >>>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >>>> talking >>>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >>>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >>>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>>> could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >>>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >>>> have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >>>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >>>> about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >>>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >>>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >>>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >>>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >>>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >>>> safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >>>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >>>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >>>> first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >>>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >>>> stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >>>> more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>>> particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >>>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >>>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co m >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From hope.paulos at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:17:54 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:17:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final projects, papers, research hints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DD7C5BB-46FA-4CDA-894E-EE5D34A3AE9A@gmail.com> Hi there! Does Google scholar have its own website, or do we just put the eword Google scholar before our search terms? Thanks! Hope Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Hi all, > In the last two days, it has become obvious that college final > projects and exams are approaching! I am starting this thread as a way > for college students, grad students and graduates share some hints on > how to manage finals and everything they entail. Below are some ways I > learned to survive this challenging time. > 1. Everyone has a research paper due soon. There has been a lot of > chatter regarding best ways to do research. First, your university > has a library with extremely knowledgeable librarians! In many > colleges there are librarians that specialize in particular areas, > e.g. science, literature etc. So, when you are stuck, this should be > one of the first places you explore. They will tell you about > resources that you might not even be aware of. Along with that, get > very familiar with your school libraries website. There should be > links to the databases your school subscribes to. > When starting a research paper, professors will often have different > views on how they let students choose topics. While some want sources > and thesis statements well ahead of times, others simply say turn in a > paper about something we talked in class. Regardless of the professor, > one should always start with the broader idea. For instance, if I want > to write a comp lit paper on nineteenth century British literature, > I'd probably start with doing a Google scholar search. Google Scholar > is better than just running a Google search, because the summaries > that come up are from "academic" peer reviewed sources. So you never > have to worry about whether a source will be credible or not. > Then, as you get a better idea of the options available, you start > narrowing down until you come up with a specific topic. While this is > not by far, the only method of doing this type of research, it has > always served me well, because the worst thing to find out the week > before your paper is due is that there isn't enough literature out > there. > > Finally, some databases that I like for social science research are: > JSTOR (which has older studies), and PsychInfo, (which is a sub > database of EBSCO). > Remember to talk to your librarian and get familiar with the library > website, since sometimes they are nice enough to allow you to search > database by subject. So, if you need articles on history, it will show > you the databases which are history specific. > 2. Tutoring and study help. There have been some questions about > searching for guidance and direction with specific papers and with > specific books. > All colleges have some sort of tutoring program. Many have a > writing/composition specific department. You get paired with a student > who has taken the class, and who can help you understand the material. > For big papers I always took it to the writing center at my college, > since when you live with a paper for so long, there are little > mistakes that you don't catch. If you need help understanding a > specific book, and getting ideas as to how to read more effectively, > go to your tutor! > 3. Presentations. > Ok, so my favorite Microsoft program has made an appearance, > PowerPoint. I will confess, all I know how to do in PowerPoint is read > slide shows. Seriously, that's it. But I am a college graduate, and > even made research posters which are based on PowerPoint before you > can print them. Here is the way I did it. > First, you do your research. Once you have the basis of your > presentation, you start making your presentation. Remember that > Powerpoints are visual aids, they are not supposed to be your full > presentation. They aren't supposed to have long texts on everything > you want to say. They simply underline what you think is important, > and if you have time you can even make them pretty. > For my presentations, I would do a Word documents, in which I'd do a > list, with the slide number and the content I wanted in that slide. > For instance, > Slide 1 > Mary Fernandez > The Life of T.S. Elliott. > Slide 2 > Picture of Elliott as a young man > Slide 3. > Thomas Sterns Elliott was born in such and such date. > You get the idea. Once I had my slide content perfected I'd do one of > two \ things. I'd either go to my Library's IT center, whose sole > purpose was to aid students with any technological presentations, and > digital learning. And I'd show them my slides, and would tell them > exactly how I wanted the powerpoint to look. All they did was point > and click, and copy and paste. For pictures, we'd go on Google images, > and I'd tell them, the exact idea of what I wanted. They'd tell me the > options and then I'd choose which one I wanted. > The second method was to buy one of my roommates lunch in exchange for > their powerpoint skills. You can also do this with readers. However, > if you are choosing to do this, please be considerate of your friends' > time, and be aware they are incredibly loaded with work too. > Finally, on presentation day, I'd have my personal notes, as well as > my original outline of what was on each slide, so I always knew what > my peers were looking at. > I encourage everyone to learn to use Powerpoint, I will soon! But this > is a work around until this summer when you will all be Powerpoint > experts. > Sorry this went on for so long. Hope it helps! > Sincerely, > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > — > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:20:59 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:20:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final projects, papers, research hints In-Reply-To: <0DD7C5BB-46FA-4CDA-894E-EE5D34A3AE9A@gmail.com> References: <0DD7C5BB-46FA-4CDA-894E-EE5D34A3AE9A@gmail.com> Message-ID: scholar.google.com Or, just type google scholar on google and it comes right up. Scholar also has different ways of filtering results. So you can choose whether the search results include books, or just articles, and so on. Thanks. Mary On 4/9/13, Hope Paulos wrote: > Hi there! Does Google scholar have its own website, or do we just put the > eword Google scholar before our search terms? > Thanks! > Hope > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > >> Hi all, >> In the last two days, it has become obvious that college final >> projects and exams are approaching! I am starting this thread as a way >> for college students, grad students and graduates share some hints on >> how to manage finals and everything they entail. Below are some ways I >> learned to survive this challenging time. >> 1. Everyone has a research paper due soon. There has been a lot of >> chatter regarding best ways to do research. First, your university >> has a library with extremely knowledgeable librarians! In many >> colleges there are librarians that specialize in particular areas, >> e.g. science, literature etc. So, when you are stuck, this should be >> one of the first places you explore. They will tell you about >> resources that you might not even be aware of. Along with that, get >> very familiar with your school libraries website. There should be >> links to the databases your school subscribes to. >> When starting a research paper, professors will often have different >> views on how they let students choose topics. While some want sources >> and thesis statements well ahead of times, others simply say turn in a >> paper about something we talked in class. Regardless of the professor, >> one should always start with the broader idea. For instance, if I want >> to write a comp lit paper on nineteenth century British literature, >> I'd probably start with doing a Google scholar search. Google Scholar >> is better than just running a Google search, because the summaries >> that come up are from "academic" peer reviewed sources. So you never >> have to worry about whether a source will be credible or not. >> Then, as you get a better idea of the options available, you start >> narrowing down until you come up with a specific topic. While this is >> not by far, the only method of doing this type of research, it has >> always served me well, because the worst thing to find out the week >> before your paper is due is that there isn't enough literature out >> there. >> >> Finally, some databases that I like for social science research are: >> JSTOR (which has older studies), and PsychInfo, (which is a sub >> database of EBSCO). >> Remember to talk to your librarian and get familiar with the library >> website, since sometimes they are nice enough to allow you to search >> database by subject. So, if you need articles on history, it will show >> you the databases which are history specific. >> 2. Tutoring and study help. There have been some questions about >> searching for guidance and direction with specific papers and with >> specific books. >> All colleges have some sort of tutoring program. Many have a >> writing/composition specific department. You get paired with a student >> who has taken the class, and who can help you understand the material. >> For big papers I always took it to the writing center at my college, >> since when you live with a paper for so long, there are little >> mistakes that you don't catch. If you need help understanding a >> specific book, and getting ideas as to how to read more effectively, >> go to your tutor! >> 3. Presentations. >> Ok, so my favorite Microsoft program has made an appearance, >> PowerPoint. I will confess, all I know how to do in PowerPoint is read >> slide shows. Seriously, that's it. But I am a college graduate, and >> even made research posters which are based on PowerPoint before you >> can print them. Here is the way I did it. >> First, you do your research. Once you have the basis of your >> presentation, you start making your presentation. Remember that >> Powerpoints are visual aids, they are not supposed to be your full >> presentation. They aren't supposed to have long texts on everything >> you want to say. They simply underline what you think is important, >> and if you have time you can even make them pretty. >> For my presentations, I would do a Word documents, in which I'd do a >> list, with the slide number and the content I wanted in that slide. >> For instance, >> Slide 1 >> Mary Fernandez >> The Life of T.S. Elliott. >> Slide 2 >> Picture of Elliott as a young man >> Slide 3. >> Thomas Sterns Elliott was born in such and such date. >> You get the idea. Once I had my slide content perfected I'd do one of >> two \ things. I'd either go to my Library's IT center, whose sole >> purpose was to aid students with any technological presentations, and >> digital learning. And I'd show them my slides, and would tell them >> exactly how I wanted the powerpoint to look. All they did was point >> and click, and copy and paste. For pictures, we'd go on Google images, >> and I'd tell them, the exact idea of what I wanted. They'd tell me the >> options and then I'd choose which one I wanted. >> The second method was to buy one of my roommates lunch in exchange for >> their powerpoint skills. You can also do this with readers. However, >> if you are choosing to do this, please be considerate of your friends' >> time, and be aware they are incredibly loaded with work too. >> Finally, on presentation day, I'd have my personal notes, as well as >> my original outline of what was on each slide, so I always knew what >> my peers were looking at. >> I encourage everyone to learn to use Powerpoint, I will soon! But this >> is a work around until this summer when you will all be Powerpoint >> experts. >> Sorry this went on for so long. Hope it helps! >> Sincerely, >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >> feel." >> — >> Maya Angelou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 14:20:46 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 09:20:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000601ce352d$6e7058a0$4b5109e0$@verizon.net> Hi Rania, Thanks so much for the welcome! I'm glad it's working out for me too. It says LMT after your name. Are you a massage therapist? I've done trager movement therapy as a part of working with a psychotherapist I had and it was very relaxing and helpful. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail LMT Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 8:10 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Sam, Welcome to the list. The information you shared is interesting. I'm glad it is working out for you. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >> to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >> facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >> subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. >> Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be >> orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. >> A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation >> services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from >> Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >>> of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >>> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >>> moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >>> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>> talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to >>> advocate with and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks >>> in my mind, about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. >>> (though I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those >>> service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And >>> everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >>> tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >>> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >>> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >>> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >>> called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >>>> me, as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services >>>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond >>>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities >>>> provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >>>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >>>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman >>>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community >>>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support >>>> from staff. This could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>>> doesn't have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >>>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments >>>> are in really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city >>>> for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each >>>> resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly >>>> to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking >>>> about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >>>> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >>>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, >>>> all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check >>>> form for safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> learn more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for >>>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research >>>> I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is >>>> there, particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail >>>> .co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co m >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Apr 9 14:21:46 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:21:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Bookshare New Books Filter Message-ID: <000701ce352d$916fd970$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good morning everyone, Those of you who are bookshare.org subscribers have probably seen the rash of information posted from the International Monitary Fund over the past few weeks if you do a search for new books. This is great information and research material for those studying finance, business, commerce, international trade, etc but for others such as Mary and I it's getting old very fast seeing this junk day-after day. I'm glad that bookshare.org is including this material for those interested in reading it but for such a large volume of such publications to show up on a new books search over a period of weeks it gets old fast. Both of us have written to bookshare.org concerning this issue and have suggested that a way to prioritize new books entries when they're posted so material of interest appears at the top of the list of new books and material such as this stuff from the IMF appears near the bottom and subscribers will be less likely to encounter it when searching for new books and other material. Right now they're having a "Run" on material from the International Monetary Fund. If they're going to post large quantities of material from a particular entity that may not be of interest to particular subscribers a way needs to be available for patrons to manage new book listings and to screen out entries not of interest to them. I'm wondering if others are also feeling this frustration and have written to bookshare.org urging them to address this issue before it gets out of hand! Here's hoping that a fix for this situation will be announced at the national convention and we won't have to put up with it in the future. All the best. Peter Donahue “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” Isaiah 54:17 “While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery brought to day.” Anonymous From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:30:38 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 10:30:38 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000601ce352d$6e7058a0$4b5109e0$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000601ce352d$6e7058a0$4b5109e0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Yes I am. I'm surprised you figured that out pretty quickly! I'm so used to people asking what LMT means. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sam Nelson Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 11:21 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place,a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Rania, Thanks so much for the welcome! I'm glad it's working out for me too. It says LMT after your name. Are you a massage therapist? I've done trager movement therapy as a part of working with a psychotherapist I had and it was very relaxing and helpful. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail LMT Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 8:10 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Sam, Welcome to the list. The information you shared is interesting. I'm glad it is working out for you. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >> to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >> facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >> subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. >> Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be >> orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. >> A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation >> services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from >> Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >>> of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >>> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >>> moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >>> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>> talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to >>> advocate with and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks >>> in my mind, about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. >>> (though I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those >>> service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And >>> everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >>> tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >>> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >>> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >>> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >>> called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >>>> me, as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services >>>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond >>>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities >>>> provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >>>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >>>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman >>>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community >>>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support >>>> from staff. This could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>>> doesn't have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >>>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments >>>> are in really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city >>>> for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each >>>> resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly >>>> to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking >>>> about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >>>> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >>>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, >>>> all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check >>>> form for safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> learn more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for >>>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research >>>> I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is >>>> there, particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail >>>> .co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co m >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From sgermano at asu.edu Tue Apr 9 15:22:59 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:22:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others based on how independent they were at home and how their parents encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition things like sewing... Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. Suzanne On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Gloria, > I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! > Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think > respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, > and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to > > cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. > > They have more NFB-centered views! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos > > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount > > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility > > called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize > > housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance > > is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and > > mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in > > their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. > > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm > > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. > > Sincerely, > > Hope Paulos > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > > > >> Hi Mark and everyone, > >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers > >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list > >> of blind > >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have > >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked > >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this > >> moment, it's just not for me. > >> > >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my > >> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a > >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a > >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the > >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills > >> talents and personalitys. > >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in > >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see > >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, > >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has > >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, > >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very > >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others with > >> disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that he > >> has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease him > >> that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again > >> Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. > >> I > >> hope to get to know you all better. > >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. > >> Cadigan > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at > >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in > >> Chicago > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the > >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to > tell > us. > >> Sam > >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. > >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best > >> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak > >> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and > >> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so > >> called "independent enough." > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Sam Nelson" > >> To: > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > >> > >> > >>> Hi Everyone, > >>> > >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, > >>> as > >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. > I > >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place > >>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > >>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > >>> > >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > >>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind > >>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > >>> > >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > >>> > >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are > >>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we > >>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > >>> > >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > >>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and > >>> talking > >>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: > bingo, > >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > >>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to > >>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > >>> > >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > >>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably > >>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone > >>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a > >>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This > >>> could be someone who's > >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > >>> trying > >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > >>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't > >>> have or want > >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could > be > >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would > >>> would do > >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a > feeling > >>> of > >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through > >>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a > >>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security > >>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really > >> bad neighborhoods. > >>> > >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > >>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid > >>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for > >>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident > >>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss > >>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd > >>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in > >>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable > >>> about resources in the community. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > >>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > >>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They > >>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a > >>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the > >>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for > >>> safety. > >>> > >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is > >>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a > >>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the > >>> first time in my life. > >>> > >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, > >>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is > >>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security > >>> check. > >>> > >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > >>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. > >>> > >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > >>> stressed about the future. > >>> > >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > >>> more. > >>> > >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > >>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar > >>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have > >>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, > >>> particularly for those from > >>> 18 > >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if > you're > >>> in > >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > >>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to > >>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > >>> > >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sam > >>> > >>> Video links: > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co > >>> m > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:36:42 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:36:42 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1318D1CA21714C70BAB73764612BC12E@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, The Best GPS I've ever used is actually the GPS on the Braille Plus 18 by APH. It is Android based and has the resources of a mainstream GPS like finding bus stops, while being completely accessible. It is also small enough to fit in your hoody pocket. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS Hi! I wanted to ask a question regarding what GPS products people use when navigating their campuses and surrounding area. I am going to be a resident assistant this summer, and a campus where I'm not familiar with the surroundings. I was thinking GPS might be able to assist me. I know that their applications on the iPhone but I would prefer something like the trekker breeze or the captain mobility GPS solution. Is anyone used either of these products? Feel free to write me off list, if you would prefer. Thank you! Hope Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:06:01 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:06:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS In-Reply-To: <1318D1CA21714C70BAB73764612BC12E@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <1318D1CA21714C70BAB73764612BC12E@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Hope, I've had some experience with the Trekker Breeze, and I think that, under the circumstances, it can work well. However, depending on your campus, you may run into a unique problem. My college campus is quite nice with lots of tall trees. Unfortunately, said trees could quite literally block the satellite signal. So, I used a GPS when I was learning my campus, but it really wasn't practical on a day-to-day basis. I found it much better to memorize the campus, starting with the areas I would need first and working from there. While I don't know your school or its campus, you may run into this problem as well. I haven't actually done anything with the BrailleNote GPS, but it seems like a versatile tool. That might be another option if you want to go the GPS route.I hope this was somewhat helpful. Patrick On 4/9/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > The Best GPS I've ever used is actually the GPS on the Braille Plus 18 by > APH. It is Android based and has the resources of a mainstream GPS like > finding bus stops, while being completely accessible. It is also small > enough to fit in your hoody pocket. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Hope Paulos > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:48 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS > > Hi! I wanted to ask a question regarding what GPS products people use when > navigating their campuses and surrounding area. I am going to be a resident > > assistant this summer, and a campus where I'm not familiar with the > surroundings. I was thinking GPS might be able to assist me. I know that > their applications on the iPhone but I would prefer something like the > trekker breeze or the captain mobility GPS solution. Is anyone used either > of these products? Feel free to write me off list, if you would prefer. > Thank you! > Hope > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:06:05 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:06:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Sam, thank you for sharing your experience. Its whatever works for you. that is the philosophy that I bide by. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:43 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Everyone, First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my life. There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all up to the person. I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less stressed about the future. At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn more. Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. Sam Video links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:15:22 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:15:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Sam! Welcome to the list! I am cindy, the secretary of NABS, and I also have a degree in psychology. I have switched to human computer interaction, but I still use psychology every day. My local chapter of the NFB that I went to in my home town of Asheville, NC met at a similar center however it is pan disability. We have several active members of that chapter who live and thrive in that environment. My only comment is at this facility, tenets lose all but $60 of their SSI or SSDI. The center is not on any public transit routes either. So I feel like although many of our chapter members have ambitions to find employment, that tiny amount of spending money they get combined with the lack of public transportation really makes their job hunt almost impossible. They can't afford to update their wardrobe for interviews or obtain the latest technology or go to networking events among other important job-seeking strategies. But I know that Chicago has awesome transportation! If you are interested in connecting with the NFB on more of a personal level, there are local chapters all over the country. I, and many of us on this list, know the president of the NFB of Illinois personally, and I would be happy to connect you with her if you would like to learn about Illinois's local chapters and student division if that would be an interest of yours. They have their state convention in October, and that would be an excellent way to meet all kinds of blind people doing all kinds of wonderful things professionally and in their local communities. I am glad that you have found something that works for you! It sounds like you really respect others and that you recognize the vibrance and diversity that exists within Friedman Place itself. So good luck in taking those skills and experiences of working with and befriending those people into your future psychology career! Also, I know that a couple of people have aluded to the NFB training centers in this thread. It sounds like you have investigated them. But I or any other training center graduate would be happy to share our personal experiences if you decide that you are interested in learning more. Cindy On 4/9/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or somewhere > in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San Diego City School > District offered summer school called daily living skills for blind and > visually impaired. I started going when I was in first grade. My regular > school year was mainstream. Anyway, the program taught cooking we each went > to the store, bought the items needed and then cooked whatever recipe it > was that week. We were also taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a > variety of other things to be independent. Some children needed to be > taught more than others based on how independent they were at home and how > their parents encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field > trips to be exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and > took the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition > things like sewing... > > Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at home > became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. > > this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. > > Suzanne > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> Hi Gloria, >> I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! >> Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. >> What >> works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think >> respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, >> and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >> > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to >> > cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> > They have more NFB-centered views! >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> > >> > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility >> > called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize >> > housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance >> > is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and >> > mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in >> > their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. >> > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm >> > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. >> > Sincerely, >> > Hope Paulos >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >> >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >> >> of blind >> >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >> >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >> >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >> >> moment, it's just not for me. >> >> >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >> >> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >> >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >> >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >> >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >> >> talents and personalitys. >> >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >> >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >> >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >> >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >> >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, >> >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very >> >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others with >> >> disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that he >> >> has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease him >> >> that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again >> >> Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >> >> I >> >> hope to get to know you all better. >> >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >> >> Cadigan >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> >> Chicago >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >> >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >> tell >> us. >> >> Sam >> >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >> >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >> >> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >> >> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >> >> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >> >> called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >> >>> >> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >> >>> me, >> >>> as >> >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing >> >>> lists. >> I >> >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> >>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and >> >>> could >> >>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >>> >> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> >>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> >>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >>> >> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >>> >> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> >>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> >>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >>> >> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> >>> medication >> >>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >> >>> talking >> >>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >> bingo, >> >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> >>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> >>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >>> >> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >> >>> is >> >>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> >>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> >>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with >> >>> a >> >>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >> >>> could be someone who's >> >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >> >>> trying >> >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> >>> just >> >>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> >>> have or want >> >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> be >> >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >> >>> would do >> >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> feeling >> >>> of >> >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> >>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> >>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> >>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >> >>> really >> >> bad neighborhoods. >> >>> >> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> >>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> >>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> >>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> >>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> >>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> >>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> >>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >> >>> about resources in the community. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >> >>> or >> >>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >> >>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >> >>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >> >>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >> >>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >> >>> safety. >> >>> >> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> >>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> >>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> >>> first time in my life. >> >>> >> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> >>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> >>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >> >>> check. >> >>> >> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> >>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >>> >> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> >>> less >> >>> stressed about the future. >> >>> >> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> >>> more. >> >>> >> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> >>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> >>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> >>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> >>> particularly for those from >> >>> 18 >> >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the >> >>> age >> >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> you're >> >>> in >> >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> >>> maybe >> >>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> >>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of >> >>> you. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Sam >> >>> >> >>> Video links: >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >> >>> m >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:18:10 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:18:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Sam, I found what you said about caring for those who have multiple disabilities in addition to blindness, especially the hidden ones, really interesting. I'm studying music therapy in college right now and we cover some of these topics, so what you said really lined up well with what I've learned so far. Each disability brings about different psychological, social, physical, mental, emotional, and behavioral issues. As we know, blindness doesn't have to be limitting in and of itself, but some of the other factors like psychological effects can have more of an impact on some people than others. No two blind people, not even if they are identical twins, will think, act, and feel about their blindness in the exact same way. This is the same for those with hidden disabilities as well. One music therapist who spoke to my class said of people with autism, "If you've met one person with autism you've only met one person with autism." She meant that no two cases of autism will be the same and each person who has it will deal with it slightly differently. So, each disability has tons of possibilities in symptoms. When you have two disabilities coexisting it's even more complicated and takes a little more consideration and tact to propperly manage them. Spinning off a little on your mental health example, there are people specifically trained to work with people who have co-occuring illnesses, meaning a mental illness and an addiction at the same time. I wonder why this has been limitted to just mental illness and addiction. AFter all, some people with all types of disabilities and other coexisting conditions experience psychological and other isses two. I wonder why there aren't specialists to work with people with multiple disabilities or a disability with a mental illness. From what I've heard, people with both often have to have multiple people work with them who each focus on only one part of the issues the person is facing. Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just found what you said to be really interesting. On 4/9/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or somewhere > in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San Diego City School > District offered summer school called daily living skills for blind and > visually impaired. I started going when I was in first grade. My regular > school year was mainstream. Anyway, the program taught cooking we each went > to the store, bought the items needed and then cooked whatever recipe it > was that week. We were also taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a > variety of other things to be independent. Some children needed to be > taught more than others based on how independent they were at home and how > their parents encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field > trips to be exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and > took the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition > things like sewing... > > Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at home > became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. > > this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. > > Suzanne > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> Hi Gloria, >> I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! >> Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. >> What >> works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think >> respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, >> and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >> > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to >> > cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> > They have more NFB-centered views! >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> > >> > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility >> > called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize >> > housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance >> > is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and >> > mobility services, and people can eat either in the dining room or in >> > their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. >> > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm >> > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. >> > Sincerely, >> > Hope Paulos >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >> >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >> >> of blind >> >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >> >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >> >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >> >> moment, it's just not for me. >> >> >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >> >> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >> >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >> >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >> >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >> >> talents and personalitys. >> >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >> >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >> >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >> >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >> >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, >> >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very >> >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others with >> >> disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that he >> >> has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease him >> >> that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again >> >> Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >> >> I >> >> hope to get to know you all better. >> >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >> >> Cadigan >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> >> Chicago >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >> >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >> tell >> us. >> >> Sam >> >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >> >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >> >> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >> >> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >> >> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >> >> called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >> >>> >> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >> >>> me, >> >>> as >> >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing >> >>> lists. >> I >> >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> >>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and >> >>> could >> >>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >>> >> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> >>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> >>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >>> >> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >>> >> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> >>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> >>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >>> >> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> >>> medication >> >>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >> >>> talking >> >>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >> bingo, >> >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> >>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> >>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >>> >> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >> >>> is >> >>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> >>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> >>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with >> >>> a >> >>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >> >>> could be someone who's >> >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >> >>> trying >> >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> >>> just >> >>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> >>> have or want >> >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> be >> >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >> >>> would do >> >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> feeling >> >>> of >> >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> >>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> >>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> >>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >> >>> really >> >> bad neighborhoods. >> >>> >> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> >>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> >>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> >>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> >>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> >>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> >>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> >>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >> >>> about resources in the community. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >> >>> or >> >>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >> >>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >> >>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >> >>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >> >>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >> >>> safety. >> >>> >> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> >>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> >>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> >>> first time in my life. >> >>> >> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> >>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> >>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >> >>> check. >> >>> >> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> >>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >>> >> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> >>> less >> >>> stressed about the future. >> >>> >> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> >>> more. >> >>> >> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> >>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> >>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> >>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> >>> particularly for those from >> >>> 18 >> >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the >> >>> age >> >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> you're >> >>> in >> >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> >>> maybe >> >>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> >>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of >> >>> you. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Sam >> >>> >> >>> Video links: >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >> >>> m >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:27:47 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:27:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final projects, papers, research hints In-Reply-To: References: <0DD7C5BB-46FA-4CDA-894E-EE5D34A3AE9A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Plos1 is a good database for those who may need to do psych research, or who may benefit from citing a study in another paper as a research source. If your university has a writing center, use it. I didn't until my religion professor gave my class the deal that if we went to the writing center we could have an extra day to work on our papers, (which is really valuable because he only gives us 3 or 4 days to do them). He told us up front that the papers that are worked on with a Write Place tutor usually do better, and this is true; I usually get B's on my papers without writing help, and all mine this semester have been at least A minuses. I have a tutor there who I can consistently see, which is nice because he's a senior English major, knows his stuff, and can also give me feedback on how I'm improving from paper to paper and give me suggestions to use on my own. Third, don't forget about other sources you can use to get information. Quite a few times I've just gone onto google, typed in my search terms, and found books on the topic. Then once I have the file I can either read it all and take notes of quotes and page numbers for my citations as I go, or use the find command to search for specific topics. For example, I did a report on braille literacy a few years ago, so I downloaded a book from Bookshare whith a bunch of statistics about braille literacy and used it in my paper. Sometimes these resources specifically available to us aren't available in the college libraries, which are mainly intended for sighted students who may not have a need to research braille or other blindness related topics. I mention this specifically, because I noticed a few of the projects mentioned on this list were about blindness topics or the topic of people with physical disabilities in general. Thanks, On 4/9/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > scholar.google.com > Or, just type google scholar on google and it comes right up. Scholar > also has different ways of filtering results. So you can choose > whether the search results include books, or just articles, and so on. > Thanks. > Mary > > On 4/9/13, Hope Paulos wrote: >> Hi there! Does Google scholar have its own website, or do we just put the >> eword Google scholar before our search terms? >> Thanks! >> Hope >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Mary Fernandez wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> In the last two days, it has become obvious that college final >>> projects and exams are approaching! I am starting this thread as a way >>> for college students, grad students and graduates share some hints on >>> how to manage finals and everything they entail. Below are some ways I >>> learned to survive this challenging time. >>> 1. Everyone has a research paper due soon. There has been a lot of >>> chatter regarding best ways to do research. First, your university >>> has a library with extremely knowledgeable librarians! In many >>> colleges there are librarians that specialize in particular areas, >>> e.g. science, literature etc. So, when you are stuck, this should be >>> one of the first places you explore. They will tell you about >>> resources that you might not even be aware of. Along with that, get >>> very familiar with your school libraries website. There should be >>> links to the databases your school subscribes to. >>> When starting a research paper, professors will often have different >>> views on how they let students choose topics. While some want sources >>> and thesis statements well ahead of times, others simply say turn in a >>> paper about something we talked in class. Regardless of the professor, >>> one should always start with the broader idea. For instance, if I want >>> to write a comp lit paper on nineteenth century British literature, >>> I'd probably start with doing a Google scholar search. Google Scholar >>> is better than just running a Google search, because the summaries >>> that come up are from "academic" peer reviewed sources. So you never >>> have to worry about whether a source will be credible or not. >>> Then, as you get a better idea of the options available, you start >>> narrowing down until you come up with a specific topic. While this is >>> not by far, the only method of doing this type of research, it has >>> always served me well, because the worst thing to find out the week >>> before your paper is due is that there isn't enough literature out >>> there. >>> >>> Finally, some databases that I like for social science research are: >>> JSTOR (which has older studies), and PsychInfo, (which is a sub >>> database of EBSCO). >>> Remember to talk to your librarian and get familiar with the library >>> website, since sometimes they are nice enough to allow you to search >>> database by subject. So, if you need articles on history, it will show >>> you the databases which are history specific. >>> 2. Tutoring and study help. There have been some questions about >>> searching for guidance and direction with specific papers and with >>> specific books. >>> All colleges have some sort of tutoring program. Many have a >>> writing/composition specific department. You get paired with a student >>> who has taken the class, and who can help you understand the material. >>> For big papers I always took it to the writing center at my college, >>> since when you live with a paper for so long, there are little >>> mistakes that you don't catch. If you need help understanding a >>> specific book, and getting ideas as to how to read more effectively, >>> go to your tutor! >>> 3. Presentations. >>> Ok, so my favorite Microsoft program has made an appearance, >>> PowerPoint. I will confess, all I know how to do in PowerPoint is read >>> slide shows. Seriously, that's it. But I am a college graduate, and >>> even made research posters which are based on PowerPoint before you >>> can print them. Here is the way I did it. >>> First, you do your research. Once you have the basis of your >>> presentation, you start making your presentation. Remember that >>> Powerpoints are visual aids, they are not supposed to be your full >>> presentation. They aren't supposed to have long texts on everything >>> you want to say. They simply underline what you think is important, >>> and if you have time you can even make them pretty. >>> For my presentations, I would do a Word documents, in which I'd do a >>> list, with the slide number and the content I wanted in that slide. >>> For instance, >>> Slide 1 >>> Mary Fernandez >>> The Life of T.S. Elliott. >>> Slide 2 >>> Picture of Elliott as a young man >>> Slide 3. >>> Thomas Sterns Elliott was born in such and such date. >>> You get the idea. Once I had my slide content perfected I'd do one of >>> two \ things. I'd either go to my Library's IT center, whose sole >>> purpose was to aid students with any technological presentations, and >>> digital learning. And I'd show them my slides, and would tell them >>> exactly how I wanted the powerpoint to look. All they did was point >>> and click, and copy and paste. For pictures, we'd go on Google images, >>> and I'd tell them, the exact idea of what I wanted. They'd tell me the >>> options and then I'd choose which one I wanted. >>> The second method was to buy one of my roommates lunch in exchange for >>> their powerpoint skills. You can also do this with readers. However, >>> if you are choosing to do this, please be considerate of your friends' >>> time, and be aware they are incredibly loaded with work too. >>> Finally, on presentation day, I'd have my personal notes, as well as >>> my original outline of what was on each slide, so I always knew what >>> my peers were looking at. >>> I encourage everyone to learn to use Powerpoint, I will soon! But this >>> is a work around until this summer when you will all be Powerpoint >>> experts. >>> Sorry this went on for so long. Hope it helps! >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> -- >>> Mary Fernandez >>> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >>> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >>> feel." >>> — >>> Maya Angelou >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > — > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Apr 9 18:37:26 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:37:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130409112034.01c48998@comcast.net> Good morning, wmodnl, For me, In addition to bienucleation resulting from retinal blastoma, I acquired brain damage at age 19, and that, of course is one of those hidden disabilities about which no one suspects from looking at me, I'm just a lil' retarded so that I can't readily figure things out, must hit me like a ton 'o bricks, before there is understanding to be had. For me, a biproduct of brain damage has been a crippling tactile appraxia (inabillity of limb to communicate with brain thus rendering use of braille, a little bit of a pipe dream. This has effected, embodying a "real" blind person. To be one of those folks whom don't even read braille, when tactilly experienceing what I read used to be such an integral layer of my learning. So 10 years later, some re-inventing is in order, to make something that resembles progress in a forward-looking trajectory. Anyone know what my point is?; but, for some people for there personal choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; nor, does one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. >For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where >the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer >service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your >incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this >unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at >Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with >a cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to >the bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two >of my friends feel safer using the service when ever they >travel. This is due in part to anxiety issues, them being people >who get easily disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. >Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do >something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and >belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" >As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model >approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to >adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a >cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. > >Sent from my iPad > >On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > > > Hi Sam! > > First of all, welcome to the list! > > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives > the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of > themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with > you the fact, that there is a better life! > > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take > care of yourself, and get a job! > > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with > other disabilities. > > Thanks, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson > [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at > Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful > place I call > > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an > > option for either short or long-term living. > > > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this > > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for > blind adults ages > > 22-elderly in Chicago. > > > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, > > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive > > way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available > > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are > > microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for > ourselves as > > we eat in the dining room. > > > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out > and talking > > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the > > facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not > > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a > > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want > > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, > > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who > just wants > > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't > have or want > > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and > so would would do > > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the > > cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, > > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many > > low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their > > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow > > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, > > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care > advocate, who > > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and > > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the > > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very > > knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety > > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can > have guests > > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If > > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do > is fill out > > a quick background check form for safety. > > > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it > really is like a > > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I > > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my > > life. > > > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm > > really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by > > medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for > > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on > > one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all > > up to the person. > > > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > > stressed about the future. > > > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > > more. > > > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here > > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be > > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many > > people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for > those from 18 > > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon > > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this > > other project I'd really appreciate it. > > > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > > > > > Sam > > > > Video links: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:41:09 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:41:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final projects, papers, research hints In-Reply-To: References: <0DD7C5BB-46FA-4CDA-894E-EE5D34A3AE9A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-3834890946562594523@unknownmsgid> Another good resource which we use in high school is ABC Clio. This database includes information on a wide variety of subjects: religions, history, science, English, social issues, and many more. I'm not sure if ABC-Clio would be useful to college students, but you could give it a try. The URL is www.abc-clio.com. Hope this helps! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Plos1 is a good database for those who may need to do psych research, > or who may benefit from citing a study in another paper as a research > source. > > If your university has a writing center, use it. I didn't until my > religion professor gave my class the deal that if we went to the > writing center we could have an extra day to work on our papers, > (which is really valuable because he only gives us 3 or 4 days to do > them). He told us up front that the papers that are worked on with a > Write Place tutor usually do better, and this is true; I usually get > B's on my papers without writing help, and all mine this semester have > been at least A minuses. I have a tutor there who I can consistently > see, which is nice because he's a senior English major, knows his > stuff, and can also give me feedback on how I'm improving from paper > to paper and give me suggestions to use on my own. > > Third, don't forget about other sources you can use to get > information. Quite a few times I've just gone onto google, typed in > my search terms, and found books on the topic. Then once I have the > file I can either read it all and take notes of quotes and page > numbers for my citations as I go, or use the find command to search > for specific topics. For example, I did a report on braille literacy > a few years ago, so I downloaded a book from Bookshare whith a bunch > of statistics about braille literacy and used it in my paper. > Sometimes these resources specifically available to us aren't > available in the college libraries, which are mainly intended for > sighted students who may not have a need to research braille or other > blindness related topics. I mention this specifically, because I > noticed a few of the projects mentioned on this list were about > blindness topics or the topic of people with physical disabilities in > general. > > Thanks, > > > On 4/9/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: >> scholar.google.com >> Or, just type google scholar on google and it comes right up. Scholar >> also has different ways of filtering results. So you can choose >> whether the search results include books, or just articles, and so on. >> Thanks. >> Mary >> >> On 4/9/13, Hope Paulos wrote: >>> Hi there! Does Google scholar have its own website, or do we just put the >>> eword Google scholar before our search terms? >>> Thanks! >>> Hope >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> In the last two days, it has become obvious that college final >>>> projects and exams are approaching! I am starting this thread as a way >>>> for college students, grad students and graduates share some hints on >>>> how to manage finals and everything they entail. Below are some ways I >>>> learned to survive this challenging time. >>>> 1. Everyone has a research paper due soon. There has been a lot of >>>> chatter regarding best ways to do research. First, your university >>>> has a library with extremely knowledgeable librarians! In many >>>> colleges there are librarians that specialize in particular areas, >>>> e.g. science, literature etc. So, when you are stuck, this should be >>>> one of the first places you explore. They will tell you about >>>> resources that you might not even be aware of. Along with that, get >>>> very familiar with your school libraries website. There should be >>>> links to the databases your school subscribes to. >>>> When starting a research paper, professors will often have different >>>> views on how they let students choose topics. While some want sources >>>> and thesis statements well ahead of times, others simply say turn in a >>>> paper about something we talked in class. Regardless of the professor, >>>> one should always start with the broader idea. For instance, if I want >>>> to write a comp lit paper on nineteenth century British literature, >>>> I'd probably start with doing a Google scholar search. Google Scholar >>>> is better than just running a Google search, because the summaries >>>> that come up are from "academic" peer reviewed sources. So you never >>>> have to worry about whether a source will be credible or not. >>>> Then, as you get a better idea of the options available, you start >>>> narrowing down until you come up with a specific topic. While this is >>>> not by far, the only method of doing this type of research, it has >>>> always served me well, because the worst thing to find out the week >>>> before your paper is due is that there isn't enough literature out >>>> there. >>>> >>>> Finally, some databases that I like for social science research are: >>>> JSTOR (which has older studies), and PsychInfo, (which is a sub >>>> database of EBSCO). >>>> Remember to talk to your librarian and get familiar with the library >>>> website, since sometimes they are nice enough to allow you to search >>>> database by subject. So, if you need articles on history, it will show >>>> you the databases which are history specific. >>>> 2. Tutoring and study help. There have been some questions about >>>> searching for guidance and direction with specific papers and with >>>> specific books. >>>> All colleges have some sort of tutoring program. Many have a >>>> writing/composition specific department. You get paired with a student >>>> who has taken the class, and who can help you understand the material. >>>> For big papers I always took it to the writing center at my college, >>>> since when you live with a paper for so long, there are little >>>> mistakes that you don't catch. If you need help understanding a >>>> specific book, and getting ideas as to how to read more effectively, >>>> go to your tutor! >>>> 3. Presentations. >>>> Ok, so my favorite Microsoft program has made an appearance, >>>> PowerPoint. I will confess, all I know how to do in PowerPoint is read >>>> slide shows. Seriously, that's it. But I am a college graduate, and >>>> even made research posters which are based on PowerPoint before you >>>> can print them. Here is the way I did it. >>>> First, you do your research. Once you have the basis of your >>>> presentation, you start making your presentation. Remember that >>>> Powerpoints are visual aids, they are not supposed to be your full >>>> presentation. They aren't supposed to have long texts on everything >>>> you want to say. They simply underline what you think is important, >>>> and if you have time you can even make them pretty. >>>> For my presentations, I would do a Word documents, in which I'd do a >>>> list, with the slide number and the content I wanted in that slide. >>>> For instance, >>>> Slide 1 >>>> Mary Fernandez >>>> The Life of T.S. Elliott. >>>> Slide 2 >>>> Picture of Elliott as a young man >>>> Slide 3. >>>> Thomas Sterns Elliott was born in such and such date. >>>> You get the idea. Once I had my slide content perfected I'd do one of >>>> two \ things. I'd either go to my Library's IT center, whose sole >>>> purpose was to aid students with any technological presentations, and >>>> digital learning. And I'd show them my slides, and would tell them >>>> exactly how I wanted the powerpoint to look. All they did was point >>>> and click, and copy and paste. For pictures, we'd go on Google images, >>>> and I'd tell them, the exact idea of what I wanted. They'd tell me the >>>> options and then I'd choose which one I wanted. >>>> The second method was to buy one of my roommates lunch in exchange for >>>> their powerpoint skills. You can also do this with readers. However, >>>> if you are choosing to do this, please be considerate of your friends' >>>> time, and be aware they are incredibly loaded with work too. >>>> Finally, on presentation day, I'd have my personal notes, as well as >>>> my original outline of what was on each slide, so I always knew what >>>> my peers were looking at. >>>> I encourage everyone to learn to use Powerpoint, I will soon! But this >>>> is a work around until this summer when you will all be Powerpoint >>>> experts. >>>> Sorry this went on for so long. Hope it helps! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mary Fernandez >>>> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >>>> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >>>> feel." >>>> — >>>> Maya Angelou >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >> feel." >> — >> Maya Angelou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 18:56:24 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 14:56:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130409112034.01c48998@comcast.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130409112034.01c48998@comcast.net> Message-ID: <005f01ce348a$c5180520$4f480f60$@gmail.com> Wel said. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Good morning, wmodnl, For me, In addition to bienucleation resulting from retinal blastoma, I acquired brain damage at age 19, and that, of course is one of those hidden disabilities about which no one suspects from looking at me, I'm just a lil' retarded so that I can't readily figure things out, must hit me like a ton 'o bricks, before there is understanding to be had. For me, a biproduct of brain damage has been a crippling tactile appraxia (inabillity of limb to communicate with brain thus rendering use of braille, a little bit of a pipe dream. This has effected, embodying a "real" blind person. To be one of those folks whom don't even read braille, when tactilly experienceing what I read used to be such an integral layer of my learning. So 10 years later, some re-inventing is in order, to make something that resembles progress in a forward-looking trajectory. Anyone know what my point is?; but, for some people for there personal choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; nor, does one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. >For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where >the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer >service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your >incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this >unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at >Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with >a cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to >the bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two >of my friends feel safer using the service when ever they >travel. This is due in part to anxiety issues, them being people >who get easily disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. >Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do >something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and >belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" >As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model >approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to >adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a >cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. > >Sent from my iPad > >On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > > > Hi Sam! > > First of all, welcome to the list! > > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives > the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of > themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with > you the fact, that there is a better life! > > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take > care of yourself, and get a job! > > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with > other disabilities. > > Thanks, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson > [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at > Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful > place I call > > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an > > option for either short or long-term living. > > > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this > > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for > blind adults ages > > 22-elderly in Chicago. > > > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, > > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive > > way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available > > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are > > microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for > ourselves as > > we eat in the dining room. > > > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out > and talking > > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the > > facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not > > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a > > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want > > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, > > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who > just wants > > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't > have or want > > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and > so would would do > > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the > > cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, > > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many > > low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their > > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow > > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, > > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care > advocate, who > > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and > > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the > > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very > > knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety > > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can > have guests > > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If > > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do > is fill out > > a quick background check form for safety. > > > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it > really is like a > > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I > > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my > > life. > > > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm > > really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by > > medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for > > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on > > one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all > > up to the person. > > > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > > stressed about the future. > > > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > > more. > > > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here > > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be > > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many > > people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for > those from 18 > > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon > > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this > > other project I'd really appreciate it. > > > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > > > > > Sam > > > > Video links: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From colorado.students at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:12:20 2013 From: colorado.students at gmail.com (colorado.students at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:12:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Power Point In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello I am very familiar with Power Point I will give you a few commands that should help you to get started. Create a new slide with in a presentation, CTR M To navigate between the different fills such as the title box and the content area you will need to use tab, but once you are on the box you wish to enter text in you will need to hit enter to focus the cursor, when you are done with that text box press escape twice to move from that box back to the slide area. If you want to insert pictures and other audio you will need to use the insert ribbon if you have any other questions please email me off the list at rozierantonio at gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:01 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Power Point Hi, Do you know how to create slides of a 2007 Power Point, and how to write some content information on them? I actually know some basics of it because my Lighthouse instructor taught me. Also, Do you know how to put pictures and videos on them? I was just wondering because I’m actually going to present a presentation for my Literature class that is due on Monday, April 29, and I’m not so sure how to do it? Thank you so much. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/colorado.students%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:54:24 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 15:54:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <005f01ce348a$c5180520$4f480f60$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130409112034.01c48998@comcast.net> <005f01ce348a$c5180520$4f480f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, a lot of people in the medical and human services fields related to blindness and other related disabilities have a lot of catching up to do. A lot of the thereauputic fields are starting to recognize each other's value and work together, E.G. Music therapists work a lot with speech, physical, recreational, and occupational therapists to accomplish a common goal. A lot of the time this happens and accomplishes multiple goals at once. For example, a music therapist may work with a physical therapist to teach a stroke patient how to walk with a steady gate again by playing music of a specific beat and working up the tempo till the person can walk at or close to their pre-stroke pace. A lot of the time this not only rehabilitates skills used for walking, but it also gives the brain a work out in matching rhythm and can build confidence. But, as far as specialists in the voc rehab, psychology, school, and medical fields are concerned, a lot has to be learned. A person with blindness and some other hidden disability, or any two disabilities coinciding together, would probably benefit from a more comprehensive approach to taking care of things that works specifically for their situation than seeing some person who specializes in this and another person who specializes in that. In some cases, such as if the person needs to learn braille, this may not be able to be helped, but it would sure be nice if there were specialty people for this sort of thing. On 4/8/13, justin williams wrote: > Wel said. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > Mihalakis > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Good morning, wmodnl, > > For me, In addition to bienucleation resulting from retinal > blastoma, I acquired brain damage at age 19, and that, of course is > one of those hidden disabilities about which no one suspects from > looking at me, I'm just a lil' retarded so that I can't readily > figure things out, must hit me like a ton 'o bricks, before there is > understanding to be had. For me, a biproduct of brain damage has been > a crippling tactile appraxia (inabillity of limb to communicate with > brain thus rendering use of braille, a little bit of a pipe dream. > This has effected, embodying a "real" blind person. To be one of > those folks whom don't even read braille, when tactilly experienceing > what I read used to be such an integral layer of my learning. So 10 > years later, some re-inventing is in order, to make something that > resembles progress in a forward-looking trajectory. > > Anyone know what my point is?; but, for some people for there > personal choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; > nor, does one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. >>For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where >>the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer >>service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your >>incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this >>unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at >>Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with >>a cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to >>the bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two >>of my friends feel safer using the service when ever they >>travel. This is due in part to anxiety issues, them being people >>who get easily disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. >>Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do >>something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and >>belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" >>As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model >>approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to >>adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a >>cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: >> >> > Hi Sam! >> > First of all, welcome to the list! >> > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives >> the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of >> themselves, cook for themselves, etc. >> > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with >> you the fact, that there is a better life! >> > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take >> care of yourself, and get a job! >> > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with >> other disabilities. >> > Thanks, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> > >> > Hi Everyone, >> > >> > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, > as >> > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >> > I >> > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >> place I call >> > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an >> > option for either short or long-term living. >> > >> > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this >> > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for >> blind adults ages >> > 22-elderly in Chicago. >> > >> > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, >> > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> > >> > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive >> > way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff > available >> > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There >> > are >> > microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for >> ourselves as >> > we eat in the dining room. >> > >> > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out >> and talking >> > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >> > bingo, >> > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the >> > facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> > >> > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not >> > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't > be a >> > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they > want >> > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of > peers, >> > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> just wants >> > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have or want >> > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> > be >> > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and >> so would would do >> > well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> > feeling > of >> > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the >> > cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. >> > Or, >> > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many >> > low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad > neighborhoods. >> > >> > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their >> > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to > grow >> > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed > work, >> > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care >> advocate, who >> > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman > and >> > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel > the >> > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's > very >> > knowledgable about resources in the community. >> > >> > >> > >> > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety >> > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can >> have guests >> > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. > If >> > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do >> is fill out >> > a quick background check form for safety. >> > >> > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >> really is like a >> > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here > I >> > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in > my >> > life. >> > >> > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm >> > really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by >> > medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> > >> > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for >> > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on >> > one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's > all >> > up to the person. >> > >> > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> > stressed about the future. >> > >> > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> > more. >> > >> > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here >> > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities >> > to > be >> > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from >> > many >> > people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for >> those from 18 >> > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> > you're > in >> > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon >> > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss > this >> > other project I'd really appreciate it. >> > >> > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> > >> > >> > >> > Sam >> > >> > Video links: >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:56:24 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 15:56:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS In-Reply-To: References: <1318D1CA21714C70BAB73764612BC12E@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Speaking of the BrailleNote-BrailleSense gps, Sendero is supposed to be releasing an IPhone app version of the gps soon. That might be something to look into since if you don't already have the Sendero for your notetaker the App might be a cheaper option. On 4/9/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Hope, > I've had some experience with the Trekker Breeze, and I think that, > under the circumstances, it can work well. However, depending on your > campus, you may run into a unique problem. My college campus is quite > nice with lots of tall trees. Unfortunately, said trees could quite > literally block the satellite signal. So, I used a GPS when I was > learning my campus, but it really wasn't practical on a day-to-day > basis. I found it much better to memorize the campus, starting with > the areas I would need first and working from there. While I don't > know your school or its campus, you may run into this problem as well. > I haven't actually done anything with the BrailleNote GPS, but it > seems like a versatile tool. That might be another option if you want > to go the GPS route.I hope this was somewhat helpful. > Patrick > > On 4/9/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> The Best GPS I've ever used is actually the GPS on the Braille Plus 18 by >> APH. It is Android based and has the resources of a mainstream GPS like >> finding bus stops, while being completely accessible. It is also small >> enough to fit in your hoody pocket. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hope Paulos >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:48 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with >> GPS >> >> Hi! I wanted to ask a question regarding what GPS products people use >> when >> navigating their campuses and surrounding area. I am going to be a >> resident >> >> assistant this summer, and a campus where I'm not familiar with the >> surroundings. I was thinking GPS might be able to assist me. I know that >> their applications on the iPhone but I would prefer something like the >> trekker breeze or the captain mobility GPS solution. Is anyone used >> either >> of these products? Feel free to write me off list, if you would prefer. >> Thank you! >> Hope >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 20:00:52 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:00:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130409112034.01c48998@comcast.net> <005f01ce348a$c5180520$4f480f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008601ce3493$c66aadc0$53400940$@gmail.com> Music therapy is incredible. You can do all kinds of neat things with music to help people. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 3:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Unfortunately, a lot of people in the medical and human services fields related to blindness and other related disabilities have a lot of catching up to do. A lot of the thereauputic fields are starting to recognize each other's value and work together, E.G. Music therapists work a lot with speech, physical, recreational, and occupational therapists to accomplish a common goal. A lot of the time this happens and accomplishes multiple goals at once. For example, a music therapist may work with a physical therapist to teach a stroke patient how to walk with a steady gate again by playing music of a specific beat and working up the tempo till the person can walk at or close to their pre-stroke pace. A lot of the time this not only rehabilitates skills used for walking, but it also gives the brain a work out in matching rhythm and can build confidence. But, as far as specialists in the voc rehab, psychology, school, and medical fields are concerned, a lot has to be learned. A person with blindness and some other hidden disability, or any two disabilities coinciding together, would probably benefit from a more comprehensive approach to taking care of things that works specifically for their situation than seeing some person who specializes in this and another person who specializes in that. In some cases, such as if the person needs to learn braille, this may not be able to be helped, but it would sure be nice if there were specialty people for this sort of thing. On 4/8/13, justin williams wrote: > Wel said. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > Mihalakis > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Good morning, wmodnl, > > For me, In addition to bienucleation resulting from retinal > blastoma, I acquired brain damage at age 19, and that, of course is > one of those hidden disabilities about which no one suspects from > looking at me, I'm just a lil' retarded so that I can't readily > figure things out, must hit me like a ton 'o bricks, before there is > understanding to be had. For me, a biproduct of brain damage has been > a crippling tactile appraxia (inabillity of limb to communicate with > brain thus rendering use of braille, a little bit of a pipe dream. > This has effected, embodying a "real" blind person. To be one of those > folks whom don't even read braille, when tactilly experienceing what I > read used to be such an integral layer of my learning. So 10 years > later, some re-inventing is in order, to make something that resembles > progress in a forward-looking trajectory. > > Anyone know what my point is?; but, for some people for there personal > choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; nor, does > one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. >>For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where >>the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer >>service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your >>incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this >>unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at >>Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with a >>cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to the >>bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two of my >>friends feel safer using the service when ever they travel. This is >>due in part to anxiety issues, them being people who get easily >>disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. >>Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do >>something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and >>belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" >>As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model >>approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to >>adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a >>cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: >> >> > Hi Sam! >> > First of all, welcome to the list! >> > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives >> the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of >> themselves, cook for themselves, etc. >> > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with >> you the fact, that there is a better life! >> > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take >> care of yourself, and get a job! >> > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with >> other disabilities. >> > Thanks, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> > >> > Hi Everyone, >> > >> > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >> > me, > as >> > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >> > I >> > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >> place I call >> > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an >> > option for either short or long-term living. >> > >> > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >> > moved > this >> > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for >> blind adults ages >> > 22-elderly in Chicago. >> > >> > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, >> > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> > >> > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> > staff > available >> > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. >> > There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't >> > cook for >> ourselves as >> > we eat in the dining room. >> > >> > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> > medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >> > hanging out >> and talking >> > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >> > bingo, >> > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >> > e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >> > to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> > >> > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >> > is > not >> > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> > wouldn't > be a >> > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels >> > they > want >> > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of > peers, >> > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> just wants >> > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have or want >> > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> > be >> > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and >> so would would do >> > well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> > feeling > of >> > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. >> > Or, >> > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as >> > many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad > neighborhoods. >> > >> > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >> > want > their >> > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase >> > to > grow >> > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or >> > payed > work, >> > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care >> advocate, who >> > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at >> > Friedman > and >> > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I >> > feel > the >> > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >> > who's > very >> > knowledgable about resources in the community. >> > >> > >> > >> > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >> > or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >> > for > safety >> > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can >> have guests >> > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. > If >> > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do >> is fill out >> > a quick background check form for safety. >> > >> > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >> really is like a >> > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. >> > Here > I >> > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time >> > in > my >> > life. >> > >> > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> > >> > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >> > stay > for >> > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> > consider it home. It's > all >> > up to the person. >> > >> > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> > less stressed about the future. >> > >> > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >> > learn more. >> > >> > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >> > experience > here >> > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> > facilities to > be >> > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from >> > many people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for >> those from 18 >> > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> > you're > in >> > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> > maybe > soon >> > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> > discuss > this >> > other project I'd really appreciate it. >> > >> > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> > >> > >> > >> > Sam >> > >> > Video links: >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmai >> > l.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >>.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 20:01:15 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:01:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS In-Reply-To: References: <1318D1CA21714C70BAB73764612BC12E@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <008801ce3493$d42f7580$7c8e6080$@gmail.com> >From what I here, they are a pretty good company. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 3:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS Speaking of the BrailleNote-BrailleSense gps, Sendero is supposed to be releasing an IPhone app version of the gps soon. That might be something to look into since if you don't already have the Sendero for your notetaker the App might be a cheaper option. On 4/9/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Hope, > I've had some experience with the Trekker Breeze, and I think that, > under the circumstances, it can work well. However, depending on your > campus, you may run into a unique problem. My college campus is quite > nice with lots of tall trees. Unfortunately, said trees could quite > literally block the satellite signal. So, I used a GPS when I was > learning my campus, but it really wasn't practical on a day-to-day > basis. I found it much better to memorize the campus, starting with > the areas I would need first and working from there. While I don't > know your school or its campus, you may run into this problem as well. > I haven't actually done anything with the BrailleNote GPS, but it > seems like a versatile tool. That might be another option if you want > to go the GPS route.I hope this was somewhat helpful. > Patrick > > On 4/9/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> The Best GPS I've ever used is actually the GPS on the Braille Plus >> 18 by APH. It is Android based and has the resources of a mainstream >> GPS like finding bus stops, while being completely accessible. It is >> also small enough to fit in your hoody pocket. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hope Paulos >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:48 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus >> with GPS >> >> Hi! I wanted to ask a question regarding what GPS products people use >> when navigating their campuses and surrounding area. I am going to be >> a resident >> >> assistant this summer, and a campus where I'm not familiar with the >> surroundings. I was thinking GPS might be able to assist me. I know >> that their applications on the iPhone but I would prefer something >> like the trekker breeze or the captain mobility GPS solution. Is >> anyone used either of these products? Feel free to write me off list, >> if you would prefer. >> Thank you! >> Hope >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gm >> ail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:29:07 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:29:07 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7.0.1.0.2.20130409112034.01c48998@comcast.net><005f01ce348a$c5180520$4f480f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0FDD60975A2D4127BE2361B24805378B@userPC> I agree. Sometimes massage therapists will work with physical therapists to help a client meet a goal they are trying to reach. I agree that a lot of fields have a lot of catching up to do. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Unfortunately, a lot of people in the medical and human services fields related to blindness and other related disabilities have a lot of catching up to do. A lot of the thereauputic fields are starting to recognize each other's value and work together, E.G. Music therapists work a lot with speech, physical, recreational, and occupational therapists to accomplish a common goal. A lot of the time this happens and accomplishes multiple goals at once. For example, a music therapist may work with a physical therapist to teach a stroke patient how to walk with a steady gate again by playing music of a specific beat and working up the tempo till the person can walk at or close to their pre-stroke pace. A lot of the time this not only rehabilitates skills used for walking, but it also gives the brain a work out in matching rhythm and can build confidence. But, as far as specialists in the voc rehab, psychology, school, and medical fields are concerned, a lot has to be learned. A person with blindness and some other hidden disability, or any two disabilities coinciding together, would probably benefit from a more comprehensive approach to taking care of things that works specifically for their situation than seeing some person who specializes in this and another person who specializes in that. In some cases, such as if the person needs to learn braille, this may not be able to be helped, but it would sure be nice if there were specialty people for this sort of thing. On 4/8/13, justin williams wrote: > Wel said. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > Mihalakis > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Good morning, wmodnl, > > For me, In addition to bienucleation resulting from retinal > blastoma, I acquired brain damage at age 19, and that, of course is > one of those hidden disabilities about which no one suspects from > looking at me, I'm just a lil' retarded so that I can't readily > figure things out, must hit me like a ton 'o bricks, before there is > understanding to be had. For me, a biproduct of brain damage has been > a crippling tactile appraxia (inabillity of limb to communicate with > brain thus rendering use of braille, a little bit of a pipe dream. > This has effected, embodying a "real" blind person. To be one of > those folks whom don't even read braille, when tactilly experienceing > what I read used to be such an integral layer of my learning. So 10 > years later, some re-inventing is in order, to make something that > resembles progress in a forward-looking trajectory. > > Anyone know what my point is?; but, for some people for there > personal choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; > nor, does one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. >>For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where >>the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer >>service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your >>incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this >>unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at >>Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with >>a cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to >>the bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two >>of my friends feel safer using the service when ever they >>travel. This is due in part to anxiety issues, them being people >>who get easily disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. >>Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do >>something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and >>belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" >>As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model >>approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to >>adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a >>cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: >> >> > Hi Sam! >> > First of all, welcome to the list! >> > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives >> the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of >> themselves, cook for themselves, etc. >> > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with >> you the fact, that there is a better life! >> > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take >> care of yourself, and get a job! >> > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with >> other disabilities. >> > Thanks, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> > >> > Hi Everyone, >> > >> > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, > as >> > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >> > I >> > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >> place I call >> > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an >> > option for either short or long-term living. >> > >> > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this >> > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for >> blind adults ages >> > 22-elderly in Chicago. >> > >> > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, >> > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> > >> > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive >> > way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff > available >> > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There >> > are >> > microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for >> ourselves as >> > we eat in the dining room. >> > >> > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out >> and talking >> > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >> > bingo, >> > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the >> > facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> > >> > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not >> > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't > be a >> > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they > want >> > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of > peers, >> > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> just wants >> > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have or want >> > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> > be >> > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and >> so would would do >> > well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> > feeling > of >> > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the >> > cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. >> > Or, >> > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many >> > low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad > neighborhoods. >> > >> > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their >> > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to > grow >> > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed > work, >> > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care >> advocate, who >> > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman > and >> > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel > the >> > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's > very >> > knowledgable about resources in the community. >> > >> > >> > >> > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety >> > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can >> have guests >> > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. > If >> > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do >> is fill out >> > a quick background check form for safety. >> > >> > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >> really is like a >> > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here > I >> > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in > my >> > life. >> > >> > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm >> > really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by >> > medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> > >> > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for >> > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on >> > one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's > all >> > up to the person. >> > >> > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> > stressed about the future. >> > >> > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> > more. >> > >> > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here >> > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities >> > to > be >> > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from >> > many >> > people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for >> those from 18 >> > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> > you're > in >> > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon >> > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss > this >> > other project I'd really appreciate it. >> > >> > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> > >> > >> > >> > Sam >> > >> > Video links: >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 21:32:14 2013 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:32:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} FW: Freedom Scientific News In-Reply-To: <1113020465847.1101384244195.43395.6.13162502@scheduler.constantcontact.com> References: <1113020465847.1101384244195.43395.6.13162502@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: <001b01ce3569$b50e6220$1f2b2660$@gmail.com> From: Freedom Scientific News [mailto:freedomscientificnews at freedomscientific.ccsend.com] On Behalf Of Freedom Scientific News Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 1:26 PM To: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Subject: Freedom Scientific News Freedom Scientific Logo Empowering IndependenceT Freedom Scientific News MAGic Screen Magnification Software Screenshot Free MAGic 12 Update We've updated our MAGicR Screen Magnification Software with some great enhancements, including: * Toggle Navigation Quick Keys on and off * Even better screen rendering performance for smoother movement of the mouse pointer, better focus tracking, and more * Enhanced performance with Citrix, Gmail, Internet Explorer, Excel, Outlook, PowerPoint, Open Office, and Skype This is a free update for all MAGic 12 users. Learn more about all of the new enhancements in MAGic 12. Updating your copy of MAGic is easy. Press ALT+F to open the MAGic menu, then choose the Help submenu, and select Check for Updates. Alternatively, you can download the full release of MAGic here. This release will also run as a 40-minute demo - for those who would like to evaluate this latest version of MAGic, which is packed with new features and sports a great new look and feel. MAGic 12 Competitive Upgrade Extended Through April 30, 2013 If you're impressed with what you see, and we've no doubt you will be, take advantage of our competitive upgrade offer for single and multi-users. For a limited time only, when you upgrade from ZoomTextR to MAGic, you will receive: $199 - Single User (retail value $769) . MAGic with Speech Screen Magnification software . MAGic Large Print Keyboard . MAGic Software Maintenance Agreement (SMA) $995 - Multi-user (retail value $2,885) . 5-seat license MAGic with Speech Screen Magnification software . 5 MAGic Large Print Keyboards . 5-seat MAGic Software Maintenance Agreement (SMA) This offer is only available until April 30, so don't delay. For more information, view the full list of terms and conditions that apply to this offer. Sneak Peek at JAWS 15 at CSUN Once again, Freedom Scientific offered a wide range of presentations at the CSUN Conference on Technology and Persons with Disabilities. Our extensive range of low vision, blindness, and learning disability solutions were demonstrated by our AT product experts. One of the most talked about events at the conference was a presentation by Eric Damery, who shared an early version of JAWSR 15 Screen Reading Software. While there will be many exciting new features revealed later this year, Eric highlighted one of the most anticipated - JAWS working with Windows 8 tablet computers. These devices, such as the Microsoft Surface Pro and Lenovo IdeaPad, give you the benefits of a touch-screen-based tablet computer, but the power of Windows, meaning you can run JAWS, Microsoft Office, and other Windows software. Use them as a tablet when browsing content such as news and sports, and use them as a laptop when serious work needs to get done. We'll be showing much more of this technology at the consumer conventions in July, and featuring more on FSCast later in the year. FSCast Features the Focus 80 Blue, WYNN 7 March's edition of FSCast, Freedom Scientific's official podcast, features an interview with Ron Miller, who discusses the Focus 80 Blue, our latest wireless refreshable Braille display. We talk about the entire Focus Blue family and how to determine which display is right for you. Beth Thomlinson then joins us to discuss many of the exciting new features in version 7 of our WYNNT literacy software. You won't want to miss an episode, and you won't if you subscribe to FSCast. The subscription is free, and delivers notification right to your computer when new FSCasts are released. If you did miss a previous FSCast, catch up by visiting the FSCast archives to download FSCast episodes in MP3. Remember, with JAWS now providing excellent support for iTunes, you can subscribe to FSCast through the iTunes Store. Freedom Scientific's Mission To develop, manufacture, and market technology-based products that provide equal access to information and computing for those with vision impairments or learning disabilities. JAWS Home Blindness Products Low Vision Products Find a Dealer 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716-1805, Phone: 800-444-4443, www.freedomscientific.com C2013 Freedom Scientific, Inc. All rights reserved. Freedom Scientific adheres to a very strict privacy policy. We will never sell, share or rent your email address or other information. Visit us online to learn more about how we use your information. Forward email This email was sent to avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com by freedomscientificnews at freedomscientific.com | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribeT | Privacy Policy. Freedom Scientific | 11800 31st Court North | Saint Petersburg | FL | 33716-1805 From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 22:31:08 2013 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:31:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: References: <8D002F822301F68-CFC-30248@webmail-d269.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Helga, I actually just read and tested on this book about 1 week ago for my American Literature course. I really do not have stratigies on how you could understand because I asked my professor a million questions about it after classes so he help me understand what I was reading. However, if you need clarification of what certain parts of the book is trying to imply then you can email me offlist @ tnw602 at jagmail.southalabama.edu HTH, Tamika Williams On 4/9/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Helga, > The Scarlet Letter is actually one of the most personally meaningful > books I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I think, if you can get > through the massive section about the custom house at the very start > (which, incidentally, wasn't required reading for my class when we did > this book), you'll have an easier time with the rest of the book. > Since a lot of people have mentioned spark notes, I need to warn you > to be careful with it. Some teachers despise it and might mark you > down for cheating if they find out you've used it, especially if you > copy the ideas you find there in your own essays and just change the > wording so it isn't obvious plagerism. Most teachers are probably > fine with you using it to clarify the meanings of confusing passages > here or there, some teachers might even encourage you to use it as a > study supplament but be careful. It's probably a good idea to know > where your teacher stands in regards to spark notes before you use > them and don't ever use ideas you find there as a substitute for > original thinking if you have to write any essays or book reviews. I > know I'm being kind of anal but I think it needed to be said. > Enjoy the book! I'd be more than happy to talk about it with you in > more detail off-list if you want. As I said before, I think it's one > of the most personally meaningful books I've ever read and it's > definitely one of my favorites. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/8/13, Miso Kwak wrote: >> I apologize if I am being repetitive here. I didn't read any of the >> following posts. >> I haven't read the book myself yet but I suggest you use Sparknotes. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Helga Schreiber >> To: nabs-l >> Sent: Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:53 pm >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter >> >> Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in >> order to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will >> give us a topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper >> next week, but this book is hard to understand due to the old English >> from the 1800’s. My professor told us that we need to read the entire >> book in order to write this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter >> by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and what do you recommend me to do in order for >> me to understand The Scarlet letter much better? Actually, my brother >> help me find some summaries of the whole book, but What other sources I >> can use in order to understand this book much better? I actually, have >> the book in Audio and Braille format, but still it’s hard to >> understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By the way, my paper >> will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Tue Apr 9 22:46:06 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:46:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} Surprise Yourself! NBP Message-ID: > >NBP logo > >April is National Poetry Month > >[] > >Surprise yourself! > >"For me, these poems are what poetry should be, >poetry that is written for and can be understood >by real people like me. But they are not simple >and sentimental. They are plain but challenging. >They are about life as it is lived and >experienced by real people like me, but >expressed in ways that I could never come up >with. I can identify with the thoughts expressed >by these poets because they are part of who I am >and how I live. They are about our lives." >- John in St. Louis, MO > >Celebrate National Poetry Month with four excellent collections in braille... > > >Poetry of Everyday Life >The >Poetry of Everyday Life >Compiled by JoAnn Becker and Diane Croft >In braille, or eBraille download, $9.99 > >*Don't >miss >Diane's new blog post about compiling poems for >this book. She warns, “This is not your grandmother’s poetry...” > > > > > > >A Family of Poems > >A >Family of Poems: My Favorite Poetry for Children >Selected by Caroline Kennedy >eBraille download, $5.00 > > > > > >[] >Letters >to a Young Poet >by Rainer Maria Rilke >eBraille download, $5.00 > > > > > > > >[] >Love: >Ten Poems >By Pablo Neruda >eBraille download, $5.00 > > > > > > > >****** >To order any books, send payment to: >NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 >Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. >Or order any of our books online at >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html. > >Forward >to a friend > > >NBP logo > > > > > > >Copyright © 2013 National Braille Press, All rights reserved. > >National Braille Press >88 Saint Stephen St >Boston, MA 02115 > >Add >us to your address book > > >www.nbp.org > > > Connect with us! > >Facebook logo > >Twitter logo > > >Linkedin logo > >YouTube logo > > >[] > > > >Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp > From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 22:48:14 2013 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:48:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Literature Project Presentation Assignment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Helga, what Kaiti said was basically the way that I was thinking. To be specific, when adding Mary Rowlandson life story, I think you can talk about Mary Rowlandson and her captivity and how her puritan belief gave her strength to make it through. You could give examples of all the hardships she went through such as her youngest daughter death and seperation from her other children but she still thanked god for everything and every moment including those tragic moments. This is another thing that I have recently covered in my American Literature course. If I could be of any extra help, feel free to email me at the email address that I previously gave you during the last post concerning "The Scarlet Letter" Tamika Williams On 4/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Helga, > > Start by doing research if you haven't already. It sounds like you're > pretty on the ball and thinking ahead about that though. I think that > if you need more research to make things fall into place that might > help. If you have enough information and it's organizable then it > should pretty much speak for itself. > > If your question was more about what angle you should take, some of > the best presentations of this kind are the ones which tell stories. > You could use the woman you're using as a case study of sorts and > touch on the specifics of Puritanism just by talking about her life. > For instance, you could start your presentation by explaining what > principles make up the puritan religion and how this effected > lifestyles and beliefs at the time. Mary, of course, was no > exception, and this is her story. Then you could tell the rest of the > historical facts in the context of narrating her life, sort of > combining the two. It's great for literature classes. > > Hope this helps. > > On 4/8/13, Helga wrote: >> Hi my name is Helga, and I would like to ask you some questions regarding >> my >> American Literature project. For my American Literature class my >> Professor >> told us that we need to do a presentation that needs to >> discuss/illustrate >> one aspect of American Literature & culture that we have discussed this >> term. I’m actually thinking in talking about on how the Puritan Era >> started, >> and also narrate the about the life of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson, who was a >> Puritan woman of that Era. Do you have any suggestions on how could I >> start >> to talk about these topics, and how to create a interesting Power Point >> presentation in order for me to present in front of my class? I’m not >> really >> so sure how to create a Power Point. I actually only know some basics of >> it. >> . By the way, my presentation is due Monday, April 29. Thanks so much. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars%40gmail.com > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 23:09:11 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:09:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with GPS In-Reply-To: <008801ce3493$d42f7580$7c8e6080$@gmail.com> References: <1318D1CA21714C70BAB73764612BC12E@BrandonsLaptop2> <008801ce3493$d42f7580$7c8e6080$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another option I just thought of: Contact your VR counselor and see about getting mobility training for your campus. It doesn't have to be a big thing. You can just get in touch with someone, have them come out a couple of times just to make sure you're on the right track, and be good to go when school starts. Patrick On 4/8/13, justin williams wrote: > From what I here, they are a pretty good company. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 3:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus with > GPS > > Speaking of the BrailleNote-BrailleSense gps, Sendero is supposed to be > releasing an IPhone app version of the gps soon. That might be something > to > look into since if you don't already have the Sendero for your notetaker > the > App might be a cheaper option. > > On 4/9/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Hope, >> I've had some experience with the Trekker Breeze, and I think that, >> under the circumstances, it can work well. However, depending on your >> campus, you may run into a unique problem. My college campus is quite >> nice with lots of tall trees. Unfortunately, said trees could quite >> literally block the satellite signal. So, I used a GPS when I was >> learning my campus, but it really wasn't practical on a day-to-day >> basis. I found it much better to memorize the campus, starting with >> the areas I would need first and working from there. While I don't >> know your school or its campus, you may run into this problem as well. >> I haven't actually done anything with the BrailleNote GPS, but it >> seems like a versatile tool. That might be another option if you want >> to go the GPS route.I hope this was somewhat helpful. >> Patrick >> >> On 4/9/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Hello, >>> The Best GPS I've ever used is actually the GPS on the Braille Plus >>> 18 by APH. It is Android based and has the resources of a mainstream >>> GPS like finding bus stops, while being completely accessible. It is >>> also small enough to fit in your hoody pocket. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Hope Paulos >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:48 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Technology question regarding navigating campus >>> with GPS >>> >>> Hi! I wanted to ask a question regarding what GPS products people use >>> when navigating their campuses and surrounding area. I am going to be >>> a resident >>> >>> assistant this summer, and a campus where I'm not familiar with the >>> surroundings. I was thinking GPS might be able to assist me. I know >>> that their applications on the iPhone but I would prefer something >>> like the trekker breeze or the captain mobility GPS solution. Is >>> anyone used either of these products? Feel free to write me off list, >>> if you would prefer. >>> Thank you! >>> Hope >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 23:35:05 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:35:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <0FDD60975A2D4127BE2361B24805378B@userPC> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7.0.1.0.2.20130409112034.01c48998@comcast.net><005f01ce348a$c5180520$4f480f60$@gmail.com> <0FDD60975A2D4127BE2361B24805378B@userPC> Message-ID: <001001ce357a$de098090$9a1c81b0$@verizon.net> Hi Rainnia, I never heard that about physical therapy and massage therapy. Makes sense. I think a more comprehensive holistic approach is needed all around. Hopefully one day we'll get there. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail LMT Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:29 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago I agree. Sometimes massage therapists will work with physical therapists to help a client meet a goal they are trying to reach. I agree that a lot of fields have a lot of catching up to do. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Unfortunately, a lot of people in the medical and human services fields related to blindness and other related disabilities have a lot of catching up to do. A lot of the thereauputic fields are starting to recognize each other's value and work together, E.G. Music therapists work a lot with speech, physical, recreational, and occupational therapists to accomplish a common goal. A lot of the time this happens and accomplishes multiple goals at once. For example, a music therapist may work with a physical therapist to teach a stroke patient how to walk with a steady gate again by playing music of a specific beat and working up the tempo till the person can walk at or close to their pre-stroke pace. A lot of the time this not only rehabilitates skills used for walking, but it also gives the brain a work out in matching rhythm and can build confidence. But, as far as specialists in the voc rehab, psychology, school, and medical fields are concerned, a lot has to be learned. A person with blindness and some other hidden disability, or any two disabilities coinciding together, would probably benefit from a more comprehensive approach to taking care of things that works specifically for their situation than seeing some person who specializes in this and another person who specializes in that. In some cases, such as if the person needs to learn braille, this may not be able to be helped, but it would sure be nice if there were specialty people for this sort of thing. On 4/8/13, justin williams wrote: > Wel said. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > Mihalakis > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Good morning, wmodnl, > > For me, In addition to bienucleation resulting from retinal > blastoma, I acquired brain damage at age 19, and that, of course is > one of those hidden disabilities about which no one suspects from > looking at me, I'm just a lil' retarded so that I can't readily > figure things out, must hit me like a ton 'o bricks, before there is > understanding to be had. For me, a biproduct of brain damage has been > a crippling tactile appraxia (inabillity of limb to communicate with > brain thus rendering use of braille, a little bit of a pipe dream. > This has effected, embodying a "real" blind person. To be one of those > folks whom don't even read braille, when tactilly experienceing what I > read used to be such an integral layer of my learning. So 10 years > later, some re-inventing is in order, to make something that resembles > progress in a forward-looking trajectory. > > Anyone know what my point is?; but, for some people for there personal > choice, they are not a good fit. One size does not fit all; nor, does > one program or philosophy fit all people within a group. >>For example, here in Boston, the transit system has a program where >>the blind ride for free. Also, they have integrated a customer >>service system, where you can get assistance to navigate from your >>incoming bus or subway to your next transfer. I do not use this >>unless I feel a need to. For example, yesterday was opening day at >>Fenway Park. I am sure, I would have used the help navigating with a >>cane or dog through a crowd of thousands to get from the subway to the >>bus just outside the park, to avoid encountering problems. Two of my >>friends feel safer using the service when ever they travel. This is >>due in part to anxiety issues, them being people who get easily >>disorientated. Knowing this, i have a question for you. >>Do I have a right to act like an authority figure telling them to do >>something else; or, is it my duty as a blind person to undermine and >>belittle them because they "do not meet a "special standard?" >>As a whole, we as a people need to start thinking from a model >>approach of the social model. We need to educate our culture to >>adapt, to make and integrate a user-friendly environment on a >>cross-disability platform. This is just my opinion, have a great day. >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:59 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: >> >> > Hi Sam! >> > First of all, welcome to the list! >> > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives >> the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of >> themselves, cook for themselves, etc. >> > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with >> you the fact, that there is a better life! >> > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take >> care of yourself, and get a job! >> > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with >> other disabilities. >> > Thanks, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> > >> > Hi Everyone, >> > >> > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >> > me, > as >> > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >> > I >> > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >> place I call >> > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an >> > option for either short or long-term living. >> > >> > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >> > moved > this >> > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for >> blind adults ages >> > 22-elderly in Chicago. >> > >> > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, >> > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> > >> > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> > staff > available >> > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. >> > There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't >> > cook for >> ourselves as >> > we eat in the dining room. >> > >> > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> > medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >> > hanging out >> and talking >> > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >> > bingo, >> > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >> > e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >> > to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> > >> > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >> > is > not >> > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> > wouldn't > be a >> > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels >> > they > want >> > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of > peers, >> > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> just wants >> > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have or want >> > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> > be >> > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and >> so would would do >> > well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> > feeling > of >> > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. >> > Or, >> > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as >> > many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad > neighborhoods. >> > >> > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >> > want > their >> > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase >> > to > grow >> > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or >> > payed > work, >> > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care >> advocate, who >> > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at >> > Friedman > and >> > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I >> > feel > the >> > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >> > who's > very >> > knowledgable about resources in the community. >> > >> > >> > >> > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >> > or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >> > for > safety >> > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can >> have guests >> > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. > If >> > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do >> is fill out >> > a quick background check form for safety. >> > >> > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >> really is like a >> > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. >> > Here > I >> > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time >> > in > my >> > life. >> > >> > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> > >> > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >> > stay > for >> > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> > consider it home. It's > all >> > up to the person. >> > >> > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> > less stressed about the future. >> > >> > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >> > learn more. >> > >> > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >> > experience > here >> > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> > facilities to > be >> > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from >> > many people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for >> those from 18 >> > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> > you're > in >> > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> > maybe > soon >> > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> > discuss > this >> > other project I'd really appreciate it. >> > >> > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> > >> > >> > >> > Sam >> > >> > Video links: >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >>.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 23:40:07 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:40:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001201ce357b$9251ffa0$b6f5fee0$@verizon.net> Hi Mellisa, You're welcome! I appreciate your comment. I agree. I assume PJ is your dog? Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 1:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, thank you for sharing your experience. Its whatever works for you. that is the philosophy that I bide by. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:43 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Everyone, First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my life. There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all up to the person. I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less stressed about the future. At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn more. Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. Sam Video links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 23:41:57 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:41:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Stop Torture of Children with Disabilities - Sign ASAN's petition - Ask Gemino not to Finance JRC In-Reply-To: References: <003901ce3571$9938b4d0$cbaa1e70$@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: This is slightly off-topic, but is a hot cross-disability issue right now and some of the students at this "school" have been blind in the past. From: IDA_CRPD_Forum at yahoogroups.com [mailto:IDA_CRPD_Forum at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurie Ahern Sent: Wednesday, 10 April 2013 1:13 AM To: IDA_CRPD_Forum at yahoogroups.com Subject: [IDA_CRPD_Forum] Sign ASAN's petition - Ask Gemino not to Finance JRC Don’t Finance Torture of Children with Disabilities The Autistic Self Advocacy Network has started a change.org petition asking Gemino Healthcare Finance (the group that just provided 7 million dollars of financing to the Judge Rotenberg Center) to terminate its relationship with JRC. Please click below to sign and please forward to your lists. https://www.change.org/petitions/gemino-healthcare-finance-terminate-your-re lationship-with-the-judge-rotenberg-center Gemino Healthcare Finance: Terminate your relationship with the Judge Rotenberg Center 1. Petition by The Autistic Self Advocacy Network _____ Painful electric shock at the push of a button. Hours of restraint and seclusion. Food and sleep deprivation. But this is not Guantánamo or Abu Ghraib. This is a "school" for disabled children and youth. These are only some of the practices of the Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton, Massachusetts. The JRC, which has been open since 1971, is most well-known by disability advocates and human rights activists for their controversial philosophy of "treatment" for people with developmental, intellectual, and psychiatric disabilities that dictates that pain and punishment should be used to change unwanted (and sometimes simply inconvenient) behavior. Their philosophy of treatment is that if a student does something they don't want them to be doing, staff should press a button and zap the student with an electric shock designed to be more powerful and painful than a police taser. The JRC is the only facility that uses this type of punishment. This is not treatment. This is torture. In 2012, a case against the JRC brought by the mother of a former student went to trial in Massachusetts. During testimony, the plaintiffs showed surveillance video of Andre McCollins receiving thirty-one shocks over a period of seven hours while restrained face-down, all for the offense of not wanting to take off his jacket. Most of the subsequent shocks were for tensing up or screaming. Earlier, the JRC's founder and executive director Matthew Israel was forced to resign in a plea agreement for destroying evidence against court orders after an incident in 2007 when a prank call led to staff shocking two students 77 and 29 times respectively over a period of three hours. Dozens of international disability rights organizations, as well as both the previous and current U.N. Special Rapporteurs on Torture, have condemned the JRC's practices as torture. The U.S. Department of Justice's civil rights division has been investigating the JRC for violating the rights of their students. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has warned the JRC for using unapproved devices. Massachusetts's Department of Developmental Services banned the use of the GED electric shock device on any students admitted after September 2011. In December 2012, U.S. Centers for Medicaid & Medicare Services sent the Massachusetts state government a letter prohibiting any federal Medicaid funds from going to any person living in a facility using electric shock aversives, even if that person isn't being shocked. In February 2013, Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick instructed the attorney general to file a motion to end the thirty-year-old court order that the JRC has been using to legally justify their use of "aversives." The New York State Education Department, which issued a scathing report in 2006, issued another letter in March 2013 prohibiting the use of the GED electric shock devices on any New York state student. Furthermore, while there is extant empirical evidence in support of alternative forms of treatment and intervention for severe behavioral problems that do not use painful aversives, the JRC has never published any peer-reviewed, randomized controlled trial demonstrating any long-term effectiveness, let alone superiority, of their skin shock "treatment." The JRC's model of "treatment" bears no support in contemporary scientific literature, though it is similar to the methods used in abusive environments that tend to develop in unscrupulous "troubled teen programs," prisons, and other coercive situations. There is no medical or moral reason that the JRC should be permitted to continue its practices, but Gemino's decision to provide significant financial support for the JRC reflects a lack of interest in the wellbeing of disabled people. In Gemino's own public statement, Director Rob Misener described the JRC as "an important organization" providing a "truly inspiring" "level of dedication and care." Mr. Misener also said that Gemino will "look forward to supporting their mission into the future." The JRC's mission is the eradication of any undesirable behavior or characteristic from the disabled people residing in the institution through the brutal use of force, pain, and fear. Gemino's financial support of the JRC will only enable the institution to devastate more lives and commit appalling abuse against the disabled people entrusted to its "care." There are many worthwhile organizations and service provision agencies that support disabled people, including those with the most significant disabilities, without the use of violence and abuse. You can see some of the past news coverage and reports documenting the JRC's history of abuse here: - Letter from former student and survivor of torture at the JRC , 2013 - Letter from former teacher at the JRC , 2013 - Mother Jones: School of Shock , 2007 - Mother Jones: Nagging? Zap. Swearing? Zap. 2007 - ABC Nightline: UN Calls Shock Treatment at Mass. School 'Torture' 2010 - Mental Disability Rights Int'l: Torture Not Treatment (PDF) - Fox 25 Boston: Protesters rally against Judge Rotenberg Center , 2013 - Fox 25 Boston: FDA meets on school shock devices, warns of violations , 2013 - Forbes: Autism Shock Therapy Practiced In US Is Torture, Says UN Official , 2013 - Boston Phoenix: Doctor Hurt: The aversive therapist and his painful record , 1985 - Page with links to many more videos, articles, and reports on Autistic Hoya To: Tom Schneider, Chief Operating Officer, Gemino Healthcare Finance Mike Gervais, Chief Executive Officer, Gemino Healthcare Finance Mark Roscioli, Chief Financial Officer, Gemino Healthcare Finance Rob Misener, Director, Gemino Healthcare Finance Stacy Allen, Executive Vice President, Portfolio Management & Operations, Gemino Healthcare Finance Gemino Healthcare Finance Joni Akins, Marketing Coordinator, Gemino Healthcare Finance Disability rights advocates were concerned to read that Gemino Healthcare Finance has provided a $7 million revolving line of credit to the Judge Rotenberg Educational Center, Inc., better known as the JRC. The JRC is widely known in the disability and human rights community as the only institution in the United States that uses painful electric shock "aversive" as a punishment for disabled... __._,_.___ Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: · New Members 2 Visit Your Group Yahoo! Groups Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback . __,_._,___ ________________End of message________________ This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies). Enquiries about list administration should be sent to disability-research-request at jiscmail.ac.uk Archives and tools are located at: www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to this web page. From samnelson1 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 23:48:52 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:48:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> Hi Suzanne, I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. I'm glad. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others based on how independent they were at home and how their parents encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition things like sewing... Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. Suzanne On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Gloria, > I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! > Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. > What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option > > to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. > > They have more NFB-centered views! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos > > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount > > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar > > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a > > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually > > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need > > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in > > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. > > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm > > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. > > Sincerely, > > Hope Paulos > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > > > >> Hi Mark and everyone, > >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers > >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different > >> list of blind > >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have > >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked > >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this > >> moment, it's just not for me. > >> > >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to > >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a > >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a > >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the > >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills > >> talents and personalitys. > >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in > >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see > >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, > >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has > >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, > >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very > >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others > >> with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not > >> that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes > >> tease him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) > >> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. > >> I > >> hope to get to know you all better. > >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. > >> Cadigan > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at > >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in > >> Chicago > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the > >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying > >> to > tell > us. > >> Sam > >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. > >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his > >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't > >> speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam > >> and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not > >> being so called "independent enough." > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Sam Nelson" > >> To: > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > >> > >> > >>> Hi Everyone, > >>> > >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from > >>> me, as > >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. > I > >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful > >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me > >>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > >>> > >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and > >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community > >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > >>> > >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > >>> > >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services > >>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond > >>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > >>> > >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as > >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just > >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities > >>> provided including: > bingo, > >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, > >>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move > >>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > >>> > >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. > >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues > >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman > >>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community > >>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and > >>> support from staff. This could be someone who's > >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > >>> trying > >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who > >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason > >>> doesn't have or want > >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could > be > >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so > >>> would would do > >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a > feeling > >>> of > >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall > >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just > >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for > >>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments > >>> are in really > >> bad neighborhoods. > >>> > >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they > >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a > >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the > >>> city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. > >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with > >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also > >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel > >>> the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person > >>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group > >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in > >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as > >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the > >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to > >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick > >>> background check form for safety. > >>> > >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really > >>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has > >>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid > >>> friendships for the first time in my life. > >>> > >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at > >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living > >>> here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social > >>> security check. > >>> > >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people > >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. > >>> > >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way > >>> less stressed about the future. > >>> > >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to > >>> learn more. > >>> > >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive > >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for > >>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the > >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that > >>> the need is there, particularly for those from > >>> 18 > >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if > you're > >>> in > >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and > >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you > >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > >>> > >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sam > >>> > >>> Video links: > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmai > >>> l.co > >>> m > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmai > l.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gm > ail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 00:06:35 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:06:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net><000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> When you say supported living could you please xplaine Sam? Do you have a secondary disability? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Hi Suzanne, > I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. > That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. > I'm glad. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or > somewhere > in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San Diego City > School > District offered summer school called daily living skills for blind and > visually impaired. I started going when I was in first grade. My regular > school year was mainstream. Anyway, the program taught cooking we each > went > to the store, bought the items needed and then cooked whatever recipe it > was > that week. We were also taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a > variety of other things to be independent. Some children needed to be > taught > more than others based on how independent they were at home and how their > parents encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to > be > exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took the > train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition things > like sewing... > > Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at > home > became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. > > this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. > > Suzanne > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> Hi Gloria, >> I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! >> Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. >> What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I >> think respect should be given to those who's views may be different >> from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >> > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >> > to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> > They have more NFB-centered views! >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> > >> > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >> > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >> > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually >> > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need >> > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in >> > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is offered >> > in > each apartment. >> > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm >> > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. >> > Sincerely, >> > Hope Paulos >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >> >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different >> >> list of blind >> >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >> >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >> >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >> >> moment, it's just not for me. >> >> >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to >> >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >> >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >> >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >> >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >> >> talents and personalitys. >> >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >> >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >> >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >> >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >> >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, >> >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very >> >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others >> >> with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not >> >> that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes >> >> tease him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) >> >> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your > perspective. >> >> I >> >> hope to get to know you all better. >> >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >> >> Cadigan >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> >> Chicago >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >> >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying >> >> to >> tell >> us. >> >> Sam >> >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >> >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his >> >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't >> >> speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam >> >> and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not >> >> being so called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >> >>> >> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >> >>> me, as >> >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing >> >>> lists. >> I >> >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >> >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >> >>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >>> >> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >> >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >> >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >>> >> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >>> >> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services >> >>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond >> >>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >>> >> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >> >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities >> >>> provided including: >> bingo, >> >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >> >>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >> >>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >>> >> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. >> >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >> >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman >> >>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community >> >>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and >> >>> support from staff. This could be someone who's >> >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >> >>> trying >> >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >> >>> doesn't have or want >> >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> be >> >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so >> >>> would would do >> >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> feeling >> >>> of >> >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall >> >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just >> >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >> >>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments >> >>> are in really >> >> bad neighborhoods. >> >>> >> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >> >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a >> >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the >> >>> city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. >> >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with >> >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also >> >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel >> >>> the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >> >>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group >> >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in >> >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as >> >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the >> >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to >> >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick >> >>> background check form for safety. >> >>> >> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >> >>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >> >>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >> >>> friendships for the first time in my life. >> >>> >> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at >> >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living >> >>> here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social >> >>> security check. >> >>> >> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >> >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >>> >> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> >>> less stressed about the future. >> >>> >> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >> >>> learn more. >> >>> >> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >> >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for >> >>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the >> >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that >> >>> the need is there, particularly for those from >> >>> 18 >> >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the >> >>> age >> >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> you're >> >>> in >> >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >> >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of > you. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Sam >> >>> >> >>> Video links: >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmai >> >>> l.co >> >>> m >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >> on.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmai >> l.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> a.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gm >> ail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >> on.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 00:34:51 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:34:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a very quick email Message-ID: <5164B3AB.2000404@gmail.com> Hello everyone, it's very nice to meet you all. as you will see from my signature, I'm a very busy guy so me going to keep this sort. I'm a journalism major in Chicago. If you want to know more about me or the work that I have done then feel free to look at my signature and the llinks in it. I'm an open book. I live at Friedman place, a not for profit assisted living facility for the blind and the visually impaired. /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! http://t.co/W4jzSgWgQF Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 00:40:44 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 20:40:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> Sam. My major is rehabilitation counseling. My plan is to obtain a phd afterwards. I like singing, reading working out cultural events, and my major, especially the writing part. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sam Nelson Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:55 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Justin, I'm happy I'm happy too LOL! Thank you! So where are you from? Are you in school? I went to Lesley university and got my BS in counseling psychology. What do you like to do for fun? I like singing, reading, making youtube videos and just hanging out. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 8:50 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, that sounds like a good situation for you. It appears as if you have a good group of staff and residence to call family. I'm happy you're happy; how about that...! (Grin). -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Dear Sam and all, As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when others share with us their experiences and their resources. Thank you Sam for the information. Thanks. Mary Fernandez On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What > > works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >> to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> They have more NFB-centered views! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >> facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >> subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. >> Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need be >> orientation and mobility services, and >> >> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. >> A full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation >> services >> >> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from >> Maine >> >> mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >>> of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked >>> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this >>> moment, it's just not for >>> >>> me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >>> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>> talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> CP. But no one really dwells >>> >>> on >>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>> great sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to >>> advocate with and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks >>> in my mind, about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. >>> (though I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those >>> service monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And >>> everyone for your perspective. >>> >>> I >>> hope to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >>> tell us. >>> Sam >>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> This >>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best >>> option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak >>> for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and >>> welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not being so >>> called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>> >>> a >>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from >>>> me, as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>> I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services >>>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond >>>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities >>>> provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, >>>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move >>>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman >>>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community >>>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support >>>> from staff. This could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>>> doesn't have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>> be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >>>> really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city >>>> for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each >>>> resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly >>>> to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking >>>> about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >>>> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person >>>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, >>>> all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check >>>> form for safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>> check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> learn more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for >>>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research >>>> I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is >>>> there, particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail >>>> .co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.co m >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 00:41:43 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 20:41:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <013201ce34bb$028ae9b0$07a0bd10$@gmail.com> I don't know how to make you tube videos. After the semester, I got get with you on that one. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sam Nelson Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:49 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Suzanne, I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. I'm glad. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others based on how independent they were at home and how their parents encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition things like sewing... Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. Suzanne On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Gloria, > I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! > Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. > What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option > > to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. > > They have more NFB-centered views! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos > > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount > > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar > > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a > > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually > > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need > > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in > > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is > > offered in each apartment. > > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm > > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. > > Sincerely, > > Hope Paulos > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > > > >> Hi Mark and everyone, > >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers > >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different > >> list of blind > >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have > >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked > >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this > >> moment, it's just not for me. > >> > >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to > >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a > >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a > >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the > >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills > >> talents and personalitys. > >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in > >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see > >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, > >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has > >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, > >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very > >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others > >> with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not > >> that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes > >> tease him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) > >> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. > >> I > >> hope to get to know you all better. > >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. > >> Cadigan > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at > >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in > >> Chicago > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the > >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying > >> to > tell > us. > >> Sam > >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. > >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his > >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't > >> speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam > >> and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not > >> being so called "independent enough." > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Sam Nelson" > >> To: > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > >> > >> > >>> Hi Everyone, > >>> > >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from > >>> me, as > >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. > I > >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful > >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me > >>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > >>> > >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and > >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community > >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > >>> > >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > >>> > >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services > >>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond > >>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > >>> > >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as > >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just > >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities > >>> provided including: > bingo, > >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, > >>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move > >>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > >>> > >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. > >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues > >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman > >>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community > >>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and > >>> support from staff. This could be someone who's > >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > >>> trying > >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who > >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason > >>> doesn't have or want > >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could > be > >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would > >>> would do > >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a > feeling > >>> of > >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall > >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just > >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for > >>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments > >>> are in really > >> bad neighborhoods. > >>> > >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they > >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a > >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the > >>> city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. > >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with > >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also > >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel > >>> the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person > >>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group > >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in > >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as > >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the > >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to > >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick > >>> background check form for safety. > >>> > >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really > >>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has > >>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid > >>> friendships for the first time in my life. > >>> > >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at > >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living > >>> here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social > >>> security check. > >>> > >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people > >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. > >>> > >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way > >>> less stressed about the future. > >>> > >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to > >>> learn more. > >>> > >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive > >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for > >>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the > >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that > >>> the need is there, particularly for those from > >>> 18 > >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if > you're > >>> in > >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and > >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you > >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > >>> > >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sam > >>> > >>> Video links: > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmai > >>> l.co > >>> m > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmai > l.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gm > ail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 00:47:55 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:47:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <013201ce34bb$028ae9b0$07a0bd10$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <013201ce34bb$028ae9b0$07a0bd10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701ce3585$0b15bea0$21413be0$@verizon.net> Hi Justin, Ok, I'll be glad to help you with this! I didn't know how to make videos either until I got a new laptop with a webcam. Now I love it! It's like Sam TV LOL! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 7:42 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago I don't know how to make you tube videos. After the semester, I got get with you on that one. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sam Nelson Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:49 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Suzanne, I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. I'm glad. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others based on how independent they were at home and how their parents encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition things like sewing... Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. Suzanne On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Gloria, > I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! > Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. > What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I > think respect should be given to those who's views may be different > from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option > > to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. > > They have more NFB-centered views! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos > > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount > > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar > > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a > > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually > > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need > > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in > > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is > > offered in each apartment. > > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm > > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. > > Sincerely, > > Hope Paulos > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > > > >> Hi Mark and everyone, > >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers > >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different > >> list of blind > >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have > >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked > >> at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at this > >> moment, it's just not for me. > >> > >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to > >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a > >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a > >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the > >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills > >> talents and personalitys. > >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in > >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see > >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, > >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has > >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, > >> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very > >> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others > >> with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not > >> that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes > >> tease him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) > >> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. > >> I > >> hope to get to know you all better. > >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. > >> Cadigan > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at > >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in > >> Chicago > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the > >> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying > >> to > tell > us. > >> Sam > >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. > >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his > >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't > >> speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam > >> and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for not > >> being so called "independent enough." > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Sam Nelson" > >> To: > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > >> > >> > >>> Hi Everyone, > >>> > >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from > >>> me, as > >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. > I > >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful > >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me > >>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > >>> > >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and > >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community > >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > >>> > >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > >>> > >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > >>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services > >>> are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond > >>> that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > >>> > >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as > >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just > >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities > >>> provided including: > bingo, > >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, > >>> e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move > >>> to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > >>> > >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. > >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues > >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman > >>> is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community > >>> environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and > >>> support from staff. This could be someone who's > >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > >>> trying > >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who > >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason > >>> doesn't have or want > >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could > be > >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would > >>> would do > >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a > feeling > >>> of > >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall > >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just > >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for > >>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments > >>> are in really > >> bad neighborhoods. > >>> > >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they > >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a > >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the > >>> city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. > >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with > >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also > >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel > >>> the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person > >>> who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group > >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in > >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as > >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the > >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to > >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick > >>> background check form for safety. > >>> > >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really > >>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has > >>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid > >>> friendships for the first time in my life. > >>> > >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at > >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living > >>> here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social > >>> security check. > >>> > >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people > >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. > >>> > >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way > >>> less stressed about the future. > >>> > >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to > >>> learn more. > >>> > >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive > >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for > >>> similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the > >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that > >>> the need is there, particularly for those from > >>> 18 > >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if > you're > >>> in > >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and > >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you > >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > >>> > >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sam > >>> > >>> Video links: > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmai > >>> l.co > >>> m > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmai > l.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gm > ail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 00:54:11 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:54:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net><000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> Hi RJ, Thanks for your question. Supportive living to me is just a term. It means that you have your own apartment and the freedom to do what you want and make your own decisions, yet there is support, as in activities provided, medical help, companionship, a sense of security, ETC when you need it. There's probably an official definition, but for now that's the best explanation I can give. I consider it a balance between being totally on one's own and being say in a nursing home or something. As I said before, some people live in this situation temporarily, others choose to call it home. It's whatever works. Before I answer your question I'll say again that I don't feel anyone's secondary disability is such an issue. Yes many residents do have a secondary disability, whether that's being in a wheelchair, chronic physical health issues, CP, Autism, or other mental illness. BBut some don't have a secondary disability, and they still are qualified to come live here. To live here you just have to be 22 or over and blind or visually impaired. You don't need to have another disability to be here, though many do. And yes, I do struggle with some mental health issues. And the support I get here helps a lot with those. Thanks again for your question. If there's anything else you want to know, feel free to ask. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago When you say supported living could you please xplaine Sam? Do you have a secondary disability? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Hi Suzanne, > I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. > That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. > I'm glad. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or > somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San > Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living > skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in > first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the > program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items > needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also > taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things > to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others > based on how independent they were at home and how their parents > encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be > exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took > the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition > things like sewing... > > Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at > home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. > > this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. > > Suzanne > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> Hi Gloria, >> I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's full! >> Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> >> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. >> What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, >> I think respect should be given to those who's views may be different >> from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> >> >> > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >> > to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >> > They have more NFB-centered views! >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >> > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> > >> > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >> > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >> > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >> > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually >> > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need >> > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in >> > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is >> > offered in > each apartment. >> > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm >> > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. >> > Sincerely, >> > Hope Paulos >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Mark and everyone, >> >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >> >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different >> >> list of blind >> >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >> >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have >> >> looked at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at >> >> this moment, it's just not for me. >> >> >> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to >> >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >> >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >> >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >> >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >> >> talents and personalitys. >> >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >> >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >> >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >> >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >> >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at >> >> computers, extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, >> >> and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for >> >> others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him >> >> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do >> >> sometimes tease him that he should get one of those service >> >> monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone >> >> for your > perspective. >> >> I >> >> hope to get to know you all better. >> >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >> >> Cadigan >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> >> Chicago >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at >> >> the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is >> >> trying to >> tell >> us. >> >> Sam >> >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >> >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his >> >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and >> >> can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive >> >> of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for >> >> not being so called "independent enough." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >> >>> >> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already >> >>> from me, as >> >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing >> >>> lists. >> I >> >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >> >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to >> >>> me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >>> >> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >> >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >> >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >>> >> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >>> >> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there >> >>> is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping >> >>> services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, >> >>> but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >>> >> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >> >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of >> >>> activities provided including: >> bingo, >> >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support >> >>> group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger >> >>> people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >>> >> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. >> >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >> >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for >> >>> Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a >> >>> community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security >> >>> and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >> >>> trying >> >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever >> >>> reason doesn't have or want >> >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >> be >> >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so >> >>> would would do >> >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >> feeling >> >>> of >> >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall >> >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just >> >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >> >>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing >> >>> apartments are in really >> >> bad neighborhoods. >> >>> >> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >> >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a >> >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the >> >>> city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. >> >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with >> >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also >> >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel >> >>> the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly >> >>> person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group >> >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in >> >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as >> >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the >> >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to >> >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick >> >>> background check form for safety. >> >>> >> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >> >>> really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past >> >>> has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >> >>> friendships for the first time in my life. >> >>> >> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at >> >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living >> >>> here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social >> >>> security check. >> >>> >> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >> >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >>> >> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> >>> less stressed about the future. >> >>> >> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >> >>> learn more. >> >>> >> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >> >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate >> >>> for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the >> >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that >> >>> the need is there, particularly for those from >> >>> 18 >> >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish >> >>> the age >> >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >> you're >> >>> in >> >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >> >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more >> >>> of > you. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Sam >> >>> >> >>> Video links: >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gma >> >>> i >> >>> l.co >> >>> m >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >> z >> on.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gma >> i >> l.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pcc >> u >> a.edu >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40g >> m >> ail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >> z >> on.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.ed >> u >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu > r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 01:09:59 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:09:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 01:10:14 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:10:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5164BBF6.7010807@gmail.com> I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 01:13:30 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:13:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Friedman Place and Upward Mobility Message-ID: Hi Sam, Firstly, welcome to the list. My name is Arielle Silverman and I am a blind doctoral student in social psychology at the University of Colorado Boulder. I'd be glad to talk on or off-list about career options in psychology and post-graduate programs if you are interested. I was also a board member, vice-president and president of NABS from 2005-2011 and still serve on the board for my local NFB chapter and state student division. Because of these roles I am sometimes in a position to give recommendations to blind youth and/or their parents about resources. I was intrigued to learn about your experiences at Friedman Place and I'm glad that you are happy there. I guess I just have a few more questions I hope you might be able to answer so I can decide whether or not to recommend a place like this to others. Keep in mind, I am one who believes that every blind person is capable of getting a job, marrying, raising a family or doing anything else that they so desire, so I generally only recommend resources that help folks achieve those goals. I am wondering whether being at a place like Friedman helps people get closer to being employed and no longer needing social security or Medicaid. To your knowledge, about what percentage of the people living at Friedman have full-time jobs, or do you know about how many of the folks who decide to transition out of Friedman end up getting full-time jobs? Also, if someone starts earning enough to no longer get social security, is that person no longer able to live at Friedman? How much time are they allowed to be off social security before they have to leave? If that's the case, I worry that living at Friedman could discourage people from seeking out high-paying jobs, because they would be concerned about losing their housing. If that's not an issue, though, please enlighten me. I also have some concerns/questions about relationships. If two residents at Friedman fell in love and decided to get married, would that work? Could they stay at Friedman or would they have to get their own apartment or house somewhere else? Are there married couples or families living there? Or what happens if you had a serious partner who wasn't blind and so didn't live there? Thanks for any information you can give me about these issues. Best, Arielle From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 01:21:54 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:21:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Message-ID: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> Hi. My name is Robert Kingett. I want to introduce myself. I'm blind and I have cerebral palsy, but I'm passionate, persistent, and persuasive. I am dreamy, peaceful, and youthful. Optimistic and caring, I tend to see the best in people. I tend to be always smiling - and making others smile. I am shy and intelligent... and a very hard worker. To prove this, I'm a traveling motivational speaker, and I'm a writer for all kinds of things. Book critic, editorialist, movie critic, and I'm also a freelance editor who's in college. I am dependable, popular to a point. I am not swarming with friends but at the same time, I have a lot of them. I am also observant. Deep and thoughtful, I always think about what I am going to do and what will happen, if I do it. I am unique, creative, and expressive. These traits help a lot because I'm a writer who doesn't mind waving his freak flag every now and then. Until then, I'm an old soul. My hobbies, in short, are reading, playing, and writing reviews for video games after I play them on my Xbox. , Blogging, dancing, going to the beach, theater, and museums, doing standup comedy, debating, watching movies and then writing a review afterwards, bowling, air hockey, finding and invading the nearest bookstore near me, swimming, eating, traveling, playing checkers, and cards. No, I don't play chess. I don't know how. I'm a food critic in my spare time as well. I'm also a huge advocate for the disabled. /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! http://t.co/W4jzSgWgQF Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 01:25:39 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:25:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601ce358a$502d2d20$f0878760$@verizon.net> Beautiful! So well said. You're amazing! I particularly liked what you said about independence being about being free. To me, something that was particularly meaningful to me about moving here was getting away from a difficult family situation. Even in college I felt trapped in a way, knowing that if I had breaks and things from school I'd have to face things at home that were very difficult for me, unless I stayed with friends which sometimes didn't happen. I was overjoyed when I found out about Friedman, did absolutely everything I could to apply and get in, and then knew that once I was there I could choose whether or for how long I returned to my family situation. To me, that's independence. Especially when another family member, perhaps even more affected than I, refused to do anything for himself to find a way out. And he is sighted, but his disability is being so emotionally broken down by another of my family members that he truly believed there was no way out, and that this is as good as his life would get. He was miserable but chose to do nothing. I hope that I can be a role model for a younger sighted sibling I have, who's close to 18 pritty soon. She's very strong willed herself, and no doubt will figure a way out. But she's been pretty affected to by everything, and I just hope her seeing that I found a way out will give her even more confidence that she can too. Thanks again Robert! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 8:10 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We're paying our bills and we're paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that's a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 01:34:42 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:34:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Friedman Place and Upward Mobility References: Message-ID: arielle those are some awesome questions. I am sitting here going why didn't I think of that. I would add that a instructor at the hadley school for the blind recommended this building. When I was researching places to live and work. I didn't think any more of it once I decided to place re-location farther down my list. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:13 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Friedman Place and Upward Mobility Hi Sam, Firstly, welcome to the list. My name is Arielle Silverman and I am a blind doctoral student in social psychology at the University of Colorado Boulder. I'd be glad to talk on or off-list about career options in psychology and post-graduate programs if you are interested. I was also a board member, vice-president and president of NABS from 2005-2011 and still serve on the board for my local NFB chapter and state student division. Because of these roles I am sometimes in a position to give recommendations to blind youth and/or their parents about resources. I was intrigued to learn about your experiences at Friedman Place and I'm glad that you are happy there. I guess I just have a few more questions I hope you might be able to answer so I can decide whether or not to recommend a place like this to others. Keep in mind, I am one who believes that every blind person is capable of getting a job, marrying, raising a family or doing anything else that they so desire, so I generally only recommend resources that help folks achieve those goals. I am wondering whether being at a place like Friedman helps people get closer to being employed and no longer needing social security or Medicaid. To your knowledge, about what percentage of the people living at Friedman have full-time jobs, or do you know about how many of the folks who decide to transition out of Friedman end up getting full-time jobs? Also, if someone starts earning enough to no longer get social security, is that person no longer able to live at Friedman? How much time are they allowed to be off social security before they have to leave? If that's the case, I worry that living at Friedman could discourage people from seeking out high-paying jobs, because they would be concerned about losing their housing. If that's not an issue, though, please enlighten me. I also have some concerns/questions about relationships. If two residents at Friedman fell in love and decided to get married, would that work? Could they stay at Friedman or would they have to get their own apartment or house somewhere else? Are there married couples or families living there? Or what happens if you had a serious partner who wasn't blind and so didn't live there? Thanks for any information you can give me about these issues. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 01:39:11 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:39:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: Welcome to the list Robert. I am a student getting my second bachelor's in august. This is a very good list. It can get pretty busy at times. Hope that you will enjoy it. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert William Kingett" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:21 PM Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Hi. My name is Robert Kingett. I want to introduce myself. I'm blind and I have cerebral palsy, but I'm passionate, persistent, and persuasive. I am dreamy, peaceful, and youthful. Optimistic and caring, I tend to see the best in people. I tend to be always smiling - and making others smile. I am shy and intelligent... and a very hard worker. To prove this, I'm a traveling motivational speaker, and I'm a writer for all kinds of things. Book critic, editorialist, movie critic, and I'm also a freelance editor who's in college. I am dependable, popular to a point. I am not swarming with friends but at the same time, I have a lot of them. I am also observant. Deep and thoughtful, I always think about what I am going to do and what will happen, if I do it. I am unique, creative, and expressive. These traits help a lot because I'm a writer who doesn't mind waving his freak flag every now and then. Until then, I'm an old soul. My hobbies, in short, are reading, playing, and writing reviews for video games after I play them on my Xbox. , Blogging, dancing, going to the beach, theater, and museums, doing standup comedy, debating, watching movies and then writing a review afterwards, bowling, air hockey, finding and invading the nearest bookstore near me, swimming, eating, traveling, playing checkers, and cards. No, I don't play chess. I don't know how. I'm a food critic in my spare time as well. I'm also a huge advocate for the disabled. /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! http://t.co/W4jzSgWgQF Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 01:40:33 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:40:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <001201ce357b$9251ffa0$b6f5fee0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4696C74378994000BE5FA5BC5BDEE652@HP30910210001> Sam, Yes, Pj is my dog and my sounding board, and my intertainment at times. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place,a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Mellisa, You're welcome! I appreciate your comment. I agree. I assume PJ is your dog? Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 1:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, thank you for sharing your experience. Its whatever works for you. that is the philosophy that I bide by. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:43 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Everyone, First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my life. There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all up to the person. I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less stressed about the future. At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn more. Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. Sam Video links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 02:29:31 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 22:29:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> Message-ID: I'm wondering why the requirement is that you have to be at least 22? That seems like a rather odd designation. Why not 18 or 21? I'm just curious. I have to say this is a very interesting thread. On 4/9/13, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi RJ, > Thanks for your question. Supportive living to me is just a term. It means > that you have your own apartment and the freedom to do what you want and > make your own decisions, yet there is support, as in activities provided, > medical help, companionship, a sense of security, ETC when you need it. > There's probably an official definition, but for now that's the best > explanation I can give. I consider it a balance between being totally on > one's own and being say in a nursing home or something. As I said before, > some people live in this situation temporarily, others choose to call it > home. It's whatever works. > Before I answer your question I'll say again that I don't feel anyone's > secondary disability is such an issue. Yes many residents do have a > secondary disability, whether that's being in a wheelchair, chronic > physical health issues, CP, Autism, or other mental illness. BBut some > don't have a secondary disability, and they still are qualified to come > live > here. To live here you just have to be 22 or over and blind or visually > impaired. You don't need to have another disability to be here, though > many > do. > And yes, I do struggle with some mental health issues. And the support I > get here helps a lot with those. > Thanks again for your question. If there's anything else you want to know, > feel free to ask. > Sam > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > When you say supported living could you please xplaine Sam? Do you have a > secondary disability? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:48 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> Hi Suzanne, >> I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. >> That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. >> I'm glad. >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or >> somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San >> Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living >> skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in >> first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the >> program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items >> needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also >> taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things >> to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others >> based on how independent they were at home and how their parents >> encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be >> exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took >> the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition >> things like sewing... >> >> Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at >> home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. >> >> this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. >> >> Suzanne >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gloria, >>> I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's >>> full! >>> Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. >>> Sam >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. >>> What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, >>> I think respect should be given to those who's views may be different >>> from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> >>> > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >>> > to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >>> > They have more NFB-centered views! >>> > Blessings, Joshua >>> > ________________________________________ >>> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >>> > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> > >>> > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >>> > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >>> > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >>> > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually >>> > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need >>> > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in >>> > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is >>> > offered in >> each apartment. >>> > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm >>> > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. >>> > Sincerely, >>> > Hope Paulos >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different >>> >> list of blind >>> >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>> >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have >>> >> looked at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at >>> >> this moment, it's just not for me. >>> >> >>> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to >>> >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>> >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >>> >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>> >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>> >> talents and personalitys. >>> >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at >>> >> computers, extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, >>> >> and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for >>> >> others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him >>> >> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do >>> >> sometimes tease him that he should get one of those service >>> >> monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone >>> >> for your >> perspective. >>> >> I >>> >> hope to get to know you all better. >>> >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> >> Cadigan >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> >> Chicago >>> >> >>> >> Hi all, >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at >>> >> the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is >>> >> trying to >>> tell >>> us. >>> >> Sam >>> >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his >>> >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and >>> >> can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive >>> >> of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for >>> >> not being so called "independent enough." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> >>> >> Mark >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> >> To: >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> >>> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already >>> >>> from me, as >>> >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing >>> >>> lists. >>> I >>> >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>> >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to >>> >>> me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term > living. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>> >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>> >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>> >>> >>> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>> >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>> >>> >>> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>> >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there >>> >>> is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping >>> >>> services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, >>> >>> but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining > room. >>> >>> >>> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>> >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>> >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of >>> >>> activities provided including: >>> bingo, >>> >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support >>> >>> group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger >>> >>> people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect > that. >>> >>> >>> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. >>> >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>> >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for >>> >>> Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a >>> >>> community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security >>> >>> and support from staff. This could be someone who's >>> >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>> >>> trying >>> >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>> >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever >>> >>> reason doesn't have or want >>> >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It >>> >>> could >>> be >>> >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so >>> >>> would would do >>> >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>> feeling >>> >>> of >>> >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall >>> >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just >>> >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >>> >>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing >>> >>> apartments are in really >>> >> bad neighborhoods. >>> >>> >>> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>> >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a >>> >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the >>> >>> city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. >>> >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with >>> >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also >>> >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel >>> >>> the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly >>> >>> person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group >>> >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in >>> >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as >>> >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the >>> >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to >>> >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick >>> >>> background check form for safety. >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >>> >>> really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past >>> >>> has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>> >>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at >>> >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living >>> >>> here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social >>> >>> security check. >>> >>> >>> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>> >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>> >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>> >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>> >>> >>> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>> >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>> >>> less stressed about the future. >>> >>> >>> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>> >>> learn more. >>> >>> >>> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>> >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate >>> >>> for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the >>> >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that >>> >>> the need is there, particularly for those from >>> >>> 18 >>> >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish >>> >>> the age >>> >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>> you're >>> >>> in >>> >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>> >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>> >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more >>> >>> of >> you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> >>> >>> Video links: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gma >>> >>> i >>> >>> l.co >>> >>> m >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >>> z >>> on.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gma >>> i >>> l.com >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pcc >>> u >>> a.edu >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40g >>> m >>> ail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >>> z >>> on.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.ed >>> u >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >> on.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu >> r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 02:37:54 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:37:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] re post. my experience here at Friedman In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5164D082.7000707@gmail.com> I am very sorry but I am not sure if I posted this correctly or not. below are my thoughts on Friedman. If you have read it then just delete this message. I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 02:42:14 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:42:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014101ce34cb$d8bb92e0$8a32b8a0$@gmail.com> You are fantastic. It is great to have you. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:22 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Hi. My name is Robert Kingett. I want to introduce myself. I'm blind and I have cerebral palsy, but I'm passionate, persistent, and persuasive. I am dreamy, peaceful, and youthful. Optimistic and caring, I tend to see the best in people. I tend to be always smiling - and making others smile. I am shy and intelligent... and a very hard worker. To prove this, I'm a traveling motivational speaker, and I'm a writer for all kinds of things. Book critic, editorialist, movie critic, and I'm also a freelance editor who's in college. I am dependable, popular to a point. I am not swarming with friends but at the same time, I have a lot of them. I am also observant. Deep and thoughtful, I always think about what I am going to do and what will happen, if I do it. I am unique, creative, and expressive. These traits help a lot because I'm a writer who doesn't mind waving his freak flag every now and then. Until then, I'm an old soul. My hobbies, in short, are reading, playing, and writing reviews for video games after I play them on my Xbox. , Blogging, dancing, going to the beach, theater, and museums, doing standup comedy, debating, watching movies and then writing a review afterwards, bowling, air hockey, finding and invading the nearest bookstore near me, swimming, eating, traveling, playing checkers, and cards. No, I don't play chess. I don't know how. I'm a food critic in my spare time as well. I'm also a huge advocate for the disabled. /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! http://t.co/W4jzSgWgQF Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 02:43:34 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:43:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] my writings and such In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5164D1D6.5010009@gmail.com> Just in case people become bored, all of my internet hangouts are below! :) /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! http://t.co/W4jzSgWgQF Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 02:40:27 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:40:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> Message-ID: I don't know, but I'm guessing it's because 22 is the oldest you can be before you legally have to finish high school and stop getting a lot of school-related disability services. Most of us graduate earlier than that, but students who are in certain special ed programs are often encouraged to (or choose to) stay as long as they can, and by their 22nd birthday they have to leave school and begin somewhere else. I'm guessing Friedman is kind of designed to pick up where those school services left off. Arielle On 4/9/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > I'm wondering why the requirement is that you have to be at least 22? > That seems like a rather odd designation. Why not 18 or 21? I'm just > curious. I have to say this is a very interesting thread. > > On 4/9/13, Sam Nelson wrote: >> Hi RJ, >> Thanks for your question. Supportive living to me is just a term. It >> means >> that you have your own apartment and the freedom to do what you want and >> make your own decisions, yet there is support, as in activities >> provided, >> medical help, companionship, a sense of security, ETC when you need it. >> There's probably an official definition, but for now that's the best >> explanation I can give. I consider it a balance between being totally on >> one's own and being say in a nursing home or something. As I said before, >> some people live in this situation temporarily, others choose to call it >> home. It's whatever works. >> Before I answer your question I'll say again that I don't feel anyone's >> secondary disability is such an issue. Yes many residents do have a >> secondary disability, whether that's being in a wheelchair, chronic >> physical health issues, CP, Autism, or other mental illness. BBut some >> don't have a secondary disability, and they still are qualified to come >> live >> here. To live here you just have to be 22 or over and blind or visually >> impaired. You don't need to have another disability to be here, though >> many >> do. >> And yes, I do struggle with some mental health issues. And the support I >> get here helps a lot with those. >> Thanks again for your question. If there's anything else you want to >> know, >> feel free to ask. >> Sam >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:07 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> When you say supported living could you please xplaine Sam? Do you have a >> secondary disability? RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >>> Hi Suzanne, >>> I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. >>> That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. >>> I'm glad. >>> Sam >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or >>> somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San >>> Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living >>> skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in >>> first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the >>> program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items >>> needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also >>> taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things >>> to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others >>> based on how independent they were at home and how their parents >>> encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be >>> exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took >>> the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were addition >>> things like sewing... >>> >>> Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything at >>> home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. >>> >>> this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if >>> anything. >>> >>> Suzanne >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Gloria, >>>> I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's >>>> full! >>>> Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>>> Chicago >>>> >>>> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. >>>> What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, >>>> I think respect should be given to those who's views may be different >>>> from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>>> Chicago >>>> >>>> >>>> > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option >>>> > to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >>>> > They have more NFB-centered views! >>>> > Blessings, Joshua >>>> > ________________________________________ >>>> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >>>> > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >>>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >>>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>>> > Friedman >>>> > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>>> > >>>> > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >>>> > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >>>> > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >>>> > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually >>>> > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need >>>> > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in >>>> > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is >>>> > offered in >>> each apartment. >>>> > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm >>>> > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. >>>> > Sincerely, >>>> > Hope Paulos >>>> > >>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >>>> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Hi Mark and everyone, >>>> >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>>> >> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different >>>> >> list of blind >>>> >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>>> >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have >>>> >> looked at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and at >>>> >> this moment, it's just not for me. >>>> >> >>>> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to >>>> >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>>> >> "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a >>>> >> real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>>> >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>>> >> talents and personalitys. >>>> >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>>> >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>>> >> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>>> >> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>>> >> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at >>>> >> computers, extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, >>>> >> and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for >>>> >> others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him >>>> >> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do >>>> >> sometimes tease him that he should get one of those service >>>> >> monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone >>>> >> for your >>> perspective. >>>> >> I >>>> >> hope to get to know you all better. >>>> >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>>> >> >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>>> >> Cadigan >>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>>> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>>> >> Chicago >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi all, >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at >>>> >> the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is >>>> >> trying to >>>> tell >>>> us. >>>> >> Sam >>>> >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>>> >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his >>>> >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and >>>> >> can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be supportive >>>> >> of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing him for >>>> >> not being so called "independent enough." >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks, >>>> >> >>>> >> Mark >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> From: "Sam Nelson" >>>> >> To: >>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>>> >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already >>>> >>> from me, as >>>> >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing >>>> >>> lists. >>>> I >>>> >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to >>>> >>> me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term >> living. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>>> >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>>> >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> >>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there >>>> >>> is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping >>>> >>> services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, >>>> >>> but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining >> room. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of >>>> >>> activities provided including: >>>> bingo, >>>> >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support >>>> >>> group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger >>>> >>> people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect >> that. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. >>>> >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>>> >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for >>>> >>> Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a >>>> >>> community environment, with a caring group of peers, and security >>>> >>> and support from staff. This could be someone who's >>>> >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school >>>> >>> and >>>> >>> trying >>>> >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> >>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever >>>> >>> reason doesn't have or want >>>> >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It >>>> >>> could >>>> be >>>> >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so >>>> >>> would would do >>>> >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>> feeling >>>> >>> of >>>> >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall >>>> >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just >>>> >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for >>>> >>> security reasons, as many low-income disability housing >>>> >>> apartments are in really >>>> >> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>>> >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a >>>> >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the >>>> >>> city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. >>>> >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with >>>> >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also >>>> >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel >>>> >>> the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly >>>> >>> person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group >>>> >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in >>>> >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as >>>> >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the >>>> >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to >>>> >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick >>>> >>> background check form for safety. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >>>> >>> really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past >>>> >>> has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> >>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at >>>> >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living >>>> >>> here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social >>>> >>> security check. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> >>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> >>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> >>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> >>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> >>> learn more. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>>> >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate >>>> >>> for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the >>>> >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that >>>> >>> the need is there, particularly for those from >>>> >>> 18 >>>> >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish >>>> >>> the age >>>> >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>> you're >>>> >>> in >>>> >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> >>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more >>>> >>> of >>> you. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Sam >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Video links: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >>> for >>>> >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gma >>>> >>> i >>>> >>> l.co >>>> >>> m >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >>>> z >>>> on.net >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gma >>>> i >>>> l.com >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pcc >>>> u >>>> a.edu >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40g >>>> m >>>> ail.co >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >>>> z >>>> on.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.ed >>>> u >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >>> on.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 10 02:54:59 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 22:54:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: Melissa, What is your bacehlor's in? -----Original Message----- From: melissa Green Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing myself Welcome to the list Robert. I am a student getting my second bachelor's in august. This is a very good list. It can get pretty busy at times. Hope that you will enjoy it. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert William Kingett" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:21 PM Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Hi. My name is Robert Kingett. I want to introduce myself. I'm blind and I have cerebral palsy, but I'm passionate, persistent, and persuasive. I am dreamy, peaceful, and youthful. Optimistic and caring, I tend to see the best in people. I tend to be always smiling - and making others smile. I am shy and intelligent... and a very hard worker. To prove this, I'm a traveling motivational speaker, and I'm a writer for all kinds of things. Book critic, editorialist, movie critic, and I'm also a freelance editor who's in college. I am dependable, popular to a point. I am not swarming with friends but at the same time, I have a lot of them. I am also observant. Deep and thoughtful, I always think about what I am going to do and what will happen, if I do it. I am unique, creative, and expressive. These traits help a lot because I'm a writer who doesn't mind waving his freak flag every now and then. Until then, I'm an old soul. My hobbies, in short, are reading, playing, and writing reviews for video games after I play them on my Xbox. , Blogging, dancing, going to the beach, theater, and museums, doing standup comedy, debating, watching movies and then writing a review afterwards, bowling, air hockey, finding and invading the nearest bookstore near me, swimming, eating, traveling, playing checkers, and cards. No, I don't play chess. I don't know how. I'm a food critic in my spare time as well. I'm also a huge advocate for the disabled. /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! http://t.co/W4jzSgWgQF Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 10 02:57:22 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 22:57:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <5164BBF6.7010807@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net><7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395><000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net><007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com><000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net><013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBF6.7010807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <655065E33D5C411B943004B63F8A76B8@OwnerPC> Robert, Thanks for sharing your perspective. I don't have enough time to comment on a deep issue like this. In short though, I agree with you. Independence means different things to different people. Living on your own takes so much responsibility. If we think of it, most people, and I mean sighted nondisabled people, often don't want to live alone. Why? Because we like companionship and interdependence despite the notion of American society of independence and individualism. People want someone to confide in; someone to share the chores and cooking with, and someone to act as a security buffer. If you feel free enough and independent, that is what matters. It may not follow NFB philosophy completely since the philosophy supports integration into society meaning we live in the same housing as everyone else. But IMO you should not base your life on one philosophy. Do what is best for your individual circumstances and live life to its fullest. Nice thread. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Robert William Kingett Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:10 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 02:40:55 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:40:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5164D137.1080608@gmail.com> I'm wondering that as well. I've been looking into that ever since I have arrived here. I wasn't able to find much but it's a state of Illinois designation, not a Friedman one. It's in accordance with the supportive living policies of Illinois. I haven’t been able to find an answer to your question so I can't answer this fully. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 10 03:00:27 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:00:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6342CC8D8841078827D812218FDC87@OwnerPC> try the nls library. they likely have it since it’s a classic. -----Original Message----- From: Helga Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 12:37 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter Hi, Where can I find some modern English Translation of The Scarlet Letter in a Braille format? I was just wondering because I really like to read it it in Braille more than than in Electronic format. Thanks so much. -----Original Message--- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 12:16 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter Hi, For research try google and any library databases you might have access to through your school. I did a report on the Scarlet letter a few years ago when I was in a high school honors English class, so I can say that plenty of sources should come up covering a wide range of specific topics if you google. All the suggestions Ashley gave for understanding the text of the book itself are good. It also might be good to look at some modern english translations of things written in that style if you haven't read that colonial style of English before. (In high school when we read The Taming of the Shrew my teacher made us match the modern day english translations of the lines with the original words from the script, and the year before when we read McBeth my teacher actually wrote out a slang version of the first scene for us to read. Hearing them in a context you're used to really helps you get the translation down). Good luck. On 4/9/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hello, > well, you already did my first suggestion. I was going to suggest read in > braille! For many people, reading word by word in braille equates to a > better understanding and its easier to analyze the text by reading and > rereading certain parts. > > I'm not sure what to suggest with out knowing what type of essay it is. > All I can think of is reading plot summaries from sparknotes or similar > source. > Discuss it with a classmate. Maybe even ask a tutor at school for help; > many > schools offer free tutoring. > > Also, use a dictionary for unfamiliar terms. I think I read that book in > high school, but we must have read a different version as I do not recall > much old english in it. > > Is this course part of a major or general program? Have you taken a > literature class before? > I took a couple during my undergrad degree. > > Good luck. > -----Original Message----- > From: Helga Schreiber > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:53 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter > > Hi, I’m actually reading The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne in > order > to write a final exam paper that my Literature Professor will give us a > topic for. He will actually give us the topic of the paper next week, but > this book is hard to understand due to the old English from the 1800’s. My > professor told us that we need to read the entire book in order to write > this paper. Did you ever read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, > and > what do you recommend me to do in order for me to understand The Scarlet > letter much better? Actually, my brother help me find some summaries of > the > whole book, but What other sources I can use in order to understand this > book much better? I actually, have the book in Audio and Braille format, > but still it’s hard to understand it. What do you recommend me to do? By > the way, my paper will be due on Monday, April 29. Thank you so much. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:04:53 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:04:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5164D6D5.5050008@gmail.com> Thank you very much for the kind words. I have a question about something. if I wanted to start an LGBT division of the NFB whom should I write? I’d prefer email than phone, even though I do have the relay service for making calls, but email would be more accessible for my speech related needs. From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:10:08 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:10:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Scarlet Letter In-Reply-To: <4F6342CC8D8841078827D812218FDC87@OwnerPC> References: <4F6342CC8D8841078827D812218FDC87@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5164D810.4000504@gmail.com> the NLS has it in braile, From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Apr 10 03:15:36 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:15:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] re post. my experience here at Friedman In-Reply-To: <5164D082.7000707@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> <5164D082.7000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130409200304.01ff9c28@comcast.net> 'Evening, Robert William, Very well said! Those are exactly my reasons of not signing my life away to either camp and, I find much diverse knowledges from reading both the NFB, and ACB listservs. After all, despite which stripes we wear, in the end, we are all united by the same trait, varing degrees of sightlessness. I love your thoughts on independence and feel if the organization could change its thinking in that regard, and not be so consumed with the obvious, literal shades of independence or lack there of, and to give people that often illusive nod, because they have vulted to some illusive, 1-size fits all state of independence wich does in fact, remain illusive to many. Seems to me what would change the face of this organization exponentially, might be the embracing of being free, and happy. for today, Car37 PM 4/9/2013, Robert William Kingett wrote: >I am very sorry but I am not sure if I posted this correctly or not. >below are my thoughts on Friedman. If you have read it then just >delete this message. > >I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the >blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised >money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even >supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe >that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree >with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the >archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as >independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is >independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, >individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from >dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. >I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to >be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a >place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people >can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated >above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is >free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since >a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I >don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and >correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of >the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and >intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not >the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information >which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share >successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create >imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted >people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB >are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a >one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state >again, independence should be celebrated. We're paying our bills and >we're paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten >up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we >have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have >achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii >have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the >LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that >someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if >they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me >happy. Why? Because that's a blind person that has broken down the >stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, >and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're >an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does >feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated >because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those >beautifully independent people. > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From joshkart12 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:18:04 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:18:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] re post. my experience here at Friedman In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130409200304.01ff9c28@comcast.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> <5164D082.7000707@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130409200304.01ff9c28@comcast.net> Message-ID: Very well stated Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2013, at 11:15 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > 'Evening, Robert William, > > Very well said! Those are exactly my reasons of not signing my life away to either camp and, I find much diverse knowledges from reading both the NFB, and ACB listservs. After all, despite which stripes we wear, in the end, we are all united by the same trait, varing degrees of sightlessness. I love your thoughts on independence and feel if the organization could change its thinking in that regard, and not be so consumed with the obvious, literal shades of independence or lack there of, and to give people that often illusive nod, because they have vulted to some illusive, 1-size fits all state of independence wich does in fact, remain illusive to many. Seems to me what would change the face of this organization exponentially, might be the embracing of being free, and happy. > for today, Car37 PM 4/9/2013, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> I am very sorry but I am not sure if I posted this correctly or not. below are my thoughts on Friedman. If you have read it then just delete this message. >> >> I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We're paying our bills and we're paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that's a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:25:02 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:25:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: <5164D6D5.5050008@gmail.com> References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> <5164D6D5.5050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Robert, I'm writing you off-list to answer your question about the LGBT division since it's kind of a political hot topic. A few LGBT folks in the NFB have tried to start an interest group in the past, but met a lot of resistance from some NFB leaders. They did still organize a few events and they might have an email list running. I am copying my friend Allison Hilliker, who helped organize the group, so she can fill you in on the group's status since I've lost track of it. Thanks for your interest! On 4/9/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Thank you very much for the kind words. I have a question about > something. if I wanted to start an LGBT division of the NFB whom should > I write? I’d prefer email than phone, even though I do have the relay > service for making calls, but email would be more accessible for my > speech related needs. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:26:07 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:26:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> <5164D6D5.5050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oops--I am having Internet issues and I intended to send this off-list, but that was not meant to be. Robert, I'll email you again off-list with my friend's contact. Sorry everybody! Arielle On 4/9/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Robert, > I'm writing you off-list to answer your question about the LGBT > division since it's kind of a political hot topic. A few LGBT folks in > the NFB have tried to start an interest group in the past, but met a > lot of resistance from some NFB leaders. They did still organize a few > events and they might have an email list running. I am copying my > friend Allison Hilliker, who helped organize the group, so she can > fill you in on the group's status since I've lost track of it. Thanks > for your interest! > > On 4/9/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Thank you very much for the kind words. I have a question about >> something. if I wanted to start an LGBT division of the NFB whom should >> I write? I’d prefer email than phone, even though I do have the relay >> service for making calls, but email would be more accessible for my >> speech related needs. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:28:10 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:28:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> <5164D6D5.5050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5164DC4A.7080201@gmail.com> thank you but this was on the list, smile. On 4/9/2013 10:25 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Robert, > I'm writing you off-list to answer your question about the LGBT > division since it's kind of a political hot topic. A few LGBT folks in > the NFB have tried to start an interest group in the past, but met a > lot of resistance from some NFB leaders. They did still organize a few > events and they might have an email list running. I am copying my > friend Allison Hilliker, who helped organize the group, so she can > fill you in on the group's status since I've lost track of it. Thanks > for your interest! > > On 4/9/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Thank you very much for the kind words. I have a question about >> something. if I wanted to start an LGBT division of the NFB whom should >> I write? I’d prefer email than phone, even though I do have the relay >> service for making calls, but email would be more accessible for my >> speech related needs. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kingettr%40gmail.com /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! http://t.co/W4jzSgWgQF Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it's only Monday! Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From joshkart12 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:29:37 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:29:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: References: <5164BEB2.6070001@gmail.com> <5164D6D5.5050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nope, sorry, you wrote on list. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2013, at 11:25 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Robert, > I'm writing you off-list to answer your question about the LGBT > division since it's kind of a political hot topic. A few LGBT folks in > the NFB have tried to start an interest group in the past, but met a > lot of resistance from some NFB leaders. They did still organize a few > events and they might have an email list running. I am copying my > friend Allison Hilliker, who helped organize the group, so she can > fill you in on the group's status since I've lost track of it. Thanks > for your interest! > > On 4/9/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Thank you very much for the kind words. I have a question about >> something. if I wanted to start an LGBT division of the NFB whom should >> I write? I’d prefer email than phone, even though I do have the relay >> service for making calls, but email would be more accessible for my >> speech related needs. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 02:42:36 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:42:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000901ce3522$9c4ceb90$d4e6c2b0$@verizon.net> <001201ce357c$caf87360$60e95a20$@verizon.net> <000301ce357f$44c0d550$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> <000801ce3585$eaec72d0$c0c55870$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000401ce3595$104687a0$30d396e0$@verizon.net> Hi Dezaray, The age requirement is a very good question. I have no idea, and very much wish it were 18 or 21, because I know of some people below 22 who would like to explore coming here, but need to wait. I hope that one day this changes, or SLFS are created specifically for 18-22 year olds if for some reason people feel that population would do better with it's own program. I've heard that there are many youth in that age range just in Chicago withnot a lot of options. It's sad. I'll let you know if things change on that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree Oudinot Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago I'm wondering why the requirement is that you have to be at least 22? That seems like a rather odd designation. Why not 18 or 21? I'm just curious. I have to say this is a very interesting thread. On 4/9/13, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi RJ, > Thanks for your question. Supportive living to me is just a term. It > means that you have your own apartment and the freedom to do what you > want and make your own decisions, yet there is support, as in > activities provided, medical help, companionship, a sense of security, ETC when you need it. > There's probably an official definition, but for now that's the best > explanation I can give. I consider it a balance between being totally > on one's own and being say in a nursing home or something. As I said > before, some people live in this situation temporarily, others choose > to call it home. It's whatever works. > Before I answer your question I'll say again that I don't feel > anyone's secondary disability is such an issue. Yes many residents do > have a secondary disability, whether that's being in a wheelchair, > chronic physical health issues, CP, Autism, or other mental illness. > BBut some don't have a secondary disability, and they still are > qualified to come live here. To live here you just have to be 22 or > over and blind or visually impaired. You don't need to have another > disability to be here, though many do. > And yes, I do struggle with some mental health issues. And the > support I get here helps a lot with those. > Thanks again for your question. If there's anything else you want to > know, feel free to ask. > Sam > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ > Sandefur > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > When you say supported living could you please xplaine Sam? Do you > have a secondary disability? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:48 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > >> Hi Suzanne, >> I've been blind since birth. I was born with ROP. >> That program you went to sounds like it was good for you. >> I'm glad. >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:23 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >> Chicago >> >> Sam, I was just wondering if you are newly blind or congenital or >> somewhere in between? I have been elgally blind sicne birth and San >> Diego City School District offered summer school called daily living >> skills for blind and visually impaired. I started going when I was in >> first grade. My regular school year was mainstream. Anyway, the >> program taught cooking we each went to the store, bought the items >> needed and then cooked whatever recipe it was that week. We were also >> taught housekeeping, personal grooming, and a variety of other things >> to be independent. Some children needed to be taught more than others >> based on how independent they were at home and how their parents >> encouraged independence. We also went on numerous field trips to be >> exposed to all kinds of things. We even flew to Los Angeles and took >> the train home to experience both kinds of travel. There were >> addition things like sewing... >> >> Many of the children who had never been allowed to cook or anything >> at home became extremely proficient in food preparation and cooking. >> >> this was back in the 1970s I am not sure what is offered now if anything. >> >> Suzanne >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sam Nelson >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gloria, >>> I agree thank you The place in Maine does sound good. Too bad it's >>> full! >>> Maybe one day another will be built, or there will be openings. >>> Sam >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria >>> G >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:47 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. >>> What works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, >>> I think respect should be given to those who's views may be >>> different from yours, and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> >>> > I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the >>> > option to cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >>> > They have more NFB-centered views! >>> > Blessings, Joshua >>> > ________________________________________ >>> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >>> > [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> > >>> > Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount >>> > Desert Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar >>> > facility called iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a >>> > subsidize housing for individuals who are blind or visually >>> > impaired. Assistance is given with shopping, nursing care, if need >>> > be orientation and mobility services, and people can eat either in >>> > the dining room or in their own apartments. A full kitchen is >>> > offered in >> each apartment. >>> > Vision rehabilitation services are also provided if need be. I'm >>> > quite surprised that nobody from Maine mentioned this to you. >>> > Sincerely, >>> > Hope Paulos >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> >> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training >>> >> centers that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a >>> >> different list of blind >>> >> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have >>> >> found them to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have >>> >> looked at their websites and read about the NFB philosophy and >>> >> at this moment, it's just not for me. >>> >> >>> >> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to >>> >> my knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as >>> >> a "charity case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there >>> >> is a real sense of family, and we give back in our own way to the >>> >> community as much as we get from it, with our own unique skills >>> >> talents and personalitys. >>> >> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> >> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't >>> >> see how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of >>> >> mine, moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, >>> >> and has CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at >>> >> computers, extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, >>> >> and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and >>> >> for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, >>> >> about him not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though >>> >> I do sometimes tease him that he should get one of those service >>> >> monkeys LOL!) Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone >>> >> for your >> perspective. >>> >> I >>> >> hope to get to know you all better. >>> >> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> >> Cadigan >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> >> Chicago >>> >> >>> >> Hi all, >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at >>> >> the three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is >>> >> trying to >>> tell >>> us. >>> >> Sam >>> >> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>> >> This solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his >>> >> best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and >>> >> can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to be >>> >> supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of >>> >> haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> >>> >> Mark >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> >> To: >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> >> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> >> Chicago >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> >>> >>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already >>> >>> from me, as >>> >>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing >>> >>> lists. >>> I >>> >>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>> >>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to >>> >>> me and could see it as an option for either short or long-term > living. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and >>> >>> moved this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community >>> >>> for blind adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>> >>> >>> >>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in >>> >>> the country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>> >>> >>> >>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>> >>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there >>> >>> is staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping >>> >>> services are optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, >>> >>> but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the >>> >>> dining > room. >>> >>> >>> >>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>> >>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>> >>> hanging out and talking with us. There are a variety of >>> >>> activities provided including: >>> bingo, >>> >>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support >>> >>> group, e exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger >>> >>> people move to the facility, the types of activitys will reflect > that. >>> >>> >>> >>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. >>> >>> This is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues >>> >>> probably wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for >>> >>> Friedman is someone who feels they want or need to live in a >>> >>> community environment, with a caring group of peers, and >>> >>> security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >>> >>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>> >>> trying >>> >>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone >>> >>> who just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever >>> >>> reason doesn't have or want >>> >>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It >>> >>> could >>> be >>> >>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so >>> >>> would would do >>> >>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>> feeling >>> >>> of >>> >>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall >>> >>> through the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just >>> >>> with a roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely >>> >>> for security reasons, as many low-income disability housing >>> >>> apartments are in really >>> >> bad neighborhoods. >>> >>> >>> >>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they >>> >>> want their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a >>> >>> solid homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in >>> >>> the city for volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. >>> >>> Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with >>> >>> regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and also >>> >>> talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I >>> >>> feel the social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly >>> >>> person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group >>> >>> home, or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in >>> >>> and out, for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as >>> >>> they please. They can have guests over til midnight without the >>> >>> guest having to get a background check. If they want guests to >>> >>> spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out a quick >>> >>> background check form for safety. >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it >>> >>> really is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past >>> >>> has isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>> >>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at >>> >>> Friedman, I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of >>> >>> living here is covered by medicade, as well as a portion of >>> >>> one's social security check. >>> >>> >>> >>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>> >>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to >>> >>> living completely on one's own. . Others have been here for >>> >>> years and consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>> >>> >>> >>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a >>> >>> safe supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have >>> >>> been way less stressed about the future. >>> >>> >>> >>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>> >>> learn more. >>> >>> >>> >>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive >>> >>> experience here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate >>> >>> for similar facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the >>> >>> research I have and hearing from many people, it's obvious that >>> >>> the need is there, particularly for those from >>> >>> 18 >>> >>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish >>> >>> the age >>> >>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>> you're >>> >>> in >>> >>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>> >>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of >>> >>> you want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more >>> >>> of >> you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> >>> >>> Video links: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>> info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gm >>> >>> a >>> >>> i >>> >>> l.co >>> >>> m >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40ver >>> i >>> z >>> on.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gm >>> a >>> i >>> l.com >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pc >>> c >>> u >>> a.edu >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40 >>> g >>> m >>> ail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40ver >>> i >>> z >>> on.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.e >>> d >>> u >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >> z >> on.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >> u >> r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gm > ail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 16:42:22 2013 From: mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com (Mauricio Almeida) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:42:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen way too many of this kind abroad. On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Sam! > First of all, welcome to the list! > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call > home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an > option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this > past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages > 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, > the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive > way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available > 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are > microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as > we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the > facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not > a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a > good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want > or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, > and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants > to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the > cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, > someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many > low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their > lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow > from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, > education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who > they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and > also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the > social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very > knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety > reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests > over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If > they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out > a quick background check form for safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a > family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I > feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my > life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm > really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by > medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for > six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on > one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all > up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here > at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be > opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many > people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 > to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon > things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this > other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed Apr 10 16:55:36 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:55:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mauricio, I do not know enough about your background or the backgrounds of others here living in this facility to judge the choices made, but I must say that I find it very, very sad if you believe that a blind person living on one's own is reserved for the "super- independent." Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:42:22 -0400, Mauricio Almeida wrote: >what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. >I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen way too many of this kind abroad. >On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Hi Sam! >> First of all, welcome to the list! >> I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. >> I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! >> Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! >> We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call >> home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an >> option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this >> past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages >> 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, >> the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive >> way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available >> 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are >> microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as >> we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the >> facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not >> a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a >> good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want >> or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, >> and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants >> to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the >> cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, >> someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many >> low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their >> lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow >> from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, >> education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who >> they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and >> also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very >> knowledgable about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety >> reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests >> over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If >> they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out >> a quick background check form for safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a >> family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I >> feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my >> life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm >> really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by >> medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for >> six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on >> one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all >> up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here >> at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be >> opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many >> people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 >> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon >> things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this >> other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From lrsj89 at aol.com Wed Apr 10 16:55:29 2013 From: lrsj89 at aol.com (lrsj89 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:55:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7833A2C4-A526-4703-B6C1-FA81F5FD897E@aol.com> I am happy that you are in a safe happy home. But you should always be independent. Sent from my iPod On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Mauricio Almeida wrote: > what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. > I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen way too many of this kind abroad. > On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Hi Sam! >> First of all, welcome to the list! >> I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. >> I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! >> Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! >> We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place I call >> home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could see it as an >> option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved this >> past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind adults ages >> 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the country, >> the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a positive >> way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is staff available >> 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are optional. There are >> microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we can't cook for ourselves as >> we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to the >> facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is not >> a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably wouldn't be a >> good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone who feels they want >> or need to live in a community environment, with a caring group of peers, >> and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just wants >> to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through the >> cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a roommate. Or, >> someone could want to move here purely for security reasons, as many >> low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want their >> lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid homebase to grow >> from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for volunteer or payed work, >> education, and socialization. Each resident is assigned a care advocate, who >> they meet with regularly to discuss issues going on either at Friedman and >> also talking about what they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the >> social worker in particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very >> knowledgable about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for safety >> reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They can have guests >> over til midnight without the guest having to get a background check. If >> they want guests to spend the night, all the person needs to do is fill out >> a quick background check form for safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is like a >> family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a lot. Here I >> feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the first time in my >> life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, I'm >> really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is covered by >> medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay for >> six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living completely on >> one's own. . Others have been here for years and consider it home. It's all >> up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience here >> at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar facilities to be >> opened in other states. Doing the research I have and hearing from many >> people, it's obvious that the need is there, particularly for those from 18 >> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe soon >> things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to discuss this >> other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lrsj89%40aol.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Wed Apr 10 17:25:57 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:25:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Good afternoon, I agree, all lists should should act as a resource as well as a safe place to openly discuss feelings, thoughts, and ideas. In no way was I out to insult NABS, NFB as a whole. I was just stating my personal feelings regarding attitudes I have seen across the organization over the years. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:39 AM, "Mary Fernandez" wrote: > Dear Sam and all, > As moderator of the student list, I am simply writing to affirm some > of the messages already sent by others. Remember that this list-serv > is for sharing resources, and it is meant to be a safe, welcoming > place for us to talk about issues that directly impact blind students > and young adults. That includes technology, school, socializing, and > yes housing among much much more. So please, keep and open mind when > others share with us their experiences and their resources. > Thank you Sam for the information. > Thanks. > Mary Fernandez > > On 4/9/13, Gloria G wrote: >> Please remember that each of us have different needs and perspectives. What >> >> works for one does not always work for another. In saying this, I think >> respect should be given to those who's views may be different from yours, >> and no one should force their beliefs on another person. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> >>> I'd like the ones in Maine better, because they give you the option to >>> cook for yourself, or eat in the dining room. >>> They have more NFB-centered views! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos >>> [hope.paulos at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:19 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert >>> Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called >>> iris Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for >>> individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with >>> shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and >>> >>> people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A >>> full kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services >>> >>> are also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine >>> >>> mentioned this to you. >>> Sincerely, >>> Hope Paulos >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers that >>>> Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list of blind >>>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found >>>> them >>>> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their >>>> websites >>>> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for >>>> >>>> me. >>>> >>>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a >>>> "charity >>>> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense of >>>> family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much as we >>>> get >>>> from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >>>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>>> addition >>>> to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see how that >>>> really >>>> matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, moved here in I >>>> believe >>>> November. He is visually impaired, and has CP. But no one really dwells >>>> >>>> on >>>> that. He's amazing at computers, extremely intelligent and with a >>>> great >>>> sense of humor, and very motivated and incouraging people to advocate >>>> with >>>> and for others with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about >>>> him >>>> not that he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes >>>> tease >>>> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) >>>> Thanks again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. >>>> >>>> I >>>> hope to get to know you all better. >>>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>>> Cadigan >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>>> three >>>> NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to tell us. >>>> Sam >>>> is just telling us about a solution he has found that works for him. >>>> This >>>> solution is not for everyone, but according to Sam it's his best option >>>> at >>>> the moment. We don't know Sam's situation, and can't speak for him, so >>>> I'm >>>> just asking everybody to be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the >>>> list, >>>> instead of haranguing him for not being so called "independent enough." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, >>>> >>>> a >>>> supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>> >>>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, >>>>> as >>>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. >>>>> I >>>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >>>>> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >>>>> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>>> >>>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>>>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>>>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>>> >>>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>>> >>>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>>>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>>>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>>> >>>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >>>>> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and >>>>> talking >>>>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: >>>>> bingo, >>>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>>>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>>>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>>> >>>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >>>>> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>>>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>>>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >>>>> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>>>> could be someone who's >>>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>>> trying >>>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >>>>> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >>>>> have or want >>>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could >>>>> be >>>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>>> would do >>>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a >>>>> feeling >>>>> of >>>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>>>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really >>>> bad neighborhoods. >>>>> >>>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>>>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>>>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>>>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>>>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >>>>> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>>>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable >>>>> about resources in the community. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >>>>> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >>>>> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >>>>> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >>>>> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >>>>> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >>>>> safety. >>>>> >>>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >>>>> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >>>>> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >>>>> first time in my life. >>>>> >>>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security >>>>> check. >>>>> >>>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >>>>> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>>> >>>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >>>>> stressed about the future. >>>>> >>>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >>>>> more. >>>>> >>>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>>>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>>>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>>>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>>>> particularly for those from >>>>> 18 >>>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if >>>>> you're >>>>> in >>>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >>>>> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >>>>> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sam >>>>> >>>>> Video links: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > — > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Wed Apr 10 17:28:45 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:28:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000a01ce3523$08d4e2e0$1a7ea8a0$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000a01ce3523$08d4e2e0$1a7ea8a0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Sorry for the confusion: My name is William O'Donnell. I shortened it in the email address as: wmodnl One of these days, I will fix the outgoing name to have my name properly listed. I also use this address for other lists, where I do not want my real name circulating. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:41 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > Hi Lmad, > (Sorry if y I spelled your name wrong!) > It does sound nice. I'm glad your friends are happy there. > Yes, that's exactly like it is here too, everyone gets treated with > respect and there's such a sense of family. For example, the activity > director teases me that I'm his adopted daughter. LOL! He's a little nuts > but we love him anyway! Seriously, he's probably one of the most friendly > energetic staff we have. > A CAN from Africa says she's my "Friedman Mother." It's all very sweet. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:50 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > They probably did not mention it since they are full. The wait-list is > closed. That is a nice place, I have a few friends who live there. I agree > that, from what I seen, you are treated with respect. In fact, many of the > staff treat the residents as one of there own. The point is, the whole > group-home mentality does not exist. Many including my friends will tell > you, they function like a family. Good luck, have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Hope Paulos" wrote: > >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert > Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called iris > Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for > individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with > shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and > people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A full > kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services are > also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine > mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >>> of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found > them >>> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their > websites >>> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for > me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a > "charity >>> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense >>> of family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much >>> as we get from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, >>> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very >>> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others >>> with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that >>> he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease >>> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks >>> again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I hope > to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >>> tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that >>> works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to >>> Sam it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's >>> situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to >>> be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing > him for not being so called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, > as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> hanging out and talking >>>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with >>>> a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>>> could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>>> doesn't have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >>>> really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what >>>> they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very >>>> knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all >>>> the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form >>>> for safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security > check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> learn more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>>> particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail. >>>> co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >>> zon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gma >>> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c >> om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Wed Apr 10 17:39:14 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:39:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: I love youre response. Keep up the hard work. That is what we all need, perseverance. Let's connect, I am working with a group of people to start a group. One that is a cross of both NFB, ACB, and some own Independant-thinking behind what and how we should become more united within the blindness community, not divided. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, "Robert William Kingett" wrote: > I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 18:07:56 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:07:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> Hi Mauricio, >From reading about some of the views of people in the NFB, it does sound like this happens at times. Like people feel they need to do absolutely everything completely on their own and not ask for help at all. As Robert pointed out last night, and I have been trying to say, independence is different for different people. My version of independence is just as valid, for me, as anyone else's. I'm not telling any of you who are happy living alone and have a different perspective than I do to come move here. So I wish people wouldn't keep continuing to say on the one hand that they're happy I'm here, but on the other hand that I should really go to a center that I've said several times I'm not interested in, and that my life would be so much better if I lived on my own. You don't know the ins and outs of my circumstances, and I don't feel like I need to tell you. But to keep up trying to get me to do things your way, even if it's in a subtle way, is just very overwhelming for me. When I wrote this list I did so with the good intention of just giving information about a place that has helped me and others so much. I know how hard the transition to being a young adult can be and all the factors that take considering. I just didn't want anyone to have to search as long and hard as I did to find Friedman, if they were looking for a place like this. I didn't think I'd get so much controversy in return, or be made to feel like my life will only be "at it's potential," if I live completely on my own as so many of you are. I appreciate this works for you, but don't appreciate being subtly pressured into adopting this lifestyle for myself. I think this conversation has run its course, and some of us are gonna have to agree to disagree on some things. Like I said, in putting this information out there I never thought this would happen. I will say that if anyone is interested in learning more about Friedman for either themselves or a friend or family member you're welcome to write me off list. Thanks so much. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mauricio Almeida Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen way too many of this kind abroad. On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Sam! > First of all, welcome to the list! > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson > [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place > I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind > adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are > optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we > can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to > the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably > wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone > who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a > caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a > roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security > reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid > homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for > volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident > is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss > issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd > like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in > particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They > can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a > background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the > person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is > like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a > lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the > first time in my life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > consider it home. It's all up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar > facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have > and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, > particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to > discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida% > 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:16:43 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:16:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601ce354e$641ebba0$2c5c32e0$@gmail.com> Count me in. I would be a part of the cross group. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago I love youre response. Keep up the hard work. That is what we all need, perseverance. Let's connect, I am working with a group of people to start a group. One that is a cross of both NFB, ACB, and some own Independant-thinking behind what and how we should become more united within the blindness community, not divided. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, "Robert William Kingett" wrote: > I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:17:14 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:17:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <000a01ce3523$08d4e2e0$1a7ea8a0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000801ce354e$766fc240$634f46c0$@gmail.com> Incognito. I like it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sorry for the confusion: My name is William O'Donnell. I shortened it in the email address as: wmodnl One of these days, I will fix the outgoing name to have my name properly listed. I also use this address for other lists, where I do not want my real name circulating. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:41 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: > Hi Lmad, > (Sorry if y I spelled your name wrong!) > It does sound nice. I'm glad your friends are happy there. > Yes, that's exactly like it is here too, everyone gets treated with > respect and there's such a sense of family. For example, the activity > director teases me that I'm his adopted daughter. LOL! He's a little nuts > but we love him anyway! Seriously, he's probably one of the most friendly > energetic staff we have. > A CAN from Africa says she's my "Friedman Mother." It's all very sweet. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:50 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > They probably did not mention it since they are full. The wait-list is > closed. That is a nice place, I have a few friends who live there. I agree > that, from what I seen, you are treated with respect. In fact, many of the > staff treat the residents as one of there own. The point is, the whole > group-home mentality does not exist. Many including my friends will tell > you, they function like a family. Good luck, have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Hope Paulos" wrote: > >> Hello Sam! I just watch one of your videos. I'm from Maine, Mount Desert > Island to be exact, and I know that there is a similar facility called iris > Park Apartments in Portland Maine. This is a subsidize housing for > individuals who are blind or visually impaired. Assistance is given with > shopping, nursing care, if need be orientation and mobility services, and > people can eat either in the dining room or in their own apartments. A full > kitchen is offered in each apartment. Vision rehabilitation services are > also provided if need be. I'm quite surprised that nobody from Maine > mentioned this to you. >> Sincerely, >> Hope Paulos >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:50 AM, "Sam Nelson" wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark and everyone, >>> Thank you for sending this. Yes I am aware of the training centers >>> that Joshua and others (when I sent info on this to a different list >>> of blind >>> students) told me about. It's wonderful that so many of you have found > them >>> to be so helpful and it's worked for you. I have looked at their > websites >>> and read about the NFB philosophy and at this moment, it's just not for > me. >>> >>> I do appreciate your thoughts Joshua! I want to be clear that to my >>> knowledge neither the staff here nor anyone else sees this as a > "charity >>> case," kind of thing. For many that live here, there is a real sense >>> of family, and we give back in our own way to the community as much >>> as we get from it, with our own unique skills talents and personalitys. >>> Yes, several of the residents here do have other disabilities in >>> addition to being blind, but some don't. And honestly, I don't see >>> how that really matters. For example, a very good friend of mine, >>> moved here in I believe November. He is visually impaired, and has >>> CP. But no one really dwells on that. He's amazing at computers, >>> extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humor, and very >>> motivated and incouraging people to advocate with and for others >>> with disabilities. That's what sticks in my mind, about him not that >>> he has CP in addition to being blind. (though I do sometimes tease >>> him that he should get one of those service monkeys LOL!) Thanks >>> again Mark for your kind words. And everyone for your perspective. I hope > to get to know you all better. >>> Sam (short for Samantha, that's ok (smile)) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. >>> Cadigan >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:09 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at >>> Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in >>> Chicago >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain Sam knows about the wonderful training available at the >>> three NFB training centers, however, that's not what he is trying to >>> tell us. Sam is just telling us about a solution he has found that >>> works for him. This solution is not for everyone, but according to >>> Sam it's his best option at the moment. We don't know Sam's >>> situation, and can't speak for him, so I'm just asking everybody to >>> be supportive of Sam and welcome him to the list, instead of haranguing > him for not being so called "independent enough." >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sam Nelson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:43 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >>> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, > as >>>> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >>>> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful >>>> place I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me >>>> and could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >>>> >>>> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >>>> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >>>> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >>>> >>>> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >>>> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >>>> >>>> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >>>> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >>>> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >>>> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >>>> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >>>> >>>> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >>>> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >>>> hanging out and talking >>>> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >>>> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >>>> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >>>> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >>>> >>>> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >>>> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >>>> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >>>> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with >>>> a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >>>> could be someone who's >>>> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and >>>> trying >>>> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >>>> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >>>> doesn't have or want >>>> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >>>> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >>>> would do >>>> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > >>>> of >>>> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >>>> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >>>> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >>>> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >>>> really >>> bad neighborhoods. >>>> >>>> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >>>> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >>>> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >>>> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >>>> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >>>> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what >>>> they'd like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >>>> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very >>>> knowledgable about resources in the community. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >>>> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >>>> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >>>> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >>>> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all >>>> the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form >>>> for safety. >>>> >>>> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really >>>> is like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has >>>> isolated a lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid >>>> friendships for the first time in my life. >>>> >>>> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >>>> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >>>> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security > check. >>>> >>>> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people >>>> stay for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >>>> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >>>> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >>>> >>>> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >>>> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >>>> less stressed about the future. >>>> >>>> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >>>> learn more. >>>> >>>> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >>>> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >>>> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >>>> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >>>> particularly for those from >>>> 18 >>>> to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age >>>> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > >>>> in >>>> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >>>> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >>>> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Video links: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail. >>>> co >>>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veri >>> zon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gma >>> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c >> om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 18:31:01 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:31:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Robert brings up a great point. Personally, I do align pretty closely with the NFB philosophy. I do my own laundry, clean and maintain my living spaces, and am learning more and more recipes so I can independently cook. I find enjoyment in doing these things both because things like cooking are fun and there is a sense of pride in keeping things clean for me, but also because I can do them myself and don't have to rely upon or wait for others to help me do them. However, that was just how I was raised along with my sighted siblings. I wasn't taught that things like doing your own laundry were signs of super-independence, just a part of life that most people have to do on a weekly basis or so. Same for cooking or at least finding a way to independently feed yourself like if it involves independent travel to somewhere to order it. They're just things most people in general do and that's how I was taught. However, I recognize that other people may have different needs separate from the visual. I also see independence in the way that Robert does; it's not defined by how much you can do on your own for every single person. It might be more that way than not for me, but just because that's how I was taught it doesn't make others who don't fall into that belief system or less independent than I am because they're independent in the sense that they're choosing what they want to do and how they want to live their lives. Robert is also right that the NFB philosophy is not set on measuring each person's independence quotient or something in terms of a number or percent, but we are about changing conceptions of the blind and making life better for blind people, and in order to do this there is strength in numbers. So, is it right to ostricize or exclude people from that effort just because they might not do as much for themselves as others? Is what we do or don't do for ourselves individually more important than the common goal we are trying to achieve? I know that even if I had a friend who barely did anything for themself, but supported other blind people in terms of independence in the work place, or accessibility in college classrooms, I would accept that help gladly. And, to me a person like that who is willing to fight or support independence related to things they themselves may not ever want or need to do on their own is just as supportive and important to the causes we fight for. Not to mention that supporting things others might want to do, even if it doesn't apply to them, speaks volumes about their character. On 4/10/13, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > I love youre response. Keep up the hard work. That is what we all need, > perseverance. Let's connect, I am working with a group of people to start a > group. One that is a cross of both NFB, ACB, and some own > Independant-thinking behind what and how we should become more united within > the blindness community, not divided. Have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, "Robert William Kingett" > wrote: > >> I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the >> blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money >> to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my >> fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place >> is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that >> people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do >> what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. >> What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, >> individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on >> or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of >> the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT >> chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes >> and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, >> apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. >> Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be >> celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is >> the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my >> understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the >> National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional >> acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of >> blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of >> information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to >> share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create >> imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, >> and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful >> organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all >> policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence >> should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our >> food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with >> care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one >> dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm >> very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong >> advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. >> When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own >> bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it >> makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down >> the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, >> and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an >> independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. >> As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're >> changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 19:02:06 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:02:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5165B72E.1060801@gmail.com> well said, feel free to write me off list, as well as look at the videos on youtube about friedman place. On 4/10/2013 1:07 PM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Mauricio, > From reading about some of the views of people in the NFB, it does sound > like this happens at times. Like people feel they need to do absolutely > everything completely on their own and not ask for help at all. > As Robert pointed out last night, and I have been trying to say, > independence is different for different people. My version of independence > is just as valid, for me, as anyone else's. I'm not telling any of you who > are happy living alone and have a different perspective than I do to come > move here. So I wish people wouldn't keep continuing to say on the one hand > that they're happy I'm here, but on the other hand that I should really go > to a center that I've said several times I'm not interested in, and that my > life would be so much better if I lived on my own. You don't know the ins > and outs of my circumstances, and I don't feel like I need to tell you. But > to keep up trying to get me to do things your way, even if it's in a subtle > way, is just very overwhelming for me. > When I wrote this list I did so with the good intention of just giving > information about a place that has helped me and others so much. I know how > hard the transition to being a young adult can be and all the factors that > take considering. I just didn't want anyone to have to search as long and > hard as I did to find Friedman, if they were looking for a place like this. > I didn't think I'd get so much controversy in return, or be made to feel > like my life will only be "at it's potential," if I live completely on my > own as so many of you are. I appreciate this works for you, but don't > appreciate being subtly pressured into adopting this lifestyle for myself. > I think this conversation has run its course, and some of us are gonna > have to agree to disagree on some things. Like I said, in putting this > information out there I never thought this would happen. > I will say that if anyone is interested in learning more about Friedman for > either themselves or a friend or family member you're welcome to write me > off list. > Thanks so much. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mauricio > Almeida > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:42 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of > super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which > contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. > I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen way > too many of this kind abroad. > On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Hi Sam! >> First of all, welcome to the list! >> I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the > notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook > for themselves, etc. >> I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the > fact, that there is a better life! >> Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of > yourself, and get a job! >> We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other > disabilities. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and > talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be > someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have > or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would > do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really > bad neighborhoods. >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable > about resources in the community. >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> first time in my life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very > little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> a.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida% >> 40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kingettr%40gmail.com /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:06:23 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 15:06:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <5165B72E.1060801@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> <5165B72E.1060801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801ce3555$5466d240$fd3476c0$@gmail.com> A lot of the stuff I saw you do is stuff I'm interested in. You are the writier right? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago well said, feel free to write me off list, as well as look at the videos on youtube about friedman place. On 4/10/2013 1:07 PM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Mauricio, > From reading about some of the views of people in the NFB, it does > sound like this happens at times. Like people feel they need to do > absolutely everything completely on their own and not ask for help at all. > As Robert pointed out last night, and I have been trying to say, > independence is different for different people. My version of > independence is just as valid, for me, as anyone else's. I'm not > telling any of you who are happy living alone and have a different > perspective than I do to come move here. So I wish people wouldn't > keep continuing to say on the one hand that they're happy I'm here, > but on the other hand that I should really go to a center that I've > said several times I'm not interested in, and that my life would be > so much better if I lived on my own. You don't know the ins and outs > of my circumstances, and I don't feel like I need to tell you. But to > keep up trying to get me to do things your way, even if it's in a subtle way, is just very overwhelming for me. > When I wrote this list I did so with the good intention of just > giving information about a place that has helped me and others so > much. I know how hard the transition to being a young adult can be and > all the factors that take considering. I just didn't want anyone to > have to search as long and hard as I did to find Friedman, if they were looking for a place like this. > I didn't think I'd get so much controversy in return, or be made to > feel like my life will only be "at it's potential," if I live > completely on my own as so many of you are. I appreciate this works > for you, but don't appreciate being subtly pressured into adopting this lifestyle for myself. > I think this conversation has run its course, and some of us are > gonna have to agree to disagree on some things. Like I said, in > putting this information out there I never thought this would happen. > I will say that if anyone is interested in learning more about > Friedman for either themselves or a friend or family member you're > welcome to write me off list. > Thanks so much. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mauricio > Almeida > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:42 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense > of super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any > solution which contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. > I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've > seen way too many of this kind abroad. > On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Hi Sam! >> First of all, welcome to the list! >> I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the > notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of > themselves, cook for themselves, etc. >> I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you >> the > fact, that there is a better life! >> Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care >> of > yourself, and get a job! >> We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with >> other > disabilities. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and >> could see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as >> medication reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just >> hanging out and > talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This >> is not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with >> a caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >> could be > someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who >> just wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason >> doesn't have > or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >> would > do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >> really > bad neighborhoods. >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable > about resources in the community. >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, >> or nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, >> for safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. >> They can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to >> get a background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all >> the person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> first time in my life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way >> less stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to >> learn more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very > little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and >> maybe soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you >> want to discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pcc >> u >> a.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida >> % >> 40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kingettr%40gmail.c > om /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 19:16:01 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:16:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How to Get to that Training Center call notes! Message-ID: Hi everyone! As many of you know, the NABS membership committee hosted a conference call last Sunday night with special guest Al Spooner, the Assistant Director of Outreach and Marking at BLIND, Inc. He gave an awesome presentation on How to Get to That Training Center! I have composed some notes and Al has looked over them. So they are attached. Please read them and pass them along to anyone who could find them useful. Save them on your computer in case someone asks you about training centers in the future so you can quickly send these. Thanks to everyone who attended and supported the call, and feel free to pose questions about training centers to the list or to me individually. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: How to get to That Training Center Notes.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 315763 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgermano at asu.edu Wed Apr 10 19:41:49 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:41:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied Message-ID: I requested that voc rehab pay for me to have and comprehensive examination and contacts lenses from Eye Associates in Indiana. The specialize in Achromatopsia and spend 4 hours working to find the right color contacts to match each person's needs. I have used red lenses for years but now that I am back in school and reading a lot and the classrooms are extremely bright. I have found the need to find a better color. They denied it because they use 3 vendors in Arizona (where I live) for low vision services. None of these 3 do the extensive exam. In Indiana I try on several color actual contacts then see how they work for reading how they work with my sunglasses for out side. My prescription is in glasses because it makes my near vision (which I use mostly at school) very blurry) But I need the color filter due to extreme photophobia. I only asked for the cost of the exam (above medicare) and the actual contacts. I did nto ask them to cover any transportation costs. They claim they cannot use out of state services if it is available in Arizona. I explained that yes they have low vision exams but none can do what the one in Indiana can do. One even tried to tell me to have my prescription in my clear contacts then have multiple colored glasses even after I explained I cannot do the script in the contacts or I cannot read, use my computer, write without a headache from it being blurry. I filed an appeal but my appointment is May 14th. I am going when I will already be in the midwest for my daughter's college graduation. Any pointers? From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 19:22:50 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:22:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a wuestion about Ipad or Imac In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5165BC0A.1090509@gmail.com> I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who use an I pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own accessibility solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I use it to write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and newspapers, even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in the May issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm looking into blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always published various blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, essays, and poetry in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! Anyway, I have a question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad and I want to know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want to get a dock so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've also been thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range right now. Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word like when I type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I will be writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've been working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the fan in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won’t be able to write at all. It’s what I do, after all. So if anyone can answer this question I’d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the founding fathers… etc. I change them often depending on the article that I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. You guys are the best! /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 19:24:38 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:24:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <000801ce3555$5466d240$fd3476c0$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> <5165B72E.1060801@gmail.com> <000801ce3555$5466d240$fd3476c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5165BC76.50801@gmail.com> yes i am the writer. From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 20:10:55 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:10:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <5165BC76.50801@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> <5165B72E.1060801@gmail.com> <000801ce3555$5466d240$fd3476c0$@gmail.com> <5165BC76.50801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002c01ce355e$585cfc90$0916f5b0$@gmail.com> Your're the man. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago yes i am the writer. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 20:12:00 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:12:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <002c01ce355e$585cfc90$0916f5b0$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> <5165B72E.1060801@gmail.com> <000801ce3555$5466d240$fd3476c0$@gmail.com> <5165BC76.50801@gmail.com> <002c01ce355e$585cfc90$0916f5b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5165C790.3060505@gmail.com> thank you.I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who use an I pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own accessibility solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I use it to write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and newspapers, even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in the May issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm looking into blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always published various blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, essays, and poetry in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! Anyway, I have a question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad and I want to know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want to get a dock so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've also been thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range right now. Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word like when I type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I will be writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've been working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the fan in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won’t be able to write at all. It’s what I do, after all. So if anyone can answer this question I’d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the founding fathers… etc. I change them often depending on the article that I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. You guys are the best! /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 20:15:25 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:15:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How to Get to that Training Center call notes! Message-ID: <5165c89d.8b23340a.0be4.4bf6@mx.google.com> Cindy, thanks sooooooooo much for sending this along. I sing in a choir at evening mass on Sundays, so I wasn't able to be on the call even though I really wanted to. This seems like a good thing to do for all conference calls. ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy Bennett , North Carolina Association of Blind Students ,nfbwatlk , nfb of nc mailing list ,nabs presidents list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hope.paulos at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 20:26:48 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:26:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <5165C790.3060505@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> <5165B72E.1060801@gmail.com> <000801ce3555$5466d240$fd3476c0$@gmail.com> <5165BC76.50801@gmail.com> <002c01ce355e$585cfc90$0916f5b0$@gmail.com> <5165C790.3060505@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi there! I believe the iPad has the AutoCorrect feature. I know the iPhone and the iPods have them! They also have a dictation feature. This might be helpful as well! Sent from my iPhone On Apr 10, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > thank you.I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who use an I pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own accessibility solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I use it to write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and newspapers, even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in the May issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm looking into blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always published various blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, essays, and poetry in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! Anyway, I have a question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad and I want to know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want to get a dock so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've also been thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range right now. Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word like when I type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I will be writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've been working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the fan in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won’t be able to write at all. It’s what I do, after all. So if anyone can answer this question I’d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the founding fathers… etc. I change them often depending on the article that I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. You guys are the best! > > /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives > */ > > *Click here to see my writing archive * > > *Click here to view my website/ > / * > > */ > /* > > */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * > *Tel: 850 764 2161 * > > Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS > My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful > My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) > WordPress My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and it’s only Monday! > Read more | My blog > Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter > > Get this email app! > > > Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog > > Like · Comment · Share > > Get this email app! > Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 20:23:31 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:23:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] a wuestion about Ipad or Imac In-Reply-To: <5165BC0A.1090509@gmail.com> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> <5165BC0A.1090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry Robert, I didn't see this separate message. I just saw the one at the end of the other thread. Cindy On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who use an I > pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own accessibility > solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I use it to > write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and newspapers, > even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in the May > issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm looking into > blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always published various > blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, essays, and poetry > in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! Anyway, I have a > question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad and I want to > know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want to get a dock > so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've also been > thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range right now. > Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word like when I > type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I will be > writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've been > working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the fan > in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won’t be > able to write at all. It’s what I do, after all. So if anyone can answer > this question I’d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to > where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the > founding fathers… etc. I change them often depending on the article that > I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. > You guys are the best! > > /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing > archives > */ > > *Click here to see my writing archive > * > > *Click here to view my website/ > / * > > */ > /* > > */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * > *Tel: 850 764 2161 * > > Facebook > > Twitter > > LinkedIn > > YouTube > > WordPress > > Blog RSS > > My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful > > My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long > Will I Cry? (play) > > WordPress > > My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day > and it’s only Monday! > > > Read more > | > My blog > > Share on Facebook > >  Share on Twitter > > > > Get this email app! > > > > > Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch > in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog > > > Like > > · Comment > > · Share > > > > Get this email app! > > > Designed with WiseStamp - > Get > yours > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 20:21:44 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:21:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] iPad question about autocorrect Message-ID: Hi Robert, I do not have all of the answers to your question, but I did change the subject line, so others will probably respond. In my experience with using an iPhone, the autocorrect works if I am touch typing but not if I am using my blue tooth keyboard. I know that you can create shortcuts on the iPhone such as eml for email, etc. I do think that these shortcuts autocorrect when using a keyboard. I just tried omw on my keyboard, and it corrected to on my way. But I do not believe that using a blue tooth keyboard will cause the spell check autocorrect function to work. Make sense? I could be wrong, and the iPad may have a more sophistocated autocorrect function. Also, I am not using the Apple blue tooth keyboard, and that may make a difference as well, but hoepfully someone else will be able to respond. Cindy On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > thank you.I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who > use an I pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own > accessibility solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. > I use it to write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and > newspapers, even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in > the May issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm > looking into blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always > published various blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, > essays, and poetry in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! > Anyway, I have a question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad > and I want to know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want > to get a dock so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've > also been thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range > right now. Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word > like when I type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? > I will be writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because > I've been working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried > that the fan in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness > because I won’t be able to write at all. It’s what I do, after all. So > if anyone can answer this question I’d really appreciate it. I have auto > correct set to where, if I type something short like I T f f, it > translates into if the founding fathers… etc. I change them often > depending on the article that I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much > for any answers you may have. You guys are the best! > > /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing > archives > */ > > *Click here to see my writing archive > * > > > *Click here to view my website/ > / * > > */ > /* > > */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * > *Tel: 850 764 2161 * > > Facebook > > Twitter > > LinkedIn > > YouTube > > WordPress > > Blog RSS > > > My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful > > > My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long > Will I Cry? (play) > > > WordPress > > My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and > it’s only Monday! > > > Read more > | > My blog > > > Share on Facebook > >  Share on Twitter > > > > Get this email app! > > > > > > Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch > in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog > > > Like > > · Comment > > · Share > > > > Get this email app! > > > Designed with WiseStamp - > Get > yours > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 21:21:46 2013 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (ryan Bishop) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:21:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] a wuestion about Ipad or Imac In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> <5165BC0A.1090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: hello. i'm going to be honest, IPads do have auto correct on, but there mostly for spelling mistakes. They do understand some short term words, it just depends, I believe you can also add your own short terms in the dictionary. I will look more in to this, because I have IPads around at school, and I have an IPhone. On 4/10/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Sorry Robert, I didn't see this separate message. I just saw the one > at the end of the other thread. > > Cindy > > On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who use an I >> pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own accessibility >> solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I use it to >> write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and newspapers, >> even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in the May >> issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm looking into >> blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always published various >> blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, essays, and poetry >> in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! Anyway, I have a >> question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad and I want to >> know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want to get a dock >> so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've also been >> thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range right now. >> Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word like when I >> type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I will be >> writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've been >> working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the fan >> in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won’t be >> able to write at all. It’s what I do, after all. So if anyone can answer >> this question I’d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to >> where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the >> founding fathers… etc. I change them often depending on the article that >> I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. >> You guys are the best! >> >> /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing >> archives >> */ >> >> *Click here to see my writing archive >> * >> >> *Click here to view my website/ >> / * >> >> */ >> /* >> >> */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * >> *Tel: 850 764 2161 * >> >> Facebook >> >> Twitter >> >> LinkedIn >> >> YouTube >> >> WordPress >> >> Blog RSS >> >> My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful >> >> My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long >> Will I Cry? (play) >> >> WordPress >> >> My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day >> and it’s only Monday! >> >> >> Read more >> | >> My blog >> >> Share on Facebook >> >>  Share on Twitter >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> >> >> Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch >> in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog >> >> >> Like >> >> · Comment >> >> · Share >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> Designed with WiseStamp - >> Get >> yours >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.com > -- ---------------- Ryan Bishop E-Mail Address: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Mobile Number: --- "A Loss of site, Never a loss of vission" From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 21:44:39 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:44:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002201ce3634$9b2e1190$d18a34b0$@verizon.net> Hi Suzanne, I don't have any answers for you on this, other than to pursue the appeal, but I wanted to write and say I'm sorry this happened. To me, your request makes perfect sense. But sometimes voc rehab can be so frustrating, it just doesn't make sense! I just wanted to say I know where you're coming from in requesting something and having it denied. I'd like a braille lite, for example, because I had one before and then my mom fried it. I like them better than the braillenote because you don't need to send out every two years to get the battery replaced. I don't need the fancy stuff on the braillenote with e-mail and everything. I just need the wordprocessing part, and to make sure it has a compact flash slot so I can download books on it. Anyway, my caseworker in IL said that there was no way I could get any kind of technology like that unless I was going to work or school. And it sounded like I would to have been going to work or school for awhile before they'd get it. But the crazier thing she said that was in order to get a braillenote or anything similar I'd have to take a test in reading and writing braille! I mean talk about a waste of time! I found someone who was selling their braille lite for a price I or my family could save up for, so I'll probably end up doing that. Sometimes honestly they're more trouble than they're worth. But I know how hard it can be when you really do need their help and they're just making things a million times worse. I really hope you get the Indiana appointment soon! Maybe go to your caseworker's supervisor and make your case to them? That sometimes works. I've found sometimes the supervisors are more understanding than the people we actually work with. , I hope this helps. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied I requested that voc rehab pay for me to have and comprehensive examination and contacts lenses from Eye Associates in Indiana. The specialize in Achromatopsia and spend 4 hours working to find the right color contacts to match each person's needs. I have used red lenses for years but now that I am back in school and reading a lot and the classrooms are extremely bright. I have found the need to find a better color. They denied it because they use 3 vendors in Arizona (where I live) for low vision services. None of these 3 do the extensive exam. In Indiana I try on several color actual contacts then see how they work for reading how they work with my sunglasses for out side. My prescription is in glasses because it makes my near vision (which I use mostly at school) very blurry) But I need the color filter due to extreme photophobia. I only asked for the cost of the exam (above medicare) and the actual contacts. I did nto ask them to cover any transportation costs. They claim they cannot use out of state services if it is available in Arizona. I explained that yes they have low vision exams but none can do what the one in Indiana can do. One even tried to tell me to have my prescription in my clear contacts then have multiple colored glasses even after I explained I cannot do the script in the contacts or I cannot read, use my computer, write without a headache from it being blurry. I filed an appeal but my appointment is May 14th. I am going when I will already be in the midwest for my daughter's college graduation. Any pointers? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 21:52:07 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:52:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] audio description review: She Kills Monsters In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> <5165BC0A.1090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5165DF07.9050208@gmail.com> CRITICULOUS quest log. HP: *27* Ability scores, *infinite* Psionic ability: *word choice, diction, cute simile. Magical pronouns* Extraordinary senses: *audio description*. Skills: *critical perception, types with three fingers, types 40 words per minute* Feats: *tenure, cute adjectives, plush sentences, and knowledge of comma placement.* *FINAL ENTRY.* Greetings traveler, it is I, Criticuous. I feel that I should explain my immediate action of perusing the lost scrolls of Qui Nguyen, a legend here in this stadium. I feel as though I should dictate my exact happenings so this way it will be clear to my fellow party, and others, where I disappeared to for an hour an 45 minutes. I was at the pub down at Halsted Street acquiring training for my spells and abilities. Recognizing me from mystic lands such as America’s comedy, com, and various other online communities, a Mage named Evanore invited me to a judging. I was honored that he had picked me to attend the epic presentation of she Kills Monsters, which takes place in a distant magical land called Athens, Ohio. 1995. Perhaps this was a trap to loot me. I decided to travel with this very tall usher to this event. Perhaps I would level up. I knew that, before I entered the grand chamber that was dubbed Steppenwolf Theater Company, I’d have to furiously level up and prepare for this performance. I acquired a special ability called audio description, which was a special mystical voice that would tell my visually impaired eyes what would be happening. I made sure that my Meta was all the way up before trekking into the Steppenwolf stadium. I presumed that I would find some of my missing party there but, alas, as I skimmed the names in sadness, not even one name jumped out at me, even telepathically. In the hopes that you, reader, will know them, I have included the names of the event participants below. Katherine Bangs (AGNES) Rinska Carrasco-Prestinary (KALIOPE) Daeshawna Cook (VERA) Fred Geyer+ (MILES) Jessica London-Shields (TILLY) Allie Long (EVIL TINA/FARRAH) Morgan Maher (ORCUS) Jose Nateras (STEVE) Ellie Reed+ (EVIL GABBI/NARROTOR) Sara Sawicki+ (LILITH) Richard Traub (CHUCK) Upon my arrival into the space I realized that I wasn't the only guest that Evanore had invited. Mages were there, as well as elves, and fellow humans were present as well but I happened to be the only reviewer in the throng of fellow spectators. I sat down just before Curtin and assessed what this was going to be about. I was about to hear a mystical journey about adventure, loss, and discovery and holding onto prized possessions and feelings. I immediately conjured enough Meta to summon my special perception known as audio description, which would allow me to hear, through a headset, the actions that the characters did on stage, the costumes, and scene changes. A pleasant surprise met my ears as Evan Hatfield, also known as Evanore, started articulately describing the set of this event, a kitchen inside of a small house. This event, she kills monsters soon had me swept up in its depth. Agnes's life is turned upside down when she stumbles upon her late sister’s Dungeons & Dragons notebook. As she embarks on an action-packed quest to save her sister's soul, Agnes comes face to face with homicidal fairies, raunchy ogres, fairies, orcs, demons, spells. And blood thirsty cheerleaders, and discovers a side of herself she never knew existed. Qui Nguyen's touching comedy combines real life, fantasy and 90's pop culture in the search for the badass in us all. Not only does this flourishing comedy spin with speedy quips, it also manages to touch on deeper subjects in the world today. Agnes not only learns what her sister’s fears are about being gay in a cold cruel world but Agnes learns what it took for her sister to battle her daemons, even if that meant battling them in a different world. This smooth blend of comedy between characters and understanding was just the right touch that hypnotized me to the core. I even put away my red pen as I laughed along with my fellow spectators at a pop culture reference or a funny scene, such as the one where Agnes challenges demonic cheerleaders to a dance off and then kills them while their back is turned. My special summon of audio description was very helpful, describing the scene in a tone that didn't conflict with the presentation. Evan clearly described the set, actions, facial expressions, and the like, not using overly complicated words or interpreting the story. There was, however, one downfall. The environment prevented my aid from working as effectively as it could have been. The music, which had a higher number of HP than I did, rendered the audio description impossible to hear at times, wounding my eardrums as I attempted to still focus on this brilliant blend of dialogue that did two things in one, invoked a sympathetic look from me whenever a deeper connection between Agnes and her sister and made me titter tantalizingly at some of the pop culture cracks. I was transfixed, gleefully enjoying the entertainment despite the bump with audio description. What really makes this even so powerful is it pinches your attention in a way that just grips you and then keeps stunning you with magic tricks of affectionate scenes that show understanding to the fullest, alongside the action packed scenes that are pumped up a degree by the chosen soundtracks. Even though the sound tracked rendered audio description useless in some areas because I had to strain my straining to hear what Evan was saying I’d go to see this toss of fun, love, and light again. It was that well put together. Blending a mix of tight morals with the occasional swing of slashing comedy that dices the funny bone this enchanted event had me praising the creator not long after the curtains rose. Despite the fact the music interferes with the audio description it doesn't dwindle the experience down to unenjoyably painful As a well-known traveler in the land of Chicago, I've been asked to oversee many important battles. Clashes between fairies, spell casting duels, and bar quarrels over gold. In my many explorations I've never treated myself to such a delight; I encourage anyone who finds this quest log to check out this event at the mystical Steppenwolf theater company. You'llnot only have a chance to refill your HP while embarking on a quest of laughter, adventure, and love, but I can guarantee that you'll level up in ways that you could have never dreamed of. I sure did. *END OF QUEST LOG* From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 21:54:05 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:54:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601ce3635$ec612880$c5237980$@verizon.net> HiKatie, , Thanks so much for your response! I felt so much more accepted here having heard all this from you, and it means a lot! I'm hoping that if more and more people develop a similar attitude the blindness community can come together a little more by fighting for common goals of the group and appreciating each member's contributions even ifpersonal views on things like independence vary. I also wanted to say you're a good writer, and I'd love to connect with you personally more on music therapy as I studied that some in college. Thanks. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi all, Robert brings up a great point. Personally, I do align pretty closely with the NFB philosophy. I do my own laundry, clean and maintain my living spaces, and am learning more and more recipes so I can independently cook. I find enjoyment in doing these things both because things like cooking are fun and there is a sense of pride in keeping things clean for me, but also because I can do them myself and don't have to rely upon or wait for others to help me do them. However, that was just how I was raised along with my sighted siblings. I wasn't taught that things like doing your own laundry were signs of super-independence, just a part of life that most people have to do on a weekly basis or so. Same for cooking or at least finding a way to independently feed yourself like if it involves independent travel to somewhere to order it. They're just things most people in general do and that's how I was taught. However, I recognize that other people may have different needs separate from the visual. I also see independence in the way that Robert does; it's not defined by how much you can do on your own for every single person. It might be more that way than not for me, but just because that's how I was taught it doesn't make others who don't fall into that belief system or less independent than I am because they're independent in the sense that they're choosing what they want to do and how they want to live their lives. Robert is also right that the NFB philosophy is not set on measuring each person's independence quotient or something in terms of a number or percent, but we are about changing conceptions of the blind and making life better for blind people, and in order to do this there is strength in numbers. So, is it right to ostricize or exclude people from that effort just because they might not do as much for themselves as others? Is what we do or don't do for ourselves individually more important than the common goal we are trying to achieve? I know that even if I had a friend who barely did anything for themself, but supported other blind people in terms of independence in the work place, or accessibility in college classrooms, I would accept that help gladly. And, to me a person like that who is willing to fight or support independence related to things they themselves may not ever want or need to do on their own is just as supportive and important to the causes we fight for. Not to mention that supporting things others might want to do, even if it doesn't apply to them, speaks volumes about their character. On 4/10/13, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > I love youre response. Keep up the hard work. That is what we all > need, perseverance. Let's connect, I am working with a group of > people to start a group. One that is a cross of both NFB, ACB, and > some own Independant-thinking behind what and how we should become > more united within the blindness community, not divided. Have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, "Robert William Kingett" > > wrote: > >> I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the >> blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised >> money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even >> supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe >> that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree >> with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, >> have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. >> What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, >> individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from >> dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. >> I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be >> president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a >> place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people >> can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. >> Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be >> celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the >> NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is >> my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission >> of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread >> emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real >> problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the >> misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by >> bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each >> other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. >> Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who >> have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful >> organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits >> all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, >> independence should be celebrated. We're paying our bills and we're >> paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the >> world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help >> with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my >> level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. >> When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own >> bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and >> it makes me happy. Why? Because that's a blind person that has broken >> down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their >> lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. >> They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. >> As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're >> changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail. >> com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From samnelson1 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 21:55:47 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:55:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <7CCA5DE9772E4E5B8102F76480524D2B@ownerf49ceb395> <000701ce3518$75ca4300$615ec900$@verizon.net> <007501ce345f$fcb34e70$f619eb50$@gmail.com> <000301ce3529$c5c36010$514a2030$@verizon.net> <013001ce34ba$df1d16b0$9d574410$@gmail.com> <5164BBE7.5030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701ce3636$29788060$7c698120$@verizon.net> Hi William, I so apriciate your thoughts on all this, and I'd love to join/help in any way I can with the forming of your group. Thanks. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago I love youre response. Keep up the hard work. That is what we all need, perseverance. Let's connect, I am working with a group of people to start a group. One that is a cross of both NFB, ACB, and some own Independant-thinking behind what and how we should become more united within the blindness community, not divided. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, "Robert William Kingett" wrote: > I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence should be celebrated. We’re paying our bills and we’re paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it makes me happy. Why? Because that’s a blind person that has broken down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 23:19:35 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:19:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied Message-ID: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> Suzanne, I'm sorry about your VR frustration, I'm sorry to be a pessimist here, but I think you're out of luck on this one. I just started working with my VR counselor, but from what I know of them, they'll find the easiest, most inexpensive solution to any problem. "You need new contact lenses. Okay, we'll get you the cheap ones from Arizona." As my own VR counselor said, "We buy our clients what they need, which isn't always what they'd most prefer." And Sam, I have to disagree with you. Though VR can be annoying (at least from what I've heard), they do provide great services for lots of people. And also... I can't resist pointing out an error in your braillenote rant. With the apex, you can change the battery yourself. Best, Sophie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <09F870C71C804E7CAD8664724F2A6406@HP30910210001> Sam, sorry that some people made you feel unwelcomed or like you aren't independent enough. You are so right, independence is what you define it to be, noone else's definition. I would add that freedom of choice is part of being independent. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place,a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Mauricio, >From reading about some of the views of people in the NFB, it does sound like this happens at times. Like people feel they need to do absolutely everything completely on their own and not ask for help at all. As Robert pointed out last night, and I have been trying to say, independence is different for different people. My version of independence is just as valid, for me, as anyone else's. I'm not telling any of you who are happy living alone and have a different perspective than I do to come move here. So I wish people wouldn't keep continuing to say on the one hand that they're happy I'm here, but on the other hand that I should really go to a center that I've said several times I'm not interested in, and that my life would be so much better if I lived on my own. You don't know the ins and outs of my circumstances, and I don't feel like I need to tell you. But to keep up trying to get me to do things your way, even if it's in a subtle way, is just very overwhelming for me. When I wrote this list I did so with the good intention of just giving information about a place that has helped me and others so much. I know how hard the transition to being a young adult can be and all the factors that take considering. I just didn't want anyone to have to search as long and hard as I did to find Friedman, if they were looking for a place like this. I didn't think I'd get so much controversy in return, or be made to feel like my life will only be "at it's potential," if I live completely on my own as so many of you are. I appreciate this works for you, but don't appreciate being subtly pressured into adopting this lifestyle for myself. I think this conversation has run its course, and some of us are gonna have to agree to disagree on some things. Like I said, in putting this information out there I never thought this would happen. I will say that if anyone is interested in learning more about Friedman for either themselves or a friend or family member you're welcome to write me off list. Thanks so much. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mauricio Almeida Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen way too many of this kind abroad. On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Sam! > First of all, welcome to the list! > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the fact, that there is a better life! > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of yourself, and get a job! > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other disabilities. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson > [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place > I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind > adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are > optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we > can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to > the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably > wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone > who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a > caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a > roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security > reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid > homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for > volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident > is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss > issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd > like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in > particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They > can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a > background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the > person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is > like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a > lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the > first time in my life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > consider it home. It's all up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar > facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have > and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, > particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to > discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida% > 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 00:11:41 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:11:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> References: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5165FFBD.3080206@gmail.com> I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what they frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even if they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to like newly blind people because they haven’t yet formed educated opinions about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take anything without question and don’t need anything anymore complex. Also, even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they like the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or every social worker. I’d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to provide, you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart from that, I’d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what you need and that won’t get you heard at all. present your case, first, to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain English, no metaphors, no if’s, ands, or buts, tell her that you’re going to go up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. From samnelson1 at verizon.net Thu Apr 11 00:18:44 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:18:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago In-Reply-To: <09F870C71C804E7CAD8664724F2A6406@HP30910210001> References: <000001ce350f$0cb45710$261d0530$@verizon.net> <000001ce3616$544ee4c0$fcecae40$@verizon.net> <09F870C71C804E7CAD8664724F2A6406@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <000001ce364a$210468e0$630d3aa0$@verizon.net> Hi Melisa and PJ, That's ok. Thanks for your thoughts though, it means a lot. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Sam, sorry that some people made you feel unwelcomed or like you aren't independent enough. You are so right, independence is what you define it to be, noone else's definition. I would add that freedom of choice is part of being independent. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Nelson" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place,a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago Hi Mauricio, >From reading about some of the views of people in the NFB, it does sound like this happens at times. Like people feel they need to do absolutely everything completely on their own and not ask for help at all. As Robert pointed out last night, and I have been trying to say, independence is different for different people. My version of independence is just as valid, for me, as anyone else's. I'm not telling any of you who are happy living alone and have a different perspective than I do to come move here. So I wish people wouldn't keep continuing to say on the one hand that they're happy I'm here, but on the other hand that I should really go to a center that I've said several times I'm not interested in, and that my life would be so much better if I lived on my own. You don't know the ins and outs of my circumstances, and I don't feel like I need to tell you. But to keep up trying to get me to do things your way, even if it's in a subtle way, is just very overwhelming for me. When I wrote this list I did so with the good intention of just giving information about a place that has helped me and others so much. I know how hard the transition to being a young adult can be and all the factors that take considering. I just didn't want anyone to have to search as long and hard as I did to find Friedman, if they were looking for a place like this. I didn't think I'd get so much controversy in return, or be made to feel like my life will only be "at it's potential," if I live completely on my own as so many of you are. I appreciate this works for you, but don't appreciate being subtly pressured into adopting this lifestyle for myself. I think this conversation has run its course, and some of us are gonna have to agree to disagree on some things. Like I said, in putting this information out there I never thought this would happen. I will say that if anyone is interested in learning more about Friedman for either themselves or a friend or family member you're welcome to write me off list. Thanks so much. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mauricio Almeida Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen way too many of this kind abroad. On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Sam! > First of all, welcome to the list! > I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, cook for themselves, etc. > I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you > the fact, that there is a better life! > Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? > They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care > of yourself, and get a job! > We aren't some charity ccase for the state! > I'm praying that you can get in this training center. > The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with > other disabilities. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson > [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi Everyone, > > First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as > I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I > just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place > I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could > see it as an option for either short or long-term living. > > I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved > this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind > adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. > > Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the > country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. > > Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a > positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is > staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are > optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we > can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. > > Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication > reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and talking > with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, > other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e > exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to > the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. > > The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is > not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably > wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone > who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a > caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This > could be someone who's > transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and trying > to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just > wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't > have or want > to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be > someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would > would do > well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling of > support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through > the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a > roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security > reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in > really bad neighborhoods. > > Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want > their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid > homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for > volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident > is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss > issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd > like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in > particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable about resources in the community. > > > > I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or > nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for > safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They > can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a > background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the > person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for safety. > > I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is > like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a > lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the > first time in my life. > > There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, > I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is > covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. > > There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay > for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living > completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and > consider it home. It's all up to the person. > > I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe > supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less > stressed about the future. > > At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn > more. > > Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience > here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar > facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have > and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, > particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very little services. I wish the age > requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're in > that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe > soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to > discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. > > > > Sam > > Video links: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida% > 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 00:26:40 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:26:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> References: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what they frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even if they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to like newly blind people because they haven’t yet formed educated opinions about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take anything without question and don’t need anything anymore complex. Also, even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they like the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or every social worker. I’d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to provide, you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart from that, I’d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what you need and that won’t get you heard at all. present your case, first, to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain English, no metaphors, no if’s, ands, or buts, tell her that you’re going to go up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 01:17:10 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:17:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> References: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> Message-ID: VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with your appeal. His phone number is: 520-733-5894 or krezguy at cox.net He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, you should pursue it. As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all about getting screen reading software? Best of luck, Arielle On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what they > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even if > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to like > newly blind people because they haven’t yet formed educated opinions > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take > anything without question and don’t need anything anymore complex. Also, > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they like > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or > every social worker. I’d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to provide, > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart > from that, I’d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what > you need and that won’t get you heard at all. present your case, first, > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain English, > no metaphors, no if’s, ands, or buts, tell her that you’re going to go > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 11 01:28:37 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:28:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> References: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes I have also found this to be the case for the most part with voc rehab. I was in school several years ago and requested a copy machine so I could do all my large printing because the teachers were not putting in thier book orders in time for APH to large print the books. They denied it at first but I stood my ground. I showed them that over time this was actually less expensive and I would be more successful in my courses having large print form day one and on demand. I got the copy machine and it really worked well for my needs. In this case none of the Arizona eye doctors can do what the one's in Indiana can. I am only asking for the cost of the exam and the contacts. The contacts which they approved to buy will not be any cheaper if the A doctor orders them. But what they will be is the wrong color and darkness since none of the AZ doctors have adequate means to find the right color. Some achoromats actually use one color in one eye and one in another. They did not even offer to pay a portion based on what the AZ vendors would charge them. The supervisor is the one who is the problem. The hard part is the counselor being the middle man so she is not adequately explaining my needs and why this would be the right choice. I filed an official appeal. Then I got a call from the ombudsman saying my counselor told her I no longer wanted to proceed with the appeal. I said that was not true. I do want the appeal. I submitted a 15 page document stating my cse including what each of the AZ doctors said they would do. One picks the color based on a few "most popular" colors yet most eye doctors have never seen an achromat or fitted them with the right color filter. I already spent $1000 out of pocket for script glasses, script sunglasses and trying to back off the darkness of my contacts by 30% I only needed these for school or work. While I was unemployed I just used contacts with script since I wasn't doing any close work. The 30% reduction wasn't enough. I need to find a different color. The red makes it harder to read. So it may turn out I need orange or magenta but I won't know that unless I go to a place that can properly test for the right color. I can say they did go with my choice for transportable cctv (the magnilink) and for hand held cctv. On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact lenses > you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a rehabilitation > agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with tools, or resources > that you'll be able to do your work successfully in school or elsewhere, > most agencies will only either a, go with what they frequently do, like for > example getting clients jaws for windows even if they prefer window eyes. > Why? Because that agency is used to getting JAWS and the like. Or, B, go > with a cheap solution. Understandable, but unacceptable. Also, from my > personal experience. Counselors seem to like newly blind people because > they haven’t yet formed educated opinions about what's better, for them, in > the adaptive technology market. Those kind of blind people are much easier > to serve because they will take anything without question and don’t need > anything anymore complex. Also, even though this is going on a tangent, > they tend to lean just a bit more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I > mean by this is they like the clients with simple needs that can be > resolved once and that's it and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. > these are just my personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a > whole because there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, > and they understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs > and treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or > every social worker. I’d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention her > entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that provides > vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing support and > services to promote the acquisition of skills and experiential learning > that will support the consumer in meeting his/her independent living and > vocational goals as well as the technology to achieve and acquire such > learning, or accommodations, not technology, sorry. I didn't have my coffee > yet. Remember, they are there to provide, you, as a client, specific > barrier removal including assistive technology or computer training, as > well as Braille, use of low-vision devises for job related functions, > and/or other blindness related skill training as well as employment, etc., > any kind of training or the tools/technology to acquire the training or > job. Provision of rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services > and resources to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is > given: This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve independent > living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be able to do what > you need to do and to function independently, use that word. Independently. > That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart from that, I’d say tell > their board staff. Provide a logical case with fact sheets and all this to > present your case saying why you need these lenses. Make a clear case, not > an emotion filled one. That isn't what you need and that won’t get you > heard at all. present your case, first, to your counselor, and if she says > no again, tell her, in plain English, no metaphors, no if’s, ands, or buts, > tell her that you’re going to go up the chain of command because you were > denied technology to allow you to function independently. Do this with her > supervisor. Tell her the same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change > anything. Don't add anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. > Yes, if you have to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 11 01:33:52 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:33:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: References: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you I will contact Bob. I submitted a 15 page document with my appeal. I explained how each of their doctors would try to fit me with colored lenses. I contacted each of them and included the actual emails from them. The eye doctor in Indiana sent them a 4-5 page document on what they do which I included again in my appeal. I will be submitted a request for ZoomText with speech for both the mac and Windows next week. I am a Software Engineering major so on the computer all the time. Before school mac zoom was enough but it does not follow the insertion point just the mouse pointer. I will also be doing an internship this summer and need to have the right technology. The more successful my internships the better chance I have of finding employment upon graduation. On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that > the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't > already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is > superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You > should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with > your appeal. His phone number is: > 520-733-5894 > or > krezguy at cox.net > He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona > and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a > prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, > you should pursue it. > As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the > basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in > your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all > about getting screen reading software? > Best of luck, > Arielle > > On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact > > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a > > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with > > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in > > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what they > > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even if > > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting > > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but > > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to like > > newly blind people because they haven’t yet formed educated opinions > > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those > > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take > > anything without question and don’t need anything anymore complex. Also, > > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit > > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they like > > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it > > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my > > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because > > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they > > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and > > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a > > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is > > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, > > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or > > every social worker. I’d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention > > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that > > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing > > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and > > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her > > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to > > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, > > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to provide, > > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive > > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision > > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill > > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the > > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of > > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources > > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: > > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to > > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, > > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve > > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be > > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that > > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart > > from that, I’d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with > > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these > > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what > > you need and that won’t get you heard at all. present your case, first, > > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain English, > > no metaphors, no if’s, ands, or buts, tell her that you’re going to go > > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you > > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the > > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add > > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have > > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 03:20:02 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:20:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: References: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, What also might be beneficial is if you can get someone from the company in Indiana to substantiate your claims. I've run into issues like what Sophie described where my Rehab councelor originally planned to purchase something that was less expensive but not as practical for me. While my email justifying my request for the specific thing I needed was not paid particular attention, testimonials on the web about the low quality of the product they were going to buy me really helped seal my case. Granted, other factors played into it as well like since a lot of schools buy these cheaper, less sturdy models the ones I didn't want were out of stock and all that was left was what I consider the good kind, but the reviews did play a role I think. It may be worth a shot, especially if you can speak with someone who has done an exam for you from there in the past. On 4/10/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > Thank you I will contact Bob. > > I submitted a 15 page document with my appeal. I explained how each of > their doctors would try to fit me with colored lenses. I contacted each of > them and included the actual emails from them. The eye doctor in Indiana > sent them a 4-5 page document on what they do which I included again in my > appeal. > > I will be submitted a request for ZoomText with speech for both the mac and > Windows next week. I am a Software Engineering major so on the computer all > the time. Before school mac zoom was enough but it does not follow the > insertion point just the mouse pointer. I will also be doing an internship > this summer and need to have the right technology. The more successful my > internships the better chance I have of finding employment upon graduation. > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Arielle Silverman < > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > >> VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that >> the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't >> already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is >> superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You >> should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with >> your appeal. His phone number is: >> 520-733-5894 >> or >> krezguy at cox.net >> He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >> and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a >> prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, >> you should pursue it. >> As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the >> basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in >> your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all >> about getting screen reading software? >> Best of luck, >> Arielle >> >> On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact >> > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a >> > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with >> > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in >> > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what >> > they >> > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even >> > if >> > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting >> > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but >> > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to >> > like >> > newly blind people because they haven’t yet formed educated opinions >> > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those >> > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take >> > anything without question and don’t need anything anymore complex. >> > Also, >> > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit >> > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they >> > like >> > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it >> > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my >> > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because >> > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they >> > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and >> > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a >> > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is >> > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, >> > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or >> > every social worker. I’d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention >> > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that >> > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing >> > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and >> > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her >> > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to >> > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, >> > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to >> > provide, >> > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive >> > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision >> > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill >> > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the >> > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of >> > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources >> > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: >> > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to >> > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, >> > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve >> > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be >> > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that >> > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart >> > from that, I’d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with >> > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these >> > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what >> > you need and that won’t get you heard at all. present your case, first, >> > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain >> > English, >> > no metaphors, no if’s, ands, or buts, tell her that you’re going to go >> > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you >> > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the >> > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add >> > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have >> > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From pyyhkala at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 03:54:34 2013 From: pyyhkala at gmail.com (Mika Pyyhkala) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:54:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Blind VoiceOver Users To Test SideCar Ride Sharing App & Report Accessibility Experiences Message-ID: Download the app here: http://t.co/Sn1cpcQLyf File Accessibility Reports by Email to: e-hail at nfbma.org Twitter: @pyyhkala @NFBMA @EHaila11y Greetings, The NFB of Massachusetts and Mika Pyyhkala are investigating the accessibility of the SideCar ride sharing app to blind VoiceOver users with Apple iOS devices. Here are some questions and answers about this project: Q: What is SideCar Ride? A: SideCar Ride is one of several emerging E-Hail apps that allow you to request a ride or ground transportation via a mobile phone or device. Other E-Hail apps you may have heard of include Uber, Hailo, Lift, etc. These apps allow you to track the arrival of your vehicle with your smartphone, check the availability of nearby vehicles, complete payment electronically, and receive accessible digital email receipts. E-Hail apps have many benefits to riders and drivers that were previously not possible or available. Q: What citys is SideCar currently available in? A: San Francisco, Seattle, Los Angeles, Austin, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, Brooklyn, NY and Washington, D.C. Q: What are some of the more interesting features of the SideCar Ride app and service? A: SideCar advertises that users can see the number and location of as well as the ETA of the nearest SideCar vehicle available to give rides in your area based on your GPS position. Once you request a ride, you can track the vehicle as it approaches your pickup point. Also, SideCar Ride uses an innovative pricing model where you, the passenger, specify a "donation," amount to pay the driver. You may elect to pay nothing, to pay less than the suggested donation amount, to pay the exact suggested donation amount, or to pay more than the suggested donation amount. In other words, you as the rider, pick the amount you elect to pay for any given ride. The app also allows and requires you to rate your driver to close out and complete a ride transaction. Q: How can I find out more details about the SideCar Ride app and service? A: The SideCar Ride web site is located at http://side.cr The company is on Twitter @SideCar and also city specific Twitter accounts are available such as @SideCarBOS @SideCarDC etc. You can also email questions to support at side.cr Feel free to ask the company both general and accessibility related questions. You may be able to find out more about SideCar by searching on the internet or Youtube as well. Q: Are there any promotions or discounts that I can use to try SideCar Ride? A: An existing SideCar Ride user can refer you to the service, and each party receives a $10 credit. There are also various promotion codes that you may be able to find on Twitter or on the internet. If you know someone who uses SideCar Ride, they may be able to help you find discounts to try the service. Q: When I email e-hail at nfbma.org what kind of information should I include? A: Please include your full name, the city and state you tried SideCar, and your experience using the app with VoiceOver. You may, for example, describe how the signup process worked with VoiceOver, or how the process to request and complete a ride worked with VoiceOver. If you get stuck in any part of the process, please report this. Please also include a telephone number where we can contact you to get further information. Q: What will happen with the information I submit about SideCar Ride accessibility? A: Mika Pyyhkala and the NFB of Massachusetts are researching the accessibility of SideCar. We will work to address any accessibility issues that are found in the app or service. We are looking for both your experience in trying the service, and also for people who can help with any accessibility issues found in various SideCar citys. We will give you indstructions and more information after you file your initial accessibility report, and as we evaluate the accessibility of SideCar. Q: Is similar accessibility research being done regarding other E-Hail apps like Lift, Uber, Hailo, etc.? A: Yes, and if you have a story about one of these apps please feel free to send it to e-hail at nfbma.org Right now, it is most important that we have blind VoiceOver users test and evaluate the accessibility of SideCar. In the coming weeks and months, we may send out similar requests regarding other E-Hail apps. Q: If I don't live in a current SideCar city, can I still participate? A: Yes, you can still install and register for SideCar. You can use the service when you travel to a supported city, and the company is actively expanding the citys serviced. You can still provide VoiceOver accessibility feedback on the signup process for SideCar, and the overall interface of the app. Best, Mika Pyyhkala, Board Member National Federation of the Blind pyyhkala at gmail.com Twitter: @pyyhkala From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 04:09:23 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:09:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence Message-ID: Hi all, Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a little better about not judging others who make different choices than what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we disagree here. I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If someone always has another person do their laundry because they never tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never know these things until we try them. I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I think there are many other populations in this country who need a place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, either on our own or with assistance. Best, Arielle From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 11 04:12:37 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:12:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied In-Reply-To: References: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d@mx.google.com> <51660340.4060500@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Indiana eye doctor sent a detailed 4-5 page letter directly to them. I included it again in my appeal. On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > What also might be beneficial is if you can get someone from the > company in Indiana to substantiate your claims. I've run into issues > like what Sophie described where my Rehab councelor originally planned > to purchase something that was less expensive but not as practical for > me. While my email justifying my request for the specific thing I > needed was not paid particular attention, testimonials on the web > about the low quality of the product they were going to buy me really > helped seal my case. Granted, other factors played into it as well > like since a lot of schools buy these cheaper, less sturdy models the > ones I didn't want were out of stock and all that was left was what I > consider the good kind, but the reviews did play a role I think. It > may be worth a shot, especially if you can speak with someone who has > done an exam for you from there in the past. > > On 4/10/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > Thank you I will contact Bob. > > > > I submitted a 15 page document with my appeal. I explained how each of > > their doctors would try to fit me with colored lenses. I contacted each > of > > them and included the actual emails from them. The eye doctor in Indiana > > sent them a 4-5 page document on what they do which I included again in > my > > appeal. > > > > I will be submitted a request for ZoomText with speech for both the mac > and > > Windows next week. I am a Software Engineering major so on the computer > all > > the time. Before school mac zoom was enough but it does not follow the > > insertion point just the mouse pointer. I will also be doing an > internship > > this summer and need to have the right technology. The more successful my > > internships the better chance I have of finding employment upon > graduation. > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Arielle Silverman < > > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > > > >> VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that > >> the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't > >> already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is > >> superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You > >> should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with > >> your appeal. His phone number is: > >> 520-733-5894 > >> or > >> krezguy at cox.net > >> He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona > >> and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a > >> prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, > >> you should pursue it. > >> As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the > >> basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in > >> your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all > >> about getting screen reading software? > >> Best of luck, > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact > >> > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a > >> > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with > >> > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully > in > >> > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what > >> > they > >> > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even > >> > if > >> > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting > >> > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, > but > >> > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to > >> > like > >> > newly blind people because they haven’t yet formed educated opinions > >> > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. > Those > >> > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take > >> > anything without question and don’t need anything anymore complex. > >> > Also, > >> > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit > >> > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they > >> > like > >> > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it > >> > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my > >> > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because > >> > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they > >> > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and > >> > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a > >> > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is > >> > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, > >> > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency > or > >> > every social worker. I’d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention > >> > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that > >> > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing > >> > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and > >> > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting > his/her > >> > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to > >> > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, > >> > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to > >> > provide, > >> > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive > >> > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision > >> > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related > skill > >> > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the > >> > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of > >> > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources > >> > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: > >> > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to > >> > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of > techniques, > >> > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve > >> > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be > >> > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that > >> > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart > >> > from that, I’d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with > >> > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need > these > >> > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what > >> > you need and that won’t get you heard at all. present your case, > first, > >> > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain > >> > English, > >> > no metaphors, no if’s, ands, or buts, tell her that you’re going to go > >> > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow > you > >> > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the > >> > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add > >> > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have > >> > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 04:19:32 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:19:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01ce35a2$9a9bd100$cfd37300$@gmail.com> I'll say this. When I travel with someone, I hold their elbow due to our differences in walking speed, and the cues that I use. It's easier, and less aggravating. We can tale a little easier. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:09 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence Hi all, Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a little better about not judging others who make different choices than what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we disagree here. I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If someone always has another person do their laundry because they never tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never know these things until we try them. I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I think there are many other populations in this country who need a place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, either on our own or with assistance. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 04:24:41 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:24:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51663B09.5060500@gmail.com> That was awesome! Thank you for sharing that, and you’re right about everything. We’re well aware of the sacrifices but we choose what we choose, with reason. By the way, does anyone know where to get audio described movies other than blind mice? I'm surprised no one is selling them as digital downloads I also want to know were can I find a detailed podcast in the new victor reader stream? Thank you everyone From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 04:30:19 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:30:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: <51663B09.5060500@gmail.com> References: <51663B09.5060500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01ce35a4$1bf9afa0$53ed0ee0$@gmail.com> Is blind mice not good? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence That was awesome! Thank you for sharing that, and you're right about everything. We're well aware of the sacrifices but we choose what we choose, with reason. By the way, does anyone know where to get audio described movies other than blind mice? I'm surprised no one is selling them as digital downloads I also want to know were can I find a detailed podcast in the new victor reader stream? Thank you everyone _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 04:39:13 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:39:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: <000e01ce35a4$1bf9afa0$53ed0ee0$@gmail.com> References: <51663B09.5060500@gmail.com> <000e01ce35a4$1bf9afa0$53ed0ee0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51663E71.70808@gmail.com> I just grumble because I don't have a sendspace max account and can't download things using the sendspace wizard so I have to do it using the website, and then some. I've gotten some malware downloading using links from their website but when I downloaded them using the wizard everything was fine and dandy. From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 04:47:30 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:47:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite offensive about the wording of that particular speech. When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for themselves while they were in training. he basically said that students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair summation? I believe it is. If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point where their egoes inflate exponentially. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such a juvenile fashion? On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a > huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to > blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is > available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite > long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan > talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted > guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with > her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, > not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for > both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and > still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a > minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. > > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we > should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think > most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the > freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a > little better about not judging others who make different choices than > what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's > reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we > disagree here. > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't > change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same > kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be > called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my > fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently > around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with > something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up > something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi > driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of > freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about > whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get > is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the > inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe > that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really > need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If > someone always has another person do their laundry because they never > tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for > them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth > the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never > know these things until we try them. > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind > people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community > like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make > a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I > think there are many other populations in this country who need a > place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't > fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there > are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, > cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your > spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot > date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and > especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, > gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, > either on our own or with assistance. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 04:49:53 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:49:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: <51663E71.70808@gmail.com> References: <51663B09.5060500@gmail.com> <000e01ce35a4$1bf9afa0$53ed0ee0$@gmail.com> <51663E71.70808@gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, they're pro accounts now. That's a minor detail, really, but the pro accounts are more expensive, even if they do offer unlimited downloads as opposed to the former 8gb you could have with a max account daily. On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > I just grumble because I don't have a sendspace max account and can't > download things using the sendspace wizard so I have to do it using the > website, and then some. I've gotten some malware downloading using links > from their website but when I downloaded them using the wizard > everything was fine and dandy. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 04:52:24 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:52:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001001ce35a7$31f7b150$95e713f0$@gmail.com> I haven't listened to the speech, but apparently, I probably should. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree Oudinot Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite offensive about the wording of that particular speech. When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for themselves while they were in training. he basically said that students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair summation? I believe it is. If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point where their egoes inflate exponentially. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such a juvenile fashion? On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a > huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to > blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is > available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite > long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan > talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted > guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with > her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, > not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for > both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and > still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a > minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. > > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we > should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think > most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the > freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a > little better about not judging others who make different choices than > what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's > reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we > disagree here. > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't > change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same > kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be > called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my > fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently > around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with > something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up > something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi > driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of > freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about > whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get > is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the > inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe > that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really > need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If > someone always has another person do their laundry because they never > tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for > them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth > the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never > know these things until we try them. > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind > people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community > like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make > a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I > think there are many other populations in this country who need a > place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't > fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there > are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, > cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your > spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot > date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and > especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, > gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, > either on our own or with assistance. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 05:05:02 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:05:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Desiree, I think what he was saying was more from a psychological perspective. Arielle and anyone else studying psych more than I am can correct me if I'm wrong, but I took his phases as more of a general statement. You are right that it is different for everyone, but I also think the timid, over-independent, and balanced phases manifest in different ways for different people, and some might not have them in this order or may not experience all of them. I know a lot of people, congenitally blind or newly blind, get nervous about crossing streets or question their judgement when they're first learning things. I'm not quite sure if this is blindness-specific though, as I and other sighted and blind people I know, most people in general I think, can be timid the first time they do things too like starting college, moving to a new housing situation, or for our sighted friends learning things like how to drive a several ton metal machine. I also don't necessarily think the aggressive phase is really blindness-specific either, as teenagers are notorious for doing the same thing blind or sighted. I do, however, believe in the balanced phase. Although I remember being a little timid while I was still learning skills, I attribute it to me learning them more than my blindness playing the main role. I also went through a cocky phase a few years later when I totally refused sighted guide and help from others while I was going somewhere. But now I feel like I have the right amount of caution and confidence in my skills to be as independent as I want to be, make appropriate choices about when to use and not use sighted guide, etc. I don't necessarily think Kenneth Jernigan was slamming the students or putting himself on a pedistal in comparison to their incompetence, I took it more as just an analysis of psychological states. It sounds a little more pinpointed towards blindness than I really think it is, but that was what I got out of it, more of an analysis of frames of mind about blindness that effect independence than a slam against the students. On 4/11/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get > some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite > offensive about the wording of that particular speech. > When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several > letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he > spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was > free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him > independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for > themselves while they were in training. he basically said that > students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first > is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student > doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is > aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly > refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, > hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair > summation? I believe it is. > If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that > every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is > hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, > for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust > to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about > it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't > exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state > of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people > are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for > sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For > a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that > everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack > of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any > favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students > doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all > humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very > well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and > situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by > emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do > something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point > where their egoes inflate exponentially. > I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me > a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought > I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, > what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for > training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such > a juvenile fashion? > > On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >> >> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >> disagree here. >> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >> know these things until we try them. >> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >> either on our own or with assistance. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From samnelson1 at verizon.net Thu Apr 11 05:07:15 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:07:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001ce3672$6fbc0dd0$4f342970$@verizon.net> Hi Arielle, Thanks for sharing all this! It's a very balanced perspective. My therapist taught me this word today, dialectic. It means two things that at first seem opposite can exist at the same time. I think this illustrates that. And I agree with Robert. Considering the trade-offs involved is part of making the decision to come here at least it was for me. One sacrifice for me for example, is that coming here I had to leave my cat behind. I honestly don't know if I'll ever see him again. If I had stayed in MA one option I could have chosen was a shared living program where I was matched with a companion, sort of a one on one Friedman type thing. But the matching process might have taken a year or more and I absolutely could not have waited that long at my parents and the sacrifice for different friends to take me would have been too much on them and I also wouldn't want to put that on them. In shared living I would have been allowed to have pets. Here unfortunately we aren't. However, sometimes it takes being creative. I have found a couple of visiting pet therapy programs that take cats to places like Friedman and am researching them in order to present a case to activities about having them come here maybe a couple times a month or something. Especially if it's free they'll probably do it. I could also go to an animal shelter to volunteer though I worry about being possibly scratched by random cats that might have diseases or something. I would think the pet therapy cats would be healthy but you never know in a shelter. Though they're rare I could one day get a service cat if I wanted to and make the case that it helps with mental health issues I have. I will say the spending money is a big thing for some people. But at least for my personal situation even having less spending money is worth it. With where I live providing food/ cleaning, and what we pay them covering everything else, you know electric/ rent/ all that, there isn't really much I feel I need to buy. You learn to save, and sometimes unexpected and amazing things happened. Doing therapy type things is very important for me to have some kind of emotional balance and outlits. In college I was used to being able to pay a reasonable price for this and was fine with it. I happened to write to a dance therapist who's website I really resonated with. I was just writing admiring her website. I said in passing that I'd probably work with her if I had the money. Because she's amazing she offered me at first, three sessions for free. Because we connected so well, and because she's so goodhearted she's extended this to seeing me once a month. In adition I found a place I can go to once a week with an intern for $10/ session which works for me. She's very good. So I feel things have a way of working out in unexpected ways. I do do my own laundry myself by the way, that I was taught to do and it stuck. Other things I was sort of taught to do and they just didn't take hold, like cooking. It was just too anxiety producing I think for both me and my family equally, you know the stove and the oven and all that. So I'm good with the sacrifice of not being able to choose exactly what I want to eat every day. At college my roomates and I really didn't clean the room much. I really like having housekeeping services because at least I know once a week everything will be nice and clean. And the housekeeper has this cute accent and says "I love you honey," every time she sees me, and that brightens my day! I should say, if I haven't already, that within the community in different ways the CNAS do encourage independence and doing things for ourselves. This one CAN always bugs me about picking up my room. I know of a resident who when he first got here had the CNAS take him everywhere around the building. Eventually he's gotten to the point where he can go some places himself and that's a big step for him. I know it probably doesn't seem like as much training as the training centers or other places, but I wanted to point it is emphasized in some way. I totally agree with you about offering more supportive living communities, for all types of populations being a good thing. I personally wouldn't say that other populations need it more than the blind, but I can see from your perspective how you would think of it like that. I do think more places need to be out there, particularly for people with mental health concerns. At the moment in Chicago, many of these people are in psychiatric nursing homes, that for the most part quite honestly sound like pretty terrible places. And yet nothing gets done about this. One of my future projects is discussing this with NAMI or some other related organization. So hopefully one day we'll get there! Again thanks for your thoughts. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:09 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence Hi all, Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a little better about not judging others who make different choices than what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we disagree here. I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If someone always has another person do their laundry because they never tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never know these things until we try them. I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I think there are many other populations in this country who need a place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, either on our own or with assistance. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 05:18:22 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 01:18:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601ce35aa$d2cee550$786caff0$@gmail.com> I definitely plan to watch the speech, but his psychology sounds somewhat accurate; for I have witnessed that amongst the Blind before. However, it also sounds somewhat like what a human does naturally. It may be a little more extreme amongst blind people but it sounds like an almost normal state. Maybe not with everyone, but enough people to at least make a coralation. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence Desiree, I think what he was saying was more from a psychological perspective. Arielle and anyone else studying psych more than I am can correct me if I'm wrong, but I took his phases as more of a general statement. You are right that it is different for everyone, but I also think the timid, over-independent, and balanced phases manifest in different ways for different people, and some might not have them in this order or may not experience all of them. I know a lot of people, congenitally blind or newly blind, get nervous about crossing streets or question their judgement when they're first learning things. I'm not quite sure if this is blindness-specific though, as I and other sighted and blind people I know, most people in general I think, can be timid the first time they do things too like starting college, moving to a new housing situation, or for our sighted friends learning things like how to drive a several ton metal machine. I also don't necessarily think the aggressive phase is really blindness-specific either, as teenagers are notorious for doing the same thing blind or sighted. I do, however, believe in the balanced phase. Although I remember being a little timid while I was still learning skills, I attribute it to me learning them more than my blindness playing the main role. I also went through a cocky phase a few years later when I totally refused sighted guide and help from others while I was going somewhere. But now I feel like I have the right amount of caution and confidence in my skills to be as independent as I want to be, make appropriate choices about when to use and not use sighted guide, etc. I don't necessarily think Kenneth Jernigan was slamming the students or putting himself on a pedistal in comparison to their incompetence, I took it more as just an analysis of psychological states. It sounds a little more pinpointed towards blindness than I really think it is, but that was what I got out of it, more of an analysis of frames of mind about blindness that effect independence than a slam against the students. On 4/11/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get > some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite > offensive about the wording of that particular speech. > When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several > letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he > spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was > free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him > independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for > themselves while they were in training. he basically said that > students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first > is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student > doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is > aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly > refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, > hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair > summation? I believe it is. > If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that > every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is > hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, > for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust > to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about > it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't > exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state > of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people > are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for > sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For > a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that > everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack > of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any > favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students > doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all > humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very > well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and > situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by > emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do > something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point > where their egoes inflate exponentially. > I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me > a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought > I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, > what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for > training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such > a juvenile fashion? > > On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >> >> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >> disagree here. >> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >> know these things until we try them. >> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >> either on our own or with assistance. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 05:21:02 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:21:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: <001001ce35a7$31f7b150$95e713f0$@gmail.com> References: <001001ce35a7$31f7b150$95e713f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5166483E.2070307@gmail.com> so can someone link the speech? From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 05:28:20 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:28:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kaiti, I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you for the most part. You're especially right when you say that individual personalities, rather than the characteristic of blindness, are what causes different traits to manifest themselves in people. They may be common, but they are not the be all end all, nor should they be taken as such. I just found the wording of the article to be condescending, which I really didn't appreciate. I don't think any sensible adult wants to read that they're going to turn into a rebellious, callous person, even if it is only temporary. No one does, really. Most people went through that in their teenage years already. However, in fairness, I can see how it might happen the way Jernigan described. For a person who's been sheltered all their lives, perhaps by well-meaning parents or a school for the blind, suddenly being able to be independent might just send them into such a state of shock that they might go through those phases in rapid succession, or even be stuck in one. But just like a bird leaving the nest on its first flight, he may wobble, and he may be spotted by some hungry predator and have to fall back into the safety and security of home, but eventually those wings will open to their full potential and he'll rule his own section of sky. I use this example because different birds achieve different things. Some people may want to live their lives as dominant hawks or eagles, intimidating and ruling over their territory. Some want to be falcons, living fast and driving hard. Some may be content to be sparrows or robins; sweet, gentle, but average. You see, it's not the size or the stature of one's achievments that matter, it's all in what they are, and what they can do. Just about everyone is worth something. I won't deny that there are truly evil people in this world, but I think what we all need to remember, and by now this is a point that's been well reiterated, is that no matter what the big bad eagle thinks of a lowly seagull, for example, they both have their brothers and sisters, their comrades, others who are similar. On 4/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Desiree, > > I think what he was saying was more from a psychological perspective. > Arielle and anyone else studying psych more than I am can correct me > if I'm wrong, but I took his phases as more of a general statement. > You are right that it is different for everyone, but I also think the > timid, over-independent, and balanced phases manifest in different > ways for different people, and some might not have them in this order > or may not experience all of them. I know a lot of people, > congenitally blind or newly blind, get nervous about crossing streets > or question their judgement when they're first learning things. I'm > not quite sure if this is blindness-specific though, as I and other > sighted and blind people I know, most people in general I think, can > be timid the first time they do things too like starting college, > moving to a new housing situation, or for our sighted friends learning > things like how to drive a several ton metal machine. I also don't > necessarily think the aggressive phase is really blindness-specific > either, as teenagers are notorious for doing the same thing blind or > sighted. I do, however, believe in the balanced phase. Although I > remember being a little timid while I was still learning skills, I > attribute it to me learning them more than my blindness playing the > main role. I also went through a cocky phase a few years later when I > totally refused sighted guide and help from others while I was going > somewhere. But now I feel like I have the right amount of caution and > confidence in my skills to be as independent as I want to be, make > appropriate choices about when to use and not use sighted guide, etc. > I don't necessarily think Kenneth Jernigan was slamming the students > or putting himself on a pedistal in comparison to their incompetence, > I took it more as just an analysis of psychological states. It sounds > a little more pinpointed towards blindness than I really think it is, > but that was what I got out of it, more of an analysis of frames of > mind about blindness that effect independence than a slam against the > students. > > On 4/11/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get >> some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite >> offensive about the wording of that particular speech. >> When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several >> letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he >> spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was >> free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him >> independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for >> themselves while they were in training. he basically said that >> students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first >> is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student >> doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is >> aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly >> refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, >> hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair >> summation? I believe it is. >> If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that >> every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is >> hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, >> for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust >> to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about >> it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't >> exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state >> of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people >> are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for >> sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For >> a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that >> everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack >> of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any >> favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students >> doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all >> humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very >> well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and >> situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by >> emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do >> something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point >> where their egoes inflate exponentially. >> I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me >> a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought >> I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, >> what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for >> training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such >> a juvenile fashion? >> >> On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >>> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >>> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >>> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >>> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >>> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >>> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >>> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >>> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >>> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >>> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >>> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >>> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >>> >>> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >>> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >>> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >>> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >>> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >>> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >>> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >>> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >>> disagree here. >>> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >>> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >>> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >>> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >>> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >>> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >>> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >>> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >>> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >>> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >>> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >>> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >>> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >>> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >>> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >>> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >>> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >>> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >>> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >>> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >>> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >>> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >>> know these things until we try them. >>> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >>> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >>> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >>> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >>> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >>> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >>> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >>> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >>> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >>> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >>> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >>> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >>> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >>> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >>> either on our own or with assistance. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From kwakmiso at aol.com Thu Apr 11 05:27:55 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0048C74A2B1DF-DB0-3A9DD@Webmail-m120.sysops.aol.com> I agree with Kaiti about the phases we go through. I have been blind since birth and when I read the speech I nodded when he described the stages students at training center go through because I could point out times in my life that were relatable to those stages. The timing and form of it could be different for anyone but I think whether one is blind since birth or becomes blind in the middle of his/her life we go through different stages mentally. Lastly, whatever being a "successful blind person" may truly mean I think it's important to continue striving for improvement as an individual. -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Wed, Apr 10, 2013 10:05 pm Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence Desiree, I think what he was saying was more from a psychological perspective. Arielle and anyone else studying psych more than I am can correct me if I'm wrong, but I took his phases as more of a general statement. You are right that it is different for everyone, but I also think the timid, over-independent, and balanced phases manifest in different ways for different people, and some might not have them in this order or may not experience all of them. I know a lot of people, congenitally blind or newly blind, get nervous about crossing streets or question their judgement when they're first learning things. I'm not quite sure if this is blindness-specific though, as I and other sighted and blind people I know, most people in general I think, can be timid the first time they do things too like starting college, moving to a new housing situation, or for our sighted friends learning things like how to drive a several ton metal machine. I also don't necessarily think the aggressive phase is really blindness-specific either, as teenagers are notorious for doing the same thing blind or sighted. I do, however, believe in the balanced phase. Although I remember being a little timid while I was still learning skills, I attribute it to me learning them more than my blindness playing the main role. I also went through a cocky phase a few years later when I totally refused sighted guide and help from others while I was going somewhere. But now I feel like I have the right amount of caution and confidence in my skills to be as independent as I want to be, make appropriate choices about when to use and not use sighted guide, etc. I don't necessarily think Kenneth Jernigan was slamming the students or putting himself on a pedistal in comparison to their incompetence, I took it more as just an analysis of psychological states. It sounds a little more pinpointed towards blindness than I really think it is, but that was what I got out of it, more of an analysis of frames of mind about blindness that effect independence than a slam against the students. On 4/11/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get > some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite > offensive about the wording of that particular speech. > When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several > letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he > spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was > free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him > independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for > themselves while they were in training. he basically said that > students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first > is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student > doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is > aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly > refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, > hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair > summation? I believe it is. > If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that > every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is > hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, > for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust > to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about > it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't > exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state > of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people > are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for > sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For > a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that > everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack > of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any > favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students > doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all > humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very > well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and > situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by > emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do > something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point > where their egoes inflate exponentially. > I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me > a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought > I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, > what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for > training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such > a juvenile fashion? > > On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >> >> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >> disagree here. >> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >> know these things until we try them. >> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >> either on our own or with assistance. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 06:32:29 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 02:32:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: <8D0048C74A2B1DF-DB0-3A9DD@Webmail-m120.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0048C74A2B1DF-DB0-3A9DD@Webmail-m120.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Absolutely, goals are individual for a reason. Everyone is going to want to accomplish different things for themselves and in different ways. In most cases the way one chooses to do something isn't necessarily wrong if it's different, and that's what we get so hooked up on as others have already said in the thread. I can't remember to said it, (and I'm too lazy to go hunting for the person's name at past 2:00 in the morning), but someone on this list said that that was one of the negative attributes of the NFB. I kind of say yes and no to this. I have met some hard core do-everything-on-your-own-or-else-you're-not-independent people in the NFB, but I have also met plenty of awesome people who are very independent by their own definitions and who make reasonable judgements about what help they do or do not take, what things they want to do, how they want to go about doing them, etc. Overall, the vision and philosophy of the NFB is good, I just think that like very organization there are some who take things a little more literally than others. Because of this, I don't have a beef at all with the NFB as an organization, even if I may view the super-independence thing as over the top myself. Sam, that's good to hear they encourage independence. I know that for some people just getting the motivation or the confidence to do something on their own is a big deal, so it's great that they're encouraging that in things like independent travel around the campus. On 4/11/13, Miso Kwak wrote: > I agree with Kaiti about the phases we go through. > I have been blind since birth and when I read the speech I nodded when > he described the stages students at training center go through because > I could point out times in my life that were relatable to those stages. > The timing and form of it could be different for anyone but I think > whether one is blind since birth or becomes blind in the middle of > his/her life we go through different stages mentally. > Lastly, whatever being a "successful blind person" may truly mean I > think it's important to continue striving for improvement as an > individual. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Sent: Wed, Apr 10, 2013 10:05 pm > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > > Desiree, > > I think what he was saying was more from a psychological perspective. > Arielle and anyone else studying psych more than I am can correct me > if I'm wrong, but I took his phases as more of a general statement. > You are right that it is different for everyone, but I also think the > timid, over-independent, and balanced phases manifest in different > ways for different people, and some might not have them in this order > or may not experience all of them. I know a lot of people, > congenitally blind or newly blind, get nervous about crossing streets > or question their judgement when they're first learning things. I'm > not quite sure if this is blindness-specific though, as I and other > sighted and blind people I know, most people in general I think, can > be timid the first time they do things too like starting college, > moving to a new housing situation, or for our sighted friends learning > things like how to drive a several ton metal machine. I also don't > necessarily think the aggressive phase is really blindness-specific > either, as teenagers are notorious for doing the same thing blind or > sighted. I do, however, believe in the balanced phase. Although I > remember being a little timid while I was still learning skills, I > attribute it to me learning them more than my blindness playing the > main role. I also went through a cocky phase a few years later when I > totally refused sighted guide and help from others while I was going > somewhere. But now I feel like I have the right amount of caution and > confidence in my skills to be as independent as I want to be, make > appropriate choices about when to use and not use sighted guide, etc. > I don't necessarily think Kenneth Jernigan was slamming the students > or putting himself on a pedistal in comparison to their incompetence, > I took it more as just an analysis of psychological states. It sounds > a little more pinpointed towards blindness than I really think it is, > but that was what I got out of it, more of an analysis of frames of > mind about blindness that effect independence than a slam against the > students. > > On 4/11/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get >> some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite >> offensive about the wording of that particular speech. >> When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several >> letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he >> spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was >> free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him >> independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for >> themselves while they were in training. he basically said that >> students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first >> is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student >> doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is >> aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly >> refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, >> hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair >> summation? I believe it is. >> If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that >> every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is >> hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, >> for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust >> to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about >> it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't >> exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state >> of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people >> are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for >> sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For >> a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that >> everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack >> of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any >> favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students >> doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all >> humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very >> well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and >> situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by >> emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do >> something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point >> where their egoes inflate exponentially. >> I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me >> a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought >> I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, >> what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for >> training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such >> a juvenile fashion? >> >> On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >>> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >>> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which > is >>> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >>> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >>> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >>> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >>> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >>> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient > for >>> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others > and >>> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >>> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >>> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >>> >>> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >>> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >>> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >>> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >>> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be > a >>> little better about not judging others who make different choices > than >>> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >>> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >>> disagree here. >>> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >>> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >>> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >>> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >>> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >>> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >>> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >>> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >>> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >>> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >>> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >>> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >>> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >>> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we > get >>> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >>> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >>> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >>> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >>> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >>> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be > for >>> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not > worth >>> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >>> know these things until we try them. >>> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >>> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >>> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help > make >>> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >>> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >>> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >>> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >>> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >>> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >>> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >>> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >>> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >>> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >>> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >>> either on our own or with assistance. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From devnull-nabs-l at pcdesk.net Thu Apr 11 12:32:30 2013 From: devnull-nabs-l at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:32:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> Well, I have immediate examples I can present for both the second and the third phase. First, the balanced independence. I work on an Air Force base. I could certainly get there by bus if I had to, but there are problems. First, the route would take me over an hour each way, even though I only live about 15 minutes from the base just because of how the buses run. Second, the bus does not enter the military base so I would have to walk from the gate to the building I work in. I have a family member who drives me to and from work. To compensate her for this, I pay her auto insurance payment every month, as well as gas if she needs it. (sometimes the gas is not just for my trips, it's for others she makes as well) Some would argue it's dependence, but I see it more as compensating for the fact I don't have a car. I'm simply exercising one option for dealing with that fact. A sighted person who couldn't or simply didn't drive might do something similar. Now, the militant thing. I'm not overly aggressive about this, but I hesitate to ask people in the office for rides. I'll accept one if it's offered, like if everyone in the office is going to a social function or something like that. However, I won't even ask for a ride to the gate or to one of the other locations on base. The reason for this is that I know peple tend to make snap judgements about blindness, and I don't want to give anyone in the office an excuse to do that by asking for a ride or something like that. It's probably a bit irrational, honestly, because there are other things I will sometimes ask for help with and it's never a problem. For instance, they put a keypad with raised buttons at the entrence to the two main buildings my department uses. The standard one is this touch sensitive thing, and it makes it hard to enter the PIN once I swipe my access card. I could do it if I had to using my very limited sight and a little luck, but this way makes it so I can do it much faster. Most people in my office know precisely why at least one door in each of the buildings has a keypad like that now where it didn't before. So yeah, I'm probably being rediculous about the not asking for rides policy. Joe From isaac.hebert at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 13:53:41 2013 From: isaac.hebert at gmail.com (Isaac Hebert) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:53:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Message-ID: On 4/11/13, nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org wrote: > Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a > supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago (Hope > Paulos) > 2. Re: a wuestion about Ipad or Imac (Cindy Bennett) > 3. iPad question about autocorrect (Cindy Bennett) > 4. Re: a wuestion about Ipad or Imac (ryan Bishop) > 5. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Sam Nelson) > 6. audio description review: She Kills Monsters > (Robert William Kingett) > 7. Re: Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a > supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago (Sam Nelson) > 8. Re: Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a > supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago (Sam Nelson) > 9. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Sophie Trist) > 10. Re: Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a > supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > (melissa Green) > 11. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Robert William Kingett) > 12. Re: Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman Place, a > supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago (Sam Nelson) > 13. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Robert William Kingett) > 14. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Arielle Silverman) > 15. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Suzanne Germano) > 16. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Suzanne Germano) > 17. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Kaiti Shelton) > 18. Looking for Blind VoiceOver Users To Test SideCar Ride > Sharing App & Report Accessibility Experiences (Mika Pyyhkala) > 19. NFB and Independence (Arielle Silverman) > 20. Re: Voc Rehab request denied (Suzanne Germano) > 21. Re: NFB and Independence (justin williams) > 22. Re: NFB and Independence (Robert William Kingett) > 23. Re: NFB and Independence (justin williams) > 24. Re: NFB and Independence (Robert William Kingett) > 25. Re: NFB and Independence (Desiree Oudinot) > 26. Re: NFB and Independence (Desiree Oudinot) > 27. Re: NFB and Independence (justin williams) > 28. Re: NFB and Independence (Kaiti Shelton) > 29. Re: NFB and Independence (Sam Nelson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:26:48 -0400 > From: Hope Paulos > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi there! I believe the iPad has the AutoCorrect feature. I know the iPhone > and the iPods have them! They also have a dictation feature. This might be > helpful as well! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 10, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Robert William Kingett > wrote: > >> thank you.I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who >> use an I pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own >> accessibility solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I >> use it to write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and >> newspapers, even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in >> the May issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm >> looking into blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always >> published various blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, >> essays, and poetry in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! >> Anyway, I have a question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad >> and I want to know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want >> to get a dock so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've >> also been thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range >> right now. Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word >> like when I type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I >> will be writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've >> been working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the >> fan in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won?t >> be able to write at all. It?s what I do, after all. So if anyone can >> answer this question I?d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to >> where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the >> founding fathers? etc. I change them often depending on the article that >> I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. >> You guys are the best! >> >> /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing >> archives >> */ >> >> *Click here to see my writing archive >> * >> >> >> *Click here to view my website/ >> / * >> >> */ >> /* >> >> */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * >> *Tel: 850 764 2161 * >> >> Facebook >> >> Twitter >> >> LinkedIn >> >> YouTube >> >> WordPress >> >> Blog RSS >> >> >> My latest comedy review: ?Words With Girls?: Gay, Ironic and Masterful >> >> >> My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long >> Will I Cry? (play) >> >> >> WordPress >> >> My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and >> it?s only Monday! >> >> >> Read more >> | >> My blog >> >> >> Share on Facebook >> >> ?Share on Twitter >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> >> >> >> Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch >> in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog >> >> >> Like >> >> ? Comment >> >> ? Share >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> Designed with WiseStamp - >> Get >> yours >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:23:31 -0700 > From: Cindy Bennett > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a wuestion about Ipad or Imac > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Sorry Robert, I didn't see this separate message. I just saw the one > at the end of the other thread. > > Cindy > > On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who use an I >> pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own accessibility >> solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I use it to >> write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and newspapers, >> even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in the May >> issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm looking into >> blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always published various >> blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, essays, and poetry >> in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! Anyway, I have a >> question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad and I want to >> know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want to get a dock >> so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've also been >> thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range right now. >> Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word like when I >> type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I will be >> writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've been >> working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the fan >> in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won?t be >> able to write at all. It?s what I do, after all. So if anyone can answer >> this question I?d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to >> where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the >> founding fathers? etc. I change them often depending on the article that >> I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. >> You guys are the best! >> >> /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing >> archives >> */ >> >> *Click here to see my writing archive >> * >> >> *Click here to view my website/ >> / * >> >> */ >> /* >> >> */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * >> *Tel: 850 764 2161 * >> >> Facebook >> >> Twitter >> >> LinkedIn >> >> YouTube >> >> WordPress >> >> Blog RSS >> >> My latest comedy review: ?Words With Girls?: Gay, Ironic and Masterful >> >> My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long >> Will I Cry? (play) >> >> WordPress >> >> My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day >> and it?s only Monday! >> >> >> Read more >> | >> My blog >> >> Share on Facebook >> >> ?Share on Twitter >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> >> >> Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch >> in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog >> >> >> Like >> >> ? Comment >> >> ? Share >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> Designed with WiseStamp - >> Get >> yours >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:21:44 -0700 > From: Cindy Bennett > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: [nabs-l] iPad question about autocorrect > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi Robert, > > I do not have all of the answers to your question, but I did change > the subject line, so others will probably respond. > > In my experience with using an iPhone, the autocorrect works if I am > touch typing but not if I am using my blue tooth keyboard. I know that > you can create shortcuts on the iPhone such as eml for email, etc. I > do think that these shortcuts autocorrect when using a keyboard. I > just tried omw on my keyboard, and it corrected to on my way. But I do > not believe that using a blue tooth keyboard will cause the spell > check autocorrect function to work. Make sense? I could be wrong, and > the iPad may have a more sophistocated autocorrect function. Also, I > am not using the Apple blue tooth keyboard, and that may make a > difference as well, but hoepfully someone else will be able to > respond. > > Cindy > > On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> thank you.I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who >> use an I pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own >> accessibility solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. >> I use it to write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and >> newspapers, even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in >> the May issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm >> looking into blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always >> published various blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, >> essays, and poetry in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! >> Anyway, I have a question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad >> and I want to know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want >> to get a dock so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've >> also been thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range >> right now. Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word >> like when I type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? >> I will be writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because >> I've been working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried >> that the fan in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness >> because I won?t be able to write at all. It?s what I do, after all. So >> if anyone can answer this question I?d really appreciate it. I have auto >> correct set to where, if I type something short like I T f f, it >> translates into if the founding fathers? etc. I change them often >> depending on the article that I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much >> for any answers you may have. You guys are the best! >> >> /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing >> archives >> */ >> >> *Click here to see my writing archive >> * >> >> >> *Click here to view my website/ >> / * >> >> */ >> /* >> >> */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * >> *Tel: 850 764 2161 * >> >> Facebook >> >> Twitter >> >> LinkedIn >> >> YouTube >> >> WordPress >> >> Blog RSS >> >> >> My latest comedy review: ?Words With Girls?: Gay, Ironic and Masterful >> >> >> My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long >> Will I Cry? (play) >> >> >> WordPress >> >> My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day and >> it?s only Monday! >> >> >> Read more >> | >> My blog >> >> >> Share on Facebook >> >> ?Share on Twitter >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> >> >> >> Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch >> in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog >> >> >> Like >> >> ? Comment >> >> ? Share >> >> >> >> Get this email app! >> >> >> Designed with WiseStamp - >> Get >> yours >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:21:46 -0700 > From: ryan Bishop > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a wuestion about Ipad or Imac > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > hello. i'm going to be honest, > IPads do have auto correct on, but there mostly for spelling mistakes. > They do understand some short term words, it just depends, I believe > you can also add your own short terms in the dictionary. I will look > more in to this, because I have IPads around at school, and I have an > IPhone. > > On 4/10/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> Sorry Robert, I didn't see this separate message. I just saw the one >> at the end of the other thread. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> I just have a question since there's a lot of blind people who use an I >>> pad. I'm looking at getting an I pad. I've devised my own accessibility >>> solution in Microsoft Word for typing called auto correct. I use it to >>> write the articles that I write and edit for magazines and newspapers, >>> even in the Braille monitor. I have an article coming up in the May >>> issue of the Braille monitor by the way. I'm happy that I'm looking into >>> blindness publications, as, up until now, I've always published various >>> blindness related reviews, and articles, editorials, essays, and poetry >>> in mainstream publications. It's fun exploitation! Anyway, I have a >>> question about the ipad. I'm looking at getting an ipad and I want to >>> know of the I pad has the autocorrect feature on t. I want to get a dock >>> so that way I will have a full keyboard to type with. I've also been >>> thinking about an IMac but that's just not in the price range right now. >>> Does apple have something like autocorrect in Microsoft Word like when I >>> type C M, D, and hit the space bar to changes it to command? I will be >>> writing for more venues and my laptop is just fine, because I've been >>> working with it professionally for 4 years and I'm worried that the fan >>> in it stops working and then I weep in utter sadness because I won?t be >>> able to write at all. It?s what I do, after all. So if anyone can answer >>> this question I?d really appreciate it. I have auto correct set to >>> where, if I type something short like I T f f, it translates into if the >>> founding fathers? etc. I change them often depending on the article that >>> I'm writing, or email. Thank you very much for any answers you may have. >>> You guys are the best! >>> >>> /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing >>> archives >>> */ >>> >>> *Click here to see my writing archive >>> * >>> >>> *Click here to view my website/ >>> / * >>> >>> */ >>> /* >>> >>> */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * >>> *Tel: 850 764 2161 * >>> >>> Facebook >>> >>> Twitter >>> >>> LinkedIn >>> >>> YouTube >>> >>> WordPress >>> >>> Blog RSS >>> >>> My latest comedy review: ?Words With Girls?: Gay, Ironic and Masterful >>> >>> My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long >>> Will I Cry? (play) >>> >>> WordPress >>> >>> My latest post in my blog:Guest Blogging and RSS merging: What a day >>> and it?s only Monday! >>> >>> >>> Read more >>> | >>> My blog >>> >>> Share on Facebook >>> >>> ?Share on Twitter >>> >>> >>> >>> Get this email app! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Latest post: Google's Internet and TV service, Google Fiber, will launch >>> in Austin next year. ... Google Fiber Blog >>> >>> >>> Like >>> >>> ? Comment >>> >>> ? Share >>> >>> >>> >>> Get this email app! >>> >>> >>> Designed with WiseStamp - >>> Get >>> yours >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > ---------------- > Ryan Bishop > E-Mail Address: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com > Mobile Number: --- > "A Loss of site, Never a loss of vission" > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:44:39 -0500 > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: <002201ce3634$9b2e1190$d18a34b0$@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Hi Suzanne, > I don't have any answers for you on this, other than to pursue the appeal, > but I wanted to write and say I'm sorry this happened. > To me, your request makes perfect sense. But sometimes voc rehab can be so > frustrating, it just doesn't make sense! I just wanted to say I know where > you're coming from in requesting something and having it denied. I'd like a > braille lite, for example, because I had one before and then my mom fried > it. I like them better than the braillenote because you don't need to send > out every two years to get the battery replaced. I don't need the fancy > stuff on the braillenote with e-mail and everything. I just need the > wordprocessing part, and to make sure it has a compact flash slot so I > can download books on it. > Anyway, my caseworker in IL said that there was no way I could get any > kind of technology like that unless I was going to work or school. And it > sounded like I would to have been going to work or school for awhile before > they'd get it. But the crazier thing she said that was in order to get a > braillenote or anything similar I'd have to take a test in reading and > writing braille! I mean talk about a waste of time! > I found someone who was selling their braille lite for a price I or my > family could save up for, so I'll probably end up doing that. Sometimes > honestly they're more trouble than they're worth. But I know how hard it > can be when you really do need their help and they're just making things a > million times worse. > I really hope you get the Indiana appointment soon! Maybe go to your > caseworker's supervisor and make your case to them? That sometimes works. > I've found sometimes the supervisors are more understanding than the people > we actually work with. , > I hope this helps. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > > I requested that voc rehab pay for me to have and comprehensive examination > and contacts lenses from Eye Associates in Indiana. The specialize in > Achromatopsia and spend 4 hours working to find the right color contacts to > match each person's needs. > > I have used red lenses for years but now that I am back in school and > reading a lot and the classrooms are extremely bright. I have found the > need > to find a better color. > > They denied it because they use 3 vendors in Arizona (where I live) for low > vision services. None of these 3 do the extensive exam. In Indiana I try on > several color actual contacts then see how they work for reading how they > work with my sunglasses for out side. My prescription is in glasses because > it makes my near vision (which I use mostly at school) very blurry) But I > need the color filter due to extreme photophobia. > > I only asked for the cost of the exam (above medicare) and the actual > contacts. I did nto ask them to cover any transportation costs. > > They claim they cannot use out of state services if it is available in > Arizona. I explained that yes they have low vision exams but none can do > what the one in Indiana can do. One even tried to tell me to have my > prescription in my clear contacts then have multiple colored glasses even > after I explained I cannot do the script in the contacts or I cannot read, > use my computer, write without a headache from it being blurry. > > I filed an appeal but my appointment is May 14th. I am going when I will > already be in the midwest for my daughter's college graduation. > > Any pointers? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:52:07 -0500 > From: Robert William Kingett > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] audio description review: She Kills Monsters > Message-ID: <5165DF07.9050208 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > CRITICULOUS quest log. > > HP: *27* > > Ability scores, *infinite* > > Psionic ability: *word choice, diction, cute simile. Magical pronouns* > > Extraordinary senses: *audio description*. > > Skills: *critical perception, types with three fingers, types 40 words > per minute* > > Feats: *tenure, cute adjectives, plush sentences, and knowledge of comma > placement.* > > *FINAL ENTRY.* > > Greetings traveler, it is I, Criticuous. I feel that I should explain my > immediate action of perusing the lost scrolls of Qui Nguyen, a legend > here in this stadium. I feel as though I should dictate my exact > happenings so this way it will be clear to my fellow party, and others, > where I disappeared to for an hour an 45 minutes. > > I was at the pub down at Halsted Street acquiring training for my spells > and abilities. Recognizing me from mystic lands such as America?s > comedy, com, and various other online communities, a Mage named Evanore > invited me to a judging. I was honored that he had picked me to attend > the epic presentation of she Kills Monsters, which takes place in a > distant magical land called Athens, Ohio. 1995. Perhaps this was a trap > to loot me. I decided to travel with this very tall usher to this event. > Perhaps I would level up. > > I knew that, before I entered the grand chamber that was dubbed > Steppenwolf Theater Company, I?d have to furiously level up and prepare > for this performance. I acquired a special ability called audio > description, which was a special mystical voice that would tell my > visually impaired eyes what would be happening. I made sure that my Meta > was all the way up before trekking into the Steppenwolf stadium. I > presumed that I would find some of my missing party there but, alas, as > I skimmed the names in sadness, not even one name jumped out at me, even > telepathically. In the hopes that you, reader, will know them, I have > included the names of the event participants below. > > Katherine Bangs (AGNES) > > Rinska Carrasco-Prestinary (KALIOPE) > > Daeshawna Cook (VERA) > > Fred Geyer+ (MILES) > > Jessica London-Shields (TILLY) > > Allie Long (EVIL TINA/FARRAH) > > Morgan Maher (ORCUS) > > Jose Nateras (STEVE) > > Ellie Reed+ (EVIL GABBI/NARROTOR) > > Sara Sawicki+ (LILITH) > > Richard Traub (CHUCK) > > Upon my arrival into the space I realized that I wasn't the only guest > that Evanore had invited. Mages were there, as well as elves, and fellow > humans were present as well but I happened to be the only reviewer in > the throng of fellow spectators. > > I sat down just before Curtin and assessed what this was going to be > about. I was about to hear a mystical journey about adventure, loss, and > discovery and holding onto prized possessions and feelings. I > immediately conjured enough Meta to summon my special perception known > as audio description, which would allow me to hear, through a headset, > the actions that the characters did on stage, the costumes, and scene > changes. A pleasant surprise met my ears as Evan Hatfield, also known as > Evanore, started articulately describing the set of this event, a > kitchen inside of a small house. > > This event, she kills monsters soon had me swept up in its depth. > Agnes's life is turned upside down when she stumbles upon her late > sister?s Dungeons & Dragons notebook. As she embarks on an action-packed > quest to save her sister's soul, Agnes comes face to face with homicidal > fairies, raunchy ogres, fairies, orcs, demons, spells. And blood thirsty > cheerleaders, and discovers a side of herself she never knew existed. > Qui Nguyen's touching comedy combines real life, fantasy and 90's pop > culture in the search for the badass in us all. > > Not only does this flourishing comedy spin with speedy quips, it also > manages to touch on deeper subjects in the world today. Agnes not only > learns what her sister?s fears are about being gay in a cold cruel world > but Agnes learns what it took for her sister to battle her daemons, even > if that meant battling them in a different world. This smooth blend of > comedy between characters and understanding was just the right touch > that hypnotized me to the core. I even put away my red pen as I laughed > along with my fellow spectators at a pop culture reference or a funny > scene, such as the one where Agnes challenges demonic cheerleaders to a > dance off and then kills them while their back is turned. > > My special summon of audio description was very helpful, describing the > scene in a tone that didn't conflict with the presentation. Evan clearly > described the set, actions, facial expressions, and the like, not using > overly complicated words or interpreting the story. There was, however, > one downfall. The environment prevented my aid from working as > effectively as it could have been. The music, which had a higher number > of HP than I did, rendered the audio description impossible to hear at > times, wounding my eardrums as I attempted to still focus on this > brilliant blend of dialogue that did two things in one, invoked a > sympathetic look from me whenever a deeper connection between Agnes and > her sister and made me titter tantalizingly at some of the pop culture > cracks. I was transfixed, gleefully enjoying the entertainment despite > the bump with audio description. What really makes this even so powerful > is it pinches your attention in a way that just grips you and then keeps > stunning you with magic tricks of affectionate scenes that show > understanding to the fullest, alongside the action packed scenes that > are pumped up a degree by the chosen soundtracks. > > Even though the sound tracked rendered audio description useless in some > areas because I had to strain my straining to hear what Evan was saying > I?d go to see this toss of fun, love, and light again. It was that well > put together. Blending a mix of tight morals with the occasional swing > of slashing comedy that dices the funny bone this enchanted event had me > praising the creator not long after the curtains rose. Despite the fact > the music interferes with the audio description it doesn't dwindle the > experience down to unenjoyably painful > > As a well-known traveler in the land of Chicago, I've been asked to > oversee many important battles. Clashes between fairies, spell casting > duels, and bar quarrels over gold. In my many explorations I've never > treated myself to such a delight; I encourage anyone who finds this > quest log to check out this event at the mystical Steppenwolf theater > company. You'llnot only have a chance to refill your HP while embarking > on a quest of laughter, adventure, and love, but I can guarantee that > you'll level up in ways that you could have never dreamed of. I sure did. > > *END OF QUEST LOG* > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:54:05 -0500 > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Message-ID: <002601ce3635$ec612880$c5237980$@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > HiKatie, > , > Thanks so much for your response! I felt so much more accepted here > having > heard all this from you, and it means a lot! > I'm hoping that if more and more people develop a similar attitude the > blindness community can come together a little more by fighting for common > goals of the group and appreciating each member's contributions even > ifpersonal views on things like independence vary. > I also wanted to say you're a good writer, and I'd love to connect with > you > personally more on music therapy as I studied that some in college. > Thanks. > Sam > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:31 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Hi all, > > Robert brings up a great point. > > Personally, I do align pretty closely with the NFB philosophy. I do my own > laundry, clean and maintain my living spaces, and am learning more and more > recipes so I can independently cook. I find enjoyment in doing these > things > both because things like cooking are fun and there is a sense of pride in > keeping things clean for me, but also because I can do them myself and > don't > have to rely upon or wait for others to help me do them. However, that was > just how I was raised along with my sighted siblings. I wasn't taught that > things like doing your own laundry were signs of super-independence, just a > part of life that most people have to do on a weekly basis or so. Same for > cooking or at least finding a way to independently feed yourself like if it > involves independent travel to somewhere to order it. They're just things > most people in general do and that's how I was taught. > > However, I recognize that other people may have different needs separate > from the visual. I also see independence in the way that Robert does; it's > not defined by how much you can do on your own for every single person. It > might be more that way than not for me, but just because that's how I was > taught it doesn't make others who don't fall into that belief system or > less > independent than I am because they're independent in the sense that they're > choosing what they want to do and how they want to live their lives. > Robert > is also right that the NFB philosophy is not set on measuring each person's > independence quotient or something in terms of a number or percent, but we > are about changing conceptions of the blind and making life better for > blind > people, and in order to do this there is strength in numbers. So, is it > right to ostricize or exclude people from that effort just because they > might not do as much for themselves as others? Is what we do or don't do > for ourselves individually more important than the common goal we are > trying > to achieve? I know that even if I had a friend who barely did anything for > themself, but supported other blind people in terms of independence in the > work place, or accessibility in college classrooms, I would accept that > help > gladly. And, to me a person like that who is willing to fight or support > independence related to things they themselves may not ever want or need to > do on their own is just as supportive and important to the causes we fight > for. Not to mention that supporting things others might want to do, even > if it doesn't apply to them, speaks volumes about their character. > > On 4/10/13, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >> I love youre response. Keep up the hard work. That is what we all >> need, perseverance. Let's connect, I am working with a group of >> people to start a group. One that is a cross of both NFB, ACB, and >> some own Independant-thinking behind what and how we should become >> more united within the blindness community, not divided. Have a good >> day. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, "Robert William Kingett" >> >> wrote: >> >>> I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the >>> blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised >>> money to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even >>> supporting my fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe >>> that Friedman place is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree >>> with is the notion that people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, >>> have tried to make others do what they deem as independent. I have to >>> ask > this very simple question. >>> What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, >>> individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from >>> dependence on or control by another person, organization, or state. >>> I'm both a member of the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be >>> president of the LGBT chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a >>> place that fosters stereotypes and makes people think blind people >>> can't take care of themselves, apparently. Independence, as stated >>> above, > is very different for people. >>> Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be >>> celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the >>> NFB is the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is >>> my understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission >>> of the National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread >>> emotional acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real >>> problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the >>> misconceptions and lack of information which exist. We do this by >>> bringing blind people together to share successes, to support each >>> other in times of failure, and to create imaginative solutions. >>> Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, and people who >>> have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful >>> organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits >>> all policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, >>> independence should be celebrated. We're paying our bills and we're >>> paying for our food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the >>> world we choose, with care, the clothes we wear even if we have help >>> with washing them. No one dictates my path and I have achieved my >>> level of independence that I'm very satisfied with. Ii have my own > apartment and I'm a very strong advocate for both the LGBT community and > the > blindness community as well. >>> When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own >>> bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and >>> it makes me happy. Why? Because that's a blind person that has broken >>> down the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their >>> lives, and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. >>> They're an independent person, living how they want to live. It sure >>> does > feel good. >>> As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're >>> changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent >>> people. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail. >>> com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:55:47 -0500 > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Message-ID: <002701ce3636$29788060$7c698120$@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi William, > I so apriciate your thoughts on all this, and I'd love to join/help in any > way I can with the forming of your group. > Thanks. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > I love youre response. Keep up the hard work. That is what we all need, > perseverance. Let's connect, I am working with a group of people to start a > group. One that is a cross of both NFB, ACB, and some own > Independant-thinking behind what and how we should become more united within > the blindness community, not divided. Have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, "Robert William Kingett" > wrote: > >> I too am a member of Friedman place and a competent member of the >> blindness community, even if I have someone cook for me. I've raised money >> to donate to the NFB and ACB to help their cause, even supporting my >> fellow peers with advocacy related matters. I believe that Friedman place >> is just the right fit for me. What I don't agree with is the notion that >> people, and yes, I've looked at the archives, have tried to make others do >> what they deem as independent. I have to ask this very simple question. >> What is independence anyway? I believe independence is freedom, >> individuality, liberation. I believe that it is freedom from dependence on >> or control by another person, organization, or state. I'm both a member of >> the NFB and ACB, and I have been nominated to be president of the LGBT >> chapter in the ACB, even though I live in a place that fosters stereotypes >> and makes people think blind people can't take care of themselves, >> apparently. Independence, as stated above, is very different for people. >> Someone who's independent is free, and that, I believe, should be >> celebrated and applauded. Since a lot of people have said that the NFB is >> the optimal way to live I don't understand something. This is my >> understanding of the NFB, and correct me if I'm wrong. The mission of the >> National Federation of the Blind is to achieve widespread emotional >> acceptance and intellectual understanding that the real problem of >> blindness is not the loss of eyesight but the misconceptions and lack of >> information which exist. We do this by bringing blind people together to >> share successes, to support each other in times of failure, and to create >> imaginative solutions. Acceptance is a key part of showing sighted people, >> and people who have stereotypical perceptions that the NFB are a powerful >> organization and not just an organization to adopt a one size fits all >> policy. Instead, as I have said before and state again, independence >> should be celebrated. We?re paying our bills and we?re paying for our >> food. When we rise in the morning to brighten up the world we choose, with >> care, the clothes we wear even if we have help with washing them. No one >> dictates my path and I have achieved my level of independence that I'm >> very satisfied with. Ii have my own apartment and I'm a very strong >> advocate for both the LGBT community and the blindness community as well. >> When I hear that someone is living on their own and paying their own >> bills, even if they have someone cook for them. There independent and it >> makes me happy. Why? Because that?s a blind person that has broken down >> the stereotype of living at home with their parents all of their lives, >> and I celebrate that with congratulatory words all the way. They're an >> independent person, living how they want to live. It sure does feel good. >> As I have said, that's something to be celebrated because, they're >> changing what it means to be blind, those beautifully independent people. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:19:35 -0500 > From: Sophie Trist > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: <5165f3b6.2774ec0a.7b1c.175d at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > > Suzanne, I'm sorry about your VR frustration, I'm sorry to be a > pessimist here, but I think you're out of luck on this one. I > just started working with my VR counselor, but from what I know > of them, they'll find the easiest, most inexpensive solution to > any problem. "You need new contact lenses. Okay, we'll get you > the cheap ones from Arizona." As my own VR counselor said, "We > buy our clients what they need, which isn't always what they'd > most prefer." And Sam, I have to disagree with you. Though VR can > be annoying (at least from what I've heard), they do provide > great services for lots of people. And also... I can't resist > pointing out an error in your braillenote rant. With the apex, > you can change the battery yourself. > > Best, > Sophie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:44:39 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > > Hi Suzanne, > I don't have any answers for you on this, other than to pursue > the appeal, > but I wanted to write and say I'm sorry this happened. > To me, your request makes perfect sense. But sometimes voc rehab > can be so > frustrating, it just doesn't make sense! I just wanted to say I > know where > you're coming from in requesting something and having it denied. > I'd like a > braille lite, for example, because I had one before and then my > mom fried > it. I like them better than the braillenote because you don't > need to send > out every two years to get the battery replaced. I don't need the > fancy > stuff on the braillenote with e-mail and everything. I just need > the > wordprocessing part, and to make sure it has a compact flash > slot so I > can download books on it. > Anyway, my caseworker in IL said that there was no way I could > get any > kind of technology like that unless I was going to work or > school. And it > sounded like I would to have been going to work or school for > awhile before > they'd get it. But the crazier thing she said that was in order > to get a > braillenote or anything similar I'd have to take a test in > reading and > writing braille! I mean talk about a waste of time! > I found someone who was selling their braille lite for a price I > or my > family could save up for, so I'll probably end up doing that. > Sometimes > honestly they're more trouble than they're worth. But I know > how hard it > can be when you really do need their help and they're just making > things a > million times worse. > I really hope you get the Indiana appointment soon! Maybe go to > your > caseworker's supervisor and make your case to them? That > sometimes works. > I've found sometimes the supervisors are more understanding than > the people > we actually work with. , > I hope this helps. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Suzanne Germano > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > > I requested that voc rehab pay for me to have and comprehensive > examination > and contacts lenses from Eye Associates in Indiana. The > specialize in > Achromatopsia and spend 4 hours working to find the right color > contacts to > match each person's needs. > > I have used red lenses for years but now that I am back in school > and > reading a lot and the classrooms are extremely bright. I have > found the need > to find a better color. > > They denied it because they use 3 vendors in Arizona (where I > live) for low > vision services. None of these 3 do the extensive exam. In > Indiana I try on > several color actual contacts then see how they work for reading > how they > work with my sunglasses for out side. My prescription is in > glasses because > it makes my near vision (which I use mostly at school) very > blurry) But I > need the color filter due to extreme photophobia. > > I only asked for the cost of the exam (above medicare) and the > actual > contacts. I did nto ask them to cover any transportation costs. > > They claim they cannot use out of state services if it is > available in > Arizona. I explained that yes they have low vision exams but none > can do > what the one in Indiana can do. One even tried to tell me to have > my > prescription in my clear contacts then have multiple colored > glasses even > after I explained I cannot do the script in the contacts or I > cannot read, > use my computer, write without a headache from it being blurry. > > I filed an appeal but my appointment is May 14th. I am going when > I will > already be in the midwest for my daughter's college graduation. > > Any pointers? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40 > verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:06:30 -0600 > From: "melissa Green" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Message-ID: <09F870C71C804E7CAD8664724F2A6406 at HP30910210001> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Sam, > sorry that some people made you feel unwelcomed or like you aren't > independent enough. > You are so right, independence is what you define it to be, noone else's > definition. > I would add that freedom of choice is part of being independent. > Sincerely, > Melissa and Pj > Find me at: > Twitter melissa5674 > facebook Melissa R Green > Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:07 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place,a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > Hi Mauricio, > >From reading about some of the views of people in the NFB, it does sound > like this happens at times. Like people feel they need to do absolutely > everything completely on their own and not ask for help at all. > As Robert pointed out last night, and I have been trying to say, > independence is different for different people. My version of independence > is just as valid, for me, as anyone else's. I'm not telling any of you who > are happy living alone and have a different perspective than I do to come > move here. So I wish people wouldn't keep continuing to say on the one hand > that they're happy I'm here, but on the other hand that I should really go > to a center that I've said several times I'm not interested in, and that > my > life would be so much better if I lived on my own. You don't know the ins > and outs of my circumstances, and I don't feel like I need to tell you. But > to keep up trying to get me to do things your way, even if it's in a > subtle > way, is just very overwhelming for me. > When I wrote this list I did so with the good intention of just giving > information about a place that has helped me and others so much. I know > how > hard the transition to being a young adult can be and all the factors that > take considering. I just didn't want anyone to have to search as long and > hard as I did to find Friedman, if they were looking for a place like this. > I didn't think I'd get so much controversy in return, or be made to feel > like my life will only be "at it's potential," if I live completely on my > own as so many of you are. I appreciate this works for you, but don't > appreciate being subtly pressured into adopting this lifestyle for myself. > I think this conversation has run its course, and some of us are gonna > have to agree to disagree on some things. Like I said, in putting this > information out there I never thought this would happen. > I will say that if anyone is interested in learning more about Friedman > for > either themselves or a friend or family member you're welcome to write me > off list. > Thanks so much. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mauricio > Almeida > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:42 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of > super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which > contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. > I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen > way > too many of this kind abroad. > On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Hi Sam! >> First of all, welcome to the list! >> I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the > notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, > cook > for themselves, etc. >> I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you the > fact, that there is a better life! >> Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care of > yourself, and get a job! >> We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with other > disabilities. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and > talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This could >> be > someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have > or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would would > do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in really > bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable > about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >> safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> first time in my life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very > little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> a.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida% >> 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:11:41 -0500 > From: Robert William Kingett > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: <5165FFBD.3080206 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what they > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even if > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to like > newly blind people because they haven?t yet formed educated opinions > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take > anything without question and don?t need anything anymore complex. Also, > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they like > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or > every social worker. I?d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to provide, > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart > from that, I?d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what > you need and that won?t get you heard at all. present your case, first, > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain English, > no metaphors, no if?s, ands, or buts, tell her that you?re going to go > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:18:44 -0500 > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > Message-ID: <000001ce364a$210468e0$630d3aa0$@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Hi Melisa and PJ, > That's ok. Thanks for your thoughts though, it means a lot. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > Sam, > sorry that some people made you feel unwelcomed or like you aren't > independent enough. > You are so right, independence is what you define it to be, noone else's > definition. > I would add that freedom of choice is part of being independent. > Sincerely, > Melissa and Pj > Find me at: > Twitter melissa5674 > facebook Melissa R Green > Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:07 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place,a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > > Hi Mauricio, > >From reading about some of the views of people in the NFB, it does sound > like this happens at times. Like people feel they need to do absolutely > everything completely on their own and not ask for help at all. > As Robert pointed out last night, and I have been trying to say, > independence is different for different people. My version of independence > is just as valid, for me, as anyone else's. I'm not telling any of you who > are happy living alone and have a different perspective than I do to come > move here. So I wish people wouldn't keep continuing to say on the one hand > that they're happy I'm here, but on the other hand that I should really go > to a center that I've said several times I'm not interested in, and that > my > life would be so much better if I lived on my own. You don't know the ins > and outs of my circumstances, and I don't feel like I need to tell you. But > to keep up trying to get me to do things your way, even if it's in a > subtle > way, is just very overwhelming for me. > When I wrote this list I did so with the good intention of just giving > information about a place that has helped me and others so much. I know > how > hard the transition to being a young adult can be and all the factors that > take considering. I just didn't want anyone to have to search as long and > hard as I did to find Friedman, if they were looking for a place like this. > I didn't think I'd get so much controversy in return, or be made to feel > like my life will only be "at it's potential," if I live completely on my > own as so many of you are. I appreciate this works for you, but don't > appreciate being subtly pressured into adopting this lifestyle for myself. > I think this conversation has run its course, and some of us are gonna > have > to agree to disagree on some things. Like I said, in putting this > information out there I never thought this would happen. > I will say that if anyone is interested in learning more about Friedman > for > either themselves or a friend or family member you're welcome to write me > off list. > Thanks so much. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mauricio > Almeida > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:42 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman > Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago > > what happens is that some blind people tend on having to have a sense of > super independence in order to accept themselves, and so any solution which > contradicts this sense of over acceptance is denied. > I'm glad that it isn't the case within the federation, because i've seen > way > too many of this kind abroad. > On Apr 9, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Hi Sam! >> First of all, welcome to the list! >> I'm against these supportive living facilities, because it gives the > notion that blind people can't get employment, take care of themselves, > cook > for themselves, etc. >> I'm not hear to be offensive to you, but I'd like to share with you >> the > fact, that there is a better life! >> Have you ever heard of the Louisiana Center for the Blind? >> They'll teach you the independence skills, so that you can take care >> of > yourself, and get a job! >> We aren't some charity ccase for the state! >> I'm praying that you can get in this training center. >> The only good a supportive living facility is only for those with >> other > disabilities. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson >> [samnelson1 at verizon.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:43 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Wanted to share my experience living at Friedman >> Place, a supportive living community for blind adults in Chicago >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> First I apologize if some of you have read about this already from me, as >> I've posted it to the Massachusetts and IL student's mailing lists. I >> just really want to let everyone I can know about the wonderful place >> I call home, in case othersare in a similar situation to me and could >> see it as an option for either short or long-term living. >> >> I'm24 years old and totally blind. I'm originally from MA, and moved >> this past June to Friedman Place, a residential community for blind >> adults ages 22-elderly in Chicago. >> >> Friedman Place is one of two supportive living communities in the >> country, the other being Mary Bryant in Springfield. >> >> Since moving to Friedman my life has dramatically changed in a >> positive way. Here everyone has their own apartment, yet there is >> staff available 24/7if needed. Laundry and housekeeping services are >> optional. There are microwaves in our apartments, but beyond that we >> can't cook for ourselves as we eat in the dining room. >> >> Certified Nursing assistants help with daily things such as medication >> reminders, doing our nails, going for walks, or just hanging out and > talking >> with us. There are a variety of activities provided including: bingo, >> other card games, a movement class, line dancing, a support group, e >> exercise classes, and others. I feel as more younger people move to >> the facility, the types of activitys will reflect that. >> >> The nursing services are available daily, though not 24 hours. This is >> not a nursing home, so people with severe medical issues probably >> wouldn't be a good fit. I think the best fit for Friedman is someone >> who feels they want or need to live in a community environment, with a >> caring group of peers, and security and support from staff. This >> could be > someone who's >> transitioning from a school for the blind or really any school and > trying >> to figure out what they want to do after. It could be someone who just >> wants to get out of their parent's house, for whatever reason doesn't >> have > or want >> to live with relatives other friends, or want a roommate. It could be >> someone who has mild emotional/ cognitive challenges, and so would >> would > do >> well in an environment where there was independence but also a feeling > of >> support, and where they couldn't isolate as easily and fall through >> the cracks in a way they could if living alone or just with a >> roommate. Or, someone could want to move here purely for security >> reasons, as many low-income disability housing apartments are in >> really > bad neighborhoods. >> >> Staff are very client centered, in that residents plan how they want >> their lives to go. It's a great place to come and have a solid >> homebase to grow from. There are many oppurtunities in the city for >> volunteer or payed work, education, and socialization. Each resident >> is assigned a care advocate, who they meet with regularly to discuss >> issues going on either at Friedman and also talking about what they'd >> like to do out in the community. I feel the social worker in >> particular, is a very caring, friendly person who's very knowledgable > about resources in the community. >> >> >> >> I also want to be clear that this is not a foster care, group home, or >> nursing home situation. As long as residents sign in and out, for >> safety reasons of course, they can come and go as they please. They >> can have guests over til midnight without the guest having to get a >> background check. If they want guests to spend the night, all the >> person needs to do is fill out a quick background check form for >> safety. >> >> I feel that with the mix of older and younger residents, it really is >> like a family. I'm a sensitive person who in the past has isolated a >> lot. Here I feel I have a purpose and have solid friendships for the >> first time in my life. >> >> There are only two other people in their 20s currently at Friedman, >> I'm really hoping we can get more. The cost of living here is >> covered by medicade, as well as a portion of one's social security check. >> >> There's no requirement on how long you need to stay. Some people stay >> for six months, and consider it a stepping stone to living >> completely on one's own. . Others have been here for years and >> consider it home. It's all up to the person. >> >> I just know that if I had known at 15 or 16 that there was a safe >> supportive place I could go when I was 22, I would have been way less >> stressed about the future. >> >> At the end of this message I'll post the links to my videos to learn >> more. >> >> Lastly, in addition to letting others know of my positive experience >> here at Friedman, my second mission is to advocate for similar >> facilities to be opened in other states. Doing the research I have >> and hearing from many people, it's obvious that the need is there, >> particularly for those from 18 to 22, of which there seems to be very > little services. I wish the age >> requirement were 18, but right now it isn't. (Don't give up if you're > in >> that age group and interested in Friedman! Just be patient, and maybe >> soon things will change for the better!) So * if any of you want to >> discuss this other project I'd really appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to getting to know more of you. >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> Video links: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4SWYVxqA4 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTBKEnPup8 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> a.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida% >> 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:26:40 -0500 > From: Robert William Kingett > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: <51660340.4060500 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what they > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even if > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to like > newly blind people because they haven?t yet formed educated opinions > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take > anything without question and don?t need anything anymore complex. Also, > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they like > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or > every social worker. I?d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to provide, > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart > from that, I?d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what > you need and that won?t get you heard at all. present your case, first, > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain English, > no metaphors, no if?s, ands, or buts, tell her that you?re going to go > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:17:10 -0600 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that > the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't > already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is > superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You > should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with > your appeal. His phone number is: > 520-733-5894 > or > krezguy at cox.net > He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona > and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a > prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, > you should pursue it. > As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the > basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in > your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all > about getting screen reading software? > Best of luck, > Arielle > > On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact >> lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a >> rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with >> tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in >> school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what they >> frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even if >> they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting >> JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but >> unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to like >> newly blind people because they haven?t yet formed educated opinions >> about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those >> kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take >> anything without question and don?t need anything anymore complex. Also, >> even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit >> more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they like >> the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it >> and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my >> personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because >> there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they >> understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and >> treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a >> permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is >> different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, >> myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or >> every social worker. I?d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention >> her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that >> provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing >> support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and >> experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her >> independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to >> achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, >> sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to provide, >> you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive >> technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision >> devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill >> training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the >> tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of >> rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources >> to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: >> This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to >> blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, >> tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve >> independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be >> able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that >> word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart >> from that, I?d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with >> fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these >> lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what >> you need and that won?t get you heard at all. present your case, first, >> to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain English, >> no metaphors, no if?s, ands, or buts, tell her that you?re going to go >> up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you >> to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the >> same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add >> anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have >> to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:28:37 -0700 > From: Suzanne Germano > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Yes I have also found this to be the case for the most part with voc rehab. > > I was in school several years ago and requested a copy machine so I could > do all my large printing because the teachers were not putting in thier > book orders in time for APH to large print the books. They denied it at > first but I stood my ground. I showed them that over time this was actually > less expensive and I would be more successful in my courses having large > print form day one and on demand. I got the copy machine and it really > worked well for my needs. > > In this case none of the Arizona eye doctors can do what the one's in > Indiana can. I am only asking for the cost of the exam and the contacts. > The contacts which they approved to buy will not be any cheaper if the A > doctor orders them. But what they will be is the wrong color and darkness > since none of the AZ doctors have adequate means to find the right color. > Some achoromats actually use one color in one eye and one in another. They > did not even offer to pay a portion based on what the AZ vendors would > charge them. > > The supervisor is the one who is the problem. The hard part is the > counselor being the middle man so she is not adequately explaining my needs > and why this would be the right choice. > > I filed an official appeal. Then I got a call from the ombudsman saying my > counselor told her I no longer wanted to proceed with the appeal. I said > that was not true. I do want the appeal. > > I submitted a 15 page document stating my cse including what each of the AZ > doctors said they would do. One picks the color based on a few "most > popular" colors yet most eye doctors have never seen an achromat or fitted > them with the right color filter. > > I already spent $1000 out of pocket for script glasses, script sunglasses > and trying to back off the darkness of my contacts by 30% I only needed > these for school or work. While I was unemployed I just used contacts with > script since I wasn't doing any close work. The 30% reduction wasn't > enough. I need to find a different color. The red makes it harder to read. > So it may turn out I need orange or magenta but I won't know that unless I > go to a place that can properly test for the right color. > > I can say they did go with my choice for transportable cctv (the magnilink) > and for hand held cctv. > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Robert William Kingett > wrote: > >> I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact >> lenses >> you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a rehabilitation >> agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with tools, or resources >> that you'll be able to do your work successfully in school or elsewhere, >> most agencies will only either a, go with what they frequently do, like >> for >> example getting clients jaws for windows even if they prefer window eyes. >> Why? Because that agency is used to getting JAWS and the like. Or, B, go >> with a cheap solution. Understandable, but unacceptable. Also, from my >> personal experience. Counselors seem to like newly blind people because >> they haven?t yet formed educated opinions about what's better, for them, >> in >> the adaptive technology market. Those kind of blind people are much >> easier >> to serve because they will take anything without question and don?t need >> anything anymore complex. Also, even though this is going on a tangent, >> they tend to lean just a bit more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What >> I >> mean by this is they like the clients with simple needs that can be >> resolved once and that's it and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, >> etc. >> these are just my personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a >> whole because there's some people who work in the field who are real >> gems, >> and they understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs >> and treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a >> permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is >> different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, >> myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or >> every social worker. I?d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention >> her >> entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that provides >> vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing support and >> services to promote the acquisition of skills and experiential learning >> that will support the consumer in meeting his/her independent living and >> vocational goals as well as the technology to achieve and acquire such >> learning, or accommodations, not technology, sorry. I didn't have my >> coffee >> yet. Remember, they are there to provide, you, as a client, specific >> barrier removal including assistive technology or computer training, as >> well as Braille, use of low-vision devises for job related functions, >> and/or other blindness related skill training as well as employment, >> etc., >> any kind of training or the tools/technology to acquire the training or >> job. Provision of rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to >> services >> and resources to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence >> is >> given: This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment >> to >> blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, >> tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve >> independent >> living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be able to do >> what >> you need to do and to function independently, use that word. >> Independently. >> That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart from that, I?d say tell >> their board staff. Provide a logical case with fact sheets and all this >> to >> present your case saying why you need these lenses. Make a clear case, >> not >> an emotion filled one. That isn't what you need and that won?t get you >> heard at all. present your case, first, to your counselor, and if she >> says >> no again, tell her, in plain English, no metaphors, no if?s, ands, or >> buts, >> tell her that you?re going to go up the chain of command because you were >> denied technology to allow you to function independently. Do this with >> her >> supervisor. Tell her the same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change >> anything. Don't add anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. >> Yes, if you have to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:33:52 -0700 > From: Suzanne Germano > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Thank you I will contact Bob. > > I submitted a 15 page document with my appeal. I explained how each of > their doctors would try to fit me with colored lenses. I contacted each of > them and included the actual emails from them. The eye doctor in Indiana > sent them a 4-5 page document on what they do which I included again in my > appeal. > > I will be submitted a request for ZoomText with speech for both the mac and > Windows next week. I am a Software Engineering major so on the computer all > the time. Before school mac zoom was enough but it does not follow the > insertion point just the mouse pointer. I will also be doing an internship > this summer and need to have the right technology. The more successful my > internships the better chance I have of finding employment upon graduation. > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Arielle Silverman < > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > >> VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that >> the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't >> already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is >> superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You >> should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with >> your appeal. His phone number is: >> 520-733-5894 >> or >> krezguy at cox.net >> He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >> and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a >> prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, >> you should pursue it. >> As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the >> basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in >> your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all >> about getting screen reading software? >> Best of luck, >> Arielle >> >> On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact >> > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a >> > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with >> > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully in >> > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what >> > they >> > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even >> > if >> > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting >> > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, but >> > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to >> > like >> > newly blind people because they haven?t yet formed educated opinions >> > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. Those >> > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take >> > anything without question and don?t need anything anymore complex. >> > Also, >> > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit >> > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they >> > like >> > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it >> > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my >> > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because >> > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they >> > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and >> > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a >> > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is >> > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, >> > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency or >> > every social worker. I?d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention >> > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that >> > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing >> > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and >> > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting his/her >> > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to >> > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, >> > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to >> > provide, >> > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive >> > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision >> > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related skill >> > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the >> > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of >> > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources >> > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: >> > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to >> > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of techniques, >> > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve >> > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be >> > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that >> > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart >> > from that, I?d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with >> > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need these >> > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what >> > you need and that won?t get you heard at all. present your case, first, >> > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain >> > English, >> > no metaphors, no if?s, ands, or buts, tell her that you?re going to go >> > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow you >> > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the >> > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add >> > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have >> > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:20:02 -0400 > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Hi, > > What also might be beneficial is if you can get someone from the > company in Indiana to substantiate your claims. I've run into issues > like what Sophie described where my Rehab councelor originally planned > to purchase something that was less expensive but not as practical for > me. While my email justifying my request for the specific thing I > needed was not paid particular attention, testimonials on the web > about the low quality of the product they were going to buy me really > helped seal my case. Granted, other factors played into it as well > like since a lot of schools buy these cheaper, less sturdy models the > ones I didn't want were out of stock and all that was left was what I > consider the good kind, but the reviews did play a role I think. It > may be worth a shot, especially if you can speak with someone who has > done an exam for you from there in the past. > > On 4/10/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> Thank you I will contact Bob. >> >> I submitted a 15 page document with my appeal. I explained how each of >> their doctors would try to fit me with colored lenses. I contacted each >> of >> them and included the actual emails from them. The eye doctor in Indiana >> sent them a 4-5 page document on what they do which I included again in >> my >> appeal. >> >> I will be submitted a request for ZoomText with speech for both the mac >> and >> Windows next week. I am a Software Engineering major so on the computer >> all >> the time. Before school mac zoom was enough but it does not follow the >> insertion point just the mouse pointer. I will also be doing an >> internship >> this summer and need to have the right technology. The more successful my >> internships the better chance I have of finding employment upon >> graduation. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> >>> VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that >>> the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't >>> already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is >>> superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You >>> should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with >>> your appeal. His phone number is: >>> 520-733-5894 >>> or >>> krezguy at cox.net >>> He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >>> and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a >>> prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, >>> you should pursue it. >>> As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the >>> basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in >>> your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all >>> about getting screen reading software? >>> Best of luck, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact >>> > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a >>> > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with >>> > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully >>> > in >>> > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what >>> > they >>> > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows even >>> > if >>> > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting >>> > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, >>> > but >>> > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to >>> > like >>> > newly blind people because they haven?t yet formed educated opinions >>> > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. >>> > Those >>> > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take >>> > anything without question and don?t need anything anymore complex. >>> > Also, >>> > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit >>> > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they >>> > like >>> > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's it >>> > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my >>> > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because >>> > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and they >>> > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and >>> > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a >>> > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is >>> > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, >>> > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency >>> > or >>> > every social worker. I?d quietly remind your counselor, not to mention >>> > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that >>> > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by providing >>> > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and >>> > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting >>> > his/her >>> > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to >>> > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not technology, >>> > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to >>> > provide, >>> > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive >>> > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of low-vision >>> > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related >>> > skill >>> > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the >>> > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of >>> > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and resources >>> > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: >>> > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to >>> > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of >>> > techniques, >>> > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve >>> > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to be >>> > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use that >>> > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. Apart >>> > from that, I?d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case with >>> > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need >>> > these >>> > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't what >>> > you need and that won?t get you heard at all. present your case, >>> > first, >>> > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain >>> > English, >>> > no metaphors, no if?s, ands, or buts, tell her that you?re going to go >>> > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow >>> > you >>> > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the >>> > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add >>> > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you have >>> > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:54:34 -0400 > From: Mika Pyyhkala > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > , nfbcs > Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Blind VoiceOver Users To Test SideCar > Ride Sharing App & Report Accessibility Experiences > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Download the app here: > http://t.co/Sn1cpcQLyf > File Accessibility Reports by Email to: > e-hail at nfbma.org > Twitter: @pyyhkala @NFBMA @EHaila11y > > Greetings, > > The NFB of Massachusetts and Mika Pyyhkala are investigating the > accessibility of the SideCar ride sharing app to blind VoiceOver users > with Apple iOS devices. > > Here are some questions and answers about this project: > > Q: What is SideCar Ride? > A: SideCar Ride is one of several emerging E-Hail apps that allow you > to request a ride or ground transportation via a mobile phone or > device. Other E-Hail apps you may have heard of include Uber, Hailo, > Lift, etc. These apps allow you to track the arrival of your vehicle > with your smartphone, check the availability of nearby vehicles, > complete payment electronically, and receive accessible digital email > receipts. E-Hail apps have many benefits to riders and drivers that > were previously not possible or available. > > Q: What citys is SideCar currently available in? > A: San Francisco, Seattle, Los Angeles, Austin, Philadelphia, Chicago, > Boston, Brooklyn, NY and Washington, D.C. > > Q: What are some of the more interesting features of the SideCar Ride > app and service? > A: SideCar advertises that users can see the number and location of as > well as the ETA of the nearest SideCar vehicle available to give rides > in your area based on your GPS position. Once you request a ride, you > can track the vehicle as it approaches your pickup point. Also, > SideCar Ride uses an innovative pricing model where you, the > passenger, specify a "donation," amount to pay the driver. You may > elect to pay nothing, to pay less than the suggested donation amount, > to pay the exact suggested donation amount, or to pay more than the > suggested donation amount. In other words, you as the rider, pick the > amount you elect to pay for any given ride. The app also allows and > requires you to rate your driver to close out and complete a ride > transaction. > > Q: How can I find out more details about the SideCar Ride app and service? > A: The SideCar Ride web site is located at > http://side.cr > The company is on Twitter @SideCar and also city specific Twitter > accounts are available such as @SideCarBOS @SideCarDC etc. You can > also email questions to > support at side.cr > Feel free to ask the company both general and accessibility related > questions. You may be able to find out more about SideCar by > searching on the internet or Youtube as well. > > Q: Are there any promotions or discounts that I can use to try SideCar > Ride? > A: An existing SideCar Ride user can refer you to the service, and > each party receives a $10 credit. There are also various promotion > codes that you may be able to find on Twitter or on the internet. If > you know someone who uses SideCar Ride, they may be able to help you > find discounts to try the service. > > Q: When I email e-hail at nfbma.org what kind of information should I include? > A: Please include your full name, the city and state you tried > SideCar, and your experience using the app with VoiceOver. You may, > for example, describe how the signup process worked with VoiceOver, or > how the process to request and complete a ride worked with VoiceOver. > If you get stuck in any part of the process, please report this. > Please also include a telephone number where we can contact you to get > further information. > > Q: What will happen with the information I submit about SideCar Ride > accessibility? > A: Mika Pyyhkala and the NFB of Massachusetts are researching the > accessibility of SideCar. We will work to address any accessibility > issues that are found in the app or service. We are looking for both > your experience in trying the service, and also for people who can > help with any accessibility issues found in various SideCar citys. We > will give you indstructions and more information after you file your > initial accessibility report, and as we evaluate the accessibility of > SideCar. > > Q: Is similar accessibility research being done regarding other E-Hail > apps like Lift, Uber, Hailo, etc.? > A: Yes, and if you have a story about one of these apps please feel > free to send it to e-hail at nfbma.org > Right now, it is most important that we have blind VoiceOver users > test and evaluate the accessibility of SideCar. In the coming weeks > and months, we may send out similar requests regarding other E-Hail > apps. > > Q: If I don't live in a current SideCar city, can I still participate? > A: Yes, you can still install and register for SideCar. You can use > the service when you travel to a supported city, and the company is > actively expanding the citys serviced. You can still provide > VoiceOver accessibility feedback on the signup process for SideCar, > and the overall interface of the app. > > Best, > Mika Pyyhkala, > Board Member > National Federation of the Blind > pyyhkala at gmail.com > Twitter: @pyyhkala > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:09:23 -0600 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a > huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to > blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is > available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite > long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan > talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted > guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with > her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, > not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for > both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and > still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a > minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. > > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we > should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think > most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the > freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a > little better about not judging others who make different choices than > what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's > reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we > disagree here. > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't > change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same > kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be > called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my > fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently > around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with > something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up > something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi > driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of > freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about > whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get > is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the > inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe > that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really > need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If > someone always has another person do their laundry because they never > tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for > them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth > the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never > know these things until we try them. > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind > people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community > like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make > a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I > think there are many other populations in this country who need a > place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't > fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there > are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, > cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your > spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot > date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and > especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, > gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, > either on our own or with assistance. > Best, > Arielle > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:12:37 -0700 > From: Suzanne Germano > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab request denied > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > The Indiana eye doctor sent a detailed 4-5 page letter directly to them. I > included it again in my appeal. > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> What also might be beneficial is if you can get someone from the >> company in Indiana to substantiate your claims. I've run into issues >> like what Sophie described where my Rehab councelor originally planned >> to purchase something that was less expensive but not as practical for >> me. While my email justifying my request for the specific thing I >> needed was not paid particular attention, testimonials on the web >> about the low quality of the product they were going to buy me really >> helped seal my case. Granted, other factors played into it as well >> like since a lot of schools buy these cheaper, less sturdy models the >> ones I didn't want were out of stock and all that was left was what I >> consider the good kind, but the reviews did play a role I think. It >> may be worth a shot, especially if you can speak with someone who has >> done an exam for you from there in the past. >> >> On 4/10/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> > Thank you I will contact Bob. >> > >> > I submitted a 15 page document with my appeal. I explained how each of >> > their doctors would try to fit me with colored lenses. I contacted each >> of >> > them and included the actual emails from them. The eye doctor in >> > Indiana >> > sent them a 4-5 page document on what they do which I included again in >> my >> > appeal. >> > >> > I will be submitted a request for ZoomText with speech for both the mac >> and >> > Windows next week. I am a Software Engineering major so on the computer >> all >> > the time. Before school mac zoom was enough but it does not follow the >> > insertion point just the mouse pointer. I will also be doing an >> internship >> > this summer and need to have the right technology. The more successful >> > my >> > internships the better chance I have of finding employment upon >> graduation. >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> > >> >> VR will pay for an out-of-state vendor if you can prove to them that >> >> the vendor is better than what you can get in-state. If you haven't >> >> already, you should write a letter describing why this vendor is >> >> superior, and send it to your counselor and to his supervisor. You >> >> should also contact Bob Kresmer in AZ to see if he can help you with >> >> your appeal. His phone number is: >> >> 520-733-5894 >> >> or >> >> krezguy at cox.net >> >> He is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >> >> and he knows who is at the top in Arizona VR. If you think getting a >> >> prescription from this place will make a difference in your education, >> >> you should pursue it. >> >> As I mentioned in a previous email, I also think that learning the >> >> basics of JAWS, or another screen reader, would benefit you a lot in >> >> your studies and your everyday life. Have you talked with VR at all >> >> about getting screen reading software? >> >> Best of luck, >> >> Arielle >> >> >> >> On 4/10/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >> > I'm sorry to say that there isn't much that you can do. For contact >> >> > lenses you'll have to pursue that avenue yourself. Even though a >> >> > rehabilitation agency for the blind is supposed to provide you with >> >> > tools, or resources that you'll be able to do your work successfully >> in >> >> > school or elsewhere, most agencies will only either a, go with what >> >> > they >> >> > frequently do, like for example getting clients jaws for windows >> >> > even >> >> > if >> >> > they prefer window eyes. Why? Because that agency is used to getting >> >> > JAWS and the like. Or, B, go with a cheap solution. Understandable, >> but >> >> > unacceptable. Also, from my personal experience. Counselors seem to >> >> > like >> >> > newly blind people because they haven?t yet formed educated opinions >> >> > about what's better, for them, in the adaptive technology market. >> Those >> >> > kind of blind people are much easier to serve because they will take >> >> > anything without question and don?t need anything anymore complex. >> >> > Also, >> >> > even though this is going on a tangent, they tend to lean just a bit >> >> > more appreciatively to simple outcomes. What I mean by this is they >> >> > like >> >> > the clients with simple needs that can be resolved once and that's >> >> > it >> >> > and don't need ongoing service, upgrades, etc. these are just my >> >> > personal opinions and don't reflect the agencies as a whole because >> >> > there's some people who work in the field who are real gems, and >> >> > they >> >> > understand the client, not just understand their immediate needs and >> >> > treat them with a pacifier until later when the client realizes a >> >> > permanent, yet very expensive solution, or the like. Every person is >> >> > different. As I have said, these are just some of the things that I, >> >> > myself, personally, have noticed and they don't reflect every agency >> or >> >> > every social worker. I?d quietly remind your counselor, not to >> >> > mention >> >> > her entire staff that this is a facility, a dedicated team, that >> >> > provides vocational rehabilitation. VR accomplishes this by >> >> > providing >> >> > support and services to promote the acquisition of skills and >> >> > experiential learning that will support the consumer in meeting >> his/her >> >> > independent living and vocational goals as well as the technology to >> >> > achieve and acquire such learning, or accommodations, not >> >> > technology, >> >> > sorry. I didn't have my coffee yet. Remember, they are there to >> >> > provide, >> >> > you, as a client, specific barrier removal including assistive >> >> > technology or computer training, as well as Braille, use of >> >> > low-vision >> >> > devises for job related functions, and/or other blindness related >> skill >> >> > training as well as employment, etc., any kind of training or the >> >> > tools/technology to acquire the training or job. Provision of >> >> > rehabilitation counseling, as well as access to services and >> >> > resources >> >> > to support adjustment to blindness to achieve independence is given: >> >> > This refers to the intellectual, emotional, and social adjustment to >> >> > blindness and visual impairment as well as the provision of >> techniques, >> >> > tools, and equipment which will enable the consumer to achieve >> >> > independent living and travel functioning. You need those lenses to >> >> > be >> >> > able to do what you need to do and to function independently, use >> >> > that >> >> > word. Independently. That word will make a lot of people listen. >> >> > Apart >> >> > from that, I?d say tell their board staff. Provide a logical case >> >> > with >> >> > fact sheets and all this to present your case saying why you need >> these >> >> > lenses. Make a clear case, not an emotion filled one. That isn't >> >> > what >> >> > you need and that won?t get you heard at all. present your case, >> first, >> >> > to your counselor, and if she says no again, tell her, in plain >> >> > English, >> >> > no metaphors, no if?s, ands, or buts, tell her that you?re going to >> >> > go >> >> > up the chain of command because you were denied technology to allow >> you >> >> > to function independently. Do this with her supervisor. Tell her the >> >> > same thing. Tell her word for word. Don't change anything. Don't add >> >> > anything or remove anything. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Yes, if you >> >> > have >> >> > to, contact the president. I hope that this helps you. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:19:32 -0400 > From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: <000c01ce35a2$9a9bd100$cfd37300$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I'll say this. When I travel with someone, I hold their elbow due to our > differences in walking speed, and the cues that I use. It's easier, and > less aggravating. We can tale a little easier. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:09 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > > Hi all, > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a huge > influence on the organization's philosophical approach to blindness, wrote > a > speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is available on the NFB > website. I won't post it here since it is quite long, but will just > summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan talked about times when > he, > as a blind man, would walk with sighted guides, such as holding the arm of > his secretary while walking with her and in conversation. He said that he > did this from time to time, not because he needed the help, but because it > was more convenient for both of them. He stated that one can accept > assistance from others and still remain independent. Specifically, he > defined independence as: > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a minimum > of inconvenience to yourself and others. > > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we should > bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think most if not > all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the freedom to choose when, > and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a little better about not > judging others who make different choices than what we would make, and some > judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's reputation in this regard. But I > really think we agree more than we disagree here. > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't change > our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same kinds of > things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be called super-blind > because I do typical things like living with my fiancee and sharing cooking > duties with him, or walking independently around campus. And I think that > whenever we do accept help with something, there is always a trade-off > where > we have to give up something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like > paying > a taxi driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of freedom, > like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about whether or not > we > can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get is worth the > sacrifice, > but other times it's not, because the inconvenience on ourselves or others > is too great. Finally, I believe that in order to make knowledgeable > decisions about what we really need help doing, and what we don't, we > should > get decent training. If someone always has another person do their laundry > because they never tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy > it > might be for them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's > not worth the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we > never > know these things until we try them. > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind people, > who > would benefit greatly from a supported living community like Friedman > Place. > Offering these communities could really help make a dent in national crises > like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I think there are many other > populations in this country who need a place like Friedman far more than > blind people do. And while I don't fault those who choose to go to > Friedman, > I would submit that there are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get > low-cost housing, cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over > most of your spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the > hot date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and especially > getting training in daily living skills and job skills, gives us the > flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, either on our own or > with assistance. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:24:41 -0500 > From: Robert William Kingett > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: <51663B09.5060500 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > That was awesome! Thank you for sharing that, and you?re right about > everything. We?re well aware of the sacrifices but we choose what we > choose, with reason. By the way, does anyone know where to get audio > described movies other than blind mice? I'm surprised no one is selling > them as digital downloads I also want to know were can I find a detailed > podcast in the new victor reader stream? Thank you everyone > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:30:19 -0400 > From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: <000e01ce35a4$1bf9afa0$53ed0ee0$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Is blind mice not good? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William > Kingett > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:25 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > > That was awesome! Thank you for sharing that, and you're right about > everything. We're well aware of the sacrifices but we choose what we > choose, with reason. By the way, does anyone know where to get audio > described movies other than blind mice? I'm surprised no one is selling > them as digital downloads I also want to know were can I find a detailed > podcast in the new victor reader stream? Thank you everyone > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:39:13 -0500 > From: Robert William Kingett > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: <51663E71.70808 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I just grumble because I don't have a sendspace max account and can't > download things using the sendspace wizard so I have to do it using the > website, and then some. I've gotten some malware downloading using links > from their website but when I downloaded them using the wizard > everything was fine and dandy. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:47:30 -0400 > From: Desiree Oudinot > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get > some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite > offensive about the wording of that particular speech. > When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several > letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he > spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was > free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him > independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for > themselves while they were in training. he basically said that > students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first > is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student > doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is > aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly > refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, > hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair > summation? I believe it is. > If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that > every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is > hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, > for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust > to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about > it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't > exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state > of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people > are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for > sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For > a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that > everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack > of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any > favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students > doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all > humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very > well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and > situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by > emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do > something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point > where their egoes inflate exponentially. > I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me > a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought > I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, > what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for > training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such > a juvenile fashion? > > On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >> >> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >> disagree here. >> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >> know these things until we try them. >> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >> either on our own or with assistance. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:49:53 -0400 > From: Desiree Oudinot > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Actually, they're pro accounts now. That's a minor detail, really, but > the pro accounts are more expensive, even if they do offer unlimited > downloads as opposed to the former 8gb you could have with a max > account daily. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> I just grumble because I don't have a sendspace max account and can't >> download things using the sendspace wizard so I have to do it using the >> website, and then some. I've gotten some malware downloading using links >> from their website but when I downloaded them using the wizard >> everything was fine and dandy. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:52:24 -0400 > From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: <001001ce35a7$31f7b150$95e713f0$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I haven't listened to the speech, but apparently, > I probably should. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree > Oudinot > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:47 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > > Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get > some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite > offensive about the wording of that particular speech. > When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several > letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he > spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was > free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him > independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for > themselves while they were in training. he basically said that > students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first > is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student > doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is > aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly > refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, > hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair > summation? I believe it is. > If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that > every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is > hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, > for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust > to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about > it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't > exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state > of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people > are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for > sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For > a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that > everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack > of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any > favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students > doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all > humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very > well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and > situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by > emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do > something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point > where their egoes inflate exponentially. > I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me > a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought > I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, > what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for > training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such > a juvenile fashion? > > On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >> >> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >> disagree here. >> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >> know these things until we try them. >> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >> either on our own or with assistance. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co > m >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:05:02 -0400 > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Desiree, > > I think what he was saying was more from a psychological perspective. > Arielle and anyone else studying psych more than I am can correct me > if I'm wrong, but I took his phases as more of a general statement. > You are right that it is different for everyone, but I also think the > timid, over-independent, and balanced phases manifest in different > ways for different people, and some might not have them in this order > or may not experience all of them. I know a lot of people, > congenitally blind or newly blind, get nervous about crossing streets > or question their judgement when they're first learning things. I'm > not quite sure if this is blindness-specific though, as I and other > sighted and blind people I know, most people in general I think, can > be timid the first time they do things too like starting college, > moving to a new housing situation, or for our sighted friends learning > things like how to drive a several ton metal machine. I also don't > necessarily think the aggressive phase is really blindness-specific > either, as teenagers are notorious for doing the same thing blind or > sighted. I do, however, believe in the balanced phase. Although I > remember being a little timid while I was still learning skills, I > attribute it to me learning them more than my blindness playing the > main role. I also went through a cocky phase a few years later when I > totally refused sighted guide and help from others while I was going > somewhere. But now I feel like I have the right amount of caution and > confidence in my skills to be as independent as I want to be, make > appropriate choices about when to use and not use sighted guide, etc. > I don't necessarily think Kenneth Jernigan was slamming the students > or putting himself on a pedistal in comparison to their incompetence, > I took it more as just an analysis of psychological states. It sounds > a little more pinpointed towards blindness than I really think it is, > but that was what I got out of it, more of an analysis of frames of > mind about blindness that effect independence than a slam against the > students. > > On 4/11/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get >> some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite >> offensive about the wording of that particular speech. >> When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several >> letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he >> spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was >> free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him >> independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for >> themselves while they were in training. he basically said that >> students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first >> is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student >> doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is >> aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly >> refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, >> hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair >> summation? I believe it is. >> If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that >> every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is >> hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, >> for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust >> to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about >> it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't >> exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state >> of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people >> are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for >> sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For >> a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that >> everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack >> of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any >> favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students >> doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all >> humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very >> well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and >> situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by >> emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do >> something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point >> where their egoes inflate exponentially. >> I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me >> a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought >> I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, >> what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for >> training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such >> a juvenile fashion? >> >> On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >>> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >>> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >>> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >>> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >>> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >>> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >>> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >>> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >>> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >>> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >>> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >>> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >>> >>> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >>> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >>> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >>> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >>> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >>> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >>> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >>> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >>> disagree here. >>> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >>> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >>> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >>> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >>> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >>> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >>> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >>> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >>> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >>> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >>> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >>> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >>> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >>> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >>> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >>> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >>> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >>> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >>> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >>> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >>> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >>> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >>> know these things until we try them. >>> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >>> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >>> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >>> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >>> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >>> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >>> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >>> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >>> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >>> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >>> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >>> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >>> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >>> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >>> either on our own or with assistance. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 29 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:07:15 -0500 > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > Message-ID: <000001ce3672$6fbc0dd0$4f342970$@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Hi Arielle, > Thanks for sharing all this! It's a very balanced perspective. My > therapist taught me this word today, dialectic. It means two things that > at > first seem opposite can exist at the same time. I think this illustrates > that. > And I agree with Robert. Considering the trade-offs involved is part of > making the decision to come here at least it was for me. One sacrifice for > me for example, is that coming here I had to leave my cat behind. I > honestly > don't know if I'll ever see him again. If I had stayed in MA one option I > could have chosen was a shared living program where I was matched with a > companion, sort of a one on one Friedman type thing. But the matching > process might have taken a year or more and I absolutely could not have > waited that long at my parents and the sacrifice for different friends to > take me would have been too much on them and I also wouldn't want to put > that on them. > In shared living I would have been allowed to have pets. Here > unfortunately > we aren't. However, sometimes it takes being creative. I have found a > couple > of visiting pet therapy programs that take cats to places like Friedman and > am researching them in order to present a case to activities about having > them come here maybe a couple times a month or something. Especially if > it's > free they'll probably do it. I could also go to an animal shelter to > volunteer though I worry about being possibly scratched by random cats that > might have diseases or something. I would think the pet therapy cats would > be healthy but you never know in a shelter. > Though they're rare I could one day get a service cat if I wanted to and > make the case that it helps with mental health issues I have. > I will say the spending money is a big thing for some people. But at least > for my personal situation even having less spending money is worth it. With > where I live providing food/ cleaning, and what we pay them covering > everything else, you know electric/ rent/ all that, there isn't really > much > I feel I need to buy. You learn to save, and sometimes unexpected and > amazing things happened. > Doing therapy type things is very important for me to have some kind of > emotional balance and outlits. In college I was used to being able to pay a > reasonable price for this and was fine with it. > I happened to write to a dance therapist who's website I really resonated > with. I was just writing admiring her website. I said in passing that I'd > probably work with her if I had the money. Because she's amazing she > offered > me at first, three sessions for free. Because we connected so well, and > because she's so goodhearted she's extended this to seeing me once a > month. > In adition I found a place I can go to once a week with an intern for $10/ > session which works for me. She's very good. So I feel things have a way of > working out in unexpected ways. > I do do my own laundry myself by the way, that I was taught to do and it > stuck. Other things I was sort of taught to do and they just didn't take > hold, like cooking. It was just too anxiety producing I think for both me > and my family equally, you know the stove and the oven and all that. So I'm > good with the sacrifice of not being able to choose exactly what I want to > eat every day. At college my roomates and I really didn't clean the room > much. I really like having housekeeping services because at least I know > once a week everything will be nice and clean. And the housekeeper has this > cute accent and says "I love you honey," every time she sees me, and that > brightens my day! > I should say, if I haven't already, that within the community in different > ways the CNAS do encourage independence and doing things for ourselves. > This > one CAN always bugs me about picking up my room. I know of a resident who > when he first got here had the CNAS take him everywhere around the > building. > Eventually he's gotten to the point where he can go some places himself and > that's a big step for him. I know it probably doesn't seem like as much > training as the training centers or other places, but I wanted to point it > is emphasized in some way. > I totally agree with you about offering more supportive living > communities, > for all types of populations being a good thing. I personally wouldn't say > that other populations need it more than the blind, but I can see from your > perspective how you would think of it like that. I do think more places > need > to be out there, particularly for people with mental health concerns. At > the moment in Chicago, many of these people are in psychiatric nursing > homes, that for the most part quite honestly sound like pretty terrible > places. And yet nothing gets done about this. One of my future projects is > discussing this with NAMI or some other related organization. So hopefully > one day we'll get there! > Again thanks for your thoughts. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:09 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > > Hi all, > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a huge > influence on the organization's philosophical approach to blindness, wrote > a > speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is available on the NFB > website. I won't post it here since it is quite long, but will just > summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan talked about times when > he, > as a blind man, would walk with sighted guides, such as holding the arm of > his secretary while walking with her and in conversation. He said that he > did this from time to time, not because he needed the help, but because it > was more convenient for both of them. He stated that one can accept > assistance from others and still remain independent. Specifically, he > defined independence as: > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a minimum > of inconvenience to yourself and others. > > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we should > bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think most if not > all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the freedom to choose when, > and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a little better about not > judging others who make different choices than what we would make, and some > judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's reputation in this regard. But I > really think we agree more than we disagree here. > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't change > our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same kinds of > things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be called super-blind > because I do typical things like living with my fiancee and sharing cooking > duties with him, or walking independently around campus. And I think that > whenever we do accept help with something, there is always a trade-off > where > we have to give up something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like > paying > a taxi driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of freedom, > like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about whether or not > we > can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get is worth the > sacrifice, > but other times it's not, because the inconvenience on ourselves or others > is too great. Finally, I believe that in order to make knowledgeable > decisions about what we really need help doing, and what we don't, we > should > get decent training. If someone always has another person do their laundry > because they never tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy > it > might be for them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's > not worth the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we > never > know these things until we try them. > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind people, > who > would benefit greatly from a supported living community like Friedman > Place. > Offering these communities could really help make a dent in national crises > like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I think there are many other > populations in this country who need a place like Friedman far more than > blind people do. And while I don't fault those who choose to go to > Friedman, > I would submit that there are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get > low-cost housing, cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over > most of your spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the > hot date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and especially > getting training in daily living skills and job skills, gives us the > flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, either on our own or > with assistance. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 78, Issue 24 > ************************************** > -- Join me at: www.out-of-sight.net A free voice chat site for the blind Quote, Catch the vision! Its Out of Sight! Yes the iPad does have a autocorrect feature and a dictation feature. From lissa1531 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 15:20:13 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 09:20:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence References: Message-ID: <7B404B8F24E34F129FA85B0541827E6A@HP30910210001> very well said. i agree completely. the nature of independence is one of my favorite speeches. Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me at: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:09 PM Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence Hi all, Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a little better about not judging others who make different choices than what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we disagree here. I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If someone always has another person do their laundry because they never tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never know these things until we try them. I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I think there are many other populations in this country who need a place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, either on our own or with assistance. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 15:24:11 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 09:24:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> Message-ID: I was also bothered by the stages presented in that speech for similar reasons as Desiree. I don't really like stage models in general because I think everyone's experience is different and few people will move in a nice clean sequence from one stage to the next. I know I have exhibited rebellious independence at times, but it usually happens when I feel like my basic dignity is being threatened. When I was at the Louisiana Center for the Blind I didn't experience rebellious independence much at all because my basic dignity was affirmed. However, when I was a teenager I think I showed both fearful insecurity and rebellious independence at the same time because I was conflicted about whether or not I was deserving of independence and dignity. I have also felt that the blind-from-birth experience isn't always given due attention in NFB literature, and in some ways our experiences are a lot more complex than those who become blind later in life. In many ways being born blind is like being born an alien on a foreign planet where everybody else has some capacity you don't have. It's a lifelong process of adjusting to this foreign world, and your marginalized status within it, not a process of adjusting to any kind of loss. Arielle On 4/11/13, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: > Well, I have immediate examples I can present for both the second and > the third phase. First, the balanced independence. > > I work on an Air Force base. I could certainly get there by bus if I had > to, but there are problems. First, the route would take me over an hour > each way, even though I only live about 15 minutes from the base just > because of how the buses run. Second, the bus does not enter the > military base so I would have to walk from the gate to the building I > work in. I have a family member who drives me to and from work. To > compensate her for this, I pay her auto insurance payment every month, > as well as gas if she needs it. (sometimes the gas is not just for my > trips, it's for others she makes as well) Some would argue it's > dependence, but I see it more as compensating for the fact I don't have > a car. I'm simply exercising one option for dealing with that fact. A > sighted person who couldn't or simply didn't drive might do something > similar. > > Now, the militant thing. I'm not overly aggressive about this, but I > hesitate to ask people in the office for rides. I'll accept one if it's > offered, like if everyone in the office is going to a social function or > something like that. However, I won't even ask for a ride to the gate or > to one of the other locations on base. The reason for this is that I > know peple tend to make snap judgements about blindness, and I don't > want to give anyone in the office an excuse to do that by asking for a > ride or something like that. It's probably a bit irrational, honestly, > because there are other things I will sometimes ask for help with and > it's never a problem. For instance, they put a keypad with raised > buttons at the entrence to the two main buildings my department uses. > The standard one is this touch sensitive thing, and it makes it hard to > enter the PIN once I swipe my access card. I could do it if I had to > using my very limited sight and a little luck, but this way makes it so > I can do it much faster. Most people in my office know precisely why at > least one door in each of the buildings has a keypad like that now where > it didn't before. So yeah, I'm probably being rediculous about the not > asking for rides policy. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 11 15:27:08 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:27:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For me independence is knowing you can do it. Knowing and having had taken the bus to school, work, new places. My commute to school on the bus is 5 hours so we chose to have my fiance pick me up unless he is out of town. It is a 25 min drive home vs 2.5 to 2.75 hours home on the bus. So I am not giving up independence by getting picked up I am gaining time. Most evenings he picks me up and we go to the gym adn we still get home earlier than if I took the bus. When he is out of town on business which in the last couple of months happened a lot I did take the bus both ways. I lost a lot of homework time doing that. In the morning he drops em at the 2nd bus 2 miles from our house it takes us 3-4 min but saves me 45 minutes. I have done the 2 or more hours each way to school and work. I walked to school starting from first grade. I began taking the bus at 12 years old (boy have times changed) I would take my daughter to the zoo and other places on the bus. So I can and have done it but know chose to have time to spend with my fiance or do homework. What's interesting is since I am low vision I never got formal O & M so I was never taught to listen to the traffic. So even though I was on my own crossing streets I often felt nervous about it. I also find since I don't use a cane asking for assistance or directions is more difficult. I always start with "I am legally blind" or "I am visually impaired" and people still just point or say something like over by the blue sign. Or and quite often answer with "why don't you get glasses." Even after they point and I repeat I can't see that they still just don't get it. I did use a cane year ago before I got my red contacts then I would get the other end of the comments "You're not blind" As far as housecleaning many sighted people have housekeepers come. We do all our regular cleaning ourselves but every so often we chose to have someone come in to do deep cleaning not because I can't but because we chose not to do it ourselves. Also we have yard guys come while he is at work and I am at school. That frees up our weekends to do things we enjoy. Plus we live in Phoenix and can't stand heat so neither one of us would go out and do the yard from May through the end of October. So I think being independent is knowing you can do it even if you chose not to. I don't need to wast over 20 hours a week on teh bus to prove to myself or anyone else that I am independent. On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > Hi all, > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a > huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to > blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is > available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite > long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan > talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted > guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with > her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, > not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for > both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and > still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a > minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. > > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we > should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think > most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the > freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a > little better about not judging others who make different choices than > what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's > reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we > disagree here. > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't > change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same > kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be > called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my > fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently > around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with > something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up > something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi > driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of > freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about > whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get > is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the > inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe > that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really > need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If > someone always has another person do their laundry because they never > tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for > them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth > the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never > know these things until we try them. > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind > people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community > like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make > a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I > think there are many other populations in this country who need a > place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't > fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there > are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, > cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your > spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot > date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and > especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, > gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, > either on our own or with assistance. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 15:37:39 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:37:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> Message-ID: <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> It's almost like I've never had true equal status except in spots, and it wasn't without great effort. I'm not trying to complain or anything; it is what it is. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence I was also bothered by the stages presented in that speech for similar reasons as Desiree. I don't really like stage models in general because I think everyone's experience is different and few people will move in a nice clean sequence from one stage to the next. I know I have exhibited rebellious independence at times, but it usually happens when I feel like my basic dignity is being threatened. When I was at the Louisiana Center for the Blind I didn't experience rebellious independence much at all because my basic dignity was affirmed. However, when I was a teenager I think I showed both fearful insecurity and rebellious independence at the same time because I was conflicted about whether or not I was deserving of independence and dignity. I have also felt that the blind-from-birth experience isn't always given due attention in NFB literature, and in some ways our experiences are a lot more complex than those who become blind later in life. In many ways being born blind is like being born an alien on a foreign planet where everybody else has some capacity you don't have. It's a lifelong process of adjusting to this foreign world, and your marginalized status within it, not a process of adjusting to any kind of loss. Arielle On 4/11/13, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: > Well, I have immediate examples I can present for both the second and > the third phase. First, the balanced independence. > > I work on an Air Force base. I could certainly get there by bus if I > had to, but there are problems. First, the route would take me over an > hour each way, even though I only live about 15 minutes from the base > just because of how the buses run. Second, the bus does not enter the > military base so I would have to walk from the gate to the building I > work in. I have a family member who drives me to and from work. To > compensate her for this, I pay her auto insurance payment every month, > as well as gas if she needs it. (sometimes the gas is not just for my > trips, it's for others she makes as well) Some would argue it's > dependence, but I see it more as compensating for the fact I don't > have a car. I'm simply exercising one option for dealing with that > fact. A sighted person who couldn't or simply didn't drive might do > something similar. > > Now, the militant thing. I'm not overly aggressive about this, but I > hesitate to ask people in the office for rides. I'll accept one if > it's offered, like if everyone in the office is going to a social > function or something like that. However, I won't even ask for a ride > to the gate or to one of the other locations on base. The reason for > this is that I know peple tend to make snap judgements about > blindness, and I don't want to give anyone in the office an excuse to > do that by asking for a ride or something like that. It's probably a > bit irrational, honestly, because there are other things I will > sometimes ask for help with and it's never a problem. For instance, > they put a keypad with raised buttons at the entrence to the two main buildings my department uses. > The standard one is this touch sensitive thing, and it makes it hard > to enter the PIN once I swipe my access card. I could do it if I had > to using my very limited sight and a little luck, but this way makes > it so I can do it much faster. Most people in my office know precisely > why at least one door in each of the buildings has a keypad like that > now where it didn't before. So yeah, I'm probably being rediculous > about the not asking for rides policy. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 15:38:34 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:38:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. From jty727 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 16:13:16 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:13:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting project. On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's > first autonomous vehicle license. > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, > and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to > help navigate, according to the company. > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the > company. > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the > public, the DMV said. > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other > states, including Google's home state of California. > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car > legislation. > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, > the DMV said. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:05:01 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net><008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com><5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the challenge. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Justin Young Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting project. On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's > first autonomous vehicle license. > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, > and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to > help navigate, according to the company. > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the > company. > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the > public, the DMV said. > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other > states, including Google's home state of California. > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car > legislation. > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, > the DMV said. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:01:58 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:01:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: If I read right, the cars are not licensed for the public yet. I'm assuming they are licensed for companies to drive and test only. That's a long way from the public getting to drive them, in my opinion, because company employees are trained in how to work the cars, whereas the public may not be. ~Jewel On 4/11/13, Justin Young wrote: > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > project. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's >> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, >> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >> help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and >> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, >> the DMV said. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:16:50 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:16:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into account > > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if the > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could even > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the > challenge. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Young > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > project. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's >> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, >> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >> help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and >> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, >> the DMV said. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Thu Apr 11 17:30:12 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:30:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net><008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com><5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com><08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, Last night we had some friends over to discuss business opportunities. Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if you had an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the blind drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the whole time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a vehicle once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind for perches. We also told them that that same technology could with modification enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and would give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one of them it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us to meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kaiti Shelton" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into > account > > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if the > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could even > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the > challenge. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Young > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > project. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's >> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, >> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >> help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and >> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, >> the DMV said. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:33:16 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:33:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The link to the text of Dr. Jernigan's speech is https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/addres93.htm I find Dr. Jernigan's discussion of the three phases of independence helpful, particularly because I have seen it in my own life and the lives of others around me who are blind. I agree that these stages are rarely rigid or concrete, and their order can vary. I would also say that people experience these phases over and over again as they adapt to new life circumstances. As I get older and have more experience, I find myself functioning in the more balanced stage. However, from time to time I find myself functioning in the timid or rebelliously independent phases as I adapt to new life situations, such as moving to a new place or starting a new job. It makes sense that it will take some time to determine the most efficient way to do things with the least inconvenience to myself and others around me. In general, many of the techniques I use will be the same, but my context will determine the specifics of what that independence looks like. That period of adjustment might involve me being timid or wanting to prove to my new co-workers exactly how independent I can be. Fortunately these variations are short-lived and I can quickly return to my balanced approach. Thanks for bringing our attention to this speech Arielle. Finding people within the NFB who embraced this kind of philosophy helped me get past what I perceived to be "militance" within the organization. That militance is a huge turn off for our generation, but we should remember that it was born out of an era in which blind people did not have many of the rights we now enjoy and take for granted. The reason we have so many options and tools to choose from often stems from the fact that we have forbearers who were bold, committed, and took hard, even radical stances to change laws and policies that kept blind people from equal access. I still get uncomfortable with some of the NFBs positions and ideas sometimes, but I am committed to the organization because I have found a community of people who are committed to improving the lives of blind people. They truly believe blind people are capable and they work hard to equip people to live fulfilling and meaningful lives, reaching their potential through training, advocacy, legislation, research, etc. That, and the fact that I have found so many talented and professional blind people to connect with and learn from. What a great topic to discuss! I think it really gets at the heart of the organization and challenges some foundational misconceptions that keep people from signing up. Best, Greg On Apr 10, 2013, at 11:37 AM, justin williams wrote: > It's almost like I've never had true equal status except in spots, and it > wasn't without great effort. I'm not trying to complain or anything; it is > what it is. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:24 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence > > I was also bothered by the stages presented in that speech for similar > reasons as Desiree. I don't really like stage models in general because I > think everyone's experience is different and few people will move in a nice > clean sequence from one stage to the next. I know I have exhibited > rebellious independence at times, but it usually happens when I feel like my > basic dignity is being threatened. When I was at the Louisiana Center for > the Blind I didn't experience rebellious independence much at all because my > basic dignity was affirmed. However, when I was a teenager I think I showed > both fearful insecurity and rebellious independence at the same time because > I was conflicted about whether or not I was deserving of independence and > dignity. > I have also felt that the blind-from-birth experience isn't always given due > attention in NFB literature, and in some ways our experiences are a lot more > complex than those who become blind later in life. In many ways being born > blind is like being born an alien on a foreign planet where everybody else > has some capacity you don't have. It's a lifelong process of adjusting to > this foreign world, and your marginalized status within it, not a process of > adjusting to any kind of loss. > Arielle > > On 4/11/13, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: >> Well, I have immediate examples I can present for both the second and >> the third phase. First, the balanced independence. >> >> I work on an Air Force base. I could certainly get there by bus if I >> had to, but there are problems. First, the route would take me over an >> hour each way, even though I only live about 15 minutes from the base >> just because of how the buses run. Second, the bus does not enter the >> military base so I would have to walk from the gate to the building I >> work in. I have a family member who drives me to and from work. To >> compensate her for this, I pay her auto insurance payment every month, >> as well as gas if she needs it. (sometimes the gas is not just for my >> trips, it's for others she makes as well) Some would argue it's >> dependence, but I see it more as compensating for the fact I don't >> have a car. I'm simply exercising one option for dealing with that >> fact. A sighted person who couldn't or simply didn't drive might do >> something similar. >> >> Now, the militant thing. I'm not overly aggressive about this, but I >> hesitate to ask people in the office for rides. I'll accept one if >> it's offered, like if everyone in the office is going to a social >> function or something like that. However, I won't even ask for a ride >> to the gate or to one of the other locations on base. The reason for >> this is that I know peple tend to make snap judgements about >> blindness, and I don't want to give anyone in the office an excuse to >> do that by asking for a ride or something like that. It's probably a >> bit irrational, honestly, because there are other things I will >> sometimes ask for help with and it's never a problem. For instance, >> they put a keypad with raised buttons at the entrence to the two main > buildings my department uses. >> The standard one is this touch sensitive thing, and it makes it hard >> to enter the PIN once I swipe my access card. I could do it if I had >> to using my very limited sight and a little luck, but this way makes >> it so I can do it much faster. Most people in my office know precisely >> why at least one door in each of the buildings has a keypad like that >> now where it didn't before. So yeah, I'm probably being rediculous >> about the not asking for rides policy. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:03:14 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:03:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Kaitie, Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a looooooooong way off. Best, Kirt On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good afternoon everyone, > > Last night we had some friends over to discuss business opportunities. > Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if you had > > an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the blind > > drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the whole > > time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a vehicle > once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind for > perches. We also told them that that same technology could with modification > > enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and would > give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. > > These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one of them > > it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of > individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should > avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us to > meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're > looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position > financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kaiti Shelton" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio > in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together > and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) > > On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >> account >> >> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if the >> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could even >> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the >> challenge. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Justin Young >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> project. >> >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >>> company. >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >>> legislation. >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Apr 11 19:17:17 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:17:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130411121532.01e12a00@comcast.net> Good moring, Kirt, Give me the train, the bus! Driving is too much. Ya ever see sighted folk who agonize over predicaments they encounter on the road? for today, Car12:03 PM 4/11/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Kaitie, > Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most >libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly >trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for >the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public >licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people >will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, >when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a >qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually >intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally >blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling >down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, >I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a >looooooooong way off. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > > Good afternoon everyone, > > > > Last night we had some friends over to discuss business opportunities. > > Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do > if you had > > > > an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the blind > > > > drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the whole > > > > time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a vehicle > > once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind for > > perches. We also told them that that same technology could with > modification > > > > enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and would > > give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. > > > > These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own > one of them > > > > it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of > > individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should > > avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us to > > meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're > > looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position > > financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kaiti Shelton" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > > > Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio > > in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together > > and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) > > > > On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > >> Hello, > >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into > >> account > >> > >> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if the > >> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could even > >> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the > >> challenge. > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Justin Young > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > >> project. > >> > >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after > >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's > >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the > >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the > >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went > >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, > >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to > >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and > >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the > >>> company. > >>> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director > >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the > >>> public, the DMV said. > >>> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other > >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle > >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex > >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car > >>> legislation. > >>> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, > >>> the DMV said. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:21:20 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:21:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I remember hearing something on the radio recently that the NTSB is totally in favor of self-driving cars because they're a lot safer than human drivers. From what I've experienced as a pedestrian dealing with crazy drivers, I have to agree! :) Patrick On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kaitie, > Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most > libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly > trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for > the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public > licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people > will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, > when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a > qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually > intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally > blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling > down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, > I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a > looooooooong way off. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Good afternoon everyone, >> >> Last night we had some friends over to discuss business >> opportunities. >> Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if you >> had >> >> an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the >> blind >> >> drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the >> whole >> >> time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a >> vehicle >> once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind >> for >> perches. We also told them that that same technology could with >> modification >> >> enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and >> would >> give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. >> >> These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one of >> them >> >> it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of >> individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should >> avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us >> to >> meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're >> looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position >> financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio >> in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together >> and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) >> >> On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >>> account >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if the >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >>> even >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the >>> challenge. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Justin Young >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>> project. >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>> nation's >>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>> >>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>> >>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, >>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>> >>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >>>> and >>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >>>> company. >>>> >>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >>>> public, the DMV said. >>>> >>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>> >>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through >>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >>>> legislation. >>>> >>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>> Nevada, >>>> the DMV said. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:28:27 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:28:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <51670EDB.9020309@gmail.com> this is a more recent news story. 4/11/2013. No Hands, No Feet: My joyous Ride In Google's Driverless Car Chunka Mui Joann Muller Joann Muller There’s something unnerving about going for a drive on a crowded freeway with a guy who talks with his hands. But Chris Urmson didn’t seem the least bit fazed about taking his hands off the wheel (or his feet off the pedals) as we motored south on Silicon Valley’s Highway 101 at 65 miles per hour, so I tried to relax, too. Urmson is the leader of Google’s driverless car project and he was giving me a demonstration of the technology that has the entire auto industry buzzing. The car we were riding in was a white Lexus RX450h outfitted with a $65,000 laser sensor on the roof, and other gear that included radar sensors in the front and rear bumpers, a high-def camera looking out from the windshield, and another looking inward at the passengers – about $100,000 worth of extra technology in all. It’s all pulling in massive amounts of data. The laser, for instance, takes 1.5 million range measurements per second. On the instrument panel, a graphic depicted each of the cars around us as a white rectangle and tracked its movement relative to ours. It even picked up a motorcycle weaving its way between cars despite the fact that it wasn’t traveling in a marked lane. It also sent a message to let us know there was a tailgater following too closely behind us. Urmson was explaining to me that the “brains” of the whole system are stored in a laptop-sized computer stashed in the rear of the vehicle when suddenly a car in the next lane drifted across the lane marker as the driver fumbled to reach his hat on the passenger seat. Our Lexus automatically slowed, waiting to make sure the distracted driver recovered. Urmson just kept talking and waving his arms. I looked over at the steering wheel, which was moving ever so slightly to stay within the lane markers. If I didn’t know better, I’d say a ghost was driving. A few minutes later, a slow-moving truck merging onto the highway pulled in front of the line of vehicles we were following. Traffic slowed suddenly, and our Google car hit the brakes, too. I looked down, expecting to see Urmson’s foot firmly on the brake. But it was resting on the floor, as it had been since we entered the freeway. Weird. It was all very normal, except for the fact that Urmson wasn’t driving. “The challenge is we’re putting these on the road with humans,” he said. “So they need to react the way humans would.” Having recently taught my teenage daughter to drive, I can say it’s relatively easy to drive in a straight line on the freeway. The hard part is getting on and off the freeway. Indeed, this is where Urmson took the wheel. But the transition was all very seamless. He pushed the “off” button and took over. “The goal here is to make the technology disappear.” So far, Google has logged 500,000 miles of autonomous driving. Urmson explained that right now, engineers are working to perfect single-lane highway driving, but that with the right programming, Google’s car could be driven under any circumstances. This is no easy task, though. Even the best GPS system isn’t enough to pilot a driverless car. Before the car can drive itself, Google engineers have to drive the route themselves to gather data about the environment, and then add it to highly detailed maps of the roads and terrain. (Luckily, this is something that Google happens to be very good at.) When it’s the autonomous vehicle’s turn to drive, it compares the data it is acquiring from all those sensors and cameras to the previously recorded data. That helps it differentiate a pedestrian from a light pole. There are limitations, though. Urmson says the driverless car can’t handle heavy rain and can’t drive on snow-covered roads “because the appearance and shape of the world changes. It can’t figure out where to go or what to do.” And engineers are still working on how to program the car to handle “rare events” like encountering a stalled vehicle over the crest of a hill or identifying debris, like a tire carcass, in the middle of the road. But an exciting moment for Google engineers came one day when the autonomous car slowed suddenly on a city street when there was no traffic ahead of it. The engineers didn’t know why, until a pedestrian emerged from between two parked cars. The engineers hadn’t seen him. Also on Forbes: From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:31:04 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:31:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Carley, You live in Boston. I rest my case. Patrick, Fair enough; I'll happily concede that, when the technology is working, it's probably much safer than human drivers. Still, even the most durable computer will break occasionally. The best technology, while built to last, can't be guaranteed not to break or crash at a critical moment; if you've ever lost a peper you were working on and forgot to save, or had your hard drive die, or your phone break, or your cane snap, or whatever, you'll know what I'm talking about. Best, Kirt On 4/11/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: > I remember hearing something on the radio recently that the NTSB is > totally in favor of self-driving cars because they're a lot safer than > human drivers. From what I've experienced as a pedestrian dealing with > crazy drivers, I have to agree! :) > Patrick > > On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Kaitie, >> Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most >> libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly >> trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for >> the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public >> licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people >> will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, >> when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a >> qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually >> intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally >> blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling >> down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, >> I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a >> looooooooong way off. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> Good afternoon everyone, >>> >>> Last night we had some friends over to discuss business >>> opportunities. >>> Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if you >>> had >>> >>> an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the >>> blind >>> >>> drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the >>> whole >>> >>> time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a >>> vehicle >>> once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind >>> for >>> perches. We also told them that that same technology could with >>> modification >>> >>> enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and >>> would >>> give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. >>> >>> These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one of >>> them >>> >>> it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of >>> individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should >>> avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us >>> to >>> meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're >>> looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position >>> financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio >>> in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together >>> and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >>>> account >>>> >>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if >>>> the >>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >>>> even >>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the >>>> challenge. >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Justin Young >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>>> project. >>>> >>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >>>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>>> nation's >>>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>> >>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>> >>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >>>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >>>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>> >>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>>> lasers, >>>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >>>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>>> >>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >>>>> and >>>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>> >>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >>>>> company. >>>>> >>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >>>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >>>>> public, the DMV said. >>>>> >>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >>>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>> >>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>>> Through >>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >>>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >>>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >>>>> legislation. >>>>> >>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>>> Nevada, >>>>> the DMV said. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:32:12 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:32:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Sorry, my laptop keyboard is acting funy today and I forgot to proofread. On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Carley, > You live in Boston. I rest my case. > Patrick, > Fair enough; I'll happily concede that, when the technology is > working, it's probably much safer than human drivers. Still, even the > most durable computer will break occasionally. The best technology, > while built to last, can't be guaranteed not to break or crash at a > critical moment; if you've ever lost a peper you were working on and > forgot to save, or had your hard drive die, or your phone break, or > your cane snap, or whatever, you'll know what I'm talking about. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/11/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> I remember hearing something on the radio recently that the NTSB is >> totally in favor of self-driving cars because they're a lot safer than >> human drivers. From what I've experienced as a pedestrian dealing with >> crazy drivers, I have to agree! :) >> Patrick >> >> On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Kaitie, >>> Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most >>> libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly >>> trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for >>> the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public >>> licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people >>> will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, >>> when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a >>> qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually >>> intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally >>> blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling >>> down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, >>> I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a >>> looooooooong way off. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>> >>>> Last night we had some friends over to discuss business >>>> opportunities. >>>> Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if >>>> you >>>> had >>>> >>>> an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the >>>> blind >>>> >>>> drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the >>>> whole >>>> >>>> time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a >>>> vehicle >>>> once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind >>>> for >>>> perches. We also told them that that same technology could with >>>> modification >>>> >>>> enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and >>>> would >>>> give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. >>>> >>>> These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one of >>>> them >>>> >>>> it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of >>>> individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should >>>> avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us >>>> to >>>> meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're >>>> looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position >>>> financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio >>>> in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together >>>> and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >>>>> account >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if >>>>> the >>>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >>>>> even >>>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the >>>>> challenge. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>>>> project. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>>>> after >>>>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>>>> nation's >>>>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>> >>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>>>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >>>>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >>>>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>> >>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>>>> lasers, >>>>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >>>>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>> >>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >>>>>> and >>>>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>> >>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >>>>>> company. >>>>>> >>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >>>>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >>>>>> public, the DMV said. >>>>>> >>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >>>>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>> >>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>>>> Through >>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>>>> vehicle >>>>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >>>>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >>>>>> legislation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>>>> Nevada, >>>>>> the DMV said. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:39:36 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:39:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Robert, This only proves my point. The autopilot is designed to be quickly and easily turned off when human intervention, and sight, is needed. It's designed for "the technology to disappear", as the article so aptly puts it; this thing is designed so that a sighted driver can let the car do the driving but still be on the lookout to take over when needed. That's a very long way from something we could use; like I said, give it fifteen or twenty years and I might be able to drive one of these things, if I have a steady job and at least a six-figure income. Best, Kirt On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sorry, my laptop keyboard is acting funy today and I forgot to proofread. > > On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Carley, >> You live in Boston. I rest my case. >> Patrick, >> Fair enough; I'll happily concede that, when the technology is >> working, it's probably much safer than human drivers. Still, even the >> most durable computer will break occasionally. The best technology, >> while built to last, can't be guaranteed not to break or crash at a >> critical moment; if you've ever lost a peper you were working on and >> forgot to save, or had your hard drive die, or your phone break, or >> your cane snap, or whatever, you'll know what I'm talking about. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/11/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> I remember hearing something on the radio recently that the NTSB is >>> totally in favor of self-driving cars because they're a lot safer than >>> human drivers. From what I've experienced as a pedestrian dealing with >>> crazy drivers, I have to agree! :) >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Kaitie, >>>> Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most >>>> libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly >>>> trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for >>>> the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public >>>> licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people >>>> will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, >>>> when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a >>>> qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually >>>> intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally >>>> blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling >>>> down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, >>>> I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a >>>> looooooooong way off. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Last night we had some friends over to discuss business >>>>> opportunities. >>>>> Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if >>>>> you >>>>> had >>>>> >>>>> an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the >>>>> blind >>>>> >>>>> drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the >>>>> whole >>>>> >>>>> time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a >>>>> vehicle >>>>> once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind >>>>> for >>>>> perches. We also told them that that same technology could with >>>>> modification >>>>> >>>>> enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and >>>>> would >>>>> give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. >>>>> >>>>> These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one >>>>> of >>>>> them >>>>> >>>>> it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of >>>>> individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people >>>>> should >>>>> avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable >>>>> us >>>>> to >>>>> meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. >>>>> We're >>>>> looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position >>>>> financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio >>>>> in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together >>>>> and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >>>>>> account >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if >>>>>> the >>>>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >>>>>> even >>>>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the >>>>>> challenge. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>>>>> project. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>>>>> after >>>>>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>>>>> nation's >>>>>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>>>>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >>>>>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>>>>>> went >>>>>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>>>>> lasers, >>>>>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >>>>>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >>>>>>> company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >>>>>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>>>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >>>>>>> public, the DMV said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >>>>>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>>>>> Through >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>>>>> vehicle >>>>>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>>>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >>>>>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >>>>>>> legislation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>>>>> Nevada, >>>>>>> the DMV said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Thu Apr 11 19:53:48 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:53:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net><008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com><5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com><08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2><006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <002801ce36ee$48c41750$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, The technology to allow a blind person to drive one of these vehicles is all ready here. It's up to us to insure that when states adopt legislation to permit them to be driven on public right-of-ways sight will not be required for manual operation of such cars in the event that the autopilot must be over-ridden. I'm sure that Google and company will build in features that will automatically cause the vehicle to remove itself from the road in the event of a major system failure in such cases a tow truck would be needed instead of a blind or sighted driver to get it to the shop. I was surprised that this technology is now here and has all ready been road tested. We could be driving one of these machines sooner than we think given the rapid pace of technical development. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Robert, This only proves my point. The autopilot is designed to be quickly and easily turned off when human intervention, and sight, is needed. It's designed for "the technology to disappear", as the article so aptly puts it; this thing is designed so that a sighted driver can let the car do the driving but still be on the lookout to take over when needed. That's a very long way from something we could use; like I said, give it fifteen or twenty years and I might be able to drive one of these things, if I have a steady job and at least a six-figure income. Best, Kirt On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sorry, my laptop keyboard is acting funy today and I forgot to proofread. > > On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Carley, >> You live in Boston. I rest my case. >> Patrick, >> Fair enough; I'll happily concede that, when the technology is >> working, it's probably much safer than human drivers. Still, even the >> most durable computer will break occasionally. The best technology, >> while built to last, can't be guaranteed not to break or crash at a >> critical moment; if you've ever lost a peper you were working on and >> forgot to save, or had your hard drive die, or your phone break, or >> your cane snap, or whatever, you'll know what I'm talking about. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/11/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> I remember hearing something on the radio recently that the NTSB is >>> totally in favor of self-driving cars because they're a lot safer than >>> human drivers. From what I've experienced as a pedestrian dealing with >>> crazy drivers, I have to agree! :) >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Kaitie, >>>> Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most >>>> libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly >>>> trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for >>>> the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public >>>> licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people >>>> will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, >>>> when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a >>>> qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually >>>> intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally >>>> blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling >>>> down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, >>>> I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a >>>> looooooooong way off. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> Good afternoon everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Last night we had some friends over to discuss business >>>>> opportunities. >>>>> Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if >>>>> you >>>>> had >>>>> >>>>> an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the >>>>> blind >>>>> >>>>> drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the >>>>> whole >>>>> >>>>> time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a >>>>> vehicle >>>>> once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind >>>>> for >>>>> perches. We also told them that that same technology could with >>>>> modification >>>>> >>>>> enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and >>>>> would >>>>> give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. >>>>> >>>>> These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one >>>>> of >>>>> them >>>>> >>>>> it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of >>>>> individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people >>>>> should >>>>> avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable >>>>> us >>>>> to >>>>> meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. >>>>> We're >>>>> looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position >>>>> financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio >>>>> in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together >>>>> and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >>>>>> account >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if >>>>>> the >>>>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >>>>>> even >>>>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the >>>>>> challenge. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>>>>> project. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>>>>> after >>>>>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>>>>> nation's >>>>>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>>>>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >>>>>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>>>>>> went >>>>>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>>>>> lasers, >>>>>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >>>>>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >>>>>>> company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >>>>>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>>>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >>>>>>> public, the DMV said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >>>>>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>>>>> Through >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>>>>> vehicle >>>>>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>>>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >>>>>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >>>>>>> legislation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>>>>> Nevada, >>>>>>> the DMV said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From kramc11 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 20:16:23 2013 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:16:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net><008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com><5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com><08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2><006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411121532.01e12a00@comcast.net> Message-ID: Living in Boston, most of my sighted friends don't have cars, because parking is so expensive, and traffic is so bad, that it is just easier to take the T. that being said, that if I had access to a self driving car, I could have it drive me to someplace, drop me off at the front door, and return home, or go somewhere else to park itself. Or, picture an "uber" system with self driving cars. U pull out your smart phone, and call up the nearest one, it drives u then is available for the next guy. I truly believe that we will have an accessible autonomous vehicle as a viable transportation option within the next 20 years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carly Mihalakis" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > Good moring, Kirt, > > Give me the train, the bus! Driving is too much. Ya ever see sighted folk > who agonize over predicaments they encounter on the road? > for today, Car12:03 PM 4/11/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>Kaitie, >> Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most >>libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly >>trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for >>the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public >>licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people >>will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, >>when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a >>qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually >>intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally >>blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling >>down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, >>I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a >>looooooooong way off. >> Best, >>Kirt >> >>On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> > Good afternoon everyone, >> > >> > Last night we had some friends over to discuss business >> > opportunities. >> > Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do >> if you had >> > >> > an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the >> > blind >> > >> > drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the >> > whole >> > >> > time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a >> > vehicle >> > once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind >> > for >> > perches. We also told them that that same technology could with >> modification >> > >> > enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and >> > would >> > give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. >> > >> > These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own >> one of them >> > >> > it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of >> > individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should >> > avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us >> > to >> > meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're >> > looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position >> > financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Kaiti Shelton" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > >> > Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio >> > in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together >> > and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) >> > >> > On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >> >> account >> >> >> >> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if >> >> the >> >> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >> >> even >> >> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the >> >> challenge. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Justin Young >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> >> project. >> >> >> >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >>> after >> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> >>> nation's >> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >>> >> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >>> >> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >>> lasers, >> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >> >>> >> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >> >>> and >> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >> >>> company. >> >>> >> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >> >>> public, the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >>> >> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >>> Through >> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >>> vehicle >> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >> >>> legislation. >> >>> >> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >>> Nevada, >> >>> the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kaiti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From jeffc4 at lavabit.com Thu Apr 11 20:27:13 2013 From: jeffc4 at lavabit.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:27:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help Message-ID: <000001ce36f2$f3d04020$db70c060$@com> Hi everyone, I have MSO 2007, and am using outlook, I setup to different email accounts with the client, and I want to know, since I am reseaving email from both, how do I view the different accounts inboxes and things like that. thanks Jeff Crouch ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ internet radio station- http://wnntech.com twitter- kd8qiq From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 20:37:13 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:37:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <51671f2a.6446ec0a.2d63.ffffab41@mx.google.com> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 21:02:08 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <51671f2a.6446ec0a.2d63.ffffab41@mx.google.com> References: <51671f2a.6446ec0a.2d63.ffffab41@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <93B58B3E660643FFABC5F4FCF49C0C06@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong with backing both cars. The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common tasks. If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely entered into the database. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 21:48:11 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:48:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <93B58B3E660643FFABC5F4FCF49C0C06@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <51671f2a.6446ec0a.2d63.ffffab41@mx.google.com> <93B58B3E660643FFABC5F4FCF49C0C06@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Sophie, I haven't really seen any new and substantive information about the NFB car since I saw Mark Riccabono drive it in Daytona Beach. On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong with > > backing both cars. > The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a > > computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to read > > a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will > have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and > companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. > Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common > tasks. > If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or > > no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country > road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely > > entered into the database. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > superior. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello, > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > into account > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > if the > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > could even > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > the > challenge. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Young > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > interesting > project. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > after > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > nation's > first autonomous vehicle license. > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > in > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > the > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > the > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > went > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > lasers, > and a database of information collected from manually driven > cars to > help navigate, according to the company. > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > professor and > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > and > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > the > company. > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > director > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > the > public, the DMV said. > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > other > states, including Google's home state of California. > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > Through > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > vehicle > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > Alex > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > car > legislation. > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > Nevada, > the DMV said. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 22:03:08 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:03:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] reminder: last call for RSVP's for Maryland Association of Blind Students Social Savvy Seminar Message-ID: <002701ce3700$5c40ee90$14c2cbb0$@gmail.com> Hello all, Time is running short to RSVP for the Maryland Association of Blind Students' seminar on "Social Savvy," to be held on April 27 in Chevy Chase, MD. During this seminar, we will discuss a wide variety of timely social issues, including party planning/attending, table ettiquet, fashion, chivalry, tie-tying, makeup and many more. This seminar will also feature some fun activities, including icebreakers and a "battle of the sexes" as well as lunch. It will be an enjoyable and informative event you will not want to miss! So, if you can make it, please make sure to email Melissa Lomax at mlomax1 at umbc.edu by Monday, April 15 to RSVP. In case you missed our previous announcement, the flyer for the seminar is attached to this email. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us. I hope to see you at the seminar!! Thanks, Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students: a division of the National Federation of the Blind of Maryland Phone: (443) 547-2409 Email: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Personal Twitter: @Chrisn98 MDABS Twitter: @MDMdabs Personal Facebook: www.facebook.com/dotkid Join the MDABS Facebook Group: search for Maryland Association of Blind Students Skype: christpher.nusbaum3 or search for Chris Nusbaum "Together, we are changing what it means to be blind." - Motto of the Louisiana Center for the Blind -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Social Savvy Seminar.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 13216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 22:09:47 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:09:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help In-Reply-To: <000001ce36f2$f3d04020$db70c060$@com> References: <000001ce36f2$f3d04020$db70c060$@com> Message-ID: <002d01ce3701$4885db30$d9919190$@gmail.com> Jeff, To do this, shift tab to the favorites tree-view, then down-arrow to the account you want and press right-arrow to open it. Hope this helps, Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Crouch Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help Hi everyone, I have MSO 2007, and am using outlook, I setup to different email accounts with the client, and I want to know, since I am reseaving email from both, how do I view the different accounts inboxes and things like that. thanks Jeff Crouch ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ internet radio station- http://wnntech.com twitter- kd8qiq _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Apr 12 01:17:07 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:17:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9016DA13-5BE7-44D4-ACFB-815D143C8C5D@samobile.net> Part of the problem is that Jernigan's model oversimplified things a bit. For instance, he didn't account for the fact that a person's response to independence depends on a number of factors ranging from personality to an individualized conception of boundaries. And you're right: everyone develops in their sense of independence differently. All that said, I am with you on this one: I feel a little frustrated when I read this speech for more or less the same reasons. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone On Apr 10, 2013, at 11:47 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get > some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite > offensive about the wording of that particular speech. > When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several > letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he > spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was > free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him > independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for > themselves while they were in training. he basically said that > students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first > is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student > doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is > aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly > refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, > hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair > summation? I believe it is. > If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that > every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is > hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, > for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust > to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about > it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't > exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state > of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people > are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for > sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For > a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that > everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack > of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any > favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students > doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all > humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very > well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and > situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by > emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do > something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point > where their egoes inflate exponentially. > I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me > a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought > I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, > what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for > training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such > a juvenile fashion? > > On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >> huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >> blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >> available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >> long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >> talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >> guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >> her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >> not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >> both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >> still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >> The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >> minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >> >> To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >> espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >> should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >> most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >> freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >> little better about not judging others who make different choices than >> what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >> reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >> disagree here. >> I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >> independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >> change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >> kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >> called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >> fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >> around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >> something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >> something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >> driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >> sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >> somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >> freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >> whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >> is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >> inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >> that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >> need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >> someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >> tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >> them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >> the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >> know these things until we try them. >> I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >> people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >> like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >> a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >> think there are many other populations in this country who need a >> place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >> fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >> are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >> cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >> spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >> date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >> small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >> especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >> gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >> either on our own or with assistance. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 01:23:07 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:23:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 01:33:19 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:33:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] help with 10-minute survey and win an Amazon.com gift certificate! Message-ID: Hi all, My name is Katie Wang; I’m a Psychology graduate student at Yale University. I’m conducting an on-line study on how blind and visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate. If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take you directly to the survey. https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for your time and assistance! Best, Katie From jeffc4 at lavabit.com Fri Apr 12 02:45:10 2013 From: jeffc4 at lavabit.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:45:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help In-Reply-To: <002d01ce3701$4885db30$d9919190$@gmail.com> References: <000001ce36f2$f3d04020$db70c060$@com> <002d01ce3701$4885db30$d9919190$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01ce3727$c149e220$43dda660$@com> Hi Well when I go to the favorite tree view, it doesn't show both accounts. thanks -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 6:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help Jeff, To do this, shift tab to the favorites tree-view, then down-arrow to the account you want and press right-arrow to open it. Hope this helps, Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Crouch Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help Hi everyone, I have MSO 2007, and am using outlook, I setup to different email accounts with the client, and I want to know, since I am reseaving email from both, how do I view the different accounts inboxes and things like that. thanks Jeff Crouch ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ internet radio station- http://wnntech.com twitter- kd8qiq _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffc4%40lavabit.com ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Your personal email. Anytime, anywhere. Ridiculously affordable at $19.95. No contracts. http://www.getpeek.com/lavabit.html ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ From kingettr at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:49:18 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:49:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] today: driving with the google car. 4/13 In-Reply-To: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5167762E.6010001@gmail.com> this is a more recent news story. 4/11/2013. No Hands, No Feet: My joyous Ride In Google's Driverless Car Chunka Mui Joann Muller Joann Muller There’s something unnerving about going for a drive on a crowded freeway with a guy who talks with his hands. But Chris Urmson didn’t seem the least bit fazed about taking his hands off the wheel (or his feet off the pedals) as we motored south on Silicon Valley’s Highway 101 at 65 miles per hour, so I tried to relax, too. Urmson is the leader of Google’s driverless car project and he was giving me a demonstration of the technology that has the entire auto industry buzzing. The car we were riding in was a white Lexus RX450h outfitted with a $65,000 laser sensor on the roof, and other gear that included radar sensors in the front and rear bumpers, a high-def camera looking out from the windshield, and another looking inward at the passengers – about $100,000 worth of extra technology in all. It’s all pulling in massive amounts of data. The laser, for instance, takes 1.5 million range measurements per second. On the instrument panel, a graphic depicted each of the cars around us as a white rectangle and tracked its movement relative to ours. It even picked up a motorcycle weaving its way between cars despite the fact that it wasn’t traveling in a marked lane. It also sent a message to let us know there was a tailgater following too closely behind us. Urmson was explaining to me that the “brains” of the whole system are stored in a laptop-sized computer stashed in the rear of the vehicle when suddenly a car in the next lane drifted across the lane marker as the driver fumbled to reach his hat on the passenger seat. Our Lexus automatically slowed, waiting to make sure the distracted driver recovered. Urmson just kept talking and waving his arms. I looked over at the steering wheel, which was moving ever so slightly to stay within the lane markers. If I didn’t know better, I’d say a ghost was driving. A few minutes later, a slow-moving truck merging onto the highway pulled in front of the line of vehicles we were following. Traffic slowed suddenly, and our Google car hit the brakes, too. I looked down, expecting to see Urmson’s foot firmly on the brake. But it was resting on the floor, as it had been since we entered the freeway. Weird. It was all very normal, except for the fact that Urmson wasn’t driving. “The challenge is we’re putting these on the road with humans,” he said. “So they need to react the way humans would.” Having recently taught my teenage daughter to drive, I can say it’s relatively easy to drive in a straight line on the freeway. The hard part is getting on and off the freeway. Indeed, this is where Urmson took the wheel. But the transition was all very seamless. He pushed the “off” button and took over. “The goal here is to make the technology disappear.” So far, Google has logged 500,000 miles of autonomous driving. Urmson explained that right now, engineers are working to perfect single-lane highway driving, but that with the right programming, Google’s car could be driven under any circumstances. This is no easy task, though. Even the best GPS system isn’t enough to pilot a driverless car. Before the car can drive itself, Google engineers have to drive the route themselves to gather data about the environment, and then add it to highly detailed maps of the roads and terrain. (Luckily, this is something that Google happens to be very good at.) When it’s the autonomous vehicle’s turn to drive, it compares the data it is acquiring from all those sensors and cameras to the previously recorded data. That helps it differentiate a pedestrian from a light pole. There are limitations, though. Urmson says the driverless car can’t handle heavy rain and can’t drive on snow-covered roads “because the appearance and shape of the world changes. It can’t figure out where to go or what to do.” And engineers are still working on how to program the car to handle “rare events” like encountering a stalled vehicle over the crest of a hill or identifying debris, like a tire carcass, in the middle of the road. But an exciting moment for Google engineers came one day when the autonomous car slowed suddenly on a city street when there was no traffic ahead of it. The engineers didn’t know why, until a pedestrian emerged from between two parked cars. The engineers hadn’t seen him. Also on Forbes: From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 03:32:30 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> Hi, List, On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! So no, on the car! Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 04:36:16 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:36:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> Message-ID: Carly, I respectfully have to disagree with you here. Let me go through and explain why. First and foremost, a Google autonomous car would be advantageous to sighted people as well. How many accidents would be prevented if we gave things over to a computer? Many people these days feel that "they know best," and will do, frankly, stupid things while driving. These things are the cause of many accidents daily. So, if we put a computer in charge and programmed it to follow the rules of the road, I believe we would see the statistics for auto accidents drop off at least to a certain extent. Secondly, buses/friends are all fine and good, but what if you live in a rural area with little to no public transport at your disposal? Do you really want to wait around for someone to pick you up like you're a little kid again? Somehow I don't see many blind people going for that option. (It would seem that waiting to be dependent on a friend/driver would run exactly counter to everything championed by many federationists.) Thirdly, autonomous vehicles are more prevalent than you may realize. Let's start at the beginning, with elevators. There was a time when each and every elevator in a building had an operator to push the button for the floor. Now we do that ourselves. Now, to a more current example: Airplanes. Do you really think that commercial airline pilots are doing all that much nowadays? I have it on good authority that in many cases, the pilot of an airplane is just there for the takeoff and landing. Once the plane is airborne, autopilot handles the rest quite nicely. Finally, you mention communal experience. Well, the long-term goal of autonomous cars would be that Car #1 would be driving down the road, see a road closed sign and communicate said closure to cars #2 #3 and #4. So, autonomous cars would actually wind up benefitting a number of people. To touch on your comment about price, it's a valid point. But also realize that all new technology was expensive when it first came out. How much did the personal computer cost when it came out? And how much does the thing cost now? As the saying goes, patience is a virtue. Understand that I do see the flaws in technology. No system is perfect. But, we're on the verge of something incredible here and I think it would be foolish to discount it before we even have a chance to test it out. Personally, if I decided not to buy one of these cars, it would be after I'd been in the thing and realized it wasn't for me. Now, I could be totally off base here and the system could turn out to be the biggest flop. But, when a number of experts, from Google and other places, are all excited about this, I think it deserves the time of day. It would be jumping the shark to immediately say that this thing wouldn't work. Yes it has its flaws, but human drivers are pretty flawed too! Let's give the good folks at Google credit first and foremost for what they've done and are still doing. And let's give them time and see what they come up with. Patrick On 4/11/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, List, > > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > So no, on the car! > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>Hello, >>The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >> with >>backing both cars. >>The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >> a >>computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >> read >>a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >>companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>tasks. >>If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >> or >>no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >>road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> completely >>entered into the database. >>Thanks, >> >>Brandon Keith Biggs >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Sophie Trist >>Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>superior. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>Hello, >>Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>into account >>I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>if the >>government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>could even >>ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>the >>challenge. >>Thanks, >> >>Brandon Keith Biggs >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Justin Young >>Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>interesting >>project. >> >>On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>after >>the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>nation's >>first autonomous vehicle license. >> >>The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>in >>Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>the >>Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >>The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>the >>state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>went >>into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >>Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>lasers, >>and a database of information collected from manually driven >>cars to >>help navigate, according to the company. >> >>The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>professor and >>Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >>Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>and >>driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>the >>company. >> >>Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>director >>Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>the >>public, the DMV said. >> >>Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>other >>states, including Google's home state of California. >> >>"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>Through >>the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>vehicle >>is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>Alex >>Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>car >>legislation. >> >>Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>Nevada, >>the DMV said. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >>nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>l.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>r%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>r%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 05:15:12 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:15:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> Message-ID: <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, List, On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! So no, on the car! Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dandrews at visi.com Fri Apr 12 06:06:59 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:06:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Desiree: I would like to say a few things here, and hope I don't make you too mad. That is not my intention. First, there is a wall between you and the NFB, if you put one up. We are not trying to do so. You may be over analyzing this stuff -- but maybe not. The language, norms, procedures and approaches in any field change over time. This speech was written 20 years ago. Today it is commonplace to acknowledge that we are all different, which we are, etc. Twenty years ago, people wouldn't have been as sensitive to such a thing. This was a speech and you make generalizations, to a certain extent, to explain stuff and to reach a lot of people. This has been an influential and powerful speech for some years. You are asking us to acknowledge that it is a grey world out there, not black and white, that people are different. I would agree but I am not sure you give us the same courtesy. You paint us with black and white pictures and then reject us. Dave At 11:47 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote: >Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get >some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite >offensive about the wording of that particular speech. >When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several >letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he >spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was >free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him >independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for >themselves while they were in training. he basically said that >students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first >is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student >doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is >aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly >refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, >hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair >summation? I believe it is. >If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that >every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is >hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, >for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust >to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about >it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't >exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state >of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people >are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for >sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For >a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that >everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack >of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any >favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students >doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all >humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very >well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and >situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by >emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do >something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point >where their egoes inflate exponentially. >I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me >a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought >I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, >what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for >training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such >a juvenile fashion? > >On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi all, > > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a > > huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to > > blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is > > available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite > > long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan > > talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted > > guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with > > her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, > > not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for > > both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and > > still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: > > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a > > minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. > > > > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are > > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we > > should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think > > most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the > > freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a > > little better about not judging others who make different choices than > > what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's > > reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we > > disagree here. > > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain > > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't > > change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same > > kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be > > called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my > > fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently > > around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with > > something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up > > something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi > > driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time > > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go > > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of > > freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about > > whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get > > is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the > > inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe > > that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really > > need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If > > someone always has another person do their laundry because they never > > tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for > > them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth > > the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never > > know these things until we try them. > > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind > > people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community > > like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make > > a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I > > think there are many other populations in this country who need a > > place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't > > fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there > > are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, > > cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your > > spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot > > date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are > > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and > > especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, > > gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, > > either on our own or with assistance. > > Best, > > Arielle From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 06:22:56 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 02:22:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help In-Reply-To: <001e01ce3727$c149e220$43dda660$@com> References: <000001ce36f2$f3d04020$db70c060$@com> <002d01ce3701$4885db30$d9919190$@gmail.com> <001e01ce3727$c149e220$43dda660$@com> Message-ID: Hi, If it doesn't show both accounts try setting up the missing account again. It probably didn't get set up. Then using the instructions Chris gave you you should be good. On 4/11/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: > Hi > Well when I go to the favorite tree view, it doesn't show both accounts. > > thanks > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 6:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help > > Jeff, > > To do this, shift tab to the favorites tree-view, then down-arrow to the > account you want and press right-arrow to open it. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Crouch > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:27 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help > > Hi everyone, > > I have MSO 2007, and am using outlook, I setup to different email accounts > with the client, and I want to know, since I am reseaving email from both, > how do I view the different accounts inboxes and things like that. > > > > thanks > > > > Jeff Crouch > > ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ > > internet radio station- http://wnntech.com > > twitter- kd8qiq > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffc4%40lavabit.com > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ________ > Your personal email. Anytime, anywhere. > Ridiculously affordable at $19.95. No contracts. > http://www.getpeek.com/lavabit.html > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 06:39:38 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:39:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Patrick, If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was viable to the general public. And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention in the event something goes wrong. Carley, I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time soon. Best, Kirt On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > Mihalakis > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi, List, > > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > So no, on the car! > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>Hello, >>The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong > with >>backing both cars. >>The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >> a >>computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to > read >>a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >>companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>tasks. >>If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >> or >>no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >>road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> completely >>entered into the database. >>Thanks, >> >>Brandon Keith Biggs >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Sophie Trist >>Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>superior. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>Hello, >>Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>into account >>I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>if the >>government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>could even >>ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>the >>challenge. >>Thanks, >> >>Brandon Keith Biggs >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Justin Young >>Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>interesting >>project. >> >>On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>after >>the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>nation's >>first autonomous vehicle license. >> >>The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>in >>Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>the >>Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >>The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>the >>state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>went >>into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >>Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>lasers, >>and a database of information collected from manually driven >>cars to >>help navigate, according to the company. >> >>The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>professor and >>Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >>Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>and >>driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>the >>company. >> >>Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>director >>Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>the >>public, the DMV said. >> >>Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>other >>states, including Google's home state of California. >> >>"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>Through >>the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>vehicle >>is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>Alex >>Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>car >>legislation. >> >>Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>Nevada, >>the DMV said. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >>nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>l.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>r%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>r%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 11:09:17 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:09:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Kirt, I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone reposted here mentioned. Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might give me in this area. Just my thoughts, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > soon. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >> with >>> backing both cars. >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >>> a >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >> read >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>> tasks. >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >>> or >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> completely >>> entered into the database. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> superior. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> into account >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> if the >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> could even >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> the >>> challenge. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Justin Young >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> interesting >>> project. >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> after >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> nation's >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> in >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> the >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> the >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> went >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> lasers, >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> cars to >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> professor and >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> and >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> the >>> company. >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> director >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> the >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> other >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> Through >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> vehicle >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> Alex >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> car >>> legislation. >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> Nevada, >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 11:44:35 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:44:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 12:08:55 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 05:08:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412050635.01c56220@comcast.net> Good morning, I'd ride with someone else in a GOOGLE car as Patrick says, just to see. I don't know how to drive myself and don't really care about learning how. Car/12/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to >rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super >reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting >with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not >want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing >listDate sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 12:16:14 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 05:16:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >Kirt, > >I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >reposted here mentioned. > >Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >give me in this area. > >Just my thoughts, > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > > Patrick, > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > > viable to the general public. > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > > in the event something goes wrong. > > Carley, > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > > soon. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >> Mihalakis > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> Hi, List, > >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > >> friend/driver cannot? > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> So no, on the car! > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong > >> with > >>> backing both cars. > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or > >>> a > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to > >> read > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common > >>> tasks. > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little > >>> or > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway > or country > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>> completely > >>> entered into the database. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sophie Trist > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>> superior. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>> into account > >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >>> if the > >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>> could even > >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >>> the > >>> challenge. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Justin Young > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >>> interesting > >>> project. > >>> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>> after > >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>> nation's > >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >>> in > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>> the > >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>> the > >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >>> went > >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>> lasers, > >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >>> cars to > >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>> professor and > >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >>> and > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>> the > >>> company. > >>> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>> director > >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >>> the > >>> public, the DMV said. > >>> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>> other > >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>> Through > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>> vehicle > >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >>> Alex > >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >>> car > >>> legislation. > >>> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>> Nevada, > >>> the DMV said. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 12:12:17 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:12:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help In-Reply-To: References: <000001ce36f2$f3d04020$db70c060$@com> <002d01ce3701$4885db30$d9919190$@gmail.com> <001e01ce3727$c149e220$43dda660$@com> Message-ID: <7199752972685668778@unknownmsgid> Yes; it usually takes some time to verify the account information and connect to the server. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:24 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > If it doesn't show both accounts try setting up the missing account > again. It probably didn't get set up. Then using the instructions > Chris gave you you should be good. > > On 4/11/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: >> Hi >> Well when I go to the favorite tree view, it doesn't show both accounts. >> >> thanks >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 6:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help >> >> Jeff, >> >> To do this, shift tab to the favorites tree-view, then down-arrow to the >> account you want and press right-arrow to open it. >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Crouch >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:27 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I have MSO 2007, and am using outlook, I setup to different email accounts >> with the client, and I want to know, since I am reseaving email from both, >> how do I view the different accounts inboxes and things like that. >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> >> >> Jeff Crouch >> >> ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ >> >> internet radio station- http://wnntech.com >> >> twitter- kd8qiq >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffc4%40lavabit.com >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________ >> ________ >> Your personal email. Anytime, anywhere. >> Ridiculously affordable at $19.95. No contracts. >> http://www.getpeek.com/lavabit.html >> ____________________________________________________________________________ >> ________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 12:08:29 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:08:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1799315182319119008@unknownmsgid> Amen, Sophie! You could rely on a friend, family member, or other hired driver for your transportation, but this doesn't always work because you need to juggle their schedule with yours. Carly, how many sighted people have you known to rely solely on public transportation in your area? Granted, many people in NYC don't have cars. But this is due to the layout of the city, which makes it more efficient to use public transportation. In most cities, however, many people still use cars to travel in the city, despite the reliability of the transit system. This is definitely true in Baltimore and even in Washington, DC. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Sophie Trist wrote: > Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi, List, > > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > So no, on the car! > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello, > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong with > backing both cars. > The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a > computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to read > a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will > have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and > companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. > Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common > tasks. > If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or > no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country > road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely > entered into the database. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > superior. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello, > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > into account > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > if the > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > could even > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > the > challenge. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Young > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > interesting > project. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > after > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > nation's > first autonomous vehicle license. > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > in > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > the > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > the > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > went > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > lasers, > and a database of information collected from manually driven > cars to > help navigate, according to the company. > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > professor and > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > and > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > the > company. > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > director > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > the > public, the DMV said. > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > other > states, including Google's home state of California. > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > Through > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > vehicle > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > Alex > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > car > legislation. > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > Nevada, > the DMV said. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co > mcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Apr 12 12:54:04 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 05:54:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give me a Google car!! On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > > > Patrick, > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > > viable to the general public. > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > > in the event something goes wrong. > > Carley, > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > > soon. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >> Mihalakis > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> Hi, List, > >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > >> friend/driver cannot? > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> So no, on the car! > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > going > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong > >> with > >>> backing both cars. > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control > or > >>> a > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to > >> read > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and > will > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem > and > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > screen. > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common > >>> tasks. > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > little > >>> or > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > country > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>> completely > >>> entered into the database. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sophie Trist > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>> superior. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>> into account > >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >>> if the > >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>> could even > >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >>> the > >>> challenge. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Justin Young > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >>> interesting > >>> project. > >>> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>> after > >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>> nation's > >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >>> in > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>> the > >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>> the > >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >>> went > >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>> lasers, > >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >>> cars to > >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>> professor and > >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >>> and > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>> the > >>> company. > >>> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>> director > >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >>> the > >>> public, the DMV said. > >>> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>> other > >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>> Through > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>> vehicle > >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >>> Alex > >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >>> car > >>> legislation. > >>> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>> Nevada, > >>> the DMV said. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Apr 12 13:04:04 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:04:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good morning everyone, One thing we should keep in mind is that certain issues or choices may not be important to an individual but they are very significant to others. You may not want a car of your own to drive but get behind our efforts to develop a vehicle drivable by a blind person for those who want that choice and all that comes with it. Maybe you don't mind sitting around waiting for a bus or a paratransit vehicle to show up but others live busy lives and would benefit from having their own transportation they can use at their convenience and not be limited to living in areas where public transportation is available. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sophie Trist" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 13:03:14 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:03:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > > You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> > Patrick, >> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> > viable to the general public. >> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >> > in the event something goes wrong. >> > Carley, >> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >> > soon. >> > Best, >> > Kirt >> > >> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> >> Mihalakis >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> Hi, List, >> >> >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> >> friend/driver cannot? >> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> So no, on the car! >> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Hello, >> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >> >> with >> >>> backing both cars. >> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >> >>> a >> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >> >> read >> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >> >>> tasks. >> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >> >>> or >> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> >>> completely >> >>> entered into the database. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >>> superior. >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Hello, >> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >>> into account >> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> >>> if the >> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >>> could even >> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> >>> the >> >>> challenge. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Justin Young >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >>> interesting >> >>> project. >> >>> >> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >>> after >> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> >>> nation's >> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >>> >> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> >>> in >> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >>> the >> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >>> >> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> >>> the >> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> >>> went >> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >>> lasers, >> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> >>> cars to >> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >> >>> >> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >>> professor and >> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> >>> and >> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> >>> the >> >>> company. >> >>> >> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >>> director >> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> >>> the >> >>> public, the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >>> other >> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >>> >> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >>> Through >> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >>> vehicle >> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> >>> Alex >> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> >>> car >> >>> legislation. >> >>> >> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >>> Nevada, >> >>> the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>> info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> >>> l.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sandersj6 at att.net Fri Apr 12 13:25:12 2013 From: sandersj6 at att.net (sandersj6 at att.net) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:25:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net><005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com><-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <57462E1D2D4B454D9C484115DB9D863B@JohnPC> Hi, I would as well. I'm 27 years of age and it takes me an hour to get to where I'm going on the city bus. And having to stand outside in the cold weather in the winter isn't good. I would take a Google car over the city bus. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have been riding the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give me a Google car!! On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > > > Patrick, > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realistically > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > to drive. Where the Google car is now is probably comparable to where > > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > > viable to the general public. > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > > in the event something goes wrong. > > Carley, > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > > soon. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/10/13, Justin Williams wrote: > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, driven. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >> Mihalakis > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> Hi, List, > >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility toward their fellow > >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > >> friend/driver cannot? > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> So no, on the car! > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>> I can't wait to see these Google cars come out. It will be a major > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > going > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >>> wrong > >> with > >>> backing both cars. > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control > or > >>> a > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader > >>> to > >> read > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and > will > >>> have mainstream support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstream > and > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > screen. > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > >>> common > >>> tasks. > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > little > >>> or > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > country > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>> completely > >>> entered into the database. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sophie Trist > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>> them to back the Google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>> superior. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>> into account > >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >>> if the > >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>> could even > >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >>> the > >>> challenge. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Justin Young > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >>> interesting > >>> project. > >>> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>> after > >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>> nation's > >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >>> in > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>> the > >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>> the > >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >>> went > >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>> lasers, > >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >>> cars to > >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>> professor and > >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >>> and > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>> the > >>> company. > >>> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>> director > >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >>> the > >>> public, the DMV said. > >>> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>> other > >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>> Through > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>> vehicle > >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >>> Alex > >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >>> car > >>> legislation. > >>> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>> Nevada, > >>> the DMV said. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 14:06:38 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:06:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <57462E1D2D4B454D9C484115DB9D863B@JohnPC> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net><005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com><-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <57462E1D2D4B454D9C484115DB9D863B@JohnPC> Message-ID: <005101ce36bd$c9565440$5c02fcc0$@gmail.com> Of course. Don need to make sure you have a back up system in the car, or a default systemin case the computer breaks down. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sandersj6 at att.net Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, I would as well. I'm 27 years of age and it takes me an hour to get to where I'm going on the city bus. And having to stand outside in the cold weather in the winter isn't good. I would take a Google car over the city bus. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have been riding the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give me a Google car!! On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > > > Patrick, > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realistically > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > to drive. Where the Google car is now is probably comparable to where > > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > > viable to the general public. > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > > in the event something goes wrong. > > Carley, > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > > soon. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/10/13, Justin Williams wrote: > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, driven. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >> Mihalakis > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> Hi, List, > >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility toward their fellow > >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > >> friend/driver cannot? > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> So no, on the car! > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>> I can't wait to see these Google cars come out. It will be a major > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > going > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >>> wrong > >> with > >>> backing both cars. > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control > or > >>> a > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader > >>> to > >> read > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and > will > >>> have mainstream support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstream > and > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > screen. > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > >>> common > >>> tasks. > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > little > >>> or > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > country > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>> completely > >>> entered into the database. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sophie Trist > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>> them to back the Google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>> superior. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>> into account > >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >>> if the > >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>> could even > >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >>> the > >>> challenge. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Justin Young > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >>> interesting > >>> project. > >>> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>> after > >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>> nation's > >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >>> in > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>> the > >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>> the > >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >>> went > >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>> lasers, > >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >>> cars to > >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>> professor and > >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >>> and > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>> the > >>> company. > >>> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>> director > >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >>> the > >>> public, the DMV said. > >>> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>> other > >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>> Through > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>> vehicle > >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >>> Alex > >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >>> car > >>> legislation. > >>> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>> Nevada, > >>> the DMV said. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 14:07:42 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:07:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <005301ce36bd$ef738fd0$ce5aaf70$@gmail.com> Or not having the ability to apply for jobs because of transportation. That's one reason I came back to school. I' under employed due to transportation. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:04 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Good morning everyone, One thing we should keep in mind is that certain issues or choices may not be important to an individual but they are very significant to others. You may not want a car of your own to drive but get behind our efforts to develop a vehicle drivable by a blind person for those who want that choice and all that comes with it. Maybe you don't mind sitting around waiting for a bus or a paratransit vehicle to show up but others live busy lives and would benefit from having their own transportation they can use at their convenience and not be limited to living in areas where public transportation is available. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sophie Trist" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 14:08:50 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:08:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus v. paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give me a Google car!! On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > > > Patrick, > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to > > where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > > before it was viable to the general public. > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close > > attention in the event something goes wrong. > > Carley, > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and > > safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough > > away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > > trains any time soon. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >> Mihalakis > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> Hi, List, > >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their > >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having > >> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about > >> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > >> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> So no, on the car! > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > going > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >>> wrong > >> with > >>> backing both cars. > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > >>> control > or > >>> a > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > >>> reader to > >> read > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream > >>> and > will > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > >>> mainstreem > and > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > screen. > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > >>> common tasks. > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > little > >>> or > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > country > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>> completely entered into the database. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sophie Trist > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>> superior. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be > >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will > >>> happen very soon. > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google > >>> would take the challenge. > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Justin Young > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > >>> project. > >>> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually > >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. > >>> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>> the company. > >>> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has > >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the > >>> members of the public, the DMV said. > >>> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>> Through > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more > >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state > >>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's > >>> autonomous car legislation. > >>> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>> Nevada, the DMV said. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > .net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 14:11:58 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:11:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <006601ce36be$88135ea0$983a1be0$@gmail.com> Columbbia south Carolina. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 7:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Kirt, I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone reposted here mentioned. Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might give me in this area. Just my thoughts, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > soon. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >> with >>> backing both cars. >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >>> a >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >> read >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>> tasks. >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >>> or >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> completely >>> entered into the database. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> superior. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> into account >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> if the >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> could even >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> the >>> challenge. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Justin Young >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> interesting >>> project. >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> after >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> nation's >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> in >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> the >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> the >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> went >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> lasers, >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> cars to >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> professor and >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> and >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> the >>> company. >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> director >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> the >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> other >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> Through >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> vehicle >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> Alex >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> car >>> legislation. >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> Nevada, >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 14:11:49 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:11:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <006401ce36be$82ff5220$88fdf660$@gmail.com> I'm with you chris. I live in Columbia. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 7:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Kirt, I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone reposted here mentioned. Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might give me in this area. Just my thoughts, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > soon. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >> with >>> backing both cars. >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >>> a >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >> read >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>> tasks. >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >>> or >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> completely >>> entered into the database. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> superior. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> into account >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> if the >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> could even >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> the >>> challenge. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Justin Young >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> interesting >>> project. >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> after >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> nation's >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> in >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> the >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> the >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> went >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> lasers, >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> cars to >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> professor and >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> and >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> the >>> company. >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> director >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> the >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> other >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> Through >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> vehicle >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> Alex >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> car >>> legislation. >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> Nevada, >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 14:17:59 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:17:59 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net><005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Yes I to agree. I my self live in a town and have to depend on a cab or someone like a sister or friend to drive me ware I need to go. I would love if I as a blind person was able to drive one day. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Kirt, I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone reposted here mentioned. Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might give me in this area. Just my thoughts, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > soon. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >> with >>> backing both cars. >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >>> a >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >> read >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>> tasks. >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >>> or >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> completely >>> entered into the database. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> superior. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> into account >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> if the >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> could even >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> the >>> challenge. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Justin Young >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> interesting >>> project. >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> after >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> nation's >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> in >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> the >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> the >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> went >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> lasers, >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> cars to >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> professor and >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> and >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> the >>> company. >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> director >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> the >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> other >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> Through >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> vehicle >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> Alex >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> car >>> legislation. >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> Nevada, >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 15:26:16 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:26:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <38C8A933-C477-4E6D-912A-353C8573FD67@gmail.com> Justin, I don't mean to be a killjoy but, as I recall, you are always the one telling people to do whatever works best for them. Here you are saying"isn't good"because it is too expensive? I don't mean to sound presumptuous or assume anything… But that almost sounds like a double standard to me. :-) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:17 AM, "Rania Ismail LMT" wrote: > Yes I to agree. I my self live in a town and have to depend on a cab or > someone like a sister or friend to drive me ware I need to go. > I would love if I as a blind person was able to drive one day. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher > nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >> in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >> at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >> I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >> soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >>> Mihalakis >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hi, List, >>> >>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >>> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >>> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >>> friend/driver cannot? >>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> So no, on the car! >>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >>> with >>>> backing both cars. >>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control > or >>>> a >>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >>> read >>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem > and >>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>>> tasks. >>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >>>> or >>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > country >>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>>> completely >>>> entered into the database. >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>> superior. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>>> into account >>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>>> if the >>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>>> could even >>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>>> the >>>> challenge. >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Justin Young >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>> interesting >>>> project. >>>> >>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>> after >>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>> nation's >>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>> >>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>>> in >>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>>> the >>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>> >>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>>> the >>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>>> went >>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>> lasers, >>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>>> cars to >>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>> >>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>> professor and >>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>>> and >>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>>> the >>>> company. >>>> >>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>> director >>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>>> the >>>> public, the DMV said. >>>> >>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>>> other >>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>> >>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>> Through >>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>> vehicle >>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>>> Alex >>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>>> car >>>> legislation. >>>> >>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>> Nevada, >>>> the DMV said. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 16:20:57 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:20:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net><005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com><-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid><7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hello, Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > > You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without > fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all > the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't > murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to > usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum > wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >> >> > Patrick, >> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> > viable to the general public. >> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >> > in the event something goes wrong. >> > Carley, >> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >> > soon. >> > Best, >> > Kirt >> > >> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> >> Mihalakis >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> Hi, List, >> >> >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> >> friend/driver cannot? >> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> So no, on the car! >> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Hello, >> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> >>> going >> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> >>> wrong >> >> with >> >>> backing both cars. >> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> >>> control or >> >>> a >> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader >> >>> to >> >> read >> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >> >>> will >> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem >> >>> and >> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >> >>> screen. >> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> >>> common >> >>> tasks. >> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> >>> little >> >>> or >> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> >>> country >> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> >>> completely >> >>> entered into the database. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >>> superior. >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Hello, >> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >>> into account >> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> >>> if the >> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >>> could even >> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> >>> the >> >>> challenge. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Justin Young >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >>> interesting >> >>> project. >> >>> >> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >>> after >> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> >>> nation's >> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >>> >> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> >>> in >> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >>> the >> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >>> >> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> >>> the >> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> >>> went >> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >>> lasers, >> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> >>> cars to >> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >> >>> >> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >>> professor and >> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> >>> and >> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> >>> the >> >>> company. >> >>> >> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >>> director >> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> >>> the >> >>> public, the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >>> other >> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >>> >> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >>> Through >> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >>> vehicle >> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> >>> Alex >> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> >>> car >> >>> legislation. >> >>> >> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >>> Nevada, >> >>> the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>> info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> >>> l.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 16:28:10 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:28:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Brandon, Give it ten or fifteen more years of widespread testing in all sorts of environments and I'll agree with you. I think it will probably happen...but, like, if this wa a computer program, we aren't even in public beta yet, and that's probably at least a few years down the line. Furthermore, I think it will take several years, at least, with the cars being widely driven in the public before society at large accepts us blind folks driving them. It probably will happen _eventually_, but I'm still not willing to bank on it. It'll be interesting to follow this as it develops over the next couple decades, though, and see what happens. Best, Kirt On 4/12/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never been > > in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like being a > passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings every few > minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom as > > the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all >> >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> >> wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >>> reposted here mentioned. >>> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >>> give me in this area. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Patrick, >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >>> > viable to the general public. >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >>> > in the event something goes wrong. >>> > Carley, >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >>> > soon. >>> > Best, >>> > Kirt >>> > >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >>> >> Mihalakis >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> >>> >> Hi, List, >>> >> >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >>> >> friend/driver cannot? >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> >> So no, on the car! >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>> >>> going >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >>> >>> wrong >>> >> with >>> >>> backing both cars. >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> >>> control or >>> >>> a >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader >>> >>> >>> >>> to >>> >> read >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >>> >>> will >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem >>> >>> >>> >>> and >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>> >>> screen. >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>> >>> common >>> >>> tasks. >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>> >>> little >>> >>> or >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >>> >>> country >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> >>> completely >>> >>> entered into the database. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> >>> superior. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> >>> into account >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> >>> if the >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> >>> could even >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> >>> the >>> >>> challenge. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Justin Young >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> >>> interesting >>> >>> project. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> >>> after >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> >>> nation's >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> >>> in >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> >>> the >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> >>> the >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> >>> went >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> >>> lasers, >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> >>> cars to >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> >>> professor and >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> >>> and >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> >>> the >>> >>> company. >>> >>> >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> >>> director >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> >>> the >>> >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> >>> other >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> >>> Through >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> >>> vehicle >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> >>> car >>> >>> legislation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> >>> Nevada, >>> >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>> info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> >> .com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 16:30:08 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:30:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: It's obvious I need to see what's going on with my keyboard. I'm pressing keys, but sometimes they aren't typing the letters, as you all just saw. My laptop didn't do this before, does anybody know what might be causing this really random and kind of irritating problem? On 4/12/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Brandon, > Give it ten or fifteen more years of widespread testing in all sorts > of environments and I'll agree with you. I think it will probably > happen...but, like, if this wa a computer program, we aren't even in > public beta yet, and that's probably at least a few years down the > line. Furthermore, I think it will take several years, at least, with > the cars being widely driven in the public before society at large > accepts us blind folks driving them. It probably will happen > _eventually_, but I'm still not willing to bank on it. It'll be > interesting to follow this as it develops over the next couple > decades, though, and see what happens. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/12/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events >> and >> shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >> been >> >> in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like being >> a >> passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings every few >> minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. >> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >> as >> >> the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >>> >>> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >>> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have >>> all >>> >>> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >>> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to >>> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher >>> nusbaum >>> >>> wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >>>> reposted here mentioned. >>>> >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >>>> give me in this area. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Patrick, >>>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >>>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >>>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >>>> > where >>>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>>> > probably >>>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >>>> > viable to the general public. >>>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >>>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>>> > attention >>>> > in the event something goes wrong. >>>> > Carley, >>>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >>>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >>>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >>>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >>>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >>>> > safe, >>>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away >>>> > that >>>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >>>> > soon. >>>> > Best, >>>> > Kirt >>>> > >>>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>> >> >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >>>> >> Mihalakis >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi, List, >>>> >> >>>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >>>> >> seem >>>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles >>>> >> personal >>>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, >>>> >> or >>>> >> friend/driver cannot? >>>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>> >> So no, on the car! >>>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hello, >>>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>>> >>> going >>>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >>>> >>> wrong >>>> >> with >>>> >>> backing both cars. >>>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>>> >>> control or >>>> >>> a >>>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>>> >>> reader >>>> >>> >>>> >>> to >>>> >> read >>>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >>>> >>> will >>>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>>> >>> mainstreem >>>> >>> >>>> >>> and >>>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>>> >>> screen. >>>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>>> >>> common >>>> >>> tasks. >>>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>>> >>> little >>>> >>> or >>>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >>>> >>> country >>>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>>> >>> completely >>>> >>> entered into the database. >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>> >>> superior. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hello, >>>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>>> >>> into account >>>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>>> >>> if the >>>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>>> >>> could even >>>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> challenge. >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>> From: Justin Young >>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>> >>> interesting >>>> >>> project. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>> >>> after >>>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>> >>> nation's >>>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>>> >>> in >>>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>>> >>> went >>>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>> >>> lasers, >>>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>>> >>> cars to >>>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>> >>> professor and >>>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>>> >>> and >>>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> company. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>> >>> director >>>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> public, the DMV said. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>>> >>> other >>>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>> >>> Through >>>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>> >>> vehicle >>>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>>> >>> Alex >>>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>>> >>> car >>>> >>> legislation. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>> >>> Nevada, >>>> >>> the DMV said. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for >>>> >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>> >>> l.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >>> for >>>> >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >>> for nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >>> for >>>> >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >>> for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >>> for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> >> .com >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 16:38:06 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:38:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412093711.01ec56b8@comcast.net> Hi, guys, Does that not deveat the purpose of said car and blind folks?CarAt 06:03 AM 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > > > > You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement > without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we > don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you > say the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the > driving blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the > freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: > >> Kirt, > >> > >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > >> reposted here mentioned. > >> > >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > >> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > >> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > >> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > >> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > >> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > >> give me in this area. > >> > >> Just my thoughts, > >> > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > >> > >> > Patrick, > >> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > >> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > >> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > >> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > >> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > >> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > >> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > >> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > >> > viable to the general public. > >> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > >> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > >> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > >> > in the event something goes wrong. > >> > Carley, > >> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > >> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > >> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > >> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > >> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > >> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > >> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > >> > soon. > >> > Best, > >> > Kirt > >> > > >> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >> >> Mihalakis > >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >> > >> >> Hi, List, > >> >> > >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > >> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > >> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > >> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > >> >> friend/driver cannot? > >> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> >> So no, on the car! > >> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >> >>> > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> > >> >>> Hello, > >> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is > already going > >> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is > nothing wrong > >> >> with > >> >>> backing both cars. > >> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their > own control or > >> >>> a > >> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a > screen reader to > >> >> read > >> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going > mainstream and will > >> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > mainstreem and > >> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws > and no screen. > >> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for > most common > >> >>> tasks. > >> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be > very little > >> >>> or > >> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long > driveway or country > >> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >> >>> completely > >> >>> entered into the database. > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> > >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> From: Sophie Trist > >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> > >> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >> >>> superior. > >> >>> > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> > >> >>> Hello, > >> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >> >>> into account > >> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >> >>> if the > >> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >> >>> could even > >> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >> >>> the > >> >>> challenge. > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> > >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> From: Justin Young > >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> > >> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >> >>> interesting > >> >>> project. > >> >>> > >> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >> >>> after > >> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >> >>> nation's > >> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >> >>> > >> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >> >>> in > >> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >> >>> the > >> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >> >>> > >> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >> >>> the > >> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >> >>> went > >> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >> >>> > >> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >> >>> lasers, > >> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >> >>> cars to > >> >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >> >>> > >> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >> >>> professor and > >> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >> >>> > >> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >> >>> and > >> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >> >>> the > >> >>> company. > >> >>> > >> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >> >>> director > >> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >> >>> the > >> >>> public, the DMV said. > >> >>> > >> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >> >>> other > >> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >> >>> > >> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >> >>> Through > >> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >> >>> vehicle > >> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >> >>> Alex > >> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >> >>> car > >> >>> legislation. > >> >>> > >> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >> >>> Nevada, > >> >>> the DMV said. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >>> info for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >> >>> l.com > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>> for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>> for nabs-l: > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> >>> r%40gmail.com > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> >>> r%40gmail.com > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> >> .com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From samnelson1 at verizon.net Fri Apr 12 16:54:43 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:54:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <002301ce379e$6f117aa0$4d346fe0$@verizon.net> Hi Peter, I agree with you about supporting something even if personally you may not use it. I doubt I'd ever have the money for this car, and I'd want to make sure it was as safe as possible before even being in it, but I totally support the car being out there for those that can get it and am behind anyone who wants one. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:04 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Good morning everyone, One thing we should keep in mind is that certain issues or choices may not be important to an individual but they are very significant to others. You may not want a car of your own to drive but get behind our efforts to develop a vehicle drivable by a blind person for those who want that choice and all that comes with it. Maybe you don't mind sitting around waiting for a bus or a paratransit vehicle to show up but others live busy lives and would benefit from having their own transportation they can use at their convenience and not be limited to living in areas where public transportation is available. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sophie Trist" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 17:08:15 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:08:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <005301ce36bd$ef738fd0$ce5aaf70$@gmail.com> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <005301ce36bd$ef738fd0$ce5aaf70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100558.01e8aee8@comcast.net> Good morning, Peter, Your message, here sounds to me so egocentric. I mean, as the Federation always seems to say, if the sometimes nusensical drab of waiting for transportation ain't broke, don't fix it. Isn't that what the Federation has said about accessable bills? Car07:07 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams wrote: >Or not having the ability to apply for jobs because of transportation. >That's one reason I came back to school. I' under employed due to >transportation. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:04 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Good morning everyone, > > One thing we should keep in mind is that certain issues or choices may >not be important to an individual but they are very significant to others. >You may not want a car of your own to drive but get behind our efforts to >develop a vehicle drivable by a blind person for those who want that choice >and all that comes with it. Maybe you don't mind sitting around waiting for >a bus or a paratransit vehicle to show up but others live busy lives and >would benefit from having their own transportation they can use at their >convenience and not be limited to living in areas where public >transportation is available. > >Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sophie Trist" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:44 AM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having >to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want >super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been >experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on >time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small >town kind of girl. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students >mailing listDate sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that >crap >to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of >ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles >personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, >train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta >be >a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust >us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >already going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >wrong with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >control or a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >reader to read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >very >important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream >and will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >mainstreem and >companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >little or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway >or country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 17:04:02 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:04:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> Good morning, Suzanne, So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams wrote: >No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus v. >paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have >been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more >hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been >both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I >almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only >be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to >work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches >my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get >anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give >me a Google car!! > > >On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Kirt, > > > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > > reposted here mentioned. > > > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > > give me in this area. > > > > Just my thoughts, > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > > wrote: > > > > > Patrick, > > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to > > > where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were > > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > > > before it was viable to the general public. > > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close > > > attention in the event something goes wrong. > > > Carley, > > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and > > > safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough > > > away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > > > trains any time soon. > > > Best, > > > Kirt > > > > > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > > >> Mihalakis > > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >> > > >> Hi, List, > > >> > > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > > >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their > > >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having > > >> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about > > >> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > > >> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you > > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? > > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > > >> So no, on the car! > > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> Hello, > > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > > going > > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > > >>> wrong > > >> with > > >>> backing both cars. > > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > > >>> control > > or > > >>> a > > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > > >>> reader to > > >> read > > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream > > >>> and > > will > > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > > >>> mainstreem > > and > > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > > screen. > > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > > >>> common tasks. > > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > > little > > >>> or > > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > > country > > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > > >>> completely entered into the database. > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Sophie Trist > > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > > >>> superior. > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> Hello, > > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > > >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be > > >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will > > >>> happen very soon. > > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > > >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google > > >>> would take the challenge. > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Justin Young > > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > > >>> project. > > >>> > > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > > >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday > > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > > >>> > > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > > >>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > >>> > > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > > >>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That > > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. > > >>> > > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > > >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually > > >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. > > >>> > > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > > >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > >>> > > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > > >>> the company. > > >>> > > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has > > >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the > > >>> members of the public, the DMV said. > > >>> > > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > > >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. > > >>> > > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > > >>> Through > > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > > >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more > > >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state > > >>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's > > >>> autonomous car legislation. > > >>> > > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > > >>> Nevada, the DMV said. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > > >>> l.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > >>> r%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for > > >> nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > >>> r%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for > > >> nabs-l: > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > > .net > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >> for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > 0gmail > > >> .com > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >> for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > > mail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Apr 12 17:14:10 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:14:10 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <002301ce379e$6f117aa0$4d346fe0$@verizon.net> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn>, <002301ce379e$6f117aa0$4d346fe0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Sam, and all! I'm saving up for that car! It would be a huge help with me traveling, and performing at different places! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 11:54 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi Peter, I agree with you about supporting something even if personally you may not use it. I doubt I'd ever have the money for this car, and I'd want to make sure it was as safe as possible before even being in it, but I totally support the car being out there for those that can get it and am behind anyone who wants one. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:04 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Good morning everyone, One thing we should keep in mind is that certain issues or choices may not be important to an individual but they are very significant to others. You may not want a car of your own to drive but get behind our efforts to develop a vehicle drivable by a blind person for those who want that choice and all that comes with it. Maybe you don't mind sitting around waiting for a bus or a paratransit vehicle to show up but others live busy lives and would benefit from having their own transportation they can use at their convenience and not be limited to living in areas where public transportation is available. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sophie Trist" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 17:14:32 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:14:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <005101ce36bd$c9565440$5c02fcc0$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <57462E1D2D4B454D9C484115DB9D863B@JohnPC> <005101ce36bd$c9565440$5c02fcc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100900.01e92b90@comcast.net> So often some of us are held fast by reliance of tefchnology which more often than not malfunctions. I have found it much more meaningful depending not on technology that can (and does) malfunction, leaving blinkie at a loss, and notions of independence in a state of free fall. but people instead. Independence accorded me by technology is still, as I see it, a litttle fake. Don need to make sure you have a back up system in the car, or a >default systemin case the computer breaks down. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >sandersj6 at att.net >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:25 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, >I would as well. >I'm 27 years of age and it takes me an hour to get to where I'm going on the >city bus. >And having to stand outside in the cold weather in the winter isn't good. >I would take a Google car over the city bus. >Sincerely, >John Sanders > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Suzanne Germano >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have >been riding the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more >hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been >both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I >almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only >be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to >work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches >my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get >anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give >me a Google car!! > > >On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Kirt, > > > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > > reposted here mentioned. > > > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > > give me in this area. > > > > Just my thoughts, > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > > wrote: > > > > > Patrick, > > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realistically > > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > > to drive. Where the Google car is now is probably comparable to where > > > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > > > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > > > viable to the general public. > > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > > > in the event something goes wrong. > > > Carley, > > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > > > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > > > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > > > soon. > > > Best, > > > Kirt > > > > > > On 4/10/13, Justin Williams wrote: > > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, driven. > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > > >> Mihalakis > > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >> > > >> Hi, List, > > >> > > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > > >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility toward their fellow > > >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > > >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > > >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > > >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > > >> friend/driver cannot? > > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > > >> So no, on the car! > > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > > >>> I can't wait to see these Google cars come out. It will be a major > > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> Hello, > > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > > going > > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > > >>> wrong > > >> with > > >>> backing both cars. > > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control > > or > > >>> a > > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader > > >>> to > > >> read > > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and > > will > > >>> have mainstream support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstream > > and > > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > > screen. > > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > > >>> common > > >>> tasks. > > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > > little > > >>> or > > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > > country > > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > > >>> completely > > >>> entered into the database. > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Sophie Trist > > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > > >>> them to back the Google car unless we can prove theirs is > > >>> superior. > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> Hello, > > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > > >>> into account > > >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > > >>> if the > > >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > > >>> could even > > >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > > >>> the > > >>> challenge. > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Justin Young > > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > > >>> interesting > > >>> project. > > >>> > > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > > >>> after > > >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > > >>> nation's > > >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > > >>> > > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > > >>> in > > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > > >>> the > > >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > >>> > > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > > >>> the > > >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > > >>> went > > >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > > >>> > > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > > >>> lasers, > > >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > > >>> cars to > > >>> help navigate, according to the company. > > >>> > > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > > >>> professor and > > >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > >>> > > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > > >>> and > > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > > >>> the > > >>> company. > > >>> > > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > > >>> director > > >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > > >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > > >>> the > > >>> public, the DMV said. > > >>> > > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > > >>> other > > >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > > >>> > > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > > >>> Through > > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > > >>> vehicle > > >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > > >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > > >>> Alex > > >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > > >>> car > > >>> legislation. > > >>> > > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > > >>> Nevada, > > >>> the DMV said. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > >>> info for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > > >>> l.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>> for nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > >>> r%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > >>> r%40gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > >> .com > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >om > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >om > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 17:24:50 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:24:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002301ce379e$6f117aa0$4d346fe0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Something else I just thought of now. If we, as blind people, are allowed to drive, then we'll be even closer to sighted people. Granted, we won't be DRIVING, but still. The idea is that one more barrier between the blind and sighted communities will be broken down within our lifetime. Patrick On 4/12/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Sam, and all! > I'm saving up for that car! > It would be a huge help with me traveling, and performing at different > places! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson > [samnelson1 at verizon.net] > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 11:54 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi Peter, > I agree with you about supporting something even if personally you may not > use it. I doubt I'd ever have the money for this car, and I'd want to make > sure it was as safe as possible before even being in it, but I totally > support the car being out there for those that can get it and am behind > anyone who wants one. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:04 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Good morning everyone, > > One thing we should keep in mind is that certain issues or choices may > not be important to an individual but they are very significant to others. > You may not want a car of your own to drive but get behind our efforts to > develop a vehicle drivable by a blind person for those who want that choice > and all that comes with it. Maybe you don't mind sitting around waiting for > a bus or a paratransit vehicle to show up but others live busy lives and > would benefit from having their own transportation they can use at their > convenience and not be limited to living in areas where public > transportation is available. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sophie Trist" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:44 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having > to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want > super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been > experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on > time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small > town kind of girl. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > ,National Association of Blind Students > mailing list Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi, List, > > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > seem > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that > crap > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of > ever > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles > personal > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, > train, or > friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta > be > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > So no, on the car! > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a > major > milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust > us > to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he > will > never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello, > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is > already going > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > wrong with > backing both cars. > The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > control or a > computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > reader to read > a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is > very > important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream > and will > have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > mainstreem and > companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > screen. > Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > common > tasks. > If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > little or > no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway > or country > road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > completely > entered into the database. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > superior. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello, > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > into account > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > if the > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > could even > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > the > challenge. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Young > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > interesting > project. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > after > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > nation's > first autonomous vehicle license. > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > in > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > the > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > the > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > went > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > lasers, > and a database of information collected from manually driven > cars to > help navigate, according to the company. > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > professor and > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > and > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > the > company. > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > director > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > the > public, the DMV said. > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > other > states, including Google's home state of California. > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > Through > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > vehicle > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > Alex > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > car > legislation. > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > Nevada, > the DMV said. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co > mcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Apr 12 17:27:12 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:27:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I feel "my blind ass" is not limited on how much I can earn, so yes I may one day be able to afford this car. And if I had the freedom to get anywhere then I am more likely to earn more money because I can actually chose where I want to work. Salaries for Software engineers a good plus my fiance's income. I try not to look at life with limitations. On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Brandon Keith Biggs < brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >>> reposted here mentioned. >>> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >>> give me in this area. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Patrick, >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >>> > viable to the general public. >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >>> > in the event something goes wrong. >>> > Carley, >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >>> > soon. >>> > Best, >>> > Kirt >>> > >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>> On Behalf Of Carly >>> >> Mihalakis >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> >>> >> Hi, List, >>> >> >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >>> >> friend/driver cannot? >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> >> So no, on the car! >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>> >>> going >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >>> >>> wrong >>> >> with >>> >>> backing both cars. >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> >>> control or >>> >>> a >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader >>> >>> to >>> >> read >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >>> >>> will >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>> mainstreem >>> and >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>> >>> screen. >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>> >>> common >>> >>> tasks. >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>> >>> little >>> >>> or >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >>> >>> country >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> >>> completely >>> >>> entered into the database. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> >>> superior. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> >>> into account >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> >>> if the >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> >>> could even >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> >>> the >>> >>> challenge. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Justin Young >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> >>> interesting >>> >>> project. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> >>> after >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> >>> nation's >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> >>> in >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> >>> the >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> >>> the >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> >>> went >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> >>> lasers, >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> >>> cars to >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> >>> professor and >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> >>> and >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> >>> the >>> >>> company. >>> >>> >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> >>> director >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> >>> the >>> >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> >>> other >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> >>> Through >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> >>> vehicle >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> >>> car >>> >>> legislation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> >>> Nevada, >>> >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>> info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> jty727%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>> >> .com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Apr 12 17:31:11 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:31:11 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> , Message-ID: Great comeback, Susanne! As for Carly, and some others, I guess people never learn! As my old 10th grade English teacher said, "When you curse, it shows that you have a limited vocabulary." Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Suzanne Germano [sgermano at asu.edu] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I feel "my blind ass" is not limited on how much I can earn, so yes I may one day be able to afford this car. And if I had the freedom to get anywhere then I am more likely to earn more money because I can actually chose where I want to work. Salaries for Software engineers a good plus my fiance's income. I try not to look at life with limitations. On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Brandon Keith Biggs < brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >>> reposted here mentioned. >>> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >>> give me in this area. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Patrick, >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >>> > viable to the general public. >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >>> > in the event something goes wrong. >>> > Carley, >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >>> > soon. >>> > Best, >>> > Kirt >>> > >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>> On Behalf Of Carly >>> >> Mihalakis >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> >>> >> Hi, List, >>> >> >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >>> >> friend/driver cannot? >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> >> So no, on the car! >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>> >>> going >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >>> >>> wrong >>> >> with >>> >>> backing both cars. >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> >>> control or >>> >>> a >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader >>> >>> to >>> >> read >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >>> >>> will >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>> mainstreem >>> and >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>> >>> screen. >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>> >>> common >>> >>> tasks. >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>> >>> little >>> >>> or >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >>> >>> country >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> >>> completely >>> >>> entered into the database. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> >>> superior. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> >>> into account >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> >>> if the >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> >>> could even >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> >>> the >>> >>> challenge. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Justin Young >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> >>> interesting >>> >>> project. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> >>> after >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> >>> nation's >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> >>> in >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> >>> the >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> >>> the >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> >>> went >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> >>> lasers, >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> >>> cars to >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> >>> professor and >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> >>> and >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> >>> the >>> >>> company. >>> >>> >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> >>> director >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> >>> the >>> >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> >>> other >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> >>> Through >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> >>> vehicle >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> >>> car >>> >>> legislation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> >>> Nevada, >>> >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>> info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> jty727%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>> >> .com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 17:32:18 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:32:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <1799315182319119008@unknownmsgid> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <1799315182319119008@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412102407.01c0e048@comcast.net> Hi, Chris, Sighted people in my experience regard they're cars as part of them, I know. Like, you should have seen my old Dad when he got stuck on the subway after the doors closed at the line's beginning! Can you say deer in the headlights? And Chris, there are only you know, nuts here in Berkeley who are really devoted to reducing their carbon footprint who take the bus exclusively. 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >Amen, Sophie! You could rely on a friend, family member, or other >hired driver for your transportation, but this doesn't always work >because you need to juggle their schedule with yours. Carly, how many >sighted people have you known to rely solely on public transportation >in your area? Granted, many people in NYC don't have cars. But this is >due to the layout of the city, which makes it more efficient to use >public transportation. In most cities, however, many people still use >cars to travel in the city, despite the reliability of the transit >system. This is definitely true in Baltimore and even in Washington, >DC. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Sophie Trist wrote: > > > Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having > to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want > super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been > experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on > time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town > kind of girl. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Carly Mihalakis > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > ,National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Hi, List, > > > > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > > friend/driver cannot? > > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > > So no, on the car! > > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > > milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > > sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > > to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > > never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > > them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Hello, > > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going > > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > wrong with > > backing both cars. > > The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a > > computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > reader to read > > a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > > important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will > > have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and > > companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. > > Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common > > tasks. > > If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or > > no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country > > road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely > > entered into the database. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sophie Trist > > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > > self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > > them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > > superior. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Hello, > > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > > into account > > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > > if the > > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > > could even > > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > > the > > challenge. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Justin Young > > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > > interesting > > project. > > > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > > after > > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > > nation's > > first autonomous vehicle license. > > > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > > in > > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > > the > > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > > the > > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > > went > > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > > lasers, > > and a database of information collected from manually driven > > cars to > > help navigate, according to the company. > > > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > > professor and > > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > > and > > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > > the > > company. > > > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > > director > > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > > the > > public, the DMV said. > > > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > > other > > states, including Google's home state of California. > > > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > > Through > > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > > vehicle > > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > > Alex > > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > > car > > legislation. > > > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > > Nevada, > > the DMV said. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > > l.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > r%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > r%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co > > mcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > r%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Apr 12 17:33:17 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:33:17 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> , Message-ID: BTW, Suzanne, I'm sorry for misspelling your name. I should listen to characters more, when using Jaws. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Suzanne Germano [sgermano at asu.edu] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I feel "my blind ass" is not limited on how much I can earn, so yes I may one day be able to afford this car. And if I had the freedom to get anywhere then I am more likely to earn more money because I can actually chose where I want to work. Salaries for Software engineers a good plus my fiance's income. I try not to look at life with limitations. On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Brandon Keith Biggs < brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >>> reposted here mentioned. >>> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >>> give me in this area. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Patrick, >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >>> > viable to the general public. >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >>> > in the event something goes wrong. >>> > Carley, >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >>> > soon. >>> > Best, >>> > Kirt >>> > >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >>> On Behalf Of Carly >>> >> Mihalakis >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> >>> >> Hi, List, >>> >> >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >>> >> friend/driver cannot? >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> >> So no, on the car! >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>> >>> going >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >>> >>> wrong >>> >> with >>> >>> backing both cars. >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> >>> control or >>> >>> a >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader >>> >>> to >>> >> read >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >>> >>> will >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>> mainstreem >>> and >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>> >>> screen. >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>> >>> common >>> >>> tasks. >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>> >>> little >>> >>> or >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >>> >>> country >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>> >>> completely >>> >>> entered into the database. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> >>> superior. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> >>> into account >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>> >>> if the >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> >>> could even >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> >>> the >>> >>> challenge. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Justin Young >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>> >>> interesting >>> >>> project. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> >>> after >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> >>> nation's >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>> >>> in >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> >>> the >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>> >>> the >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>> >>> went >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> >>> lasers, >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> >>> cars to >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> >>> professor and >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>> >>> and >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>> >>> the >>> >>> company. >>> >>> >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> >>> director >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>> >>> the >>> >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> >>> other >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> >>> Through >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> >>> vehicle >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>> >>> car >>> >>> legislation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> >>> Nevada, >>> >>> the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>> info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> jty727%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> brandonkeithb >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>> >> .com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 17:39:49 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:39:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412103457.02001c10@comcast.net> Good morning, Josh, It's not a matter of vocabulary but passion! Have you or your English teacher ever heard of it? At 10:31 AM 4/12/2013, you wrote: >Great comeback, Susanne! >As for Carly, and some others, I guess people never learn! >As my old 10th grade English teacher said, "When you curse, it shows >that you have a limited vocabulary." >Blessings, Joshua >________________________________________ >From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Suzanne >Germano [sgermano at asu.edu] >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:27 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >I feel "my blind ass" is not limited on how much I can earn, so yes I may >one day be able to afford this car. And if I had the freedom to get >anywhere then I am more likely to earn more money because I can actually >chose where I want to work. Salaries for Software engineers a good plus my >fiance's income. I try not to look at life with limitations. > > >On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Brandon Keith Biggs < >brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hello, > > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and > > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never > > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like > > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings > > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers > constantly face. > > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom > > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >> > >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without > >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all > >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't > >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to > >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Kirt, > >>> > >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > >>> reposted here mentioned. > >>> > >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > >>> give me in this area. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts, > >>> > >>> Chris Nusbaum > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Patrick, > >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where > >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably > >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > >>> > viable to the general public. > >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention > >>> > in the event something goes wrong. > >>> > Carley, > >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, > >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that > >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > >>> > soon. > >>> > Best, > >>> > Kirt > >>> > > >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >>> >> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>> >> From: nabs-l > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] > >>> On Behalf Of Carly > >>> >> Mihalakis > >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >> > >>> >> Hi, List, > >>> >> > >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > >>> >> friend/driver cannot? > >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >>> >> So no, on the car! > >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Hello, > >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > >>> >>> going > >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >>> >>> wrong > >>> >> with > >>> >>> backing both cars. > >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> > >>> control or > >>> >>> a > >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader > >>> >>> to > >>> >> read > >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and > >>> >>> will > >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > >>> mainstreem >>> and > >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>> > >>> screen. > >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>> > >>> common > >>> >>> tasks. > >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > >>> >>> little > >>> >>> or > >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > >>> >>> country > >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>> >>> completely > >>> >>> entered into the database. > >>> >>> Thanks, > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist > >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>> >>> superior. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >>> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Hello, > >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>> >>> into account > >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >>> >>> if the > >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>> >>> could even > >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> challenge. > >>> >>> Thanks, > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> >>> From: Justin Young > >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >>> >>> interesting > >>> >>> project. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>> >>> after > >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>> >>> nation's > >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >>> >>> in > >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >>> >>> went > >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>> >>> lasers, > >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >>> >>> cars to > >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>> >>> professor and > >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >>> >>> and > >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> company. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>> >>> director > >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> public, the DMV said. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>> >>> other > >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>> >>> Through > >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>> >>> vehicle > >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >>> >>> Alex > >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >>> >>> car > >>> >>> legislation. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>> >>> Nevada, > >>> >>> the DMV said. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> >>> info for > >>> >>> nabs-l: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > jty727%40gmai > >>> >>> l.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>> for > >>> >>> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > brandonkeithb > >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>> for nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > sweetpeareade > >>> >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> >>> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > brandonkeithb > >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > sweetpeareade > >>> >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > carlymih%40comcast.net > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> >> .com > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>> > > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> > nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> > carlymih%40comcast.net > >>> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >> > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Apr 12 17:45:04 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:45:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: No worries on the spelling Joshua On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > BTW, Suzanne, I'm sorry for misspelling your name. > I should listen to characters more, when using Jaws. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Suzanne Germano [ > sgermano at asu.edu] > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I feel "my blind ass" is not limited on how much I can earn, so yes I may > one day be able to afford this car. And if I had the freedom to get > anywhere then I am more likely to earn more money because I can actually > chose where I want to work. Salaries for Software engineers a good plus my > fiance's income. I try not to look at life with limitations. > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Brandon Keith Biggs < > brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hello, > > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events > and > > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never > > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like > > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings > > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly > face. > > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom > > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my > opinion. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >> > >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without > >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have > all > >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't > >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to > >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher > nusbaum > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Kirt, > >>> > >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > >>> reposted here mentioned. > >>> > >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > >>> give me in this area. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts, > >>> > >>> Chris Nusbaum > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Patrick, > >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to > where > >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were > probably > >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was > >>> > viable to the general public. > >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close > attention > >>> > in the event something goes wrong. > >>> > Carley, > >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and > safe, > >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away > that > >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time > >>> > soon. > >>> > Best, > >>> > Kirt > >>> > > >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >>> >> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org< > nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org>] > >>> On Behalf Of Carly > >>> >> Mihalakis > >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >> > >>> >> Hi, List, > >>> >> > >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > seem > >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles > personal > >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, > or > >>> >> friend/driver cannot? > >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >>> >> So no, on the car! > >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Hello, > >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > >>> >>> going > >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >>> >>> wrong > >>> >> with > >>> >>> backing both cars. > >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> > >>> control or > >>> >>> a > >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > reader > >>> >>> to > >>> >> read > >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and > >>> >>> will > >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > >>> mainstreem >>> and > >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > >>> > >>> screen. > >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > >>> > >>> common > >>> >>> tasks. > >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > >>> >>> little > >>> >>> or > >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > >>> >>> country > >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>> >>> completely > >>> >>> entered into the database. > >>> >>> Thanks, > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist > >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>> >>> superior. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> >>> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Hello, > >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>> >>> into account > >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >>> >>> if the > >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>> >>> could even > >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> challenge. > >>> >>> Thanks, > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>> >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> >>> From: Justin Young > >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >>> >>> interesting > >>> >>> project. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>> >>> after > >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>> >>> nation's > >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >>> >>> in > >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >>> >>> went > >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>> >>> lasers, > >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >>> >>> cars to > >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>> >>> professor and > >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >>> >>> and > >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> company. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>> >>> director > >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> public, the DMV said. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>> >>> other > >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>> >>> Through > >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>> >>> vehicle > >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >>> >>> Alex > >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >>> >>> car > >>> >>> legislation. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>> >>> Nevada, > >>> >>> the DMV said. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> >>> info for > >>> >>> nabs-l: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> jty727%40gmai< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai> > >>> >>> l.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>> for > >>> >>> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> brandonkeithb< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb> > >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>> for nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> sweetpeareade< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade> > >>> >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> >>> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> brandonkeithb< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb> > >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> sweetpeareade< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade> > >>> >>> r%40gmail.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> carlymih%40comcast.net< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> justin.williams2%40gmail< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > > >>> >> .com > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> >> nabs-l: > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > >>> > > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> > nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>> carlymih%40comcast.net< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >>> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > > >> > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 18:20:23 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:20:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and Independence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not mad at all, actually. you are simply defending your beliefs. That's an honorable thing to do. You're right, no one is trying to put up a wall between me and the NFB. however, I can't pretend that I agree with the way the speech was written just for the sake of keeping the peace. That's not how I am, although people tell me I should be more dignified. That's beside the point, though. There probably are a lot of gray areas within the NFB, but they're rarely discussed. Perhaps if I attended their meetings I would see more of them, but when something is written down, like this speech, it kind of does give the impression that the person is laying down the law. Likewise, I can see how, from my writing, you thought I was laying down the law. In writing, there's really no room for second guessing. On 4/12/13, David Andrews wrote: > Desiree: > > I would like to say a few things here, and hope I don't make you too > mad. That is not my intention. > > First, there is a wall between you and the NFB, if you put one > up. We are not trying to do so. > > You may be over analyzing this stuff -- but maybe not. The language, > norms, procedures and approaches in any field change over time. This > speech was written 20 years ago. Today it is commonplace to > acknowledge that we are all different, which we are, etc. Twenty > years ago, people wouldn't have been as sensitive to such a > thing. This was a speech and you make generalizations, to a certain > extent, to explain stuff and to reach a lot of people. This has been > an influential and powerful speech for some years. > > You are asking us to acknowledge that it is a grey world out there, > not black and white, that people are different. I would agree but I > am not sure you give us the same courtesy. You paint us with black > and white pictures and then reject us. > > Dave > > At 11:47 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote: >>Since you brought up the Nature of Independence, I would like to get >>some perspective on something that I honestly found to be quite >>offensive about the wording of that particular speech. >>When Kenneth Jernigan made this speech, he was addressing several >>letters from students who were attending the Louisiana Center. when he >>spoke of true independence, he implied strongly that although he was >>free to make the choices he made, which empowered him and made him >>independent, the students were incapable of making such decisions for >>themselves while they were in training. he basically said that >>students pass through phases as they learn blindness skills. The first >>is timidity and overcautiousness, to the point where the student >>doesn't trust themselves or their judgments; the second is >>aggressiveness, recklessness, and arrogance, where they defiantly >>refuse all vestiges of assistance to "prove" their independence, and, >>hopefully, the third is a balance between the two. Is this a fair >>summation? I believe it is. >>If so, I have a real problem with the notion that he is so sure that >>every student is alike, that every person who comes into training is >>hopeless, then completely changes into their alter-ego. First of all, >>for those of us who are congenitally blind, we have had time to adjust >>to our blindness. While some people may have unhealthy attitudes about >>it, the truth is, if you've been blind all your life, you can't >>exactly deny that. I feel that being condescending towards one's state >>of mind is not the way to win anyone over. I think that most people >>are rational enough to know when it's appropriate for them to ask for >>sighted guide, with some gentle guidance and prodding, of course. For >>a newly blind individual, this changes somewhat, but the truth is that >>everyone is different, and painting all students out to be, for lack >>of a better phrase, rebellious fools, isn't doing the NFB's image any >>favors. Students are people, too. Just because they're students >>doesn't make them any less human, at least, it shouldn't. And all >>humans have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Some may very >>well be as Jernigan described. Others can think through problems and >>situations logically as they arise. Still others may be overcome by >>emotion in unfamiliar situations, but once they realize they can do >>something a few times, their confidence may grow, but not to the point >>where their egoes inflate exponentially. >>I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all of this. I hope someone gives me >>a swift kick if I am. But if I'm not...if I truly read what I thought >>I did, there will always be a wall between me and the NFB. I mean, >>what if a newly blind individual is 45 years old and coming in for >>training? Do people really think that such a person will react in such >>a juvenile fashion? >> >>On 4/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > Kenneth Jernigan, who was president of the NFB for 18 years and had a >> > huge influence on the organization's philosophical approach to >> > blindness, wrote a speech titled "The Nature of Independence" which is >> > available on the NFB website. I won't post it here since it is quite >> > long, but will just summarize what I got out of hearing it. Jernigan >> > talked about times when he, as a blind man, would walk with sighted >> > guides, such as holding the arm of his secretary while walking with >> > her and in conversation. He said that he did this from time to time, >> > not because he needed the help, but because it was more convenient for >> > both of them. He stated that one can accept assistance from others and >> > still remain independent. Specifically, he defined independence as: >> > The ability to travel whenever you want, wherever you want, with a >> > minimum of inconvenience to yourself and others. >> > >> > To me, that definition sounds similar to those that some of you are >> > espousing. I think before we bash the NFB too much on this point, we >> > should bear in mind where Jernigan was coming from. In fact, I think >> > most if not all of us in the NFB agree that independence is the >> > freedom to choose when, and what kind of help, to get. We can all be a >> > little better about not judging others who make different choices than >> > what we would make, and some judgmental folks have tainted the NFB's >> > reputation in this regard. But I really think we agree more than we >> > disagree here. >> > I believe that all people can seek help with things and still remain >> > independent. But I also think that being blind, by itself, shouldn't >> > change our standard of independence. I personally like doing the same >> > kinds of things that other 28-year-olds do, so I don't want to be >> > called super-blind because I do typical things like living with my >> > fiancee and sharing cooking duties with him, or walking independently >> > around campus. And I think that whenever we do accept help with >> > something, there is always a trade-off where we have to give up >> > something. Sometimes we have to pay for help, like paying a taxi >> > driver or a restaurant to cook our food. Sometimes it's a time >> > sacrifice, like having to wait for a ride or a guide in order to go >> > somewhere. Other times the sacrifices are more subtle losses of >> > freedom, like if we choose to live somewhere that makes rules about >> > whether or not we can have overnight guests. Sometimes the help we get >> > is worth the sacrifice, but other times it's not, because the >> > inconvenience on ourselves or others is too great. Finally, I believe >> > that in order to make knowledgeable decisions about what we really >> > need help doing, and what we don't, we should get decent training. If >> > someone always has another person do their laundry because they never >> > tried doing it themself, they will never know how easy it might be for >> > them. If they try it, they might discover that actually it's not worth >> > the sacrifice and that they prefer doing it themself, but we never >> > know these things until we try them. >> > I personally think there are many sighted people, and some blind >> > people, who would benefit greatly from a supported living community >> > like Friedman Place. Offering these communities could really help make >> > a dent in national crises like homelessness, poverty and ccrime. I >> > think there are many other populations in this country who need a >> > place like Friedman far more than blind people do. And while I don't >> > fault those who choose to go to Friedman, I would submit that there >> > are sacrifices and trade-offs involved. You get low-cost housing, >> > cooked food and companionship, but you lose control over most of your >> > spending money, have to sign out to leave the premises and the hot >> > date you bring home has to pass a background check. I think these are >> > small sacrifices, but I also think that living on one's own, and >> > especially getting training in daily living skills and job skills, >> > gives us the flexibility to handle all kinds of life situations, >> > either on our own or with assistance. >> > Best, >> > Arielle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 18:43:33 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:43:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412102407.01c0e048@comcast.net> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <1799315182319119008@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412102407.01c0e048@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1925784765294653254@unknownmsgid> Good point, Carly. That's not just in Berkeley, by the way. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Chris, > > Sighted people in my experience regard they're cars as part of them, I know. Like, you should have seen my old Dad when he got stuck on the subway after the doors closed at the line's beginning! Can you say deer in the headlights? > And Chris, there are only you know, nuts here in Berkeley who are really devoted to reducing their carbon footprint who take the bus exclusively. 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> Amen, Sophie! You could rely on a friend, family member, or other >> hired driver for your transportation, but this doesn't always work >> because you need to juggle their schedule with yours. Carly, how many >> sighted people have you known to rely solely on public transportation >> in your area? Granted, many people in NYC don't have cars. But this is >> due to the layout of the city, which makes it more efficient to use >> public transportation. In most cities, however, many people still use >> cars to travel in the city, despite the reliability of the transit >> system. This is definitely true in Baltimore and even in Washington, >> DC. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> > Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Carly Mihalakis > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > Hi, List, >> > >> > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> > friend/driver cannot? >> > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> > So no, on the car! >> > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> > milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> > sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> > to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> > never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> > them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > Hello, >> > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >> > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong with >> > backing both cars. >> > The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or a >> > computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to read >> > a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> > important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >> > have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >> > companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >> > Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >> > tasks. >> > If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or >> > no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >> > road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely >> > entered into the database. >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Sophie Trist >> > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> > self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> > them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> > superior. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > > > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > Hello, >> > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> > into account >> > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> > if the >> > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> > could even >> > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> > the >> > challenge. >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Justin Young >> > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> > interesting >> > project. >> > >> > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> > after >> > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> > nation's >> > first autonomous vehicle license. >> > >> > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> > in >> > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> > the >> > Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> > >> > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> > the >> > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> > went >> > into effect on March 1, 2012. >> > >> > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> > lasers, >> > and a database of information collected from manually driven >> > cars to >> > help navigate, according to the company. >> > >> > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> > professor and >> > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> > >> > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> > and >> > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> > the >> > company. >> > >> > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> > director >> > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> > the >> > public, the DMV said. >> > >> > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> > other >> > states, including Google's home state of California. >> > >> > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> > Through >> > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> > vehicle >> > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> > Alex >> > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> > car >> > legislation. >> > >> > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> > Nevada, >> > the DMV said. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> > l.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > iggs%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > r%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > iggs%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > r%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >> > mcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > r%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From jeffc4 at lavabit.com Fri Apr 12 18:47:45 2013 From: jeffc4 at lavabit.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:47:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help Message-ID: <000001ce37ae$395d3510$ac179f30$@com> Hi all, Thanks Katie and Chris, well I got it to work, but when I go to the mail folders list, and I see the favorites read only edit then I hit down arrow, I says inbox, and what I found was that for some reason, it is putting my email from this account, and the email from my radio station email, it is putting them in the same inbox, so I don't know if I was to get an email from the station email if it came from that email or if it came from my personal email. thanks Jeff Crouch ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ internet radio station- http://wnntech.com twitter- kd8qiq From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 18:50:18 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:50:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412115004.01e54a40@comcast.net> Say it, Peter!At 12:39 PM 4/11/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Robert, > This only proves my point. The autopilot is designed to be quickly >and easily turned off when human intervention, and sight, is needed. >It's designed for "the technology to disappear", as the article so >aptly puts it; this thing is designed so that a sighted driver can let >the car do the driving but still be on the lookout to take over when >needed. That's a very long way from something we could use; like I >said, give it fifteen or twenty years and I might be able to drive one >of these things, if I have a steady job and at least a six-figure >income. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > Sorry, my laptop keyboard is acting funy today and I forgot to proofread. > > > > On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Carley, > >> You live in Boston. I rest my case. > >> Patrick, > >> Fair enough; I'll happily concede that, when the technology is > >> working, it's probably much safer than human drivers. Still, even the > >> most durable computer will break occasionally. The best technology, > >> while built to last, can't be guaranteed not to break or crash at a > >> critical moment; if you've ever lost a peper you were working on and > >> forgot to save, or had your hard drive die, or your phone break, or > >> your cane snap, or whatever, you'll know what I'm talking about. > >> Best, > >> Kirt > >> > >> On 4/11/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: > >>> I remember hearing something on the radio recently that the NTSB is > >>> totally in favor of self-driving cars because they're a lot safer than > >>> human drivers. From what I've experienced as a pedestrian dealing with > >>> crazy drivers, I have to agree! :) > >>> Patrick > >>> > >>> On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>>> Kaitie, > >>>> Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most > >>>> libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly > >>>> trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for > >>>> the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public > >>>> licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people > >>>> will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, > >>>> when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a > >>>> qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually > >>>> intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally > >>>> blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling > >>>> down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, > >>>> I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a > >>>> looooooooong way off. > >>>> Best, > >>>> Kirt > >>>> > >>>> On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >>>>> Good afternoon everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> Last night we had some friends over to discuss business > >>>>> opportunities. > >>>>> Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if > >>>>> you > >>>>> had > >>>>> > >>>>> an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the > >>>>> blind > >>>>> > >>>>> drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the > >>>>> whole > >>>>> > >>>>> time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a > >>>>> vehicle > >>>>> once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind > >>>>> for > >>>>> perches. We also told them that that same technology could with > >>>>> modification > >>>>> > >>>>> enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and > >>>>> would > >>>>> give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. > >>>>> > >>>>> These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one > >>>>> of > >>>>> them > >>>>> > >>>>> it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of > >>>>> individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people > >>>>> should > >>>>> avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable > >>>>> us > >>>>> to > >>>>> meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. > >>>>> We're > >>>>> looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position > >>>>> financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" > >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio > >>>>> in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together > >>>>> and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > >>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into > >>>>>> account > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could > >>>>>> even > >>>>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the > >>>>>> challenge. > >>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Justin Young > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > >>>>>> project. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>>>>>> after > >>>>>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>>>>>> nation's > >>>>>>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the > >>>>>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the > >>>>>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >>>>>>> went > >>>>>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>>>>>> lasers, > >>>>>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to > >>>>>>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the > >>>>>>> company. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director > >>>>>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>>>>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the > >>>>>>> public, the DMV said. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other > >>>>>>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>>>>>> Through > >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>>>>>> vehicle > >>>>>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>>>>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex > >>>>>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car > >>>>>>> legislation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>>>>>> Nevada, > >>>>>>> the DMV said. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Kaiti > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 18:52:40 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:52:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Microsoft office 2007 help In-Reply-To: <000001ce37ae$395d3510$ac179f30$@com> References: <000001ce37ae$395d3510$ac179f30$@com> Message-ID: <-4930461363585892592@unknownmsgid> Maybe it combines all emails into one inbox. There may be a way to change this in settings, but I'm not sure what it is. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Jeff Crouch wrote: > Hi all, > > > > Thanks Katie and Chris, well I got it to work, but when I go to the mail > folders list, and I see the favorites read only edit then I hit down arrow, > I says inbox, and what I found was that for some reason, it is putting my > email from this account, and the email from my radio station email, it is > putting them in the same inbox, so I don't know if I was to get an email > from the station email if it came from that email or if it came from my > personal email. > > > > thanks > > > > Jeff Crouch > > ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ > > internet radio station- http://wnntech.com > > twitter- kd8qiq > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Apr 12 18:57:06 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:57:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <1925784765294653254@unknownmsgid> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <1799315182319119008@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412102407.01c0e048@comcast.net> <1925784765294653254@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I think if it is convenient people who can drive will take the bus but no one in thier right mind would choose a 2.5 hr commute plus walking at each end over a 20 minute drive On Friday, April 12, 2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Good point, Carly. That's not just in Berkeley, by the way. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Hi, Chris, > > > > Sighted people in my experience regard they're cars as part of them, I > know. Like, you should have seen my old Dad when he got stuck on the subway > after the doors closed at the line's beginning! Can you say deer in the > headlights? > > And Chris, there are only you know, nuts here in Berkeley who are really > devoted to reducing their carbon footprint who take the bus exclusively. > 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: > >> Amen, Sophie! You could rely on a friend, family member, or other > >> hired driver for your transportation, but this doesn't always work > >> because you need to juggle their schedule with yours. Carly, how many > >> sighted people have you known to rely solely on public transportation > >> in your area? Granted, many people in NYC don't have cars. But this is > >> due to the layout of the city, which makes it more efficient to use > >> public transportation. In most cities, however, many people still use > >> cars to travel in the city, despite the reliability of the transit > >> system. This is definitely true in Baltimore and even in Washington, > >> DC. > >> > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Sophie Trist > wrote: > >> > >> > Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to > rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super > reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with > the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live > in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Carly Mihalakis >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing list< > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > > >> > Hi, List, > >> > > >> > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > >> > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > >> > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > >> > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >> > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > >> > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > >> > friend/driver cannot? > >> > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> > So no, on the car! > >> > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >> > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >> > milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >> > sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >> > to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >> > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >> > never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >> > them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > > >> > Hello, > >> > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > going > >> > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > wrong with > >> > backing both cars. > >> > The big debate will > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 12 19:29:28 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 12:29:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5166AD5E.80603@pcdesk.net> <008e01ce3601$56086120$02192360$@gmail.com> <5166D8FA.2090304@gmail.com> <08DA6B7AEDB44536998755B22AA4ADD7@BrandonsLaptop2> <006a01ce36da$39f26380$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412122900.01bff840@comcast.net> Hi, Kirt, I live in Berkeley, not Boston. CarAt 12:32 PM 4/11/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Sorry, my laptop keyboard is acting funy today and I forgot to proofread. > >On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > Carley, > > You live in Boston. I rest my case. > > Patrick, > > Fair enough; I'll happily concede that, when the technology is > > working, it's probably much safer than human drivers. Still, even the > > most durable computer will break occasionally. The best technology, > > while built to last, can't be guaranteed not to break or crash at a > > critical moment; if you've ever lost a peper you were working on and > > forgot to save, or had your hard drive die, or your phone break, or > > your cane snap, or whatever, you'll know what I'm talking about. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/11/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: > >> I remember hearing something on the radio recently that the NTSB is > >> totally in favor of self-driving cars because they're a lot safer than > >> human drivers. From what I've experienced as a pedestrian dealing with > >> crazy drivers, I have to agree! :) > >> Patrick > >> > >> On 4/11/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>> Kaitie, > >>> Give it fifteen years, at least. Licensing these cars in the most > >>> libertarian of our United States, so that companies with highly > >>> trained employees can test them is a far, far cry from a license for > >>> the general public. Even five or ten years down the road when public > >>> licenses are finally deemed safe, only the absolute wealthiest people > >>> will probably be able to afford them. Even a few years after that, > >>> when the price will have probably dropped, sight will probably be a > >>> qualification for these licenses so that the driver can manually > >>> intervene in the event of technological error. Imagine being totally > >>> blind and having your car's guidence computer crash while traveling > >>> down the interstate at 70 + mph...I'm not saying it will never happen, > >>> I think it will probably be in our lifetime but it's still a > >>> looooooooong way off. > >>> Best, > >>> Kirt > >>> > >>> On 4/11/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >>>> Good afternoon everyone, > >>>> > >>>> Last night we had some friends over to discuss business > >>>> opportunities. > >>>> Whenever such discussions occur the question of what you would do if > >>>> you > >>>> had > >>>> > >>>> an extra XXXX amount of money to spend. We showed them a video of the > >>>> blind > >>>> > >>>> drivable vehicle on the NFB Web site. We had their full attention the > >>>> whole > >>>> > >>>> time the video ran. We told them that we would like to have such a > >>>> vehicle > >>>> once they're licensed and become available to the public and the blind > >>>> for > >>>> perches. We also told them that that same technology could with > >>>> modification > >>>> > >>>> enable a blind person to fly their own private jet independently and > >>>> would > >>>> give us a tremendous amount of personal freedom. > >>>> > >>>> These vehicles won't be cheap. If you have any desire to own one of > >>>> them > >>>> > >>>> it's best to develop the income required to buy one. Thousands of > >>>> individuals have fulfilled similar dreams and we as blind people should > >>>> avail ourselves of such opportunities when they come along to enable us > >>>> to > >>>> meet our needs without depending on state VR agencies and others. We're > >>>> looking forward to having one of these vehicles once we're in position > >>>> financially and they're available for perches. Dream big! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" > >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:16 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hmmm, I'm thinking grad school in Navada, then a roadtrip back to Ohio > >>>> in a google car when I'm done. Surely they can get something together > >>>> and the kinks worked out in 5 years. :) > >>>> > >>>> On 4/11/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > >>>>> Hello, > >>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into > >>>>> account > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but if > >>>>> the > >>>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could > >>>>> even > >>>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take the > >>>>> challenge. > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Justin Young > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > >>>>> project. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>>>>> after > >>>>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >>>>>> nation's > >>>>>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > >>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the > >>>>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the > >>>>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went > >>>>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>>>>> lasers, > >>>>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to > >>>>>> help navigate, according to the company. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > >>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the > >>>>>> company. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director > >>>>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >>>>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the > >>>>>> public, the DMV said. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other > >>>>>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>>>>> Through > >>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>>>>> vehicle > >>>>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >>>>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex > >>>>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car > >>>>>> legislation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>>>>> Nevada, > >>>>>> the DMV said. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kaiti > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 20:12:40 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:12:40 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412102407.01c0e048@comcast.net> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com><1799315182319119008@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412102407.01c0e048@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hello, Frankly I would rather get a Google car than a house. Most people take out a mortgage for homes, I'd consider a car definitely beyond the value of a house. Also, the users won't be messing around with the software and that is what generally creates a malfunction. I'm pretty sure that the amount of times a computer malfunctions is not even comparable to the amount of times a human makes a mistake. I don't even think there is a comparison as computers can be kept from malfunctioning by someone who knows what they are doing. Humans are the only enemy in this situation. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Carly Mihalakis Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 10:32 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, Chris, Sighted people in my experience regard they're cars as part of them, I know. Like, you should have seen my old Dad when he got stuck on the subway after the doors closed at the line's beginning! Can you say deer in the headlights? And Chris, there are only you know, nuts here in Berkeley who are really devoted to reducing their carbon footprint who take the bus exclusively. 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >Amen, Sophie! You could rely on a friend, family member, or other >hired driver for your transportation, but this doesn't always work >because you need to juggle their schedule with yours. Carly, how many >sighted people have you known to rely solely on public transportation >in your area? Granted, many people in NYC don't have cars. But this is >due to the layout of the city, which makes it more efficient to use >public transportation. In most cities, however, many people still use >cars to travel in the city, despite the reliability of the transit >system. This is definitely true in Baltimore and even in Washington, >DC. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Sophie Trist wrote: > > > Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having > to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super > reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with > the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live > in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Carly Mihalakis > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > ,National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Hi, List, > > > > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem > > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap > > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal > > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or > > friend/driver cannot? > > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > > So no, on the car! > > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > > milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > > sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > > to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > > never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > > them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Hello, > > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going > > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > wrong with > > backing both cars. > > The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control > > or a > > computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > reader to read > > a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > > important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will > > have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem > > and > > companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. > > Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common > > tasks. > > If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little > > or > > no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > > country > > road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > > completely > > entered into the database. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sophie Trist > > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > > self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > > them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > > superior. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Hello, > > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > > into account > > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > > if the > > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > > could even > > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > > the > > challenge. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Justin Young > > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > > interesting > > project. > > > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > > after > > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > > nation's > > first autonomous vehicle license. > > > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > > in > > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > > the > > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > > the > > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > > went > > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > > lasers, > > and a database of information collected from manually driven > > cars to > > help navigate, according to the company. > > > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > > professor and > > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > > and > > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > > the > > company. > > > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > > director > > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > > the > > public, the DMV said. > > > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > > other > > states, including Google's home state of California. > > > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > > Through > > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > > vehicle > > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > > Alex > > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > > car > > legislation. > > > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > > Nevada, > > the DMV said. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > > l.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > r%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > r%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co > > mcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > r%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 20:56:35 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:56:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <51687535.c59fec0a.39c8.ffff843c@mx.google.com> Carly, here's something to think about. Where would be without technology? If we didn't have screen readers and notetakers, we'd be excluded from the sighted world. We'd be locked up in dark rooms in inhumane institutions like we were centuries ago. Without technology, we wouldn't be able to fully participate in school and in the workplace. We wouldn't have gained even a small fraction of the respect and independence we've earned. Just think how much more the sighted world would respect us if we could DRIVE. I will save money for this car if it takes me fifty years. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,"'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" wrote: Kirt, I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone reposted here mentioned. Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might give me in this area. Just my thoughts, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, driven. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, List, On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility toward their fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! So no, on the car! Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: I can't wait to see these Google cars come out. It will be a major milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40as u.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40a tt.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 21:41:05 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:41:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> Message-ID: This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list composed of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful careers. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Suzanne, > > So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams wrote: >> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus v. >> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have >> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more >> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been >> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I >> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only >> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to >> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches >> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get >> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give >> me a Google car!! >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Kirt, >> > >> > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> > reposted here mentioned. >> > >> > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> > give me in this area. >> > >> > Just my thoughts, >> > >> > Chris Nusbaum >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Patrick, >> > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> > > where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >> > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >> > > before it was viable to the general public. >> > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> > > attention in the event something goes wrong. >> > > Carley, >> > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> > > safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> > > away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> > > trains any time soon. >> > > Best, >> > > Kirt >> > > >> > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> > >> Mihalakis >> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> >> > >> Hi, List, >> > >> >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >> > >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >> > >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having >> > >> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >> > >> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >> > >> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you >> > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >> > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> > >> So no, on the car! >> > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> > >>> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >> > > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>> >> > >>> Hello, >> > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> > going >> > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> > >>> wrong >> > >> with >> > >>> backing both cars. >> > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> > >>> control >> > or >> > >>> a >> > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >> > >>> reader to >> > >> read >> > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream >> > >>> and >> > will >> > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> > >>> mainstreem >> > and >> > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >> > screen. >> > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> > >>> common tasks. >> > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> > little >> > >>> or >> > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> > country >> > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> > >>> completely entered into the database. >> > >>> Thanks, >> > >>> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>> From: Sophie Trist >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>> >> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> > >>> superior. >> > >>> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >>> > > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>> >> > >>> Hello, >> > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> > >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >> > >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >> > >>> happen very soon. >> > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> > >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google >> > >>> would take the challenge. >> > >>> Thanks, >> > >>> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>> From: Justin Young >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>> >> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> > >>> project. >> > >>> >> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> > >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday >> > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> > >>> >> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> > >>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> > >>> >> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> > >>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >> > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >> > >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> > >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >> > >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> > >>> >> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> > >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> > >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> > >>> the company. >> > >>> >> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >> > >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >> > >>> members of the public, the DMV said. >> > >>> >> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> > >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >> > >>> >> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> > >>> Through >> > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> > >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >> > >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state >> > >>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's >> > >>> autonomous car legislation. >> > >>> >> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> > >>> Nevada, the DMV said. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>> for >> > >>> nabs-l: >> > >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> > >>> l.com >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>> for >> > >>> nabs-l: >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>> for nabs-l: >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>> for >> > >>> nabs-l: >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>> for >> > >> nabs-l: >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>> for >> > >> nabs-l: >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >> > .net >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >> for >> > >> nabs-l: >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> > 0gmail >> > >> .com >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >> for >> > >> nabs-l: >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> > mail.com >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > nabs-l mailing list >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > nabs-l: >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 23:21:14 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:21:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412103457.02001c10@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412103457.02001c10@comcast.net> Message-ID: So you are saying you're passionate about your assertion that a blind person can't earn a substantial income, such that he or she can make payments on a car that a sighted person could afford? It won't be priced such that a reasonable subset of sighted folks couldn't buy it. Why do you assume, passionately as it were, that blind people can't realistically have that sort of financial freedom? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Josh, > > It's not a matter of vocabulary but passion! Have you or your English teacher ever heard of it? > At 10:31 AM 4/12/2013, you wrote: >> Great comeback, Susanne! >> As for Carly, and some others, I guess people never learn! >> As my old 10th grade English teacher said, "When you curse, it shows that you have a limited vocabulary." >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Suzanne Germano [sgermano at asu.edu] >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I feel "my blind ass" is not limited on how much I can earn, so yes I may >> one day be able to afford this car. And if I had the freedom to get >> anywhere then I am more likely to earn more money because I can actually >> chose where I want to work. Salaries for Software engineers a good plus my >> fiance's income. I try not to look at life with limitations. >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Brandon Keith Biggs < >> brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Hello, >> > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and >> > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >> > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >> > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings >> > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. >> > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >> > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> > >> > Chris Nusbaum >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> > >> > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >> >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all >> >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >> >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to >> >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Kirt, >> >>> >> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> >>> reposted here mentioned. >> >>> >> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> >>> give me in this area. >> >>> >> >>> Just my thoughts, >> >>> >> >>> Chris Nusbaum >> >>> >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> >> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > Patrick, >> >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >> >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> >>> > viable to the general public. >> >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >> >>> > in the event something goes wrong. >> >>> > Carley, >> >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >> >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >> >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >> >>> > soon. >> >>> > Best, >> >>> > Kirt >> >>> > >> >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >> >>> On Behalf Of Carly >> >>> >> Mihalakis >> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Hi, List, >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> >>> >> friend/driver cannot? >> >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >>> >> So no, on the car! >> >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>> >> > >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Hello, >> >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> >>> >>> going >> >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> >>> >>> wrong >> >>> >> with >> >>> >>> backing both cars. >> >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> >> >>> control or >> >>> >>> a >> >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader >> >>> >>> to >> >>> >> read >> >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >> >>> >>> will >> >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> >>> mainstreem >>> and >> >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>> >> >>> screen. >> >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>> >> >>> common >> >>> >>> tasks. >> >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> >>> >>> little >> >>> >>> or >> >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> >>> >>> country >> >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> >>> >>> completely >> >>> >>> entered into the database. >> >>> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >>> >>> superior. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>> >>> > >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Hello, >> >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >>> >>> into account >> >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> >>> >>> if the >> >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >>> >>> could even >> >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> challenge. >> >>> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >>> From: Justin Young >> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >>> >>> interesting >> >>> >>> project. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >>> >>> after >> >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> >>> >>> nation's >> >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> >>> >>> in >> >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> >>> >>> went >> >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >>> >>> lasers, >> >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> >>> >>> cars to >> >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >>> >>> professor and >> >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> >>> >>> and >> >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> company. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >>> >>> director >> >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> public, the DMV said. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >>> >>> other >> >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >>> >>> Through >> >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >>> >>> vehicle >> >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> >>> >>> Alex >> >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> >>> >>> car >> >>> >>> legislation. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >>> >>> Nevada, >> >>> >>> the DMV said. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>> >>> info for >> >>> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> jty727%40gmai >> >>> >>> l.com >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> >>> for >> >>> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> brandonkeithb >> >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> >>> for nabs-l: >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> sweetpeareade >> >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> brandonkeithb >> >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> sweetpeareade >> >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> justin.williams2%40gmail >> >>> >> .com >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >>> > >> >>> > ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> > nabs-l: >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:36:42 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:36:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <1799315182319119008@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412102407.01c0e048@comcast.net> <1925784765294653254@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <00ed01ce3726$91ea0100$b5be0300$@gmail.com> You got that right. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 2:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I think if it is convenient people who can drive will take the bus but no one in thier right mind would choose a 2.5 hr commute plus walking at each end over a 20 minute drive On Friday, April 12, 2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Good point, Carly. That's not just in Berkeley, by the way. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Hi, Chris, > > > > Sighted people in my experience regard they're cars as part of them, > > I > know. Like, you should have seen my old Dad when he got stuck on the > subway after the doors closed at the line's beginning! Can you say > deer in the headlights? > > And Chris, there are only you know, nuts here in Berkeley who are > > really > devoted to reducing their carbon footprint who take the bus exclusively. > 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: > >> Amen, Sophie! You could rely on a friend, family member, or other > >> hired driver for your transportation, but this doesn't always work > >> because you need to juggle their schedule with yours. Carly, how > >> many sighted people have you known to rely solely on public > >> transportation in your area? Granted, many people in NYC don't have > >> cars. But this is due to the layout of the city, which makes it > >> more efficient to use public transportation. In most cities, > >> however, many people still use cars to travel in the city, despite > >> the reliability of the transit system. This is definitely true in > >> Baltimore and even in Washington, DC. > >> > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Sophie Trist > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having > >> > to > rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super > reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting > with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want > to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Carly Mihalakis >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing > list< nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:32:30 -0700 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > > >> > Hi, List, > >> > > >> > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > >> > seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their > >> > fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having > >> > that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about > >> > chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > >> > principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take > >> > you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? > >> > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta > >> > be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> > So no, on the car! > >> > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >> > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a > >> > major milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind > >> > people in sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties > >> > won't trust us to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >> > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he > >> > will never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be > >> > convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > > >> > Hello, > >> > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is > >> > already > going > >> > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > wrong with > >> > backing both cars. > >> > The big debate will > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:41:26 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:41:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <002301ce379e$6f117aa0$4d346fe0$@verizon.net> References: <5167f3d4.c59fec0a.39c8.6f01@mx.google.com> <006501ce377e$35e85a70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002301ce379e$6f117aa0$4d346fe0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00ef01ce3727$3b05ef60$b111ce20$@gmail.com> I also totally support the car. Even if I am never able to obtain one; I absolutely support the car. At some point, we will also be able to drive just like the sighted. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sam Nelson Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:55 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi Peter, I agree with you about supporting something even if personally you may not use it. I doubt I'd ever have the money for this car, and I'd want to make sure it was as safe as possible before even being in it, but I totally support the car being out there for those that can get it and am behind anyone who wants one. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:04 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Good morning everyone, One thing we should keep in mind is that certain issues or choices may not be important to an individual but they are very significant to others. You may not want a car of your own to drive but get behind our efforts to develop a vehicle drivable by a blind person for those who want that choice and all that comes with it. Maybe you don't mind sitting around waiting for a bus or a paratransit vehicle to show up but others live busy lives and would benefit from having their own transportation they can use at their convenience and not be limited to living in areas where public transportation is available. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sophie Trist" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Carly, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you. Having to rely on public transportation severely limits us. If you want super reliable PT, you have to live in a big city. I've been experimenting with the PT in my hometown, and it isn't always on time. I do not want to live in a big city--I'm more of a small town kind of girl. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:42:57 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:42:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <00f101ce3727$713739e0$53a5ada0$@gmail.com> Do you have crud in between the keys? Is there a way you can clean that? You can also try plugging in a regular keyboard. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets It's obvious I need to see what's going on with my keyboard. I'm pressing keys, but sometimes they aren't typing the letters, as you all just saw. My laptop didn't do this before, does anybody know what might be causing this really random and kind of irritating problem? On 4/12/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Brandon, > Give it ten or fifteen more years of widespread testing in all sorts > of environments and I'll agree with you. I think it will probably > happen...but, like, if this wa a computer program, we aren't even in > public beta yet, and that's probably at least a few years down the > line. Furthermore, I think it will take several years, at least, with > the cars being widely driven in the public before society at large > accepts us blind folks driving them. It probably will happen > _eventually_, but I'm still not willing to bank on it. It'll be > interesting to follow this as it develops over the next couple > decades, though, and see what happens. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/12/13, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to >> events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, >> although I've never been >> >> in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >> being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy >> breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >> constantly face. >> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >> mom as >> >> the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >>> >>> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement >>> without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >>> don't have all >>> >>> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing >>> doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if >>> he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >>> christopher nusbaum >>> >>> wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, >>>> we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >>>> all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over >>>> by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >>>> someone reposted here mentioned. >>>> >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such >>>> as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >>>> town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation >>>> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >>>> these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >>>> reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that >>>> the Google car might give me in this area. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Patrick, >>>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >>>> > that this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's >>>> > realisticly viable now, it's still probably a long ways off >>>> > before we'll be able to drive. Where the google car is now is >>>> > probably comparable to where the internet was thirty or so years >>>> > ago; people could see the possibilities, it was realistic and >>>> > people "in the know" were probably aware it was coming...but it >>>> > still had a long way to go before it was viable to the general >>>> > public. >>>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >>>> > have to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>>> > attention in the event something goes wrong. >>>> > Carley, >>>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>>> > about driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >>>> > public transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city >>>> > comes to mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I >>>> > would totally jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >>>> > realistic and safe, at least most of the time. That being said, >>>> > it's far enough away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding >>>> > my busses and trains any time soon. >>>> > Best, >>>> > Kirt >>>> > >>>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>> >> >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> >> Carly Mihalakis >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>>> >> National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi, List, >>>> >> >>>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >>>> >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >>>> >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >>>> >> having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident >>>> >> about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care >>>> >> about the principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can >>>> >> they take you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta >>>> >> be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>> >> So no, on the car! >>>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >>>> >>> major milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >>>> >>> people in sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties >>>> >>> won't trust us to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >>>> >>> will never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>>> >>> convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hello, >>>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >>>> >>> already going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and >>>> >>> there is nothing wrong >>>> >> with >>>> >>> backing both cars. >>>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>>> >>> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or >>>> >>> using a screen reader >>>> >>> >>>> >>> to >>>> >> read >>>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >>>> >>> very important. The difference is the Google car is going >>>> >>> mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the >>>> >>> same if Jaws went mainstreem >>>> >>> >>>> >>> and >>>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and >>>> >>> no screen. >>>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >>>> >>> most common tasks. >>>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >>>> >>> very little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map >>>> >>> a long driveway or country road, one would need to manually >>>> >>> drive it till the road could be completely entered into the >>>> >>> database. >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent >>>> >>> a self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>>> >>> convince them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs >>>> >>> is superior. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hello, >>>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>>> >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >>>> >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >>>> >>> happen very soon. >>>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>>> >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >>>> >>> Google would take the challenge. >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>> From: Justin Young >>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>> >>> interesting project. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >>>> >>> roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved >>>> >>> on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>>> >>> in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas >>>> >>> Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >>>> >>> for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. >>>> >>> That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>> >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >>>> >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>> >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>>> >>> and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >>>> >>> according to the company. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>> >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >>>> >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >>>> >>> members of the public, the DMV said. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>>> >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>> >>> Through >>>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>> >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >>>> >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California >>>> >>> state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced >>>> >>> that state's autonomous car legislation. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses >>>> >>> in Nevada, the DMV said. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for >>>> >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gm >>>> >>> ai >>>> >>> l.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for >>>> >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeit >>>> >>> hb >>>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpearea >>>> >>> de >>>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for >>>> >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeit >>>> >>> hb >>>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpearea >>>> >>> de >>>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40 >>>> >>> comcast.net >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >> info for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willi >>>> >> ams2%40gmail >>>> >> .com >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >> info for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >>>> >> de%40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> > m%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comc >>>> ast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%4 >>> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:43:53 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:43:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net><005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com><-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid><7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <00f301ce3727$92c46600$b84d3200$@gmail.com> Way to go Brandon. I'm a fan. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hello, Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers constantly face. Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my opinion. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > > You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without > fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all > the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't > murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to > usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum > wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >> >> > Patrick, >> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> > viable to the general public. >> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >> > in the event something goes wrong. >> > Carley, >> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >> > soon. >> > Best, >> > Kirt >> > >> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> >> Mihalakis >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> Hi, List, >> >> >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> >> friend/driver cannot? >> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> So no, on the car! >> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Hello, >> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> >>> going >> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> >>> wrong >> >> with >> >>> backing both cars. >> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> >>> control or >> >>> a >> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader >> >>> to >> >> read >> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >> >>> will >> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem >> >>> and >> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >> >>> screen. >> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> >>> common >> >>> tasks. >> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> >>> little >> >>> or >> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> >>> country >> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> >>> completely >> >>> entered into the database. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >>> superior. >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> Hello, >> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >>> into account >> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> >>> if the >> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >>> could even >> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> >>> the >> >>> challenge. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Justin Young >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>> >> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >>> interesting >> >>> project. >> >>> >> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >>> after >> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> >>> nation's >> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >>> >> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> >>> in >> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >>> the >> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >>> >> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> >>> the >> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> >>> went >> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >>> lasers, >> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> >>> cars to >> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >> >>> >> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >>> professor and >> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >>> >> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> >>> and >> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> >>> the >> >>> company. >> >>> >> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >>> director >> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> >>> the >> >>> public, the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >>> other >> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >>> >> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >>> Through >> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >>> vehicle >> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> >>> Alex >> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> >>> car >> >>> legislation. >> >>> >> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >>> Nevada, >> >>> the DMV said. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>> info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> >>> l.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:45:59 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:45:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <38C8A933-C477-4E6D-912A-353C8573FD67@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <38C8A933-C477-4E6D-912A-353C8573FD67@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f701ce3727$ddd921d0$998b6570$@gmail.com> I was looking through the messages, but I don't recall saying that it is to expensive. If I was unclear about something, then please explain. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 11:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, I don't mean to be a killjoy but, as I recall, you are always the one telling people to do whatever works best for them. Here you are saying"isn't good"because it is too expensive? I don't mean to sound presumptuous or assume anything… But that almost sounds like a double standard to me. :-) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:17 AM, "Rania Ismail LMT" wrote: > Yes I to agree. I my self live in a town and have to depend on a cab or > someone like a sister or friend to drive me ware I need to go. > I would love if I as a blind person was able to drive one day. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher > nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >> in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >> at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >> I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >> soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >>> Mihalakis >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hi, List, >>> >>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >>> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >>> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >>> friend/driver cannot? >>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> So no, on the car! >>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >>> with >>>> backing both cars. >>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control > or >>>> a >>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >>> read >>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem > and >>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >>>> tasks. >>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >>>> or >>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > country >>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>>> completely >>>> entered into the database. >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>> superior. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>>> into account >>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >>>> if the >>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>>> could even >>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>>> the >>>> challenge. >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Justin Young >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>> interesting >>>> project. >>>> >>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>> after >>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>> nation's >>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>> >>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>>> in >>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>>> the >>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>> >>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>>> the >>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >>>> went >>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>> lasers, >>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>>> cars to >>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>> >>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>> professor and >>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>>> and >>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>>> the >>>> company. >>>> >>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>> director >>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>>> the >>>> public, the DMV said. >>>> >>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>>> other >>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>> >>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>> Through >>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>> vehicle >>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>>> Alex >>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >>>> car >>>> legislation. >>>> >>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>> Nevada, >>>> the DMV said. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:44:33 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:44:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <38C8A933-C477-4E6D-912A-353C8573FD67@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <38C8A933-C477-4E6D-912A-353C8573FD67@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f501ce3727$aa3ed5e0$febc81a0$@gmail.com> When did I say it was to expensive? What message are you referring to? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 11:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, I don't mean to be a killjoy but, as I recall, you are always the one telling people to do whatever works best for them. Here you are saying"isn't good"because it is too expensive? I don't mean to sound presumptuous or assume anything… But that almost sounds like a double standard to me. :-) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:17 AM, "Rania Ismail LMT" wrote: > Yes I to agree. I my self live in a town and have to depend on a cab > or someone like a sister or friend to drive me ware I need to go. > I would love if I as a blind person was able to drive one day. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're right; >> we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that this >> thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly viable >> now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able to >> drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >> before it was viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> attention in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> trains any time soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >>> Mihalakis >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hi, List, >>> >>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having >>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances >>> of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles >>> personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, >>> train, or friend/driver cannot? >>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a >>> communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> So no, on the car! >>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>>> going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >>>> nothing wrong >>> with >>>> backing both cars. >>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>>> control > or >>>> a >>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>>> reader to >>> read >>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and >>>> will have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>>> mainstreem > and >>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>>> common tasks. >>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>>> little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>>> driveway or > country >>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>>> completely entered into the database. >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >>>> happen very soon. >>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google >>>> would take the challenge. >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Justin Young >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>>> project. >>>> >>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday >>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>>> >>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>> >>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>>> >>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>> >>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>>> the company. >>>> >>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >>>> members of the public, the DMV said. >>>> >>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>>> >>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>> Through >>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state >>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's >>>> autonomous car legislation. >>>> >>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > .net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.c > om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gm > ail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sat Apr 13 04:23:52 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Message-ID: Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using in class, she told me that the name of the book is called Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks so much! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 04:47:13 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:47:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Message-ID: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> SGVsZ2EsIHRoaXMgd2lsbCBwcm9iYWJseSBub3Qgd29yaywgYnV0IHlvdSBjYW4gYXNrIG15IHBy b2Zlc3Nvci4gCkknbSB0YWtpbmcgQVAgVS5TLiBIaXN0b3J5IG5leHQgeWVhciwgYW5kIHRoZSB0 ZXh0Ym9vayB3ZSdyZSAKdXNpbmcgaXMgQW1lcmljYW4gSGlzdG9yeTogQSBTdXJ2ZXksIDEzdGgg ZWRpdGlvbi4gSSB3YXNuJ3QgYWJsZSAKdG8gbG9jYXRlIHRoZSAxM3RoIGVkaXRpb24sIGhvd2V2 ZXIsIEkgZGlkIGZpbmQgc2V2ZXJhbCBvdGhlciAKZWRpdGlvbnMgb24gQm9va3NoYXJlLiBXaGVu IG15IHRlYWNoZXIgaGVhcmQgdGhpcywgc2hlIHNhaWQgdGhhdCAKdGhlIG90aGVyIGVkaXRpb25z IG9mIHRoZSBib29rIHdlcmUgc28gc2ltaWxhciB0byB0aGUgb25lIHRoYXQgCnRoZSBjbGFzcyB3 YXMgdXNpbmcgdGhhdCBpdCB3b24ndCBtYWtlIGFueSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlLiBJZiB5b3VyIAp0ZWFj aGVyIGFwcHJvdmVzIG9mIHRoZSA0dGggb3IgNXRoIGVkaXRpb24sIHlvdSBjYW4gcHJvYmFibHkg ZmluZCAKdGhhdCBzb21ld2hlcmUuCgogLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLQpGcm9t OiAiSGVsZ2EiIDxoZWxnYS5zY2hyZWliZXJAaG90bWFpbC5jb20KVG86IDxuYWJzLWxAbmZibmV0 Lm9yZwpEYXRlIHNlbnQ6IFNhdCwgMTMgQXByIDIwMTMgMDA6MjM6NTIgLTA0MDAKU3ViamVjdDog W25hYnMtbF0gU3VtbWVyIEVuZ2xpc2ggQ29tcG9zaXRpb24gMiwgY2xhc3MKCkhpIG15IG5hbWUg aXMgSGVsZ2EsIGFuZCBJ4oCZbSBnb2luZyB0byBiZSB0YWtpbmcgbXkgRW5nbGlzaCAKY29tcG9z aXRpb24gMiBjbGFzcyBpbiB0aGUgc3VtbWVyIHRlcm0sIHdoaWNoIHN0YXJ0cyBvbiBNb25kYXks IApNYXkgMTMuIEFuZCBJIGFjdHVhbGx5IGVtYWlsIG15IHByb2Zlc3NvciBpbiBhZHZhbmNlIGFu ZCBhc2sgaGVyIAppZiBzaGUga25vd3MgdGhlIG5hbWUgb2YgdGhlIGJvb2sgdGhhdCB3ZSBhcmUg Z29pbmcgdG8gYmUgdXNpbmcgCmluIGNsYXNzLCBzaGUgdG9sZCBtZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBuYW1lIG9m IHRoZSBib29rIGlzIGNhbGxlZCAKRXZlcnl0aGluZ+KAmXMgQW4gQXJndW1lbnQsIDZ0aCBFZGl0 aW9uLiBCdXQgc2hlIGFsc28gdG9sZCBtZSAKdW5mb3J0dW5hdGVseSB0aGlzIGlzIGEgbmV3IGVk aXRpb24uIEFuZCBJIGtub3cgd2hlbiBhIGJvb2sgaXMgYSAKbmV3IGVkaXRpb24gdGhlcmUgaXMg bm90IHJlYWxseSBhbmQgYXVkaW8gdmVyc2lvbiBvciBhIEJyYWlsbGUgCnZlcnNpb24gb2YgaXQu IEkgd2lsbCByZWFsbHkgbGlrZSB0byBoYXZlIHRoaXMgYm9vayBpbiBCcmFpbGxlIApmb3JtYXQn OyBpbnN0ZWFkLCB0aGFuIEVsZWN0cm9uaWMgZm9ybWF0IGJlY2F1c2UgdGhpcyBpcyBteSAKcHJl ZmVyIHdheSBvZiByZWFkaW5nIHdoZW4gaXQgY29tZXMgZm9yIEVuZ2xpc2ggYW5kIExpdGVyYXR1 cmUgCmNsYXNzZXMsIGJ1dCBJIGRvbuKAmXQga25vdyB3aGVyZSBJIGNhbiBjb252ZXJ0IHRoaXMg Ym9vayBpbiAKQnJhaWxsZSBiZWZvcmUgbXkgc3VtbWVyIGNsYXNzIHN0YXJ0cy4gSSBkZWZpbml0 ZWx5IGtub3cgdGhhdCAKdGhpcyBjb3N0cyBhIGxvdCBvZiBtb25leS4gRG8geW91IGd1eXMga25v dyB3aGVyZSBjb3VsZCBJIHNlbmQgbXkgCmJvb2sgaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8gYmUgdHJhbnNjcmliZSBp biBCcmFpbGxlIGZvciBtZSBmb3IgZnJlZT8gSSB3YXMgCmp1c3Qgd29uZGVyaW5nIGJlY2F1c2Ug SSBrbm93IHRoYXQgc29tZSBjb21wYW5pZXMgZG8gaXQsIGJ1dCBpdCAKY29zdHMgYSBsb3Qgb2Yg bW9uZXkgdG8gZG8gc28uIEnigJlsbCByZWFsbHkgYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSBpdCBpZiB5b3UgCmd1eXMg Y291bGQgdGVsbCBtZSBzb21lIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zIGFib3V0IHRoaXMgc2l0dWF0aW9uLiBUaGFu a3MgCnNvIG11Y2ghCgotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLSBuZXh0IHBhcnQgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0KQSBu b24tdGV4dCBhdHRhY2htZW50IHdhcyBzY3J1YmJlZC4uLgpOYW1lOiB3bEVtb3RpY29uLXNtaWxl WzFdLnBuZwpUeXBlOiBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi9vY3RldC1zdHJlYW0KU2l6ZTogMTA0OSBieXRlcwpE ZXNjOiBub3QgYXZhaWxhYmxlClVSTDogPGh0dHA6Ly9uZmJuZXQub3JnL3BpcGVybWFpbC9uYWJz LWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9hdHRhY2htZW50cy8yMDEzMDQxMi8yN2E4MjUyZC9hdHRhY2htZW50LmE+ Ci0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tIG5leHQgcGFydCAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQpBIG5vbi10ZXh0IGF0dGFj aG1lbnQgd2FzIHNjcnViYmVkLi4uCk5hbWU6IGF0dGFjaG1lbnQKVHlwZTogYXBwbGljYXRpb24v b2N0ZXQtc3RyZWFtClNpemU6IDMwNCBieXRlcwpEZXNjOiBub3QgYXZhaWxhYmxlClVSTDogPGh0 dHA6Ly9uZmJuZXQub3JnL3BpcGVybWFpbC9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9hdHRhY2htZW50cy8y MDEzMDQxMi8yN2E4MjUyZC9hdHRhY2htZW50LTAwMDEuYT4K From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 05:23:28 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:23:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. > I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're > using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able > to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other > editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that > the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that > the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your > teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find > that somewhere. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helga" To: Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class > > Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English > composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, > May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her > if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using > in class, she told me that the name of the book is called > Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me > unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a > new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille > version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille > format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my > prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature > classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in > Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that > this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my > book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was > just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it > costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you > guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks > so much! > > -- Kaiti From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Apr 13 06:55:36 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:55:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> 'Evening, blackbyrdfly, All I was trying to point out is, if we as blind students are to shed any personal investment in the sometimes alarming cunumdrum of blind folks driving, or continue to simply take the bus, perhaps said students can more fully appreciate some corner of this dilemma, previously unrealized. to offend was definitely not my intention. Carly At 02:41 PM 4/12/2013, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a >substantial living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find >this statement offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a >mailing list composed of blind students who are all, I hope, in >school pursuing gainful careers. > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Good morning, Suzanne, > > > > So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough > dough for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no > matter how long it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM > 4/11/2013, justin williams wrote: > >> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus v. > >> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Suzanne Germano > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am > 49 and have > >> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more > >> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been > >> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I > >> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is > frustrating to only > >> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to > >> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position > that matches > >> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get > >> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give > >> me a Google car!! > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < > >> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > Kirt, > >> > > >> > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > >> > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > >> > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > >> > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > >> > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > >> > reposted here mentioned. > >> > > >> > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > >> > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > >> > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > >> > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > >> > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > >> > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > >> > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > >> > give me in this area. > >> > > >> > Just my thoughts, > >> > > >> > Chris Nusbaum > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > Patrick, > >> > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > >> > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > >> > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > >> > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > >> > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to > >> > > where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > >> > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were > >> > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > >> > > before it was viable to the general public. > >> > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > >> > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > >> > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close > >> > > attention in the event something goes wrong. > >> > > Carley, > >> > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > >> > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > >> > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > >> > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > >> > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and > >> > > safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough > >> > > away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > >> > > trains any time soon. > >> > > Best, > >> > > Kirt > >> > > > >> > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >> > >> Mihalakis > >> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, List, > >> > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > >> > >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their > >> > >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having > >> > >> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about > >> > >> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > >> > >> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you > >> > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? > >> > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> > >> So no, on the car! > >> > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >> > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >> > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >> > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >> > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >> > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >> > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >> > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Hello, > >> > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > >> > going > >> > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >> > >>> wrong > >> > >> with > >> > >>> backing both cars. > >> > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > >> > >>> control > >> > or > >> > >>> a > >> > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > >> > >>> reader to > >> > >> read > >> > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >> > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream > >> > >>> and > >> > will > >> > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > >> > >>> mainstreem > >> > and > >> > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > >> > screen. > >> > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > >> > >>> common tasks. > >> > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > >> > little > >> > >>> or > >> > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > >> > country > >> > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >> > >>> completely entered into the database. > >> > >>> Thanks, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>> From: Sophie Trist > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >> > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >> > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >> > >>> superior. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >>> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Hello, > >> > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >> > >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be > >> > >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will > >> > >>> happen very soon. > >> > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >> > >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google > >> > >>> would take the challenge. > >> > >>> Thanks, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>> From: Justin Young > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>> > >> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >> > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > >> > >>> project. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >> > >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday > >> > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > >> > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >> > >>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >> > >>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That > >> > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >> > >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually > >> > >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >> > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >> > >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > >> > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >> > >>> the company. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >> > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has > >> > >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the > >> > >>> members of the public, the DMV said. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >> > >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >> > >>> Through > >> > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >> > >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more > >> > >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state > >> > >>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's > >> > >>> autonomous car legislation. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >> > >>> Nevada, the DMV said. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>> for > >> > >>> nabs-l: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >> > >>> l.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>> for > >> > >>> nabs-l: > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>> for nabs-l: > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> > >>> r%40gmail.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>> for > >> > >>> nabs-l: > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>> for > >> > >> nabs-l: > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> > >>> r%40gmail.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>> for > >> > >> nabs-l: > >> > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > >> > .net > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >> for > >> > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> > 0gmail > >> > >> .com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >> for > >> > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > nabs-l mailing list > >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > > for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sat Apr 13 07:02:09 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 03:02:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Kaiti, What I meant to say is that is not that I don't like reading the book on audio format or electronic Braille format. What I meant was that the reason that I prefer reading books as a Braille books format is becauseI use to read them that way, and I also use to read them in audeo when I was in high school. Just to let you know, reading Braille is something that I learned before ever learning how to use a computer or a note taker, I actually was not born blind, I just became blind five years ago when I was 16 years old, and Braille is something that I really enjoy reading from that time. I actually have a BrailleNote device that I use to read my class notes, but I just find out that it got broken today when I called tecknical support of the company that selds it because it wasn't working yesterday very well. And I called my DBS counceler today and I told her about this situation and she told me that she would send the BrailleNote to be repaired, but she also told me that this probably would take weeks or months for the machine to come back to me. So that means that I would not have my BrailleNote device in order to read my school notes. Actually, my DBS counceller told me that she would send my device to be repaired the week after next week because she is going to be out of her office next week. I'm now actually taikeing my Literature class, and I use my book as a PDF for mat that the Dissability department provides, but I don't really like it because it's bnot Braille, and I told my Adviser from college about this, and she told me that she is not going to be printing the stories from my book in Braille for me from the Braille printer that the school owns because I have a BrailleNote she says. I really think reading books from a note taker is not enough because it takes more time to find the pages, rather I think that is better to have it as a Braille book. That's my opinion, What do you think about it? Thanks so much for listening to me. I'll really appreciat it! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi, Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. > I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're > using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able > to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other > editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that > the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that > the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your > teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find > that somewhere. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helga" To: Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class > > Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English > composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, > May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her > if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using > in class, she told me that the name of the book is called > Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me > unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a > new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille > version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille > format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my > prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature > classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in > Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that > this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my > book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was > just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it > costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you > guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks > so much! > > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Apr 13 08:01:45 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412103457.02001c10@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130413000241.01c8e108@comcast.net> Evening, Josh, Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on, unabated. And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? Have a good day! Carly > >> > >> > Hello, > >> > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come > to events and > >> > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never > >> > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like > >> > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings > >> > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers > constantly face. > >> > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom > >> > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in > my opinion. > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum > >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > > >> > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > >> > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > >> > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >> > > >> > Chris Nusbaum > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >> >> > >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without > >> >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we > don't have all > >> >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't > >> >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if > he dares to > >> >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, > christopher nusbaum > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Kirt, > >> >>> > >> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > >> >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > >> >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > >> >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > >> >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > >> >>> reposted here mentioned. > >> >>> > >> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > >> >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > >> >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > >> >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > >> >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > >> >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > >> >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > >> >>> give me in this area. > >> >>> > >> >>> Just my thoughts, > >> >>> > >> >>> Chris Nusbaum > >> >>> > >> >>> Sent from my iPhone > >> >>> > >> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > Patrick, > >> >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > >> >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > >> >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > >> >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > >> >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably > comparable to where > >> >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > >> >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" > were probably > >> >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > before it was > >> >>> > viable to the general public. > >> >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > >> >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > >> >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very > close attention > >> >>> > in the event something goes wrong. > >> >>> > Carley, > >> >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > >> >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > >> >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > >> >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > >> >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were > realistic and safe, > >> >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far > enough away that > >> >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > trains any time > >> >>> > soon. > >> >>> > Best, > >> >>> > Kirt > >> >>> > > >> >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> >> From: nabs-l > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] > >> >>> On Behalf Of Carly > >> >>> >> Mihalakis > >> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Hi, List, > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched > sighted folk seem > >> >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > >> >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not > having that crap > >> >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > >> >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > principles personal > >> >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a > bus, train, or > >> >>> >> friend/driver cannot? > >> >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >> >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> >>> >> So no, on the car! > >> >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >> >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >> >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >> >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >> >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >> >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >> >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >> >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Hello, > >> >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > >> >>> >>> going > >> >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >> >>> >>> wrong > >> >>> >> with > >> >>> >>> backing both cars. > >> >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> > >> >>> control or > >> >>> >>> a > >> >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a > screen reader > >> >>> >>> to > >> >>> >> read > >> >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >> >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going > mainstream and > >> >>> >>> will > >> >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > >> >>> mainstreem >>> and > >> >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used > Jaws and no >>> > >> >>> screen. > >> >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary > for most >>> > >> >>> common > >> >>> >>> tasks. > >> >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > >> >>> >>> little > >> >>> >>> or > >> >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > >> >>> >>> country > >> >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >> >>> >>> completely > >> >>> >>> entered into the database. > >> >>> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist > >> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >> >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >> >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >> >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >> >>> >>> superior. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Hello, > >> >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >> >>> >>> into account > >> >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > >> >>> >>> if the > >> >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > >> >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >> >>> >>> could even > >> >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > >> >>> >>> the > >> >>> >>> challenge. > >> >>> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> >>> From: Justin Young > >> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >> >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >> >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >> >>> >>> interesting > >> >>> >>> project. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >> >>> >>> after > >> >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > >> >>> >>> nation's > >> >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >> >>> >>> in > >> >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >> >>> >>> the > >> >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >> >>> >>> the > >> >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > >> >>> >>> went > >> >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >> >>> >>> lasers, > >> >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven > >> >>> >>> cars to > >> >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >> >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >> >>> >>> professor and > >> >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >> >>> >>> and > >> >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >> >>> >>> the > >> >>> >>> company. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >> >>> >>> director > >> >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > >> >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > >> >>> >>> the > >> >>> >>> public, the DMV said. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >> >>> >>> other > >> >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >> >>> >>> Through > >> >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >> >>> >>> vehicle > >> >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > >> >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > >> >>> >>> Alex > >> >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > >> >>> >>> car > >> >>> >>> legislation. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >> >>> >>> Nevada, > >> >>> >>> the DMV said. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >>> >>> info for > >> >>> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > jty727%40gmai > >> >>> >>> l.com > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>> >>> for > >> >>> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > brandonkeithb > >> >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>> >>> for nabs-l: > >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > sweetpeareade > >> >>> >>> r%40gmail.com > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > brandonkeithb > >> >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>> >> nabs-l: > >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > sweetpeareade > >> >>> >>> r%40gmail.com > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>> >> nabs-l: > >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > carlymih%40comcast.net > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>> >> nabs-l: > >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > justin.williams2%40gmail > >> >>> >> .com > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>> >> nabs-l: > >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >> >>> > > >> >>> > ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>> > nabs-l: > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >> >>> > >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>> > carlymih%40comcast.net > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >> > dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >> >> > >> > > >> > ______________________________**_________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > ______________________________**_________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Apr 13 09:40:45 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:40:45 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: Hi Helga! First of all, welcome to the list! Hmmm! Your Braille Note broke? I'm a proud Pac Mate user! Please check into getting one, because Pac Mates are better quality than Braille Notes. Freedom Scientific makes those. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi Kaiti, What I meant to say is that is not that I don't like reading the book on audio format or electronic Braille format. What I meant was that the reason that I prefer reading books as a Braille books format is becauseI use to read them that way, and I also use to read them in audeo when I was in high school. Just to let you know, reading Braille is something that I learned before ever learning how to use a computer or a note taker, I actually was not born blind, I just became blind five years ago when I was 16 years old, and Braille is something that I really enjoy reading from that time. I actually have a BrailleNote device that I use to read my class notes, but I just find out that it got broken today when I called tecknical support of the company that selds it because it wasn't working yesterday very well. And I called my DBS counceler today and I told her about this situation and she told me that she would send the BrailleNote to be repaired, but she also told me that this probably would take weeks or months for the machine to come back to me. So that means that I would not have my BrailleNote device in order to read my school notes. Actually, my DBS counceller told me that she would send my device to be repaired the week after next week because she is going to be out of her office next week. I'm now actually taikeing my Literature class, and I use my book as a PDF for mat that the Dissability department provides, but I don't really like it because it's bnot Braille, and I told my Adviser from college about this, and she told me that she is not going to be printing the stories from my book in Braille for me from the Braille printer that the school owns because I have a BrailleNote she says. I really think reading books from a note taker is not enough because it takes more time to find the pages, rather I think that is better to have it as a Braille book. That's my opinion, What do you think about it? Thanks so much for listening to me. I'll really appreciat it! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi, Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. > I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're > using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able > to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other > editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that > the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that > the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your > teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find > that somewhere. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helga" To: Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class > > Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English > composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, > May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her > if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using > in class, she told me that the name of the book is called > Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me > unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a > new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille > version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille > format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my > prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature > classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in > Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that > this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my > book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was > just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it > costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you > guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks > so much! > > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 13 14:40:29 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 07:40:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I agree to check for availability of previous editions. Often there is very little change. My daughter does this just to save money on textbooks On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your > teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. > > As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or > any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could > read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it > on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in > brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the > site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have > an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the > fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really > don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always > download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that > would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. > > On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > > Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. > > I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're > > using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able > > to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other > > editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that > > the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that > > the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your > > teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find > > that somewhere. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Helga" > To: > Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 > > Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class > > > > Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English > > composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, > > May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her > > if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using > > in class, she told me that the name of the book is called > > Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me > > unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a > > new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille > > version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille > > format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my > > prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature > > classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in > > Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that > > this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my > > book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was > > just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it > > costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you > > guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks > > so much! > > > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 15:24:06 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:24:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: I still don't understand why there is any dilemma here at all. It's neither cheaper nor more efficient to take the bus than to own a car. It is more eco-friendly, but so too is car pooling. Over time, if you use public transit every day, including the occasional cab or sighted friend's car, buying a car will pay for itself, even of you factor in the cost of maintenance and insurance. I'd say 3 to 4 years. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2013, at 12:55 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > 'Evening, blackbyrdfly, > > All I was trying to point out is, if we as blind students are to shed any personal investment in the sometimes alarming cunumdrum of blind folks driving, or continue to simply take the bus, perhaps said students can more fully appreciate some corner of this dilemma, previously unrealized. to offend was definitely not my intention. > Carly > At 02:41 PM 4/12/2013, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list composed of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful careers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> > Good morning, Suzanne, >> > >> > So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams wrote: >> >> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus v. >> >> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano >> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have >> >> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more >> >> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been >> >> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I >> >> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only >> >> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to >> >> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches >> >> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get >> >> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give >> >> me a Google car!! >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >> >> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Kirt, >> >> > >> >> > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> >> > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> >> > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> >> > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> >> > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> >> > reposted here mentioned. >> >> > >> >> > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> >> > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> >> > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> >> > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> >> > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> >> > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> >> > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> >> > give me in this area. >> >> > >> >> > Just my thoughts, >> >> > >> >> > Chris Nusbaum >> >> > >> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> > >> >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Patrick, >> >> > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> >> > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> >> > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> >> > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> >> > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> >> > > where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> >> > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >> >> > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >> >> > > before it was viable to the general public. >> >> > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> >> > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> >> > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> >> > > attention in the event something goes wrong. >> >> > > Carley, >> >> > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> >> > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> >> > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> >> > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> >> > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> >> > > safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> >> > > away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> >> > > trains any time soon. >> >> > > Best, >> >> > > Kirt >> >> > > >> >> > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> >> > >> Mihalakis >> >> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> >> > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Hi, List, >> >> > >> >> >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >> >> > >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >> >> > >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having >> >> > >> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >> >> > >> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >> >> > >> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you >> >> > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >> >> > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> >> > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> > >> So no, on the car! >> >> > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> >> > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> >> > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> >> > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >> > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> >> > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> >> > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >> > >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Hello, >> >> > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> >> > going >> >> > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> >> > >>> wrong >> >> > >> with >> >> > >>> backing both cars. >> >> > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> >> > >>> control >> >> > or >> >> > >>> a >> >> > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >> >> > >>> reader to >> >> > >> read >> >> > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> >> > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream >> >> > >>> and >> >> > will >> >> > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> >> > >>> mainstreem >> >> > and >> >> > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >> >> > screen. >> >> > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> >> > >>> common tasks. >> >> > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> >> > little >> >> > >>> or >> >> > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> >> > country >> >> > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> >> > >>> completely entered into the database. >> >> > >>> Thanks, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> >> > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> >> > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >> > >>> superior. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >>> > >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Hello, >> >> > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >> > >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >> >> > >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >> >> > >>> happen very soon. >> >> > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >> > >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google >> >> > >>> would take the challenge. >> >> > >>> Thanks, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>> From: Justin Young >> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >> > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> >> > >>> project. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >> > >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday >> >> > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> >> > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >> > >>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> >> > >>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >> >> > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >> > >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >> >> > >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >> > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >> > >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> >> > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> >> > >>> the company. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >> > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >> >> > >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >> >> > >>> members of the public, the DMV said. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >> > >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >> > >>> Through >> >> > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >> > >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >> >> > >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state >> >> > >>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's >> >> > >>> autonomous car legislation. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >> > >>> Nevada, the DMV said. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> >> > >>> l.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >> >> > .net >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> > 0gmail >> >> > >> .com >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 15:55:08 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:55:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, Yes, I have plenty of sighted friends who do that too. Often buying even just the previous edition is cheaper than buying the new edition used for them too. That stinks about your BrailleNote... I remember that quite well from high school. At one point both my BN and laptop from home broke down at the same time. I would take my lunch and eat it in the braille office so I could do what I could on the laptop there, come in early to school, stuff like that. Back then I was totally against taking a study hall because I considered it to be a waste of time, but in hindsight I should have been less stubborn and opted for a class where I could have used the computer for as much as possible. At home I would have to do everything else on a Perkins brailler and that took forever. Anyways, now my personal favorite is the BrailleSense by Hims. I have an On-Hand so it's really small, smaller than the BrailleNote Apex actually, and it still has the functionality of a full-fledged notetaker. I share the same thought as you; I love reading in braille. I used to listen to audio books when I was younger, but I like braille so much more and feel that especially since so many people don't read braille at all and rely on audio for everything that in a way it's kind of cheating yourself out of reading the book. I can get really picky with this argument when I'm talking with someone who does use audio a lot. I sometimes say, "Well, if you define reading as a verb then you're not doing it." Anyway, I was just making sure since the book was available on bookshare. I hope your notetaker comes back sooner than they think. On 4/13/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I agree to check for availability of previous editions. Often there is very > little change. My daughter does this just to save money on textbooks > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Kaiti Shelton > > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your >> teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. >> >> As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or >> any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could >> read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it >> on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in >> brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the >> site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have >> an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the >> fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really >> don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always >> download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that >> would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. >> >> On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> > Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. >> > I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're >> > using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able >> > to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other >> > editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that >> > the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that >> > the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your >> > teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find >> > that somewhere. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Helga" > > To: > > Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class >> > >> > Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English >> > composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, >> > May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her >> > if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using >> > in class, she told me that the name of the book is called >> > Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me >> > unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a >> > new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille >> > version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille >> > format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my >> > prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature >> > classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in >> > Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that >> > this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my >> > book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was >> > just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it >> > costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you >> > guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks >> > so much! >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kingettr at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 16:10:59 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:10:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] my rambling thoughts on the Google car In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> Well here's what I believe, these are just my beliefs, obviously, and general things I've noticed as a blind person. I don't know about you but I've ever been really early or really late to appointments, and more times than not I have had both instances happen. I wait for a really long time, sometimes out in the heat or cold because the building hasn’t opened up even thoughmade sure to schedule my ride for a certain time, or, I'm blubbering and stuttering apologies for my tardiness and then explaining that I use public transportation, thus taking an excuse for myself even though it's a valid one and one that I have to make to my boss,, or in my case, my editor because I didn't get to an event on time, thus rendering the story I was going to write useless because, a fellow sighted journalist, with his own car has independently, and with no reliance, made it there before I have. For school I've had to arrive on campus an extra hour earlier because Paratransit is so unreliable. Sometimes, even though I scheduled to get picked up two hours ahead of time it would take that long to get to school, and I have arrived at the start of class. Sometimes, I get there within 30 minutes leaving me to wonder around campus for a class that didn't start until two hours later. On a personal note I used that time to venture around the campus, mental mapping, and also keeping a vigil eye out for any sexy black man who could rock my world or even walk me to class, if he even shared the same sexual preference as me. LOL. I never found my soul mate while wandering around the campus but I knew it a lot better than anyone. I did see a lot of good looking straight guys though, to which I had fun with my imagination. Ahem, anyway… On a different scenario… paatransit’s operators have messed up. I won’t bore you all with the details but here's the shimmy. They mess up the times, even when I use the relay service and the relayoperator repeats the times, dates, etc. drivers have left and they didn't get out and call my name, etc. you all have been there, so that's all I will say on the subject. I don't know about you but I don’t want to have those things happen. The Google car is the perfect solution, and by the way, it's here, on the market, in Nevada already. What Google is doing me installing their software and stuff onto cars made by manufacturers? Toyota has three cars equipped and rolling down Nevada streets already. Professors use it, etc. I'll send you all coverage on it later, but it's here, this want happen in another 20 years from now, because they have actually started making the car in 2011, two years ago. The first public showing of the car was in 2012. With the cloud and stuff, seriously, it updates itself so there isn't much more work needed on the software. Everything is cloud based, so I update itself, ahem, through the cloud. Smile. If you live in Nevada, You’ve seen a Google car beside you, you just haven’t noticed. Very rich people are using these cars already. It's here now, at least, in Nevada anyway. Anyway, moving on to my original point… another thing… Now, it's the law of the blind to live in a place of public transportation. It's a requirement. If you’re blind, and if you want to have a good job then live here where there's a lot of public transportation and good Paratransit, because, if you want to be working then what other voice do you have. A lot of jobs, even in this day, can't be done at home…a and most people won’t have a sighted partner for a long time. By the way, side note, I will. Smile. One day. I’d really not to be bound by that catch 22. By the way, sometimes, it's a hindrance to take backup measures, what I mean by this is, say, for example, always take cash incase Paratransit fails you so bad you resort to cabs, always memorize the bus routes unless you want to be lost when, and if, Paratransit leaves you past their driving times. I don’t want to have to be taking these cautious measures just because I'm blind and there's no other option. Sighted people don't have to. I always do but I’d love to just call upon my car, hop in, and go if I ever get in a jam and need to get somewhere fast. Also, it would be nice to not schedule 24 hours ahead of time to go someplace fun, etc. I want to just go and not be restricted. Seriously, this is the best thing that has ever happened. Insurance, cost, and possible technological failures aside, I'm behind this car with every bone in my body because it will allow me, as both a blind journalist and a blind person who has fun every once in a while, so many leverages, pivoting me up on the same leave as sighted peers, or coworkers. By the way, the technology for failsafe exists. If a malfunction in the software happens the car will audibly tell us, the blind driver, and then pull over. You'll have to call the appropriate person, if it's really bad. But again, the software is working on cloud technology so it will download the needed repairs automatically. If it's a minor issue then it will ask you if you want to pull over to resolve it. If you want to read the same news I've been reading then message me off list. A CNN reporter commented on seeing one in Nevada pull into the parking space reserved for principals as opposed to teachers. Trust me, it's here now, and I'm so excited I'm squirming! From kingettr at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 16:11:13 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:11:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <516983A1.5000703@gmail.com> Well here's what I believe, these are just my beliefs, obviously, and general things I've noticed as a blind person. I don't know about you but I've ever been really early or really late to appointments, and more times than not I have had both instances happen. I wait for a really long time, sometimes out in the heat or cold because the building hasn’t opened up even thoughmade sure to schedule my ride for a certain time, or, I'm blubbering and stuttering apologies for my tardiness and then explaining that I use public transportation, thus taking an excuse for myself even though it's a valid one and one that I have to make to my boss,, or in my case, my editor because I didn't get to an event on time, thus rendering the story I was going to write useless because, a fellow sighted journalist, with his own car has independently, and with no reliance, made it there before I have. For school I've had to arrive on campus an extra hour earlier because Paratransit is so unreliable. Sometimes, even though I scheduled to get picked up two hours ahead of time it would take that long to get to school, and I have arrived at the start of class. Sometimes, I get there within 30 minutes leaving me to wonder around campus for a class that didn't start until two hours later. On a personal note I used that time to venture around the campus, mental mapping, and also keeping a vigil eye out for any sexy black man who could rock my world or even walk me to class, if he even shared the same sexual preference as me. LOL. I never found my soul mate while wandering around the campus but I knew it a lot better than anyone. I did see a lot of good looking straight guys though, to which I had fun with my imagination. Ahem, anyway… On a different scenario… paatransit’s operators have messed up. I won’t bore you all with the details but here's the shimmy. They mess up the times, even when I use the relay service and the relayoperator repeats the times, dates, etc. drivers have left and they didn't get out and call my name, etc. you all have been there, so that's all I will say on the subject. I don't know about you but I don’t want to have those things happen. The Google car is the perfect solution, and by the way, it's here, on the market, in Nevada already. What Google is doing me installing their software and stuff onto cars made by manufacturers? Toyota has three cars equipped and rolling down Nevada streets already. Professors use it, etc. I'll send you all coverage on it later, but it's here, this want happen in another 20 years from now, because they have actually started making the car in 2011, two years ago. The first public showing of the car was in 2012. With the cloud and stuff, seriously, it updates itself so there isn't much more work needed on the software. Everything is cloud based, so I update itself, ahem, through the cloud. Smile. If you live in Nevada, You’ve seen a Google car beside you, you just haven’t noticed. Very rich people are using these cars already. It's here now, at least, in Nevada anyway. Anyway, moving on to my original point… another thing… Now, it's the law of the blind to live in a place of public transportation. It's a requirement. If you’re blind, and if you want to have a good job then live here where there's a lot of public transportation and good Paratransit, because, if you want to be working then what other voice do you have. A lot of jobs, even in this day, can't be done at home…a and most people won’t have a sighted partner for a long time. By the way, side note, I will. Smile. One day. I’d really not to be bound by that catch 22. By the way, sometimes, it's a hindrance to take backup measures, what I mean by this is, say, for example, always take cash incase Paratransit fails you so bad you resort to cabs, always memorize the bus routes unless you want to be lost when, and if, Paratransit leaves you past their driving times. I don’t want to have to be taking these cautious measures just because I'm blind and there's no other option. Sighted people don't have to. I always do but I’d love to just call upon my car, hop in, and go if I ever get in a jam and need to get somewhere fast. Also, it would be nice to not schedule 24 hours ahead of time to go someplace fun, etc. I want to just go and not be restricted. Seriously, this is the best thing that has ever happened. Insurance, cost, and possible technological failures aside, I'm behind this car with every bone in my body because it will allow me, as both a blind journalist and a blind person who has fun every once in a while, so many leverages, pivoting me up on the same leave as sighted peers, or coworkers. By the way, the technology for failsafe exists. If a malfunction in the software happens the car will audibly tell us, the blind driver, and then pull over. You'll have to call the appropriate person, if it's really bad. But again, the software is working on cloud technology so it will download the needed repairs automatically. If it's a minor issue then it will ask you if you want to pull over to resolve it. If you want to read the same news I've been reading then message me off list. A CNN reporter commented on seeing one in Nevada pull into the parking space reserved for principals as opposed to teachers. Trust me, it's here now, and I'm so excited I'm squirming! From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 13 16:35:20 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:35:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I would insist they print out on the braille printer. I was provided electronic versions of my texts and I told them it is much slower to use screen magnification and asked them to large print them on the copy machine on 11x17 paper which they did. Do they have an ocr scnner so they can scan it them print out in braille? On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Helga wrote: > Hi Kaiti, What I meant to say is that is not that I don't like reading the > book on audio format or electronic Braille format. What I meant was that > the reason that I prefer reading books as a Braille books format is > becauseI use to read them that way, and I also use to read them in audeo > when I was in high school. Just to let you know, reading Braille is > something that I learned before ever learning how to use a computer or a > note taker, I actually was not born blind, I just became blind five years > ago when I was 16 years old, and Braille is something that I really enjoy > reading from that time. I actually have a BrailleNote device that I use to > read my class notes, but I just find out that it got broken today when I > called tecknical support of the company that selds it because it wasn't > working yesterday very well. And I called my DBS counceler today and I told > her about this situation and she told me that she would send the > BrailleNote to be repaired, but she also told me that this probably would > take weeks or months for the machine to come back to me. So that means that > I would not have my BrailleNote device in order to read my school notes. > Actually, my DBS counceller told me that she would send my device to be > repaired the week after next week because she is going to be out of her > office next week. I'm now actually taikeing my Literature class, and I use > my book as a PDF for mat that the Dissability department provides, but I > don't really like it because it's bnot Braille, and I told my Adviser from > college about this, and she told me that she is not going to be printing > the stories from my book in Braille for me from the Braille printer that > the school owns because I have a BrailleNote she says. I really think > reading books from a note taker is not enough because it takes more time > to find the pages, rather I think that is better to have it as a Braille > book. That's my opinion, What do you think about it? Thanks so much for > listening to me. I'll really appreciat it! :) > > -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:23 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class > > Hi, > > Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your > teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. > > As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or > any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could > read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it > on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in > brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the > site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have > an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the > fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really > don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always > download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that > would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. > > On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > >> Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. >> I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're >> using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able >> to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other >> editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that >> the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that >> the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your >> teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find >> that somewhere. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Helga" > To: > Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class >> >> Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English >> composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, >> May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her >> if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using >> in class, she told me that the name of the book is called >> Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me >> unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a >> new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille >> version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille >> format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my >> prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature >> classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in >> Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that >> this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my >> book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was >> just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it >> costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you >> guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks >> so much! >> >> >> > > -- > Kaiti > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 13 16:40:04 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:40:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130413000241.01c8e108@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412103457.02001c10@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413000241.01c8e108@comcast.net> Message-ID: Personally if I bust my ass to have a career in which I can afford something and that is what I chose to buy, I see nothing wrong with that. That is like saying people who can afford nice vacations shouldn't do it or buy a nice house. You cannot put a price tag on freedom being limited to where a bus goes or when family and friend's can drive you is not true freedom. And who are these friend's and family? I don't have people who are sitting around waiting to drive me to appointments. My fiance will drive me to appointment because eh feel it is stupid for me to waste 4 hours to take the bus but the is a cost and that is he has to use vacation time form work to do it. I want to go where I want to go and when I want to go. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 1:01 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Evening, Josh, > > Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a > substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably realistic > venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way to bleed one's > coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... As if such an > Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters within a big picture? > After all, people are suffering, even dying in our world quite > unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and sisters continues > being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and > policies designed to oppress us grind on, unabated. > And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? > Have a good day! > Carly > >> >> >> >> > Hello, >> >> > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to >> events and >> >> > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've >> never >> >> > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly >> like >> >> > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy >> breakings >> >> > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >> constantly face. >> >> > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >> mom >> >> > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >> opinion. >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >> >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >> >> > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> >> > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> >> > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> > >> >> > Chris Nusbaum >> >> > >> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> > >> >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> >> >> >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement >> without >> >> >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't >> have all >> >> >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing >> doesn't >> >> >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he >> dares to >> >> >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher >> nusbaum >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Kirt, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, >> we >> >> >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> >> >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >> prototypes. >> >> >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over >> by >> >> >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >> someone >> >> >>> reposted here mentioned. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> >> >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >> such as >> >> >>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >> town in >> >> >>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> >> >>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> >> >>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. >> For >> >> >>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >> might >> >> >>> give me in this area. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Just my thoughts, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Chris Nusbaum >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> > Patrick, >> >> >>> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> >> >>> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >> that >> >> >>> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> >> >>> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be >> able >> >> >>> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> where >> >> >>> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> >> >>> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >> probably >> >> >>> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before >> it was >> >> >>> > viable to the general public. >> >> >>> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >> have >> >> >>> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >> landing. >> >> >>> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> attention >> >> >>> > in the event something goes wrong. >> >> >>> > Carley, >> >> >>> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >> about >> >> >>> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >> public >> >> >>> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes >> to >> >> >>> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >> totally >> >> >>> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> safe, >> >> >>> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> away that >> >> >>> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any >> time >> >> >>> > soon. >> >> >>> > Best, >> >> >>> > Kirt >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> >>> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >> >> >>> On Behalf Of Carly >> >> >>> >> Mihalakis >> >> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >> National >> >> >>> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Hi, List, >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >> folk seem >> >> >>> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >> fellow >> >> >>> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that >> crap >> >> >>> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of >> ever >> >> >>> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles >> personal >> >> >>> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, >> train, or >> >> >>> >> friend/driver cannot? >> >> >>> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >> oughta be >> >> >>> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> >>> >> So no, on the car! >> >> >>> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> >>> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >> major >> >> >>> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people >> in >> >> >>> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >> trust us >> >> >>> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >> >>> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >> will >> >> >>> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >> convincing >> >> >>> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>> >> > >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Hello, >> >> >>> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >> already >> >> >>> >>> going >> >> >>> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >> nothing >> >> >>> >>> wrong >> >> >>> >> with >> >> >>> >>> backing both cars. >> >> >>> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> >>> >> >> >>> control or >> >> >>> >>> a >> >> >>> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >> reader >> >> >>> >>> to >> >> >>> >> read >> >> >>> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >> very >> >> >>> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >> mainstream and >> >> >>> >>> will >> >> >>> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> >> >>> mainstreem >>> and >> >> >>> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and >> no >>> >> >> >>> screen. >> >> >>> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >> most >>> >> >> >>> common >> >> >>> >>> tasks. >> >> >>> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >> very >> >> >>> >>> little >> >> >>> >>> or >> >> >>> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >> driveway or >> >> >>> >>> country >> >> >>> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could >> be >> >> >>> >>> completely >> >> >>> >>> entered into the database. >> >> >>> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >> >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >> invent a >> >> >>> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >> convince >> >> >>> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >> >>> >>> superior. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Hello, >> >> >>> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >> >>> >>> into account >> >> >>> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >> but >> >> >>> >>> if the >> >> >>> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> >> >>> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >> >>> >>> could even >> >> >>> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would >> take >> >> >>> >>> the >> >> >>> >>> challenge. >> >> >>> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> >>> From: Justin Young >> >> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >> >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >> >>> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >> >>> >>> interesting >> >> >>> >>> project. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >> roads >> >> >>> >>> after >> >> >>> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> >> >>> >>> nation's >> >> >>> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> >> >>> >>> in >> >> >>> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >> >>> >>> the >> >> >>> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >> for >> >> >>> >>> the >> >> >>> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >> law >> >> >>> >>> went >> >> >>> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >> >>> >>> lasers, >> >> >>> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> >> >>> >>> cars to >> >> >>> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >> >>> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >> >>> >>> professor and >> >> >>> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> >> >>> >>> and >> >> >>> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according >> to >> >> >>> >>> the >> >> >>> >>> company. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >> >>> >>> director >> >> >>> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> >> >>> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> >> >>> >>> the >> >> >>> >>> public, the DMV said. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >> >>> >>> other >> >> >>> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >> >>> >>> Through >> >> >>> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >> >>> >>> vehicle >> >> >>> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly >> and >> >> >>> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> >> >>> >>> Alex >> >> >>> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's >> autonomous >> >> >>> >>> car >> >> >>> >>> legislation. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses >> in >> >> >>> >>> Nevada, >> >> >>> >>> the DMV said. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> >>> info for >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> jty727%40gmai> nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> > >> >> >>> >>> l.com >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> >> >>> >>> for >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> brandonkeithb> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > >> >> >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> >> >>> >>> for nabs-l: >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> sweetpeareade> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > >> >> >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> brandonkeithb> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > >> >> >>> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> sweetpeareade> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > >> >> >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> carlymih%40comcast.net> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >> > >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> justin.williams2%40gmail> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.**williams2%40gmail >> > >> >> >>> >> .com >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> >>> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> >>> > nabs-l: >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>> carlymih%40comcast.net> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >> > >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/** >> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> > >> >> > >> >> > ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**** >> sgermano%40asu.edu >> > 40asu.edu >> > >> >> > >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> jlester8462%40pccuaedu.**onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 13 16:46:09 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:46:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] my rambling thoughts on the Google car In-Reply-To: <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> Message-ID: Great post Robert! On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Well here's what I believe, these are just my beliefs, obviously, and > general things I've noticed as a blind person. > > I don't know about you but I've ever been really early or really late to > appointments, and more times than not I have had both instances happen. I > wait for a really long time, sometimes out in the heat or cold because the > building hasn’t opened up even thoughmade sure to schedule my ride for a > certain time, or, I'm blubbering and stuttering apologies for my tardiness > and then explaining that I use public transportation, thus taking an excuse > for myself even though it's a valid one and one that I have to make to my > boss,, or in my case, my editor because I didn't get to an event on time, > thus rendering the story I was going to write useless because, a fellow > sighted journalist, with his own car has independently, and with no > reliance, made it there before I have. For school I've had to arrive on > campus an extra hour earlier because Paratransit is so unreliable. > Sometimes, even though I scheduled to get picked up two hours ahead of time > it would take that long to get to school, and I have arrived at the start > of class. Sometimes, I get there within 30 minutes leaving me to wonder > around campus for a class that didn't start until two hours later. On a > personal note I used that time to venture around the campus, mental > mapping, and also keeping a vigil eye out for any sexy black man who could > rock my world or even walk me to class, if he even shared the same sexual > preference as me. LOL. I never found my soul mate while wandering around > the campus but I knew it a lot better than anyone. I did see a lot of good > looking straight guys though, to which I had fun with my imagination. Ahem, > anyway… > > On a different scenario… paatransit’s operators have messed up. I won’t > bore you all with the details but here's the shimmy. They mess up the > times, even when I use the relay service and the relayoperator repeats the > times, dates, etc. drivers have left and they didn't get out and call my > name, etc. you all have been there, so that's all I will say on the > subject. I don't know about you but I don’t want to have those things > happen. The Google car is the perfect solution, and by the way, it's here, > on the market, in Nevada already. What Google is doing me installing their > software and stuff onto cars made by manufacturers? Toyota has three cars > equipped and rolling down Nevada streets already. Professors use it, etc. > I'll send you all coverage on it later, but it's here, this want happen in > another 20 years from now, because they have actually started making the > car in 2011, two years ago. The first public showing of the car was in > 2012. With the cloud and stuff, seriously, it updates itself so there isn't > much more work needed on the software. Everything is cloud based, so I > update itself, ahem, through the cloud. Smile. If you live in Nevada, > You’ve seen a Google car beside you, you just haven’t noticed. Very rich > people are using these cars already. It's here now, at least, in Nevada > anyway. Anyway, moving on to my original point… another thing… > > Now, it's the law of the blind to live in a place of public > transportation. It's a requirement. If you’re blind, and if you want to > have a good job then live here where there's a lot of public transportation > and good Paratransit, because, if you want to be working then what other > voice do you have. A lot of jobs, even in this day, can't be done at home…a > and most people won’t have a sighted partner for a long time. By the way, > side note, I will. Smile. One day. I’d really not to be bound by that catch > 22. > > By the way, sometimes, it's a hindrance to take backup measures, what I > mean by this is, say, for example, always take cash incase Paratransit > fails you so bad you resort to cabs, always memorize the bus routes unless > you want to be lost when, and if, Paratransit leaves you past their driving > times. I don’t want to have to be taking these cautious measures just > because I'm blind and there's no other option. Sighted people don't have > to. I always do but I’d love to just call upon my car, hop in, and go if I > ever get in a jam and need to get somewhere fast. > > Also, it would be nice to not schedule 24 hours ahead of time to go > someplace fun, etc. I want to just go and not be restricted. Seriously, > this is the best thing that has ever happened. Insurance, cost, and > possible technological failures aside, I'm behind this car with every bone > in my body because it will allow me, as both a blind journalist and a blind > person who has fun every once in a while, so many leverages, pivoting me up > on the same leave as sighted peers, or coworkers. By the way, the > technology for failsafe exists. If a malfunction in the software happens > the car will audibly tell us, the blind driver, and then pull over. You'll > have to call the appropriate person, if it's really bad. But again, the > software is working on cloud technology so it will download the needed > repairs automatically. If it's a minor issue then it will ask you if you > want to pull over to resolve it. If you want to read the same news I've > been reading then message me off list. A CNN reporter commented on seeing > one in Nevada pull into the parking space reserved for principals as > opposed to teachers. Trust me, it's here now, and I'm so excited I'm > squirming! > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 16:47:17 2013 From: mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com (Mauricio Almeida) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:47:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412103457.02001c10@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413000241.01c8e108@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0BC4CE64-478A-4390-BCE7-D450F9C5BC0C@gmail.com> agreed, People tend on thinking that blind people need to spend money in a certain way, act, or not, according to standards, for whatever reasons they think they have to justify such, say, under applicable thoughts. blind people are like everyone else. I for instance don't lead a consulting group like I do not to spend my money as i desire simply because people think i shouldn't. I also regard independence as, doing what you need to, in the way you feel like it. A lot of people in the federation over rate independence as a way of bolstering self acceptance, but that's a conduct i personally don't agree with or endorse. Mauricio On Apr 13, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > Personally if I bust my ass to have a career in which I can afford > something and that is what I chose to buy, I see nothing wrong with that. > That is like saying people who can afford nice vacations shouldn't do it or > buy a nice house. You cannot put a price tag on freedom being limited to > where a bus goes or when family and friend's can drive you is not true > freedom. > > And who are these friend's and family? I don't have people who are sitting > around waiting to drive me to appointments. My fiance will drive me to > appointment because eh feel it is stupid for me to waste 4 hours to take > the bus but the is a cost and that is he has to use vacation time form work > to do it. > > I want to go where I want to go and when I want to go. > > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 1:01 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> Evening, Josh, >> >> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably realistic >> venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way to bleed one's >> coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... As if such an >> Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters within a big picture? >> After all, people are suffering, even dying in our world quite >> unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and sisters continues >> being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and >> policies designed to oppress us grind on, unabated. >> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >> Have a good day! >> Carly >> >>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to >>> events and >>>>>> shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've >>> never >>>>>> been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly >>> like >>>>>> being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy >>> breakings >>>>>> every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >>> constantly face. >>>>>> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >>> mom >>>>>> as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >>> opinion. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >>>>>> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >>>>>> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement >>> without >>>>>>> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't >>> have all >>>>>>> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing >>> doesn't >>>>>>> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he >>> dares to >>>>>>> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher >>> nusbaum >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, >>> we >>>>>>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>>>>>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >>> prototypes. >>>>>>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over >>> by >>>>>>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >>> someone >>>>>>>> reposted here mentioned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>>>>>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >>> such as >>>>>>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >>> town in >>>>>>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>>>>>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>>>>>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. >>> For >>>>>>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >>> might >>>>>>>> give me in this area. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >>> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>>>>>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >>> that >>>>>>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>>>>>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be >>> able >>>>>>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >>> where >>>>>>>>> the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>>>>>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>> probably >>>>>>>>> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before >>> it was >>>>>>>>> viable to the general public. >>>>>>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >>> have >>>>>>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >>> landing. >>>>>>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>> attention >>>>>>>>> in the event something goes wrong. >>>>>>>>> Carley, >>>>>>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>> about >>>>>>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >>> public >>>>>>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes >>> to >>>>>>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >>> totally >>>>>>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >>> safe, >>>>>>>>> at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >>> away that >>>>>>>>> I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any >>> time >>>>>>>>> soon. >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Carly >>>>>>>>>> Mihalakis >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>> National >>>>>>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >>> folk seem >>>>>>>>>> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >>> fellow >>>>>>>>>> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that >>> crap >>>>>>>>>> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of >>> ever >>>>>>>>>> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles >>> personal >>>>>>>>>> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, >>> train, or >>>>>>>>>> friend/driver cannot? >>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >>> oughta be >>>>>>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>>>>>>>> So no, on the car! >>>>>>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >>> major >>>>>>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people >>> in >>>>>>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >>> trust us >>>>>>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>>>>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >>> will >>>>>>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>> convincing >>>>>>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >>> already >>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >>> nothing >>>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> backing both cars. >>>>>>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>>>>> >>>>>>>> control or >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>> reader >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >>> very >>>>>>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >>> mainstream and >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>>>>>>> mainstreem >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and >>> no >>> >>>>>>>> screen. >>>>>>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >>> most >>> >>>>>>>> common >>>>>>>>>>> tasks. >>>>>>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >>> very >>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>> driveway or >>>>>>>>>>> country >>>>>>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could >>> be >>>>>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>>>> entered into the database. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >>> invent a >>>>>>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>> convince >>>>>>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>>>>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>>>>>>>>>> into account >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >>> but >>>>>>>>>>> if the >>>>>>>>>>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>>>>>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>>>>>>>>>> could even >>>>>>>>>>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would >>> take >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> challenge. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>>>>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>> project. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >>> roads >>>>>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>>>>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>>>>>>>>>> nation's >>>>>>>>>>> first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >>> law >>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>>>>>>>>> lasers, >>>>>>>>>>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >>>>>>>>>>> cars to >>>>>>>>>>> help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>>>>>>>>> professor and >>>>>>>>>>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according >>> to >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>>>>>>>>> director >>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>>>>>>>>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> public, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>>>>>>>>> Through >>>>>>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>>>>>>>>> vehicle >>>>>>>>>>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >>>>>>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>>>>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's >>> autonomous >>>>>>>>>>> car >>>>>>>>>>> legislation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses >>> in >>>>>>>>>>> Nevada, >>>>>>>>>>> the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> jty727%40gmai>> nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> brandonkeithb>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> sweetpeareade>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> brandonkeithb>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> sweetpeareade>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.**williams2%40gmail >>>> >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/** >>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**** >>> sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> 40asu.edu >>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> jlester8462%40pccuaedu.**onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com From mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 16:50:45 2013 From: mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com (Mauricio Almeida) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:50:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> Message-ID: <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> AMEN. It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under elaborated rational. Mauricio On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list composed of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful careers. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> Good morning, Suzanne, >> >> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams wrote: >>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus v. >>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano >>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have >>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more >>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been >>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I >>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only >>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to >>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches >>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get >>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give >>> me a Google car!! >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >>>> reposted here mentioned. >>>> >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >>>> give me in this area. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Patrick, >>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >>>>> before it was viable to the general public. >>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. >>>>> Carley, >>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >>>>> trains any time soon. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >>>>>> Mihalakis >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having >>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you >>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>>>> So no, on the car! >>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>>> going >>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >>>>>>> wrong >>>>>> with >>>>>>> backing both cars. >>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>>>>>> control >>>> or >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>>>>>> reader to >>>>>> read >>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream >>>>>>> and >>>> will >>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>>>>>> mainstreem >>>> and >>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >>>> screen. >>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>>>>>> common tasks. >>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>>> little >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >>>> country >>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >>>>>>> completely entered into the database. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >>>>>>> happen very soon. >>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google >>>>>>> would take the challenge. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>>>>>> project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday >>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >>>>>>> the company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>>>>>> Through >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state >>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's >>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >>>> .net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>> 0gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 13 17:00:22 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 10:00:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good income and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we as blind individuals cannot make a good living. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: > AMEN. > It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under elaborated > rational. > > Mauricio > On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > > > This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial > living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement > offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list composed > of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful careers. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > > >> Good morning, Suzanne, > >> > >> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough > for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long > it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams > wrote: > >>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus > v. > >>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > >>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and > have > >>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or > more > >>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has > been > >>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I > >>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to > only > >>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the > freedom to > >>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that > matches > >>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get > >>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. > Give > >>> me a Google car!! > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < > >>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Kirt, > >>>> > >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > >>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > >>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > >>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > >>>> reposted here mentioned. > >>>> > >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > >>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > >>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > >>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > >>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > >>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > >>>> give me in this area. > >>>> > >>>> Just my thoughts, > >>>> > >>>> Chris Nusbaum > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Patrick, > >>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > >>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > >>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > >>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > >>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to > >>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > >>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were > >>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > >>>>> before it was viable to the general public. > >>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > >>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > >>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close > >>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. > >>>>> Carley, > >>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > >>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > >>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > >>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > >>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and > >>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough > >>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > >>>>> trains any time soon. > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> Kirt > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > >>>>>> Mihalakis > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi, List, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > >>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their > >>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having > >>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about > >>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > >>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you > >>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? > >>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > >>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >>>>>> So no, on the car! > >>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > >>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > >>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > >>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > >>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > >>>> going > >>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > >>>>>>> wrong > >>>>>> with > >>>>>>> backing both cars. > >>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > >>>>>>> control > >>>> or > >>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > >>>>>>> reader to > >>>>>> read > >>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > >>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream > >>>>>>> and > >>>> will > >>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > >>>>>>> mainstreem > >>>> and > >>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > >>>> screen. > >>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > >>>>>>> common tasks. > >>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > >>>> little > >>>>>>> or > >>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > >>>> country > >>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >>>>>>> completely entered into the database. > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > >>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >>>>>>> superior. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be > >>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will > >>>>>>> happen very soon. > >>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google > >>>>>>> would take the challenge. > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Justin Young > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > >>>>>>> project. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday > >>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That > >>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually > >>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >>>>>>> the company. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has > >>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the > >>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >>>>>>> Through > >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more > >>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state > >>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's > >>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > >>>>>>> l.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > >>>> .net > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >>>> 0gmail > >>>>>> .com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > >>>> mail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > >>>> mail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From kingettr at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 17:55:27 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:55:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] android phones and upgrades. In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> Thank you! I have a small question to ask. Does anyone know if you can upgrade the android software? I want to get an android phone from straight talk but they all run android 2.6. can I upgrade that? the iPhone just won’t work for my c needs. Even with the assisted touch I just need a physical keyboard to do typing with when I text people, etc. I have an old nokia phone from straight talk that runs TALKS, and I pay $34 a month for Verizon service, because it's covered by those towers as well but I want to come into the 21^st centaury, loll. Can you upgrade the android OS even after you buy it from a vender? From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:00:45 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:00:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Do you have a disability services office at the school who could scan the book and print it out in Braille for you? >From what I remember of English composition II, which I took using an earlier edition of Everything's an Argument, the book isn't really a literature book. It's a book that is supposed to teach you how to write persuasive essays and research papers. On 4/13/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I would insist they print out on the braille printer. I was provided > electronic versions of my texts and I told them it is much slower to use > screen magnification and asked them to large print them on the copy machine > on 11x17 paper which they did. Do they have an ocr scnner so they can scan > it them print out in braille? > > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Helga > wrote: > >> Hi Kaiti, What I meant to say is that is not that I don't like reading >> the >> book on audio format or electronic Braille format. What I meant was that >> the reason that I prefer reading books as a Braille books format is >> becauseI use to read them that way, and I also use to read them in audeo >> when I was in high school. Just to let you know, reading Braille is >> something that I learned before ever learning how to use a computer or a >> note taker, I actually was not born blind, I just became blind five years >> ago when I was 16 years old, and Braille is something that I really enjoy >> reading from that time. I actually have a BrailleNote device that I use >> to >> read my class notes, but I just find out that it got broken today when I >> called tecknical support of the company that selds it because it wasn't >> working yesterday very well. And I called my DBS counceler today and I >> told >> her about this situation and she told me that she would send the >> BrailleNote to be repaired, but she also told me that this probably would >> take weeks or months for the machine to come back to me. So that means >> that >> I would not have my BrailleNote device in order to read my school notes. >> Actually, my DBS counceller told me that she would send my device to be >> repaired the week after next week because she is going to be out of her >> office next week. I'm now actually taikeing my Literature class, and I >> use >> my book as a PDF for mat that the Dissability department provides, but I >> don't really like it because it's bnot Braille, and I told my Adviser >> from >> college about this, and she told me that she is not going to be printing >> the stories from my book in Braille for me from the Braille printer that >> the school owns because I have a BrailleNote she says. I really think >> reading books from a note taker is not enough because it takes more time >> to find the pages, rather I think that is better to have it as a Braille >> book. That's my opinion, What do you think about it? Thanks so much for >> listening to me. I'll really appreciat it! :) >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:23 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class >> >> Hi, >> >> Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your >> teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. >> >> As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or >> any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could >> read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it >> on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in >> brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the >> site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have >> an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the >> fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really >> don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always >> download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that >> would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. >> >> On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >>> Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. >>> I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're >>> using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able >>> to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other >>> editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that >>> the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that >>> the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your >>> teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find >>> that somewhere. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Helga" >> To: >> Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class >>> >>> Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English >>> composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, >>> May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her >>> if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using >>> in class, she told me that the name of the book is called >>> Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me >>> unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a >>> new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille >>> version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille >>> format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my >>> prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature >>> classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in >>> Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that >>> this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my >>> book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was >>> just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it >>> costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you >>> guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks >>> so much! >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:01:54 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 14:01:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! Message-ID: Hi all, I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your help. Thanks so much in advance! My name is Katie Wang; I’m a Psychology graduate student at Yale University. I’m conducting an on-line study on how blind and visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate. If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take you directly to the survey. https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for your time and assistance! From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:02:52 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 14:02:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] android phones and upgrades. In-Reply-To: <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> I believe android is up to version 4.2, which you can get from certain carriers such as Verizon and AT&T. If you are interested in getting an iPhone, you can still use a Bluetooth keyboard instead of the touchscreen. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2013, at 1:56 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Thank you! I have a small question to ask. Does anyone know if you can upgrade the android software? I want to get an android phone from straight talk but they all run android 2.6. can I upgrade that? the iPhone just won’t work for my c needs. Even with the assisted touch I just need a physical keyboard to do typing with when I text people, etc. I have an old nokia phone from straight talk that runs TALKS, and I pay $34 a month for Verizon service, because it's covered by those towers as well but I want to come into the 21^st centaury, loll. Can you upgrade the android OS even after you buy it from a vender? > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:10:22 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 14:10:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000501ce3872$2af4b330$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> You mentioned your DBS councilor. Who is your councilor? If you email me off list I can probley help you. My email address is joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Do you have a disability services office at the school who could scan the book and print it out in Braille for you? >From what I remember of English composition II, which I took using an earlier edition of Everything's an Argument, the book isn't really a literature book. It's a book that is supposed to teach you how to write persuasive essays and research papers. On 4/13/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I would insist they print out on the braille printer. I was provided > electronic versions of my texts and I told them it is much slower to use > screen magnification and asked them to large print them on the copy > machine > on 11x17 paper which they did. Do they have an ocr scnner so they can scan > it them print out in braille? > > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Helga > wrote: > >> Hi Kaiti, What I meant to say is that is not that I don't like reading >> the >> book on audio format or electronic Braille format. What I meant was that >> the reason that I prefer reading books as a Braille books format is >> becauseI use to read them that way, and I also use to read them in audeo >> when I was in high school. Just to let you know, reading Braille is >> something that I learned before ever learning how to use a computer or a >> note taker, I actually was not born blind, I just became blind five years >> ago when I was 16 years old, and Braille is something that I really enjoy >> reading from that time. I actually have a BrailleNote device that I use >> to >> read my class notes, but I just find out that it got broken today when I >> called tecknical support of the company that selds it because it wasn't >> working yesterday very well. And I called my DBS counceler today and I >> told >> her about this situation and she told me that she would send the >> BrailleNote to be repaired, but she also told me that this probably would >> take weeks or months for the machine to come back to me. So that means >> that >> I would not have my BrailleNote device in order to read my school notes. >> Actually, my DBS counceller told me that she would send my device to be >> repaired the week after next week because she is going to be out of her >> office next week. I'm now actually taikeing my Literature class, and I >> use >> my book as a PDF for mat that the Dissability department provides, but I >> don't really like it because it's bnot Braille, and I told my Adviser >> from >> college about this, and she told me that she is not going to be printing >> the stories from my book in Braille for me from the Braille printer that >> the school owns because I have a BrailleNote she says. I really think >> reading books from a note taker is not enough because it takes more time >> to find the pages, rather I think that is better to have it as a Braille >> book. That's my opinion, What do you think about it? Thanks so much for >> listening to me. I'll really appreciat it! :) >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:23 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class >> >> Hi, >> >> Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your >> teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. >> >> As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or >> any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could >> read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it >> on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in >> brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the >> site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have >> an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the >> fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really >> don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always >> download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that >> would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. >> >> On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >>> Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. >>> I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're >>> using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able >>> to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other >>> editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that >>> the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that >>> the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your >>> teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find >>> that somewhere. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Helga" >> To: >> Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class >>> >>> Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English >>> composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, >>> May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her >>> if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using >>> in class, she told me that the name of the book is called >>> Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me >>> unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a >>> new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille >>> version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille >>> format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my >>> prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature >>> classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in >>> Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that >>> this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my >>> book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was >>> just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it >>> costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you >>> guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks >>> so much! >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From kingettr at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:15:22 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:15:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] android phones and upgrades. In-Reply-To: <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> Thank you very much but I can't afford any of those carriers at all. I use straight talk because they avaccessible phones and I only have to pay $45 for unlimited everything. I also can't afford an iPhone at this point,, and, sheepishly, it won’t fit in some of my pants pockets. My friend has an iPhone 4S that I played with for a day. Siri is my new BFF! LOL. I can only deal with the lowend companies at the moment with boost mobile and tings like that because, I want to be able to talk and text, especially because of my speech impediment, text for a low price. So far straight talk has all that, and not to mention good cell phone service. I don't have to be bound by a contract, etc. so it works for me. I might be getting an I pad soon, to which I will be extremely happy about! If there's some way that I can upgrade without switching to a carrier that won’t cost me a lot of money to talk, text, and look at email I’d appreciate knowing about it. by the way I love the apple Bluetooth keybords but I wish they had rechargeable ones. From kingettr at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:15:48 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:15:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] android phones and upgrades. In-Reply-To: <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <5169A0D4.4010802@gmail.com> Thank you very much but I can't afford any of those carriers at all. I use straight talk because they avaccessible phones and I only have to pay $45 for unlimited everything. I also can't afford an iPhone at this point,, and, sheepishly, it won’t fit in some of my pants pockets. My friend has an iPhone 4S that I played with for a day. Siri is my new BFF! LOL. I can only deal with the lowend companies at the moment with boost mobile and tings like that because, I want to be able to talk and text, especially because of my speech impediment, text for a low price. So far straight talk has all that, and not to mention good cell phone service. I don't have to be bound by a contract, etc. so it works for me. I might be getting an I pad soon, to which I will be extremely happy about! If there's some way that I can upgrade without switching to a carrier that won’t cost me a lot of money to talk, text, and look at email I’d appreciate knowing about it. by the way I love the apple Bluetooth keybords but I wish they had rechargeable ones. On 4/13/2013 1:02 PM, christopher nusbaum wrote: > I believe android is up to version 4.2, which you can get from certain > carriers such as Verizon and AT&T. If you are interested in getting an > iPhone, you can still use a Bluetooth keyboard instead of the > touchscreen. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 13, 2013, at 1:56 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> Thank you! I have a small question to ask. Does anyone know if you can upgrade the android software? I want to get an android phone from straight talk but they all run android 2.6. can I upgrade that? the iPhone just won’t work for my c needs. Even with the assisted touch I just need a physical keyboard to do typing with when I text people, etc. I have an old nokia phone from straight talk that runs TALKS, and I pay $34 a month for Verizon service, because it's covered by those towers as well but I want to come into the 21^st centaury, loll. Can you upgrade the android OS even after you buy it from a vender? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kingettr%40gmail.com /*See below for writing links, social media links, and other writing archives */ *Click here to see my writing archive * *Click here to view my website/ / * */ /* */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ * *Tel: 850 764 2161 * Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube WordPress Blog RSS My latest comedy review: ‘Words With Girls’: Gay, Ironic and Masterful My latest Audio Description review: Audio Description review: How Long Will I Cry? (play) WordPress My latest post in my blog:Xbox 720 Accessibility Fears Read more | My blog Share on Facebook  Share on Twitter Get this email app! Latest post: Reminder: play: The Birthday Party @ Sun Apr 14, 2013 1pm - 5pm (Robert’s agenda calendar). ... Like · Comment · Share Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours From samnelson1 at verizon.net Sat Apr 13 18:55:12 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:55:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301ce3878$6e6b4d80$4b41e880$@verizon.net> Hi Katie, I filled out your survey, just so you know. I hope you get more responses soon. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:02 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! Hi all, I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your help. Thanks so much in advance! My name is Katie Wang; I'm a Psychology graduate student at Yale University. I'm conducting an on-line study on how blind and visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate. If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take you directly to the survey. https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for your time and assistance! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sat Apr 13 19:06:51 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:06:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: Hey!! Joshua!. I have a BrailleNote Apex. It's a Braille Keyboard. Yes!, only the dot 4 of the BrailleNote broke, but if one dot doesn't work I can't use the BrailleNote at all, and I already save inportant things in there. I think I save my entire life in there. What I mean is that I save books that I download from Bard, class notes, papers, assignments, and important emails and addresses. Yeah, I absolutely heard of the Pack Mate before. Before Division of Blind Services bought me the BrailleNote, I went and check the other machines, and one was the Pack Mate. Isn't that true that the Pack Mate involves more computer knowledge than the BrailleNote? I was just wondering because does the reason I didn't choose it. Because on that time I didn't know how to use a computer, I just learn how to use the computer one year ago. Thanks for listening to me!. God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 5:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi Helga! First of all, welcome to the list! Hmmm! Your Braille Note broke? I'm a proud Pac Mate user! Please check into getting one, because Pac Mates are better quality than Braille Notes. Freedom Scientific makes those. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi Kaiti, What I meant to say is that is not that I don't like reading the book on audio format or electronic Braille format. What I meant was that the reason that I prefer reading books as a Braille books format is becauseI use to read them that way, and I also use to read them in audeo when I was in high school. Just to let you know, reading Braille is something that I learned before ever learning how to use a computer or a note taker, I actually was not born blind, I just became blind five years ago when I was 16 years old, and Braille is something that I really enjoy reading from that time. I actually have a BrailleNote device that I use to read my class notes, but I just find out that it got broken today when I called tecknical support of the company that selds it because it wasn't working yesterday very well. And I called my DBS counceler today and I told her about this situation and she told me that she would send the BrailleNote to be repaired, but she also told me that this probably would take weeks or months for the machine to come back to me. So that means that I would not have my BrailleNote device in order to read my school notes. Actually, my DBS counceller told me that she would send my device to be repaired the week after next week because she is going to be out of her office next week. I'm now actually taikeing my Literature class, and I use my book as a PDF for mat that the Dissability department provides, but I don't really like it because it's bnot Braille, and I told my Adviser from college about this, and she told me that she is not going to be printing the stories from my book in Braille for me from the Braille printer that the school owns because I have a BrailleNote she says. I really think reading books from a note taker is not enough because it takes more time to find the pages, rather I think that is better to have it as a Braille book. That's my opinion, What do you think about it? Thanks so much for listening to me. I'll really appreciat it! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi, Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. > I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're > using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able > to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other > editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that > the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that > the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your > teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find > that somewhere. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helga" To: Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class > > Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English > composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, > May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her > if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using > in class, she told me that the name of the book is called > Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me > unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a > new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille > version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille > format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my > prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature > classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in > Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that > this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my > book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was > just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it > costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you > guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks > so much! > > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Apr 13 19:30:08 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:30:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> Hi, Suzanne, I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income disparity.At 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good income >and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we as >blind individuals cannot make a good living. > > >On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < >mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: > > > AMEN. > > It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under elaborated > > rational. > > > > Mauricio > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > > > > > This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial > > living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement > > offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list composed > > of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful careers. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis > > wrote: > > > > > >> Good morning, Suzanne, > > >> > > >> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough > > for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long > > it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams > > wrote: > > >>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus > > v. > > >>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > > Germano > > >>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM > > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>> > > >>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and > > have > > >>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or > > more > > >>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has > > been > > >>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I > > >>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to > > only > > >>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the > > freedom to > > >>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that > > matches > > >>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get > > >>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. > > Give > > >>> me a Google car!! > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < > > >>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Kirt, > > >>>> > > >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > > >>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > > >>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > > >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > > >>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > > >>>> reposted here mentioned. > > >>>> > > >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > > >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > > >>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > > >>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > > >>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > > >>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > > >>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > > >>>> give me in this area. > > >>>> > > >>>> Just my thoughts, > > >>>> > > >>>> Chris Nusbaum > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>> > > >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > > > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Patrick, > > >>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > > >>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > > >>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > > >>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > > >>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to > > >>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > > >>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were > > >>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > > >>>>> before it was viable to the general public. > > >>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > > >>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > > >>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close > > >>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. > > >>>>> Carley, > > >>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > > >>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > > >>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > > >>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > > >>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and > > >>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough > > >>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > > >>>>> trains any time soon. > > >>>>> Best, > > >>>>> Kirt > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > > >>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly > > >>>>>> Mihalakis > > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > > >>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi, List, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > > >>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their > > >>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having > > >>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about > > >>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > > >>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you > > >>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? > > >>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > > >>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > > >>>>>> So no, on the car! > > >>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > > >>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > > >>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > > >>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > > >>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > > >>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > > >>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > > >>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hello, > > >>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > > >>>> going > > >>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > > >>>>>>> wrong > > >>>>>> with > > >>>>>>> backing both cars. > > >>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > > >>>>>>> control > > >>>> or > > >>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > > >>>>>>> reader to > > >>>>>> read > > >>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > > >>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream > > >>>>>>> and > > >>>> will > > >>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > > >>>>>>> mainstreem > > >>>> and > > >>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > > >>>> screen. > > >>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > > >>>>>>> common tasks. > > >>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > > >>>> little > > >>>>>>> or > > >>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > > >>>> country > > >>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > > >>>>>>> completely entered into the database. > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist > > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > > >>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > > >>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > > >>>>>>> superior. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hello, > > >>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > > >>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be > > >>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will > > >>>>>>> happen very soon. > > >>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > > >>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google > > >>>>>>> would take the challenge. > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>>> From: Justin Young > > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > > >>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting > > >>>>>>> project. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > > >>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday > > >>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in > > >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > > >>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > > >>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That > > >>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > > >>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually > > >>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > > >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > > >>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and > > >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > > >>>>>>> the company. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > > >>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has > > >>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the > > >>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > > >>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > > >>>>>>> Through > > >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > > >>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more > > >>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state > > >>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's > > >>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > > >>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>>> for > > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > > >>>>>>> l.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>>> for > > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>>> for nabs-l: > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>>> for > > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>>> for > > >>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>>> for > > >>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > > >>>> .net > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>> for > > >>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > >>>> 0gmail > > >>>>>> .com > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>>> for > > >>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > > >>>> mail.com > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >>>>> for > > >>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > > >>>> mail.com > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>>> nabs-l: > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > > >>>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > >>> .com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From dandrews at visi.com Sat Apr 13 19:39:18 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 14:39:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] android phones and upgrades. In-Reply-To: <5169A0D4.4010802@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0D4.4010802@gmail.com> Message-ID: Whether or not you can update Android depends on the provider of the phone and carrier. So, with the low cost carrier, the answer is probably no. You could look at T-Mobile, they are starting to offer the iPhone with no contract, you can pay by month, and they have unlimited plans. Dave At 01:15 PM 4/13/2013, you wrote: >Thank you very much but I can't afford any of >those carriers at all. I use straight talk >because they avaccessible phones and I only have >to pay $45 for unlimited everything. I also >can't afford an iPhone at this point,, and, >sheepishly, it won’t fit in some of my pants >pockets. My friend has an iPhone 4S that I >played with for a day. Siri is my new BFF! LOL. >I can only deal with the lowend companies at the >moment with boost mobile and tings like that >because, I want to be able to talk and text, >especially because of my speech impediment, text >for a low price. So far straight talk has all >that, and not to mention good cell phone >service. I don't have to be bound by a contract, >etc. so it works for me. I might be getting an I >pad soon, to which I will be extremely happy >about! If there's some way that I can upgrade >without switching to a carrier that won’t cost >me a lot of money to talk, text, and look at >email I’d appreciate knowing about it. by the >way I love the apple Bluetooth keybords but I >wish they had rechargeable ones. On 4/13/2013 >1:02 PM, christopher nusbaum wrote: > I believe >android is up to version 4.2, which you can get >from certain > carriers such as Verizon and >AT&T. If you are interested in getting an > >iPhone, you can still use a Bluetooth keyboard >instead of the > touchscreen. > > Chris >Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 13, >2013, at 1:56 PM, Robert William Kingett > wrote: > >> Thank you! I >have a small question to ask. Does anyone know >if you can upgrade the android software? I want >to get an android phone from straight talk but >they all run android 2.6. can I upgrade that? >the iPhone just won’t work for my c needs. >Even with the assisted touch I just need a >physical keyboard to do typing with when I text >people, etc. I have an old nokia phone from >straight talk that runs TALKS, and I pay $34 a >month for Verizon service, because it's covered >by those towers as well but I want to come into >the 21^st centaury, loll. Can you upgrade the >android OS even after you buy it from a vender? >> >> >> From dandrews at visi.com Sat Apr 13 20:00:50 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:00:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did do your survey, but from what you say at end, it seems like you primarily aiming at nondisabled persons, and you are primarily going to get blind and visually impaired persons here. You don't ask about disability in survey. Dave At 01:01 PM 4/13/2013, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your >participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. >I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and >that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really >appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget >that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing >for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. >Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my >collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your >help. Thanks so much in advance! > >My name is Katie Wang; I'm a Psychology graduate student at Yale >University. I'm conducting an on-line study on how blind and >visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer >assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a >10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is >18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your >participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 >Amazon.com gift certificate. > >If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take >you directly to the survey. >https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 >If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to >contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for >your time and assistance! From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 13 20:30:10 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:30:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> Message-ID: I was reply to this "So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough for one of these things?" So yes that to me implies the "your blind ass" can't afford it not that everyone can't afford it. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Suzanne, > > I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income disparity.At > 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good income >> and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we as >> blind individuals cannot make a good living. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < >> mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > AMEN. >> > It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under elaborated >> > rational. >> > >> > Mauricio >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> > >> > > This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial >> > living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement >> > offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list >> composed >> > of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful >> careers. >> > > >> > > Sent from my iPhone >> > > >> > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Good morning, Suzanne, >> > >> >> > >> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >> dough >> > for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how >> long >> > it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams >> > wrote: >> > >>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure >> bus >> > v. >> > >>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >> > >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >> On Behalf Of Suzanne >> > Germano >> > >>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>> >> > >>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 >> and >> > have >> > >>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or >> > more >> > >>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has >> > been >> > >>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 >> minutes I >> > >>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating >> to >> > only >> > >>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the >> > freedom to >> > >>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that >> > matches >> > >>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I >> get >> > >>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to >> work. >> > Give >> > >>> me a Google car!! >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >> > >>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>>> Kirt, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, >> we >> > >>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> > >>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >> prototypes. >> > >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over >> by >> > >>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >> someone >> > >>>> reposted here mentioned. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> > >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >> such as >> > >>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >> town in >> > >>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> > >>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> > >>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. >> For >> > >>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >> might >> > >>>> give me in this area. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Just my thoughts, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Chris Nusbaum >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> > >>>> >> > >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >> > > >> > >>>> wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> Patrick, >> > >>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> > >>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> > >>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> > >>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be >> able >> > >>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> > >>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see >> the >> > >>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >> > >>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >> > >>>>> before it was viable to the general public. >> > >>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >> have >> > >>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >> landing. >> > >>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> > >>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. >> > >>>>> Carley, >> > >>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> > >>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> > >>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> > >>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> > >>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> > >>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> > >>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> > >>>>> trains any time soon. >> > >>>>> Best, >> > >>>>> Kirt >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> > >>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >> On Behalf Of Carly >> > >>>>>> Mihalakis >> > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> > >>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Hi, List, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >> > >>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >> > >>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having >> > >>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >> > >>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >> > >>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take >> you >> > >>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >> > >>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta >> be >> > >>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> > >>>>>> So no, on the car! >> > >>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> > >>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >> major >> > >>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people >> in >> > >>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust >> us >> > >>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> > >>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >> will >> > >>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> > >>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Hello, >> > >>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >> already >> > >>>> going >> > >>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >> nothing >> > >>>>>>> wrong >> > >>>>>> with >> > >>>>>>> backing both cars. >> > >>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> > >>>>>>> control >> > >>>> or >> > >>>>>>> a >> > >>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >> > >>>>>>> reader to >> > >>>>>> read >> > >>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >> very >> > >>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream >> > >>>>>>> and >> > >>>> will >> > >>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> > >>>>>>> mainstreem >> > >>>> and >> > >>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >> > >>>> screen. >> > >>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> > >>>>>>> common tasks. >> > >>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >> very >> > >>>> little >> > >>>>>>> or >> > >>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway >> or >> > >>>> country >> > >>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> > >>>>>>> completely entered into the database. >> > >>>>>>> Thanks, >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent >> a >> > >>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> > >>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> > >>>>>>> superior. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Hello, >> > >>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> > >>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >> > >>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >> > >>>>>>> happen very soon. >> > >>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> > >>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google >> > >>>>>>> would take the challenge. >> > >>>>>>> Thanks, >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>>> From: Justin Young >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> > >>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> interesting >> > >>>>>>> project. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> > >>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on >> Monday >> > >>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> in >> > >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> > >>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> > >>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >> > >>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> > >>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >> > >>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> > >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> > >>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> and >> > >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> > >>>>>>> the company. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> > >>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >> > >>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >> > >>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> > >>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> > >>>>>>> Through >> > >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> > >>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >> > >>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state >> > >>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that >> state's >> > >>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> > >>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> > >>>>>>> for >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> jty727%40gmai >> > >>>>>>> l.com >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> > >>>>>>> for >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> brandonkeithb >> > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> > >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> sweetpeareade >> > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> > >>>>>>> for >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> brandonkeithb >> > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> > >>>>>>> for >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> sweetpeareade >> > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> > >>>>>>> for >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast >> > >>>> .net >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>>>>> for >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> justin.williams2%4 >> > >>>> 0gmail >> > >>>>>> .com >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>>>>> for >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> kirt.crazydude%40g >> > >>>> mail.com >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >>>>> for >> > >>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> > >>>> mail.com >> > >>>> >> > >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > >>>> nabs-l: >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> sgermano%40asu.edu >> > >>>> >> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > >>> nabs-l: >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> justin.williams2%40gmail >> > >>> .com >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > nabs-l: >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > > >> > > ______________________________**_________________ >> > > nabs-l mailing list >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> sgermano%40asu.edu >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Apr 13 21:07:23 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 21:07:23 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class In-Reply-To: References: <5168e383.8277310a.09a8.ffffaf30@mx.google.com>, , Message-ID: No. You don't need more computer knowledge to use the Pac Mate. It's like the Braille Note, but it doesn't have all of those compartments, like the older Braille Notes do. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hey!! Joshua!. I have a BrailleNote Apex. It's a Braille Keyboard. Yes!, only the dot 4 of the BrailleNote broke, but if one dot doesn't work I can't use the BrailleNote at all, and I already save inportant things in there. I think I save my entire life in there. What I mean is that I save books that I download from Bard, class notes, papers, assignments, and important emails and addresses. Yeah, I absolutely heard of the Pack Mate before. Before Division of Blind Services bought me the BrailleNote, I went and check the other machines, and one was the Pack Mate. Isn't that true that the Pack Mate involves more computer knowledge than the BrailleNote? I was just wondering because does the reason I didn't choose it. Because on that time I didn't know how to use a computer, I just learn how to use the computer one year ago. Thanks for listening to me!. God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 5:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi Helga! First of all, welcome to the list! Hmmm! Your Braille Note broke? I'm a proud Pac Mate user! Please check into getting one, because Pac Mates are better quality than Braille Notes. Freedom Scientific makes those. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi Kaiti, What I meant to say is that is not that I don't like reading the book on audio format or electronic Braille format. What I meant was that the reason that I prefer reading books as a Braille books format is becauseI use to read them that way, and I also use to read them in audeo when I was in high school. Just to let you know, reading Braille is something that I learned before ever learning how to use a computer or a note taker, I actually was not born blind, I just became blind five years ago when I was 16 years old, and Braille is something that I really enjoy reading from that time. I actually have a BrailleNote device that I use to read my class notes, but I just find out that it got broken today when I called tecknical support of the company that selds it because it wasn't working yesterday very well. And I called my DBS counceler today and I told her about this situation and she told me that she would send the BrailleNote to be repaired, but she also told me that this probably would take weeks or months for the machine to come back to me. So that means that I would not have my BrailleNote device in order to read my school notes. Actually, my DBS counceller told me that she would send my device to be repaired the week after next week because she is going to be out of her office next week. I'm now actually taikeing my Literature class, and I use my book as a PDF for mat that the Dissability department provides, but I don't really like it because it's bnot Braille, and I told my Adviser from college about this, and she told me that she is not going to be printing the stories from my book in Braille for me from the Braille printer that the school owns because I have a BrailleNote she says. I really think reading books from a note taker is not enough because it takes more time to find the pages, rather I think that is better to have it as a Braille book. That's my opinion, What do you think about it? Thanks so much for listening to me. I'll really appreciat it! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class Hi, Yes, definitely take Sophie up on her suggestion. Talk to your teacher and see if another edition of the book will suffice. As for electronic format, did you mean you didn't want just audio or any form of electronic file including electronic braille you could read from a notetaker or braille display? I ask because I searched it on Bookshare and found the fifth edition with readings available in brf format. There is also another version of the textbook on the site, although I'm assuming it's the first edition as it doesn't have an edition number (it was copyrighted 2007 though). Try giving the fifth edition file on Bookshare a shot if you can. If you really don't want to read that on electronic braille you could always download it and emboss it yourself too, although I would think that would be time consuming and a little frustrating to deal with. On 4/13/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Helga, this will probably not work, but you can ask my professor. > I'm taking AP U.S. History next year, and the textbook we're > using is American History: A Survey, 13th edition. I wasn't able > to locate the 13th edition, however, I did find several other > editions on Bookshare. When my teacher heard this, she said that > the other editions of the book were so similar to the one that > the class was using that it won't make any difference. If your > teacher approves of the 4th or 5th edition, you can probably find > that somewhere. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helga" To: Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:23:52 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Summer English Composition 2, class > > Hi my name is Helga, and I’m going to be taking my English > composition 2 class in the summer term, which starts on Monday, > May 13. And I actually email my professor in advance and ask her > if she knows the name of the book that we are going to be using > in class, she told me that the name of the book is called > Everything’s An Argument, 6th Edition. But she also told me > unfortunately this is a new edition. And I know when a book is a > new edition there is not really and audio version or a Braille > version of it. I will really like to have this book in Braille > format'; instead, than Electronic format because this is my > prefer way of reading when it comes for English and Literature > classes, but I don’t know where I can convert this book in > Braille before my summer class starts. I definitely know that > this costs a lot of money. Do you guys know where could I send my > book in order to be transcribe in Braille for me for free? I was > just wondering because I know that some companies do it, but it > costs a lot of money to do so. I’ll really appreciate it if you > guys could tell me some suggestions about this situation. Thanks > so much! > > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 23:35:58 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 19:35:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01b701ce37d6$7c789790$7569c6b0$@gmail.com> I completed your survey. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! Hi all, I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your help. Thanks so much in advance! My name is Katie Wang; I'm a Psychology graduate student at Yale University. I'm conducting an on-line study on how blind and visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate. If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take you directly to the survey. https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for your time and assistance! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 23:44:39 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 19:44:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01bc01ce37d7$b3543660$19fca320$@gmail.com> In new York, or certain of our cities with good public transit, that may work just fine. In Columbia south Carolina, the bus system is almost ethereal. It ends in most places at 7 p.m, and it's rout is not but so robust. There are places that I don't have access to, and well, I won't mention the weekends. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 11:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I still don't understand why there is any dilemma here at all. It's neither cheaper nor more efficient to take the bus than to own a car. It is more eco-friendly, but so too is car pooling. Over time, if you use public transit every day, including the occasional cab or sighted friend's car, buying a car will pay for itself, even of you factor in the cost of maintenance and insurance. I'd say 3 to 4 years. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2013, at 12:55 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > 'Evening, blackbyrdfly, > > All I was trying to point out is, if we as blind students are to shed any personal investment in the sometimes alarming cunumdrum of blind folks driving, or continue to simply take the bus, perhaps said students can more fully appreciate some corner of this dilemma, previously unrealized. to offend was definitely not my intention. > Carly > At 02:41 PM 4/12/2013, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list composed of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful careers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> > Good morning, Suzanne, >> > >> > So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams wrote: >> >> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure bus v. >> >> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano >> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 and have >> >> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or more >> >> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has been >> >> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes I >> >> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating to only >> >> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the freedom to >> >> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that matches >> >> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get >> >> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. Give >> >> me a Google car!! >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >> >> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Kirt, >> >> > >> >> > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> >> > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> >> > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> >> > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> >> > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> >> > reposted here mentioned. >> >> > >> >> > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> >> > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> >> > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> >> > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> >> > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> >> > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> >> > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> >> > give me in this area. >> >> > >> >> > Just my thoughts, >> >> > >> >> > Chris Nusbaum >> >> > >> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> > >> >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Patrick, >> >> > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> >> > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> >> > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> >> > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> >> > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> >> > > where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> >> > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >> >> > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >> >> > > before it was viable to the general public. >> >> > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> >> > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> >> > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> >> > > attention in the event something goes wrong. >> >> > > Carley, >> >> > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> >> > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> >> > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> >> > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> >> > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> >> > > safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> >> > > away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> >> > > trains any time soon. >> >> > > Best, >> >> > > Kirt >> >> > > >> >> > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> >> > >> Mihalakis >> >> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> >> > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Hi, List, >> >> > >> >> >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >> >> > >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >> >> > >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having >> >> > >> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >> >> > >> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >> >> > >> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you >> >> > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >> >> > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> >> > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> > >> So no, on the car! >> >> > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> >> > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> >> > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> >> > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >> > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> >> > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> >> > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >> > >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Hello, >> >> > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> >> > going >> >> > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> >> > >>> wrong >> >> > >> with >> >> > >>> backing both cars. >> >> > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> >> > >>> control >> >> > or >> >> > >>> a >> >> > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >> >> > >>> reader to >> >> > >> read >> >> > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> >> > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream >> >> > >>> and >> >> > will >> >> > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> >> > >>> mainstreem >> >> > and >> >> > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no >> >> > screen. >> >> > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> >> > >>> common tasks. >> >> > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> >> > little >> >> > >>> or >> >> > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> >> > country >> >> > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> >> > >>> completely entered into the database. >> >> > >>> Thanks, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> >> > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> >> > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >> > >>> superior. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >>> > >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Hello, >> >> > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >> > >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >> >> > >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >> >> > >>> happen very soon. >> >> > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >> > >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google >> >> > >>> would take the challenge. >> >> > >>> Thanks, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>> From: Justin Young >> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >> > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> >> > >>> project. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >> > >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday >> >> > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> >> > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >> > >>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> >> > >>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That >> >> > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >> > >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >> >> > >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >> > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >> > >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> >> > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> >> > >>> the company. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >> > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >> >> > >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >> >> > >>> members of the public, the DMV said. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >> > >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >> > >>> Through >> >> > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >> > >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >> >> > >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state >> >> > >>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's >> >> > >>> autonomous car legislation. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >> > >>> Nevada, the DMV said. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> >> > >>> l.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >>> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >> >> > .net >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> > 0gmail >> >> > >> .com >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > >> for >> >> > >> nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kingettr at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 00:10:14 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:10:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> this video was mae by our lovely sam! she has a great idea about advocating for audio description! can you please pass her video? http://youtu.be/8jPn5WurP28 From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 00:24:01 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:24:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <01bc01ce37d7$b3543660$19fca320$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <01bc01ce37d7$b3543660$19fca320$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, I completely agree. In places like New York or Philadelphia, it might not make sense to have an autonomous car. However, it's always better to have the choice between the bus or the car. I'm really excited about this, especially since this car is actually going to come out soon. That statement isn't a knock against the NFB, but you have to admit, their autonomous car has been, frankly, disappointing. Why isn't it in production? Why do we only see it on rare occasions? Patrick On 4/12/13, justin williams wrote: > In new York, or certain of our cities with good public transit, that may > work just fine. In Columbia south Carolina, the bus system is almost > ethereal. It ends in most places at 7 p.m, and it's rout is not but so > robust. There are places that I don't have access to, and well, I won't > mention the weekends. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > blackbyrdfly at gmail.com > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 11:24 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I still don't understand why there is any dilemma here at all. It's neither > cheaper nor more efficient to take the bus than to own a car. It is more > eco-friendly, but so too is car pooling. Over time, if you use public > transit every day, including the occasional cab or sighted friend's car, > buying a car will pay for itself, even of you factor in the cost of > maintenance and insurance. I'd say 3 to 4 years. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 13, 2013, at 12:55 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> 'Evening, blackbyrdfly, >> >> All I was trying to point out is, if we as blind students are to shed any > personal investment in the sometimes alarming cunumdrum of blind folks > driving, or continue to simply take the bus, perhaps said students can > more > fully appreciate some corner of this dilemma, previously unrealized. to > offend was definitely not my intention. >> Carly >> At 02:41 PM 4/12/2013, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial > living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement > offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list composed > of > blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful careers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: >>> >>> > Good morning, Suzanne, >>> > >>> > So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >>> > dough > for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how long > it > often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams > wrote: >>> >> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure >>> >> bus > v. >>> >> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano >>> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> >>> >> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 >>> >> and > have >>> >> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or > more >>> >> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has > been >>> >> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 minutes >>> >> I >>> >> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating >>> >> to > only >>> >> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the > freedom to >>> >> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that > matches >>> >> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I get >>> >> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. > Give >>> >> me a Google car!! >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >>> >> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > Kirt, >>> >> > >>> >> > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, >>> >> > we >>> >> > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>> >> > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than > prototypes. >>> >> > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over >>> >> > by >>> >> > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which > someone >>> >> > reposted here mentioned. >>> >> > >>> >> > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>> >> > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such > as >>> >> > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town > in >>> >> > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>> >> > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >>> >> > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. > For >>> >> > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >>> >> > might >>> >> > give me in this area. >>> >> > >>> >> > Just my thoughts, >>> >> > >>> >> > Chris Nusbaum >>> >> > >>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >>> >> > >>> >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > > Patrick, >>> >> > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>> >> > > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >>> >> > > that >>> >> > > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>> >> > > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be > able >>> >> > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >>> >> > > where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see > the >>> >> > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>> >> > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >>> >> > > before it was viable to the general public. >>> >> > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't > have >>> >> > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and > landing. >>> >> > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>> >> > > attention in the event something goes wrong. >>> >> > > Carley, >>> >> > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>> >> > > about >>> >> > > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >>> >> > > public >>> >> > > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes >>> >> > > to >>> >> > > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >>> >> > > totally >>> >> > > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >>> >> > > safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >>> >> > > enough >>> >> > > away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >>> >> > > trains any time soon. >>> >> > > Best, >>> >> > > Kirt >>> >> > > >>> >> > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >> > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Carly >>> >> > >> Mihalakis >>> >> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> >> > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>> >> > >> National >>> >> > >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Hi, List, >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk >>> >> > >> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their >>> >> > >> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >>> >> > >> having >>> >> > >> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >>> >> > >> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about >>> >> > >> the >>> >> > >> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take > you >>> >> > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>> >> > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta > be >>> >> > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> >> > >> So no, on the car! >>> >> > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> >> > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a > major >>> >> > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people > in >>> >> > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust > us >>> >> > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> >> > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he > will >>> >> > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>> >> > >>> convincing >>> >> > >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> > >> >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Hello, >>> >> > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is > already >>> >> > going >>> >> > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is > nothing >>> >> > >>> wrong >>> >> > >> with >>> >> > >>> backing both cars. >>> >> > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> >> > >>> control >>> >> > or >>> >> > >>> a >>> >> > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>> >> > >>> reader to >>> >> > >> read >>> >> > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is > very >>> >> > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream >>> >> > >>> and >>> >> > will >>> >> > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>> >> > >>> mainstreem >>> >> > and >>> >> > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and >>> >> > >>> no >>> >> > screen. >>> >> > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >>> >> > >>> most >>> >> > >>> common tasks. >>> >> > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be > very >>> >> > little >>> >> > >>> or >>> >> > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway > or >>> >> > country >>> >> > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could >>> >> > >>> be >>> >> > >>> completely entered into the database. >>> >> > >>> Thanks, >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >> > >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent > a >>> >> > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>> >> > >>> convince >>> >> > >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>> >> > >>> superior. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Hello, >>> >> > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >>> >> > >>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be >>> >> > >>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will >>> >> > >>> happen very soon. >>> >> > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >>> >> > >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >>> >> > >>> Google >>> >> > >>> would take the challenge. >>> >> > >>> Thanks, >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >> > >>> From: Justin Young >>> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> >> > >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > interesting >>> >> > >>> project. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >>> >> > >>> roads >>> >> > >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on > Monday >>> >> > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > in >>> >> > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >>> >> > >>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. >>> >> > >>> That >>> >> > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> >> > >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >>> >> > >>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> >> > >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>> >> > >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > and >>> >> > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according >>> >> > >>> to >>> >> > >>> the company. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> >> > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >>> >> > >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >>> >> > >>> members of the public, the DMV said. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >>> >> > >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> >> > >>> Through >>> >> > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> >> > >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >>> >> > >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California >>> >> > >>> state >>> >> > >>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that > state's >>> >> > >>> autonomous car legislation. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses >>> >> > >>> in >>> >> > >>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>> >> > >>> l.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>> >> > >>> for nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >>> >> > .net >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> > >> info >>> >> > >> for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >> >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> >> > 0gmail >>> >> > >> .com >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> > >> info >>> >> > >> for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >> >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > > >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> > > for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > > >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> >> .com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From samnelson1 at verizon.net Sun Apr 14 00:31:25 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:31:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> Hi Everyone, I clicked on this video and took a listen and was like, hey I know that girl! LOL! Thanks so much Robert! It would mean a lot if others could join me in helping get shows audio described. Especially children's shows. Or well known shows like Degrasi, intervention, and In treatment. I don't know if anyone's heard of the show Starting Over, but it was a reality show about women changing their lives with life coaching and therapy, and I'd really really like to get that one up too! But like I said everyone can just pick their favorites, and the more that's up there the better! Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 7:10 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! this video was mae by our lovely sam! she has a great idea about advocating for audio description! can you please pass her video? http://youtu.be/8jPn5WurP28 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 00:54:34 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:54:34 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Sam: the NFB has been advocating for this for years! There's a bill in Congress, about this! We also need movies audio-described! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 7:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Hi Everyone, I clicked on this video and took a listen and was like, hey I know that girl! LOL! Thanks so much Robert! It would mean a lot if others could join me in helping get shows audio described. Especially children's shows. Or well known shows like Degrasi, intervention, and In treatment. I don't know if anyone's heard of the show Starting Over, but it was a reality show about women changing their lives with life coaching and therapy, and I'd really really like to get that one up too! But like I said everyone can just pick their favorites, and the more that's up there the better! Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 7:10 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! this video was mae by our lovely sam! she has a great idea about advocating for audio description! can you please pass her video? http://youtu.be/8jPn5WurP28 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From kingettr at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 01:08:09 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:08:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> correction, the ACB, not NFB. The NFB have taken a position contrary to that of other advocacy groups on the need for audio description for television programming. Many blind people enjoy audio description during passages without dialogue in films and television programs. However, in many of these the plot can be followed from the dialogue and sound effects. Therefore the NFB has urged that audio description for entertainment programming be voluntary, not mandatory. However, the NFB believes that the Federal Communications Commission should require printed information that scrolls across television screens, such as emergency news and weather information and print information in advertising, to be transmitted audibly also in digitized speech. the ACB has done all the work, not NFB. From kingettr at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 01:09:52 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:09:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <516A01E0.5000509@gmail.com> In early 2009, The American Council of the Blind (ACB) established the Audio Description Project (ADP) to boost levels of description activity and disseminate information on that work throughout the United States and worldwide. From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 01:13:01 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:13:01 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bro! I was at last year's convention, and I was there when the resolution passed! Why don't you guys in the ACB get your act together, and join us in the fight for fair wages, and we'll listen to you, but until then, quit shoving the ACB junk down our throats! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:08 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! correction, the ACB, not NFB. The NFB have taken a position contrary to that of other advocacy groups on the need for audio description for television programming. Many blind people enjoy audio description during passages without dialogue in films and television programs. However, in many of these the plot can be followed from the dialogue and sound effects. Therefore the NFB has urged that audio description for entertainment programming be voluntary, not mandatory. However, the NFB believes that the Federal Communications Commission should require printed information that scrolls across television screens, such as emergency news and weather information and print information in advertising, to be transmitted audibly also in digitized speech. the ACB has done all the work, not NFB. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 01:13:56 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:13:56 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <516A01E0.5000509@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A01E0.5000509@gmail.com> Message-ID: And last year, the NFB joined in! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In early 2009, The American Council of the Blind (ACB) established the Audio Description Project (ADP) to boost levels of description activity and disseminate information on that work throughout the United States and worldwide. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 01:15:52 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:15:52 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com>, Message-ID: BTW: this is coming from a former ACB member! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:13 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Bro! I was at last year's convention, and I was there when the resolution passed! Why don't you guys in the ACB get your act together, and join us in the fight for fair wages, and we'll listen to you, but until then, quit shoving the ACB junk down our throats! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:08 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! correction, the ACB, not NFB. The NFB have taken a position contrary to that of other advocacy groups on the need for audio description for television programming. Many blind people enjoy audio description during passages without dialogue in films and television programs. However, in many of these the plot can be followed from the dialogue and sound effects. Therefore the NFB has urged that audio description for entertainment programming be voluntary, not mandatory. However, the NFB believes that the Federal Communications Commission should require printed information that scrolls across television screens, such as emergency news and weather information and print information in advertising, to be transmitted audibly also in digitized speech. the ACB has done all the work, not NFB. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From kingettr at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 01:26:43 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:26:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support both. They both have amazing things going on From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 01:33:19 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:33:19 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com>, , <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well: One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take care of me like I couldn't care for myself! At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further research, I found that it was impossible. If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we are doing divided. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support both. They both have amazing things going on _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 01:41:55 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:41:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> Message-ID: Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree audio description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen should take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this negates the whole purpose of having description at all. Arielle On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Well: > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to stop > hosting their national conventions at the same time! > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I attended, they > were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, and > while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide that they > hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take care of me like I > couldn't care for myself! > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further > research, I found that it was impossible. > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in us, > like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we are doing > divided. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett > [kingettr at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong to > either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice is > take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support > both. They both have amazing things going on > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 01:45:43 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:45:43 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> , Message-ID: If they'd put something to where I can put a Braille display on the TV, so that the subtitles or descriptions written on the screen, can pop up in Braille, I'd rather have that than audio. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Arielle Silverman [arielle71 at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree audio description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen should take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this negates the whole purpose of having description at all. Arielle On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Well: > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to stop > hosting their national conventions at the same time! > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I attended, they > were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, and > while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide that they > hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take care of me like I > couldn't care for myself! > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further > research, I found that it was impossible. > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in us, > like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we are doing > divided. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett > [kingettr at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong to > either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice is > take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support > both. They both have amazing things going on > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 02:27:50 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 22:27:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! In-Reply-To: <01b701ce37d6$7c789790$7569c6b0$@gmail.com> References: <01b701ce37d6$7c789790$7569c6b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave and all, Thanks to everyone who has completed my survey. To answer Dave's question, the purpose of this survey is to compare how blind versus sighted people perceive situations related to offering and asking for assistance. The survey was previously administered to a nondisabled sample, which explains some of the more general wording. You are right that the question about disability status is somehow left out - Thanks so much for bringing that to my attention and I will make that correction ASAP. Thanks again for all of your assistance! Katie On 4/12/13, justin williams wrote: > I completed your survey. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! > > Hi all, > > I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your > participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. > I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and > that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really > appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget > that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing > for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. > Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my > collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your > help. Thanks so much in advance! > > My name is Katie Wang; I'm a Psychology graduate student at Yale > University. I'm conducting an on-line study on how blind and > visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer > assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a > 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is > 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your > participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 > Amazon.com gift certificate. > > If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take > you directly to the survey. > https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 > If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to > contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for > your time and assistance! > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 04:08:09 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:08:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! In-Reply-To: References: <01b701ce37d6$7c789790$7569c6b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701ce38c5$ad109160$0731b420$@gmail.com> Katie, I would love to take this survey, as I have some thoughts on this subject. However, your note says the survey is restricted to blind people over 18 years of age... bummer! Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! Hi Dave and all, Thanks to everyone who has completed my survey. To answer Dave's question, the purpose of this survey is to compare how blind versus sighted people perceive situations related to offering and asking for assistance. The survey was previously administered to a nondisabled sample, which explains some of the more general wording. You are right that the question about disability status is somehow left out - Thanks so much for bringing that to my attention and I will make that correction ASAP. Thanks again for all of your assistance! Katie On 4/12/13, justin williams wrote: > I completed your survey. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie > Wang > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! > > Hi all, > > I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your > participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. > I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and > that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really > appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget > that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing > for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. > Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my > collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your > help. Thanks so much in advance! > > My name is Katie Wang; I'm a Psychology graduate student at Yale > University. I'm conducting an on-line study on how blind and > visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer > assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a > 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is > 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your > participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 > Amazon.com gift certificate. > > If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take > you directly to the survey. > https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 > If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to > contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for > your time and assistance! > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmai > l.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 04:15:01 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:15:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> Arielle, I agree with you. As with the issue over accessible currency, I think the NFB's point was that these were nice luxuries, not necessities. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree audio description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen should take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this negates the whole purpose of having description at all. Arielle On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Well: > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to > stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I > attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, > and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide > that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take > care of me like I couldn't care for myself! > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further > research, I found that it was impossible. > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in > us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we > are doing divided. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William > Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong > to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice > is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support > both. They both have amazing things going on > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > aedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 04:16:46 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:16:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com>, , <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002e01ce38c6$e1047990$a30d6cb0$@gmail.com> The tenBroek machine? Don't they know he passed away way back in 1968? Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Well: One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take care of me like I couldn't care for myself! At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further research, I found that it was impossible. If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we are doing divided. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support both. They both have amazing things going on _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 04:59:56 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 00:59:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <01bc01ce37d7$b3543660$19fca320$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001ce3803$be87c7f0$3b9757d0$@gmail.com> If I'm driving, I'm not worried about who's car it is. Just as long as itt works. I can't wait to brag about some of my nfb brothers and sisters across the country, driving. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, I completely agree. In places like New York or Philadelphia, it might not make sense to have an autonomous car. However, it's always better to have the choice between the bus or the car. I'm really excited about this, especially since this car is actually going to come out soon. That statement isn't a knock against the NFB, but you have to admit, their autonomous car has been, frankly, disappointing. Why isn't it in production? Why do we only see it on rare occasions? Patrick On 4/12/13, justin williams wrote: > In new York, or certain of our cities with good public transit, that may > work just fine. In Columbia south Carolina, the bus system is almost > ethereal. It ends in most places at 7 p.m, and it's rout is not but so > robust. There are places that I don't have access to, and well, I won't > mention the weekends. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > blackbyrdfly at gmail.com > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 11:24 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I still don't understand why there is any dilemma here at all. It's > neither cheaper nor more efficient to take the bus than to own a car. > It is more eco-friendly, but so too is car pooling. Over time, if you > use public transit every day, including the occasional cab or sighted > friend's car, buying a car will pay for itself, even of you factor in > the cost of maintenance and insurance. I'd say 3 to 4 years. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 13, 2013, at 12:55 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> 'Evening, blackbyrdfly, >> >> All I was trying to point out is, if we as blind students are to shed >> any > personal investment in the sometimes alarming cunumdrum of blind folks > driving, or continue to simply take the bus, perhaps said students > can more fully appreciate some corner of this dilemma, previously > unrealized. to offend was definitely not my intention. >> Carly >> At 02:41 PM 4/12/2013, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a >>> substantial > living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement > offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list > composed of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing > gainful careers. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: >>> >>> > Good morning, Suzanne, >>> > >>> > So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >>> > dough > for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how > long it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin > williams > wrote: >>> >> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to >>> >> measure bus > v. >>> >> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> >> Suzanne > Germano >>> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >>> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> >>> >> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am >>> >> 49 and > have >>> >> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 >>> >> or > more >>> >> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this >>> >> has > been >>> >> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 >>> >> minutes I almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is >>> >> frustrating to > only >>> >> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the > freedom to >>> >> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position >>> >> that > matches >>> >> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I >>> >> get anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to work. > Give >>> >> me a Google car!! >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >>> >> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > Kirt, >>> >> > >>> >> > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google >>> >> > car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages >>> >> > and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no >>> >> > more than > prototypes. >>> >> > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken >>> >> > over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the >>> >> > story which > someone >>> >> > reposted here mentioned. >>> >> > >>> >> > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people >>> >> > don't live in areas where public transportation is easily >>> >> > available, such > as >>> >> > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >>> >> > town > in >>> >> > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>> >> > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >>> >> > these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. > For >>> >> > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >>> >> > might give me in this area. >>> >> > >>> >> > Just my thoughts, >>> >> > >>> >> > Chris Nusbaum >>> >> > >>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >>> >> > >>> >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > > Patrick, >>> >> > > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope >>> >> > > you're right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only >>> >> > > point was that this thing isn't right around the corner; >>> >> > > while it's realisticly viable now, it's still probably a long >>> >> > > ways off before we'll be > able >>> >> > > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable >>> >> > > to where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people >>> >> > > could see > the >>> >> > > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>> >> > > probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to >>> >> > > go before it was viable to the general public. >>> >> > > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots >>> >> > > don't > have >>> >> > > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and > landing. >>> >> > > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>> >> > > attention in the event something goes wrong. >>> >> > > Carley, >>> >> > > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>> >> > > about driving. In most places it is probably more efficient >>> >> > > than public transport. Of course there are exceptions; New >>> >> > > York city comes to mind, for instance. Still, living where I >>> >> > > do now, I would totally jump on the chance to drive if I >>> >> > > could and it were realistic and safe, at least most of the >>> >> > > time. That being said, it's far enough away that I'm >>> >> > > definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any >>> >> > > time soon. >>> >> > > Best, >>> >> > > Kirt >>> >> > > >>> >> > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >> > >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Carly >>> >> > >> Mihalakis >>> >> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> >> > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>> >> > >> National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Hi, List, >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >>> >> > >> folk seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility >>> >> > >> towrd their fellow man, as they drive. I have always been >>> >> > >> grateful not having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am >>> >> > >> not confident about chances of ever affording such a car. >>> >> > >> And, I don't care about the principles personal cars >>> >> > >> supposedly afford. Where can they take > you >>> >> > >> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>> >> > >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >>> >> > >> oughta > be >>> >> > >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> >> > >> So no, on the car! >>> >> > >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> >> > >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be >>> >> > >>> a > major >>> >> > >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >>> >> > >>> people > in >>> >> > >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >>> >> > >>> trust > us >>> >> > >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>> >> > >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says >>> >> > >>> he > will >>> >> > >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>> >> > >>> convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the >>> >> > >>> road. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> > >> >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Hello, >>> >> > >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is > already >>> >> > going >>> >> > >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is > nothing >>> >> > >>> wrong >>> >> > >> with >>> >> > >>> backing both cars. >>> >> > >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their >>> >> > >>> own control >>> >> > or >>> >> > >>> a >>> >> > >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >>> >> > >>> screen reader to >>> >> > >> read >>> >> > >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader >>> >> > >>> is > very >>> >> > >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >>> >> > >>> mainstream and >>> >> > will >>> >> > >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>> >> > >>> mainstreem >>> >> > and >>> >> > >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws >>> >> > >>> and no >>> >> > screen. >>> >> > >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >>> >> > >>> most common tasks. >>> >> > >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would >>> >> > >>> be > very >>> >> > little >>> >> > >>> or >>> >> > >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>> >> > >>> driveway > or >>> >> > country >>> >> > >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road >>> >> > >>> could be completely entered into the database. >>> >> > >>> Thanks, >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >> > >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >>> >> > >>> invent > a >>> >> > >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>> >> > >>> convince them to back the google car unless we can prove >>> >> > >>> theirs is superior. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Hello, >>> >> > >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be >>> >> > >>> taken into account I'm sure and licensing probably still >>> >> > >>> needs to be worked out, but if the government officials are >>> >> > >>> pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> >> > >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps >>> >> > >>> they could even ask that a car come to the convention, I >>> >> > >>> think Google would take the challenge. >>> >> > >>> Thanks, >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >> > >>> From: Justin Young >>> >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market >>> >> > >>> for individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > interesting >>> >> > >>> project. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >>> >> > >>> roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles >>> >> > >>> approved on > Monday >>> >> > >>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on >>> >> > >>> highways, > in >>> >> > >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas >>> >> > >>> Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven >>> >> > >>> cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the >>> >> > >>> United States. >>> >> > >>> That >>> >> > >>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar >>> >> > >>> sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected >>> >> > >>> from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with >>> >> > >>> its experimental driver-less technology, developed by >>> >> > >>> Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate >>> >> > >>> Bridge > and >>> >> > >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >>> >> > >>> according to the company. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>> >> > >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also >>> >> > >>> has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned >>> >> > >>> by the members of the public, the DMV said. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered >>> >> > >>> in other states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> >> > >>> Through >>> >> > >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an >>> >> > >>> autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving >>> >> > >>> environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more >>> >> > >>> safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in >>> >> > >>> March when he introduced that > state's >>> >> > >>> autonomous car legislation. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car >>> >> > >>> licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> >> > >>> account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>> >> > >>> l.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> >> > >>> account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> >> > >>> account > info >>> >> > >>> for nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> >> > >>> account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> >> > >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> >> > >>> account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> >> > >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> >> > >>> account > info >>> >> > >>> for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast >>> >> > .net >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> > >> info for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >> >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> >> > 0gmail >>> >> > >> .com >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> > >> info for >>> >> > >> nabs-l: >>> >> > >> >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > > >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> > > info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > > >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >> > info > for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail >>> >> .com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for > nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > .net >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for > nabs-l: >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma > il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast > .net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 05:04:30 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:04:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000201ce3804$61f8c100$25ea4300$@gmail.com> If it were fully accessible, I think it would be great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:15 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Arielle, I agree with you. As with the issue over accessible currency, I think the NFB's point was that these were nice luxuries, not necessities. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree audio description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen should take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this negates the whole purpose of having description at all. Arielle On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Well: > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to > stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I > attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, > and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide > that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take > care of me like I couldn't care for myself! > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further > research, I found that it was impossible. > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in > us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we > are doing divided. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William > Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong > to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice > is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support > both. They both have amazing things going on > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > aedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 05:04:56 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:04:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <002e01ce38c6$e1047990$a30d6cb0$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com>, , <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> <002e01ce38c6$e1047990$a30d6cb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401ce3804$712f6840$538e38c0$@gmail.com> Just as long as we could turn it on or off as we choose. Sometimes, you wouldn't' need it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:17 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! The tenBroek machine? Don't they know he passed away way back in 1968? Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Well: One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take care of me like I couldn't care for myself! At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further research, I found that it was impossible. If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we are doing divided. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support both. They both have amazing things going on _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us Sun Apr 14 10:51:25 2013 From: icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us (Greg Wocher) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 06:51:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! In-Reply-To: <01b701ce37d6$7c789790$7569c6b0$@gmail.com> References: <01b701ce37d6$7c789790$7569c6b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516A8A2D.7050202@gtwebdesign.us> Hello, I also finished the survey. However where do I send the e-mail to be entered into the drawing? Thanks, Greg Wocher Follow me on Twitter @GWocher On 4/12/2013 7:35 PM, justin williams wrote: > I completed your survey. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! > > Hi all, > > I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your > participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. > I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and > that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really > appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget > that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing > for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. > Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my > collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your > help. Thanks so much in advance! > > My name is Katie Wang; I'm a Psychology graduate student at Yale > University. I'm conducting an on-line study on how blind and > visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer > assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a > 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is > 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your > participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 > Amazon.com gift certificate. > > If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take > you directly to the survey. > https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 > If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to > contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for > your time and assistance! > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 13:23:02 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:23:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <516aadeb.2b78ec0a.2f4b.ffff9111@mx.google.com> Carly, I don't see the conection between the evils of capitalism (which I don't believe in anyway) and me wanting to save up for a car. I'd love to help s all those who are oppressed by war and such, but I'm only person. I can't help all of them. I might as well use my money to save up for a car, just like millions of sighties do. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: Kirt, I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone reposted here mentioned. Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might give me in this area. Just my thoughts, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, List, On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! So no, on the car! Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> and companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common tasks. If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely entered into the database. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. ______________________________**_________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org References: <516aadeb.2b78ec0a.2f4b.ffff9111@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> Good moring, Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just fine. Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing >list Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Evening, Josh, > >Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy >trepidation... >As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even >dying >in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers >and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the >unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us >grind on, unabated. >And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >Have a good day! >Carly > >Hello, >Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come >to events and >shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings >every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >constantly face. >Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in >my opinion. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >don't have all >the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if >he dares to >usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >christopher nusbaum >wrote: > >Kirt, > >I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >all >Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >reposted here mentioned. > >Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >give me in this area. > >Just my thoughts, > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >to drive. Where the google car is now is probably >comparable to where >the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >were probably >aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >before it was >viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very >close attention >in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >realistic and safe, >at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >enough away that >I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >trains any time >soon. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >On Behalf Of Carly >Mihalakis >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched >sighted folk seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >having that crap >to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >principles personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a >bus, train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >wrong >with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >control or >a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >screen reader >to >read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >important. The difference is the Google car is going >mainstream and >will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >mainstreem >>> and >companies like Google started making units that used >Jaws and no >screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary >for most >common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >little >or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >jty727%40gmai/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >justin.williams2%40gmail_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.comabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano% >40asu.edurmano%40asu.edu > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Apr 14 14:02:18 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 07:02:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414070022.02005810@comcast.net> Good morning, Chris, Doesn't the Federation believe people ought to have access to everything that ol' Sighty does? Does ol' Sighty not have access to both accessable currency, and descriptive TV? Please explain! Carly09:15 PM 4/13/2013, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >Arielle, > >I agree with you. As with the issue over accessible currency, I think the >NFB's point was that these were nice luxuries, not necessities. > >Chris > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >Silverman >Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:42 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > >Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My >understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. >Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree audio >description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen should >take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that >some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's >cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this negates >the whole purpose of having description at all. >Arielle > >On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Well: > > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to > > stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! > > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! > > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I > > attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" > > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, > > and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide > > that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take > > care of me like I couldn't care for myself! > > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! > > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! > > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further > > research, I found that it was impossible. > > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in > > us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we > > are doing divided. > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William > > Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] > > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > > > > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong > > to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice > > is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support > > both. They both have amazing things going on > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > > aedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > > com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >om > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Apr 14 14:47:46 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 07:47:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414074430.01e3e5b8@comcast.net> Good morning, Suzanne, The blink having access to such financial resources to be able to acquire one of these so-called cars, you must admit are not many since, blind folk who are in fact so gainfully employed, are by far the exception, not the rule. Maybe, for you to talk in tones of such enthusiasm, you must be one of these blind folks?At 01:30 PM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >I was reply to this > >"So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough >for one of these things?" > >So yes that to me implies the "your blind ass" can't afford it not that >everyone can't afford it. > > >On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Hi, Suzanne, > > > > I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income disparity.At > > 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > > >> Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good income > >> and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we as > >> blind individuals cannot make a good living. > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < > >> mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > AMEN. > >> > It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under elaborated > >> > rational. > >> > > >> > Mauricio > >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > >> > > >> > > This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a substantial > >> > living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement > >> > offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list > >> composed > >> > of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful > >> careers. > >> > > > >> > > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > > >> > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Good morning, Suzanne, > >> > >> > >> > >> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough > >> dough > >> > for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how > >> long > >> > it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin williams > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to measure > >> bus > >> > v. > >> > >>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>> From: nabs-l > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] > >> On Behalf Of Suzanne > >> > Germano > >> > >>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM > >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am 49 > >> and > >> > have > >> > >>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 or > >> > more > >> > >>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this has > >> > been > >> > >>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 > >> minutes I > >> > >>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is frustrating > >> to > >> > only > >> > >>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the > >> > freedom to > >> > >>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position that > >> > matches > >> > >>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I > >> get > >> > >>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to > >> work. > >> > Give > >> > >>> me a Google car!! > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < > >> > >>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> Kirt, > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, > >> we > >> > >>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all > >> > >>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than > >> prototypes. > >> > >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over > >> by > >> > >>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which > >> someone > >> > >>>> reposted here mentioned. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > >> > >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, > >> such as > >> > >>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural > >> town in > >> > >>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > >> > >>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > >> > >>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. > >> For > >> > >>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car > >> might > >> > >>>> give me in this area. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Just my thoughts, > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Chris Nusbaum > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < > >> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com > >> > > > >> > >>>> wrote: > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>>> Patrick, > >> > >>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > >> > >>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > >> > >>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > >> > >>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be > >> able > >> > >>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to > >> > >>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see > >> the > >> > >>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were > >> > >>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > >> > >>>>> before it was viable to the general public. > >> > >>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't > >> have > >> > >>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and > >> landing. > >> > >>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close > >> > >>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. > >> > >>>>> Carley, > >> > >>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > >> > >>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > >> > >>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > >> > >>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > >> > >>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and > >> > >>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough > >> > >>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > >> > >>>>> trains any time soon. > >> > >>>>> Best, > >> > >>>>> Kirt > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > >>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>>>>> From: nabs-l > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] > >> On Behalf Of Carly > >> > >>>>>> Mihalakis > >> > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > >> > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > >> > >>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> Hi, List, > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk > >> > >>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their > >> > >>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having > >> > >>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about > >> > >>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > >> > >>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take > >> you > >> > >>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? > >> > >>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta > >> be > >> > >>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > >> > >>>>>> So no, on the car! > >> > >>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > >> > >>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a > >> major > >> > >>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people > >> in > >> > >>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust > >> us > >> > >>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > >> > >>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he > >> will > >> > >>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > >> > >>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Hello, > >> > >>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is > >> already > >> > >>>> going > >> > >>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is > >> nothing > >> > >>>>>>> wrong > >> > >>>>>> with > >> > >>>>>>> backing both cars. > >> > >>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > >> > >>>>>>> control > >> > >>>> or > >> > >>>>>>> a > >> > >>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen > >> > >>>>>>> reader to > >> > >>>>>> read > >> > >>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is > >> very > >> > >>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream > >> > >>>>>>> and > >> > >>>> will > >> > >>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > >> > >>>>>>> mainstreem > >> > >>>> and > >> > >>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no > >> > >>>> screen. > >> > >>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most > >> > >>>>>>> common tasks. > >> > >>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be > >> very > >> > >>>> little > >> > >>>>>>> or > >> > >>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway > >> or > >> > >>>> country > >> > >>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > >> > >>>>>>> completely entered into the database. > >> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist > >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > >> > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent > >> a > >> > >>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > >> > >>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > >> > >>>>>>> superior. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Hello, > >> > >>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > >> > >>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be > >> > >>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it will > >> > >>>>>>> happen very soon. > >> > >>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > >> > >>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google > >> > >>>>>>> would take the challenge. > >> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>>>>>> From: Justin Young > >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > >> > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > >> > >>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > >> interesting > >> > >>>>>>> project. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > >> > >>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on > >> Monday > >> > >>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > >> in > >> > >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > >> > >>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > >> > >>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That > >> > >>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > >> > >>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually > >> > >>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > >> > >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > >> > >>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > >> and > >> > >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > >> > >>>>>>> the company. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > >> > >>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has > >> > >>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the > >> > >>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > >> > >>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > >> > >>>>>>> Through > >> > >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > >> > >>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more > >> > >>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state > >> > >>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that > >> state's > >> > >>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > >> > >>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info > >> > >>>>>>> for > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > jty727%40gmai > >> > >>>>>>> l.com > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info > >> > >>>>>>> for > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > brandonkeithb > >> > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info > >> > >>>>>>> for nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > sweetpeareade > >> > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info > >> > >>>>>>> for > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > brandonkeithb > >> > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info > >> > >>>>>>> for > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > sweetpeareade > >> > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info > >> > >>>>>>> for > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > carlymih%40comcast > >> > >>>> .net > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>>>>> for > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> justin.williams2%4 > >> > >>>> 0gmail > >> > >>>>>> .com > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>>>>> for > >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > kirt.crazydude%40g > >> > >>>> mail.com > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > >>>>> for > >> > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > dotkid.nusbaum%40g > >> > >>>> mail.com > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> > >>> nabs-l: > >> > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > justin.williams2%40gmail > >> > >>> .com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >> > > > >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > >> > > nabs-l mailing list > >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > ______________________________**_________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> > carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > > > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 15:08:30 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:08:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> What you call being self-serving and frivolous, I call being independent. I want to match "Ol' sighty" in his capacity to get around quickly and conveniently. And yes, public transit works, but not well. I know a friend who uses it to get to school, and it takes him two hours. He does that twice a day, so overall, it takes him 4 hours to get to and from school. In a car, it would take him, like, 20 minutes. Why would anyone want to make their lives harder when there's a more convenient option? We live in the richest, greatest country in the world. Why not take advantage of that? I, for one, could buy a car with a totally clear conscience. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carly Mihalakis ,National Association of Blind Students mailing list,National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: Kirt, I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone reposted here mentioned. Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might give me in this area. Just my thoughts, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, List, On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! So no, on the car! Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> and companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common tasks. If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be completely entered into the database. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the company. Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the public, the DMV said. Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other states, including Google's home state of California. "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. Through the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car legislation. Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in Nevada, the DMV said. ______________________________**_________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 16:08:59 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 12:08:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead > of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the > driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in > chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where > there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d > much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before > in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of > Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about > driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay > for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office > quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater > chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can > take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you > think? LOL! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 16:23:00 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 12:23:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414070022.02005810@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414070022.02005810@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi all, I agree with Arielle and Chris. It's frustrating that they don't have some menu feature built in so that the options can be used by a blind person independently. As it is possible to get a lot of the plot details from just listening to the dialog and some of the descriptive information I've heard is about things that aren't important to the movie at all, I see the menu issue as more important and think all DVD and BluRay disks should have it, or at least some standard keystroke on the remote to turn voice access on and off. I think it would be great if you could do something like press zero on your remote and have a voice say something like, "Welcome to the Spoken Menu for Disney's Dispicable Me. For play press 1, for scene selection press 2, for settings press 3, for more press 4." I think that would be amazing. I do think that more television shows should be described though, although in a minimalist sence because I don't like everyy moment of silence in the movie taken up by some monotone person talking. For example, House is the one show I'm crazy about any more, and it wouldn't really require audito description if you've followed the series and know things such as how House looks, that he walks with a limp, etc. All the funny things that happen are snide remarks from him, so a reader wouldn't have to describe it. The thing I think would be most important to describe in this case would be what happens with the patient. E.G. The patient goes rigid and starts convulsing violently. Heart monitors and alarms describe to us that something is happening, but as someone who tries to figure out possible diagnoses along with the show I think that sort of information would be cool to have. On 4/14/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Chris, > > Doesn't the Federation believe people ought to have access to > everything that ol' Sighty does? Does ol' Sighty not have access to > both accessable currency, and descriptive TV? Please explain! > Carly09:15 PM 4/13/2013, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>Arielle, >> >>I agree with you. As with the issue over accessible currency, I think the >>NFB's point was that these were nice luxuries, not necessities. >> >>Chris >> >>Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>Public Relations Committee >>Maryland Association of Blind Students >>Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>Silverman >>Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:42 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! >> >>Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My >>understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. >>Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree >> audio >>description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen >> should >>take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that >>some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's >>cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this >> negates >>the whole purpose of having description at all. >>Arielle >> >>On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >> > Well: >> > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to >> > stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! >> > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! >> > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I >> > attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" >> > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, >> > and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide >> > that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take >> > care of me like I couldn't care for myself! >> > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! >> > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! >> > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further >> > research, I found that it was impossible. >> > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in >> > us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we >> > are doing divided. >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William >> > Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] >> > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! >> > >> > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong >> > to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice >> > is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support >> > both. They both have amazing things going on >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> > aedu.onmicrosoft.com >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> > com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >>om >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Apr 14 16:37:33 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:37:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414070022.02005810@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414093439.01e79c68@comcast.net> Hi, fellow House fan, I aggree with you. Those laconic snarks from Dr. House are the reason people watch it, so, indeed if they were steppped on by some detached monotone, the show would be, as good as recked!At 09:23 AM 4/14/2013, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I agree with Arielle and Chris. It's frustrating that they don't have >some menu feature built in so that the options can be used by a blind >person independently. As it is possible to get a lot of the plot >details from just listening to the dialog and some of the descriptive >information I've heard is about things that aren't important to the >movie at all, I see the menu issue as more important and think all DVD >and BluRay disks should have it, or at least some standard keystroke >on the remote to turn voice access on and off. I think it would be >great if you could do something like press zero on your remote and >have a voice say something like, "Welcome to the Spoken Menu for >Disney's Dispicable Me. For play press 1, for scene selection press >2, for settings press 3, for more press 4." I think that would be >amazing. I do think that more television shows should be described >though, although in a minimalist sence because I don't like everyy >moment of silence in the movie taken up by some monotone person >talking. For example, House is the one show I'm crazy about any more, >and it wouldn't really require audito description if you've followed >the series and know things such as how House looks, that he walks with >a limp, etc. All the funny things that happen are snide remarks from >him, so a reader wouldn't have to describe it. The thing I think >would be most important to describe in this case would be what happens >with the patient. E.G. The patient goes rigid and starts convulsing >violently. Heart monitors and alarms describe to us that something is >happening, but as someone who tries to figure out possible diagnoses >along with the show I think that sort of information would be cool to >have. > >On 4/14/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Chris, > > > > Doesn't the Federation believe people ought to have access to > > everything that ol' Sighty does? Does ol' Sighty not have access to > > both accessable currency, and descriptive TV? Please explain! > > Carly09:15 PM 4/13/2013, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >>Arielle, > >> > >>I agree with you. As with the issue over accessible currency, I think the > >>NFB's point was that these were nice luxuries, not necessities. > >> > >>Chris > >> > >>Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>Public Relations Committee > >>Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > >>Silverman > >>Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:42 PM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > >> > >>Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My > >>understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. > >>Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree > >> audio > >>description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen > >> should > >>take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that > >>some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's > >>cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this > >> negates > >>the whole purpose of having description at all. > >>Arielle > >> > >>On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> > Well: > >> > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to > >> > stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! > >> > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! > >> > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I > >> > attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" > >> > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, > >> > and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide > >> > that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take > >> > care of me like I couldn't care for myself! > >> > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! > >> > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! > >> > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further > >> > research, I found that it was impossible. > >> > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in > >> > us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we > >> > are doing divided. > >> > Blessings, Joshua > >> > ________________________________________ > >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William > >> > Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] > >> > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! > >> > > >> > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong > >> > to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice > >> > is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support > >> > both. They both have amazing things going on > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > >> > aedu.onmicrosoft.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > >> > com > >> > > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum > %40gmail.c > >>om > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Apr 14 16:41:48 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:41:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414093911.01e26968@comcast.net> Well then, Sophie and Robert william, when you guys find enough money to buy one of these, you can gimme a ride or, because of all this trashtalking you wouldn't even do that? Have a beautiful Sunday, guys! Car, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >not do it? > >Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self > > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead > > of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the > > driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in > > chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where > > there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd > > much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before > > in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of > > Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about > > driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay > > for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office > > quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater > > chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can > > take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you > > think? LOL! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Apr 14 17:02:50 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:02:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414095201.01e3ca00@comcast.net> Hi, Sophie, If your intentions are to protect your own interests such as the time you must devote to moving about or the actual doing, then of course, a GOOGLEmobile is for you. Obviously and this goes without saying, It's obvious, for those who care little for the many opsticles this GOOGLEmobile presents, and don't forget there are many, Go right ahead, all! Have a special day! of At 08:08 AM 4/14/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >hat you call being self-serving and frivolous, I call being >independent. I want to match "Ol' sighty" in his capacity to get >around quickly and conveniently. And yes, public transit works, but >not well. I know a friend who uses it to get to school, and it takes >him two hours. He does that twice a day, so overall, it takes him 4 >hours to get to and from school. In a car, it would take him, like, >20 minutes. Why would anyone want to make their lives harder when >there's a more convenient option? We live in the richest, greatest >country in the world. Why not take advantage of that? I, for one, >could buy a car with a totally clear conscience. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing >listDate sent: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 06:51:15 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Good moring, >Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta >airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving >project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs >just fine. >Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be >frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! >Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing >list Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Evening, Josh, > >Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy >trepidation... >As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even >dying >in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers >and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the >unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us >grind on, unabated. >And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >Have a good day! >Carly > >Hello, >Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come >to events and >shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings >every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >constantly face. >Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in >my opinion. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >don't have all >the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if >he dares to >usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >christopher nusbaum >wrote: > >Kirt, > >I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >all >Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >reposted here mentioned. > >Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >give me in this area. > >Just my thoughts, > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >to drive. Where the google car is now is probably >comparable to where >the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >were probably >aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >before it was >viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very >close attention >in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >realistic and safe, >at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >enough away that >I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >trains any time >soon. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >On Behalf Of Carly >Mihalakis >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched >sighted folk seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >having that crap >to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >principles personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a >bus, train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >wrong >with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >control or >a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >screen reader >to >read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >important. The difference is the Google car is going >mainstream and >will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >mainstreem >>> and >companies like Google started making units that used >Jaws and no >screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary >for most >common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >little >or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >jty727%40gmai/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >justin.williams2%40gmail_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.comabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano% >40asu.edurmano%40asu.edu > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 17:19:12 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:19:12 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <002e01ce38c6$e1047990$a30d6cb0$@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com>, <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> , <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com>, , <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> , <002e01ce38c6$e1047990$a30d6cb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: LOL! That's what I'm saying! They don't like that we have a strong leader in Dr. Maurer, while they change presidents every 2 years! Good grief! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Chris Nusbaum [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 11:16 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! The tenBroek machine? Don't they know he passed away way back in 1968? Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! Well: One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take care of me like I couldn't care for myself! At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further research, I found that it was impossible. If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we are doing divided. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support both. They both have amazing things going on _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From samnelson1 at verizon.net Sun Apr 14 17:40:18 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 12:40:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414095201.01e3ca00@comcast.net> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414095201.01e3ca00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000301ce3937$2291ad40$67b507c0$@verizon.net> Hi Everyone, Carley, I can see you're very angry about this, and I think you've made your point. I don't have anything against you for not wanting one of these cars, feeling like it would be self-serving for you to buy one, or feeling like you couldn't ever afford one. And being fine with other forms of transportation. I truly mean this. I wonder why you express so much sarcasim and anger towards others, and say things in the spirit that you do? I think it's fine to express an opinion, but being sarcastic and mean to others, or making them feel like their views/choices are not ok is not the way to go about it. Just a thought you can take it or leave it. I just noticed how angry you are and am curious about why. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, Sophie, If your intentions are to protect your own interests such as the time you must devote to moving about or the actual doing, then of course, a GOOGLEmobile is for you. Obviously and this goes without saying, It's obvious, for those who care little for the many opsticles this GOOGLEmobile presents, and don't forget there are many, Go right ahead, all! Have a special day! of At 08:08 AM 4/14/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >hat you call being self-serving and frivolous, I call being >independent. I want to match "Ol' sighty" in his capacity to get around >quickly and conveniently. And yes, public transit works, but not well. >I know a friend who uses it to get to school, and it takes him two >hours. He does that twice a day, so overall, it takes him 4 hours to >get to and from school. In a car, it would take him, like, >20 minutes. Why would anyone want to make their lives harder when >there's a more convenient option? We live in the richest, greatest >country in the world. Why not take advantage of that? I, for one, could >buy a car with a totally clear conscience. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing >listSubject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Good moring, >Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta >airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving >project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs >just fine. >Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be >frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! >Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Evening, Josh, > >Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way to >bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... >As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in >our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and >sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling >wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on, >unabated. >And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >Have a good day! >Carly > >Hello, >Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events >and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've >never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be >exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the >crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted >drivers constantly face. >Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >opinion. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have >all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing >doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he >dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >christopher nusbaum >wrote: > >Kirt, > >I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >reposted here mentioned. > >Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live >in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >give me in this area. > >Just my thoughts, > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're right; >we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that this thing >isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly viable now, it's >still probably a long ways off before we'll be able to drive. Where >the google car is now is probably comparable to where the internet was >thirty or so years ago; people could see the possibilities, it was >realistic and people "in the know" >were probably >aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally jump >on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, at >least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that I'm >definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time soon. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >On Behalf Of Carly >Mihalakis >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow man, >as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap to >contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a >communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to >drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. Even >my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a self-propelled >car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's safe for us and for >others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >wrong with backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control >or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen >reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is going >mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the same if >Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started making units >that used Jaws and no screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till the >road could be completely entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them >to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, the DMV said. > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >jty727%40gmai/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >justin.williams2%40gmail_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.comabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano% >40asu.edurmano%40asu.edu > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Apr 14 17:57:17 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:57:17 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <000301ce3937$2291ad40$67b507c0$@verizon.net> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414095201.01e3ca00@comcast.net>, <000301ce3937$2291ad40$67b507c0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Sam! Thanks for this post. She likes to curse! That's all there is to it! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sam Nelson [samnelson1 at verizon.net] Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:40 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi Everyone, Carley, I can see you're very angry about this, and I think you've made your point. I don't have anything against you for not wanting one of these cars, feeling like it would be self-serving for you to buy one, or feeling like you couldn't ever afford one. And being fine with other forms of transportation. I truly mean this. I wonder why you express so much sarcasim and anger towards others, and say things in the spirit that you do? I think it's fine to express an opinion, but being sarcastic and mean to others, or making them feel like their views/choices are not ok is not the way to go about it. Just a thought you can take it or leave it. I just noticed how angry you are and am curious about why. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi, Sophie, If your intentions are to protect your own interests such as the time you must devote to moving about or the actual doing, then of course, a GOOGLEmobile is for you. Obviously and this goes without saying, It's obvious, for those who care little for the many opsticles this GOOGLEmobile presents, and don't forget there are many, Go right ahead, all! Have a special day! of At 08:08 AM 4/14/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >hat you call being self-serving and frivolous, I call being >independent. I want to match "Ol' sighty" in his capacity to get around >quickly and conveniently. And yes, public transit works, but not well. >I know a friend who uses it to get to school, and it takes him two >hours. He does that twice a day, so overall, it takes him 4 hours to >get to and from school. In a car, it would take him, like, >20 minutes. Why would anyone want to make their lives harder when >there's a more convenient option? We live in the richest, greatest >country in the world. Why not take advantage of that? I, for one, could >buy a car with a totally clear conscience. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing >listSubject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Good moring, >Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta >airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving >project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs >just fine. >Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be >frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! >Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Evening, Josh, > >Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way to >bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... >As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in >our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and >sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling >wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on, >unabated. >And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >Have a good day! >Carly > >Hello, >Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to events >and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've >never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be >exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the >crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted >drivers constantly face. >Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >opinion. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have >all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing >doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he >dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >christopher nusbaum >wrote: > >Kirt, > >I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >reposted here mentioned. > >Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't live >in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >give me in this area. > >Just my thoughts, > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're right; >we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that this thing >isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly viable now, it's >still probably a long ways off before we'll be able to drive. Where >the google car is now is probably comparable to where the internet was >thirty or so years ago; people could see the possibilities, it was >realistic and people "in the know" >were probably >aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally jump >on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, at >least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that I'm >definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time soon. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >On Behalf Of Carly >Mihalakis >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow man, >as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap to >contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a >communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to >drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. Even >my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a self-propelled >car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's safe for us and for >others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >wrong with backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control >or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen >reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is going >mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the same if >Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started making units >that used Jaws and no screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till the >road could be completely entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them >to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, the DMV said. > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >jty727%40gmai/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >justin.williams2%40gmail_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.comabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano% >40asu.edurmano%40asu.edu > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:29:31 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:29:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! In-Reply-To: <516A8A2D.7050202@gtwebdesign.us> References: <01b701ce37d6$7c789790$7569c6b0$@gmail.com> <516A8A2D.7050202@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: The last page of the survey said emails could be sent to wang.psychlab at gmail.com. On 4/14/13, Greg Wocher wrote: > Hello, > I also finished the survey. However where do I send the e-mail to be > entered into the drawing? > > Thanks, > Greg Wocher > > Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > > On 4/12/2013 7:35 PM, justin williams wrote: >> I completed your survey. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang >> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:02 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] please help with my survey! >> >> Hi all, >> >> I sent out an invitation to all of you a few days ago seeking your >> participation in a survey but have received very few responses so far. >> I understand that this is a busy time of the semester for everyone and >> that there has been a lot of traffic on this list, but I would really >> appreciate it if you can take 10 minutes to fill it out. Don't forget >> that you will have an opportunity to be entered into a prize drawing >> for a $25 Amazon.com gift certificate upon completion of the study. >> Please see below for my original post and the survey link - Both my >> collaborator, Arielle Silverman, and I would be very grateful for your >> help. Thanks so much in advance! >> >> My name is Katie Wang; I'm a Psychology graduate student at Yale >> University. I'm conducting an on-line study on how blind and >> visually-impaired individuals perceive those who seek and offer >> assistance, and I would greatly appreciate your input by taking a >> 10-minute, anonymous survey. Anyone who has a visual impairment and is >> 18 years or older is welcome to participate. In exchange for your >> participation, you will be entered into a prize drawing for a $25 >> Amazon.com gift certificate. >> >> If you are interested, please click on the link below, which will take >> you directly to the survey. >> https://yalepsych.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_etFcWZWrvw5Tqo5 >> If you have questions about this research project, please feel free to >> contact me at katie.wang at yale.edu. Thank you so much in advance for >> your time and assistance! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Apr 14 18:42:28 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:42:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> References: <516aadeb.2b78ec0a.2f4b.ffff9111@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> Message-ID: Public transit serves our need just fine? Really? First of all I don't want to settle for just fine! Apparently you have not really tried to go to many places!!! Because I have lived in major cities San Diego, North Chicago suburb and Phoenix and they are plenty of places the the bus does not even go near not to mention I don't want to take 3 hours to get somewhere. I want a life that is not 5, 6,7 hours a day a a freaking bus!! I have zero desire to ever live in the actual down town of a city. I have had to take en entire day off from work to go to a 15 min doctor appointment because of how long it took on the bus and it was a 25 min car drive. I have ridden the bus for 47 years and I am tired of it! I still hate it. How about grocery shopping? I don't want to be limited to what I can carry walking to the bus stop and then walking form the stop to my house. I want to be free to go where I when when I want and for how long I want and ALONE if I want On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good moring, > Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta > airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving project > as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just fine. > Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be > frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! > Carlycarlymih at comcast.net > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing list < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Evening, Josh, >> >> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy >> trepidation... >> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >> within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even >> dying >> in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers >> and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the >> unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us >> grind on, unabated. >> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >> Have a good day! >> Carly >> >> Hello, >> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come >> to events and >> shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >> been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >> being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings >> every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >> constantly face. >> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >> as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in >> my opinion. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >> don't have all >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if >> he dares to >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >> christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >> all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: >> >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably >> comparable to where >> the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >> were probably >> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >> before it was >> viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very >> close attention >> in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >> realistic and safe, >> at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >> enough away that >> I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> trains any time >> soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org >> >] >> On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched >> sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >> having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >> principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a >> bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> going >> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> wrong >> with >> backing both cars. >> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> control or >> a >> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >> screen reader >> to >> read >> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> important. The difference is the Google car is going >> mainstream and >> will >> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> mainstreem >>> and >> companies like Google started making units that used >> Jaws and no >> screen. >> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary >> for most >> common >> tasks. >> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> little >> or >> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> country >> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> completely >> entered into the database. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> superior. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> into account >> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> if the >> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> could even >> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> the >> challenge. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Justin Young >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> interesting >> project. >> >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> after >> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> nation's >> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> lasers, >> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> cars to >> help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> professor and >> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> vehicle >> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> Nevada, >> the DMV said. >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> jty727%40gmai >> /jty727%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithb >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sweetpeareade >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithb >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sweetpeareade >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> justin.williams2%40gmail >> _nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%**40gmail >> .com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> -l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%**40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net >> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/n >> abs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/****sgermano% >> 40asu.edu >> rmano%40asu.edu >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly% >> 40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Apr 14 18:43:48 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:43:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414070022.02005810@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412234832.01e963b8@comcast.net> <51698393.1050508@gmail.com> <51699C0F.40308@gmail.com> <5834452359790634688@unknownmsgid> <5169A0BA.9070304@gmail.com> <5169F3E6.5040705@gmail.com> <000301ce38a7$66e683c0$34b38b40$@verizon.net> <516A0179.3090608@gmail.com> <516A05D3.1070706@gmail.com> <002d01ce38c6$a2942160$e7bc6420$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414070022.02005810@comcast.net> Message-ID: Describing tv isn't frivolous but having a car is? On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Chris, > > Doesn't the Federation believe people ought to have access to everything > that ol' Sighty does? Does ol' Sighty not have access to both accessable > currency, and descriptive TV? Please explain! Carly09:15 PM 4/13/2013, > Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Arielle, >> >> I agree with you. As with the issue over accessible currency, I think the >> NFB's point was that these were nice luxuries, not necessities. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >> On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:42 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! >> >> Robert is right about NFB's former position on audio description. My >> understanding is that NFB shifted to be more in favor a few years ago. >> Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. I agree >> audio >> description is nice but I also think that reading text on the screen >> should >> take precedence over describing entertainment. Also, I am concerned that >> some audio description features built into television networks or DVD's >> cannot be turned on and off without sighted assistance. To me, this >> negates >> the whole purpose of having description at all. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/13/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >> > Well: >> > One thing the two organizations can do, to heal the division, is to >> > stop hosting their national conventions at the same time! >> > #2. They need to stop bad-mouthing us! >> > We don't talk about them at our conventions, but at the one I >> > attended, they were bad-mouthing the "TenBroek machine!" >> > I was also treated like a baby at the ACB Arkansas state convention, >> > and while I was at the hotel, (this was in 2007,) the sighted guide >> > that they hired wanted to share the room with me, and to try to take >> > care of me like I couldn't care for myself! >> > At that point, I said that I was tired of it and left! >> > Two years later, I discovered the NFB, and I'm glad I did! >> > The Brailled currency is what drew me to the ACB, but after further >> > research, I found that it was impossible. >> > If the ACB would adopt our philosophy of independence, and believe in >> > us, like we believe in ourselves, we'd do a better job united, than we >> > are doing divided. >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ______________________________**__________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Robert William >> > Kingett [kingettr at gmail.com] >> > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:26 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] a video advocating for audio description! >> > >> > I'm a member of the ACB and the NFB at the same time. I don't belong >> > to either camp exclusively. I like what both has to offer. my advice >> > is take what you can from both groups and learn from both, and support >> > both. They both have amazing things going on >> > >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> jlester8462%40pccu >> > aedu.onmicrosoft.com >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> arielle71%40gmail >> . >> > com >> > >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Apr 14 18:48:05 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:48:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414074430.01e3e5b8@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414074430.01e3e5b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. One yes I plan to be one of those gainfully employed. I have been in the past and starting salary for software engineers is close to $90,000 When I was a junior programmer 12 years ago I was making $50,000. I also live with my fiance and so we have two incomes. I plan my life for what I can do and what success I can have. On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Suzanne, > > The blink having access to such financial resources to be able to acquire > one of these so-called cars, you must admit are not many since, blind folk > who are in fact so gainfully employed, are by far the exception, not the > rule. Maybe, for you to talk in tones of such enthusiasm, you must be one > of these blind folks?At 01:30 PM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> I was reply to this >> >> "So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough >> for one of these things?" >> >> So yes that to me implies the "your blind ass" can't afford it not that >> everyone can't afford it. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Carly Mihalakis > >wrote: >> >> > Hi, Suzanne, >> > >> > I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income >> disparity.At >> > 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> > >> >> Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good >> income >> >> and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we as >> >> blind individuals cannot make a good living. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < >> >> mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > AMEN. >> >> > It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under >> elaborated >> >> > rational. >> >> > >> >> > Mauricio >> >> > On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a >> substantial >> >> > living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement >> >> > offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list >> >> composed >> >> > of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful >> >> careers. >> >> > > >> >> > > Sent from my iPhone >> >> > > >> >> > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis < >> carlymih at comcast.net> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > >> Good morning, Suzanne, >> >> > >> >> >> > >> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >> >> dough >> >> > for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how >> >> long >> >> > it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin >> williams >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to >> measure >> >> bus >> >> > v. >> >> > >>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >> >> On Behalf Of Suzanne >> >> > Germano >> >> > >>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >> >> > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am >> 49 >> >> and >> >> > have >> >> > >>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 >> or >> >> > more >> >> > >>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this >> has >> >> > been >> >> > >>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 >> >> minutes I >> >> > >>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is >> frustrating >> >> to >> >> > only >> >> > >>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the >> >> > freedom to >> >> > >>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position >> that >> >> > matches >> >> > >>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I >> >> get >> >> > >>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to >> >> work. >> >> > Give >> >> > >>> me a Google car!! >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >> >> > >>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>>> Kirt, >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google >> car, >> >> we >> >> > >>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >> all >> >> > >>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >> >> prototypes. >> >> > >>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken >> over >> >> by >> >> > >>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >> >> someone >> >> > >>>> reposted here mentioned. >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people >> don't >> >> > >>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >> >> such as >> >> > >>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >> >> town in >> >> > >>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> >> > >>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >> these >> >> > >>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >> reliability. >> >> For >> >> > >>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >> >> might >> >> > >>>> give me in this area. >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Just my thoughts, >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Chris Nusbaum >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >> >> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >> >> > > >> >> > >>>> wrote: >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>>> Patrick, >> >> > >>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> >> > >>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >> that >> >> > >>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's >> realisticly >> >> > >>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be >> >> able >> >> > >>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable >> to >> >> > >>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see >> >> the >> >> > >>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >> >> > >>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to >> go >> >> > >>>>> before it was viable to the general public. >> >> > >>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >> >> have >> >> > >>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >> >> landing. >> >> > >>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> >> > >>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. >> >> > >>>>> Carley, >> >> > >>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >> about >> >> > >>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >> public >> >> > >>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city >> comes to >> >> > >>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >> totally >> >> > >>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic >> and >> >> > >>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >> enough >> >> > >>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> >> > >>>>> trains any time soon. >> >> > >>>>> Best, >> >> > >>>>> Kirt >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams >> wrote: >> >> > >>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >> >> On Behalf Of Carly >> >> > >>>>>> Mihalakis >> >> > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >> National >> >> > >>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> Hi, List, >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >> folk >> >> > >>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd >> their >> >> > >>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >> having >> >> > >>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >> >> > >>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about >> the >> >> > >>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they >> take >> >> you >> >> > >>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >> >> > >>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >> oughta >> >> be >> >> > >>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> > >>>>>> So no, on the car! >> >> > >>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> > >>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >> >> major >> >> > >>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >> people >> >> in >> >> > >>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >> trust >> >> us >> >> > >>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >> > >>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >> >> will >> >> > >>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >> convincing >> >> > >>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Hello, >> >> > >>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >> >> already >> >> > >>>> going >> >> > >>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >> >> nothing >> >> > >>>>>>> wrong >> >> > >>>>>> with >> >> > >>>>>>> backing both cars. >> >> > >>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their >> own >> >> > >>>>>>> control >> >> > >>>> or >> >> > >>>>>>> a >> >> > >>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >> >> > >>>>>>> reader to >> >> > >>>>>> read >> >> > >>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >> >> very >> >> > >>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >> mainstream >> >> > >>>>>>> and >> >> > >>>> will >> >> > >>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> >> > >>>>>>> mainstreem >> >> > >>>> and >> >> > >>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws >> and no >> >> > >>>> screen. >> >> > >>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >> most >> >> > >>>>>>> common tasks. >> >> > >>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >> >> very >> >> > >>>> little >> >> > >>>>>>> or >> >> > >>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >> driveway >> >> or >> >> > >>>> country >> >> > >>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road >> could be >> >> > >>>>>>> completely entered into the database. >> >> > >>>>>>> Thanks, >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >> >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >> > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >> invent >> >> a >> >> > >>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >> convince >> >> > >>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >> > >>>>>>> superior. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > >>>>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Hello, >> >> > >>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be >> taken >> >> > >>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to >> be >> >> > >>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it >> will >> >> > >>>>>>> happen very soon. >> >> > >>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps >> they >> >> > >>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >> Google >> >> > >>>>>>> would take the challenge. >> >> > >>>>>>> Thanks, >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >>>>>>> From: Justin Young >> >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >> > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market >> for >> >> > >>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >> interesting >> >> > >>>>>>> project. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett >> wrote: >> >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >> roads >> >> > >>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on >> >> Monday >> >> > >>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on >> highways, >> >> in >> >> > >>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas >> Strip, >> >> > >>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >> for >> >> > >>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. >> That >> >> > >>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar >> sensors, >> >> > >>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >> >> > >>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >> > >>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >> > >>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate >> Bridge >> >> and >> >> > >>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >> according to >> >> > >>>>>>> the company. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >> > >>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also >> has >> >> > >>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >> >> > >>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered >> in >> >> > >>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human >> error. >> >> > >>>>>>> Through >> >> > >>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an >> autonomous >> >> > >>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >> >> > >>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California >> state >> >> > >>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that >> >> state's >> >> > >>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car >> licenses in >> >> > >>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info >> >> > >>>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> jty727%40gmai> nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> l.com >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info >> >> > >>>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithb> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info >> >> > >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sweetpeareade> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info >> >> > >>>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithb> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info >> >> > >>>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sweetpeareade> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info >> >> > >>>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> carlymih%40comcast> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast >> > >> >> > >>>> .net >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> >> > >>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> justin.williams2%4 >> >> > >>>> 0gmail >> >> > >>>>>> .com >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> >> > >>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> kirt.crazydude%40g> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.**crazydude%40g >> > >> >> > >>>> mail.com >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> >> > >>>>> for >> >> > >>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40g> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.**nusbaum%40g >> > >> >> > >>>> mail.com >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> >> for >> >> > >>>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sgermano%40asu.edu> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >> > >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> > >>> nabs-l: >> >> > >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> justin.williams2%40gmail> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.**williams2%40gmail >> > >> >> > >>> .com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/** >> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ______________________________****_________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sgermano%40asu.edu> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >> > >> >> > >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > ______________________________****_________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**** >> sgermano%40asu.edu >> > 40asu.edu >> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Apr 14 18:50:05 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:50:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This is my situation right now but close to 2.5 hours each way to school for a 25 min car ride and yes when ever my fiance is not a business he pick me up because eh thinks it's stupid for me to waste all that time on the bus. I do take it in the morning. I take one of the two buses he drops me off at the stop 2 miles form our house it save me 40 minutes. On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Sophie Trist wrote: > What you call being self-serving and frivolous, I call being independent. > I want to match "Ol' sighty" in his capacity to get around quickly and > conveniently. And yes, public transit works, but not well. I know a friend > who uses it to get to school, and it takes him two hours. He does that > twice a day, so overall, it takes him 4 hours to get to and from school. In > a car, it would take him, like, 20 minutes. Why would anyone want to make > their lives harder when there's a more convenient option? We live in the > richest, greatest country in the world. Why not take advantage of that? I, > for one, could buy a car with a totally clear conscience. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ,National > Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 06:51:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Good moring, > Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta > airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving > project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs > just fine. > Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be > frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! > Carlycarlymih at comcast.net > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > ,National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Evening, Josh, > > Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a > substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably > realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way > to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy > trepidation... > As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters > within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even > dying > in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers > and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the > unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us > grind on, unabated. > And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? > Have a good day! > Carly > > Hello, > Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come > to events and > shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never > been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like > being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings > every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers > constantly face. > Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom > as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in > my opinion. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can > take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this > if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > > You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without > fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we > don't have all > the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't > murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if > he dares to > usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, > christopher nusbaum > wrote: > > Kirt, > > I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we > must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that > all > Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. > This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by > human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone > reposted here mentioned. > > Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't > live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as > Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in > Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are > paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these > options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For > this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might > give me in this area. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably > comparable to where > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" > were probably > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go > before it was > viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very > close attention > in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were > realistic and safe, > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far > enough away that > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and > trains any time > soon. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: > Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org > >] > On Behalf Of Carly > Mihalakis > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi, List, > > On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched > sighted folk seem > to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow > man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not > having that crap > to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever > affording such a car. And, I don't care about the > principles personal > cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a > bus, train, or > friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be > a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! > So no, on the car! > Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: > I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major > milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in > sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us > to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was > computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will > never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing > them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello, > The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already > going > mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing > wrong > with > backing both cars. > The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own > control or > a > computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a > screen reader > to > read > a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very > important. The difference is the Google car is going > mainstream and > will > have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went > mainstreem >>> and > companies like Google started making units that used > Jaws and no > screen. > Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary > for most > common > tasks. > If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very > little > or > no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or > country > road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be > completely > entered into the database. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a > self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince > them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is > superior. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello, > Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken > into account > I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but > if the > government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. > I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they > could even > ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take > the > challenge. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Young > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for > individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very > interesting > project. > > On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads > after > the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the > nation's > first autonomous vehicle license. > > The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, > in > Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, > the > Nevada DMV said in a statement. > > The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for > the > state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law > went > into effect on March 1, 2012. > > Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, > lasers, > and a database of information collected from manually driven > cars to > help navigate, according to the company. > > The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its > experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford > professor and > Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > > Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge > and > driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to > the > company. > > Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV > director > Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to > eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of > the > public, the DMV said. > > Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in > other > states, including Google's home state of California. > > "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. > Through > the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous > vehicle > is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and > operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator > Alex > Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous > car > legislation. > > Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in > Nevada, > the DMV said. > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > jty727%40gmai > /jty727%40gmai > l.com > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > brandonkeithb > /brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > sweetpeareade > /sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > brandonkeithb > /brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > sweetpeareade > /sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > carlymih%40comcast.net > fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > justin.williams2%40gmail > _nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%**40gmail > .com > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > -l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%**40gmail.com > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > carlymih%40comcast.net > fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net > > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com > > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/n > abs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > ______________________________****_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/****sgermano% > 40asu.edu > rmano%40asu.edu > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**jlester8462%4 > 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co > mcast.net > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly% > 40gmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co > mcast.net > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co > mcast.net > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:00:38 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:00:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000301ce3942$5b152420$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> Please watch the cussing. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Germano" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > This is my situation right now but close to 2.5 hours each way to school > for a 25 min car ride and yes when ever my fiance is not a business he > pick > me up because eh thinks it's stupid for me to waste all that time on the > bus. I do take it in the morning. I take one of the two buses he drops me > off at the stop 2 miles form our house it save me 40 minutes. > > > On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Sophie Trist > wrote: > >> What you call being self-serving and frivolous, I call being independent. >> I want to match "Ol' sighty" in his capacity to get around quickly and >> conveniently. And yes, public transit works, but not well. I know a >> friend >> who uses it to get to school, and it takes him two hours. He does that >> twice a day, so overall, it takes him 4 hours to get to and from school. >> In >> a car, it would take him, like, 20 minutes. Why would anyone want to make >> their lives harder when there's a more convenient option? We live in the >> richest, greatest country in the world. Why not take advantage of that? >> I, >> for one, could buy a car with a totally clear conscience. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Carly Mihalakis > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> ,National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list> Date sent: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 06:51:15 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Good moring, >> Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta >> airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving >> project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs >> just fine. >> Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be >> frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! >> Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> ,National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list > Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Evening, Josh, >> >> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy >> trepidation... >> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >> within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even >> dying >> in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers >> and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the >> unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us >> grind on, unabated. >> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >> Have a good day! >> Carly >> >> Hello, >> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come >> to events and >> shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >> been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >> being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings >> every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >> constantly face. >> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >> as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in >> my opinion. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >> fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >> don't have all >> the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >> murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if >> he dares to >> usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >> christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >> all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: >> >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably >> comparable to where >> the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >> were probably >> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >> before it was >> viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very >> close attention >> in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >> realistic and safe, >> at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >> enough away that >> I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> trains any time >> soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org >> >] >> On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched >> sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >> having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >> principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a >> bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> going >> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >> wrong >> with >> backing both cars. >> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> control or >> a >> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >> screen reader >> to >> read >> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> important. The difference is the Google car is going >> mainstream and >> will >> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >> mainstreem >>> and >> companies like Google started making units that used >> Jaws and no >> screen. >> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary >> for most >> common >> tasks. >> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> little >> or >> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >> country >> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> completely >> entered into the database. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> superior. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> into account >> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> if the >> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> could even >> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> the >> challenge. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Justin Young >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> interesting >> project. >> >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> after >> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> nation's >> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> lasers, >> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> cars to >> help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> professor and >> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> vehicle >> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> Nevada, >> the DMV said. >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> jty727%40gmai >> /jty727%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithb >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sweetpeareade >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithb >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> sweetpeareade >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> justin.williams2%40gmail >> _nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%**40gmail >> .com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> -l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%**40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net >> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/n >> abs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/****sgermano% >> 40asu.edu >> rmano%40asu.edu >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly% >> 40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 14 19:08:47 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:08:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Hi all, I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead > of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the > driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in > chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where > there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d > much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before > in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of > Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about > driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay > for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office > quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater > chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can > take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you > think? LOL! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Apr 14 19:24:10 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 12:24:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Obviously if the Google car is available for the blind then they will have proven there is no need to override. The entire point is the car deals with being cut off, pedestrians etc. I feel much safer as a driver in a Google car then the people who are not paying attention to the rode, texting, talking on the phone, drunk etc There is inherent risk driving or riding in any car as a driver or passenger. On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like > you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to > hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override > the car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self > serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us > when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and > you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, > and drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it > when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to > some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn > without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians > who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to > see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected > hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you > never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want > to be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but > we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >> think? LOL! >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> > > -- > Kaiti > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:27:10 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:27:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to > hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self > serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us > when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and > you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it > when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to > some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn > without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted > drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to > see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected > hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you > never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >> think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:31:37 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:31:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5C9621CC-6880-400B-AEB9-7876553A2CBC@gmail.com> The whole idea is that the car does the driving, judging of hazards and reacting as needed. They won't release a car like this to the public if it still requires human override at all. That would actually create MORE dangers to others. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2013, at 1:08 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >> think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:36:05 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:36:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <003a01ce3947$4ecde260$ec69a720$@gmail.com> Amen, Patrick! Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:38:38 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:38:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414074430.01e3e5b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6E4DA2BD-CA69-4D0C-B777-C6E11E5A4054@gmail.com> Here here, Suzanne! Gainful employment is something you have to want in order to have and there's no reason any blind person who wants it and works for it can't have it. I, myself, am pursuing robotics engineering while learning to program on the side. You can bet your life ill be in line to buy a car by the time one is available for me. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:48 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. > > One yes I plan to be one of those gainfully employed. I have been in the > past and starting salary for software engineers is close to $90,000 When I > was a junior programmer 12 years ago I was making $50,000. I also live with > my fiance and so we have two incomes. > > I plan my life for what I can do and what success I can have. > > > On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> Good morning, Suzanne, >> >> The blink having access to such financial resources to be able to acquire >> one of these so-called cars, you must admit are not many since, blind folk >> who are in fact so gainfully employed, are by far the exception, not the >> rule. Maybe, for you to talk in tones of such enthusiasm, you must be one >> of these blind folks?At 01:30 PM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >>> I was reply to this >>> >>> "So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough >>> for one of these things?" >>> >>> So yes that to me implies the "your blind ass" can't afford it not that >>> everyone can't afford it. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Suzanne, >>>> >>>> I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income >>> disparity.At >>>> 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> >>>>> Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good >>> income >>>>> and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we as >>>>> blind individuals cannot make a good living. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < >>>>> mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> AMEN. >>>>>> It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under >>> elaborated >>>>>> rational. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mauricio >>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a >>> substantial >>>>>> living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement >>>>>> offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list >>>>> composed >>>>>> of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful >>>>> careers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis < >>> carlymih at comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good morning, Suzanne, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >>>>> dough >>>>>> for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how >>>>> long >>>>>> it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin >>> williams >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to >>> measure >>>>> bus >>>>>> v. >>>>>>>>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>> On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>>> Germano >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am >>> 49 >>>>> and >>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 >>> or >>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this >>> has >>>>>> been >>>>>>>>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 >>>>> minutes I >>>>>>>>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is >>> frustrating >>>>> to >>>>>> only >>>>>>>>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the >>>>>> freedom to >>>>>>>>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position >>> that >>>>>> matches >>>>>>>>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I >>>>> get >>>>>>>>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to >>>>> work. >>>>>> Give >>>>>>>>> me a Google car!! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >>>>>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google >>> car, >>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >>> all >>>>>>>>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >>>>> prototypes. >>>>>>>>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken >>> over >>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>> reposted here mentioned. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people >>> don't >>>>>>>>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >>>>> such as >>>>>>>>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >>>>> town in >>>>>>>>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>>>>>>>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >>> these >>>>>>>>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >>> reliability. >>>>> For >>>>>>>>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >>>>> might >>>>>>>>>> give me in this area. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >>>>> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>>>>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>>>>>>>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >>> that >>>>>>>>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's >>> realisticly >>>>>>>>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be >>>>> able >>>>>>>>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable >>> to >>>>>>>>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>>>>>>>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to >>> go >>>>>>>>>>> before it was viable to the general public. >>>>>>>>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >>>>> landing. >>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>>>>>>>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. >>>>>>>>>>> Carley, >>>>>>>>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>> about >>>>>>>>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >>> public >>>>>>>>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city >>> comes to >>>>>>>>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >>> totally >>>>>>>>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >>> enough >>>>>>>>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >>>>>>>>>>> trains any time soon. >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>> On Behalf Of Carly >>>>>>>>>>>> Mihalakis >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>> National >>>>>>>>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >>> folk >>>>>>>>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd >>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >>> having >>>>>>>>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >>>>>>>>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they >>> take >>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >>> oughta >>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>>>>>>>>>> So no, on the car! >>>>>>>>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >>>>> major >>>>>>>>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >>> people >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >>> trust >>>>> us >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>> convincing >>>>>>>>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >>>>> already >>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >>>>> nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> backing both cars. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their >>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>>>>>>>>>>>> reader to >>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstreem >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws >>> and no >>>>>>>>>> screen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>> common tasks. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>> driveway >>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> country >>>>>>>>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road >>> could be >>>>>>>>>>>>> completely entered into the database. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >>> invent >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>> convince >>>>>>>>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>>>>>>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be >>> taken >>>>>>>>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to >>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it >>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> happen very soon. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps >>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>> would take the challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market >>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>> project. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >>> roads >>>>>>>>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on >>>>> Monday >>>>>>>>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on >>> highways, >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas >>> Strip, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. >>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar >>> sensors, >>>>>>>>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >>>>>>>>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>>>>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>>>>>>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate >>> Bridge >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >>> according to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>>>>>>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also >>> has >>>>>>>>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered >>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human >>> error. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Through >>>>>>>>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an >>> autonomous >>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California >>> state >>>>>>>>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that >>>>> state's >>>>>>>>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car >>> licenses in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> jty727%40gmai>> nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> brandonkeithb>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sweetpeareade>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> brandonkeithb>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sweetpeareade>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> carlymih%40comcast>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast >>>> >>>>>>>>>> .net >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> justin.williams2%4 >>>>>>>>>> 0gmail >>>>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> kirt.crazydude%40g>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.**crazydude%40g >>>> >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> dotkid.nusbaum%40g>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.**nusbaum%40g >>>> >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >>>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.**williams2%40gmail >>>> >>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/** >>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >>>> >>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**** >>> sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> 40asu.edu >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:48:06 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:48:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <6E4DA2BD-CA69-4D0C-B777-C6E11E5A4054@gmail.com> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414074430.01e3e5b8@comcast.net> <6E4DA2BD-CA69-4D0C-B777-C6E11E5A4054@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you don't WANT to be employed, you'll make excuses why you can't get a job. I, myself, intend to be a lawyer and will most definitely be in line for one of these cars as soon as they're on the market and as soon as I can afford it. Patrick On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > Here here, Suzanne! Gainful employment is something you have to want in > order to have and there's no reason any blind person who wants it and works > for it can't have it. I, myself, am pursuing robotics engineering while > learning to program on the side. You can bet your life ill be in line to buy > a car by the time one is available for me. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:48 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. >> >> One yes I plan to be one of those gainfully employed. I have been in the >> past and starting salary for software engineers is close to $90,000 When >> I >> was a junior programmer 12 years ago I was making $50,000. I also live >> with >> my fiance and so we have two incomes. >> >> I plan my life for what I can do and what success I can have. >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >>> Good morning, Suzanne, >>> >>> The blink having access to such financial resources to be able to >>> acquire >>> one of these so-called cars, you must admit are not many since, blind >>> folk >>> who are in fact so gainfully employed, are by far the exception, not the >>> rule. Maybe, for you to talk in tones of such enthusiasm, you must be >>> one >>> of these blind folks?At 01:30 PM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> >>>> I was reply to this >>>> >>>> "So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >>>> dough >>>> for one of these things?" >>>> >>>> So yes that to me implies the "your blind ass" can't afford it not that >>>> everyone can't afford it. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, Suzanne, >>>>> >>>>> I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income >>>> disparity.At >>>>> 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good >>>> income >>>>>> and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we >>>>>> as >>>>>> blind individuals cannot make a good living. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < >>>>>> mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> AMEN. >>>>>>> It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under >>>> elaborated >>>>>>> rational. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mauricio >>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a >>>> substantial >>>>>>> living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement >>>>>>> offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list >>>>>> composed >>>>>>> of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful >>>>>> careers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis < >>>> carlymih at comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning, Suzanne, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >>>>>> dough >>>>>>> for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how >>>>>> long >>>>>>> it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin >>>> williams >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to >>>> measure >>>>>> bus >>>>>>> v. >>>>>>>>>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>>> On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>>>> Germano >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am >>>> 49 >>>>>> and >>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 >>>> or >>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this >>>> has >>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 >>>>>> minutes I >>>>>>>>>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is >>>> frustrating >>>>>> to >>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the >>>>>>> freedom to >>>>>>>>>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position >>>> that >>>>>>> matches >>>>>>>>>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I >>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to >>>>>> work. >>>>>>> Give >>>>>>>>>> me a Google car!! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >>>>>>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google >>>> car, >>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >>>> all >>>>>>>>>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >>>>>> prototypes. >>>>>>>>>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken >>>> over >>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >>>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>>> reposted here mentioned. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people >>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >>>>>> such as >>>>>>>>>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >>>>>> town in >>>>>>>>>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>>>>>>>>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >>>> reliability. >>>>>> For >>>>>>>>>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>> give me in this area. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >>>>>> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>>>>>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>>>>>>>>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's >>>> realisticly >>>>>>>>>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be >>>>>> able >>>>>>>>>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable >>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>>>>>>>>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to >>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>> before it was viable to the general public. >>>>>>>>>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >>>>>> landing. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>>>>>>>>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>> Carley, >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city >>>> comes to >>>>>>>>>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >>>> totally >>>>>>>>>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic >>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >>>> enough >>>>>>>>>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >>>>>>>>>>>> trains any time soon. >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>>> On Behalf Of Carly >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mihalakis >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>>> National >>>>>>>>>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >>>> folk >>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd >>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >>>> having >>>>>>>>>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >>>>>>>>>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they >>>> take >>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >>>> oughta >>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>>>>>>>>>>> So no, on the car! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >>>>>> major >>>>>>>>>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >>>> people >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >>>> trust >>>>>> us >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>>> convincing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >>>>>> nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> backing both cars. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their >>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reader to >>>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstreem >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws >>>> and no >>>>>>>>>>> screen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>>> common tasks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>>> driveway >>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> country >>>>>>>>>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road >>>> could be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely entered into the database. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >>>> invent >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>>> convince >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be >>>> taken >>>>>>>>>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to >>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it >>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> happen very soon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps >>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would take the challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market >>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> project. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >>>> roads >>>>>>>>>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on >>>>>> Monday >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on >>>> highways, >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas >>>> Strip, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. >>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar >>>> sensors, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>>>>>>>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate >>>> Bridge >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >>>> according to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>>>>>>>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also >>>> has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered >>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human >>>> error. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an >>>> autonomous >>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California >>>> state >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that >>>>>> state's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car >>>> licenses in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> jty727%40gmai>>> nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> brandonkeithb>>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> sweetpeareade>>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> brandonkeithb>>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> sweetpeareade>>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> carlymih%40comcast>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .net >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> justin.williams2%4 >>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail >>>>>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40g>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.**crazydude%40g >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum%40g>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.**nusbaum%40g >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.**williams2%40gmail >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/** >>>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**** >>>> sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> 40asu.edu >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:50:44 2013 From: blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com (Aleeha Dudley) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:50:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hello all, I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car and about the attitude of some list members. First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting us to drive on the roads. The second part of my message concerns the language some people are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please consider other list members who may not condone such language or who may be younger than most of us. Thank you, Aleeha On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to > hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self > serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us > when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and > you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it > when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to > some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn > without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted > drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to > see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected > hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you > never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >> think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 20:04:00 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:04:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net> <16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414074430.01e3e5b8@comcast.net> <6E4DA2BD-CA69-4D0C-B777-C6E11E5A4054@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008801ce3882$0a5a5840$1f0f08c0$@gmail.com> Good for you man. I got about seven or eight years before I can even consider it. I'll be excited for you. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you don't WANT to be employed, you'll make excuses why you can't get a job. I, myself, intend to be a lawyer and will most definitely be in line for one of these cars as soon as they're on the market and as soon as I can afford it. Patrick On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > Here here, Suzanne! Gainful employment is something you have to want > in order to have and there's no reason any blind person who wants it > and works for it can't have it. I, myself, am pursuing robotics > engineering while learning to program on the side. You can bet your > life ill be in line to buy a car by the time one is available for me. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:48 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. >> >> One yes I plan to be one of those gainfully employed. I have been in >> the past and starting salary for software engineers is close to >> $90,000 When I was a junior programmer 12 years ago I was making >> $50,000. I also live with my fiance and so we have two incomes. >> >> I plan my life for what I can do and what success I can have. >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >>> Good morning, Suzanne, >>> >>> The blink having access to such financial resources to be able to >>> acquire one of these so-called cars, you must admit are not many >>> since, blind folk who are in fact so gainfully employed, are by far >>> the exception, not the rule. Maybe, for you to talk in tones of such >>> enthusiasm, you must be one of these blind folks?At 01:30 PM >>> 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> >>>> I was reply to this >>>> >>>> "So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >>>> dough for one of these things?" >>>> >>>> So yes that to me implies the "your blind ass" can't afford it not >>>> that everyone can't afford it. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, Suzanne, >>>>> >>>>> I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income >>>> disparity.At >>>>> 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a >>>>>> good >>>> income >>>>>> and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that >>>>>> we as blind individuals cannot make a good living. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < >>>>>> mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> AMEN. >>>>>>> It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under >>>> elaborated >>>>>>> rational. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mauricio >>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a >>>> substantial >>>>>>> living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this >>>>>>> statement offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a >>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>> composed >>>>>>> of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing >>>>>>> gainful >>>>>> careers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis < >>>> carlymih at comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good morning, Suzanne, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having >>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>> dough >>>>>>> for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter >>>>>>> how >>>>>> long >>>>>>> it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin >>>> williams >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to >>>> measure >>>>>> bus >>>>>>> v. >>>>>>>>>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>>> On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>>>> Germano >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>> 49 >>>>>> and >>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes >>>>>>>>>> me 2 >>>> or >>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And >>>>>>>>>> this >>>> has >>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 >>>>>> minutes I >>>>>>>>>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is >>>> frustrating >>>>>> to >>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> freedom to >>>>>>>>>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the >>>>>>>>>> position >>>> that >>>>>>> matches >>>>>>>>>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the >>>>>>>>>> time I >>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>> work. >>>>>>> Give >>>>>>>>>> me a Google car!! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >>>>>>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google >>>> car, >>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>> all >>>>>>>>>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >>>>>> prototypes. >>>>>>>>>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken >>>> over >>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story >>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>>> reposted here mentioned. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people >>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily >>>>>>>>>>> available, >>>>>> such as >>>>>>>>>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi >>>>>>>>>>> rural >>>>>> town in >>>>>>>>>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation >>>>>>>>>>> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, >>>>>>>>>>> neither of >>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >>>> reliability. >>>>>> For >>>>>>>>>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google >>>>>>>>>>> car >>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>> give me in this area. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >>>>>> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>>>>>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope >>>>>>>>>>>> you're right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only >>>>>>>>>>>> point was >>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's >>>> realisticly >>>>>>>>>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before >>>>>>>>>>>> we'll be >>>>>> able >>>>>>>>>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably >>>>>>>>>>>> comparable >>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could >>>>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >>>>>>>>>>>> were probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long >>>>>>>>>>>> way to >>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>> before it was viable to the general public. >>>>>>>>>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots >>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >>>>>> landing. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very >>>>>>>>>>>> close attention in the event something goes wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>> Carley, >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city >>>> comes to >>>>>>>>>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >>>> totally >>>>>>>>>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >>>>>>>>>>>> realistic >>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >>>> enough >>>>>>>>>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses >>>>>>>>>>>> and trains any time soon. >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>>> On Behalf Of Carly >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mihalakis >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>>> National >>>>>>>>>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched >>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted >>>> folk >>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd >>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >>>> having >>>>>>>>>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident >>>>>>>>>>>>> about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> care about >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they >>>> take >>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >>>> oughta >>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>>>>>>>>>>> So no, on the car! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>>> major >>>>>>>>>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >>>> people >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >>>> trust >>>>>> us >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> says he >>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>>> convincing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >>>>>> nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> backing both cars. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> screen reader to >>>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reader is >>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws >>>>>>>>>>>>>> went mainstreem >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws >>>> and no >>>>>>>>>>> screen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>>> common tasks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>>> driveway >>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> country >>>>>>>>>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road >>>> could be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely entered into the database. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >>>> invent >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>>> convince >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be >>>> taken >>>>>>>>>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> happen very soon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps >>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would take the challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> market >>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> project. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nevada >>>> roads >>>>>>>>>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>> Monday >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on >>>> highways, >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas >>>> Strip, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cars >>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. >>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar >>>> sensors, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> its experimental driver-less technology, developed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stanford professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate >>>> Bridge >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >>>> according to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DMV director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state >>>>>>>>>>>>>> also >>>> has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the members of the public, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being >>>>>>>>>>>>>> considered >>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human >>>> error. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an >>>> autonomous >>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," >>>>>>>>>>>>>> California >>>> state >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>> state's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car >>>> licenses in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> >>>>>> jty727%40gmai>>> nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai>>> fbnet.org/jty727%40gmai> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> >>>>>> brandonkeithb>>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb>>> fbnet.org/brandonkeithb> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> >>>>>> sweetpeareade>>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade>>> fbnet.org/sweetpeareade> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> >>>>>> brandonkeithb>>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb>>> fbnet.org/brandonkeithb> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> >>>>>> sweetpeareade>>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade>>> fbnet.org/sweetpeareade> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> carlymih%40comcast>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast>>> tions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .net >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>>>> ttp://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> justin.williams2%4 >>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail >>>>>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>>>> ttp://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40g>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.**crazydude%40g>>> tions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>>> tp://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum%40g>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.**nusbaum%40g>>> tions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>>> p://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu>>> tions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>> ://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.**williams2%40gmail>>> man/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>>>> ://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net>>> n/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com>>> man/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>> /nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/** >>>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com>>> bnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmai >>>> l.com> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>> nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu>>> tions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu> >>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>> fbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>>>>> /nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net>>> n/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>> bnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> >>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**** >>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>>> t.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu> >>>> >>> * >>>> 40asu.edu>>> ano%40asu.edu> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>> t.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>>> net.org/carlymih%40comcast.net> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> .org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40a >>> su.edu>> 40asu.edu> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gm >> ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 20:07:24 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:07:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130412093711.01ec56b8@comcast.net> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412093711.01ec56b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5043986624908759527@unknownmsgid> Unless they fix it, which they are working on. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 12:39 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, guys, > > Does that not deveat the purpose of said car and blind folks?CarAt 06:03 AM 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> > >> > You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> >> Kirt, >> >> >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >> >> reposted here mentioned. >> >> >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >> >> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >> >> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >> >> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >> >> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >> >> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >> >> give me in this area. >> >> >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> >> >> > Patrick, >> >> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> >> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> >> > this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> >> > viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> >> > to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to where >> >> > the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> >> > possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were probably >> >> > aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> >> > viable to the general public. >> >> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> >> > to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> >> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close attention >> >> > in the event something goes wrong. >> >> > Carley, >> >> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> >> > driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> >> > transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> >> > mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> >> > jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and safe, >> >> > at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough away that >> >> > I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and trains any time >> >> > soon. >> >> > Best, >> >> > Kirt >> >> > >> >> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >> >> >> Mihalakis >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> >> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, List, >> >> >> >> >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> >> >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> >> >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> >> >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> >> >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> >> >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> >> >> friend/driver cannot? >> >> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >> >> >> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> >> So no, on the car! >> >> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> >> >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> >> >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >> >> >>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >> >> >>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >> >> >>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >> >> >>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >> > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hello, >> >> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already going >> >> >>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing wrong >> >> >> with >> >> >>> backing both cars. >> >> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own control or >> >> >>> a >> >> >>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen reader to >> >> >> read >> >> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >> >> >>> important. The difference is the Google car is going mainstream and will >> >> >>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went mainstreem and >> >> >>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >> >> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most common >> >> >>> tasks. >> >> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very little >> >> >>> or >> >> >>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or country >> >> >>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >> >> >>> completely >> >> >>> entered into the database. >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> >> >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >> >> >>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >> >> >>> superior. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>> > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hello, >> >> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >> >> >>> into account >> >> >>> I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >> >> >>> if the >> >> >>> government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> >> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >> >>> could even >> >> >>> ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> challenge. >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> From: Justin Young >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> >> >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >> >>> interesting >> >> >>> project. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> >> >>> after >> >> >>> the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> >> >>> nation's >> >> >>> first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >> >> >>> in >> >> >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >> >> >>> went >> >> >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> >> >>> lasers, >> >> >>> and a database of information collected from manually driven >> >> >>> cars to >> >> >>> help navigate, according to the company. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >> >>> professor and >> >> >>> Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> >> >>> and >> >> >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> company. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >> >>> director >> >> >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> >> >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> public, the DMV said. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >> >>> other >> >> >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >> >>> Through >> >> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >> >>> vehicle >> >> >>> is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >> >> >>> operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >> >> >>> Alex >> >> >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >> >> >>> car >> >> >>> legislation. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> >> >>> Nevada, >> >> >>> the DMV said. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> info for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >> >> >>> l.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >>> for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >>> for nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 20:09:56 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:09:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <008a01ce3882$def19000$9cd4b000$@gmail.com> Because one of our major barriers is transportation rright? It's one of my big deals. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 20:13:26 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:13:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <008c01ce3883$5c26c900$14745b00$@gmail.com> Of course, if there si an override options that must be operated by a sighted human, then it wou's work for us. However, when there is a fix, I can't wait to see some of us driving. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi all, I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on > if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here > in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL > where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So > yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have > said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along > the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm > frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor > me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus > allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non > self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat little > circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 20:23:07 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:23:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <5043986624908759527@unknownmsgid> References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net> <005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com> <-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412051028.01e521a0@comcast.net> <3394693535085792377@unknownmsgid> <7.0.1.0.2.20130412093711.01ec56b8@comcast.net> <5043986624908759527@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <008e01ce3884$b61dd510$22597f30$@gmail.com> Outstanding. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 4:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Unless they fix it, which they are working on. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2013, at 12:39 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, guys, > > Does that not deveat the purpose of said car and blind folks?CarAt 06:03 AM 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> > >> > You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum wrote: >> >> Kirt, >> >> >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, >> >> we must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >> >> all Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over >> >> by human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >> >> someone reposted here mentioned. >> >> >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >> >> such as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi >> >> rural town in Maryland, where our only options For public >> >> transportation are paratransit and a cab service. As you can >> >> imagine, neither of these options are preferable Because of the >> >> cost if not the reliability. For this reason, I would love the >> >> independence that the Google car might give me in this area. >> >> >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> >> >> > Patrick, >> >> > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> >> > right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >> >> > that this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's >> >> > realisticly viable now, it's still probably a long ways off >> >> > before we'll be able to drive. Where the google car is now is >> >> > probably comparable to where the internet was thirty or so years >> >> > ago; people could see the possibilities, it was realistic and >> >> > people "in the know" were probably aware it was coming...but it >> >> > still had a long way to go before it was viable to the general public. >> >> > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >> >> > have to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> >> > Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> >> > attention in the event something goes wrong. >> >> > Carley, >> >> > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >> >> > about driving. In most places it is probably more efficient >> >> > than public transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York >> >> > city comes to mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, >> >> > I would totally jump on the chance to drive if I could and it >> >> > were realistic and safe, at least most of the time. That being >> >> > said, it's far enough away that I'm definitely not going to stop >> >> > riding my busses and trains any time soon. >> >> > Best, >> >> > Kirt >> >> > >> >> > On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >> >> Carly Mihalakis >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >> >> >> National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, List, >> >> >> >> >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >> >> >> folk seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd >> >> >> their fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful >> >> >> not having that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not >> >> >> confident about chances of ever affording such a car. And, I >> >> >> don't care about the principles personal cars supposedly >> >> >> afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >> >> >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >> >> >> oughta be a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> >> >> So no, on the car! >> >> >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >> >> >>> major milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >> >> >>> people in sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties >> >> >>> won't trust us to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car >> >> >>> was computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says >> >> >>> he will never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >> >> >>> convincing them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >> > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hello, >> >> >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >> >> >>> already going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and >> >> >>> there is nothing wrong >> >> >> with >> >> >>> backing both cars. >> >> >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> >> >>> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or >> >> >>> using a screen reader to >> >> >> read >> >> >>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >> >> >>> very important. The difference is the Google car is going >> >> >>> mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the >> >> >>> same if Jaws went mainstreem and companies like Google started making units that used Jaws and no screen. >> >> >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >> >> >>> most common tasks. >> >> >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >> >> >>> very little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map >> >> >>> a long driveway or country road, one would need to manually >> >> >>> drive it till the road could be completely entered into the >> >> >>> database. >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> From: Sophie Trist >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >> >> >>> invent a self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard >> >> >>> to convince them to back the google car unless we can prove >> >> >>> theirs is superior. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>> > >> >>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hello, >> >> >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be >> >> >>> taken into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs >> >> >>> to be worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, >> >> >>> it will happen very soon. >> >> >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >> >> >>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >> >> >>> Google would take the challenge. >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> From: Justin Young >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >>> >> >> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market >> >> >>> for individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >> >> >>> interesting project. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >> >> >>> roads after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved >> >> >>> on Monday the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on >> >> >>> highways, in Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous >> >> >>> Las Vegas Strip, the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >> >> >>> for the state's roads, the first such law in the United >> >> >>> States. That law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar >> >> >>> sensors, lasers, and a database of information collected from >> >> >>> manually driven cars to help navigate, according to the >> >> >>> company. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> >> >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >> >> >>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >> >> >>> and driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >> >> >>> according to the company. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >> >> >>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has >> >> >>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >> >> >>> members of the public, the DMV said. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >> >> >>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> >> >>> Through >> >> >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> >> >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >> >> >>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California >> >> >>> state Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced >> >> >>> that state's autonomous car legislation. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses >> >> >>> in Nevada, the DMV said. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> info for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40g >> >> >>> mai >> >> >>> l.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> info for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkei >> >> >>> thb >> >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> info for nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeare >> >> >>> ade >> >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> info for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkei >> >> >>> thb >> >> >>> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeare >> >> >>> ade >> >> >>> r%40gmail.com >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >>> info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%4 >> >> >>> 0comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >> info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.will >> >> >> iams2%40gmail >> >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> >> info for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazyd >> >> >> ude%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusba >> >> > um%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40com >> >> cast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >> > 40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcas >> t.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 20:22:55 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:22:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi all, "The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours." Right on, Patrick! Think of it from this perspective; I live an hour away from home at school. I have friends who are great and have cars, and most of the time their schedules permitting they will take me to the Wal-Mart down the street or to Michaels to pick up materials for a project because taking an hour and a half to get to Wal-Mart, which takes 15 minutes by car, is ridiculous, (and that's only one way, not counting the trip back to school). Like Aleeha, I would have to see that the safety features of the computer system were fully functional and that it could break if the car were cut off and do things like that before I would consider putting myself in that car. I would also not forget that any system has the potential to malfunction or break down, but after a while of testing I would probably get one of these cars as long as the results are good. I like what Patrick said about sighted people who drive not really being self-serving; I feel the same way and wouldn't consider a blind person self-serving if they were to drive a Google car too. Like him, Suzan, and others, I would love to be able to do things in the future like just take ten minutes to get to the grocery store, shop, and put all I have bought into my trunk and drive home. More importantly for me, I would love to be able to drive myself to doctors appointments, volunteer sites, meetings, and other things around town which, because back home there isn't a bus stop around me, I have to rely on my parents and younger sister for. Most of all, as someone who is entering a profession where many people have to drive from site to site, I would love to have that option available to me, too, instead of being forced to work in one standard location all the time. For me, a car like this would be valuable for my career, as it would be for others as well. Using a bus system would eat up more of my day than actually working with clients if I chose to use this method, and if all my clients were accessible by bus to begin with, so a car would be fantastic. Also, a point I realized while thinking about paratransit systems. While those are significantly better than the average bus systems, they can still not be reliable enough for a person who has set appointment times to make as in some cases five minutes behind can mean a world of difference. Also, if something changes you can't very easily change your paratransit plan the day of, which is kind of awkward to work around. If we had the google cars though, and an appointment got pushed up or moved later in the day, we could jump in the car when we needed to go early, run an errand or get lunch while waiting for the time to leave, etc. There is just greater flexibility in the idea, and it allows for a wider range of choices. Of course, this car will have to be tried and tested first, and I agree with Aleeha that some sighted people might have a fit about blind people even being on the road regardless of whether they or the car is driving, so we'll just have to see how this pans out. On 4/14/13, Aleeha Dudley wrote: > Hello all, > I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this > thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car > and about the attitude of some list members. > First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google > car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would > activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe > that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to > knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and > sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting > us to drive on the roads. > The second part of my message concerns the language some people > are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes > that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off > list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and > feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community > of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits > and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that > some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down > or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is > PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not > so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers > looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background > check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these > offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable > candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether > if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, > I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please > consider other list members who may not condone such language or who > may be younger than most of us. > Thank you, > Aleeha > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like >> you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one >> if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to >> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >> the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us >> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and >> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, >> and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it >> when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to >> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians >> who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is >> on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted >> drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >> to >> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >> hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >> you >> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want >> to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but >> we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>> think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 20:43:22 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:43:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <009c01ce3887$8a964f50$9fc2edf0$@gmail.com> I remember not knowing when I was going to get home in the evenings. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 4:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi all, "The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours." Right on, Patrick! Think of it from this perspective; I live an hour away from home at school. I have friends who are great and have cars, and most of the time their schedules permitting they will take me to the Wal-Mart down the street or to Michaels to pick up materials for a project because taking an hour and a half to get to Wal-Mart, which takes 15 minutes by car, is ridiculous, (and that's only one way, not counting the trip back to school). Like Aleeha, I would have to see that the safety features of the computer system were fully functional and that it could break if the car were cut off and do things like that before I would consider putting myself in that car. I would also not forget that any system has the potential to malfunction or break down, but after a while of testing I would probably get one of these cars as long as the results are good. I like what Patrick said about sighted people who drive not really being self-serving; I feel the same way and wouldn't consider a blind person self-serving if they were to drive a Google car too. Like him, Suzan, and others, I would love to be able to do things in the future like just take ten minutes to get to the grocery store, shop, and put all I have bought into my trunk and drive home. More importantly for me, I would love to be able to drive myself to doctors appointments, volunteer sites, meetings, and other things around town which, because back home there isn't a bus stop around me, I have to rely on my parents and younger sister for. Most of all, as someone who is entering a profession where many people have to drive from site to site, I would love to have that option available to me, too, instead of being forced to work in one standard location all the time. For me, a car like this would be valuable for my career, as it would be for others as well. Using a bus system would eat up more of my day than actually working with clients if I chose to use this method, and if all my clients were accessible by bus to begin with, so a car would be fantastic. Also, a point I realized while thinking about paratransit systems. While those are significantly better than the average bus systems, they can still not be reliable enough for a person who has set appointment times to make as in some cases five minutes behind can mean a world of difference. Also, if something changes you can't very easily change your paratransit plan the day of, which is kind of awkward to work around. If we had the google cars though, and an appointment got pushed up or moved later in the day, we could jump in the car when we needed to go early, run an errand or get lunch while waiting for the time to leave, etc. There is just greater flexibility in the idea, and it allows for a wider range of choices. Of course, this car will have to be tried and tested first, and I agree with Aleeha that some sighted people might have a fit about blind people even being on the road regardless of whether they or the car is driving, so we'll just have to see how this pans out. On 4/14/13, Aleeha Dudley wrote: > Hello all, > I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this > thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car > and about the attitude of some list members. > First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google > car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would > activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe > that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to > knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and > sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting > us to drive on the roads. > The second part of my message concerns the language some people > are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes > that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off > list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and > feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community > of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits > and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that > some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down > or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is > PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not > so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers > looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background > check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these > offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable > candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether > if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, > I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please > consider other list members who may not condone such language or who > may be younger than most of us. > Thank you, > Aleeha > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like >> you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one >> if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to >> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >> the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us >> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and >> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, >> and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it >> when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to >> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians >> who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is >> on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted >> drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >> to >> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >> hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >> you >> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want >> to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but >> we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>> think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Apr 14 22:08:35 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:08:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <001301ce395c$9cae0db0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Ashley and everyone, That's exactly why the technology is being developed by the NFB and Virginia Tech for the reasons you give. There's also the matter of being able to take control of one's life and time. Those who wish for such a vehicle to be developed and the associated issues resolved wish to go where we want to go on our own schedule not that of public transit and other transportation services. It's as simple of that. We don't need our own people holding us back and preventing this dream from being realized! Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ---- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi all, I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead > of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the > driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in > chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where > there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d > much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before > in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of > Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about > driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay > for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office > quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater > chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can > take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you > think? LOL! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Apr 14 22:10:51 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:10:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <5167622c.27b9ec0a.25ab.19ff@mx.google.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130411202511.02097b78@comcast.net><005701ce3673$8bde6570$a39b3050$@gmail.com><-1078405146838734452@unknownmsgid><005501ce36be$181a0e50$484e2af0$@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130412100052.01e1e020@comcast.net><16961DA6-F060-4C93-AE5A-BBEE7589583A@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130413122910.01f4b9d8@comcast.net><7.0.1.0.2.20130414074430.01e3e5b8@comcast.net> <6E4DA2BD-CA69-4D0C-B777-C6E11E5A4054@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001d01ce395c$ed97dc10$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Suzanne and everyone, Others of us are all ready exploring ways to create the needed income to buy this vehicle whenever it goes on the market. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Here here, Suzanne! Gainful employment is something you have to want in order to have and there's no reason any blind person who wants it and works for it can't have it. I, myself, am pursuing robotics engineering while learning to program on the side. You can bet your life ill be in line to buy a car by the time one is available for me. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:48 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. > > One yes I plan to be one of those gainfully employed. I have been in the > past and starting salary for software engineers is close to $90,000 When I > was a junior programmer 12 years ago I was making $50,000. I also live > with > my fiance and so we have two incomes. > > I plan my life for what I can do and what success I can have. > > > On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > >> Good morning, Suzanne, >> >> The blink having access to such financial resources to be able to acquire >> one of these so-called cars, you must admit are not many since, blind >> folk >> who are in fact so gainfully employed, are by far the exception, not the >> rule. Maybe, for you to talk in tones of such enthusiasm, you must be one >> of these blind folks?At 01:30 PM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >>> I was reply to this >>> >>> "So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough dough >>> for one of these things?" >>> >>> So yes that to me implies the "your blind ass" can't afford it not that >>> everyone can't afford it. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Suzanne, >>>> >>>> I didn't even bring up blindness and how it relates to income >>> disparity.At >>>> 10:00 AM 4/13/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> >>>>> Exactly I am busting my "blind ass" in school so I can make a good >>> income >>>>> and comparable to sighted people. It was insulting to imply that we as >>>>> blind individuals cannot make a good living. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Mauricio Almeida < >>>>> mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> AMEN. >>>>>> It is purely and solely hat i believe regarding such an under >>> elaborated >>>>>> rational. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mauricio >>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 5:41 PM, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This email implies that someone's "blind ass" can't earn a >>> substantial >>>>>> living comparable to that of a sighted person. I find this statement >>>>>> offensive, blatantly false, and inappropriate for a mailing list >>>>> composed >>>>>> of blind students who are all, I hope, in school pursuing gainful >>>>> careers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Carly Mihalakis < >>> carlymih at comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good morning, Suzanne, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So you're saying you see your blind ass eventually having enough >>>>> dough >>>>>> for one of these things? At least we can take the bus, no matter how >>>>> long >>>>>> it often takes to get somewhere. Car 07:08 AM 4/11/2013, justin >>> williams >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> No not even good. Cabs are two expensive, and you have to >>> measure >>>>> bus >>>>>> v. >>>>>>>>> paratransit, or move everywhere when you change jobs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>> On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>>> Germano >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:54 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would drive one of these in a heartbeat. I hate the bus! I am >>> 49 >>>>> and >>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been ridng the bus since I was 12. I am frustrated it takes me 2 >>> or >>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> hours to get somewhere that takes 20-30 minutes by car. And this >>> has >>>>>> been >>>>>>>>> both in San Diego and Phoenix with buses running every 20-30 >>>>> minutes I >>>>>>>>> almost always end up with 2 hour trips each way. It is >>> frustrating >>>>> to >>>>>> only >>>>>>>>> be able to apply to a company who is on a bus route. I want the >>>>>> freedom to >>>>>>>>> work where I would enjoy myself the most and with the position >>> that >>>>>> matches >>>>>>>>> my skill best. I also live in Phoenix (for now) and by the time I >>>>> get >>>>>>>>> anywhere I am dripping in sweat. that is not good when going to >>>>> work. >>>>>> Give >>>>>>>>> me a Google car!! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:09 AM, christopher nusbaum < >>>>>>>>> dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google >>> car, >>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >>> all >>>>>>>>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than >>>>> prototypes. >>>>>>>>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken >>> over >>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>> reposted here mentioned. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people >>> don't >>>>>>>>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, >>>>> such as >>>>>>>>>> Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >>>>> town in >>>>>>>>>> Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >>>>>>>>>> paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >>> these >>>>>>>>>> options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >>> reliability. >>>>> For >>>>>>>>>> this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car >>>>> might >>>>>>>>>> give me in this area. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring < >>>>> kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>>>>>>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>>>>>>>>>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was >>> that >>>>>>>>>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's >>> realisticly >>>>>>>>>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be >>>>> able >>>>>>>>>>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable >>> to >>>>>>>>>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" were >>>>>>>>>>> probably aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to >>> go >>>>>>>>>>> before it was viable to the general public. >>>>>>>>>>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't >>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and >>>>> landing. >>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>>>>>>>>>> attention in the event something goes wrong. >>>>>>>>>>> Carley, >>>>>>>>>>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable >>> about >>>>>>>>>>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than >>> public >>>>>>>>>>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city >>> comes to >>>>>>>>>>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would >>> totally >>>>>>>>>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >>> enough >>>>>>>>>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >>>>>>>>>>> trains any time soon. >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org< >>> nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org >] >>>>> On Behalf Of Carly >>>>>>>>>>>> Mihalakis >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>> National >>>>>>>>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted >>> folk >>>>>>>>>>>> seem to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd >>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> fellow man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >>> having >>>>>>>>>>>> that crap to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about >>>>>>>>>>>> chances of ever affording such a car. And, I don't care about >>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> principles personal cars supposedly afford. Where can they >>> take >>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> that a bus, train, or friend/driver cannot? >>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, >>> oughta >>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>>>>>>>>>>> So no, on the car! >>>>>>>>>>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a >>>>> major >>>>>>>>>>>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind >>> people >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't >>> trust >>>>> us >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he >>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be >>> convincing >>>>>>>>>>>>> them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is >>>>> already >>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >>>>> nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> backing both cars. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their >>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a screen >>>>>>>>>>>>> reader to >>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>>> a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is >>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>>>> important. The difference is the Google car is going >>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstreem >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> companies like Google started making units that used Jaws >>> and no >>>>>>>>>> screen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for >>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>> common tasks. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be >>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>> driveway >>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> country >>>>>>>>>>>>> road, one would need to manually drive it till the road >>> could be >>>>>>>>>>>>> completely entered into the database. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sophie Trist >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB >>> invent >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to >>> convince >>>>>>>>>>>>> them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >>>>>>>>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be >>> taken >>>>>>>>>>>>> into account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to >>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> worked out, but if the government officials are pushed, it >>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> happen very soon. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps >>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> could even ask that a car come to the convention, I think >>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>> would take the challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Justin Young >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market >>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>> project. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada >>> roads >>>>>>>>>>>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on >>>>> Monday >>>>>>>>>>>>> the nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on >>> highways, >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas >>> Strip, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars >>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the state's roads, the first such law in the United States. >>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>> law went into effect on March 1, 2012. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar >>> sensors, >>>>>>>>>>>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually >>>>>>>>>>>>> driven cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>>>>>>>>>>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >>>>>>>>>>>>> professor and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate >>> Bridge >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, >>> according to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the company. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >>>>>>>>>>>>> director Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also >>> has >>>>>>>>>>>>> plans to eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> members of the public, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered >>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> other states, including Google's home state of California. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human >>> error. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Through >>>>>>>>>>>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an >>> autonomous >>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more >>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly and operating the vehicle more safely," California >>> state >>>>>>>>>>>>> Senator Alex Padilla said in March when he introduced that >>>>> state's >>>>>>>>>>>>> autonomous car legislation. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car >>> licenses in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> jty727%40gmai>> nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> brandonkeithb>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sweetpeareade>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> brandonkeithb>> nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sweetpeareade>> nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> carlymih%40comcast>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast >>>> >>>>>>>>>> .net >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> justin.williams2%4 >>>>>>>>>> 0gmail >>>>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> kirt.crazydude%40g>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.**crazydude%40g >>>> >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> dotkid.nusbaum%40g>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.**nusbaum%40g >>>> >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >>>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.**williams2%40gmail >>>> >>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/** >>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> sgermano%40asu.edu>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%**40asu.edu >>>> >>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%**40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**** >>> sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> 40asu.edu >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Apr 14 22:12:52 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:12:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414093911.01e26968@comcast.net> Message-ID: <002501ce395d$35742930$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon again everyone, The opportunities are out there. It's a matter of our being willing to take advantage of them to buy this car or to fulfill whatever other big dreams we have for our lives. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carly Mihalakis" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Well then, Sophie and Robert william, when you guys find enough money to buy one of these, you can gimme a ride or, because of all this trashtalking you wouldn't even do that? Have a beautiful Sunday, guys! Car, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >not do it? > >Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self > > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead > > of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the > > driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in > > chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where > > there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd > > much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before > > in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of > > Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about > > driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay > > for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office > > quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater > > chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can > > take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you > > think? LOL! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Apr 14 22:23:22 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:23:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <003a01ce3947$4ecde260$ec69a720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003301ce395e$ad099b00$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon one more time everyone, Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this technology along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the track at Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all ready been demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals have driven the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to unite and work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone else to insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is controllable by a blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is protected. We don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom and empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble initiative. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Amen, Patrick! Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 14 22:29:17 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:29:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Aleeha, Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car to drive in public. So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking public transit and this car will be more than the average car. We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a lot for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience perhaps. It’s a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs but you need a job to cultivate experience. Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think are visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not only the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For real, these are barriers. I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that people who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not gaurantee you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances does not gaurantee you a job. I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if I do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships in the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists for the public. Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't employed. It could be you one day. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Aleeha Dudley Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hello all, I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car and about the attitude of some list members. First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting us to drive on the roads. The second part of my message concerns the language some people are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please consider other list members who may not condone such language or who may be younger than most of us. Thank you, Aleeha On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like > you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one > if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to > hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override > the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self > serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us > when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and > you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, > and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it > when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to > some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn > without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians > who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is > on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted > drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to > see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected > hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you > never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want > to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but > we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >> think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 14 22:34:05 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:34:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <008a01ce3882$def19000$9cd4b000$@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <008a01ce3882$def19000$9cd4b000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, I'll not agree with you all here. I see the barriers in lack of transportation. I doubt anyone disputes that. I just wish your energy would go into advocating for better transit that is accessible. Advocate for more bus shelters so you don't have to stand outside a stop waiting a long time. Advocate for maintaining sidewalks so all pedestrians have a safe place to walk without the tripping hazzards. Finally, advocate for accessible websites to plan your trip and for automated call announcements if you don't already have them. We could come further in the transit battle if more would advocate on a local level. This would be eco friendly and available to all. But a fancy google car will only be available to a few who can buy it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 4:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Because one of our major barriers is transportation rright? It's one of my big deals. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 22:41:09 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 18:41:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <008a01ce3882$def19000$9cd4b000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b201ce3897$fece8e90$fc6babb0$@gmail.com> Okay, I can see that also, especially before the car is ready, or even in cities where transportation is not such a huge problem. I'll fight for both then. I'll fight for choice. Everyone should have a choice. I thought the google car was eco friendly. Either way, we should have a choice whether or not to drive or use public transit just like the sighted. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, I'll not agree with you all here. I see the barriers in lack of transportation. I doubt anyone disputes that. I just wish your energy would go into advocating for better transit that is accessible. Advocate for more bus shelters so you don't have to stand outside a stop waiting a long time. Advocate for maintaining sidewalks so all pedestrians have a safe place to walk without the tripping hazzards. Finally, advocate for accessible websites to plan your trip and for automated call announcements if you don't already have them. We could come further in the transit battle if more would advocate on a local level. This would be eco friendly and available to all. But a fancy google car will only be available to a few who can buy it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 4:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Because one of our major barriers is transportation rright? It's one of my big deals. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 14 22:41:01 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:41:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> References: <516aadeb.2b78ec0a.2f4b.ffff9111@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> Message-ID: Carley, A few things; please don't use fowel language. Second, while I agree the google car is a dream and too expensive and self serving, I beg to differ about transit. Not all transit systems meet our needs. Transit options vary widely from area to area. Lets not even mention weekends wich presents more limited transit options. It may meet your needs but not everyone's. So be careful about saying one system works for all. I cannot think of one blind person who only relies on public transit. But, instead we use a variety of methods to travel. These including walking to a destination, getting a ride from a friend, taking a cab, maybe carpooling if you go to work, or hiring a driver. I'm glad you are content with the transit where you are, but no one is in my area even though we live in a fast paced metro area with many transit options. Still nothing replaces a car. Since, even with several bus systems, they often do not run at night or weekends. Chill out and please don't be so angry. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Carly Mihalakis Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 9:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Good moring, Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just fine. Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Evening, Josh, > >Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy >trepidation... >As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even >dying >in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers >and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the >unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us >grind on, unabated. >And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >Have a good day! >Carly > >Hello, >Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come >to events and >shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings >every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >constantly face. >Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in >my opinion. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >don't have all >the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if >he dares to >usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >christopher nusbaum >wrote: > >Kirt, > >I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >all >Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >reposted here mentioned. > >Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >give me in this area. > >Just my thoughts, > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >to drive. Where the google car is now is probably >comparable to where >the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >were probably >aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >before it was >viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very >close attention >in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >realistic and safe, >at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >enough away that >I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >trains any time >soon. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >On Behalf Of Carly >Mihalakis >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched >sighted folk seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >having that crap >to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >principles personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a >bus, train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >wrong >with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >control or >a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >screen reader >to >read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >important. The difference is the Google car is going >mainstream and >will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >mainstreem >>> and >companies like Google started making units that used >Jaws and no >screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary >for most >common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >little >or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >jty727%40gmai/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >justin.williams2%40gmail_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.comabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano% >40asu.edurmano%40asu.edu > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kingettr at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 23:38:14 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:38:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] video of a blind man driving the google car In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <516B3DE6.7070504@gmail.com> look at this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 23:54:21 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:54:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] video of a blind man driving the google car In-Reply-To: <516B3DE6.7070504@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <516B3DE6.7070504@gmail.com> Message-ID: That video is incredible, and now I want one of these AND believe I can have one reasonably soon even more than I did at the start of this thread. I have half a mind to start saving NOW. On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > look at this video. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=peDy2st2XpQ > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Mon Apr 15 00:26:05 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:26:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I don't think anyone made generalizations on why people are unemployed. But Carly's post made it sound like she doesn't think our "blind asses" will be able to afford a car. She seems to harbor anger toward the "sighties" and those of us who are blind and want to freedom to pursue whatever we want in life. All of my responses were to that we should not assume we won't having a gainful income because we are blind. I fully understand the difficultly my fiance who is sighted has been laid off twice in two years. But the fact that he could drive meant he was able to accept employment that was an hour from our home in a car and a company not on a bus route. If he was limited to the bus we probably would have been living on the streets now. He did the hour commute for a couple of months until we moved closer and to a much better location for me to have bus access. But we should not look at buying a car any different than a sighted person does. They have to save up they have to have an income that is sufficient to make the car payments. But we stand a much better chance of employment if we have the freedom to interview at any company and not be limited to those on a bus. Our lack of reliable transportation is one reason someone sighted might get the job over us with all other experience being equal. Because of having to rely on the bus I cannot do the things that help get employment while going to school. I am on the bus 22 hours a week which means I cannot do undergrad research. I just don't have the time. On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Aleeha, > Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car to > drive in public. > So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant > future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking public > transit and this car will be more than the average car. > > We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a lot > for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. > Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get > interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other > competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience > perhaps. It’s a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs but > you need a job to cultivate experience. > Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with > software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think > are visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not > only the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation > of photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as > microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention > social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For > real, these are barriers. > I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that people > who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not gaurantee > you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances > does not gaurantee you a job. > > I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience > before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if I > do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships in > the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. > > I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists > for the public. > Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't > employed. It could be you one day. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Aleeha Dudley > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello all, > I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this > thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car > and about the attitude of some list members. > First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google > car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would > activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe > that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to > knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and > sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting > us to drive on the roads. > The second part of my message concerns the language some people > are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes > that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off > list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and > feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community > of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits > and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that > some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down > or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is > PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not > so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers > looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background > check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these > offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable > candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether > if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, > I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please > consider other list members who may not condone such language or who > may be younger than most of us. > Thank you, > Aleeha > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like >> you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one >> if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to >> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >> the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us >> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and >> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, >> and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it >> when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to >> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians >> who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is >> on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted >> drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to >> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >> hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you >> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want >> to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but >> we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>> think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com >> >> > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 15 00:27:20 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:27:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good evening Ashley and everyone, But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Aleeha, Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car to drive in public. So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking public transit and this car will be more than the average car. We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a lot for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience perhaps. It’s a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs but you need a job to cultivate experience. Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think are visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not only the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For real, these are barriers. I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that people who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not gaurantee you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances does not gaurantee you a job. I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if I do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships in the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists for the public. Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't employed. It could be you one day. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Aleeha Dudley Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hello all, I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car and about the attitude of some list members. First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting us to drive on the roads. The second part of my message concerns the language some people are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please consider other list members who may not condone such language or who may be younger than most of us. Thank you, Aleeha On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like > you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one > if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to > hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override > the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self > serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us > when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and > you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, > and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it > when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to > some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn > without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians > who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is > on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted > drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to > see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected > hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you > never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want > to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but > we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >> think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 15 00:28:48 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:28:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC><008a01ce3882$def19000$9cd4b000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01ce3970$32c58950$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Ashley and everyone, Blind drivable vehicles can also be included in that category. Figure it out! Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, I'll not agree with you all here. I see the barriers in lack of transportation. I doubt anyone disputes that. I just wish your energy would go into advocating for better transit that is accessible. Advocate for more bus shelters so you don't have to stand outside a stop waiting a long time. Advocate for maintaining sidewalks so all pedestrians have a safe place to walk without the tripping hazzards. Finally, advocate for accessible websites to plan your trip and for automated call announcements if you don't already have them. We could come further in the transit battle if more would advocate on a local level. This would be eco friendly and available to all. But a fancy google car will only be available to a few who can buy it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 4:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Because one of our major barriers is transportation rright? It's one of my big deals. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 15 00:30:10 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:30:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ~Re: Google car takes to the streets References: <516aadeb.2b78ec0a.2f4b.ffff9111@mx.google.com><7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001501ce3970$63d09ee0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello again Ashley and everyone, Hence the need for blind-drivable vehicles. Figure it out! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Carley, A few things; please don't use fowel language. Second, while I agree the google car is a dream and too expensive and self serving, I beg to differ about transit. Not all transit systems meet our needs. Transit options vary widely from area to area. Lets not even mention weekends wich presents more limited transit options. It may meet your needs but not everyone's. So be careful about saying one system works for all. I cannot think of one blind person who only relies on public transit. But, instead we use a variety of methods to travel. These including walking to a destination, getting a ride from a friend, taking a cab, maybe carpooling if you go to work, or hiring a driver. I'm glad you are content with the transit where you are, but no one is in my area even though we live in a fast paced metro area with many transit options. Still nothing replaces a car. Since, even with several bus systems, they often do not run at night or weekends. Chill out and please don't be so angry. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Carly Mihalakis Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 9:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Good moring, Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just fine. Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >,National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Evening, Josh, > >Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy >trepidation... >As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even >dying >in our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers >and sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the >unfeeling wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us >grind on, unabated. >And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >Have a good day! >Carly > >Hello, >Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come >to events and >shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, although I've never >been in one while it has been driven. I'd think it will be exactly like >being a passenger of a sighted driver, but without the crazy breakings >every few minutes and the heart attacks the sighted drivers >constantly face. >Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my mom >as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in >my opinion. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, > >You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement without >fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >don't have all >the information. And, I think it's right when you say the thing doesn't >murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving blink if >he dares to >usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? 4/12/2013, >christopher nusbaum >wrote: > >Kirt, > >I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that >all >Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which someone >reposted here mentioned. > >Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such as >Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural town in >Maryland, where our only options For public transportation are >paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of these >options are preferable Because of the cost if not the reliability. For >this reason, I would love the independence that the Google car might >give me in this area. > >Just my thoughts, > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >Patrick, > If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >to drive. Where the google car is now is probably >comparable to where >the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >were probably >aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go >before it was >viable to the general public. > And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very >close attention >in the event something goes wrong. > Carley, > I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were >realistic and safe, >at least most of the time. That being said, it's far >enough away that >I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >trains any time >soon. > Best, >Kirt > >On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] >On Behalf Of Carly >Mihalakis >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hi, List, > >On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched >sighted folk seem >to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not >having that crap >to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >affording such a car. And, I don't care about the >principles personal >cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a >bus, train, or >friend/driver cannot? > Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be >a communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >So no, on the car! >Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us >to drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was >computer-controlled. Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will >never trust a self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing >them that it's safe for us and for others on the road. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >going >mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is nothing >wrong >with >backing both cars. >The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >control or >a >computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >screen reader >to >read >a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a screen reader is very >important. The difference is the Google car is going >mainstream and >will >have mainstreem support. It would be the same if Jaws went >mainstreem >>> and >companies like Google started making units that used >Jaws and no >screen. >Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary >for most >common >tasks. >If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >little >or >no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long driveway or >country >road, one would need to manually drive it till the road could be >completely >entered into the database. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Sophie Trist >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince >them to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is >superior. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >Hello, >Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken >into account >I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, but >if the >government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they >could even >ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >the >challenge. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- >From: Justin Young >Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very >interesting >project. > >On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >after >the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >nation's >first autonomous vehicle license. > >The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, >in >Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, >the >Nevada DMV said in a statement. > >The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for >the >state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law >went >into effect on March 1, 2012. > >Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >lasers, >and a database of information collected from manually driven >cars to >help navigate, according to the company. > >The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford >professor and >Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. > >Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge >and >driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to >the >company. > >Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV >director >Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of >the >public, the DMV said. > >Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in >other >states, including Google's home state of California. > >"The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >Through >the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >vehicle >is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly and >operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator >Alex >Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous >car >legislation. > >Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >Nevada, >the DMV said. > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >jty727%40gmai/jty727%40gmai >l.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithb/brandonkeithb >iggs%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >sweetpeareade/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >justin.williams2%40gmail_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >carlymih%40comcast.netfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.comabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > >______________________________**_________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.orgnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano% >40asu.edurmano%40asu.edu > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From sgermano at asu.edu Mon Apr 15 00:33:00 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:33:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <008a01ce3882$def19000$9cd4b000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: My buses to school are about as convenient as is gets. The first one runs every 30 min. The second bus runs every 20 min. I walk 1/3 mile to the first bus, take it two miles, cross the street wait at most 20 mins, then I am on the second bus for an hour and it drops me at my campus. I leave my house at 6:45 and I get to school at 8:30. But I could drive there in 25 min. How much more convenient can the bus be made? The only way it could be more convenient is if once I got on it made no stops til my campus. My return trip is longer because by the time I get to the bus stop after class I end up with a 20 minute wait before I even get on the bus and it just misses the second bus so I have a 30 minute wait. Plus I just don't like walking 1/3 mike in the 115 degree heat More convenient buses doesn't help how many groceries you can carry. On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Justin, > I'll not agree with you all here. I see the barriers in lack of > transportation. > I doubt anyone disputes that. I just wish your energy would go into > advocating for better transit that is accessible. Advocate for more bus > shelters so you don't have to stand outside a stop waiting a long time. > Advocate for maintaining sidewalks so all pedestrians have a safe place to > walk without the tripping hazzards. Finally, advocate for accessible > websites to plan your trip and for automated call announcements if you > don't already have them. > > We could come further in the transit battle if more would advocate on a > local level. This would be eco friendly and available to all. But a fancy > google car will only be available to a few who can buy it. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: justin williams > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 4:09 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Because one of our major barriers is transportation rright? It's one of my > big deals. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org] > On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. > When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, > don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the > NFB > car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the > thing! > If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the > public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not > saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with > that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with > some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want > to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to > you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many > people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind > people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the > potential > of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less > assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind > people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide > not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it > not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as > blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way > or another. > Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people > when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of > waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If > we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have > the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not > equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it > ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at > least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our > brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, > but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a > bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we > don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to > kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same > freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the > realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. > Patrick > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >> like you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >> one if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >> override the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is >> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of >> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed >> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to >> walk, rode rage, and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >> it when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly >> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >> pedestrians who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >> is on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> distracted drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon >> unexpected hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just >> don't want to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >> but we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> crazy4clarinet104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> bookwormahb%40eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> ptrck.molloy%40gma >> il.com >> >> > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 15 00:37:16 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:37:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] video of a blind man driving the google car References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <516B3DE6.7070504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003d01ce3971$61a58c10$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good evening again everyone, Just a correction to this message. The car shown in the video is a Ford Escape that was fitted with the system that allows it to be driven by a blind person. It is not the Google Car. A described version can be found in the NFB's Audio-Video Center and on: http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org We showed it to some friends of ours last Wednesday evening. I'm sure they've told others by now of our desire to own one of these vehicles and together will help us raise the needed funds. We're gonna figure it out! Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert William Kingett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:38 PM Subject: [nabs-l] video of a blind man driving the google car look at this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 00:50:08 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:50:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car Message-ID: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> Ashley, Let me give you an example of what Suzanne, Sophie and I (among others) have been saying. You have previously mentioned on this list that you live in northern Virginia, near Fairfax and Falls Church. It is true that your part of Virginia is relatively close to Washington, DC, and that many people who work in the DC metro area live in Fairfax County. However, your public transportation options are limited. I know this because I live about an hour away from Washington and consequently know some people who work there, both blind and sighted. You have the DC metro system. However, there are a few problems with this option. Firstly, you must get to your nearest metro station before you can even consider taking the metro. If it's not in walking distance, how are you going to do that? Will you not need a sighted driver, a public bus, or some other form of transportation provided by somebody else? You will. So, you run into the same problem of relying on somebody else to provide transportation. With the Google car, this would not be an issue- in fact, you wouldn't even need to take the metro. Secondly, the metro can be very crowded. This can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, you have people who can give you directions if needed. However, this can make the trip take longer and be more of a hassle. In short, if you're in any kind of hurry, don't take the metro--not in DC. There is also the option of the public bus. However, as with the metro, there are two problems with this: time and availability. As Suzanne has repeatedly reminded us, trips which would only take 10 or 15 minutes by car can take hours by public bus or subway. There is also the issue of availability. In urban cities, this is not much of a problem, as the bus system covers everything within the city limits in most cases. However, the limitation of the city limits can present problems if you live in a suburb of the city in question. Fairfax County is the biggest county in Virginia. So, if you live in a suburb of the city of Fairfax (and many people do,) you run the risk of living in an area which is not covered by the city's bus system. Why do you think there is so much traffic on the roads of most major cities? It's because "Ol' Sighty" doesn't want to deal with the hassle of public transportation. Is this self-serving? Maybe, but I don't think so. To me, "ol' Sighty" is weighing the pros and cons of his options to get from Point A to Point B, and deciding that a car would serve his needs best. Then there's paratransit. This option can present the same problems as the others, but on a larger scale. Whereas you are only dealing with the time it takes a public bus to get from its starting point to its destination, a paratransit van might show up hours late to the pickup location if it shows up at all. If this happens (and it often does to countless blind people,) the blind person relying on paratransit is left stranded until the van shows up. There is an NFB song about this which comes to mind. Entitled "The Paratransit Song," it goes like this: Para-transit, para-transit, para-transit, I did ride. You have hurt my heart and soul, but most of all you hurt my pride. Had a rendezvous with my sweetheart set the time for half past eight. By the time it finally got there, it was almost three hours late. Then the driver when arriving took away my long white cane. So I missed a step or two. Now I'm in a searing pain. So I boarded paratransit looking for an empty seat. Then another person's wheelchair caught and tripped me off my feet. Though my port of destination only was a mile away, Yet I had to cross the Interstate, and the driver took all day. My return trip I requested from a clerk who could not write. They forgot where they had left me, so I camped out overnight. Para-transit, para-transit, you have left me sad and blue. For the sweetheart whom I once loved is now seeing someone new. Oh this means of transportation has caused me such a fuss I'll give up on para-transit, and I'll ride the public bus. Yes, this is probably a hypothetical and extreme story. However, it raises some important points in the debate we have been having on this list. Should we have to be subjected to stories like the one related in the song? Must we settle for the unreliability of the subway or the public bus? We have had to settle for this for so long now, but now the technology exists which will allow us to have the same freedom in choosing our mode of transportation as our sighted peers. Yet, some of us are saying that you would rather take the bus. That is your opinion and your choice, and I respect that. If "Ol' Sighty" has the option to take the public bus instead of driving a car, we should have that choice as well, although I disagree with it. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't have the choice. We in the Federation believe that we can and ought to compete on terms of equality with our sighted peers. If technology allows us to compete on equal terms with "Ol' Sighty" in one more area of life, I say we should take advantage of that opportunity! Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Public transit serves our need just fine? Really? First of all I don't want to settle for just fine! Apparently you have not really tried to go to many places!!! Because I have lived in major cities San Diego, North Chicago suburb and Phoenix and they are plenty of places the the bus does not even go near not to mention I don't want to take 3 hours to get somewhere. I want a life that is not 5, 6,7 hours a day a a freaking bus!! I have zero desire to ever live in the actual down town of a city. I have had to take en entire day off from work to go to a 15 min doctor appointment because of how long it took on the bus and it was a 25 min car drive. I have ridden the bus for 47 years and I am tired of it! I still hate it. How about grocery shopping? I don't want to be limited to what I can carry walking to the bus stop and then walking form the stop to my house. I want to be free to go where I when when I want and for how long I want and ALONE if I want On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good moring, > Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta > airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving > project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just fine. > Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be > frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! > Carlycarlymih at comcast.net > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list < nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Evening, Josh, >> >> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... >> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >> within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in >> our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and >> sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling >> wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on, >> unabated. >> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >> Have a good day! >> Carly >> >> Hello, >> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to >> events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, >> although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think >> it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but >> without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks >> the sighted drivers constantly face. >> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >> mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >> opinion. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement >> without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >> don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say >> the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving >> blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? >> 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >> someone reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such >> as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >> town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation >> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >> these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >> reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the >> Google car might give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: >> >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >> were probably >> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> attention in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> trains any time soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org> s-l-bounces at nfbnet.org> >> >] >> On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a >> communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to >> drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. >> Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a >> self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's >> safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >> nothing wrong with backing both cars. >> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >> screen reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a >> screen reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is >> going mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the >> same if Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started >> making units that used Jaws and no screen. >> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> common tasks. >> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >> driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till >> the road could be completely entered into the database. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them >> to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >> account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >> but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >> even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> the challenge. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Justin Young >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> project. >> >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven >> cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >> and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly >> and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> Nevada, the DMV said. >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> jty727%40gmai> >> /jty727%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithb> >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> sweetpeareade> >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithb> >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> sweetpeareade> >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net> t.net> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> justin.williams2%40gmail> >> _nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%**40gmail> ams2%40gmail> >> .com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%**40gmail.com> razydude%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net> t.net> >> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/n >> >> abs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com> org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/****sgermano% >> 40asu.edu> >> rmano%40asu.edu >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly% >> 40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade >> >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net> t.org/carlymih%40comcast.net> >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu > .edu u.edu> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:01:43 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:01:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public transit and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over time, even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. Less time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we should never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of them now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > Good evening Ashley and everyone, > > But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these > vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > Aleeha, > Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car to > drive in public. > So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant > future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking public > transit and this car will be more than the average car. > > We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a lot > for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. > Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get > interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other > competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience > perhaps. It’s a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs but > you need a job to cultivate experience. > Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with > software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think are > visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not only > the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of > photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as > microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention > social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For > real, these are barriers. > I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that people > who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not gaurantee > you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances does > not gaurantee you a job. > > I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience > before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if I > do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships in > the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. > > I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists for > the public. > Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't > employed. It could be you one day. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aleeha Dudley > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hello all, > I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this > thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car > and about the attitude of some list members. > First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google > car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would > activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe > that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to > knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and > sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting > us to drive on the roads. > The second part of my message concerns the language some people > are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes > that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off > list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and > feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community > of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits > and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that > some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down > or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is > PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not > so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers > looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background > check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these > offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable > candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether > if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, > I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please > consider other list members who may not condone such language or who > may be younger than most of us. > Thank you, > Aleeha > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like >> you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one >> if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to >> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >> the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us >> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and >> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, >> and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it >> when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to >> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians >> who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is >> on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted >> drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to >> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >> hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you >> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want >> to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but >> we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>> think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:09:16 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:09:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] video of a blind man driving the google car In-Reply-To: <003d01ce3971$61a58c10$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <516B3DE6.7070504@gmail.com> <003d01ce3971$61a58c10$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: No, the original video posted by Robert is the Google car. My brother watched it and observed that the "driver" never touches the steering wheel and he confirmed, as the description mentions, that the car is well branded with the Google logo. The video of the NFB car is not the same video. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:37 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > Good evening again everyone, > > Just a correction to this message. The car shown in the video is a Ford > Escape that was fitted with the system that allows it to be driven by a > blind person. It is not the Google Car. A described version can be found in > the NFB's Audio-Video Center and on: http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > > We showed it to some friends of ours last Wednesday evening. I'm sure > they've told others by now of our desire to own one of these vehicles and > together will help us raise the needed funds. We're gonna figure it out! > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert William Kingett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:38 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] video of a blind man driving the google car > > > look at this video. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 02:12:09 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 22:12:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car In-Reply-To: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d701ce38b5$787ac1b0$69704510$@gmail.com> Testify -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:50 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Cc: setoth96 at gmail.com Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car Ashley, Let me give you an example of what Suzanne, Sophie and I (among others) have been saying. You have previously mentioned on this list that you live in northern Virginia, near Fairfax and Falls Church. It is true that your part of Virginia is relatively close to Washington, DC, and that many people who work in the DC metro area live in Fairfax County. However, your public transportation options are limited. I know this because I live about an hour away from Washington and consequently know some people who work there, both blind and sighted. You have the DC metro system. However, there are a few problems with this option. Firstly, you must get to your nearest metro station before you can even consider taking the metro. If it's not in walking distance, how are you going to do that? Will you not need a sighted driver, a public bus, or some other form of transportation provided by somebody else? You will. So, you run into the same problem of relying on somebody else to provide transportation. With the Google car, this would not be an issue- in fact, you wouldn't even need to take the metro. Secondly, the metro can be very crowded. This can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, you have people who can give you directions if needed. However, this can make the trip take longer and be more of a hassle. In short, if you're in any kind of hurry, don't take the metro--not in DC. There is also the option of the public bus. However, as with the metro, there are two problems with this: time and availability. As Suzanne has repeatedly reminded us, trips which would only take 10 or 15 minutes by car can take hours by public bus or subway. There is also the issue of availability. In urban cities, this is not much of a problem, as the bus system covers everything within the city limits in most cases. However, the limitation of the city limits can present problems if you live in a suburb of the city in question. Fairfax County is the biggest county in Virginia. So, if you live in a suburb of the city of Fairfax (and many people do,) you run the risk of living in an area which is not covered by the city's bus system. Why do you think there is so much traffic on the roads of most major cities? It's because "Ol' Sighty" doesn't want to deal with the hassle of public transportation. Is this self-serving? Maybe, but I don't think so. To me, "ol' Sighty" is weighing the pros and cons of his options to get from Point A to Point B, and deciding that a car would serve his needs best. Then there's paratransit. This option can present the same problems as the others, but on a larger scale. Whereas you are only dealing with the time it takes a public bus to get from its starting point to its destination, a paratransit van might show up hours late to the pickup location if it shows up at all. If this happens (and it often does to countless blind people,) the blind person relying on paratransit is left stranded until the van shows up. There is an NFB song about this which comes to mind. Entitled "The Paratransit Song," it goes like this: Para-transit, para-transit, para-transit, I did ride. You have hurt my heart and soul, but most of all you hurt my pride. Had a rendezvous with my sweetheart set the time for half past eight. By the time it finally got there, it was almost three hours late. Then the driver when arriving took away my long white cane. So I missed a step or two. Now I'm in a searing pain. So I boarded paratransit looking for an empty seat. Then another person's wheelchair caught and tripped me off my feet. Though my port of destination only was a mile away, Yet I had to cross the Interstate, and the driver took all day. My return trip I requested from a clerk who could not write. They forgot where they had left me, so I camped out overnight. Para-transit, para-transit, you have left me sad and blue. For the sweetheart whom I once loved is now seeing someone new. Oh this means of transportation has caused me such a fuss I'll give up on para-transit, and I'll ride the public bus. Yes, this is probably a hypothetical and extreme story. However, it raises some important points in the debate we have been having on this list. Should we have to be subjected to stories like the one related in the song? Must we settle for the unreliability of the subway or the public bus? We have had to settle for this for so long now, but now the technology exists which will allow us to have the same freedom in choosing our mode of transportation as our sighted peers. Yet, some of us are saying that you would rather take the bus. That is your opinion and your choice, and I respect that. If "Ol' Sighty" has the option to take the public bus instead of driving a car, we should have that choice as well, although I disagree with it. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't have the choice. We in the Federation believe that we can and ought to compete on terms of equality with our sighted peers. If technology allows us to compete on equal terms with "Ol' Sighty" in one more area of life, I say we should take advantage of that opportunity! Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Public transit serves our need just fine? Really? First of all I don't want to settle for just fine! Apparently you have not really tried to go to many places!!! Because I have lived in major cities San Diego, North Chicago suburb and Phoenix and they are plenty of places the the bus does not even go near not to mention I don't want to take 3 hours to get somewhere. I want a life that is not 5, 6,7 hours a day a a freaking bus!! I have zero desire to ever live in the actual down town of a city. I have had to take en entire day off from work to go to a 15 min doctor appointment because of how long it took on the bus and it was a 25 min car drive. I have ridden the bus for 47 years and I am tired of it! I still hate it. How about grocery shopping? I don't want to be limited to what I can carry walking to the bus stop and then walking form the stop to my house. I want to be free to go where I when when I want and for how long I want and ALONE if I want On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good moring, > Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta > airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving > project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just fine. > Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be > frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! > Carlycarlymih at comcast.net > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list < nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Evening, Josh, >> >> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... >> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >> within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in >> our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and >> sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling >> wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on, >> unabated. >> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >> Have a good day! >> Carly >> >> Hello, >> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to >> events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, >> although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think >> it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but >> without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks >> the sighted drivers constantly face. >> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >> mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >> opinion. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement >> without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >> don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say >> the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving >> blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? >> 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >> someone reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such >> as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >> town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation >> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >> these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >> reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the >> Google car might give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: >> >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >> were probably >> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> attention in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> trains any time soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org> s-l-bounces at nfbnet.org> >> >] >> On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a >> communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to >> drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. >> Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a >> self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's >> safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >> nothing wrong with backing both cars. >> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >> screen reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a >> screen reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is >> going mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the >> same if Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started >> making units that used Jaws and no screen. >> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> common tasks. >> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >> driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till >> the road could be completely entered into the database. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them >> to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >> account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >> but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >> even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> the challenge. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Justin Young >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> project. >> >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven >> cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >> and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly >> and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> Nevada, the DMV said. >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> jty727%40gmai> >> /jty727%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithb> >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> sweetpeareade> >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithb> >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> sweetpeareade> >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net> t.net> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> justin.williams2%40gmail> >> _nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%**40gmail> ams2%40gmail> >> .com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%**40gmail.com> razydude%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net> t.net> >> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/n >> >> abs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com> org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/****sgermano% >> 40asu.edu> >> rmano%40asu.edu >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly% >> 40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade >> >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net> t.org/carlymih%40comcast.net> >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu > .edu u.edu> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:42:14 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:42:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car In-Reply-To: <00d701ce38b5$787ac1b0$69704510$@gmail.com> References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> <00d701ce38b5$787ac1b0$69704510$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bravo!... that is all. On 4/13/13, justin williams wrote: > Testify > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:50 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Cc: setoth96 at gmail.com > Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car > > Ashley, > > Let me give you an example of what Suzanne, Sophie and I (among others) > have > been saying. You have previously mentioned on this list that you live in > northern Virginia, near Fairfax and Falls Church. It is true that your part > of Virginia is relatively close to Washington, DC, and that many people who > work in the DC metro area live in Fairfax County. However, your public > transportation options are limited. I know this because I live about an > hour > away from Washington and consequently know some people who work there, both > blind and sighted. > > You have the DC metro system. However, there are a few problems with this > option. Firstly, you must get to your nearest metro station before you can > even consider taking the metro. If it's not in walking distance, how are > you > going to do that? Will you not need a sighted driver, a public bus, or some > other form of transportation provided by somebody else? You will. So, you > run into the same problem of relying on somebody else to provide > transportation. With the Google car, this would not be an issue- in fact, > you wouldn't even need to take the metro. Secondly, the metro can be very > crowded. This can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, you have people > who can give you directions if needed. However, this can make the trip take > longer and be more of a hassle. In short, if you're in any kind of hurry, > don't take the metro--not in DC. > > There is also the option of the public bus. However, as with the metro, > there are two problems with this: time and availability. As Suzanne has > repeatedly reminded us, trips which would only take 10 or 15 minutes by car > can take hours by public bus or subway. There is also the issue of > availability. In urban cities, this is not much of a problem, as the bus > system covers everything within the city limits in most cases. However, the > limitation of the city limits can present problems if you live in a suburb > of the city in question. Fairfax County is the biggest county in Virginia. > So, if you live in a suburb of the city of Fairfax (and many people do,) > you > run the risk of living in an area which is not covered by the city's bus > system. Why do you think there is so much traffic on the roads of most > major > cities? It's because "Ol' Sighty" doesn't want to deal with the hassle of > public transportation. Is this self-serving? Maybe, but I don't think so. > To > me, "ol' Sighty" is weighing the pros and cons of his options to get from > Point A to Point B, and deciding that a car would serve his needs best. > > Then there's paratransit. This option can present the same problems as the > others, but on a larger scale. Whereas you are only dealing with the time > it > takes a public bus to get from its starting point to its destination, a > paratransit van might show up hours late to the pickup location if it shows > up at all. If this happens (and it often does to countless blind people,) > the blind person relying on paratransit is left stranded until the van > shows > up. There is an NFB song about this which comes to mind. Entitled "The > Paratransit Song," it goes like this: > > Para-transit, para-transit, para-transit, I did ride. > You have hurt my heart and soul, but most of all you hurt my pride. > Had a rendezvous with my sweetheart set the time for half past eight. > By the time it finally got there, it was almost three hours late. > Then the driver when arriving took away my long white cane. > So I missed a step or two. Now I'm in a searing pain. > So I boarded paratransit looking for an empty seat. > Then another person's wheelchair caught and tripped me off my feet. > Though my port of destination only was a mile away, Yet I had to cross the > Interstate, and the driver took all day. > My return trip I requested from a clerk who could not write. > They forgot where they had left me, so I camped out overnight. > Para-transit, para-transit, you have left me sad and blue. > For the sweetheart whom I once loved is now seeing someone new. > Oh this means of transportation has caused me such a fuss I'll give up on > para-transit, and I'll ride the public bus. > > Yes, this is probably a hypothetical and extreme story. However, it raises > some important points in the debate we have been having on this list. > Should > we have to be subjected to stories like the one related in the song? Must > we > settle for the unreliability of the subway or the public bus? We have had > to > settle for this for so long now, but now the technology exists which will > allow us to have the same freedom in choosing our mode of transportation as > our sighted peers. Yet, some of us are saying that you would rather take > the > bus. That is your opinion and your choice, and I respect that. If "Ol' > Sighty" has the option to take the public bus instead of driving a car, we > should have that choice as well, although I disagree with it. But this > doesn't mean we shouldn't have the choice. We in the Federation believe > that > we can and ought to compete on terms of equality with our sighted peers. If > technology allows us to compete on equal terms with "Ol' Sighty" in one > more > area of life, I say we should take advantage of that opportunity! > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Public transit serves our need just fine? Really? First of all I don't want > to settle for just fine! Apparently you have not really tried to go to many > places!!! Because I have lived in major cities San Diego, North Chicago > suburb and Phoenix and they are plenty of places the the bus does not even > go near not to mention I don't want to take 3 hours to get somewhere. I > want > a life that is not 5, 6,7 hours a day a a freaking bus!! I have zero desire > to ever live in the actual down town of a city. > > I have had to take en entire day off from work to go to a 15 min doctor > appointment because of how long it took on the bus and it was a 25 min car > drive. > > I have ridden the bus for 47 years and I am tired of it! I still hate it. > > How about grocery shopping? I don't want to be limited to what I can carry > walking to the bus stop and then walking form the stop to my house. > > I want to be free to go where I when when I want and for how long I want > and > ALONE if I want > > > On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > >> Good moring, >> Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta >> airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving >> project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs >> just > fine. >> Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be >> frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! >> Carlycarlymih at comcast.net >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list < nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Evening, Josh, >>> >>> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >>> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >>> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >>> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... >>> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >>> within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in >>> our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and >>> sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling >>> wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on, >>> unabated. >>> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >>> Have a good day! >>> Carly >>> >>> Hello, >>> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to >>> events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, >>> although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think >>> it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but >>> without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks >>> the sighted drivers constantly face. >>> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >>> mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >>> opinion. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >>> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >>> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >>> >>> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement >>> without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >>> don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say >>> the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving >>> blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? >>> 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >>> wrote: >>> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >>> someone reposted here mentioned. >>> >>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such >>> as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >>> town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation >>> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >>> these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >>> reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the >>> Google car might give me in this area. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >>> >>> Patrick, >>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >>> were probably >>> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >>> viable to the general public. >>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >>> attention in the event something goes wrong. >>> Carley, >>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >>> trains any time soon. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org>> s-l-bounces at nfbnet.org> >>> >] >>> On Behalf Of Carly >>> Mihalakis >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >>> Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hi, List, >>> >>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >>> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >>> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >>> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >>> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >>> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >>> friend/driver cannot? >>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a >>> communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >>> So no, on the car! >>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to >>> drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. >>> Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a >>> self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's >>> safe for us and for others on the road. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >>> going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >>> nothing wrong with backing both cars. >>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >>> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >>> screen reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a >>> screen reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is >>> going mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the >>> same if Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started >>> making units that used Jaws and no screen. >>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >>> common tasks. >>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >>> little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >>> driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till >>> the road could be completely entered into the database. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them >>> to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello, >>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >>> account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >>> but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >>> even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >>> the challenge. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Justin Young >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >>> project. >>> >>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >>> nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >>> >>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >>> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >>> >>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >>> into effect on March 1, 2012. >>> >>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven >>> cars to help navigate, according to the company. >>> >>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >>> and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >>> >>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >>> company. >>> >>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >>> public, the DMV said. >>> >>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >>> states, including Google's home state of California. >>> >>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >>> Through >>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly >>> and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >>> legislation. >>> >>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >>> Nevada, the DMV said. >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> jty727%40gmai>> >>> /jty727%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> brandonkeithb>> >>> /brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> sweetpeareade>> >>> /sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> brandonkeithb>> >>> /brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> sweetpeareade>> >>> /sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> >>> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net>> t.net> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> justin.williams2%40gmail>> >>> _nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%**40gmail>> ams2%40gmail> >>> .com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com>> >>> -l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%**40gmail.com>> razydude%40gmail.com> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com>> >>> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com>> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> >>> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net>> t.net> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com>> >>> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com>> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**>> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >>> >>> brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/n >>> >>> abs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com>> org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com> >>> >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org>> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >>> or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/****sgermano% >>> 40asu.edu>> >>> rmano%40asu.edu >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >>> >>> mcast.net >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >>> >>> mcast.net >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade >>> >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> carlymih%40comcast.net>> t.org/carlymih%40comcast.net> >>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu >> .edu> u.edu> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:51:59 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:51:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the more practical way to go. On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and > solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public transit > and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over time, > even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed > opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. Less > time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we should > never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while > we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing > electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of them > now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be > done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > >> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >> >> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these >> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> Aleeha, >> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car to >> drive in public. >> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant >> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking public >> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >> >> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a lot >> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >> competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience >> perhaps. It’s a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >> but >> you need a job to cultivate experience. >> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think >> are >> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not only >> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >> real, these are barriers. >> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that people >> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >> gaurantee >> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >> does >> not gaurantee you a job. >> >> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if I >> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships >> in >> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >> >> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >> for >> the public. >> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >> employed. It could be you one day. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Aleeha Dudley >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello all, >> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >> and about the attitude of some list members. >> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >> us to drive on the roads. >> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >> may be younger than most of us. >> Thank you, >> Aleeha >> >> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like >>> you >>> >>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one >>> if >>> >>> given a choice. >>> >>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>> paratransit >>> >>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to >>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>> >>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >>> the >>> >>> car. >>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us >>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and >>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, >>> and >>> >>> drunk drivers. >>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it >>> when obstacles arise. >>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to >>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians >>> who >>> >>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is >>> on >>> >>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted >>> drivers on cell phones. >>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >>> to >>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>> hazards. >>> >>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>> you >>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want >>> to >>> >>> be on the road with you. >>> >>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but >>> we >>> >>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>> not do it? >>> >>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>> think? LOL! >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 03:01:04 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:01:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I do think that, for the sake of the environment, it would be ideal if we could perfect public transit in all places, even rural places. However, I think it would take a tremendous social shift in order for that to happen and I suspect that no matter how good public transit is, enough people would still insist on driving their cars that the system wouldn't get enough ridership to pay for it. So I think that realistically we will need to support the blind driver projects, but I would also definitely like to see public transit improved and streamlined. Arielle On 4/14/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It > wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. > With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do > home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job > at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just > make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and > others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive > themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would > absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less > wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would > be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than > sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus > twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when > the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. > > Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal > with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher > gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours > later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a > drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been > fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from > the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to > mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was > quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the > expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that > one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his > cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he > used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me > feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with > that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because > they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if > given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and > drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather > stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the > more practical way to go. > > On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and >> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public >> transit >> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over >> time, >> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. >> Less >> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we >> should >> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while >> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing >> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of >> them >> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be >> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" >> wrote: >> >>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>> >>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these >>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Aleeha, >>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>> to >>> drive in public. >>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant >>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>> public >>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>> >>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a >>> lot >>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience >>> perhaps. It’s a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >>> but >>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think >>> are >>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not >>> only >>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >>> real, these are barriers. >>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that >>> people >>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>> gaurantee >>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >>> does >>> not gaurantee you a job. >>> >>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if >>> I >>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships >>> in >>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>> >>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >>> for >>> the public. >>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>> employed. It could be you one day. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello all, >>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>> us to drive on the roads. >>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>> may be younger than most of us. >>> Thank you, >>> Aleeha >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>> like >>>> you >>>> >>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>> one >>>> if >>>> >>>> given a choice. >>>> >>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>> paratransit >>>> >>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>> to >>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>> >>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >>>> the >>>> >>>> car. >>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of >>>> us >>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit >>>> and >>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>> rage, >>>> and >>>> >>>> drunk drivers. >>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>> it >>>> when obstacles arise. >>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>> to >>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>> pedestrians >>>> who >>>> >>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>> is >>>> on >>>> >>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>> distracted >>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >>>> to >>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>>> hazards. >>>> >>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>>> you >>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't >>>> want >>>> to >>>> >>>> be on the road with you. >>>> >>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>> but >>>> we >>>> >>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>>> not do it? >>>> >>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I’d rather be self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead >>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I’d be riding extra long. Here in >>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I’d >>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>> before >>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>> pay >>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>> think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kingettr at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 03:05:59 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:05:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car In-Reply-To: <00d701ce38b5$787ac1b0$69704510$@gmail.com> References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> <00d701ce38b5$787ac1b0$69704510$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516B6E97.9090901@gmail.com> do youo have an Mp3 of that paratransit song? From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 03:13:01 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 23:13:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car In-Reply-To: <516B6E97.9090901@gmail.com> References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> <00d701ce38b5$787ac1b0$69704510$@gmail.com> <516B6E97.9090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00eb01ce38bd$f9416530$ebc42f90$@gmail.com> That was a funny song wasn't it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car do youo have an Mp3 of that paratransit song? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kingettr at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 03:21:40 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:21:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] video of a blind man driving the google car In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <516B3DE6.7070504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516B7244.9060204@gmail.com> that video I posted was of the Google car. there was no "correction" to my message that was needed. From kingettr at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 03:32:37 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:32:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] long documentary of the google car In-Reply-To: <516B7244.9060204@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <516B3DE6.7070504@gmail.com> <516B7244.9060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516B74D5.4050600@gmail.com> here is a longer in depth look at the google car. http://youtu.be/HlJU7GgBMmY From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 04:12:43 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 01:12:43 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC><000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to depend on a cab to get from one place to another. I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think having a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at two places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out having to set a pick up time with the cab. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the more practical way to go. On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and > solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public transit > and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over time, > even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed > opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. Less > time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we should > never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while > we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing > electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of them > now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be > done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > >> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >> >> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these >> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> Aleeha, >> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car to >> drive in public. >> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant >> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking public >> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >> >> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a lot >> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >> competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience >> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >> but >> you need a job to cultivate experience. >> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think >> are >> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not only >> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >> real, these are barriers. >> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that people >> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >> gaurantee >> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >> does >> not gaurantee you a job. >> >> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if I >> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships >> in >> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >> >> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >> for >> the public. >> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >> employed. It could be you one day. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Aleeha Dudley >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello all, >> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >> and about the attitude of some list members. >> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >> us to drive on the roads. >> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >> may be younger than most of us. >> Thank you, >> Aleeha >> >> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like >>> you >>> >>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one >>> if >>> >>> given a choice. >>> >>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>> paratransit >>> >>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to >>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>> >>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >>> the >>> >>> car. >>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us >>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and >>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, >>> and >>> >>> drunk drivers. >>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it >>> when obstacles arise. >>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to >>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians >>> who >>> >>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is >>> on >>> >>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted >>> drivers on cell phones. >>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >>> to >>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>> hazards. >>> >>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>> you >>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want >>> to >>> >>> be on the road with you. >>> >>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but >>> we >>> >>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>> not do it? >>> >>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead >>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before >>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay >>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>> think? LOL! >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail .com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 05:34:03 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 01:34:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Rania, Us therapists and our traveling... well, future therapist in my case, but still. :) It would be so awesome to tell an employer when they ask how I'd be able to get from one hospital or school to the next, "Yes, I'm blind, but there are these amazing self-driving cars Google made and I have one. I'd be happy to go wherever the clients are." I would love that type of flexibility! On 4/15/13, Rania Ismail LMT wrote: > I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to > depend > on a cab to get from one place to another. > I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think having > a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at two > places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. > I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out having > to set a pick up time with the cab. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It > wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. > With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do > home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job > at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just > make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and > others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive > themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would > absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less > wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would > be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than > sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus > twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when > the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. > > Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal > with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher > gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours > later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a > drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been > fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from > the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to > mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was > quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the > expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that > one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his > cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he > used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me > feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with > that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because > they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if > given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and > drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather > stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the > more practical way to go. > > On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and >> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public > transit >> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over > time, >> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. > Less >> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we > should >> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while >> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing >> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of > them >> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be >> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" > wrote: >> >>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>> >>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these >>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Aleeha, >>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>> to >>> drive in public. >>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant >>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>> public >>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>> >>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a > lot >>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience >>> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >>> but >>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think >>> are >>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not > only >>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >>> real, these are barriers. >>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that > people >>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>> gaurantee >>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >>> does >>> not gaurantee you a job. >>> >>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if > I >>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships >>> in >>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>> >>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >>> for >>> the public. >>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>> employed. It could be you one day. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello all, >>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>> us to drive on the roads. >>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>> may be younger than most of us. >>> Thank you, >>> Aleeha >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>> like >>>> you >>>> >>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>> one >>>> if >>>> >>>> given a choice. >>>> >>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>> paratransit >>>> >>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>> to >>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>> >>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >>>> the >>>> >>>> car. >>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us >>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit > and >>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>> rage, >>>> and >>>> >>>> drunk drivers. >>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>> it >>>> when obstacles arise. >>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>> to >>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>> pedestrians >>>> who >>>> >>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>> is >>>> on >>>> >>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted >>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >>>> to >>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>>> hazards. >>>> >>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>>> you >>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't > want >>>> to >>>> >>>> be on the road with you. >>>> >>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>> but >>>> we >>>> >>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>>> not do it? >>>> >>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead >>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>> before >>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>> pay >>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>> think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail > .com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 05:42:01 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 01:42:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: The other thing to remember is that in a lot of cases friends and family aren't always going to be around to take you somewhere at the drop of a hat. I've seen this even with my mom and sister. When it was just my mom driving me and my siblings around she would have to plan out everything to make sure she got everyone where they needed to be, but in the process she would have to interrupt her life or make a change in what she was doing for one of her kids. She had jobs with flexible hours so in terms of employment it wasn't a big deal if we needed her to give us a ride, but it was a lot of running around and very inconvenient for her. It got a little better when my sister got her drivers license because then she could drive me to and from school, to and from clarinet lessons, and do some of the driving, but once she got a job she was pretty much unavailable except for getting to and from school because she'd go straight to work afterwards. By that time my mom had started working a job with less flexibility because she was on the opposite side of town, and I couldn't ask my sister to be late for work or to leave early to get me. I did a lot of waiting around, got very familiar with sitting around in the lobby of my high school reading books or doing homework. The only difference is back then it didn't really matter if I had to wait because aside from school most of the time I didn't have anything truly important to do. In the professional world, however, it's different. You also have to recognize that family members aren't always going to be available due to their own professional commitments, and asking them to sacrifice or jeopardize their own things to get you isn't exactly fair. That's another perk of the google car, if I had it I'd be able to not interrupt my mom or sister's lives as much as I did when I was in high school. I don't mean that I would never take them up on a ride offer; if they're in the neighborhood or the trip isn't too far out of their way I'd take it, but I wouldn't want to ask for their assistance every single week or for them to take me from client to client. On 4/15/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Rania, > > Us therapists and our traveling... well, future therapist in my case, > but still. :) > It would be so awesome to tell an employer when they ask how I'd be > able to get from one hospital or school to the next, "Yes, I'm blind, > but there are these amazing self-driving cars Google made and I have > one. I'd be happy to go wherever the clients are." I would love that > type of flexibility! > > On 4/15/13, Rania Ismail LMT wrote: >> I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to >> depend >> on a cab to get from one place to another. >> I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think >> having >> a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at >> two >> places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. >> I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out >> having >> to set a pick up time with the cab. >> Rania, >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It >> wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. >> With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do >> home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job >> at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just >> make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and >> others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive >> themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would >> absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less >> wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would >> be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than >> sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus >> twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when >> the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. >> >> Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal >> with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher >> gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours >> later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a >> drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been >> fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from >> the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to >> mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was >> quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the >> expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that >> one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his >> cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he >> used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me >> feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with >> that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because >> they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if >> given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and >> drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather >> stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the >> more practical way to go. >> >> On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives >>> and >>> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public >> transit >>> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over >> time, >>> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >>> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. >> Less >>> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we >> should >>> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while >>> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing >>> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of >> them >>> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be >>> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" >> wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>>> >>>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches >>>> these >>>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> Aleeha, >>>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>>> to >>>> drive in public. >>>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the >>>> distant >>>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>>> public >>>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>>> >>>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a >> lot >>>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer >>>> experience >>>> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >>>> but >>>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >>>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not >>>> think >>>> are >>>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not >> only >>>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >>>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >>>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >>>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >>>> real, these are barriers. >>>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that >> people >>>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>>> gaurantee >>>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >>>> does >>>> not gaurantee you a job. >>>> >>>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >>>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but >>>> if >> I >>>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had >>>> internships >>>> in >>>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>>> >>>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >>>> for >>>> the public. >>>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>>> employed. It could be you one day. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>>> us to drive on the roads. >>>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>>> may be younger than most of us. >>>> Thank you, >>>> Aleeha >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>>> like >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>>> one >>>>> if >>>>> >>>>> given a choice. >>>>> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>> paratransit >>>>> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and >>>>> safe. >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>>> to >>>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>> override >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> car. >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is >>>>> self >>>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of >> us >>>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit >> and >>>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>>> rage, >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>>> it >>>>> when obstacles arise. >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>>> to >>>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly >>>>> turn >>>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>>> pedestrians >>>>> who >>>>> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>>> is >>>>> on >>>>> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> distracted >>>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >>>>> needs >>>>> to >>>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>>>> hazards. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>>>> you >>>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't >> want >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>>> but >>>>> we >>>>> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>>>> not do it? >>>>> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead >>>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >>>>>> where >>>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>>> before >>>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets >>>>>> of >>>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>>> pay >>>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people >>>>>> can >>>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>>> think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail >> .com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Apr 15 11:12:47 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:12:47 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> , Message-ID: Why are we all wanting the Google car? The NFB has its own car! http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:34 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Rania, Us therapists and our traveling... well, future therapist in my case, but still. :) It would be so awesome to tell an employer when they ask how I'd be able to get from one hospital or school to the next, "Yes, I'm blind, but there are these amazing self-driving cars Google made and I have one. I'd be happy to go wherever the clients are." I would love that type of flexibility! On 4/15/13, Rania Ismail LMT wrote: > I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to > depend > on a cab to get from one place to another. > I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think having > a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at two > places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. > I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out having > to set a pick up time with the cab. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It > wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. > With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do > home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job > at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just > make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and > others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive > themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would > absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less > wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would > be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than > sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus > twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when > the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. > > Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal > with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher > gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours > later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a > drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been > fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from > the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to > mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was > quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the > expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that > one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his > cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he > used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me > feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with > that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because > they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if > given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and > drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather > stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the > more practical way to go. > > On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and >> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public > transit >> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over > time, >> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. > Less >> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we > should >> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while >> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing >> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of > them >> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be >> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" > wrote: >> >>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>> >>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these >>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Aleeha, >>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>> to >>> drive in public. >>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant >>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>> public >>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>> >>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a > lot >>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience >>> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >>> but >>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think >>> are >>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not > only >>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >>> real, these are barriers. >>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that > people >>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>> gaurantee >>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >>> does >>> not gaurantee you a job. >>> >>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if > I >>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships >>> in >>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>> >>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >>> for >>> the public. >>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>> employed. It could be you one day. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello all, >>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>> us to drive on the roads. >>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>> may be younger than most of us. >>> Thank you, >>> Aleeha >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>> like >>>> you >>>> >>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>> one >>>> if >>>> >>>> given a choice. >>>> >>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>> paratransit >>>> >>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>> to >>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>> >>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >>>> the >>>> >>>> car. >>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us >>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit > and >>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>> rage, >>>> and >>>> >>>> drunk drivers. >>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>> it >>>> when obstacles arise. >>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>> to >>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>> pedestrians >>>> who >>>> >>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>> is >>>> on >>>> >>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted >>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >>>> to >>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>>> hazards. >>>> >>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>>> you >>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't > want >>>> to >>>> >>>> be on the road with you. >>>> >>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>> but >>>> we >>>> >>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>>> not do it? >>>> >>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead >>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>> before >>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>> pay >>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>> think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail > .com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Apr 15 11:25:35 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <003301ce395e$ad099b00$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC>, <003301ce395e$ad099b00$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Wow, Peter! Like minds huh? I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Good afternoon one more time everyone, Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this technology along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the track at Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all ready been demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals have driven the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to unite and work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone else to insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is controllable by a blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is protected. We don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom and empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble initiative. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Amen, Patrick! Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Molloy Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you. When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw the thing! If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! If you want to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or another. Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. Separate is not equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted people. Patrick On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 11:44:52 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:44:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <516be86b.07a4ec0a.0fd9.ffffa7c9@mx.google.com> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or electricity? ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0eart hlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s atx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 11:48:21 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:48:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516aadeb.2b78ec0a.2f4b.ffff9111@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi all, Joshua, If you read the entire thread Patrick brings up a good point. We haven't heard anything about the blind driver challenge or the car advancing from the prototype in years. It hasn't been a big thing since 2011. After the car was driven at Daytona we didn't hear anything more about the interface being upgraded, more safety features being added, etc. So, to a lot of people, even staunch federationists, the issue seems dead... what else are we supposed to think if we haven't heard about the car for so long? That is why we need to get behind the google car. Also, another thing to consider, I'm all for supporting the NFB, but even when The Blind Driver Challenge was going on I wasn't a big fan of the interface involving a vest and whatever else the contraption needed to work. If I'm going to have a car having to suit up first kind of defeats the purpose of being able to get up and go. Plus, the car was driven by a blind person at Daytona, but very slowly. If this google car is as good as it says, it's already driven on the highway, which with other cars around would have required at least reaching 60-65 miles. From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Apr 15 11:49:18 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516be86b.07a4ec0a.0fd9.ffffa7c9@mx.google.com> References: <516be86b.07a4ec0a.0fd9.ffffa7c9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. The car should be out by 2016. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or electricity? ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0eart hlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s atx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 10:49:03 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:49:03 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC><000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <749EC6B613494F3CA21D3B08455146CE@userPC> Oh yes I would like to be able to say that. I would like to be able to have the flexability to get to more events. The one event I am taking part in with work in May I am going to see if a co-worker can pick me up and bring me home. I don't know how much the cab will charge me and I know they are most likely not going to send a driver to pick me up at 6 in the morning the next day when the event is over. If I can get a co-worker to pick me up that will help but if I had a car I wouldn't even have to go threw the stress and frustration of the extra planning that goes in to it. I could just show up with out any problem! Really looking forward to this! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 2:34 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Rania, Us therapists and our traveling... well, future therapist in my case, but still. :) It would be so awesome to tell an employer when they ask how I'd be able to get from one hospital or school to the next, "Yes, I'm blind, but there are these amazing self-driving cars Google made and I have one. I'd be happy to go wherever the clients are." I would love that type of flexibility! On 4/15/13, Rania Ismail LMT wrote: > I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to > depend > on a cab to get from one place to another. > I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think having > a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at two > places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. > I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out having > to set a pick up time with the cab. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It > wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. > With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do > home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job > at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just > make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and > others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive > themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would > absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less > wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would > be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than > sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus > twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when > the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. > > Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal > with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher > gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours > later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a > drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been > fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from > the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to > mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was > quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the > expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that > one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his > cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he > used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me > feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with > that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because > they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if > given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and > drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather > stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the > more practical way to go. > > On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and >> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public > transit >> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over > time, >> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. > Less >> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we > should >> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while >> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing >> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of > them >> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be >> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" > wrote: >> >>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>> >>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these >>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Aleeha, >>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>> to >>> drive in public. >>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant >>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>> public >>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>> >>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a > lot >>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience >>> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >>> but >>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think >>> are >>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not > only >>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >>> real, these are barriers. >>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that > people >>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>> gaurantee >>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >>> does >>> not gaurantee you a job. >>> >>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if > I >>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships >>> in >>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>> >>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >>> for >>> the public. >>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>> employed. It could be you one day. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Hello all, >>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>> us to drive on the roads. >>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>> may be younger than most of us. >>> Thank you, >>> Aleeha >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>> like >>>> you >>>> >>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>> one >>>> if >>>> >>>> given a choice. >>>> >>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>> paratransit >>>> >>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>> to >>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>> >>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >>>> the >>>> >>>> car. >>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of > us >>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit > and >>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>> rage, >>>> and >>>> >>>> drunk drivers. >>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>> it >>>> when obstacles arise. >>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>> to >>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>> pedestrians >>>> who >>>> >>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>> is >>>> on >>>> >>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted >>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >>>> to >>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>>> hazards. >>>> >>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>>> you >>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't > want >>>> to >>>> >>>> be on the road with you. >>>> >>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>> but >>>> we >>>> >>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>>> not do it? >>>> >>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead >>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>> before >>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>> pay >>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>> think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail > .com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 11:49:35 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:49:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car In-Reply-To: <00eb01ce38bd$f9416530$ebc42f90$@gmail.com> References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> <00d701ce38b5$787ac1b0$69704510$@gmail.com> <516B6E97.9090901@gmail.com> <00eb01ce38bd$f9416530$ebc42f90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-6708701627160264315@unknownmsgid> Justin and Robert, It was in the August/September 2007 issue of the monitor. When I get back home to my computer, I will look it up and send you the link. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2013, at 11:12 PM, justin williams wrote: > That was a funny song wasn't it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William > Kingett > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car > > do youo have an Mp3 of that paratransit song? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 10:52:31 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:52:31 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC><000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I agree. I don't ask my sister to drive me all the time. She goes to school and works so I use a cab to get ware I need to go. With the car I wouldn't have to wait around for anyone to pick me up. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 2:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets The other thing to remember is that in a lot of cases friends and family aren't always going to be around to take you somewhere at the drop of a hat. I've seen this even with my mom and sister. When it was just my mom driving me and my siblings around she would have to plan out everything to make sure she got everyone where they needed to be, but in the process she would have to interrupt her life or make a change in what she was doing for one of her kids. She had jobs with flexible hours so in terms of employment it wasn't a big deal if we needed her to give us a ride, but it was a lot of running around and very inconvenient for her. It got a little better when my sister got her drivers license because then she could drive me to and from school, to and from clarinet lessons, and do some of the driving, but once she got a job she was pretty much unavailable except for getting to and from school because she'd go straight to work afterwards. By that time my mom had started working a job with less flexibility because she was on the opposite side of town, and I couldn't ask my sister to be late for work or to leave early to get me. I did a lot of waiting around, got very familiar with sitting around in the lobby of my high school reading books or doing homework. The only difference is back then it didn't really matter if I had to wait because aside from school most of the time I didn't have anything truly important to do. In the professional world, however, it's different. You also have to recognize that family members aren't always going to be available due to their own professional commitments, and asking them to sacrifice or jeopardize their own things to get you isn't exactly fair. That's another perk of the google car, if I had it I'd be able to not interrupt my mom or sister's lives as much as I did when I was in high school. I don't mean that I would never take them up on a ride offer; if they're in the neighborhood or the trip isn't too far out of their way I'd take it, but I wouldn't want to ask for their assistance every single week or for them to take me from client to client. On 4/15/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Rania, > > Us therapists and our traveling... well, future therapist in my case, > but still. :) > It would be so awesome to tell an employer when they ask how I'd be > able to get from one hospital or school to the next, "Yes, I'm blind, > but there are these amazing self-driving cars Google made and I have > one. I'd be happy to go wherever the clients are." I would love that > type of flexibility! > > On 4/15/13, Rania Ismail LMT wrote: >> I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to >> depend >> on a cab to get from one place to another. >> I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think >> having >> a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at >> two >> places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. >> I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out >> having >> to set a pick up time with the cab. >> Rania, >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It >> wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. >> With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do >> home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job >> at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just >> make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and >> others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive >> themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would >> absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less >> wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would >> be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than >> sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus >> twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when >> the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. >> >> Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal >> with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher >> gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours >> later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a >> drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been >> fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from >> the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to >> mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was >> quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the >> expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that >> one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his >> cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he >> used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me >> feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with >> that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because >> they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if >> given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and >> drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather >> stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the >> more practical way to go. >> >> On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives >>> and >>> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public >> transit >>> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over >> time, >>> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >>> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. >> Less >>> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we >> should >>> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while >>> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing >>> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of >> them >>> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be >>> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" >> wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>>> >>>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches >>>> these >>>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> Aleeha, >>>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>>> to >>>> drive in public. >>>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the >>>> distant >>>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>>> public >>>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>>> >>>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a >> lot >>>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer >>>> experience >>>> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >>>> but >>>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >>>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not >>>> think >>>> are >>>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not >> only >>>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >>>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >>>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >>>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >>>> real, these are barriers. >>>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that >> people >>>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>>> gaurantee >>>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >>>> does >>>> not gaurantee you a job. >>>> >>>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >>>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but >>>> if >> I >>>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had >>>> internships >>>> in >>>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>>> >>>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >>>> for >>>> the public. >>>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>>> employed. It could be you one day. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>>> us to drive on the roads. >>>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>>> may be younger than most of us. >>>> Thank you, >>>> Aleeha >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>>> like >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>>> one >>>>> if >>>>> >>>>> given a choice. >>>>> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>> paratransit >>>>> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and >>>>> safe. >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>>> to >>>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>> override >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> car. >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is >>>>> self >>>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of >> us >>>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit >> and >>>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>>> rage, >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>>> it >>>>> when obstacles arise. >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>>> to >>>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly >>>>> turn >>>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>>> pedestrians >>>>> who >>>>> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>>> is >>>>> on >>>>> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> distracted >>>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >>>>> needs >>>>> to >>>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>>>> hazards. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>>>> you >>>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't >> want >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>>> but >>>>> we >>>>> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>>>> not do it? >>>>> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead >>>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >>>>>> where >>>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>>> before >>>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets >>>>>> of >>>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>>> pay >>>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people >>>>>> can >>>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>>> think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail >> .com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Apr 15 11:55:07 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:55:07 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516aadeb.2b78ec0a.2f4b.ffff9111@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130414064405.0201c0c8@comcast.net> , Message-ID: Well, Peter made some excellent points on here as well. They probably won't tell everything that's going on with the car, because they don't want what has happened with Apple, to happen to them. If you remember, some of Apple's stuff got leaked out, and other companies were trying to make money by using Apple's ideas. We don't want that here. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi all, Joshua, If you read the entire thread Patrick brings up a good point. We haven't heard anything about the blind driver challenge or the car advancing from the prototype in years. It hasn't been a big thing since 2011. After the car was driven at Daytona we didn't hear anything more about the interface being upgraded, more safety features being added, etc. So, to a lot of people, even staunch federationists, the issue seems dead... what else are we supposed to think if we haven't heard about the car for so long? That is why we need to get behind the google car. Also, another thing to consider, I'm all for supporting the NFB, but even when The Blind Driver Challenge was going on I wasn't a big fan of the interface involving a vest and whatever else the contraption needed to work. If I'm going to have a car having to suit up first kind of defeats the purpose of being able to get up and go. Plus, the car was driven by a blind person at Daytona, but very slowly. If this google car is as good as it says, it's already driven on the highway, which with other cars around would have required at least reaching 60-65 miles. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 15 14:42:09 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:42:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Driving and Flying Blind References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001d01ce39e7$695882c0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good morning Chris and everyone, It's not just the average American that must decide which mode of transportation system best sutes their needs. Corporations must also decide the best way to move their people between destinations. For busy corporate executives, entertainers, and other high-profile individuals public transportation be it surface or by air won't cut it. A number of companies have been criticized for their use of private jets to transport company personnel to various destinations throughout the World. What the media is missing is that these are busy people who are trying to maximize their time including the time needed to travel from point A to point B. The blind are no different. We have a national convention coming up in July. Those of us who fly know what a hassle it can be, having to arrive at the airport several hours before your flight, waiting in long lines, having to deal with the TSA, etc. The alternative to that is boarding a limousine or driving yourself to your nearest airport and I'm not just talking about major airports. You arrive 15 to 20 minutes prior to your departure. You drive your car in to a parking lot close to the terminal (In private jet circles these are called Fixed-Base Operators or FBO'S.) Alternatively a limousine or a taxi picks you up from home and pulls up plane-side, your baggage is loaded directly on to the aircraft. What security checks you undergo are far less invasive than those regular airline passengers get when they fly so no need to worry about your cane or your guide dog being snatched away from you, you board the plane yourself and are soon on your way to Orlando. The same process is repeated during your return trip. Taking it one step further assuming the plane has been fitted with the technology that is being used to allow a blind person to drive a car independently and have the freedom to decide when you take off and land because you're the pilot. Given the choice flying privately would definitely be preferred over travel on an airline. What those of us who want the ability to make that choice must do is support the NFB's efforts to make this technologically possible and create the needed incomes to realize that dream. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Cc: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 7:50 PM Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car Ashley, Let me give you an example of what Suzanne, Sophie and I (among others) have been saying. You have previously mentioned on this list that you live in northern Virginia, near Fairfax and Falls Church. It is true that your part of Virginia is relatively close to Washington, DC, and that many people who work in the DC metro area live in Fairfax County. However, your public transportation options are limited. I know this because I live about an hour away from Washington and consequently know some people who work there, both blind and sighted. You have the DC metro system. However, there are a few problems with this option. Firstly, you must get to your nearest metro station before you can even consider taking the metro. If it's not in walking distance, how are you going to do that? Will you not need a sighted driver, a public bus, or some other form of transportation provided by somebody else? You will. So, you run into the same problem of relying on somebody else to provide transportation. With the Google car, this would not be an issue- in fact, you wouldn't even need to take the metro. Secondly, the metro can be very crowded. This can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, you have people who can give you directions if needed. However, this can make the trip take longer and be more of a hassle. In short, if you're in any kind of hurry, don't take the metro--not in DC. There is also the option of the public bus. However, as with the metro, there are two problems with this: time and availability. As Suzanne has repeatedly reminded us, trips which would only take 10 or 15 minutes by car can take hours by public bus or subway. There is also the issue of availability. In urban cities, this is not much of a problem, as the bus system covers everything within the city limits in most cases. However, the limitation of the city limits can present problems if you live in a suburb of the city in question. Fairfax County is the biggest county in Virginia. So, if you live in a suburb of the city of Fairfax (and many people do,) you run the risk of living in an area which is not covered by the city's bus system. Why do you think there is so much traffic on the roads of most major cities? It's because "Ol' Sighty" doesn't want to deal with the hassle of public transportation. Is this self-serving? Maybe, but I don't think so. To me, "ol' Sighty" is weighing the pros and cons of his options to get from Point A to Point B, and deciding that a car would serve his needs best. Then there's paratransit. This option can present the same problems as the others, but on a larger scale. Whereas you are only dealing with the time it takes a public bus to get from its starting point to its destination, a paratransit van might show up hours late to the pickup location if it shows up at all. If this happens (and it often does to countless blind people,) the blind person relying on paratransit is left stranded until the van shows up. There is an NFB song about this which comes to mind. Entitled "The Paratransit Song," it goes like this: Para-transit, para-transit, para-transit, I did ride. You have hurt my heart and soul, but most of all you hurt my pride. Had a rendezvous with my sweetheart set the time for half past eight. By the time it finally got there, it was almost three hours late. Then the driver when arriving took away my long white cane. So I missed a step or two. Now I'm in a searing pain. So I boarded paratransit looking for an empty seat. Then another person's wheelchair caught and tripped me off my feet. Though my port of destination only was a mile away, Yet I had to cross the Interstate, and the driver took all day. My return trip I requested from a clerk who could not write. They forgot where they had left me, so I camped out overnight. Para-transit, para-transit, you have left me sad and blue. For the sweetheart whom I once loved is now seeing someone new. Oh this means of transportation has caused me such a fuss I'll give up on para-transit, and I'll ride the public bus. Yes, this is probably a hypothetical and extreme story. However, it raises some important points in the debate we have been having on this list. Should we have to be subjected to stories like the one related in the song? Must we settle for the unreliability of the subway or the public bus? We have had to settle for this for so long now, but now the technology exists which will allow us to have the same freedom in choosing our mode of transportation as our sighted peers. Yet, some of us are saying that you would rather take the bus. That is your opinion and your choice, and I respect that. If "Ol' Sighty" has the option to take the public bus instead of driving a car, we should have that choice as well, although I disagree with it. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't have the choice. We in the Federation believe that we can and ought to compete on terms of equality with our sighted peers. If technology allows us to compete on equal terms with "Ol' Sighty" in one more area of life, I say we should take advantage of that opportunity! Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Public transit serves our need just fine? Really? First of all I don't want to settle for just fine! Apparently you have not really tried to go to many places!!! Because I have lived in major cities San Diego, North Chicago suburb and Phoenix and they are plenty of places the the bus does not even go near not to mention I don't want to take 3 hours to get somewhere. I want a life that is not 5, 6,7 hours a day a a freaking bus!! I have zero desire to ever live in the actual down town of a city. I have had to take en entire day off from work to go to a 15 min doctor appointment because of how long it took on the bus and it was a 25 min car drive. I have ridden the bus for 47 years and I am tired of it! I still hate it. How about grocery shopping? I don't want to be limited to what I can carry walking to the bus stop and then walking form the stop to my house. I want to be free to go where I when when I want and for how long I want and ALONE if I want On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good moring, > Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta > airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving > project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just > fine. > Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be > frivolous, and self serving, then have fun! > Carlycarlymih at comcast.net > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list < nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Evening, Josh, >> >> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a >> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably >> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way >> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation... >> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters >> within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in >> our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and >> sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling >> wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on, >> unabated. >> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel? >> Have a good day! >> Carly >> >> Hello, >> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to >> events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few, >> although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think >> it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but >> without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks >> the sighted drivers constantly face. >> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my >> mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my >> opinion. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can >> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this >> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread, >> >> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement >> without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we >> don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say >> the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving >> blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway? >> 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum >> wrote: >> >> Kirt, >> >> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we >> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all >> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes. >> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by >> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which >> someone reposted here mentioned. >> >> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't >> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such >> as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural >> town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation >> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of >> these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the >> reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the >> Google car might give me in this area. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: >> >> Patrick, >> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're >> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that >> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly >> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able >> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to >> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the >> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know" >> were probably >> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was >> viable to the general public. >> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have >> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing. >> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close >> attention in the event something goes wrong. >> Carley, >> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about >> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public >> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to >> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally >> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and >> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough >> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and >> trains any time soon. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/10/13, justin williams wrote: >> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org> s-l-bounces at nfbnet.org> >> >] >> On Behalf Of Carly >> Mihalakis >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi, List, >> >> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem >> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow >> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap >> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever >> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal >> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or >> friend/driver cannot? >> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a >> communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty! >> So no, on the car! >> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote: >> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major >> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in >> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to >> drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled. >> Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a >> self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's >> safe for us and for others on the road. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already >> going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is >> nothing wrong with backing both cars. >> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own >> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a >> screen reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a >> screen reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is >> going mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the >> same if Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started >> making units that used Jaws and no screen. >> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most >> common tasks. >> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very >> little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long >> driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till >> the road could be completely entered into the database. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a >> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them >> to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hello, >> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into >> account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out, >> but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon. >> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could >> even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take >> the challenge. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Justin Young >> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for >> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting >> project. >> >> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads >> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the >> nation's first autonomous vehicle license. >> >> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in >> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the >> Nevada DMV said in a statement. >> >> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the >> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went >> into effect on March 1, 2012. >> >> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors, >> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven >> cars to help navigate, according to the company. >> >> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its >> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor >> and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun. >> >> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and >> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the >> company. >> >> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director >> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to >> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the >> public, the DMV said. >> >> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other >> states, including Google's home state of California. >> >> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error. >> Through >> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous >> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly >> and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex >> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car >> legislation. >> >> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in >> Nevada, the DMV said. >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> jty727%40gmai> >> /jty727%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithb> >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> sweetpeareade> >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithb> >> /brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> sweetpeareade> >> /sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net> t.net> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> justin.williams2%40gmail> >> _nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%**40gmail> ams2%40gmail> >> .com >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%**40gmail.com> razydude%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> carlymih%40comcast.net> >> fbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.**net> t.net> >> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> -l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%**40gmail.com> .nusbaum%40gmail.com> >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> net.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**> >> >> brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com<**http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/n >> >> abs-l_nfbnet.org/**brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com> org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> t.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> net.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-**l_nfbnet.org> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/****sgermano% >> 40asu.edu> >> rmano%40asu.edu >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**blackbyrdfly% >> 40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**carlymih%40co >> >> mcast.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sweetpeareade >> >> r%40gmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net> t.org/carlymih%40comcast.net> >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu > .edu u.edu> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 15 14:45:24 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:45:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [nfb-talk] Fw: Won't it be nice ? Message-ID: <003101ce39e7$dd1bfa70$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good morning again everyone, I'm not sure if someone all ready posted this article here but decided to forward it for your consideration. The U.S. is not the only country where the possibility of blind-drivable cars is being explored. Enjoy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Meskys" To: "nfb-talk" ; "nfbnh-news" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 8:58 AM Subject: [nfb-talk] Fw: Won't it be nice ? This was sent to me by a friend in Ireland. This is not the NFB car which a blind person actually drives, but is a step on the path. Ed Meskys ----- Original Message ----- >From Monday, April 15, 2013 8:34 AM Subject: Won't it be nice ? MAGAZINE 14 April 2013 Last updated at 19:37 ET Blind drivers at the steering wheel By Damon Rose BBC News Innovations in automated driving have led to speculation that blind people may be able to take to the wheel. But do they want to drive - and could it become a reality? How would you feel if a blind person pulled up next to you in a car? This time last year, Google released a video showing a blind man driving a car. He was seen going to a local drive-through restaurant near his home in San Jose, California, and later collecting dry cleaning without any difficulty. Steve Mahan, the driver, heads the Santa Clara Valley Blind Center and hadn't been in the driver's seat of a car since giving up his licence eight years earlier after losing 95% of his sight. On this occasion, the only action he performed was to press a start button. He couldn't control the car independently, but the video showed an intent to make driving more accessible and safe for everyone. "I'm finding there's a lot of buzz, a lot of people in the blind community talking about driverless cars," says Mahan. "In America, getting a driver's licence is a rite of passage. It represents being able, having the liberty to go where you want to go. Cars and car ownership are important parts of a sense of independence and personal power." Public transport isn't very developed in the US, so being carless can leave you isolated and could contribute to problems such as unemployment. Because of this, cars can provoke a very emotional response among blind people, says Mahan. "We have had clients that will just go out and sit in the vehicles they used to drive and turn the motor on, just to be behind the wheel." The driverless car uses a combination of GPS, laser, radar and 3D environment data that was likely to have been collected by Google's other cars, the ones whose picture-taking brought us Street View. Mahan, 60, believes blind people will be driving in his lifetime and, after experiencing several journeys in the Google car, says he'd be confident enough to use one now if it had talking controls. Others are much more sceptical. "I would be surprised if in the next five years these products will reach market and we'd be legally allowed to drive," says Hugh Huddy, a campaigns officer at the Royal National Institute of Blind People, and who is himself blind. The technology may be heading in one direction, but there are other barriers to the prospect of blind people driving - namely lawmakers and other road users. Google has been successful in lobbying the states of Nevada, California and Florida, all of which have now passed laws to allow the testing of automated cars on their roads. It doesn't follow that people with sight loss will automatically be granted a licence, though. Huddy is concerned about insurance and liability. "If someone is involved in an accident, a human being could run in front of the car, or a load could fall off a lorry, and the technology probably would not save you from being in a collision," he says. It evokes nightmare scenarios of people who can't see, sitting in a metal box oblivious to the fact that a truck may be bearing down on them, or wondering what that soggy sounding chassis-shaking bump may have been. Google's automated cars have already travelled 300,000 miles and caused no accidents. This is said to be safer than the average driver. Ingmar Posner, an engineer at the mobile robotics group at the University of Oxford, is part of an engineering team working on a car that will be able to take the strain off the driver with partial automation. "Imagine one day on the M25 you're trying to go from A to B. A light will come on your dashboard and say, 'I know exactly where I am, we've driven this stretch of road loads of times. If you like, I can take over for the next 500m.'" The futuristic idea of a fully-automated vehicle in which you can sit back and read while sipping a cappuccino on the way to work is capturing the imagination, but isn't yet close to going on sale. Cars that can do smaller functions, such as control a car in traffic jams, keep you inside lane markings or auto-park, are already on the road or about to come to market courtesy of Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and others. Posner believes his car could affordably reach the showrooms in 10 or 15 years, but that a fully blind person still wouldn't be able to drive it. He believes partially automated cars like his will help to make it possible for some impairments to be eliminated as barriers to driving. "The thing I'm envisioning is that visual aids in your field of vision could highlight the lane markings for people who find night driving difficult," he says. "You also get pedestrian detection in cars these days so the edges [of disability and ability] will start to get blurred." Lots of people will need convincing that someone with no sight should be allowed to pilot a road vehicle independently. Mahan thinks a gradual creep of automated features will lay the foundations for blind drivers to become acceptable. "What will happen is they will not get comfortable with blind people driving, they will get comfortable with the capabilities of self-driving cars that sighted people will be using." He points out that, even if it does occur, cars still won't be the answer to all his way-finding challenges. "There will still be a difficulty getting out of the car and finding your way to a front door of where you're headed, once it has parked itself," he says -- "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought" JFK _______________________________________________ nfb-talk mailing list nfb-talk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfb-talk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From kingettr at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 15:04:38 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 10:04:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516be86b.07a4ec0a.0fd9.ffffa7c9@mx.google.com> References: <516be86b.07a4ec0a.0fd9.ffffa7c9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <516C1706.40600@gmail.com> as of now they run on both, depending on the car model. From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 15:28:14 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:28:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> Because the NFB car was a proof of concept campaign, and the Google car is a real mainstream product expected to hit the market and receive widespread adoption. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:12 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Why are we all wanting the Google car? > The NFB has its own car! > http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:34 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Rania, > > Us therapists and our traveling... well, future therapist in my case, > but still. :) > It would be so awesome to tell an employer when they ask how I'd be > able to get from one hospital or school to the next, "Yes, I'm blind, > but there are these amazing self-driving cars Google made and I have > one. I'd be happy to go wherever the clients are." I would love that > type of flexibility! > > On 4/15/13, Rania Ismail LMT wrote: >> I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to >> depend >> on a cab to get from one place to another. >> I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think having >> a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at two >> places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. >> I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out having >> to set a pick up time with the cab. >> Rania, >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It >> wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. >> With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do >> home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job >> at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just >> make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and >> others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive >> themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would >> absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less >> wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would >> be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than >> sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus >> twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when >> the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. >> >> Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal >> with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher >> gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours >> later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a >> drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been >> fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from >> the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to >> mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was >> quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the >> expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that >> one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his >> cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he >> used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me >> feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with >> that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because >> they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if >> given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and >> drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather >> stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the >> more practical way to go. >> >> On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives and >>> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public >> transit >>> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over >> time, >>> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >>> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. >> Less >>> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we >> should >>> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even while >>> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income doing >>> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of >> them >>> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can be >>> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem solving. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" >> wrote: >>> >>>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>>> >>>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches these >>>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> Aleeha, >>>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>>> to >>>> drive in public. >>>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the distant >>>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>>> public >>>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>>> >>>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a >> lot >>>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer experience >>>> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level jobs >>>> but >>>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers with >>>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not think >>>> are >>>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not >> only >>>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation of >>>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such as >>>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to mention >>>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? For >>>> real, these are barriers. >>>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that >> people >>>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>>> gaurantee >>>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and aquaintances >>>> does >>>> not gaurantee you a job. >>>> >>>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me experience >>>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but if >> I >>>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had internships >>>> in >>>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>>> >>>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even exists >>>> for >>>> the public. >>>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>>> employed. It could be you one day. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>>> us to drive on the roads. >>>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>>> may be younger than most of us. >>>> Thank you, >>>> Aleeha >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>>> like >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>>> one >>>>> if >>>>> >>>>> given a choice. >>>>> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>> paratransit >>>>> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>>> to >>>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> car. >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self >>>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of >> us >>>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit >> and >>>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>>> rage, >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>>> it >>>>> when obstacles arise. >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>>> to >>>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn >>>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>>> pedestrians >>>>> who >>>>> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>>> is >>>>> on >>>>> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> distracted >>>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs >>>>> to >>>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected >>>>> hazards. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and >>>>> you >>>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't >> want >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>>> but >>>>> we >>>>> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why >>>>> not do it? >>>>> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead >>>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where >>>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd >>>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>>> before >>>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of >>>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>>> pay >>>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater >>>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can >>>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>>> think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail >> .com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 15:45:21 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:45:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Again, to reiterate what was said, two years is a long time to not hear anything about the project, and Google seems further ahdead. If the car is mainstreamed and able to be used by sighted people as well it will most likely be less expensive too... think of the comparision of cost between the KNFB reader and the IPhone, for instance. A car is much more complex to create than an mp3 player too, so even if ideas were leaked I think a company would be hard pressed to get a team of engineers together and catch up to either NFB or google. Like I said, I support NFB wholeheartedly, but I just see the Google car as a more viable option. On 4/15/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > Because the NFB car was a proof of concept campaign, and the Google car is a > real mainstream product expected to hit the market and receive widespread > adoption. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:12 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Why are we all wanting the Google car? >> The NFB has its own car! >> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton >> [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:34 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Rania, >> >> Us therapists and our traveling... well, future therapist in my case, >> but still. :) >> It would be so awesome to tell an employer when they ask how I'd be >> able to get from one hospital or school to the next, "Yes, I'm blind, >> but there are these amazing self-driving cars Google made and I have >> one. I'd be happy to go wherever the clients are." I would love that >> type of flexibility! >> >> On 4/15/13, Rania Ismail LMT wrote: >>> I would love to be able to drive my self places so I wouldn't have to >>> depend >>> on a cab to get from one place to another. >>> I do have a friend pick me up or my sister when they can but I think >>> having >>> a car would make me more independent. Maybe I would be able to work at >>> two >>> places and see more client's instead of only working at one place. >>> I would also like the freedom to go ware I want when I want with out >>> having >>> to set a pick up time with the cab. >>> Rania, >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>> Shelton >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:52 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> For me in terms of employment, a car would be a tremendous asset. It >>> wouldn't limit me to staying in one spot to have clients come to me. >>> With a car someone in my field of work can be contracted out to do >>> home visits or to assist in hospice settings in addition to their job >>> at a hospital, school, or other fascility where they can stay and just >>> make rounds. A car presents opportunities to me, and for me and >>> others who's careers would benefit from having the ability to drive >>> themselves it would be an investment. In this case, it would >>> absolutely pay for itself, even gas because time would be far less >>> wasted, and I would get more fulfillment out of it because there would >>> be more time spent helping people and doing what I love to do than >>> sitting at a bus stop/walking to the next stop/sitting on the bus >>> twiddling my thumbs... and we won't even talk about the hassle of when >>> the driver screws up and you don't get off where you wanted to. >>> >>> Employment aside, I'd also like my own car so I don't have to deal >>> with cabs. Once I called a cab on a Sunday night and the dispatcher >>> gave me an ETA of 30 to 45 minutes. The driver showed up 2 hours >>> later. The car smelled of vomit, which I'm assuming was because a >>> drunk person was riding before me and the smell still had not been >>> fully cleaned out of the fabrics in the car, and I'm pretty sure from >>> the feel of the car that he was speeding on the highway. Not to >>> mention that I asked him to take a route through downtown which was >>> quicker and a little less expensive, but he took me down the >>> expressway regardless... he did not get a good tip from me for that >>> one. And when we were in the car the cab driver kept answering his >>> cell phone because I guess he didn't have one of those radios so he >>> used the cell... but that coupled with how fast we were going made me >>> feel really uncomfortable. To me the buses I've ridden along with >>> that cab experience have turned me away from public transit because >>> they're usually shady. I can use it and would if necessary, but if >>> given the choice I would rather save the time and frustration and >>> drive myself. I respect the choice of those who say they would rather >>> stick with public transit, but for myself and others a car seems the >>> more practical way to go. >>> >>> On 4/14/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: >>>> Focus less on the barriers, and far, far more on all the alternatives >>>> and >>>> solutions. Unless you're receiving some serious discounts on public >>> transit >>>> and never use a cab, owning an autonomous car will pay for itself over >>> time, >>>> even with the need for insurance and fuel. Consider the cost of missed >>>> opportunities, not just the cost of transit alone. Also, time is money. >>> Less >>>> time walking and waiting means more time to generate revenue. And we >>> should >>>> never underestimate the earning potential of self employment, even >>>> while >>>> we're looking for traditional jobs. I've earned significant income >>>> doing >>>> electronics retail on eBay with two blind business partners, and one of >>> them >>>> now has a software startup of his own that got him off of SSI. It can >>>> be >>>> done if you want to work for it. It just takes creative problem >>>> solving. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 14, 2013, at 6:27 PM, "Peter Donahue" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good evening Ashley and everyone, >>>>> >>>>> But not if we create the kind of incomes to allow us to perches >>>>> these >>>>> vehicles and a whole lot more. Figure it out! >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:29 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Aleeha, >>>>> Thank you. I don't think we are even close either to having such a car >>>>> to >>>>> drive in public. >>>>> So, really we are arguing among ourselves about something in the >>>>> distant >>>>> future. And, step back and think. Cars cost more money than taking >>>>> public >>>>> transit and this car will be more than the average car. >>>>> >>>>> We have so so many barriers in employment now. You will have to save a >>> lot >>>>> for such a car and you can only save money if you got a job. >>>>> Getting a job is not easy and made worse in the economy. If you get >>>>> interviewed, even under schedule A in the government, you got other >>>>> competors against you with more job experience, more computer >>>>> experience >>>>> perhaps. It's a catch 22; you need more experience for entry level >>>>> jobs >>>>> but >>>>> you need a job to cultivate experience. >>>>> Yes we can work, but as I'm finding there are a number of barriers >>>>> with >>>>> software accessibility to deal with on the job. Jobs you would not >>>>> think >>>>> are >>>>> visual are visual. For instance, many communications jobs require not >>> only >>>>> the writing of pitch letters and press releases, but the compilation >>>>> of >>>>> photos with adobe end design or using graphical layout software such >>>>> as >>>>> microsoft publisher or photoshop to publish pr material. Not to >>>>> mention >>>>> social media wich is semi accessible. Can you say the word captcha? >>>>> For >>>>> real, these are barriers. >>>>> I'm really tired of people saying they'll just get employed or that >>> people >>>>> who cannot find work are making excuses. Having a degree does not >>>>> gaurantee >>>>> you a job. Having excellent references from professors and >>>>> aquaintances >>>>> does >>>>> not gaurantee you a job. >>>>> >>>>> I've been hoping to find at least a part time job to give me >>>>> experience >>>>> before I go to grad school; actually not sure I'll do grad school but >>>>> if >>> I >>>>> do, I'd sure like to work before grad school. And yes, I had >>>>> internships >>>>> in >>>>> the government and one nonprofit. still not enough experience. >>>>> >>>>> I'd suggest having a job before getting a google car if one even >>>>> exists >>>>> for >>>>> the public. >>>>> Also, try not to make sweeping generalizations about why people aren't >>>>> employed. It could be you one day. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Aleeha Dudley >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:50 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> I hesitate to stick my nose into this one, but it seems that this >>>>> thread has provoked my own strong opinions, both about the Google car >>>>> and about the attitude of some list members. >>>>> First, I will say this. In my opinion, I would drive the Google >>>>> car if there was a way to provide a failsafe of sorts that would >>>>> activate should a malfunction in the system occur. I do not believe >>>>> that we are even close to having these cars in public, let alone to >>>>> knocking down the proverbial barrier that exists between the blind and >>>>> sighted communities which would allow them to even consider permitting >>>>> us to drive on the roads. >>>>> The second part of my message concerns the language some people >>>>> are choosing to use on this list, as well as the hostile attitudes >>>>> that exist amoung some. If you choose to curse, please take it off >>>>> list. I for one am offended by some of the language on this list and >>>>> feel that many others are as well. We are supposed to be a community >>>>> of blind students assisting one another in our educational pursuits >>>>> and issues. With the attitude I have observed, it concerns me that >>>>> some students might be afraid to come forward, fearing being shut down >>>>> or criticized. As Kaiti has stated before, this list archive is >>>>> PUBLIC! That means anyone can find it and read it on the Internet. Not >>>>> so concerning until you think about the fact that most employers >>>>> looking for a valued employee will do a web search and background >>>>> check. This means that they can and will find these posts with these >>>>> offensive words and will probably think of you as a less valuable >>>>> candidate for the job, or perhaps dismiss your application altogether >>>>> if they see such language in your messages. For your own job security, >>>>> I suggest this language and negative attitude tone down. Please >>>>> consider other list members who may not condone such language or who >>>>> may be younger than most of us. >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Aleeha >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems >>>>>> like >>>>>> you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy >>>>>> one >>>>>> if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and >>>>>> safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want >>>>>> to >>>>>> hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is >>>>>> self >>>>>> serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front >>>>>> of >>> us >>>>>> when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit >>> and >>>>>> you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode >>>>>> rage, >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override >>>>>> it >>>>>> when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due >>>>>> to >>>>>> some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly >>>>>> turn >>>>>> without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, >>>>>> pedestrians >>>>>> who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal >>>>>> is >>>>>> on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>> distracted >>>>>> drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >>>>>> needs >>>>>> to >>>>>> see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon >>>>>> unexpected >>>>>> hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead >>>>>> and >>>>>> you >>>>>> never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't >>> want >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, >>>>>> but >>>>>> we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses >>>>>> I >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to >>>>>> get >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's >>>>>> bus >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, >>>>>> but >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>> boomerang >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, >>>>>> or >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>> self-serving >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think >>>>>> not >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the >>>>>> high >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so >>>>>> why >>>>>> not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>>> instead >>>>>>> of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the >>>>>>> driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in >>>>>>> chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL >>>>>>> where >>>>>>> there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, >>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>> much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said >>>>>>> before >>>>>>> in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about >>>>>>> driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to >>>>>>> pay >>>>>>> for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office >>>>>>> quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have >>>>>>> greater >>>>>>> chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>>>> think? LOL! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail >>> .com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kingettr at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:05:44 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 12:05:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the google car. In-Reply-To: <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> In reading this thread this morning, there's a lot of support for a car that isn't even hinting at what stage in the development it's resting on. Someone said that the car will be ready by 2016 but that can be dismissed simply, because, the fact that the NFB are not even releasing any information about the car and also about the technology because, apparently, they don't want to be like apple and have their stuff taken. If this is the case then how would you know that the technology will be ready in 2016? It doesn't make sense. If there's no more press releases about the subject, news coverage, updates on the email list, and yes I've been subscribed for about a month, TV coverage, anything. It's as if this car was like an amazing firework that faded away over time.so, if there's no progress indicator as to how far the technology is then, no, the car will not be ready by 2016. No one knows when this car will be ready. As far as safety, I have a few things to point out. I've seen this car in action. It's stunning, amazing, and epic, but it’s prone to a lot of accidents simply by the sheer notion that it's human operated. Plus, instead of having one piece of technology to worry about failing, the driver as to be aware of everything. This fosters greater responsibility, yes, but that comes bundled with an unseen price. For those who don't know, I'll talk about the car. And the challenge and weigh the consider and pros, my opinions, of course, based in observation alone. The challengeis not the development of an autonomous car that drives a blind person around; the “challenge” is to develop a nonvisual interface for a car that can convey real-time information about driving conditions to the blind so that we can use our own capacity to think and react to interpret these data and maneuver a car safely. You know how on this list even some blind people were like oh my god I don’t want to be alongside of a blind person driving! There could be accidents with the Google car! Wouldn't this car present even more accidents? The sheer idea of the Google car was to create polite software that follows the rules of the road, keeping people safe. I don’t want to or don't need to tell you all about the kind of technology that this sports because I've posted many, many, many, many, many, many news articles and videos on the subject as well as videos, even a really long documentary on the car. In the NFB car, as I have said, the driver has to be aware of everything… even, say pedestrian’s etc. machine can act way faster than man. You know all those scenarios that people posted here about worrying about people running out into the street, etc.? Did you all not read the last news article I posted? The car stopped when a squirrel skittered onto the street. With the NFB car that information needs to be conveyed to the driver quickly enough for the driver to react. The Google car reacts instantly, and it did. As I have said, the NFB car’s drivers rely on information that HAS to be conveyed to them so that they can make decisions, but what if not everything is conveyed to them at a very crucial point, say, when a squirrel skitters out onto the road. Amazingly, I got to wave my press pass like a drunken monkey to have a close up look at the car. I also kept an eye out for good-looking black men but I didn't see any. When will I ever find a beautiful husband? Sigh. I want to have someone who looks like Denzel Washington! Ahem! Anyway… A vibrating seat, called SpeedStrip, told Riccobono whether to speed up or slow down depending on what part of the seat rumbled. Gloves with tiny vibrating motors, called DriveGrip, let Riccobono know what to do with the steering wheel. What if one of these malfunctions but the rest work fine, and someone runs out into the street before the driver can react. With the Google car, this doesn't happen, correction, didn't. Plus, as many news articles say, there's failsafe in place when something malfunctions. The issue with the blind car, again, is the reaction time of the driver and this is a huge issue because humans are not the same. Now, onto actually driving. If the NFB car is prominent then there are a whole slew of things that will have to be made. Driving tests specifically, and also test courses would need to be built that specifically test the adaptive technology in the car and a more unique driving test specifically for the blind, not to mention a track. With the Google car, this isn't needed. Sure, I’d believe you'd have to be licensed to use the car but it will be a much more streamlined process. Also, what if you’re missing a glove, etc. you can't drive, can you? Sighted people can just hop in their cars and go. the NFB car has to be geared up to go. What if you’re disorganized and loose a glove? You have everything else but you don't have all the technology needed to drive, and you'd have to call a cab anyway. Okay maybe not just a glove but you get my point right? Now, about any route, say, to school, In order to actually drive this route, the blind driver needs to have a thorough understanding of their immediate environment. You'd have to map out the route before you get there. With the Google car, this isn't even an issue. You'd just hop in the car and go. By the way, the best thing about having a car that operates on cloud technology, you could actually control the car via phone. You don't have to be in the car. This is incredible, meaning, before you leave, you can input where you want to go as you’re sitting on your couch. Something that's not in the Google car that I believe should be, is something to tell you how long it will take you to get there. I don't know why Google didn't think of that. For movies, etc. so you'd know what time you'd have to leave, etc. The software that's on the Google car is cloud based, everything, so it will update wirelessly. This is badass, if you ask me. Its maps will update in real time, almost. This is also a bad thing, because, as of now, if it's heavy snow or heavy rain then you can't drive the car. But the software will be updated. How would you update the GPS in the NFB car? Google is thinking about easy future implementation, hence having a car that operates via the cloud and wireless technology. This will make upgrades easier. You won’t have to get a new model unless the engine fails or something like that. As of now there's no audible interface to start the car but there's a keyboard command, shift X, if you were listening in the last video that I posted about the BBC documentary involving the Google car. This technology will accommodate the blind fully, with more work, because, hell, a blind person has driven it! That shows me that Google is definitely thinking about the blind driving this car in the future. There aren’t a lot of road laws that would need to be in place. With the NFB car you'd have to take into drinking while driving, etc., accompanying the blindness. With the Google car you can be as drunk as you want to be and drive back home or just sit back and let the car drive you home. Laws wouldn't have to be made at all, really, unless for underage drivers and such. Humans are greedy creatures. The Google car isn't pushy. To prove this, I would say watch the videos about the Google car found below this huge message that I'm writing out. Humans merge so they can pass others, etc., thus, more roads would need to be built because the instinct of us people is to just merge onto the next lane and pass. The Google car is courteous, allowing people to pass, merging behind cars to free up road space, etc. of course, you can already set the GPS to take you the fastest route or… whatever option there is… laughing out loud. I want to talk about theft, just because absolutely no one has covered this before. With the NFB car if someone steals equipment, you can't drive it can you? You’d have to get it toad, all because you were missing the seat strips. Yes, people steal weird stuff. It happens. Also, if you’re going to a job interview, or something, where would you put all that gear after you get in there? You forget, sighted people can just hop in a car and go, thus stealing your car without even needing any special gloves. Since the Google car, right now, starts with a hotkey on a computer keyboard it wouldn't be hard to implement fingerprint technology to make sure this doesn't happen. By the way, I don’t want to sit for an extra 7 minutes making sure all my gear is on. This is just nit-picking, and doesn't make a logical argument but I'm going to say it anyway. If I'm on a date with some gorgeous guy I want to hold his hand while I'm driving with him. It’s cute and romantic. In the NFB car I wouldn't be able to do that, thus, I’d be pouting all the way to the restaurant. Seriously if you all, if you had a gorgeous man sitting next to you wouldn’t you want to hold his hand? LOL. The Google car allows me to do this with no problem. I want to touch my sweet chocolate dang it! LOL. I am a young man, after all, I have needs! Ahem, moving on. You won’t be able to control the NFB car via phone. With the Google car you will. You can have it drop you off and then park, and then swig by to pick you up. Since the car will operate via computer, there's no question that will be a feature. What if you have to take a lot of equipment for your job? You can't eat and drive in the NFB car, etc. I believe I have said everything that I want to say. For the rest, let me repeat multiple times, watch the videos I posted about the BBC and the blind driver driving the Google car. I've included them below, by the way. I've posted enough news articles about the subject but if you need more I'll send it along. I seriously don't understand why the NFB are not behind this. This is the definition of a new kind of independence. The NFB shouldn’t be trying to push their car out to people because they made their blind drivable car. If the NFB is all about equality then we as NFB people, and yes ACB people too, should back this car without question, not trying to be celebrities because we have also made a car. The more support from all caps, the sooner this will become a sweet, sweet reality. See below for the videos. Google car. BBC video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJU7GgBMmY Google's self-driving car. Cell phone shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unS_WdnyDQY CNN test-drives Google’s "self-driving car" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpPPVvGqTY Google's Self-Driving Car Coming Soon? 2013. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2pRwcw8ew Blind man driving the Google car with audio description. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ From ALewis at nfb.org Mon Apr 15 17:34:18 2013 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:34:18 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Legislative Update Message-ID: <72D51A25A403F249A0FC4A94A0D9640D4966BA54@CH1PRD0710MB380.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Federationists: There are now 30 co-sponsors of the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act of 2013 (HR 831). We welcome Rep Perlmutter [CO-7], Rep Brady [PA-1], Rep Takano [CA-41], Rep Fortenberry [NE-1], Rep DeGette [CO-1], Rep Cummings [MD-7], and Rep Horsford [NV-4] as newly added champions. Have you signed the online petition calling for the repeal of Section 14(c) of the Fair labor Standards Act? Have you encouraged others to sign? Visit http://www.nfb.org/fair-wages-petition www.nfb.org/fair-wages-petition%20%20 We must keep getting the word out. Take the time to read and share the following blog post on the Commensurate Wage Fallacy. The Commensurate Wage Fallacy https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/commensurate-wage-fallacy Submitted by alewis on Mon, 04/15/2013 - 09:36 Blog Date: Monday, April 15, 2013 By Anil Lewis Under Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act, a flawed formula has been used for years to calculate the commensurate "piece rate" wage for workers with disabilities. This formula, based on average wages and survey data, works mathematically, but fails the common sense test. My twelve-year-old stepson asked me the following question from his math homework: If Johnny can run one mile in two minutes, how fast can Johnny run two miles? He knew that the expected answer was four minutes. However, he also had the common sense to know that Johnny would get tired, and it would take Johnny more time to run each consecutive mile. I told him to put four minutes as the answer. He got an "A" on the homework, but he did not understand why he got an "A" for the wrong answer. I validated his common sense and applauded the fact that at twelve years old, he understood the root of the commensurate wage fallacy. The commensurate "subminimum" wage formula used by over three thousand employers to determine how much they should pay their workers with disabilities is based on the same flawed logic as the math problem. Before we get to the real commensurate wage fallacy, we must discuss how the prevailing wage is determined. A subminimum wage employer must conduct an annual wage survey of private sector jobs in the employer's geographic area that are similar to the jobs being performed by the workers with disabilities. Then the employer takes the average of at least three of these industry wage rates to determine the hourly prevailing wage for the job. For example, if three private sector employees are being paid $8.25, $8.30, and $8.35 respectively, the average wage rate of $8.30 would be the prevailing wage used in the commensurate wage formula. The math is correct, but common sense tells you that the subminimum wage employer gets to shop around to determine which industry wage rates to use, so if there is a private sector employee being paid $9.00 for a similar job, there is no requirement for the employer to use this higher wage in the calculation. It is more likely that there are no similar jobs in the community, in which case the employer should use the federal minimum wage of $7.25 (or the higher state minimum wage, if one applies) as the prevailing wage. Some subminimum wage employers illegally use less than this amount; and with little to no oversight, this exploitation goes unaddressed for years. The most convoluted and manipulative step used to determine the commensurate wage is for the employer to conduct a time study. The employer chooses an experienced nondisabled worker to perform the job for twenty minutes. Ideally, this is done for at least three cycles by the same person or three different people. This provides three productivity rates that are then averaged to determine the average "piece rate." Therefore, if thirty-eight items are produced in the first cycle, forty items are produced in the second, and forty-two items are produced in the third, the benchmark would be set for the workers with disabilities to produce forty items in twenty minutes, or two items per minute. This means the expectation is for the workers with disabilities to produce 120 items per hour in order to be paid the $8.30 prevailing wage. Again, the math is sound, but common sense tells you that the employer can conduct many more time studies and choose the results to manipulate the commensurate wage outcome, ignoring those time studies in which less than thirty-eight items are produced. Essentially, the employer can conduct as many time studies as necessary to justify the wage that the employer would like to pay for the job. Common sense also tells you that it is unfair to set a productivity benchmark for an entire work day using only a twenty-minute time study. Think of it as another version of my stepson's math problem: if Johnny can produce 120 items in an hour, how many can he produce in two hours? My twelve-year-old stepson knew the answer. He realized that Johnny would get tired, and his productivity would decrease over time. The commensurate wage professionals state that they take all of this into consideration by providing a 15 percent time allowance for Personal time, Fatigue, and Delay (the PF&D factor). This is calculated to be nine minutes per hour, which many employers round to ten minutes per hour. Therefore, the productivity expectation set for the workers with disabilities under the earlier scenario would be for them to produce one hundred items per hour in order to earn $8.30. This is more commonly stated to be a piece rate, where the workers with disabilities are paid eighty-three cents for each item they produce. Although the PF&D allowance may bring the productivity expectation in line with the worker's reasonable ability to produce over time, this cannot be considered an adequate adjustment for personal time, fatigue, and delay inclusively. Most subminimum wage employers do not encourage the PF&D allowance to be used for breaks. Although most employers are required to provide nondisabled employees a ten-minute paid rest period for every four hours worked, the sheltered subminimum wage workshops are excluded from this requirement. In fact, the ability to work without a break is presented by the subminimum wage employer as a benefit to the workers with disabilities, who are encouraged to work as much as possible in order to earn as much as possible. This type of pressure produces stress; the stress results in mistakes; and mistakes result in defective products that the workers do not get paid for producing. Delay is also out of the control of the worker. The workers cannot produce anything if the employer is delayed in providing them materials to produce the item, and unlike the nondisabled workers that get paid an hourly rate, the workers with disabilities do not get paid when they are not producing products. The legal requirement to pay for down time is at the discretion of the employer, and if an employer does not provide production supplies in a timely manner, the workers with disabilities can be left idle for much more than ten minutes without the supplies to produce anything, thus earning nothing. The unspoken math is that there are currently over three hundred thousand people with disabilities being paid wages below the federal minimum. Specifically, 50 percent of these workers receive less than half the federal minimum wage, and 25 percent receive less than one dollar per hour, some as low as three cents per hour. The common sense truth is that most of these individuals are already productive enough to earn the federal minimum wage; they are just victims of the flawed wage formula. Others could be productive enough to earn the federal minimum wage if provided the proper training and support, but will never receive either the training or support while segregated in a subminimum wage work environment. Those individuals being paid less than one dollar per hour are truly not ready for work, but the subminimum wage employers assert that these workers are being afforded an opportunity to experience the tangible and intangible benefits of work. The workers with disabilities get the extremely intangible benefit of subminimum wages. The executives get the true tangible benefit from the public and private dollars meant to support the workers with disabilities, but used instead to support the six-figure salaries of the executives. The subminimum wage employers are essentially getting an "A" for the wrong answer. The fallacy here is that the workers with disabilities are supposedly being paid based on their productivity. If the employers truly believe that the commensurate wage model is adequate and fair for workers with disabilities, why not use the commensurate wage formula to calculate the wages for all of the sheltered workshop employees, including the executives? My twelve-year-old stepson would know the answer to this question as well. Visit www.nfb.org/fair-wages to get more information, and add your name to our online petition to help us stop the perpetuation of the commensurate wage fallacy. Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Advocacy and Policy "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" http://www.nfb.org/fairwages NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org twitter: @anillife From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:43:35 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:43:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the google car. In-Reply-To: <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53EDAFF3-C261-438F-A7A8-AA6517551258@gmail.com> It ws a proof of concept! It was never meant to be a car you'd eventually see on the market. Only to demonstrate to the public the potential of modern engineering in regards to liberating people with disabilities and get engineers, developers and the public in general thinking along the lines of truly accessible design. It doesn't compete with the Google car because it was never intended to. What it does is lay the foundation for a sighted populace who will more easily accept the idea of blind folks operating their own vehicles or doing countless other seemingly impossible things. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > In reading this thread this morning, there's a lot of support for a car that isn't even hinting at what stage in the development it's resting on. Someone said that the car will be ready by 2016 but that can be dismissed simply, because, the fact that the NFB are not even releasing any information about the car and also about the technology because, apparently, they don't want to be like apple and have their stuff taken. If this is the case then how would you know that the technology will be ready in 2016? It doesn't make sense. If there's no more press releases about the subject, news coverage, updates on the email list, and yes I've been subscribed for about a month, TV coverage, anything. It's as if this car was like an amazing firework that faded away over time.so, if there's no progress indicator as to how far the technology is then, no, the car will not be ready by 2016. No one knows when this car will be ready. > > As far as safety, I have a few things to point out. I've seen this car in action. It's stunning, amazing, and epic, but it’s prone to a lot of accidents simply by the sheer notion that it's human operated. Plus, instead of having one piece of technology to worry about failing, the driver as to be aware of everything. This fosters greater responsibility, yes, but that comes bundled with an unseen price. For those who don't know, I'll talk about the car. And the challenge and weigh the consider and pros, my opinions, of course, based in observation alone. > > The challengeis not the development of an autonomous car that drives a blind person around; the “challenge” is to develop a nonvisual interface for a car that can convey real-time information about driving conditions to the blind so that we can use our own capacity to think and react to interpret these data and maneuver a car safely. > > You know how on this list even some blind people were like oh my god I don’t want to be alongside of a blind person driving! There could be accidents with the Google car! Wouldn't this car present even more accidents? The sheer idea of the Google car was to create polite software that follows the rules of the road, keeping people safe. I don’t want to or don't need to tell you all about the kind of technology that this sports because I've posted many, many, many, many, many, many news articles and videos on the subject as well as videos, even a really long documentary on the car. In the NFB car, as I have said, the driver has to be aware of everything… even, say pedestrian’s etc. machine can act way faster than man. You know all those scenarios that people posted here about worrying about people running out into the street, etc.? Did you all not read the last news article I posted? The car stopped when a squirrel skittered onto the street. With the NFB car that information needs to be conveyed to the driver quickly enough for the driver to react. The Google car reacts instantly, and it did. As I have said, the NFB car’s drivers rely on information that HAS to be conveyed to them so that they can make decisions, but what if not everything is conveyed to them at a very crucial point, say, when a squirrel skitters out onto the road. Amazingly, I got to wave my press pass like a drunken monkey to have a close up look at the car. > > I also kept an eye out for good-looking black men but I didn't see any. When will I ever find a beautiful husband? Sigh. I want to have someone who looks like Denzel Washington! Ahem! Anyway… > > A vibrating seat, called SpeedStrip, told Riccobono whether to speed up or slow down depending on what part of the seat rumbled. Gloves with tiny vibrating motors, called DriveGrip, let Riccobono know what to do with the steering wheel. What if one of these malfunctions but the rest work fine, and someone runs out into the street before the driver can react. With the Google car, this doesn't happen, correction, didn't. Plus, as many news articles say, there's failsafe in place when something malfunctions. The issue with the blind car, again, is the reaction time of the driver and this is a huge issue because humans are not the same. > > Now, onto actually driving. If the NFB car is prominent then there are a whole slew of things that will have to be made. Driving tests specifically, and also test courses would need to be built that specifically test the adaptive technology in the car and a more unique driving test specifically for the blind, not to mention a track. With the Google car, this isn't needed. Sure, I’d believe you'd have to be licensed to use the car but it will be a much more streamlined process. > > Also, what if you’re missing a glove, etc. you can't drive, can you? Sighted people can just hop in their cars and go. the NFB car has to be geared up to go. What if you’re disorganized and loose a glove? You have everything else but you don't have all the technology needed to drive, and you'd have to call a cab anyway. Okay maybe not just a glove but you get my point right? > > Now, about any route, say, to school, In order to actually drive this route, the blind driver needs to have a thorough understanding of their immediate environment. You'd have to map out the route before you get there. With the Google car, this isn't even an issue. You'd just hop in the car and go. By the way, the best thing about having a car that operates on cloud technology, you could actually control the car via phone. You don't have to be in the car. This is incredible, meaning, before you leave, you can input where you want to go as you’re sitting on your couch. > > Something that's not in the Google car that I believe should be, is something to tell you how long it will take you to get there. I don't know why Google didn't think of that. For movies, etc. so you'd know what time you'd have to leave, etc. > > The software that's on the Google car is cloud based, everything, so it will update wirelessly. This is badass, if you ask me. Its maps will update in real time, almost. This is also a bad thing, because, as of now, if it's heavy snow or heavy rain then you can't drive the car. But the software will be updated. How would you update the GPS in the NFB car? Google is thinking about easy future implementation, hence having a car that operates via the cloud and wireless technology. This will make upgrades easier. You won’t have to get a new model unless the engine fails or something like that. > > As of now there's no audible interface to start the car but there's a keyboard command, shift X, if you were listening in the last video that I posted about the BBC documentary involving the Google car. This technology will accommodate the blind fully, with more work, because, hell, a blind person has driven it! That shows me that Google is definitely thinking about the blind driving this car in the future. > > There aren’t a lot of road laws that would need to be in place. With the NFB car you'd have to take into drinking while driving, etc., accompanying the blindness. With the Google car you can be as drunk as you want to be and drive back home or just sit back and let the car drive you home. Laws wouldn't have to be made at all, really, unless for underage drivers and such. > > Humans are greedy creatures. The Google car isn't pushy. To prove this, I would say watch the videos about the Google car found below this huge message that I'm writing out. Humans merge so they can pass others, etc., thus, more roads would need to be built because the instinct of us people is to just merge onto the next lane and pass. The Google car is courteous, allowing people to pass, merging behind cars to free up road space, etc. of course, you can already set the GPS to take you the fastest route or… whatever option there is… laughing out loud. > > I want to talk about theft, just because absolutely no one has covered this before. With the NFB car if someone steals equipment, you can't drive it can you? You’d have to get it toad, all because you were missing the seat strips. Yes, people steal weird stuff. It happens. Also, if you’re going to a job interview, or something, where would you put all that gear after you get in there? You forget, sighted people can just hop in a car and go, thus stealing your car without even needing any special gloves. Since the Google car, right now, starts with a hotkey on a computer keyboard it wouldn't be hard to implement fingerprint technology to make sure this doesn't happen. By the way, I don’t want to sit for an extra 7 minutes making sure all my gear is on. > > This is just nit-picking, and doesn't make a logical argument but I'm going to say it anyway. If I'm on a date with some gorgeous guy I want to hold his hand while I'm driving with him. It’s cute and romantic. In the NFB car I wouldn't be able to do that, thus, I’d be pouting all the way to the restaurant. Seriously if you all, if you had a gorgeous man sitting next to you wouldn’t you want to hold his hand? LOL. The Google car allows me to do this with no problem. I want to touch my sweet chocolate dang it! LOL. I am a young man, after all, I have needs! Ahem, moving on. > > You won’t be able to control the NFB car via phone. With the Google car you will. You can have it drop you off and then park, and then swig by to pick you up. Since the car will operate via computer, there's no question that will be a feature. > > What if you have to take a lot of equipment for your job? You can't eat and drive in the NFB car, etc. > > I believe I have said everything that I want to say. For the rest, let me repeat multiple times, watch the videos I posted about the BBC and the blind driver driving the Google car. I've included them below, by the way. I've posted enough news articles about the subject but if you need more I'll send it along. > > I seriously don't understand why the NFB are not behind this. This is the definition of a new kind of independence. The NFB shouldn’t be trying to push their car out to people because they made their blind drivable car. If the NFB is all about equality then we as NFB people, and yes ACB people too, should back this car without question, not trying to be celebrities because we have also made a car. The more support from all caps, the sooner this will become a sweet, sweet reality. See below for the videos. > > Google car. BBC video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJU7GgBMmY > > Google's self-driving car. Cell phone shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unS_WdnyDQY > > CNN test-drives Google’s "self-driving car" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpPPVvGqTY > > Google's Self-Driving Car Coming Soon? 2013. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2pRwcw8ew > > Blind man driving the Google car with audio description. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:49:52 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:49:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read Message-ID: All, I am attaching and pasting in the body of this email, a list of guidelines that we should all follow when posting to this list. I'd appreciate it if we can all make an attempt to comply. Feel free to email me with any questions. Thanks. NABS List Guidelines 1. This Listserv is a great forum in which we can all express our opinions. Which in turns, means that we will inevitably disagree. However, when responding to a post, always be respectful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and personal attacks and degrading comments will not be tolerated. 2. All posts must be appropriate. The Listserv is opened to students of all ages, from middle school to post graduate, it is also opened to blindness professionals and other interested parties. Thus, when posting on the listserv remember to use the appropriate language. Profanity is not appropriate. Furthermore, the content should be well thought out. 3. In the last year, many people have taken to posting one liners to the list. This habit creates unnecessary clutter. Often, there are several threads going on at once, and one might feel compel to answer to each of those individually. When this happens, please make sure that your post says more than, “I agree” or “good idea”. When responding to a post, please make sure that there is actual substance to that post, which will further the conversation. To go along with that, when someone expresses a differing opinion, and you have already voiced your thought, please do not send repeated posts on how you stand by your opinion unless you have more to add to that. Threads that grow into the 70s and 80s in posts, should not be half made up of “that’s what I think, like I said before”, and “I stand by what I said earlier”. Rule of thumb is to post in a way to further the conversation. 4. When you would like to write someone off list, do so. You do not have to write one liners to every person you’d like to email off list. If you develop a conversation with that person, that’s great, if they feel they do not want to respond that is their right too. 5. Stay on topic. There are many times when informational emails are sent out to the list for distribution, these often include, but are not limited to: survey, announcements, ads, etc. If you have a moral objection to said informational emails, and it is relevant to blind students, please start a new thread. A lot of times people are so overwhelmed by the response to a particular informational email, that they cannot find the original post, and so someone who might benefit from it has difficulty getting at the information. 6. Finally, if at any point Mr. Whalen, who is the NABS President, Mr. David Andrews, who is the master for all NFB-net listservs, or myself, say that it is not ok to continue a thread, that thread should stop. Feel free to email us telling us why you think it should continue if you think it should and we will be more than happy to listen. -- Mary Fernandez List Moderator "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS List Guidelines.doc Type: application/msword Size: 25088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:03:41 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:03:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017801ce393a$662748a0$3275d9e0$@gmail.com> What would you consider as well thought out? What if I am simply expressing support or agreement with a post? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 1:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read All, I am attaching and pasting in the body of this email, a list of guidelines that we should all follow when posting to this list. I'd appreciate it if we can all make an attempt to comply. Feel free to email me with any questions. Thanks. NABS List Guidelines 1. This Listserv is a great forum in which we can all express our opinions. Which in turns, means that we will inevitably disagree. However, when responding to a post, always be respectful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and personal attacks and degrading comments will not be tolerated. 2. All posts must be appropriate. The Listserv is opened to students of all ages, from middle school to post graduate, it is also opened to blindness professionals and other interested parties. Thus, when posting on the listserv remember to use the appropriate language. Profanity is not appropriate. Furthermore, the content should be well thought out. 3. In the last year, many people have taken to posting one liners to the list. This habit creates unnecessary clutter. Often, there are several threads going on at once, and one might feel compel to answer to each of those individually. When this happens, please make sure that your post says more than, "I agree" or "good idea". When responding to a post, please make sure that there is actual substance to that post, which will further the conversation. To go along with that, when someone expresses a differing opinion, and you have already voiced your thought, please do not send repeated posts on how you stand by your opinion unless you have more to add to that. Threads that grow into the 70s and 80s in posts, should not be half made up of "that's what I think, like I said before", and "I stand by what I said earlier". Rule of thumb is to post in a way to further the conversation. 4. When you would like to write someone off list, do so. You do not have to write one liners to every person you'd like to email off list. If you develop a conversation with that person, that's great, if they feel they do not want to respond that is their right too. 5. Stay on topic. There are many times when informational emails are sent out to the list for distribution, these often include, but are not limited to: survey, announcements, ads, etc. If you have a moral objection to said informational emails, and it is relevant to blind students, please start a new thread. A lot of times people are so overwhelmed by the response to a particular informational email, that they cannot find the original post, and so someone who might benefit from it has difficulty getting at the information. 6. Finally, if at any point Mr. Whalen, who is the NABS President, Mr. David Andrews, who is the master for all NFB-net listservs, or myself, say that it is not ok to continue a thread, that thread should stop. Feel free to email us telling us why you think it should continue if you think it should and we will be more than happy to listen. -- Mary Fernandez List Moderator "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Apr 15 18:08:19 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:08:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Car References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC><000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401ce3a04$3613cab0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, As mentioned previously the "NFB Car" is really not a car at all but a technology interface that can be fitted in to any vehicle to allow it to be driven by a blind person. This same technology with some modifications could just as easily be included on a bus, a train, or even an airplane to enable all of these vehicles to be controlled and operated by a blind person. And there are the residual uses this technology will have to benefit the blind and others over time. All of these points are discussed in detail in The Braille Monitor, in several past national convention presentations and on the Blind Driver Challenge Web Site. This should clear things up as to the exact role our blind driver technology has compared with that of the Google Car. Hopefully Google will incorporate our interface in to their car to allow it to be driven by a blind person when the need arose. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert William Kingett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:05 PM Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the google car. In reading this thread this morning, there's a lot of support for a car that isn't even hinting at what stage in the development it's resting on. Someone said that the car will be ready by 2016 but that can be dismissed simply, because, the fact that the NFB are not even releasing any information about the car and also about the technology because, apparently, they don't want to be like apple and have their stuff taken. If this is the case then how would you know that the technology will be ready in 2016? It doesn't make sense. If there's no more press releases about the subject, news coverage, updates on the email list, and yes I've been subscribed for about a month, TV coverage, anything. It's as if this car was like an amazing firework that faded away over time.so, if there's no progress indicator as to how far the technology is then, no, the car will not be ready by 2016. No one knows when this car will be ready. As far as safety, I have a few things to point out. I've seen this car in action. It's stunning, amazing, and epic, but it’s prone to a lot of accidents simply by the sheer notion that it's human operated. Plus, instead of having one piece of technology to worry about failing, the driver as to be aware of everything. This fosters greater responsibility, yes, but that comes bundled with an unseen price. For those who don't know, I'll talk about the car. And the challenge and weigh the consider and pros, my opinions, of course, based in observation alone. The challengeis not the development of an autonomous car that drives a blind person around; the “challenge” is to develop a nonvisual interface for a car that can convey real-time information about driving conditions to the blind so that we can use our own capacity to think and react to interpret these data and maneuver a car safely. You know how on this list even some blind people were like oh my god I don’t want to be alongside of a blind person driving! There could be accidents with the Google car! Wouldn't this car present even more accidents? The sheer idea of the Google car was to create polite software that follows the rules of the road, keeping people safe. I don’t want to or don't need to tell you all about the kind of technology that this sports because I've posted many, many, many, many, many, many news articles and videos on the subject as well as videos, even a really long documentary on the car. In the NFB car, as I have said, the driver has to be aware of everything… even, say pedestrian’s etc. machine can act way faster than man. You know all those scenarios that people posted here about worrying about people running out into the street, etc.? Did you all not read the last news article I posted? The car stopped when a squirrel skittered onto the street. With the NFB car that information needs to be conveyed to the driver quickly enough for the driver to react. The Google car reacts instantly, and it did. As I have said, the NFB car’s drivers rely on information that HAS to be conveyed to them so that they can make decisions, but what if not everything is conveyed to them at a very crucial point, say, when a squirrel skitters out onto the road. Amazingly, I got to wave my press pass like a drunken monkey to have a close up look at the car. I also kept an eye out for good-looking black men but I didn't see any. When will I ever find a beautiful husband? Sigh. I want to have someone who looks like Denzel Washington! Ahem! Anyway… A vibrating seat, called SpeedStrip, told Riccobono whether to speed up or slow down depending on what part of the seat rumbled. Gloves with tiny vibrating motors, called DriveGrip, let Riccobono know what to do with the steering wheel. What if one of these malfunctions but the rest work fine, and someone runs out into the street before the driver can react. With the Google car, this doesn't happen, correction, didn't. Plus, as many news articles say, there's failsafe in place when something malfunctions. The issue with the blind car, again, is the reaction time of the driver and this is a huge issue because humans are not the same. Now, onto actually driving. If the NFB car is prominent then there are a whole slew of things that will have to be made. Driving tests specifically, and also test courses would need to be built that specifically test the adaptive technology in the car and a more unique driving test specifically for the blind, not to mention a track. With the Google car, this isn't needed. Sure, I’d believe you'd have to be licensed to use the car but it will be a much more streamlined process. Also, what if you’re missing a glove, etc. you can't drive, can you? Sighted people can just hop in their cars and go. the NFB car has to be geared up to go. What if you’re disorganized and loose a glove? You have everything else but you don't have all the technology needed to drive, and you'd have to call a cab anyway. Okay maybe not just a glove but you get my point right? Now, about any route, say, to school, In order to actually drive this route, the blind driver needs to have a thorough understanding of their immediate environment. You'd have to map out the route before you get there. With the Google car, this isn't even an issue. You'd just hop in the car and go. By the way, the best thing about having a car that operates on cloud technology, you could actually control the car via phone. You don't have to be in the car. This is incredible, meaning, before you leave, you can input where you want to go as you’re sitting on your couch. Something that's not in the Google car that I believe should be, is something to tell you how long it will take you to get there. I don't know why Google didn't think of that. For movies, etc. so you'd know what time you'd have to leave, etc. The software that's on the Google car is cloud based, everything, so it will update wirelessly. This is badass, if you ask me. Its maps will update in real time, almost. This is also a bad thing, because, as of now, if it's heavy snow or heavy rain then you can't drive the car. But the software will be updated. How would you update the GPS in the NFB car? Google is thinking about easy future implementation, hence having a car that operates via the cloud and wireless technology. This will make upgrades easier. You won’t have to get a new model unless the engine fails or something like that. As of now there's no audible interface to start the car but there's a keyboard command, shift X, if you were listening in the last video that I posted about the BBC documentary involving the Google car. This technology will accommodate the blind fully, with more work, because, hell, a blind person has driven it! That shows me that Google is definitely thinking about the blind driving this car in the future. There aren’t a lot of road laws that would need to be in place. With the NFB car you'd have to take into drinking while driving, etc., accompanying the blindness. With the Google car you can be as drunk as you want to be and drive back home or just sit back and let the car drive you home. Laws wouldn't have to be made at all, really, unless for underage drivers and such. Humans are greedy creatures. The Google car isn't pushy. To prove this, I would say watch the videos about the Google car found below this huge message that I'm writing out. Humans merge so they can pass others, etc., thus, more roads would need to be built because the instinct of us people is to just merge onto the next lane and pass. The Google car is courteous, allowing people to pass, merging behind cars to free up road space, etc. of course, you can already set the GPS to take you the fastest route or… whatever option there is… laughing out loud. I want to talk about theft, just because absolutely no one has covered this before. With the NFB car if someone steals equipment, you can't drive it can you? You’d have to get it toad, all because you were missing the seat strips. Yes, people steal weird stuff. It happens. Also, if you’re going to a job interview, or something, where would you put all that gear after you get in there? You forget, sighted people can just hop in a car and go, thus stealing your car without even needing any special gloves. Since the Google car, right now, starts with a hotkey on a computer keyboard it wouldn't be hard to implement fingerprint technology to make sure this doesn't happen. By the way, I don’t want to sit for an extra 7 minutes making sure all my gear is on. This is just nit-picking, and doesn't make a logical argument but I'm going to say it anyway. If I'm on a date with some gorgeous guy I want to hold his hand while I'm driving with him. It’s cute and romantic. In the NFB car I wouldn't be able to do that, thus, I’d be pouting all the way to the restaurant. Seriously if you all, if you had a gorgeous man sitting next to you wouldn’t you want to hold his hand? LOL. The Google car allows me to do this with no problem. I want to touch my sweet chocolate dang it! LOL. I am a young man, after all, I have needs! Ahem, moving on. You won’t be able to control the NFB car via phone. With the Google car you will. You can have it drop you off and then park, and then swig by to pick you up. Since the car will operate via computer, there's no question that will be a feature. What if you have to take a lot of equipment for your job? You can't eat and drive in the NFB car, etc. I believe I have said everything that I want to say. For the rest, let me repeat multiple times, watch the videos I posted about the BBC and the blind driver driving the Google car. I've included them below, by the way. I've posted enough news articles about the subject but if you need more I'll send it along. I seriously don't understand why the NFB are not behind this. This is the definition of a new kind of independence. The NFB shouldn’t be trying to push their car out to people because they made their blind drivable car. If the NFB is all about equality then we as NFB people, and yes ACB people too, should back this car without question, not trying to be celebrities because we have also made a car. The more support from all caps, the sooner this will become a sweet, sweet reality. See below for the videos. Google car. BBC video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJU7GgBMmY Google's self-driving car. Cell phone shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unS_WdnyDQY CNN test-drives Google’s "self-driving car" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpPPVvGqTY Google's Self-Driving Car Coming Soon? 2013. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2pRwcw8ew Blind man driving the Google car with audio description. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From hope.paulos at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 18:11:43 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:11:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Car In-Reply-To: <002401ce3a04$3613cab0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> <002401ce3a04$3613cab0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <64851CC3-99BA-4002-B488-7C58C7025443@gmail.com> I'm assuming this interface is an prototype at the moment. Do you know when it will become commercially available? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > Good afternoon everyone, > > As mentioned previously the "NFB Car" is really not a car at all but a > technology interface that can be fitted in to any vehicle to allow it to be > driven by a blind person. This same technology with some modifications could > just as easily be included on a bus, a train, or even an airplane to enable > all of these vehicles to be controlled and operated by a blind person. And > there are the residual uses this technology will have to benefit the blind > and others over time. All of these points are discussed in detail in The > Braille Monitor, in several past national convention presentations and on > the Blind Driver Challenge Web Site. This should clear things up as to the > exact role our blind driver technology has compared with that of the Google > Car. Hopefully Google will incorporate our interface in to their car to > allow it to be driven by a blind person when the need arose. > > Peter Donahue > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert William Kingett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:05 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the google car. > > > In reading this thread this morning, there's a lot of support for a car > that isn't even hinting at what stage in the development it's resting > on. Someone said that the car will be ready by 2016 but that can be > dismissed simply, because, the fact that the NFB are not even releasing > any information about the car and also about the technology because, > apparently, they don't want to be like apple and have their stuff taken. > If this is the case then how would you know that the technology will be > ready in 2016? It doesn't make sense. If there's no more press releases > about the subject, news coverage, updates on the email list, and yes > I've been subscribed for about a month, TV coverage, anything. It's as > if this car was like an amazing firework that faded away over time.so, > if there's no progress indicator as to how far the technology is then, > no, the car will not be ready by 2016. No one knows when this car will > be ready. > > As far as safety, I have a few things to point out. I've seen this car > in action. It's stunning, amazing, and epic, but it’s prone to a lot of > accidents simply by the sheer notion that it's human operated. Plus, > instead of having one piece of technology to worry about failing, the > driver as to be aware of everything. This fosters greater > responsibility, yes, but that comes bundled with an unseen price. For > those who don't know, I'll talk about the car. And the challenge and > weigh the consider and pros, my opinions, of course, based in > observation alone. > > The challengeis not the development of an autonomous car that drives a > blind person around; the “challenge” is to develop a nonvisual interface > for a car that can convey real-time information about driving conditions > to the blind so that we can use our own capacity to think and react to > interpret these data and maneuver a car safely. > > You know how on this list even some blind people were like oh my god I > don’t want to be alongside of a blind person driving! There could be > accidents with the Google car! Wouldn't this car present even more > accidents? The sheer idea of the Google car was to create polite > software that follows the rules of the road, keeping people safe. I > don’t want to or don't need to tell you all about the kind of technology > that this sports because I've posted many, many, many, many, many, many > news articles and videos on the subject as well as videos, even a really > long documentary on the car. In the NFB car, as I have said, the driver > has to be aware of everything… even, say pedestrian’s etc. machine can > act way faster than man. You know all those scenarios that people posted > here about worrying about people running out into the street, etc.? Did > you all not read the last news article I posted? The car stopped when a > squirrel skittered onto the street. With the NFB car that information > needs to be conveyed to the driver quickly enough for the driver to > react. The Google car reacts instantly, and it did. As I have said, the > NFB car’s drivers rely on information that HAS to be conveyed to them so > that they can make decisions, but what if not everything is conveyed to > them at a very crucial point, say, when a squirrel skitters out onto the > road. Amazingly, I got to wave my press pass like a drunken monkey to > have a close up look at the car. > > I also kept an eye out for good-looking black men but I didn't see any. > When will I ever find a beautiful husband? Sigh. I want to have someone > who looks like Denzel Washington! Ahem! Anyway… > > A vibrating seat, called SpeedStrip, told Riccobono whether to speed up > or slow down depending on what part of the seat rumbled. Gloves with > tiny vibrating motors, called DriveGrip, let Riccobono know what to do > with the steering wheel. What if one of these malfunctions but the rest > work fine, and someone runs out into the street before the driver can > react. With the Google car, this doesn't happen, correction, didn't. > Plus, as many news articles say, there's failsafe in place when > something malfunctions. The issue with the blind car, again, is the > reaction time of the driver and this is a huge issue because humans are > not the same. > > Now, onto actually driving. If the NFB car is prominent then there are a > whole slew of things that will have to be made. Driving tests > specifically, and also test courses would need to be built that > specifically test the adaptive technology in the car and a more unique > driving test specifically for the blind, not to mention a track. With > the Google car, this isn't needed. Sure, I’d believe you'd have to be > licensed to use the car but it will be a much more streamlined process. > > Also, what if you’re missing a glove, etc. you can't drive, can you? > Sighted people can just hop in their cars and go. the NFB car has to be > geared up to go. What if you’re disorganized and loose a glove? You have > everything else but you don't have all the technology needed to drive, > and you'd have to call a cab anyway. Okay maybe not just a glove but you > get my point right? > > Now, about any route, say, to school, In order to actually drive this > route, the blind driver needs to have a thorough understanding of their > immediate environment. You'd have to map out the route before you get > there. With the Google car, this isn't even an issue. You'd just hop in > the car and go. By the way, the best thing about having a car that > operates on cloud technology, you could actually control the car via > phone. You don't have to be in the car. This is incredible, meaning, > before you leave, you can input where you want to go as you’re sitting > on your couch. > > Something that's not in the Google car that I believe should be, is > something to tell you how long it will take you to get there. I don't > know why Google didn't think of that. For movies, etc. so you'd know > what time you'd have to leave, etc. > > The software that's on the Google car is cloud based, everything, so it > will update wirelessly. This is badass, if you ask me. Its maps will > update in real time, almost. This is also a bad thing, because, as of > now, if it's heavy snow or heavy rain then you can't drive the car. But > the software will be updated. How would you update the GPS in the NFB > car? Google is thinking about easy future implementation, hence having a > car that operates via the cloud and wireless technology. This will make > upgrades easier. You won’t have to get a new model unless the engine > fails or something like that. > > As of now there's no audible interface to start the car but there's a > keyboard command, shift X, if you were listening in the last video that > I posted about the BBC documentary involving the Google car. This > technology will accommodate the blind fully, with more work, because, > hell, a blind person has driven it! That shows me that Google is > definitely thinking about the blind driving this car in the future. > > There aren’t a lot of road laws that would need to be in place. With the > NFB car you'd have to take into drinking while driving, etc., > accompanying the blindness. With the Google car you can be as drunk as > you want to be and drive back home or just sit back and let the car > drive you home. Laws wouldn't have to be made at all, really, unless for > underage drivers and such. > > Humans are greedy creatures. The Google car isn't pushy. To prove this, > I would say watch the videos about the Google car found below this huge > message that I'm writing out. Humans merge so they can pass others, > etc., thus, more roads would need to be built because the instinct of us > people is to just merge onto the next lane and pass. The Google car is > courteous, allowing people to pass, merging behind cars to free up road > space, etc. of course, you can already set the GPS to take you the > fastest route or… whatever option there is… laughing out loud. > > I want to talk about theft, just because absolutely no one has covered > this before. With the NFB car if someone steals equipment, you can't > drive it can you? You’d have to get it toad, all because you were > missing the seat strips. Yes, people steal weird stuff. It happens. > Also, if you’re going to a job interview, or something, where would you > put all that gear after you get in there? You forget, sighted people can > just hop in a car and go, thus stealing your car without even needing > any special gloves. Since the Google car, right now, starts with a > hotkey on a computer keyboard it wouldn't be hard to implement > fingerprint technology to make sure this doesn't happen. By the way, I > don’t want to sit for an extra 7 minutes making sure all my gear is on. > > This is just nit-picking, and doesn't make a logical argument but I'm > going to say it anyway. If I'm on a date with some gorgeous guy I want > to hold his hand while I'm driving with him. It’s cute and romantic. In > the NFB car I wouldn't be able to do that, thus, I’d be pouting all the > way to the restaurant. Seriously if you all, if you had a gorgeous man > sitting next to you wouldn’t you want to hold his hand? LOL. The Google > car allows me to do this with no problem. I want to touch my sweet > chocolate dang it! LOL. I am a young man, after all, I have needs! Ahem, > moving on. > > You won’t be able to control the NFB car via phone. With the Google car > you will. You can have it drop you off and then park, and then swig by > to pick you up. Since the car will operate via computer, there's no > question that will be a feature. > > What if you have to take a lot of equipment for your job? You can't eat > and drive in the NFB car, etc. > > I believe I have said everything that I want to say. For the rest, let > me repeat multiple times, watch the videos I posted about the BBC and > the blind driver driving the Google car. I've included them below, by > the way. I've posted enough news articles about the subject but if you > need more I'll send it along. > > I seriously don't understand why the NFB are not behind this. This is > the definition of a new kind of independence. The NFB shouldn’t be > trying to push their car out to people because they made their blind > drivable car. If the NFB is all about equality then we as NFB people, > and yes ACB people too, should back this car without question, not > trying to be celebrities because we have also made a car. The more > support from all caps, the sooner this will become a sweet, sweet > reality. See below for the videos. > > Google car. BBC video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJU7GgBMmY > > Google's self-driving car. Cell phone shot. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unS_WdnyDQY > > CNN test-drives Google’s "self-driving car" > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpPPVvGqTY > > Google's Self-Driving Car Coming Soon? 2013. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2pRwcw8ew > > Blind man driving the Google car with audio description. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Apr 15 18:14:19 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:14:19 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Car In-Reply-To: <64851CC3-99BA-4002-B488-7C58C7025443@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> <002401ce3a04$3613cab0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn>, <64851CC3-99BA-4002-B488-7C58C7025443@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Hope! As I stated on another thread, I believe it's supposed to come out in 2016. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos [hope.paulos at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 1:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB Car I'm assuming this interface is an prototype at the moment. Do you know when it will become commercially available? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > Good afternoon everyone, > > As mentioned previously the "NFB Car" is really not a car at all but a > technology interface that can be fitted in to any vehicle to allow it to be > driven by a blind person. This same technology with some modifications could > just as easily be included on a bus, a train, or even an airplane to enable > all of these vehicles to be controlled and operated by a blind person. And > there are the residual uses this technology will have to benefit the blind > and others over time. All of these points are discussed in detail in The > Braille Monitor, in several past national convention presentations and on > the Blind Driver Challenge Web Site. This should clear things up as to the > exact role our blind driver technology has compared with that of the Google > Car. Hopefully Google will incorporate our interface in to their car to > allow it to be driven by a blind person when the need arose. > > Peter Donahue > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert William Kingett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:05 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the google car. > > > In reading this thread this morning, there's a lot of support for a car > that isn't even hinting at what stage in the development it's resting > on. Someone said that the car will be ready by 2016 but that can be > dismissed simply, because, the fact that the NFB are not even releasing > any information about the car and also about the technology because, > apparently, they don't want to be like apple and have their stuff taken. > If this is the case then how would you know that the technology will be > ready in 2016? It doesn't make sense. If there's no more press releases > about the subject, news coverage, updates on the email list, and yes > I've been subscribed for about a month, TV coverage, anything. It's as > if this car was like an amazing firework that faded away over time.so, > if there's no progress indicator as to how far the technology is then, > no, the car will not be ready by 2016. No one knows when this car will > be ready. > > As far as safety, I have a few things to point out. I've seen this car > in action. It's stunning, amazing, and epic, but it’s prone to a lot of > accidents simply by the sheer notion that it's human operated. Plus, > instead of having one piece of technology to worry about failing, the > driver as to be aware of everything. This fosters greater > responsibility, yes, but that comes bundled with an unseen price. For > those who don't know, I'll talk about the car. And the challenge and > weigh the consider and pros, my opinions, of course, based in > observation alone. > > The challengeis not the development of an autonomous car that drives a > blind person around; the “challenge” is to develop a nonvisual interface > for a car that can convey real-time information about driving conditions > to the blind so that we can use our own capacity to think and react to > interpret these data and maneuver a car safely. > > You know how on this list even some blind people were like oh my god I > don’t want to be alongside of a blind person driving! There could be > accidents with the Google car! Wouldn't this car present even more > accidents? The sheer idea of the Google car was to create polite > software that follows the rules of the road, keeping people safe. I > don’t want to or don't need to tell you all about the kind of technology > that this sports because I've posted many, many, many, many, many, many > news articles and videos on the subject as well as videos, even a really > long documentary on the car. In the NFB car, as I have said, the driver > has to be aware of everything… even, say pedestrian’s etc. machine can > act way faster than man. You know all those scenarios that people posted > here about worrying about people running out into the street, etc.? Did > you all not read the last news article I posted? The car stopped when a > squirrel skittered onto the street. With the NFB car that information > needs to be conveyed to the driver quickly enough for the driver to > react. The Google car reacts instantly, and it did. As I have said, the > NFB car’s drivers rely on information that HAS to be conveyed to them so > that they can make decisions, but what if not everything is conveyed to > them at a very crucial point, say, when a squirrel skitters out onto the > road. Amazingly, I got to wave my press pass like a drunken monkey to > have a close up look at the car. > > I also kept an eye out for good-looking black men but I didn't see any. > When will I ever find a beautiful husband? Sigh. I want to have someone > who looks like Denzel Washington! Ahem! Anyway… > > A vibrating seat, called SpeedStrip, told Riccobono whether to speed up > or slow down depending on what part of the seat rumbled. Gloves with > tiny vibrating motors, called DriveGrip, let Riccobono know what to do > with the steering wheel. What if one of these malfunctions but the rest > work fine, and someone runs out into the street before the driver can > react. With the Google car, this doesn't happen, correction, didn't. > Plus, as many news articles say, there's failsafe in place when > something malfunctions. The issue with the blind car, again, is the > reaction time of the driver and this is a huge issue because humans are > not the same. > > Now, onto actually driving. If the NFB car is prominent then there are a > whole slew of things that will have to be made. Driving tests > specifically, and also test courses would need to be built that > specifically test the adaptive technology in the car and a more unique > driving test specifically for the blind, not to mention a track. With > the Google car, this isn't needed. Sure, I’d believe you'd have to be > licensed to use the car but it will be a much more streamlined process. > > Also, what if you’re missing a glove, etc. you can't drive, can you? > Sighted people can just hop in their cars and go. the NFB car has to be > geared up to go. What if you’re disorganized and loose a glove? You have > everything else but you don't have all the technology needed to drive, > and you'd have to call a cab anyway. Okay maybe not just a glove but you > get my point right? > > Now, about any route, say, to school, In order to actually drive this > route, the blind driver needs to have a thorough understanding of their > immediate environment. You'd have to map out the route before you get > there. With the Google car, this isn't even an issue. You'd just hop in > the car and go. By the way, the best thing about having a car that > operates on cloud technology, you could actually control the car via > phone. You don't have to be in the car. This is incredible, meaning, > before you leave, you can input where you want to go as you’re sitting > on your couch. > > Something that's not in the Google car that I believe should be, is > something to tell you how long it will take you to get there. I don't > know why Google didn't think of that. For movies, etc. so you'd know > what time you'd have to leave, etc. > > The software that's on the Google car is cloud based, everything, so it > will update wirelessly. This is badass, if you ask me. Its maps will > update in real time, almost. This is also a bad thing, because, as of > now, if it's heavy snow or heavy rain then you can't drive the car. But > the software will be updated. How would you update the GPS in the NFB > car? Google is thinking about easy future implementation, hence having a > car that operates via the cloud and wireless technology. This will make > upgrades easier. You won’t have to get a new model unless the engine > fails or something like that. > > As of now there's no audible interface to start the car but there's a > keyboard command, shift X, if you were listening in the last video that > I posted about the BBC documentary involving the Google car. This > technology will accommodate the blind fully, with more work, because, > hell, a blind person has driven it! That shows me that Google is > definitely thinking about the blind driving this car in the future. > > There aren’t a lot of road laws that would need to be in place. With the > NFB car you'd have to take into drinking while driving, etc., > accompanying the blindness. With the Google car you can be as drunk as > you want to be and drive back home or just sit back and let the car > drive you home. Laws wouldn't have to be made at all, really, unless for > underage drivers and such. > > Humans are greedy creatures. The Google car isn't pushy. To prove this, > I would say watch the videos about the Google car found below this huge > message that I'm writing out. Humans merge so they can pass others, > etc., thus, more roads would need to be built because the instinct of us > people is to just merge onto the next lane and pass. The Google car is > courteous, allowing people to pass, merging behind cars to free up road > space, etc. of course, you can already set the GPS to take you the > fastest route or… whatever option there is… laughing out loud. > > I want to talk about theft, just because absolutely no one has covered > this before. With the NFB car if someone steals equipment, you can't > drive it can you? You’d have to get it toad, all because you were > missing the seat strips. Yes, people steal weird stuff. It happens. > Also, if you’re going to a job interview, or something, where would you > put all that gear after you get in there? You forget, sighted people can > just hop in a car and go, thus stealing your car without even needing > any special gloves. Since the Google car, right now, starts with a > hotkey on a computer keyboard it wouldn't be hard to implement > fingerprint technology to make sure this doesn't happen. By the way, I > don’t want to sit for an extra 7 minutes making sure all my gear is on. > > This is just nit-picking, and doesn't make a logical argument but I'm > going to say it anyway. If I'm on a date with some gorgeous guy I want > to hold his hand while I'm driving with him. It’s cute and romantic. In > the NFB car I wouldn't be able to do that, thus, I’d be pouting all the > way to the restaurant. Seriously if you all, if you had a gorgeous man > sitting next to you wouldn’t you want to hold his hand? LOL. The Google > car allows me to do this with no problem. I want to touch my sweet > chocolate dang it! LOL. I am a young man, after all, I have needs! Ahem, > moving on. > > You won’t be able to control the NFB car via phone. With the Google car > you will. You can have it drop you off and then park, and then swig by > to pick you up. Since the car will operate via computer, there's no > question that will be a feature. > > What if you have to take a lot of equipment for your job? You can't eat > and drive in the NFB car, etc. > > I believe I have said everything that I want to say. For the rest, let > me repeat multiple times, watch the videos I posted about the BBC and > the blind driver driving the Google car. I've included them below, by > the way. I've posted enough news articles about the subject but if you > need more I'll send it along. > > I seriously don't understand why the NFB are not behind this. This is > the definition of a new kind of independence. The NFB shouldn’t be > trying to push their car out to people because they made their blind > drivable car. If the NFB is all about equality then we as NFB people, > and yes ACB people too, should back this car without question, not > trying to be celebrities because we have also made a car. The more > support from all caps, the sooner this will become a sweet, sweet > reality. See below for the videos. > > Google car. BBC video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJU7GgBMmY > > Google's self-driving car. Cell phone shot. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unS_WdnyDQY > > CNN test-drives Google’s "self-driving car" > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpPPVvGqTY > > Google's Self-Driving Car Coming Soon? 2013. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2pRwcw8ew > > Blind man driving the Google car with audio description. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From trillian551 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 18:25:58 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:25:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read In-Reply-To: <017801ce393a$662748a0$3275d9e0$@gmail.com> References: <017801ce393a$662748a0$3275d9e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's perfectly fine. By this we meant that posts should be respectful. Offensive language, and direct attacks do not make for good conversation. Thanks. On 4/14/13, justin williams wrote: > What would you consider as well thought out? What if I am simply > expressing > support or agreement with a post? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 1:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read > > All, > I am attaching and pasting in the body of this email, a list of guidelines > that we should all follow when posting to this list. I'd appreciate it if > we > can all make an attempt to comply. > Feel free to email me with any questions. > Thanks. > NABS List Guidelines > > 1. This Listserv is a great forum in which we can all express our > opinions. Which in turns, means that we will inevitably disagree. > However, when responding to a post, always be respectful. Everyone is > entitled to their opinion, and personal attacks and degrading comments > will > not be tolerated. > 2. All posts must be appropriate. The Listserv is opened to students > of all ages, from middle school to post graduate, it is also opened to > blindness professionals and other interested parties. Thus, when posting on > the listserv remember to use the appropriate language. > Profanity is not appropriate. Furthermore, the content should be well > thought out. > 3. In the last year, many people have taken to posting one liners to > the list. This habit creates unnecessary clutter. Often, there are several > threads going on at once, and one might feel compel to answer to each of > those individually. When this happens, please make sure that your post says > more than, "I agree" or "good idea". When responding to a post, please make > sure that there is actual substance to that post, which will further the > conversation. To go along with that, when someone expresses a differing > opinion, and you have already voiced your thought, please do not send > repeated posts on how you stand by your opinion unless you have more to add > to that. Threads that grow into the 70s and 80s in posts, should not be > half > made up of "that's what I think, like I said before", and "I stand by what > I > said earlier". Rule of thumb is to post in a way to further the > conversation. > 4. When you would like to write someone off list, do so. You do not > have to write one liners to every person you'd like to email off list. > If you develop a conversation with that person, that's great, if they feel > they do not want to respond that is their right too. > 5. Stay on topic. There are many times when informational emails are > sent out to the list for distribution, these often include, but are not > limited to: survey, announcements, ads, etc. If you have a moral objection > to said informational emails, and it is relevant to blind students, please > start a new thread. A lot of times people are so overwhelmed by the > response > to a particular informational email, that they cannot find the original > post, and so someone who might benefit from it has difficulty getting at > the > information. > 6. Finally, if at any point Mr. Whalen, who is the NABS President, Mr. > David Andrews, who is the master for all NFB-net listservs, or myself, say > that it is not ok to continue a thread, that thread should stop. > Feel free to email us telling us why you think it should continue if you > think it should and we will be more than happy to listen. > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > List Moderator > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget > what > you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." > - > Maya Angelou > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:33:19 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:33:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read In-Reply-To: References: <017801ce393a$662748a0$3275d9e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <017a01ce393e$89c2be80$9d483b80$@gmail.com> Thank you for clarification. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 2:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read That's perfectly fine. By this we meant that posts should be respectful. Offensive language, and direct attacks do not make for good conversation. Thanks. On 4/14/13, justin williams wrote: > What would you consider as well thought out? What if I am simply > expressing > support or agreement with a post? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 1:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Listserv ettiquet, please read > > All, > I am attaching and pasting in the body of this email, a list of guidelines > that we should all follow when posting to this list. I'd appreciate it if > we > can all make an attempt to comply. > Feel free to email me with any questions. > Thanks. > NABS List Guidelines > > 1. This Listserv is a great forum in which we can all express our > opinions. Which in turns, means that we will inevitably disagree. > However, when responding to a post, always be respectful. Everyone is > entitled to their opinion, and personal attacks and degrading comments > will > not be tolerated. > 2. All posts must be appropriate. The Listserv is opened to students > of all ages, from middle school to post graduate, it is also opened to > blindness professionals and other interested parties. Thus, when posting on > the listserv remember to use the appropriate language. > Profanity is not appropriate. Furthermore, the content should be well > thought out. > 3. In the last year, many people have taken to posting one liners to > the list. This habit creates unnecessary clutter. Often, there are several > threads going on at once, and one might feel compel to answer to each of > those individually. When this happens, please make sure that your post says > more than, "I agree" or "good idea". When responding to a post, please make > sure that there is actual substance to that post, which will further the > conversation. To go along with that, when someone expresses a differing > opinion, and you have already voiced your thought, please do not send > repeated posts on how you stand by your opinion unless you have more to add > to that. Threads that grow into the 70s and 80s in posts, should not be > half > made up of "that's what I think, like I said before", and "I stand by what > I > said earlier". Rule of thumb is to post in a way to further the > conversation. > 4. When you would like to write someone off list, do so. You do not > have to write one liners to every person you'd like to email off list. > If you develop a conversation with that person, that's great, if they feel > they do not want to respond that is their right too. > 5. Stay on topic. There are many times when informational emails are > sent out to the list for distribution, these often include, but are not > limited to: survey, announcements, ads, etc. If you have a moral objection > to said informational emails, and it is relevant to blind students, please > start a new thread. A lot of times people are so overwhelmed by the > response > to a particular informational email, that they cannot find the original > post, and so someone who might benefit from it has difficulty getting at > the > information. > 6. Finally, if at any point Mr. Whalen, who is the NABS President, Mr. > David Andrews, who is the master for all NFB-net listservs, or myself, say > that it is not ok to continue a thread, that thread should stop. > Feel free to email us telling us why you think it should continue if you > think it should and we will be more than happy to listen. > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > List Moderator > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget > what > you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." > - > Maya Angelou > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 18:44:15 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:44:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Car In-Reply-To: References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com> <516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com> <365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC> <000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> <002401ce3a04$3613cab0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <64851CC3-99BA-4002-B488-7C58C7025443@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6861638576574661392@unknownmsgid> It should be remembered, though, that this date is totally subject to change. The technology is still in the planning stages, and could need more testing before it is commercially available. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 2:15 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Hope! > As I stated on another thread, I believe it's supposed to come out in 2016. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hope Paulos [hope.paulos at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 1:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB Car > > I'm assuming this interface is an prototype at the moment. Do you know when it will become commercially available? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > >> Good afternoon everyone, >> >> As mentioned previously the "NFB Car" is really not a car at all but a >> technology interface that can be fitted in to any vehicle to allow it to be >> driven by a blind person. This same technology with some modifications could >> just as easily be included on a bus, a train, or even an airplane to enable >> all of these vehicles to be controlled and operated by a blind person. And >> there are the residual uses this technology will have to benefit the blind >> and others over time. All of these points are discussed in detail in The >> Braille Monitor, in several past national convention presentations and on >> the Blind Driver Challenge Web Site. This should clear things up as to the >> exact role our blind driver technology has compared with that of the Google >> Car. Hopefully Google will incorporate our interface in to their car to >> allow it to be driven by a blind person when the need arose. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert William Kingett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:05 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the google car. >> >> >> In reading this thread this morning, there's a lot of support for a car >> that isn't even hinting at what stage in the development it's resting >> on. Someone said that the car will be ready by 2016 but that can be >> dismissed simply, because, the fact that the NFB are not even releasing >> any information about the car and also about the technology because, >> apparently, they don't want to be like apple and have their stuff taken. >> If this is the case then how would you know that the technology will be >> ready in 2016? It doesn't make sense. If there's no more press releases >> about the subject, news coverage, updates on the email list, and yes >> I've been subscribed for about a month, TV coverage, anything. It's as >> if this car was like an amazing firework that faded away over time.so, >> if there's no progress indicator as to how far the technology is then, >> no, the car will not be ready by 2016. No one knows when this car will >> be ready. >> >> As far as safety, I have a few things to point out. I've seen this car >> in action. It's stunning, amazing, and epic, but it’s prone to a lot of >> accidents simply by the sheer notion that it's human operated. Plus, >> instead of having one piece of technology to worry about failing, the >> driver as to be aware of everything. This fosters greater >> responsibility, yes, but that comes bundled with an unseen price. For >> those who don't know, I'll talk about the car. And the challenge and >> weigh the consider and pros, my opinions, of course, based in >> observation alone. >> >> The challengeis not the development of an autonomous car that drives a >> blind person around; the “challenge” is to develop a nonvisual interface >> for a car that can convey real-time information about driving conditions >> to the blind so that we can use our own capacity to think and react to >> interpret these data and maneuver a car safely. >> >> You know how on this list even some blind people were like oh my god I >> don’t want to be alongside of a blind person driving! There could be >> accidents with the Google car! Wouldn't this car present even more >> accidents? The sheer idea of the Google car was to create polite >> software that follows the rules of the road, keeping people safe. I >> don’t want to or don't need to tell you all about the kind of technology >> that this sports because I've posted many, many, many, many, many, many >> news articles and videos on the subject as well as videos, even a really >> long documentary on the car. In the NFB car, as I have said, the driver >> has to be aware of everything… even, say pedestrian’s etc. machine can >> act way faster than man. You know all those scenarios that people posted >> here about worrying about people running out into the street, etc.? Did >> you all not read the last news article I posted? The car stopped when a >> squirrel skittered onto the street. With the NFB car that information >> needs to be conveyed to the driver quickly enough for the driver to >> react. The Google car reacts instantly, and it did. As I have said, the >> NFB car’s drivers rely on information that HAS to be conveyed to them so >> that they can make decisions, but what if not everything is conveyed to >> them at a very crucial point, say, when a squirrel skitters out onto the >> road. Amazingly, I got to wave my press pass like a drunken monkey to >> have a close up look at the car. >> >> I also kept an eye out for good-looking black men but I didn't see any. >> When will I ever find a beautiful husband? Sigh. I want to have someone >> who looks like Denzel Washington! Ahem! Anyway… >> >> A vibrating seat, called SpeedStrip, told Riccobono whether to speed up >> or slow down depending on what part of the seat rumbled. Gloves with >> tiny vibrating motors, called DriveGrip, let Riccobono know what to do >> with the steering wheel. What if one of these malfunctions but the rest >> work fine, and someone runs out into the street before the driver can >> react. With the Google car, this doesn't happen, correction, didn't. >> Plus, as many news articles say, there's failsafe in place when >> something malfunctions. The issue with the blind car, again, is the >> reaction time of the driver and this is a huge issue because humans are >> not the same. >> >> Now, onto actually driving. If the NFB car is prominent then there are a >> whole slew of things that will have to be made. Driving tests >> specifically, and also test courses would need to be built that >> specifically test the adaptive technology in the car and a more unique >> driving test specifically for the blind, not to mention a track. With >> the Google car, this isn't needed. Sure, I’d believe you'd have to be >> licensed to use the car but it will be a much more streamlined process. >> >> Also, what if you’re missing a glove, etc. you can't drive, can you? >> Sighted people can just hop in their cars and go. the NFB car has to be >> geared up to go. What if you’re disorganized and loose a glove? You have >> everything else but you don't have all the technology needed to drive, >> and you'd have to call a cab anyway. Okay maybe not just a glove but you >> get my point right? >> >> Now, about any route, say, to school, In order to actually drive this >> route, the blind driver needs to have a thorough understanding of their >> immediate environment. You'd have to map out the route before you get >> there. With the Google car, this isn't even an issue. You'd just hop in >> the car and go. By the way, the best thing about having a car that >> operates on cloud technology, you could actually control the car via >> phone. You don't have to be in the car. This is incredible, meaning, >> before you leave, you can input where you want to go as you’re sitting >> on your couch. >> >> Something that's not in the Google car that I believe should be, is >> something to tell you how long it will take you to get there. I don't >> know why Google didn't think of that. For movies, etc. so you'd know >> what time you'd have to leave, etc. >> >> The software that's on the Google car is cloud based, everything, so it >> will update wirelessly. This is badass, if you ask me. Its maps will >> update in real time, almost. This is also a bad thing, because, as of >> now, if it's heavy snow or heavy rain then you can't drive the car. But >> the software will be updated. How would you update the GPS in the NFB >> car? Google is thinking about easy future implementation, hence having a >> car that operates via the cloud and wireless technology. This will make >> upgrades easier. You won’t have to get a new model unless the engine >> fails or something like that. >> >> As of now there's no audible interface to start the car but there's a >> keyboard command, shift X, if you were listening in the last video that >> I posted about the BBC documentary involving the Google car. This >> technology will accommodate the blind fully, with more work, because, >> hell, a blind person has driven it! That shows me that Google is >> definitely thinking about the blind driving this car in the future. >> >> There aren’t a lot of road laws that would need to be in place. With the >> NFB car you'd have to take into drinking while driving, etc., >> accompanying the blindness. With the Google car you can be as drunk as >> you want to be and drive back home or just sit back and let the car >> drive you home. Laws wouldn't have to be made at all, really, unless for >> underage drivers and such. >> >> Humans are greedy creatures. The Google car isn't pushy. To prove this, >> I would say watch the videos about the Google car found below this huge >> message that I'm writing out. Humans merge so they can pass others, >> etc., thus, more roads would need to be built because the instinct of us >> people is to just merge onto the next lane and pass. The Google car is >> courteous, allowing people to pass, merging behind cars to free up road >> space, etc. of course, you can already set the GPS to take you the >> fastest route or… whatever option there is… laughing out loud. >> >> I want to talk about theft, just because absolutely no one has covered >> this before. With the NFB car if someone steals equipment, you can't >> drive it can you? You’d have to get it toad, all because you were >> missing the seat strips. Yes, people steal weird stuff. It happens. >> Also, if you’re going to a job interview, or something, where would you >> put all that gear after you get in there? You forget, sighted people can >> just hop in a car and go, thus stealing your car without even needing >> any special gloves. Since the Google car, right now, starts with a >> hotkey on a computer keyboard it wouldn't be hard to implement >> fingerprint technology to make sure this doesn't happen. By the way, I >> don’t want to sit for an extra 7 minutes making sure all my gear is on. >> >> This is just nit-picking, and doesn't make a logical argument but I'm >> going to say it anyway. If I'm on a date with some gorgeous guy I want >> to hold his hand while I'm driving with him. It’s cute and romantic. In >> the NFB car I wouldn't be able to do that, thus, I’d be pouting all the >> way to the restaurant. Seriously if you all, if you had a gorgeous man >> sitting next to you wouldn’t you want to hold his hand? LOL. The Google >> car allows me to do this with no problem. I want to touch my sweet >> chocolate dang it! LOL. I am a young man, after all, I have needs! Ahem, >> moving on. >> >> You won’t be able to control the NFB car via phone. With the Google car >> you will. You can have it drop you off and then park, and then swig by >> to pick you up. Since the car will operate via computer, there's no >> question that will be a feature. >> >> What if you have to take a lot of equipment for your job? You can't eat >> and drive in the NFB car, etc. >> >> I believe I have said everything that I want to say. For the rest, let >> me repeat multiple times, watch the videos I posted about the BBC and >> the blind driver driving the Google car. I've included them below, by >> the way. I've posted enough news articles about the subject but if you >> need more I'll send it along. >> >> I seriously don't understand why the NFB are not behind this. This is >> the definition of a new kind of independence. The NFB shouldn’t be >> trying to push their car out to people because they made their blind >> drivable car. If the NFB is all about equality then we as NFB people, >> and yes ACB people too, should back this car without question, not >> trying to be celebrities because we have also made a car. The more >> support from all caps, the sooner this will become a sweet, sweet >> reality. See below for the videos. >> >> Google car. BBC video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJU7GgBMmY >> >> Google's self-driving car. Cell phone shot. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unS_WdnyDQY >> >> CNN test-drives Google’s "self-driving car" >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpPPVvGqTY >> >> Google's Self-Driving Car Coming Soon? 2013. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2pRwcw8ew >> >> Blind man driving the Google car with audio description. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 21:03:03 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:03:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Message-ID: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0eart hlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s atx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From kat.bottner at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 21:53:28 2013 From: kat.bottner at gmail.com (Kat Bottner) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:53:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] student division fundraiser Message-ID: Hi nabsters, I'm not sure if I heard correctly, but I heard something about the student division is selling flash drives with the NFB logo on them? My question is, is this a current fundraiser, or is this a fundraiser that was done in the past? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Kat From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Mon Apr 15 22:20:08 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:20:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying for Law Message-ID: Hi guys, this is Helga, what’s up? I just wanted to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying for being a lawyer, or studying for Law? I was just wondering because I’m actually studying in college in order to become a Lawyer!. Also, how do you guys handle your books in order to study for it, and what specific classes are you guys taking? I’m just curious, since I’m still in my Freshman year in college and I’m not quite there yet. By the way, Do some of you use Braille books to study for Law? Just curious!. Thanks so much for listening to me. God bless! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 22:54:11 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:54:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Best Job Interview Advice Message-ID: <002701ce3a2c$253056a0$6f9103e0$@gmail.com> Congratulations on landing a job interview! Something in your cover letter and résumé caught the employer's eye. They're ready to meet you. Everything seems to be going in your favor, so now is not the time for your brain to get in the way of what could be your next step to securing the position. Read the rest of the article: http://joeorozco.com/blog_the_best_job_interview_advice From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 23:01:39 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:01:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other situations. Arielle On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving > an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people > have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > The car should be out by 2016. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie > Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > electricity? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Wow, Peter! > Like minds huh? > I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Good afternoon one more time everyone, > > Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > > There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > technology > along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > track at > Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > ready been > demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > have driven > the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > unite and > work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > else to > insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > controllable by a > blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > protected. We > don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > and > empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > initiative. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > Amen, Patrick! > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Patrick Molloy > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > with you. > When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > to go, > don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > in the NFB > car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > the thing! > If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > from the > public and then give no explanation when it essentially > disappears. I'm not > saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > myself with > that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > and, with > some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > If you want > to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > more power to > you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > that many > people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > why blind > people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > the potential > of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > more or less > assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > us blind > people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > I decide > not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > found it > not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > that we as > blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > in one way > or another. > Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > people > when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > tired of > waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > practice! If > we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > should have > the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > Separate is not > equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > think it > ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > to at > least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > like our > brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > self-serving, > but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > can take a > bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > bus if we > don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > got time to > kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > the same > freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > the > realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > people. > Patrick > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of > Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > self > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > depending on > if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > Here > in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > FL > where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > So > yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > have > said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > along > the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > I'm > frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > allowfor > me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > thus > allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > non > self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > 40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > atx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Apr 16 00:14:33 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:14:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Arielle and everyone, Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to take over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind person to drive independently why should we be left out. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other situations. Arielle On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving > an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people > have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > The car should be out by 2016. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie > Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > electricity? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Wow, Peter! > Like minds huh? > I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Good afternoon one more time everyone, > > Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > > There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > technology > along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > track at > Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > ready been > demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > have driven > the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > unite and > work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > else to > insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > controllable by a > blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > protected. We > don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > and > empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > initiative. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > Amen, Patrick! > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Patrick Molloy > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > with you. > When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > to go, > don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > in the NFB > car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > the thing! > If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > from the > public and then give no explanation when it essentially > disappears. I'm not > saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > myself with > that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > and, with > some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > If you want > to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > more power to > you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > that many > people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > why blind > people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > the potential > of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > more or less > assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > us blind > people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > I decide > not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > found it > not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > that we as > blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > in one way > or another. > Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > people > when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > tired of > waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > practice! If > we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > should have > the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > Separate is not > equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > think it > ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > to at > least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > like our > brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > self-serving, > but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > can take a > bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > bus if we > don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > got time to > kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > the same > freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > the > realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > people. > Patrick > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of > Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > self > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > depending on > if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > Here > in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > FL > where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > So > yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > have > said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > along > the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > I'm > frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > allowfor > me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > thus > allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > non > self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > 40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > atx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:39:06 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:39:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Hi, all, I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve it. Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's something worth thinking about. Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things other people have said also. Peter, I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's released to the public? Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. Best, Kirt On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Arielle and everyone, > > Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to take > over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind > person to drive independently why should we be left out. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and > the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well > as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits > can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving > goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and > more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being > developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could > also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other > situations. > Arielle > > On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >> The car should be out by 2016. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >> electricity? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Wow, Peter! >> Like minds huh? >> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >> >> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >> >> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >> technology >> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >> track at >> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >> ready been >> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >> have driven >> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >> unite and >> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >> else to >> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >> controllable by a >> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >> protected. We >> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >> and >> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >> initiative. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> Amen, Patrick! >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Patrick Molloy >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >> with you. >> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >> to go, >> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >> in the NFB >> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >> the thing! >> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >> from the >> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >> disappears. I'm not >> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >> myself with >> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >> and, with >> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >> If you want >> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >> more power to >> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >> that many >> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >> why blind >> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >> the potential >> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >> more or less >> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >> us blind >> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >> I decide >> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >> found it >> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >> that we as >> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >> in one way >> or another. >> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >> people >> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >> tired of >> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >> practice! If >> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >> should have >> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >> Separate is not >> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >> think it >> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >> to at >> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >> like our >> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >> self-serving, >> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >> can take a >> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >> bus if we >> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >> got time to >> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >> the same >> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >> the >> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >> people. >> Patrick >> >> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >> seems >> like you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >> buy >> one if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >> and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >> want >> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >> override the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >> is >> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >> front of >> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >> speed >> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >> to >> walk, rode rage, and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >> override >> it when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >> brakes due >> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >> unexpectedly >> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >> to, >> pedestrians who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >> signal >> is on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> distracted drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >> eyes >> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >> upon >> unexpected hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >> ahead and >> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >> just >> don't want to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >> people, >> but we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >> buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >> need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >> to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of >> Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >> east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >> you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >> roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >> boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >> the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >> it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >> other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >> which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >> license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >> blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >> self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >> think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >> than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >> can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >> would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >> the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >> so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >> self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >> depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >> Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >> FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >> So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >> have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >> along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >> I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >> allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >> thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >> non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> 40gma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >> atx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> 0pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kingettr at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:44:53 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:44:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <516CAD15.40507@gmail.com> would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? active or not active, really does not matter to me From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:51:53 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:51:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: <516CAD15.40507@gmail.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CAD15.40507@gmail.com> Message-ID: Robert, I don't know of any… But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? active or not active, really does not matter to me > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:53:45 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:53:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I feel the same way about getting a Google car as I do about getting a bionic eye or an iPhone update. I'm interested, but not until it's been out long enough that the most obvious bugs have been identified and fixed, where it has a consistent track record of success and where the price is decent. There is a potential concern that if the Google car is initially only available to wealthy blind people, and if it helps them advance their employment prospects while leaving the average blind person struggling with public transit, it could increase the class divide within the blind community and perpetuate unemployment among those who have the least resources to find work. I don't think that's a reason to oppose the development of the car, but it's an issue that we should be aware of. Arielle On 4/15/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Hi, all, > I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal > insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but > just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person > evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, > either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we > behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want > respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve > it. > Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually > substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable > purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of > blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering > blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue > when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; > at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation > leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got > people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation > had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's > something worth thinking about. > Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price > became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang > thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. > I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things > other people have said also. > Peter, > I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I > say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if > you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't > think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do > things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several > years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly > expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six > figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most > working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to > be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of > money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't > working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the > barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social > security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that > sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all > the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are > employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just > like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes > to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car > payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a > diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How > is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to > afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's > released to the public? > Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices > for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. > Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living > on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. > Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person > will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Arielle and everyone, >> >> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to >> take >> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind >> person to drive independently why should we be left out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and >> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well >> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits >> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving >> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and >> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being >> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could >> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other >> situations. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>> The car should be out by 2016. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>> electricity? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Wow, Peter! >>> Like minds huh? >>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>> >>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>> >>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>> technology >>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>> track at >>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>> ready been >>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>> have driven >>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>> unite and >>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>> else to >>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>> controllable by a >>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>> protected. We >>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>> and >>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>> initiative. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Amen, Patrick! >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Patrick Molloy >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>> with you. >>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>> to go, >>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>> in the NFB >>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>> the thing! >>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>> from the >>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>> disappears. I'm not >>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>> myself with >>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>> and, with >>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>> If you want >>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>> more power to >>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>> that many >>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>> why blind >>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>> the potential >>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>> more or less >>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>> us blind >>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>> I decide >>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>> found it >>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>> that we as >>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>> in one way >>> or another. >>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>> people >>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>> tired of >>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>> practice! If >>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>> should have >>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>> Separate is not >>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>> think it >>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>> to at >>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>> like our >>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>> self-serving, >>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>> can take a >>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>> bus if we >>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>> got time to >>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>> the same >>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>> the >>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>> people. >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>> seems >>> like you >>> >>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>> buy >>> one if >>> >>> given a choice. >>> >>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>> paratransit >>> >>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>> and safe. >>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>> want >>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>> >>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>> override the >>> >>> car. >>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>> is >>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>> front of >>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>> speed >>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>> to >>> walk, rode rage, and >>> >>> drunk drivers. >>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>> override >>> it when obstacles arise. >>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>> brakes due >>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>> unexpectedly >>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>> to, >>> pedestrians who >>> >>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>> signal >>> is on >>> >>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>> eyes >>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>> upon >>> unexpected hazards. >>> >>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>> ahead and >>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>> just >>> don't want to >>> >>> be on the road with you. >>> >>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>> people, >>> but we >>> >>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>> buses I >>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>> need >>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>> to get >>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>> Dayton's bus >>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>> east-west, but >>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>> you if >>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>> roll >>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>> boomerang >>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>> the >>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>> it >>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>> other >>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>> which >>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>> license, or >>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>> blind >>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>> self-serving >>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>> think not >>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>> than >>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>> can >>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>> would be >>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>> the high >>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>> so why >>> not do it? >>> >>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>> self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>> depending on >>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>> Here >>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>> FL >>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>> So >>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>> have >>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>> along >>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>> I'm >>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>> allowfor >>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>> thus >>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>> non >>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>> atx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:56:15 2013 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:56:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fundraiser Question Message-ID: <029901ce3a45$94b9c4c0$be2d4e40$@gmail.com> Kat, The flash drives in the shape of the NFB's whozit logo were being sold by the Nebraska student division. I am sure that Karen Anderson Kea.anderson at gmail.com Could provide you more info and let you know if they are still available. Thanks, Sean From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 02:02:06 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:02:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CAD15.40507@gmail.com> Message-ID: This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At least that's how Gmail classified it. Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. Perhaps others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any lists for LGBT specifically. Arielle On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: > Robert, > I don't know of any… But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if it > might have been better to start your own new thread about this, instead of > changing the subject of the thread that already existed? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett > wrote: > >> would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? active >> or not active, really does not matter to me >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Apr 16 02:05:21 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:05:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> Hello Kirt, I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a statement I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; I'm not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it. Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when it comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position. when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; they are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to say, the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't require we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get the equipment. On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Hi, all, > I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal > insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but > just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person > evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, > either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we > behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want > respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve > it. > Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually > substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable > purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of > blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering > blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue > when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; > at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation > leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got > people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation > had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's > something worth thinking about. > Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price > became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang > thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. > I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things > other people have said also. > Peter, > I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I > say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if > you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't > think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do > things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several > years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly > expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six > figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most > working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to > be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of > money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't > working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the > barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social > security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that > sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all > the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are > employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just > like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes > to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car > payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a > diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How > is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to > afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's > released to the public? > Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices > for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. > Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living > on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. > Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person > will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Arielle and everyone, >> >> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to take >> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind >> person to drive independently why should we be left out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and >> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well >> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits >> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving >> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and >> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being >> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could >> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other >> situations. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>> The car should be out by 2016. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>> electricity? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Wow, Peter! >>> Like minds huh? >>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>> >>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>> >>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>> technology >>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>> track at >>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>> ready been >>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>> have driven >>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>> unite and >>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>> else to >>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>> controllable by a >>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>> protected. We >>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>> and >>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>> initiative. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Amen, Patrick! >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Patrick Molloy >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>> with you. >>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>> to go, >>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>> in the NFB >>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>> the thing! >>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>> from the >>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>> disappears. I'm not >>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>> myself with >>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>> and, with >>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>> If you want >>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>> more power to >>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>> that many >>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>> why blind >>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>> the potential >>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>> more or less >>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>> us blind >>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>> I decide >>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>> found it >>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>> that we as >>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>> in one way >>> or another. >>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>> people >>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>> tired of >>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>> practice! If >>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>> should have >>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>> Separate is not >>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>> think it >>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>> to at >>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>> like our >>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>> self-serving, >>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>> can take a >>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>> bus if we >>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>> got time to >>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>> the same >>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>> the >>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>> people. >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>> seems >>> like you >>> >>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>> buy >>> one if >>> >>> given a choice. >>> >>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>> paratransit >>> >>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>> and safe. >>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>> want >>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>> >>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>> override the >>> >>> car. >>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>> is >>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>> front of >>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>> speed >>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>> to >>> walk, rode rage, and >>> >>> drunk drivers. >>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>> override >>> it when obstacles arise. >>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>> brakes due >>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>> unexpectedly >>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>> to, >>> pedestrians who >>> >>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>> signal >>> is on >>> >>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>> eyes >>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>> upon >>> unexpected hazards. >>> >>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>> ahead and >>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>> just >>> don't want to >>> >>> be on the road with you. >>> >>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>> people, >>> but we >>> >>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>> buses I >>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>> need >>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>> to get >>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>> Dayton's bus >>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>> east-west, but >>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>> you if >>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>> roll >>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>> boomerang >>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>> the >>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>> it >>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>> other >>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>> which >>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>> license, or >>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>> blind >>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>> self-serving >>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>> think not >>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>> than >>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>> can >>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>> would be >>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>> the high >>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>> so why >>> not do it? >>> >>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>> self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>> depending on >>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>> Here >>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>> FL >>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>> So >>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>> have >>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>> along >>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>> I'm >>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>> allowfor >>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>> thus >>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>> non >>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>> atx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 02:19:57 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:19:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Tyler, I see where you're coming from. That's why I said "I don't know." I imagine goolge would have developed their car regardless, as it's not even technology that's meant primarily for blind people, but I'm not sure they would be working directly with organizations like NFB and ACB without the NFB blind driver challenge. I didn't mean to imply that google is only developing this car because it gives them a PR boost to help blind people; I just meant that, by getting blind people involved in the conversation, the NFB probably gave us a seat at the table, so to speak. Best, Kirt On 4/15/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Hello Kirt, > I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a statement > I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; I'm > not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to > get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it. > > Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that > helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when it > comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services > than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest > or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position. > > when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; they > are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra > work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to > do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to say, > the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions > and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't require > we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get > the equipment. > On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Hi, all, >> I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal >> insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but >> just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person >> evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, >> either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we >> behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want >> respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve >> it. >> Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually >> substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable >> purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of >> blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering >> blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue >> when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; >> at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation >> leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got >> people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation >> had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's >> something worth thinking about. >> Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price >> became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang >> thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. >> I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things >> other people have said also. >> Peter, >> I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I >> say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if >> you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't >> think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do >> things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several >> years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly >> expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six >> figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most >> working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to >> be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of >> money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't >> working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the >> barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social >> security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that >> sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all >> the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are >> employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just >> like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes >> to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car >> payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a >> diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How >> is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to >> afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's >> released to the public? >> Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices >> for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. >> Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living >> on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. >> Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person >> will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> Hello Arielle and everyone, >>> >>> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to >>> take >>> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind >>> person to drive independently why should we be left out. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and >>> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well >>> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits >>> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving >>> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and >>> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being >>> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could >>> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other >>> situations. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>> electricity? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Wow, Peter! >>>> Like minds huh? >>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>> >>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>> >>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>> technology >>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>> track at >>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>> ready been >>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>> have driven >>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>> unite and >>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>> else to >>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>> controllable by a >>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>> protected. We >>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>> and >>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>> initiative. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Patrick Molloy >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>> with you. >>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>> to go, >>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>> in the NFB >>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>> the thing! >>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>> from the >>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>> disappears. I'm not >>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>> myself with >>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>> and, with >>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>> If you want >>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>> more power to >>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>> that many >>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>> why blind >>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>> the potential >>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>> more or less >>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>> us blind >>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>> I decide >>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>> found it >>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>> that we as >>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>> in one way >>>> or another. >>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>> people >>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>> tired of >>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>> practice! If >>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>> should have >>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>> Separate is not >>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>> think it >>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>> to at >>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>> like our >>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>> self-serving, >>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>> can take a >>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>> bus if we >>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>> got time to >>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>> the same >>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>> the >>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>> people. >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>> seems >>>> like you >>>> >>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>> buy >>>> one if >>>> >>>> given a choice. >>>> >>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>> paratransit >>>> >>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>> and safe. >>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>> want >>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>> >>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>> override the >>>> >>>> car. >>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>> is >>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>> front of >>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>> speed >>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>> to >>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>> >>>> drunk drivers. >>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>> override >>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>> brakes due >>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>> unexpectedly >>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>> to, >>>> pedestrians who >>>> >>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>> signal >>>> is on >>>> >>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>> eyes >>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>> upon >>>> unexpected hazards. >>>> >>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>> ahead and >>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>> just >>>> don't want to >>>> >>>> be on the road with you. >>>> >>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>> people, >>>> but we >>>> >>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>> buses I >>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>> need >>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>> to get >>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>> Dayton's bus >>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>> east-west, but >>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>> you if >>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>> roll >>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>> boomerang >>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>> the >>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>> it >>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>> other >>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>> which >>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>> license, or >>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>> blind >>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>> self-serving >>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>> think not >>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>> than >>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>> can >>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>> would be >>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>> the high >>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>> so why >>>> not do it? >>>> >>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>> self >>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>> depending on >>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>> Here >>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>> FL >>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>> So >>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>> have >>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>> along >>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>> I'm >>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>> allowfor >>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>> thus >>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>> non >>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>> t104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>> 0eart >>>> hlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>> 40gma >>>> il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>> atx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>> 0pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 02:23:24 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:23:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CAD15.40507@gmail.com> Message-ID: Robert, I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I checked on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, separate. Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for something you really didn't do. Best, Kirt On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At > least that's how Gmail classified it. > Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT > division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays > outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. Perhaps > others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any > lists for LGBT specifically. > Arielle > > On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: >> Robert, >> I don't know of any… But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if it >> might have been better to start your own new thread about this, instead >> of >> changing the subject of the thread that already existed? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett >> wrote: >> >>> would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? >>> active >>> or not active, really does not matter to me >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 04:17:30 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 00:17:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I found the money issue to be of the utmost concern... we can sit and watch how both of these projects pan out, whether individually or if Google does decide to try and work with the NFB in some way to get the best of both prototypes, but the money is the biggest issue for me. I was so excited when the KNFB reader came out, but there was no way that I could have justified to myself, much less my parents, that the cost was worth the result. When you compare the price of the KNFB reader to most smart phones now, an IPhone seems like an investment. Perhaps it isn't totally fair to make that statement since smart phones weren't in full use like they are now at the time of the KNFB reader's hayday, but still the price was outrageous regardless. I would love to have this kind of car, but as Kirt said I don't even know how even in the best of circumstances I would be able to swallow the stickershock. Even if I get married and my husband and I were both able to bring in at least 60,000 a year, I'd have a hard time putting 6 figures down on one car. Compare that to the average sighted family who might have two or three cars... my mom, dad, and sister each have a car for my family and make that kind of money, but each car is from the 90's and was bought used. I don't think that the google cars would be very affordable at all unless Google were to charge for the system on top of the car dealer's cost. Now, if I were to buy one of these cars with the price only being about the same as the car plus a really nice laptop and some insurance for the system somewhere around 5 grand or less, that would be a little more understandable, even though it would still hurt the bank account. Arielle also brought up the idea of family's incurring costs. Not only would these costs possibly hinder families from buying the cars at all, but even if a family were to be in the position where they could afford a car it still wouldn't be equal to a sighted family. Just using my family as an example again, my mom and dad each drive themselves separately to work in their individual cars, and my sister has her own to get to school and back. If a blind couple were to buy a car, it might still l leave one of the two of them waiting for a bus or calling a cab, especially in situations where offices open at different times. E.G. my dad starts work at 7:30, and my mom doesn't start usually till 9:00. Had they been in this position they would have had to docide whether or not the person who needs to get to work first should take the car and drop the second person off at their office early, if they can even get in before it opens, or if the person who starts later should drop the earlier person off and drive back home. Either way, it would actually involve extra driving around back and forth, and it would also cause problems later on (say if dad gets off of work at 3:30 because he started first, but mom works till 5:00 and can't leave to pick him up). In order for this to truly work I think we would need to have prices at least somewhat similar to what the sighted pay for their cars; otherwise, it would just be a really expensive hassle in some cases. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome prospect and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out, but now that I think about it more I'm having a hard time justifying the future issues that might be byproducts of any custom-made self-driving car. On 4/15/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Tyler, > I see where you're coming from. That's why I said "I don't know." > I imagine goolge would have developed their car regardless, as it's > not even technology that's meant primarily for blind people, but I'm > not sure they would be working directly with organizations like NFB > and ACB without the NFB blind driver challenge. I didn't mean to > imply that google is only developing this car because it gives them a > PR boost to help blind people; I just meant that, by getting blind > people involved in the conversation, the NFB probably gave us a seat > at the table, so to speak. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/15/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Hello Kirt, >> I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a statement >> I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; I'm >> not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to >> get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it. >> >> Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that >> helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when it >> comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services >> than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest >> or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position. >> >> when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; they >> are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra >> work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to >> do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to say, >> the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions >> and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't require >> we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get >> the equipment. >> On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Hi, all, >>> I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal >>> insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but >>> just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person >>> evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, >>> either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we >>> behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want >>> respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve >>> it. >>> Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually >>> substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable >>> purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of >>> blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering >>> blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue >>> when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; >>> at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation >>> leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got >>> people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation >>> had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's >>> something worth thinking about. >>> Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price >>> became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang >>> thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. >>> I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things >>> other people have said also. >>> Peter, >>> I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I >>> say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if >>> you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't >>> think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do >>> things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several >>> years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly >>> expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six >>> figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most >>> working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to >>> be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of >>> money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't >>> working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the >>> barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social >>> security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that >>> sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all >>> the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are >>> employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just >>> like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes >>> to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car >>> payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a >>> diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How >>> is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to >>> afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's >>> released to the public? >>> Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices >>> for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. >>> Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living >>> on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. >>> Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person >>> will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Hello Arielle and everyone, >>>> >>>> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to >>>> take >>>> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind >>>> person to drive independently why should we be left out. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and >>>> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well >>>> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits >>>> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving >>>> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and >>>> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being >>>> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could >>>> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other >>>> situations. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>>>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>> electricity? >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>> >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>> technology >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>> track at >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>> ready been >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>> have driven >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>> unite and >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>> else to >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>> controllable by a >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>> protected. We >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>> and >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>> initiative. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>> with you. >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>> to go, >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>> in the NFB >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>> the thing! >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>> from the >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>> myself with >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>> and, with >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>> If you want >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>> more power to >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>> that many >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>> why blind >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>> the potential >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>> more or less >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>> us blind >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>> I decide >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>> found it >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>> that we as >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>> in one way >>>>> or another. >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>> people >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>> tired of >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>> practice! If >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>> should have >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>> Separate is not >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>> think it >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>> to at >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>> like our >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>> self-serving, >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>> can take a >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>> bus if we >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>> got time to >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>> the same >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>> the >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>> people. >>>>> Patrick >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>> seems >>>>> like you >>>>> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>> buy >>>>> one if >>>>> >>>>> given a choice. >>>>> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>> paratransit >>>>> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>> and safe. >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>> want >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>> override the >>>>> >>>>> car. >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>> is >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>> front of >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>> speed >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>> to >>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>> >>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>> override >>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>> brakes due >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>> unexpectedly >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>> to, >>>>> pedestrians who >>>>> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>> signal >>>>> is on >>>>> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>> eyes >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>> upon >>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>> ahead and >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>> just >>>>> don't want to >>>>> >>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>> people, >>>>> but we >>>>> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>> buses I >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>> need >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>> to get >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>> east-west, but >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>> you if >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>> roll >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>> boomerang >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>> the >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>> it >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>> other >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>> which >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>> license, or >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>> blind >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>> self-serving >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>> think not >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>> than >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>> can >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>> would be >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>> the high >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>> so why >>>>> not do it? >>>>> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>> self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>> depending on >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>> Here >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>> FL >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>> So >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>> have >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>> along >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>> I'm >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>> allowfor >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>> thus >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>> non >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>> 0eart >>>>> hlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>> 40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kingettr at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 04:20:51 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 23:20:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPhone 5 Unlimited talk, text and data plan via Straight Talk Wireless at Walmart In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <516CD1A3.1030501@gmail.com> Walmart again offers an iPhone 5 Unlimited talk, text and data plan via Straight Talk Wireless for $45. To get this plan, you must purchase an Apple iPhone 5 16GB Smartphone in Black or White for $649, the 32GB version in Black or White for $749, or 64GB version in Black or White for $849. Opt for free Site-to-Store pickup to dodge the shipping fee which starts at $2.97. Either way, over two years, it would mean substantial savings over regular, no-contract service. (The New York Times reported that you can save around $1,000 by switching to a pay-as-you-go plan.) Sales tax is added where applicable. http://www.walmart.com/cp/Apple-iPhone-Now-on-Straight-Talk/1101612?wmlspartner=NKa3hZyYoHA?wmlspartner=WZun10ETuFo&sourceid=42632426510587433895&affillinktype=10&veh=aff From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 05:01:58 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 23:01:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Why couldn't an autonomous car drive one spouse to work, then drive itself home to pick up the other spouse? It really changes the nature of the game when the car can drive itself, and I think in nearly all of these arguments we are forgetting this very important detail. On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I found the money issue to be of the utmost concern... we can sit and > watch how both of these projects pan out, whether individually or if > Google does decide to try and work with the NFB in some way to get the > best of both prototypes, but the money is the biggest issue for me. I > was so excited when the KNFB reader came out, but there was no way > that I could have justified to myself, much less my parents, that the > cost was worth the result. When you compare the price of the KNFB > reader to most smart phones now, an IPhone seems like an investment. > Perhaps it isn't totally fair to make that statement since smart > phones weren't in full use like they are now at the time of the KNFB > reader's hayday, but still the price was outrageous regardless. > > I would love to have this kind of car, but as Kirt said I don't even > know how even in the best of circumstances I would be able to swallow > the stickershock. Even if I get married and my husband and I were > both able to bring in at least 60,000 a year, I'd have a hard time > putting 6 figures down on one car. Compare that to the average > sighted family who might have two or three cars... my mom, dad, and > sister each have a car for my family and make that kind of money, but > each car is from the 90's and was bought used. I don't think that the > google cars would be very affordable at all unless Google were to > charge for the system on top of the car dealer's cost. Now, if I were > to buy one of these cars with the price only being about the same as > the car plus a really nice laptop and some insurance for the system > somewhere around 5 grand or less, that would be a little more > understandable, even though it would still hurt the bank account. > > Arielle also brought up the idea of family's incurring costs. Not > only would these costs possibly hinder families from buying the cars > at all, but even if a family were to be in the position where they > could afford a car it still wouldn't be equal to a sighted family. > Just using my family as an example again, my mom and dad each drive > themselves separately to work in their individual cars, and my sister > has her own to get to school and back. If a blind couple were to buy > a car, it might still l leave one of the two of them waiting for a bus > or calling a cab, especially in situations where offices open at > different times. E.G. my dad starts work at 7:30, and my mom doesn't > start usually till 9:00. Had they been in this position they would > have had to docide whether or not the person who needs to get to work > first should take the car and drop the second person off at their > office early, if they can even get in before it opens, or if the > person who starts later should drop the earlier person off and drive > back home. Either way, it would actually involve extra driving around > back and forth, and it would also cause problems later on (say if dad > gets off of work at 3:30 because he started first, but mom works till > 5:00 and can't leave to pick him up). In order for this to truly work > I think we would need to have prices at least somewhat similar to what > the sighted pay for their cars; otherwise, it would just be a really > expensive hassle in some cases. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome > prospect and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out, but now > that I think about it more I'm having a hard time justifying the > future issues that might be byproducts of any custom-made self-driving > car. > > On 4/15/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > Tyler, > > I see where you're coming from. That's why I said "I don't know." > > I imagine goolge would have developed their car regardless, as it's > > not even technology that's meant primarily for blind people, but I'm > > not sure they would be working directly with organizations like NFB > > and ACB without the NFB blind driver challenge. I didn't mean to > > imply that google is only developing this car because it gives them a > > PR boost to help blind people; I just meant that, by getting blind > > people involved in the conversation, the NFB probably gave us a seat > > at the table, so to speak. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/15/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > >> Hello Kirt, > >> I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a statement > >> I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; I'm > >> not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to > >> get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it. > >> > >> Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that > >> helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when it > >> comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services > >> than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest > >> or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position. > >> > >> when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; they > >> are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra > >> work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to > >> do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to say, > >> the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions > >> and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't require > >> we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get > >> the equipment. > >> On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>> Hi, all, > >>> I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal > >>> insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but > >>> just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person > >>> evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, > >>> either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we > >>> behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want > >>> respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve > >>> it. > >>> Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually > >>> substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable > >>> purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of > >>> blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering > >>> blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue > >>> when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; > >>> at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation > >>> leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got > >>> people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation > >>> had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's > >>> something worth thinking about. > >>> Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price > >>> became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang > >>> thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. > >>> I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things > >>> other people have said also. > >>> Peter, > >>> I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I > >>> say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if > >>> you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't > >>> think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do > >>> things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several > >>> years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly > >>> expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six > >>> figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most > >>> working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to > >>> be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of > >>> money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't > >>> working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the > >>> barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social > >>> security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that > >>> sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all > >>> the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are > >>> employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just > >>> like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes > >>> to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car > >>> payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a > >>> diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How > >>> is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to > >>> afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's > >>> released to the public? > >>> Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices > >>> for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. > >>> Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living > >>> on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. > >>> Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person > >>> will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. > >>> Best, > >>> Kirt > >>> > >>> On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >>>> Hello Arielle and everyone, > >>>> > >>>> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to > >>>> take > >>>> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a > blind > >>>> person to drive independently why should we be left out. > >>>> > >>>> Peter Donahue > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and > >>>> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well > >>>> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits > >>>> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving > >>>> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and > >>>> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being > >>>> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could > >>>> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other > >>>> situations. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> > >>>> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > >>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving > >>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people > >>>>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. > >>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie > >>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > >>>>> electricity? > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Wow, Peter! > >>>>> Like minds huh? > >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > >>>>> Thanks, Joshua > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > >>>>> > >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > >>>>> technology > >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > >>>>> track at > >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > >>>>> ready been > >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > >>>>> have driven > >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > >>>>> unite and > >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > >>>>> else to > >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > >>>>> controllable by a > >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > >>>>> protected. We > >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > >>>>> and > >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > >>>>> initiative. > >>>>> > >>>>> Peter Donahue > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Amen, Patrick! > >>>>> > >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>>>> Public Relations Committee > >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Patrick Molloy > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > >>>>> with you. > >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > >>>>> to go, > >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > >>>>> in the NFB > >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > >>>>> the thing! > >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > >>>>> from the > >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially > >>>>> disappears. I'm not > >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > >>>>> myself with > >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > >>>>> and, with > >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > >>>>> If you want > >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > >>>>> more power to > >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > >>>>> that many > >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > >>>>> why blind > >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > >>>>> the potential > >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > >>>>> more or less > >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > >>>>> us blind > >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > >>>>> I decide > >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > >>>>> found it > >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > >>>>> that we as > >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > >>>>> in one way > >>>>> or another. > >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > >>>>> people > >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > >>>>> tired of > >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > >>>>> practice! If > >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > >>>>> should have > >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > >>>>> Separate is not > >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > >>>>> think it > >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > >>>>> to at > >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > >>>>> like our > >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > >>>>> self-serving, > >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > >>>>> can take a > >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > >>>>> bus if we > >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > >>>>> got time to > >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > >>>>> the same > >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > >>>>> the > >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > >>>>> people. > >>>>> Patrick > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>>> Hi all, > >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > >>>>> seems > >>>>> like you > >>>>> > >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > >>>>> buy > >>>>> one if > >>>>> > >>>>> given a choice. > >>>>> > >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > >>>>> paratransit > >>>>> > >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > >>>>> and safe. > >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > >>>>> want > >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > >>>>> > >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > >>>>> override the > >>>>> > >>>>> car. > >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > >>>>> is > >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > >>>>> front of > >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > >>>>> speed > >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > >>>>> to > >>>>> walk, rode rage, and > >>>>> > >>>>> drunk drivers. > >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > >>>>> override > >>>>> it when obstacles arise. > >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > >>>>> brakes due > >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > >>>>> unexpectedly > >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > >>>>> to, > >>>>> pedestrians who > >>>>> > >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > >>>>> signal > >>>>> is on > >>>>> > >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. > >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > >>>>> eyes > >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > >>>>> upon > >>>>> unexpected hazards. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > >>>>> ahead and > >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > >>>>> just > >>>>> don't want to > >>>>> > >>>>> be on the road with you. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > >>>>> people, > >>>>> but we > >>>>> > >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > >>>>> Ashley > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > >>>>> buses I > >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > >>>>> need > >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > >>>>> to get > >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of > >>>>> Dayton's bus > >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > >>>>> east-west, but > >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > >>>>> you if > >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > >>>>> roll > >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > >>>>> boomerang > >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > >>>>> the > >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > >>>>> it > >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > >>>>> other > >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > >>>>> which > >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > >>>>> license, or > >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > >>>>> blind > >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > >>>>> self-serving > >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > >>>>> think not > >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > >>>>> than > >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > >>>>> can > >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > >>>>> would be > >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > >>>>> the high > >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > >>>>> so why > >>>>> not do it? > >>>>> > >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > >>>>> self > >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > >>>>> depending on > >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > >>>>> Here > >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > >>>>> FL > >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > >>>>> So > >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > >>>>> have > >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > >>>>> along > >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > >>>>> I'm > >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > >>>>> allowfor > >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > >>>>> thus > >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > >>>>> non > >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>>> t104 > >>>>> %40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Kaiti > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > >>>>> 0eart > >>>>> hlink.net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > >>>>> 40gma > >>>>> il.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>>>> m%40gmail.c > >>>>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > >>>>> atx.rr.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>> 0pccua.edu > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Take care, > >> Ty > >> http://tds-solutions.net > >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > >> that > >> dares not reason is a slave. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Tue Apr 16 05:16:27 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:16:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: I am not sure why all the talk about cost it is just like everything else some people can afford it and some cannot that doesn't mean it should not be available. Some people can afford Ferrari's, the vast majority of us cannot but that doesn't mean they should stop making them. My first apple 2e was $6000 now we have more computing power in our phones. things come out new yes only the very few can afford them but prices do come down. I just bought a 73 inch TV for $1300 in 1998 I paid $3500 for a 60 inch. For me I would rather pay for freedom to have the car and have a smaller home. Adn trust me right now we are in no position to buy an expensive car or any car right now but that doesn't mean it won't be possible down the road. On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I found the money issue to be of the utmost concern... we can sit and > watch how both of these projects pan out, whether individually or if > Google does decide to try and work with the NFB in some way to get the > best of both prototypes, but the money is the biggest issue for me. I > was so excited when the KNFB reader came out, but there was no way > that I could have justified to myself, much less my parents, that the > cost was worth the result. When you compare the price of the KNFB > reader to most smart phones now, an IPhone seems like an investment. > Perhaps it isn't totally fair to make that statement since smart > phones weren't in full use like they are now at the time of the KNFB > reader's hayday, but still the price was outrageous regardless. > > I would love to have this kind of car, but as Kirt said I don't even > know how even in the best of circumstances I would be able to swallow > the stickershock. Even if I get married and my husband and I were > both able to bring in at least 60,000 a year, I'd have a hard time > putting 6 figures down on one car. Compare that to the average > sighted family who might have two or three cars... my mom, dad, and > sister each have a car for my family and make that kind of money, but > each car is from the 90's and was bought used. I don't think that the > google cars would be very affordable at all unless Google were to > charge for the system on top of the car dealer's cost. Now, if I were > to buy one of these cars with the price only being about the same as > the car plus a really nice laptop and some insurance for the system > somewhere around 5 grand or less, that would be a little more > understandable, even though it would still hurt the bank account. > > Arielle also brought up the idea of family's incurring costs. Not > only would these costs possibly hinder families from buying the cars > at all, but even if a family were to be in the position where they > could afford a car it still wouldn't be equal to a sighted family. > Just using my family as an example again, my mom and dad each drive > themselves separately to work in their individual cars, and my sister > has her own to get to school and back. If a blind couple were to buy > a car, it might still l leave one of the two of them waiting for a bus > or calling a cab, especially in situations where offices open at > different times. E.G. my dad starts work at 7:30, and my mom doesn't > start usually till 9:00. Had they been in this position they would > have had to docide whether or not the person who needs to get to work > first should take the car and drop the second person off at their > office early, if they can even get in before it opens, or if the > person who starts later should drop the earlier person off and drive > back home. Either way, it would actually involve extra driving around > back and forth, and it would also cause problems later on (say if dad > gets off of work at 3:30 because he started first, but mom works till > 5:00 and can't leave to pick him up). In order for this to truly work > I think we would need to have prices at least somewhat similar to what > the sighted pay for their cars; otherwise, it would just be a really > expensive hassle in some cases. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome > prospect and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out, but now > that I think about it more I'm having a hard time justifying the > future issues that might be byproducts of any custom-made self-driving > car. > > On 4/15/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > Tyler, > > I see where you're coming from. That's why I said "I don't know." > > I imagine goolge would have developed their car regardless, as it's > > not even technology that's meant primarily for blind people, but I'm > > not sure they would be working directly with organizations like NFB > > and ACB without the NFB blind driver challenge. I didn't mean to > > imply that google is only developing this car because it gives them a > > PR boost to help blind people; I just meant that, by getting blind > > people involved in the conversation, the NFB probably gave us a seat > > at the table, so to speak. > > Best, > > Kirt > > > > On 4/15/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > >> Hello Kirt, > >> I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a statement > >> I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; I'm > >> not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to > >> get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it. > >> > >> Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that > >> helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when it > >> comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services > >> than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest > >> or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position. > >> > >> when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; they > >> are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra > >> work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to > >> do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to say, > >> the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions > >> and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't require > >> we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get > >> the equipment. > >> On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>> Hi, all, > >>> I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal > >>> insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but > >>> just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person > >>> evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, > >>> either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we > >>> behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want > >>> respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve > >>> it. > >>> Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually > >>> substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable > >>> purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of > >>> blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering > >>> blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue > >>> when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; > >>> at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation > >>> leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got > >>> people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation > >>> had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's > >>> something worth thinking about. > >>> Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price > >>> became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang > >>> thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. > >>> I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things > >>> other people have said also. > >>> Peter, > >>> I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I > >>> say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if > >>> you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't > >>> think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do > >>> things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several > >>> years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly > >>> expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six > >>> figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most > >>> working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to > >>> be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of > >>> money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't > >>> working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the > >>> barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social > >>> security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that > >>> sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all > >>> the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are > >>> employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just > >>> like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes > >>> to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car > >>> payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a > >>> diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How > >>> is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to > >>> afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's > >>> released to the public? > >>> Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices > >>> for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. > >>> Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living > >>> on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. > >>> Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person > >>> will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. > >>> Best, > >>> Kirt > >>> > >>> On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >>>> Hello Arielle and everyone, > >>>> > >>>> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to > >>>> take > >>>> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a > blind > >>>> person to drive independently why should we be left out. > >>>> > >>>> Peter Donahue > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and > >>>> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well > >>>> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits > >>>> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving > >>>> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and > >>>> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being > >>>> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could > >>>> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other > >>>> situations. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> > >>>> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > >>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving > >>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people > >>>>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. > >>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie > >>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > >>>>> electricity? > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Wow, Peter! > >>>>> Like minds huh? > >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > >>>>> Thanks, Joshua > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > >>>>> > >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > >>>>> technology > >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > >>>>> track at > >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > >>>>> ready been > >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > >>>>> have driven > >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > >>>>> unite and > >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > >>>>> else to > >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > >>>>> controllable by a > >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > >>>>> protected. We > >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > >>>>> and > >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > >>>>> initiative. > >>>>> > >>>>> Peter Donahue > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Amen, Patrick! > >>>>> > >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>>>> Public Relations Committee > >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Patrick Molloy > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > >>>>> with you. > >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > >>>>> to go, > >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > >>>>> in the NFB > >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > >>>>> the thing! > >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > >>>>> from the > >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially > >>>>> disappears. I'm not > >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > >>>>> myself with > >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > >>>>> and, with > >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > >>>>> If you want > >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > >>>>> more power to > >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > >>>>> that many > >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > >>>>> why blind > >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > >>>>> the potential > >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > >>>>> more or less > >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > >>>>> us blind > >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > >>>>> I decide > >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > >>>>> found it > >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > >>>>> that we as > >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > >>>>> in one way > >>>>> or another. > >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > >>>>> people > >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > >>>>> tired of > >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > >>>>> practice! If > >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > >>>>> should have > >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > >>>>> Separate is not > >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > >>>>> think it > >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > >>>>> to at > >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > >>>>> like our > >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > >>>>> self-serving, > >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > >>>>> can take a > >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > >>>>> bus if we > >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > >>>>> got time to > >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > >>>>> the same > >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > >>>>> the > >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > >>>>> people. > >>>>> Patrick > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>>> Hi all, > >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > >>>>> seems > >>>>> like you > >>>>> > >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > >>>>> buy > >>>>> one if > >>>>> > >>>>> given a choice. > >>>>> > >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > >>>>> paratransit > >>>>> > >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > >>>>> and safe. > >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > >>>>> want > >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > >>>>> > >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > >>>>> override the > >>>>> > >>>>> car. > >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > >>>>> is > >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > >>>>> front of > >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > >>>>> speed > >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > >>>>> to > >>>>> walk, rode rage, and > >>>>> > >>>>> drunk drivers. > >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > >>>>> override > >>>>> it when obstacles arise. > >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > >>>>> brakes due > >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > >>>>> unexpectedly > >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > >>>>> to, > >>>>> pedestrians who > >>>>> > >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > >>>>> signal > >>>>> is on > >>>>> > >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. > >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > >>>>> eyes > >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > >>>>> upon > >>>>> unexpected hazards. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > >>>>> ahead and > >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > >>>>> just > >>>>> don't want to > >>>>> > >>>>> be on the road with you. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > >>>>> people, > >>>>> but we > >>>>> > >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > >>>>> Ashley > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > >>>>> buses I > >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > >>>>> need > >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > >>>>> to get > >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of > >>>>> Dayton's bus > >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > >>>>> east-west, but > >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > >>>>> you if > >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > >>>>> roll > >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > >>>>> boomerang > >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > >>>>> the > >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > >>>>> it > >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > >>>>> other > >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > >>>>> which > >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > >>>>> license, or > >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > >>>>> blind > >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > >>>>> self-serving > >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > >>>>> think not > >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > >>>>> than > >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > >>>>> can > >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > >>>>> would be > >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > >>>>> the high > >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > >>>>> so why > >>>>> not do it? > >>>>> > >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > >>>>> self > >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > >>>>> depending on > >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > >>>>> Here > >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > >>>>> FL > >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > >>>>> So > >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > >>>>> have > >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > >>>>> along > >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > >>>>> I'm > >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > >>>>> allowfor > >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > >>>>> thus > >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > >>>>> non > >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>>> t104 > >>>>> %40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Kaiti > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > >>>>> 0eart > >>>>> hlink.net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > >>>>> 40gma > >>>>> il.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>>>> m%40gmail.c > >>>>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > >>>>> atx.rr.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>> 0pccua.edu > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Take care, > >> Ty > >> http://tds-solutions.net > >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > >> that > >> dares not reason is a slave. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 05:25:09 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 23:25:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <516CB1E1.80101@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Jamie, You have to buy the car first. I suppose you could go into debt for it if you like; all I'm saying is that, for the first few years this thing is out, it will probably be more expensive than a small house. Susanne, I'm not even remotely implying they shouldn't make the dang thing just because it will be freakishly expensive at first. All I'm saying is that almost all of us probably won't be able to buy this for years until after it comes out. I agree with both you and Katie actually, because I don't really think you two are contradicting each other. There's a reason most people didn't buy Apple @E computers; it's probably going to be the same with the first several models of this car. That's all I'm saying: don't bank on it coming out any time soon and don't count on being able to get one of these things from the get-go. Best, Kirt On 4/15/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I am not sure why all the talk about cost it is just like everything else > some people can afford it and some cannot that doesn't mean it should not > be available. Some people can afford Ferrari's, the vast majority of us > cannot but that doesn't mean they should stop making them. > > My first apple 2e was $6000 now we have more computing power in our phones. > things come out new yes only the very few can afford them but prices do > come down. I just bought a 73 inch TV for $1300 in 1998 I paid $3500 for a > 60 inch. > > For me I would rather pay for freedom to have the car and have a smaller > home. Adn trust me right now we are in no position to buy an expensive car > or any car right now but that doesn't mean it won't be possible down the > road. > > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I found the money issue to be of the utmost concern... we can sit and >> watch how both of these projects pan out, whether individually or if >> Google does decide to try and work with the NFB in some way to get the >> best of both prototypes, but the money is the biggest issue for me. I >> was so excited when the KNFB reader came out, but there was no way >> that I could have justified to myself, much less my parents, that the >> cost was worth the result. When you compare the price of the KNFB >> reader to most smart phones now, an IPhone seems like an investment. >> Perhaps it isn't totally fair to make that statement since smart >> phones weren't in full use like they are now at the time of the KNFB >> reader's hayday, but still the price was outrageous regardless. >> >> I would love to have this kind of car, but as Kirt said I don't even >> know how even in the best of circumstances I would be able to swallow >> the stickershock. Even if I get married and my husband and I were >> both able to bring in at least 60,000 a year, I'd have a hard time >> putting 6 figures down on one car. Compare that to the average >> sighted family who might have two or three cars... my mom, dad, and >> sister each have a car for my family and make that kind of money, but >> each car is from the 90's and was bought used. I don't think that the >> google cars would be very affordable at all unless Google were to >> charge for the system on top of the car dealer's cost. Now, if I were >> to buy one of these cars with the price only being about the same as >> the car plus a really nice laptop and some insurance for the system >> somewhere around 5 grand or less, that would be a little more >> understandable, even though it would still hurt the bank account. >> >> Arielle also brought up the idea of family's incurring costs. Not >> only would these costs possibly hinder families from buying the cars >> at all, but even if a family were to be in the position where they >> could afford a car it still wouldn't be equal to a sighted family. >> Just using my family as an example again, my mom and dad each drive >> themselves separately to work in their individual cars, and my sister >> has her own to get to school and back. If a blind couple were to buy >> a car, it might still l leave one of the two of them waiting for a bus >> or calling a cab, especially in situations where offices open at >> different times. E.G. my dad starts work at 7:30, and my mom doesn't >> start usually till 9:00. Had they been in this position they would >> have had to docide whether or not the person who needs to get to work >> first should take the car and drop the second person off at their >> office early, if they can even get in before it opens, or if the >> person who starts later should drop the earlier person off and drive >> back home. Either way, it would actually involve extra driving around >> back and forth, and it would also cause problems later on (say if dad >> gets off of work at 3:30 because he started first, but mom works till >> 5:00 and can't leave to pick him up). In order for this to truly work >> I think we would need to have prices at least somewhat similar to what >> the sighted pay for their cars; otherwise, it would just be a really >> expensive hassle in some cases. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome >> prospect and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out, but now >> that I think about it more I'm having a hard time justifying the >> future issues that might be byproducts of any custom-made self-driving >> car. >> >> On 4/15/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> > Tyler, >> > I see where you're coming from. That's why I said "I don't know." >> > I imagine goolge would have developed their car regardless, as it's >> > not even technology that's meant primarily for blind people, but I'm >> > not sure they would be working directly with organizations like NFB >> > and ACB without the NFB blind driver challenge. I didn't mean to >> > imply that google is only developing this car because it gives them a >> > PR boost to help blind people; I just meant that, by getting blind >> > people involved in the conversation, the NFB probably gave us a seat >> > at the table, so to speak. >> > Best, >> > Kirt >> > >> > On 4/15/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> >> Hello Kirt, >> >> I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a >> >> statement >> >> I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; >> >> I'm >> >> not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to >> >> get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it. >> >> >> >> Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that >> >> helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when >> >> it >> >> comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services >> >> than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest >> >> or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position. >> >> >> >> when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; >> >> they >> >> are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra >> >> work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to >> >> do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to >> >> say, >> >> the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions >> >> and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't >> >> require >> >> we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get >> >> the equipment. >> >> On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>> Hi, all, >> >>> I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal >> >>> insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but >> >>> just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that >> >>> person >> >>> evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, >> >>> either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we >> >>> behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want >> >>> respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve >> >>> it. >> >>> Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually >> >>> substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable >> >>> purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility >> >>> of >> >>> blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering >> >>> blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue >> >>> when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; >> >>> at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation >> >>> leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got >> >>> people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation >> >>> had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's >> >>> something worth thinking about. >> >>> Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price >> >>> became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang >> >>> thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. >> >>> I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things >> >>> other people have said also. >> >>> Peter, >> >>> I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I >> >>> say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but >> >>> if >> >>> you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't >> >>> think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do >> >>> things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several >> >>> years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly >> >>> expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six >> >>> figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most >> >>> working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to >> >>> be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind >> >>> of >> >>> money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't >> >>> working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the >> >>> barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social >> >>> security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that >> >>> sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear >> >>> all >> >>> the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are >> >>> employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just >> >>> like most working people in America. Most of that money probably >> >>> goes >> >>> to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car >> >>> payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably >> >>> a >> >>> diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. >> >>> How >> >>> is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to >> >>> afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's >> >>> released to the public? >> >>> Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices >> >>> for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. >> >>> Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living >> >>> on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. >> >>> Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person >> >>> will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. >> >>> Best, >> >>> Kirt >> >>> >> >>> On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>>> Hello Arielle and everyone, >> >>>> >> >>>> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need >> >>>> to >> >>>> take >> >>>> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a >> blind >> >>>> person to drive independently why should we be left out. >> >>>> >> >>>> Peter Donahue >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and >> >>>> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as >> >>>> well >> >>>> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits >> >>>> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving >> >>>> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, >> >>>> and >> >>>> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being >> >>>> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could >> >>>> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other >> >>>> situations. >> >>>> Arielle >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >> >>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >> >>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >> >>>>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>> From: Joshua Lester > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> > >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>> >> >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >> >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >> >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >> >>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >> >>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >> >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >> >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >> >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >> >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >> >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >> >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >> >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >> >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >> >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >> >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >> >>>>> electricity? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>> From: Joshua Lester > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> > >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Wow, Peter! >> >>>>> Like minds huh? >> >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >> >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >> >>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >> >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >> >>>>> >> >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >> >>>>> technology >> >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >> >>>>> track at >> >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >> >>>>> ready been >> >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >> >>>>> have driven >> >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >> >>>>> unite and >> >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >> >>>>> else to >> >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >> >>>>> controllable by a >> >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >> >>>>> protected. We >> >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >> >>>>> and >> >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >> >>>>> initiative. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Peter Donahue >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Amen, Patrick! >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> >>>>> Public Relations Committee >> >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>>> Patrick Molloy >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >> >>>>> with you. >> >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >> >>>>> to go, >> >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >> >>>>> in the NFB >> >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >> >>>>> the thing! >> >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >> >>>>> from the >> >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >> >>>>> disappears. I'm not >> >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >> >>>>> myself with >> >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >> >>>>> and, with >> >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >> >>>>> If you want >> >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >> >>>>> more power to >> >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >> >>>>> that many >> >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >> >>>>> why blind >> >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >> >>>>> the potential >> >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >> >>>>> more or less >> >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >> >>>>> us blind >> >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >> >>>>> I decide >> >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >> >>>>> found it >> >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >> >>>>> that we as >> >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >> >>>>> in one way >> >>>>> or another. >> >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >> >>>>> people >> >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >> >>>>> tired of >> >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >> >>>>> practice! If >> >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >> >>>>> should have >> >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >> >>>>> Separate is not >> >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >> >>>>> think it >> >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >> >>>>> to at >> >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >> >>>>> like our >> >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >> >>>>> self-serving, >> >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >> >>>>> can take a >> >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >> >>>>> bus if we >> >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >> >>>>> got time to >> >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >> >>>>> the same >> >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >> >>>>> the >> >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >> >>>>> people. >> >>>>> Patrick >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> >>>>> Hi all, >> >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >> >>>>> seems >> >>>>> like you >> >>>>> >> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >> >>>>> buy >> >>>>> one if >> >>>>> >> >>>>> given a choice. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> >>>>> paratransit >> >>>>> >> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >> >>>>> and safe. >> >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >> >>>>> want >> >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >> >>>>> override the >> >>>>> >> >>>>> car. >> >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >> >>>>> is >> >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >> >>>>> front of >> >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >> >>>>> speed >> >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >> >>>>> to >> >>>>> walk, rode rage, and >> >>>>> >> >>>>> drunk drivers. >> >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >> >>>>> override >> >>>>> it when obstacles arise. >> >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >> >>>>> brakes due >> >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >> >>>>> unexpectedly >> >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >> >>>>> to, >> >>>>> pedestrians who >> >>>>> >> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >> >>>>> signal >> >>>>> is on >> >>>>> >> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >> >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >> >>>>> eyes >> >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >> >>>>> upon >> >>>>> unexpected hazards. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >> >>>>> ahead and >> >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >> >>>>> just >> >>>>> don't want to >> >>>>> >> >>>>> be on the road with you. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >> >>>>> people, >> >>>>> but we >> >>>>> >> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> >>>>> Ashley >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >> >>>>> buses I >> >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >> >>>>> need >> >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >> >>>>> to get >> >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >> >>>>> Dayton's bus >> >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >> >>>>> east-west, but >> >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >> >>>>> you if >> >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >> >>>>> roll >> >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >> >>>>> boomerang >> >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >> >>>>> the >> >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >> >>>>> it >> >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >> >>>>> other >> >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >> >>>>> which >> >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >> >>>>> license, or >> >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >> >>>>> blind >> >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >> >>>>> self-serving >> >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >> >>>>> think not >> >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >> >>>>> than >> >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >> >>>>> can >> >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >> >>>>> would be >> >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >> >>>>> the high >> >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >> >>>>> so why >> >>>>> not do it? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >> >>>>> self >> >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >> >>>>> depending on >> >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >> >>>>> Here >> >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >> >>>>> FL >> >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >> >>>>> So >> >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >> >>>>> have >> >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >> >>>>> along >> >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >> >>>>> I'm >> >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >> >>>>> allowfor >> >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >> >>>>> thus >> >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >> >>>>> non >> >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> >>>>> t104 >> >>>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> Kaiti >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> >>>>> 0eart >> >>>>> hlink.net >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> >>>>> 40gma >> >>>>> il.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> >>>>> m%40gmail.c >> >>>>> om >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >> >>>>> atx.rr.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>>>> r%40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> >>>>> 0pccua.edu >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>>>> r%40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Take care, >> >> Ty >> >> http://tds-solutions.net >> >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >> >> he >> >> that >> >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From wmodnl at hotmail.com Tue Apr 16 05:40:26 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:40:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Just my own two sense: I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as drivers. I could just here the advertizement: Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need to be properly prioritized. Sent from my iPad On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" wrote: > Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > The car should be out by 2016. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > electricity? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Wow, Peter! > Like minds huh? > I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Good afternoon one more time everyone, > > Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > > There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > technology > along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > track at > Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > ready been > demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > have driven > the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > unite and > work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > else to > insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > controllable by a > blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > protected. We > don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > and > empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > initiative. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > Amen, Patrick! > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Patrick Molloy > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > with you. > When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > to go, > don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > in the NFB > car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > the thing! > If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > from the > public and then give no explanation when it essentially > disappears. I'm not > saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > myself with > that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > and, with > some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > If you want > to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > more power to > you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > that many > people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > why blind > people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > the potential > of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > more or less > assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > us blind > people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > I decide > not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > found it > not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > that we as > blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > in one way > or another. > Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > people > when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > tired of > waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > practice! If > we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > should have > the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > Separate is not > equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > think it > ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > to at > least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > like our > brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > self-serving, > but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > can take a > bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > bus if we > don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > got time to > kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > the same > freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > the > realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > people. > Patrick > > On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > seems > like you > > all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > buy > one if > > given a choice. > > I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > paratransit > > and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > and safe. > Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > want > to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > > I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > override the > > car. > I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > is > self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > front of > us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > speed > limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > to > walk, rode rage, and > > drunk drivers. > Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > override > it when obstacles arise. > I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > brakes due > to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > unexpectedly > turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > to, > pedestrians who > > are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > signal > is on > > thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > distracted drivers on cell phones. > All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > eyes > needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > upon > unexpected hazards. > > So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > ahead and > you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > just > don't want to > > be on the road with you. > > I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > people, > but we > > abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > buses I > have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > need > to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > to get > to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > destination for a while and then circling back because of > Dayton's bus > system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > east-west, but > sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > you if > the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > roll > with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > boomerang > around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > the > bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > it > self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > other > programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > which > more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > license, or > who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > blind > people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > self-serving > in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > think not > taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > than > efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > can > use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > would be > like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > the high > school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > so why > not do it? > > Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > > On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > self > serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > depending on > if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > Here > in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > FL > where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > So > yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > have > said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > along > the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > I'm > frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > allowfor > me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > thus > allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > non > self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > 40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > atx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 06:10:10 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 23:10:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the Google car. In-Reply-To: <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> References: <516ac6a3.6367ec0a.5f57.ffffae68@mx.google.com><516AC8CC.80703@gmail.com><365102029C3F4A21A8673082567D6A74@OwnerPC><000901ce396f$fe96eca0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><9DDDAFCD-9BD4-4E76-9228-7863F4CA5445@gmail.com> <516C3368.50604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <955958FFAF9F41D093AD0062BFF9C06B@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, I agree completely. We have moved on from a matter of NFB support to Mac computers are better than PCs! What is stopping the NFB from supporting both the NFB car and the Google car? Frankly, I would use the two cars in completely different ways. NFB car would be used for racing or recreational 4-wheeling where skill is the thrill. The Google car would be my reliable ride to people's houses. The same argument is raging in the sighted world, Would one rather trust a computer or their own skill. There are some people who are terrified of driving next to a robot and there are people who think having robots drive is the coolest thing since sliced bread. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but if one takes a look at the list of pros and cons they may be surprised to notice that the lists may not be what they expected. https://sites.google.com/site/unibathautonomouscars/services Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Robert William Kingett Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 10:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] the NFB car VS the google car. In reading this thread this morning, there's a lot of support for a car that isn't even hinting at what stage in the development it's resting on. Someone said that the car will be ready by 2016 but that can be dismissed simply, because, the fact that the NFB are not even releasing any information about the car and also about the technology because, apparently, they don't want to be like apple and have their stuff taken. If this is the case then how would you know that the technology will be ready in 2016? It doesn't make sense. If there's no more press releases about the subject, news coverage, updates on the email list, and yes I've been subscribed for about a month, TV coverage, anything. It's as if this car was like an amazing firework that faded away over time.so, if there's no progress indicator as to how far the technology is then, no, the car will not be ready by 2016. No one knows when this car will be ready. As far as safety, I have a few things to point out. I've seen this car in action. It's stunning, amazing, and epic, but it’s prone to a lot of accidents simply by the sheer notion that it's human operated. Plus, instead of having one piece of technology to worry about failing, the driver as to be aware of everything. This fosters greater responsibility, yes, but that comes bundled with an unseen price. For those who don't know, I'll talk about the car. And the challenge and weigh the consider and pros, my opinions, of course, based in observation alone. The challengeis not the development of an autonomous car that drives a blind person around; the “challenge” is to develop a nonvisual interface for a car that can convey real-time information about driving conditions to the blind so that we can use our own capacity to think and react to interpret these data and maneuver a car safely. You know how on this list even some blind people were like oh my god I don’t want to be alongside of a blind person driving! There could be accidents with the Google car! Wouldn't this car present even more accidents? The sheer idea of the Google car was to create polite software that follows the rules of the road, keeping people safe. I don’t want to or don't need to tell you all about the kind of technology that this sports because I've posted many, many, many, many, many, many news articles and videos on the subject as well as videos, even a really long documentary on the car. In the NFB car, as I have said, the driver has to be aware of everything… even, say pedestrian’s etc. machine can act way faster than man. You know all those scenarios that people posted here about worrying about people running out into the street, etc.? Did you all not read the last news article I posted? The car stopped when a squirrel skittered onto the street. With the NFB car that information needs to be conveyed to the driver quickly enough for the driver to react. The Google car reacts instantly, and it did. As I have said, the NFB car’s drivers rely on information that HAS to be conveyed to them so that they can make decisions, but what if not everything is conveyed to them at a very crucial point, say, when a squirrel skitters out onto the road. Amazingly, I got to wave my press pass like a drunken monkey to have a close up look at the car. I also kept an eye out for good-looking black men but I didn't see any. When will I ever find a beautiful husband? Sigh. I want to have someone who looks like Denzel Washington! Ahem! Anyway… A vibrating seat, called SpeedStrip, told Riccobono whether to speed up or slow down depending on what part of the seat rumbled. Gloves with tiny vibrating motors, called DriveGrip, let Riccobono know what to do with the steering wheel. What if one of these malfunctions but the rest work fine, and someone runs out into the street before the driver can react. With the Google car, this doesn't happen, correction, didn't. Plus, as many news articles say, there's failsafe in place when something malfunctions. The issue with the blind car, again, is the reaction time of the driver and this is a huge issue because humans are not the same. Now, onto actually driving. If the NFB car is prominent then there are a whole slew of things that will have to be made. Driving tests specifically, and also test courses would need to be built that specifically test the adaptive technology in the car and a more unique driving test specifically for the blind, not to mention a track. With the Google car, this isn't needed. Sure, I’d believe you'd have to be licensed to use the car but it will be a much more streamlined process. Also, what if you’re missing a glove, etc. you can't drive, can you? Sighted people can just hop in their cars and go. the NFB car has to be geared up to go. What if you’re disorganized and loose a glove? You have everything else but you don't have all the technology needed to drive, and you'd have to call a cab anyway. Okay maybe not just a glove but you get my point right? Now, about any route, say, to school, In order to actually drive this route, the blind driver needs to have a thorough understanding of their immediate environment. You'd have to map out the route before you get there. With the Google car, this isn't even an issue. You'd just hop in the car and go. By the way, the best thing about having a car that operates on cloud technology, you could actually control the car via phone. You don't have to be in the car. This is incredible, meaning, before you leave, you can input where you want to go as you’re sitting on your couch. Something that's not in the Google car that I believe should be, is something to tell you how long it will take you to get there. I don't know why Google didn't think of that. For movies, etc. so you'd know what time you'd have to leave, etc. The software that's on the Google car is cloud based, everything, so it will update wirelessly. This is badass, if you ask me. Its maps will update in real time, almost. This is also a bad thing, because, as of now, if it's heavy snow or heavy rain then you can't drive the car. But the software will be updated. How would you update the GPS in the NFB car? Google is thinking about easy future implementation, hence having a car that operates via the cloud and wireless technology. This will make upgrades easier. You won’t have to get a new model unless the engine fails or something like that. As of now there's no audible interface to start the car but there's a keyboard command, shift X, if you were listening in the last video that I posted about the BBC documentary involving the Google car. This technology will accommodate the blind fully, with more work, because, hell, a blind person has driven it! That shows me that Google is definitely thinking about the blind driving this car in the future. There aren’t a lot of road laws that would need to be in place. With the NFB car you'd have to take into drinking while driving, etc., accompanying the blindness. With the Google car you can be as drunk as you want to be and drive back home or just sit back and let the car drive you home. Laws wouldn't have to be made at all, really, unless for underage drivers and such. Humans are greedy creatures. The Google car isn't pushy. To prove this, I would say watch the videos about the Google car found below this huge message that I'm writing out. Humans merge so they can pass others, etc., thus, more roads would need to be built because the instinct of us people is to just merge onto the next lane and pass. The Google car is courteous, allowing people to pass, merging behind cars to free up road space, etc. of course, you can already set the GPS to take you the fastest route or… whatever option there is… laughing out loud. I want to talk about theft, just because absolutely no one has covered this before. With the NFB car if someone steals equipment, you can't drive it can you? You’d have to get it toad, all because you were missing the seat strips. Yes, people steal weird stuff. It happens. Also, if you’re going to a job interview, or something, where would you put all that gear after you get in there? You forget, sighted people can just hop in a car and go, thus stealing your car without even needing any special gloves. Since the Google car, right now, starts with a hotkey on a computer keyboard it wouldn't be hard to implement fingerprint technology to make sure this doesn't happen. By the way, I don’t want to sit for an extra 7 minutes making sure all my gear is on. This is just nit-picking, and doesn't make a logical argument but I'm going to say it anyway. If I'm on a date with some gorgeous guy I want to hold his hand while I'm driving with him. It’s cute and romantic. In the NFB car I wouldn't be able to do that, thus, I’d be pouting all the way to the restaurant. Seriously if you all, if you had a gorgeous man sitting next to you wouldn’t you want to hold his hand? LOL. The Google car allows me to do this with no problem. I want to touch my sweet chocolate dang it! LOL. I am a young man, after all, I have needs! Ahem, moving on. You won’t be able to control the NFB car via phone. With the Google car you will. You can have it drop you off and then park, and then swig by to pick you up. Since the car will operate via computer, there's no question that will be a feature. What if you have to take a lot of equipment for your job? You can't eat and drive in the NFB car, etc. I believe I have said everything that I want to say. For the rest, let me repeat multiple times, watch the videos I posted about the BBC and the blind driver driving the Google car. I've included them below, by the way. I've posted enough news articles about the subject but if you need more I'll send it along. I seriously don't understand why the NFB are not behind this. This is the definition of a new kind of independence. The NFB shouldn’t be trying to push their car out to people because they made their blind drivable car. If the NFB is all about equality then we as NFB people, and yes ACB people too, should back this car without question, not trying to be celebrities because we have also made a car. The more support from all caps, the sooner this will become a sweet, sweet reality. See below for the videos. Google car. BBC video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlJU7GgBMmY Google's self-driving car. Cell phone shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unS_WdnyDQY CNN test-drives Google’s "self-driving car" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpPPVvGqTY Google's Self-Driving Car Coming Soon? 2013. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2pRwcw8ew Blind man driving the Google car with audio description. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peDy2st2XpQ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Apr 16 11:05:27 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:05:27 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Why not fix the car so that we can drive it independently, without that extra gear? I'd rather be in control, than some computer that might have a glitch in it. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 4:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it seems like you all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd buy one if given a choice. I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden paratransit and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and safe. Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to override the car. I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and drunk drivers. Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to override it when obstacles arise. I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed to, pedestrians who are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk signal is on thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and distracted drivers on cell phones. All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act upon unexpected hazards. So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I just don't want to be on the road with you. I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind people, but we abandoned that project, probably cause of money. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. Here in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. So yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I have said before in a previous message, this technology is driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0eart hlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s atx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 11:01:08 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 07:01:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > Just my own two sense: > I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. > I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as drivers. > I could just here the advertizement: > Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need to be properly prioritized. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" wrote: > >> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >> The car should be out by 2016. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >> electricity? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Wow, Peter! >> Like minds huh? >> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >> >> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >> >> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >> technology >> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >> track at >> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >> ready been >> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >> have driven >> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >> unite and >> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >> else to >> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >> controllable by a >> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >> protected. We >> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >> and >> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >> initiative. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> Amen, Patrick! >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Patrick Molloy >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >> with you. >> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >> to go, >> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >> in the NFB >> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >> the thing! >> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >> from the >> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >> disappears. I'm not >> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >> myself with >> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >> and, with >> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >> If you want >> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >> more power to >> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >> that many >> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >> why blind >> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >> the potential >> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >> more or less >> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >> us blind >> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >> I decide >> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >> found it >> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >> that we as >> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >> in one way >> or another. >> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >> people >> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >> tired of >> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >> practice! If >> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >> should have >> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >> Separate is not >> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >> think it >> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >> to at >> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >> like our >> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >> self-serving, >> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >> can take a >> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >> bus if we >> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >> got time to >> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >> the same >> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >> the >> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >> people. >> Patrick >> >> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >> seems >> like you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >> buy >> one if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >> and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >> want >> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >> override the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >> is >> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >> front of >> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >> speed >> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >> to >> walk, rode rage, and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >> override >> it when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >> brakes due >> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >> unexpectedly >> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >> to, >> pedestrians who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >> signal >> is on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> distracted drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >> eyes >> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >> upon >> unexpected hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >> ahead and >> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >> just >> don't want to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >> people, >> but we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >> buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >> need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >> to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of >> Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >> east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >> you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >> roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >> boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >> the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >> it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >> other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >> which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >> license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >> blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >> self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >> think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >> than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >> can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >> would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >> the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >> so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >> self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >> depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >> Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >> FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >> So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >> have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >> along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >> I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >> allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >> thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >> non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> 40gma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >> atx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> 0pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 11:33:42 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 06:33:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? Message-ID: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I fully believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a place for blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with google or yahoo? That might be your best option! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At least that's how Gmail classified it. Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. Perhaps others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any lists for LGBT specifically. Arielle On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: Robert, I don't know of any But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, since they're more accessible. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I fully believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a place for blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with google or yahoo? That might be your best option! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At least that's how Gmail classified it. Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. Perhaps others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any lists for LGBT specifically. Arielle On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: Robert, I don't know of any… But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> Just curious, what makes Yahoo Groups more accessible than Google Groups? I had no problem with Google groups besides a Kaptcha, which unfortunately had to be solved by a sighted person. Does Yahoo not have a Kaptcha? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, since they're more accessible. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I > fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I > fully believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a > place for blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. > Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with > google or yahoo? That might be your best option! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:23:24 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Robert, > I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver > thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I > checked > on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, > separate. > Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for > something > you really didn't do. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject > line. At > least that's how Gmail classified it. > Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for > the GLBT > division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind > gays > outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. > Perhaps > others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't > host any > lists for LGBT specifically. > Arielle > > On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: > Robert, > I don't know of any… But good luck to you. However, I'm > wondering if it > might have been better to start your own new thread about this, > instead > of > changing the subject of the thread that already existed? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett > wrote: > > would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could > join? > active > or not active, really does not matter to me > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Apr 16 13:42:15 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:42:15 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> , <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Yahoo has an easy-to-understand audio captcha. The one on Google doesn't work. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of christopher nusbaum [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:01 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? Just curious, what makes Yahoo Groups more accessible than Google Groups? I had no problem with Google groups besides a Kaptcha, which unfortunately had to be solved by a sighted person. Does Yahoo not have a Kaptcha? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, since they're more accessible. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I > fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I > fully believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a > place for blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. > Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with > google or yahoo? That might be your best option! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:23:24 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Robert, > I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver > thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I > checked > on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, > separate. > Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for > something > you really didn't do. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject > line. At > least that's how Gmail classified it. > Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for > the GLBT > division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind > gays > outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. > Perhaps > others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't > host any > lists for LGBT specifically. > Arielle > > On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: > Robert, > I don't know of any… But good luck to you. However, I'm > wondering if it > might have been better to start your own new thread about this, > instead > of > changing the subject of the thread that already existed? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett > wrote: > > would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could > join? > active > or not active, really does not matter to me > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From kingettr at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 13:45:11 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:45:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <516D55E7.2050204@gmail.com> the reason that yahoo groups are more accessible because you can control amost every aspect of the group via email so you can bypass the captcha completely and never have to log onto the site to change delivery settings. From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Apr 16 13:54:31 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:54:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com><002e01ce3a37$5f5e7040$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <001301ce3aa9$ec0f9010$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good morning Arielle and everyone, It's also the responsibility for the so-called average blind persons to avail themselves of opportunities to develop the needed incomes for purchasing technology be it a screen reading program, a Braille display, or a blind drivable vehicle once they're on the market. Given sequestration and the potential for the loss of vital funds for vocational rehabilitation services we had better open our minds to new ways to fund the services and products we need to allow us to be independent and succeed in life. Peter Donahue who is charting a course for the day when if wife Mary still wishes to attend an NFB center to obtain the blindness skills she never learned earlier in life can simply write a check for paying for the training no VR agency required!----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I feel the same way about getting a Google car as I do about getting a bionic eye or an iPhone update. I'm interested, but not until it's been out long enough that the most obvious bugs have been identified and fixed, where it has a consistent track record of success and where the price is decent. There is a potential concern that if the Google car is initially only available to wealthy blind people, and if it helps them advance their employment prospects while leaving the average blind person struggling with public transit, it could increase the class divide within the blind community and perpetuate unemployment among those who have the least resources to find work. I don't think that's a reason to oppose the development of the car, but it's an issue that we should be aware of. Arielle On 4/15/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Hi, all, > I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal > insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but > just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person > evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults, > either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we > behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want > respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve > it. > Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually > substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable > purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of > blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering > blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue > when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not; > at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation > leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got > people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation > had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's > something worth thinking about. > Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price > became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang > thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say. > I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things > other people have said also. > Peter, > I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I > say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if > you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't > think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do > things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several > years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly > expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six > figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most > working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to > be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of > money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't > working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the > barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social > security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that > sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all > the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are > employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just > like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes > to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car > payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a > diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How > is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to > afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's > released to the public? > Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices > for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market. > Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living > on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them. > Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person > will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Arielle and everyone, >> >> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to >> take >> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind >> person to drive independently why should we be left out. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and >> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well >> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits >> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving >> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and >> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being >> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could >> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other >> situations. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>> The car should be out by 2016. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>> electricity? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Wow, Peter! >>> Like minds huh? >>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>> >>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>> >>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>> technology >>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>> track at >>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>> ready been >>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>> have driven >>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>> unite and >>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>> else to >>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>> controllable by a >>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>> protected. We >>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>> and >>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>> initiative. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Amen, Patrick! >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Patrick Molloy >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>> with you. >>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>> to go, >>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>> in the NFB >>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>> the thing! >>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>> from the >>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>> disappears. I'm not >>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>> myself with >>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>> and, with >>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>> If you want >>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>> more power to >>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>> that many >>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>> why blind >>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>> the potential >>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>> more or less >>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>> us blind >>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>> I decide >>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>> found it >>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>> that we as >>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>> in one way >>> or another. >>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>> people >>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>> tired of >>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>> practice! If >>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>> should have >>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>> Separate is not >>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>> think it >>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>> to at >>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>> like our >>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>> self-serving, >>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>> can take a >>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>> bus if we >>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>> got time to >>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>> the same >>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>> the >>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>> people. >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>> seems >>> like you >>> >>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>> buy >>> one if >>> >>> given a choice. >>> >>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>> paratransit >>> >>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>> and safe. >>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>> want >>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>> >>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>> override the >>> >>> car. >>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>> is >>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>> front of >>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>> speed >>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>> to >>> walk, rode rage, and >>> >>> drunk drivers. >>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>> override >>> it when obstacles arise. >>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>> brakes due >>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>> unexpectedly >>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>> to, >>> pedestrians who >>> >>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>> signal >>> is on >>> >>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>> eyes >>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>> upon >>> unexpected hazards. >>> >>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>> ahead and >>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>> just >>> don't want to >>> >>> be on the road with you. >>> >>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>> people, >>> but we >>> >>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>> buses I >>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>> need >>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>> to get >>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>> Dayton's bus >>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>> east-west, but >>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>> you if >>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>> roll >>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>> boomerang >>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>> the >>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>> it >>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>> other >>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>> which >>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>> license, or >>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>> blind >>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>> self-serving >>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>> think not >>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>> than >>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>> can >>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>> would be >>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>> the high >>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>> so why >>> not do it? >>> >>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>> self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>> depending on >>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>> Here >>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>> FL >>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>> So >>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>> have >>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>> along >>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>> I'm >>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>> allowfor >>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>> thus >>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>> non >>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>> atx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Apr 16 14:01:24 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:01:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good morning Chris and everyone, Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. Should you become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB developed when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo driver or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal cab driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver we use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly whenever we need transportation. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "christopher nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > Just my own two sense: > I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car > with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. > I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; > however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If > blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole > individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as drivers. > I could just here the advertizement: > Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call > (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need to > be properly prioritized. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" > wrote: > >> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex >> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous >> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage as >> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >> The car should be out by 2016. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >> electricity? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Wow, Peter! >> Like minds huh? >> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >> >> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >> >> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >> technology >> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >> track at >> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >> ready been >> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >> have driven >> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >> unite and >> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >> else to >> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >> controllable by a >> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >> protected. We >> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >> and >> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >> initiative. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> Amen, Patrick! >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> Patrick Molloy >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >> with you. >> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >> to go, >> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >> in the NFB >> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >> the thing! >> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >> from the >> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >> disappears. I'm not >> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >> myself with >> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >> and, with >> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >> If you want >> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >> more power to >> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >> that many >> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >> why blind >> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >> the potential >> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >> more or less >> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >> us blind >> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >> I decide >> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >> found it >> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >> that we as >> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >> in one way >> or another. >> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >> people >> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >> tired of >> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >> practice! If >> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >> should have >> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >> Separate is not >> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >> think it >> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >> to at >> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >> like our >> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >> self-serving, >> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >> can take a >> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >> bus if we >> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >> got time to >> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >> the same >> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >> the >> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >> people. >> Patrick >> >> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >> seems >> like you >> >> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >> buy >> one if >> >> given a choice. >> >> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> paratransit >> >> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >> and safe. >> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >> want >> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >> override the >> >> car. >> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >> is >> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >> front of >> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >> speed >> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >> to >> walk, rode rage, and >> >> drunk drivers. >> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >> override >> it when obstacles arise. >> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >> brakes due >> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >> unexpectedly >> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >> to, >> pedestrians who >> >> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >> signal >> is on >> >> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> distracted drivers on cell phones. >> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >> eyes >> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >> upon >> unexpected hazards. >> >> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >> ahead and >> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >> just >> don't want to >> >> be on the road with you. >> >> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >> people, >> but we >> >> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >> buses I >> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >> need >> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >> to get >> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> destination for a while and then circling back because of >> Dayton's bus >> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >> east-west, but >> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >> you if >> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >> roll >> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >> boomerang >> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >> the >> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >> it >> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >> other >> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >> which >> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >> license, or >> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >> blind >> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >> self-serving >> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >> think not >> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >> than >> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >> can >> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >> would be >> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >> the high >> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >> so why >> not do it? >> >> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >> self >> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >> depending on >> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >> Here >> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >> FL >> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >> So >> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >> have >> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >> along >> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >> I'm >> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >> allowfor >> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >> thus >> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >> non >> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> 40gma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >> atx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> 0pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 17:41:05 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:41:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: <516D55E7.2050204@gmail.com> References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <516D55E7.2050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: Robert, Best of luck to you in f you decide to make this. I might know some people who would be intrested, so let me know if anything ever comes of it. Out of curiosity, how easy is it to use the yahoo interface to manage the list so you don't need the captcha? Best, Kirt On 4/16/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > the reason that yahoo groups are more accessible because you can control > amost every aspect of the group via email so you can bypass the captcha > completely and never have to log onto the site to change delivery settings. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 17:54:30 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:54:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <516D55E7.2050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, The Yahoo interface is very easy to manage. In the group I run, I can use email commands to accept or reject members, but it's also just as easy to do this using the web interface. The only things I'm not sure about are the web features, such as polls, the calendar, uploading of photos, etc. I have those disabled, so I don't even mess with them. But all other administrative tasks, such as removing or banning members if necessary, and creating files to be sent to the list such as rules and such, are fully accessible. You only ever encounter one captcha when you first create the group. There's no way around this that I'm aware of, but this shouldn't matter too much. The audio captcha is very easy to understand. And, if for some reason you're having trouble with the audio, there's always Web Vissum. On 4/16/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Robert, > Best of luck to you in f you decide to make this. I might know some > people who would be intrested, so let me know if anything ever comes > of it. > Out of curiosity, how easy is it to use the yahoo interface to > manage the list so you don't need the captcha? > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/16/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> the reason that yahoo groups are more accessible because you can control >> amost every aspect of the group via email so you can bypass the captcha >> completely and never have to log onto the site to change delivery >> settings. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 17:59:00 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:59:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Hi all, I find myself agreeing with several points. First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and negatives to consider. On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good morning Chris and everyone, > > Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. Should you > > become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB developed > > when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo driver > > or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal cab > driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver we > use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly whenever > > we need transportation. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "christopher nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > >> Just my own two sense: >> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car >> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If >> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole >> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as drivers. >> I could just here the advertizement: >> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need to >> >> be properly prioritized. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >> wrote: >> >>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex >>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous >>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage as >>> >>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>> The car should be out by 2016. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>> electricity? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Wow, Peter! >>> Like minds huh? >>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>> >>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>> >>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>> technology >>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>> track at >>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>> ready been >>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>> have driven >>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>> unite and >>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>> else to >>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>> controllable by a >>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>> protected. We >>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>> and >>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>> initiative. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> Amen, Patrick! >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> Patrick Molloy >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>> with you. >>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>> to go, >>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>> in the NFB >>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>> the thing! >>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>> from the >>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>> disappears. I'm not >>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>> myself with >>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>> and, with >>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>> If you want >>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>> more power to >>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>> that many >>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>> why blind >>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>> the potential >>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>> more or less >>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>> us blind >>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>> I decide >>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>> found it >>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>> that we as >>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>> in one way >>> or another. >>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>> people >>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>> tired of >>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>> practice! If >>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>> should have >>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>> Separate is not >>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>> think it >>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>> to at >>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>> like our >>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>> self-serving, >>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>> can take a >>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>> bus if we >>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>> got time to >>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>> the same >>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>> the >>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>> people. >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>> seems >>> like you >>> >>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>> buy >>> one if >>> >>> given a choice. >>> >>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>> paratransit >>> >>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>> and safe. >>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>> want >>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>> >>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>> override the >>> >>> car. >>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>> is >>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>> front of >>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>> speed >>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>> to >>> walk, rode rage, and >>> >>> drunk drivers. >>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>> override >>> it when obstacles arise. >>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>> brakes due >>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>> unexpectedly >>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>> to, >>> pedestrians who >>> >>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>> signal >>> is on >>> >>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>> eyes >>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>> upon >>> unexpected hazards. >>> >>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>> ahead and >>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>> just >>> don't want to >>> >>> be on the road with you. >>> >>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>> people, >>> but we >>> >>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>> buses I >>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>> need >>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>> to get >>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>> Dayton's bus >>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>> east-west, but >>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>> you if >>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>> roll >>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>> boomerang >>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>> the >>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>> it >>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>> other >>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>> which >>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>> license, or >>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>> blind >>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>> self-serving >>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>> think not >>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>> than >>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>> can >>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>> would be >>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>> the high >>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>> so why >>> not do it? >>> >>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>> >>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>> self >>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>> depending on >>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>> Here >>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>> FL >>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>> So >>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>> have >>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>> along >>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>> I'm >>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>> allowfor >>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>> thus >>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>> non >>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104 >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>> atx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>> 0pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 18:32:29 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:32:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] College website accessibility in the northwest Message-ID: Hi, If you attend school in the northwest, I would love to hear from you about your experiences with your college's website accessibility. This can include using the college's website as well as any educational platforms the school contracts with. Thanks. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 19:11:18 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:11:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <516D55E7.2050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Although I am not a member of the lgbt community, I fully support this and think it would be a great idea! I've found google and yahoo groups very easy to use. I liked google a little better myself because my yahoo web service was weird on some pages and google was really easy to read. It sounds like how it worked for me was a glitch though, which is good.. BTW, it's "Pride week" at my university. This year's theme is acceptance. Yesterday a bunch of student organizations were handing out free T-Shirts that said, "Gay? I'm cool with that," on them. As with blindness and other disabilities, the public has a long way to go in truly accepting people of any minority, including LGBT, and it was nice to see some awareness and messages of acceptance being spread around campus. On 4/16/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Hi, > The Yahoo interface is very easy to manage. In the group I run, I can > use email commands to accept or reject members, but it's also just as > easy to do this using the web interface. The only things I'm not sure > about are the web features, such as polls, the calendar, uploading of > photos, etc. I have those disabled, so I don't even mess with them. > But all other administrative tasks, such as removing or banning > members if necessary, and creating files to be sent to the list such > as rules and such, are fully accessible. > You only ever encounter one captcha when you first create the group. > There's no way around this that I'm aware of, but this shouldn't > matter too much. The audio captcha is very easy to understand. And, if > for some reason you're having trouble with the audio, there's always > Web Vissum. > > On 4/16/13, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Robert, >> Best of luck to you in f you decide to make this. I might know some >> people who would be intrested, so let me know if anything ever comes >> of it. >> Out of curiosity, how easy is it to use the yahoo interface to >> manage the list so you don't need the captcha? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/16/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> the reason that yahoo groups are more accessible because you can control >>> amost every aspect of the group via email so you can bypass the captcha >>> completely and never have to log onto the site to change delivery >>> settings. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kingettr at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 21:27:41 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:27:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <516D55E7.2050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516DC24D.1030903@gmail.com> thanks. i will make a yahoo group From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 21:31:07 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:31:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: <516DC24D.1030903@gmail.com> References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <516D55E7.2050204@gmail.com> <516DC24D.1030903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b601ce3ae9$b519c900$1f4d5b00$@gmail.com> Robert, Please let me know when this list is created; I will try to publicize it as best I can here in Maryland. Thanks, Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:28 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? thanks. i will make a yahoo group _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 21:39:15 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:39:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> , <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <00b701ce3aea$d81cafc0$88560f40$@gmail.com> Interesting... I didn't know there was such a thing as an understandable audio Kaptcha. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? Yahoo has an easy-to-understand audio captcha. The one on Google doesn't work. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of christopher nusbaum [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:01 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? Just curious, what makes Yahoo Groups more accessible than Google Groups? I had no problem with Google groups besides a Kaptcha, which unfortunately had to be solved by a sighted person. Does Yahoo not have a Kaptcha? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, since they're more accessible. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist > [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I > fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I fully > believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a place for > blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. > Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with google > or yahoo? That might be your best option! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Robert, > I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver > thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I checked > on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, separate. > Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for something > you really didn't do. > Best, > Kirt > > On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At > least that's how Gmail classified it. > Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT > division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays > outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. > Perhaps > others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any > lists for LGBT specifically. > Arielle > > On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: > Robert, > I don't know of any. But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if > it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, > instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett > wrote: > > would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? > active > or not active, really does not matter to me > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > aedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From gloria.graves at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 23:42:09 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:42:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] I-pads Message-ID: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> Hi all, I am looking into purchasing a I-pad. Can anyone give me any suggestions as to which model is better? Thanks, Gloria From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 22:07:30 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:07:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: <00b701ce3aea$d81cafc0$88560f40$@gmail.com> References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <00b701ce3aea$d81cafc0$88560f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Haha, yes, there is. Basically, the Yahoo captcha uses these synthetic children's voices which, truth be told, sound like some kind of nightmare kids straight out of Children of the Corn or something, lol! the point is, they say a few numbers, you type them in, and there's really no way to mistake what numbers are said, unless maybe you have a hearing disability or something. On 4/16/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Interesting... I didn't know there was such a thing as an understandable > audio Kaptcha. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:42 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Yahoo has an easy-to-understand audio captcha. > The one on Google doesn't work. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of christopher nusbaum > [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:01 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Just curious, what makes Yahoo Groups more accessible than Google Groups? I > had no problem with Google groups besides a Kaptcha, which unfortunately > had > to be solved by a sighted person. Does Yahoo not have a Kaptcha? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, > since they're more accessible. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >> >> Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I >> fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I fully >> believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a place for >> blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. >> Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with google >> or yahoo? That might be your best option! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >> >> Robert, >> I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver >> thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I checked >> on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, separate. >> Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for something >> you really didn't do. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At >> least that's how Gmail classified it. >> Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT >> division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays >> outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. >> Perhaps >> others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any >> lists for LGBT specifically. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: >> Robert, >> I don't know of any. But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if >> it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, >> instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett >> > wrote: >> >> would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? >> active >> or not active, really does not matter to me >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> aedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o > nmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 23:02:40 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:02:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Brailler to Donate to Blind Child in Guatemala Message-ID: Hi all, I am on another list with a mother of a blind 3-year-old girl living in Guatemala. She is trying to find an affordable Braille-writing device for her daughter to use to learn Braille. She says that in Guatemala most blind children are not mainstreamed, but she has found teachers who are willing to teach her daughter in a mainstreamed situation. However, the teachers aren't knowledgeable in Braille. If anyone has a used Perkins Brailler they'd be willing to donate to this family, or advice about other low-cost ways she can learn Braille, please communicate with her privately at erickaoliva73 at yahoo.com or contact me privately at arielle71 at gmail.com I have suggested a slate and stylus and she may already be using one, but I know that it is harder to get immediate feedback on one's writing when using a slate, so other options might be preferred at this stage. Thanks, Arielle From juanitatighan at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 00:29:59 2013 From: juanitatighan at gmail.com (Jane) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:29:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] I-pads In-Reply-To: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> References: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> Message-ID: <6DA0DAA1-5F00-41A7-B6E6-889ABAAFF15D@gmail.com> I have two iPads. The first is a full-sized iPad 1St gen with wifi and celular. While it's probably chaper, I wouldn't get that one now. I also have an iPad Mini with celular and wifi. That is definitely a good deal. It's small enough to fit in a purse. It's very light. Typing on-screen is pretty easy with the full-sized on-screen keyboard. It's as if you are typing on a regular keyboard if you are used to touch-typing. Either way, I'd get a bluetooth keyboard or a Braille display like a Refreshabraille 18, because on-screen keyboard entry is not going to cut it for taking notes for work or school or details for roleplay your'e doing. *grin* I always say get the top-of-the-line model with 64GB and both celular and wifi because ther may be times when you will want to have cellular data on, and you can do that for as little as $15 a month, plus, you're not locked into a contract, you just pay to have it turned on when you need it. We turned on all our iPads when we went on vacation. We did not need it often, but it was good to have the option, in case something went wrong or we got separated and needed to contact each other via the Share Location in Maps along with the Messages app. Jane On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:42 PM, "Gloria G" wrote: > Hi all, > I am looking into purchasing a I-pad. Can anyone give me any suggestions as to which model is better? > Thanks, > Gloria > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 23:13:21 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:13:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. Arielle On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I find myself agreeing with several points. > > First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into > perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not > be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working > families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different > places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing > is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price > is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this > car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could > very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, > for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely > and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. > Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or > anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. > And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the > car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, > since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car > dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of > driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives > in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five > miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but > just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person > needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the > office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to > drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight > needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and > another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other > person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the > couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day > going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, > and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less > emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying > was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars > would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, > otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already > heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. > I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top > priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a > negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some > people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which > the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these > statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between > the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could > in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the > following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you > once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you > drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our > area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping > to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation > of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the > interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the > intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of > the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and > negatives to consider. > > On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Good morning Chris and everyone, >> >> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. Should >> you >> >> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >> developed >> >> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >> driver >> >> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal cab >> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver we >> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >> whenever >> >> we need transportation. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "christopher nusbaum" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >> >>> Just my own two sense: >>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car >>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If >>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole >>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>> drivers. >>> I could just here the advertizement: >>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need >>> to >>> >>> be properly prioritized. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex >>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous >>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>> as >>>> >>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>> electricity? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Wow, Peter! >>>> Like minds huh? >>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>> >>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>> >>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>> technology >>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>> track at >>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>> ready been >>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>> have driven >>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>> unite and >>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>> else to >>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>> controllable by a >>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>> protected. We >>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>> and >>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>> initiative. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Patrick Molloy >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>> with you. >>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>> to go, >>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>> in the NFB >>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>> the thing! >>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>> from the >>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>> disappears. I'm not >>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>> myself with >>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>> and, with >>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>> If you want >>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>> more power to >>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>> that many >>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>> why blind >>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>> the potential >>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>> more or less >>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>> us blind >>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>> I decide >>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>> found it >>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>> that we as >>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>> in one way >>>> or another. >>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>> people >>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>> tired of >>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>> practice! If >>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>> should have >>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>> Separate is not >>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>> think it >>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>> to at >>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>> like our >>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>> self-serving, >>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>> can take a >>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>> bus if we >>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>> got time to >>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>> the same >>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>> the >>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>> people. >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>> seems >>>> like you >>>> >>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>> buy >>>> one if >>>> >>>> given a choice. >>>> >>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>> paratransit >>>> >>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>> and safe. >>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>> want >>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>> >>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>> override the >>>> >>>> car. >>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>> is >>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>> front of >>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>> speed >>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>> to >>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>> >>>> drunk drivers. >>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>> override >>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>> brakes due >>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>> unexpectedly >>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>> to, >>>> pedestrians who >>>> >>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>> signal >>>> is on >>>> >>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>> eyes >>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>> upon >>>> unexpected hazards. >>>> >>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>> ahead and >>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>> just >>>> don't want to >>>> >>>> be on the road with you. >>>> >>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>> people, >>>> but we >>>> >>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>> buses I >>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>> need >>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>> to get >>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>> Dayton's bus >>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>> east-west, but >>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>> you if >>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>> roll >>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>> boomerang >>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>> the >>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>> it >>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>> other >>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>> which >>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>> license, or >>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>> blind >>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>> self-serving >>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>> think not >>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>> than >>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>> can >>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>> would be >>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>> the high >>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>> so why >>>> not do it? >>>> >>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>> self >>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>> depending on >>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>> Here >>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>> FL >>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>> So >>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>> have >>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>> along >>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>> I'm >>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>> allowfor >>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>> thus >>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>> non >>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>> t104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>> 0eart >>>> hlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>> 40gma >>>> il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>> atx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>> 0pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 00:04:00 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:04:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB LGBTQ Group In-Reply-To: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> References: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> Message-ID: <516DE6F0.2030805@gmail.com> I have created the group. to subscribe and bypass the captcha, use the email below. nfblgbt-subscribe at yahoogroups.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Wed Apr 17 01:09:54 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 01:09:54 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> , Message-ID: Hi Arielle! You make a great point here! I told you that Rehab would get me a Braille Note, a couple of months ago! Now, they're wanting me to go all the way to Little Rock, AR, (2 hours away from here,) for another evaluation, before they even consider it! Why won't 2009's evaluation suffice? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Arielle Silverman [arielle71 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:13 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. Arielle On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I find myself agreeing with several points. > > First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into > perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not > be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working > families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different > places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing > is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price > is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this > car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could > very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, > for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely > and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. > Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or > anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. > And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the > car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, > since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car > dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of > driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives > in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five > miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but > just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person > needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the > office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to > drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight > needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and > another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other > person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the > couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day > going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, > and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less > emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying > was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars > would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, > otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already > heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. > I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top > priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a > negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some > people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which > the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these > statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between > the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could > in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the > following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you > once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you > drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our > area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping > to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation > of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the > interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the > intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of > the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and > negatives to consider. > > On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Good morning Chris and everyone, >> >> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. Should >> you >> >> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >> developed >> >> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >> driver >> >> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal cab >> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver we >> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >> whenever >> >> we need transportation. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "christopher nusbaum" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> >> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >> >>> Just my own two sense: >>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car >>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If >>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole >>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>> drivers. >>> I could just here the advertizement: >>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need >>> to >>> >>> be properly prioritized. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex >>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an autonomous >>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>> as >>>> >>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>> electricity? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Wow, Peter! >>>> Like minds huh? >>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>> >>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>> >>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>> technology >>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>> track at >>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>> ready been >>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>> have driven >>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>> unite and >>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>> else to >>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>> controllable by a >>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>> protected. We >>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>> and >>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>> initiative. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Patrick Molloy >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>> with you. >>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>> to go, >>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>> in the NFB >>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>> the thing! >>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>> from the >>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>> disappears. I'm not >>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>> myself with >>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>> and, with >>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>> If you want >>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>> more power to >>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>> that many >>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>> why blind >>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>> the potential >>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>> more or less >>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>> us blind >>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>> I decide >>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>> found it >>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>> that we as >>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>> in one way >>>> or another. >>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>> people >>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>> tired of >>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>> practice! If >>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>> should have >>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>> Separate is not >>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>> think it >>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>> to at >>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>> like our >>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>> self-serving, >>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>> can take a >>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>> bus if we >>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>> got time to >>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>> the same >>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>> the >>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>> people. >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>> seems >>>> like you >>>> >>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>> buy >>>> one if >>>> >>>> given a choice. >>>> >>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>> paratransit >>>> >>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>> and safe. >>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>> want >>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>> >>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>> override the >>>> >>>> car. >>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>> is >>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>> front of >>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>> speed >>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>> to >>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>> >>>> drunk drivers. >>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>> override >>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>> brakes due >>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>> unexpectedly >>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>> to, >>>> pedestrians who >>>> >>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>> signal >>>> is on >>>> >>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>> eyes >>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>> upon >>>> unexpected hazards. >>>> >>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>> ahead and >>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>> just >>>> don't want to >>>> >>>> be on the road with you. >>>> >>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>> people, >>>> but we >>>> >>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>> buses I >>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>> need >>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>> to get >>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>> Dayton's bus >>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>> east-west, but >>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>> you if >>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>> roll >>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>> boomerang >>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>> the >>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>> it >>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>> other >>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>> which >>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>> license, or >>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>> blind >>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>> self-serving >>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>> think not >>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>> than >>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>> can >>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>> would be >>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>> the high >>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>> so why >>>> not do it? >>>> >>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>> >>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>> self >>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>> depending on >>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>> Here >>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>> FL >>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>> So >>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>> have >>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>> along >>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>> I'm >>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>> allowfor >>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>> thus >>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>> non >>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>> t104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>> 0eart >>>> hlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>> 40gma >>>> il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>> atx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>> 0pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 01:12:35 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:12:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] I-pads In-Reply-To: <6DA0DAA1-5F00-41A7-B6E6-889ABAAFF15D@gmail.com> References: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> <6DA0DAA1-5F00-41A7-B6E6-889ABAAFF15D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516DF703.7000305@gmail.com> or get an Iphone on straight talk so you can have $45 a mont for everything. From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 01:14:42 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:14:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Hi all, That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google > Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and > such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase > employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of > us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think > you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, > or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied > directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending > over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor > idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. > Arielle > > On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I find myself agreeing with several points. >> >> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >> negatives to consider. >> >> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>> >>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. Should >>> you >>> >>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>> developed >>> >>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>> driver >>> >>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>> cab >>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>> we >>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>> whenever >>> >>> we need transportation. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>> >>>> Just my own two sense: >>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car >>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If >>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole >>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>> drivers. >>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need >>>> to >>>> >>>> be properly prioritized. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex >>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>> autonomous >>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>> as >>>>> >>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>> electricity? >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>> >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>> technology >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>> track at >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>> ready been >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>> have driven >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>> unite and >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>> else to >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>> controllable by a >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>> protected. We >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>> and >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>> initiative. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>> with you. >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>> to go, >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>> in the NFB >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>> the thing! >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>> from the >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>> myself with >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>> and, with >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>> If you want >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>> more power to >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>> that many >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>> why blind >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>> the potential >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>> more or less >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>> us blind >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>> I decide >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>> found it >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>> that we as >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>> in one way >>>>> or another. >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>> people >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>> tired of >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>> practice! If >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>> should have >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>> Separate is not >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>> think it >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>> to at >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>> like our >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>> self-serving, >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>> can take a >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>> bus if we >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>> got time to >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>> the same >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>> the >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>> people. >>>>> Patrick >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>> seems >>>>> like you >>>>> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>> buy >>>>> one if >>>>> >>>>> given a choice. >>>>> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>> paratransit >>>>> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>> and safe. >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>> want >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>> override the >>>>> >>>>> car. >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>> is >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>> front of >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>> speed >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>> to >>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>> >>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>> override >>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>> brakes due >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>> unexpectedly >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>> to, >>>>> pedestrians who >>>>> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>> signal >>>>> is on >>>>> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>> eyes >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>> upon >>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>> ahead and >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>> just >>>>> don't want to >>>>> >>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>> people, >>>>> but we >>>>> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>> buses I >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>> need >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>> to get >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>> east-west, but >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>> you if >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>> roll >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>> boomerang >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>> the >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>> it >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>> other >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>> which >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>> license, or >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>> blind >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>> self-serving >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>> think not >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>> than >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>> can >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>> would be >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>> the high >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>> so why >>>>> not do it? >>>>> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>> self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>> depending on >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>> Here >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>> FL >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>> So >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>> have >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>> along >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>> I'm >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>> allowfor >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>> thus >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>> non >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>> 0eart >>>>> hlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>> 40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 01:18:00 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:18:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] I-pads In-Reply-To: <516DF703.7000305@gmail.com> References: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> <6DA0DAA1-5F00-41A7-B6E6-889ABAAFF15D@gmail.com> <516DF703.7000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I personally just have an Iphone since it can do everything an IPhone can and I don't need the big screen, but I recognize having the bigger screen has it's advantages. I've seen both the mini and the full-sized IPad. I personally like the mini best because the big one is quite large and a little less portable, although it might be better (I don't know what your vision is like). If you would benefit from the larger screen it might be something to consider, but the mini is definitely more portable. Both are about as functional as the other, so it's more about the size you would want. On 4/16/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > or get an Iphone on straight talk so you can have $45 a mont for > everything. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 01:26:42 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:26:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <00b701ce3aea$d81cafc0$88560f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Yeah, the child voices do sound creepy, but they work better than any audio captia I've come across so far. The only thing I've found that is absolutely easier is a captia that gave me a multistep math problem using addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. There were no parentheses, but you had to do three or four simple steps to get the right answer. You typed the answer into the box and you were in. I believe that was on WikiHow, but I haven't been on that site in years so I can't say if it's still around for us to play with. And the thing that really impresses me about yahoo is that even for people who are blind and visually impaired, there is this little link past the captia box that says that people who have visual and hearing impairments can contact yahoo for assistance to get their accounts set up. Although I'm more of a Google user for things, I have to give Yahoo credit for that. On 4/16/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Haha, yes, there is. Basically, the Yahoo captcha uses these synthetic > children's voices which, truth be told, sound like some kind of > nightmare kids straight out of Children of the Corn or something, lol! > the point is, they say a few numbers, you type them in, and there's > really no way to mistake what numbers are said, unless maybe you have > a hearing disability or something. > > On 4/16/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Interesting... I didn't know there was such a thing as an understandable >> audio Kaptcha. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua >> Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:42 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >> >> Yahoo has an easy-to-understand audio captcha. >> The one on Google doesn't work. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of christopher nusbaum >> [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:01 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >> >> Just curious, what makes Yahoo Groups more accessible than Google Groups? >> I >> had no problem with Google groups besides a Kaptcha, which unfortunately >> had >> to be solved by a sighted person. Does Yahoo not have a Kaptcha? >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >>> Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, >> since they're more accessible. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>> >>> Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I >>> fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I fully >>> believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a place for >>> blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. >>> Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with google >>> or yahoo? That might be your best option! >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>> >>> Robert, >>> I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver >>> thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I checked >>> on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, separate. >>> Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for something >>> you really didn't do. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At >>> least that's how Gmail classified it. >>> Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT >>> division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays >>> outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. >>> Perhaps >>> others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any >>> lists for LGBT specifically. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: >>> Robert, >>> I don't know of any. But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if >>> it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, >>> instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? >>> active >>> or not active, really does not matter to me >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>> aedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o >> nmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Wed Apr 17 01:30:24 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 01:30:24 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <00b701ce3aea$d81cafc0$88560f40$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Kaiti, please ask Google to fix their audio captcha, because when I tried to set up a GMail account, the audio captcha wouldn't play. If we can't trust them to make their Website blind-accessible, how can we trust them to help us drive? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? Hi, Yeah, the child voices do sound creepy, but they work better than any audio captia I've come across so far. The only thing I've found that is absolutely easier is a captia that gave me a multistep math problem using addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. There were no parentheses, but you had to do three or four simple steps to get the right answer. You typed the answer into the box and you were in. I believe that was on WikiHow, but I haven't been on that site in years so I can't say if it's still around for us to play with. And the thing that really impresses me about yahoo is that even for people who are blind and visually impaired, there is this little link past the captia box that says that people who have visual and hearing impairments can contact yahoo for assistance to get their accounts set up. Although I'm more of a Google user for things, I have to give Yahoo credit for that. On 4/16/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Haha, yes, there is. Basically, the Yahoo captcha uses these synthetic > children's voices which, truth be told, sound like some kind of > nightmare kids straight out of Children of the Corn or something, lol! > the point is, they say a few numbers, you type them in, and there's > really no way to mistake what numbers are said, unless maybe you have > a hearing disability or something. > > On 4/16/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Interesting... I didn't know there was such a thing as an understandable >> audio Kaptcha. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua >> Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:42 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >> >> Yahoo has an easy-to-understand audio captcha. >> The one on Google doesn't work. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of christopher nusbaum >> [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:01 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >> >> Just curious, what makes Yahoo Groups more accessible than Google Groups? >> I >> had no problem with Google groups besides a Kaptcha, which unfortunately >> had >> to be solved by a sighted person. Does Yahoo not have a Kaptcha? >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >>> Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, >> since they're more accessible. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>> >>> Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I >>> fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I fully >>> believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a place for >>> blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. >>> Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with google >>> or yahoo? That might be your best option! >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>> >>> Robert, >>> I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver >>> thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I checked >>> on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, separate. >>> Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for something >>> you really didn't do. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At >>> least that's how Gmail classified it. >>> Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT >>> division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays >>> outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. >>> Perhaps >>> others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any >>> lists for LGBT specifically. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: >>> Robert, >>> I don't know of any. But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if >>> it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, >>> instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? >>> active >>> or not active, really does not matter to me >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>> aedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o >> nmicrosoft.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From sgermano at asu.edu Wed Apr 17 01:41:06 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:41:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I am pretty sure equipment bought for your training through VR can be signed over to you if it is needed for the job. On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 6:14 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google > > Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and > > such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase > > employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of > > us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think > > you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, > > or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied > > directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending > > over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor > > idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. > > Arielle > > > > On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I find myself agreeing with several points. > >> > >> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into > >> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not > >> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working > >> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different > >> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing > >> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price > >> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this > >> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could > >> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, > >> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely > >> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. > >> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or > >> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. > >> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the > >> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, > >> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car > >> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of > >> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives > >> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five > >> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but > >> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person > >> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the > >> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to > >> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight > >> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and > >> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other > >> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the > >> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day > >> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, > >> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less > >> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying > >> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars > >> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, > >> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already > >> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. > >> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top > >> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a > >> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some > >> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which > >> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these > >> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between > >> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could > >> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the > >> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you > >> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you > >> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our > >> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping > >> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation > >> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the > >> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the > >> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of > >> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and > >> negatives to consider. > >> > >> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >>> Good morning Chris and everyone, > >>> > >>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. > Should > >>> you > >>> > >>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB > >>> developed > >>> > >>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo > >>> driver > >>> > >>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal > >>> cab > >>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver > >>> we > >>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly > >>> whenever > >>> > >>> we need transportation. > >>> > >>> Peter Donahue > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "christopher nusbaum" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>> > >>> > >>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? > >>> > >>> Chris Nusbaum > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > >>> > >>>> Just my own two sense: > >>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a > car > >>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. > >>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; > >>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. > If > >>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as > whole > >>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as > >>>> drivers. > >>>> I could just here the advertizement: > >>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call > >>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources > need > >>>> to > >>>> > >>>> be properly prioritized. > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > complex > >>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an > >>>>> autonomous > >>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage > >>>>> as > >>>>> > >>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. > >>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist > >>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > >>>>> electricity? > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Wow, Peter! > >>>>> Like minds huh? > >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > >>>>> Thanks, Joshua > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > >>>>> > >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > >>>>> technology > >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > >>>>> track at > >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > >>>>> ready been > >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > >>>>> have driven > >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > >>>>> unite and > >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > >>>>> else to > >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > >>>>> controllable by a > >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > >>>>> protected. We > >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > >>>>> and > >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > >>>>> initiative. > >>>>> > >>>>> Peter Donahue > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Amen, Patrick! > >>>>> > >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>>>> Public Relations Committee > >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Patrick Molloy > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > >>>>> with you. > >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > >>>>> to go, > >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > >>>>> in the NFB > >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > >>>>> the thing! > >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > >>>>> from the > >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially > >>>>> disappears. I'm not > >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > >>>>> myself with > >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > >>>>> and, with > >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > >>>>> If you want > >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > >>>>> more power to > >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > >>>>> that many > >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > >>>>> why blind > >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > >>>>> the potential > >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > >>>>> more or less > >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > >>>>> us blind > >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > >>>>> I decide > >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > >>>>> found it > >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > >>>>> that we as > >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > >>>>> in one way > >>>>> or another. > >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > >>>>> people > >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > >>>>> tired of > >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > >>>>> practice! If > >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > >>>>> should have > >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > >>>>> Separate is not > >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > >>>>> think it > >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > >>>>> to at > >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > >>>>> like our > >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > >>>>> self-serving, > >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > >>>>> can take a > >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > >>>>> bus if we > >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > >>>>> got time to > >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > >>>>> the same > >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > >>>>> the > >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > >>>>> people. > >>>>> Patrick > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>>> Hi all, > >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > >>>>> seems > >>>>> like you > >>>>> > >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > >>>>> buy > >>>>> one if > >>>>> > >>>>> given a choice. > >>>>> > >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > >>>>> paratransit > >>>>> > >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > >>>>> and safe. > >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > >>>>> want > >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > >>>>> > >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > >>>>> override the > >>>>> > >>>>> car. > >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > >>>>> is > >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > >>>>> front of > >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > >>>>> speed > >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > >>>>> to > >>>>> walk, rode rage, and > >>>>> > >>>>> drunk drivers. > >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > >>>>> override > >>>>> it when obstacles arise. > >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > >>>>> brakes due > >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > >>>>> unexpectedly > >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > >>>>> to, > >>>>> pedestrians who > >>>>> > >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > >>>>> signal > >>>>> is on > >>>>> > >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. > >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > >>>>> eyes > >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > >>>>> upon > >>>>> unexpected hazards. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > >>>>> ahead and > >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > >>>>> just > >>>>> don't want to > >>>>> > >>>>> be on the road with you. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > >>>>> people, > >>>>> but we > >>>>> > >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > >>>>> Ashley > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > >>>>> buses I > >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > >>>>> need > >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > >>>>> to get > >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of > >>>>> Dayton's bus > >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > >>>>> east-west, but > >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > >>>>> you if > >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > >>>>> roll > >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > >>>>> boomerang > >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > >>>>> the > >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > >>>>> it > >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > >>>>> other > >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > >>>>> which > >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > >>>>> license, or > >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > >>>>> blind > >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > >>>>> self-serving > >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > >>>>> think not > >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > >>>>> than > >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > >>>>> can > >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > >>>>> would be > >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > >>>>> the high > >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > >>>>> so why > >>>>> not do it? > >>>>> > >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > >>>>> self > >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > >>>>> depending on > >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > >>>>> Here > >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > >>>>> FL > >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > >>>>> So > >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > >>>>> have > >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > >>>>> along > >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > >>>>> I'm > >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > >>>>> allowfor > >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > >>>>> thus > >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > >>>>> non > >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>>> t104 > >>>>> %40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Kaiti > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > >>>>> 0eart > >>>>> hlink.net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > >>>>> 40gma > >>>>> il.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>>>> m%40gmail.c > >>>>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > >>>>> atx.rr.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>> 0pccua.edu > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 17 01:45:49 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:45:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB LGBTQ Group In-Reply-To: <516DE6F0.2030805@gmail.com> References: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> <516DE6F0.2030805@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is not a NFB sponsored group, so you should not have NFB in its name. Dave >I have created the group. to subscribe and bypass the captcha, use >the email below. > >nfblgbt-subscribe at yahoogroups.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 01:48:57 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:48:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blind gay list? In-Reply-To: References: <516d374d.07a4ec0a.22ed.578a@mx.google.com> <7671974967231643190@unknownmsgid> <00b701ce3aea$d81cafc0$88560f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I like the Captias that consist of actual words instead of random numbers or letters. Short-term memory can retain familiar words a lot better than unfamiliar characters! (and you have to memorize those things for a few seconds if you're using text-to-speech, since you can't hear and type at the same time very easily!) Arielle On 4/16/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Kaiti, please ask Google to fix their audio captcha, because when I tried to > set up a GMail account, the audio captcha wouldn't play. > If we can't trust them to make their Website blind-accessible, how can we > trust them to help us drive? > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton > [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? > > Hi, > > Yeah, the child voices do sound creepy, but they work better than any > audio captia I've come across so far. The only thing I've found that > is absolutely easier is a captia that gave me a multistep math problem > using addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. There were > no parentheses, but you had to do three or four simple steps to get > the right answer. You typed the answer into the box and you were in. > I believe that was on WikiHow, but I haven't been on that site in > years so I can't say if it's still around for us to play with. > And the thing that really impresses me about yahoo is that even for > people who are blind and visually impaired, there is this little link > past the captia box that says that people who have visual and hearing > impairments can contact yahoo for assistance to get their accounts set > up. Although I'm more of a Google user for things, I have to give > Yahoo credit for that. > > On 4/16/13, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> Haha, yes, there is. Basically, the Yahoo captcha uses these synthetic >> children's voices which, truth be told, sound like some kind of >> nightmare kids straight out of Children of the Corn or something, lol! >> the point is, they say a few numbers, you type them in, and there's >> really no way to mistake what numbers are said, unless maybe you have >> a hearing disability or something. >> >> On 4/16/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> Interesting... I didn't know there was such a thing as an understandable >>> audio Kaptcha. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>> Public Relations Committee >>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua >>> Lester >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:42 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>> >>> Yahoo has an easy-to-understand audio captcha. >>> The one on Google doesn't work. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of christopher >>> nusbaum >>> [dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:01 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>> >>> Just curious, what makes Yahoo Groups more accessible than Google >>> Groups? >>> I >>> had no problem with Google groups besides a Kaptcha, which unfortunately >>> had >>> to be solved by a sighted person. Does Yahoo not have a Kaptcha? >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Joshua Lester >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Just as long as it's not NFB related, go ahead and use a Yahoo Group, >>> since they're more accessible. >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:33 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>>> >>>> Robert, while there is no blind gay list (at least in the NFB), I >>>> fully support the idea. Not because I'm a lesbian, but because I fully >>>> believe in gay rights and believe that there should be a place for >>>> blind students to discuss issues that go along with it. >>>> Have you ever considered creating your own blind gay group with google >>>> or yahoo? That might be your best option! >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind gay list? >>>> >>>> Robert, >>>> I appologize. My iPhone tacked your e-mail on the blind driver >>>> thread, althouogh I did see your subject change. Only when I checked >>>> on my computer did I notice that the threads are, in fact, separate. >>>> Please accept my sincere appologies. I got on your case for something >>>> you really didn't do. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 4/15/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> This appears to be a new thread, according to the new subject line. At >>>> least that's how Gmail classified it. >>>> Robert, I assume you're already subscribed to ACB's lists for the GLBT >>>> division there? I imagine there must be other lists for blind gays >>>> outside the ACB system, but I don't know any in particular. >>>> Perhaps >>>> others on the ACB list will have suggestions. NFBNet doesn't host any >>>> lists for LGBT specifically. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/15/13, Kirt wrote: >>>> Robert, >>>> I don't know of any. But good luck to you. However, I'm wondering if >>>> it might have been better to start your own new thread about this, >>>> instead of changing the subject of the thread that already existed? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 7:44 PM, Robert William Kingett >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> would anyone know of a blind gay discussion list that I could join? >>>> active >>>> or not active, really does not matter to me >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>> e%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>> e%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>> r%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>> aedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o >>> nmicrosoft.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:54:58 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:54:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <002001ce3a45$6951dc50$3bf594f0$@gmail.com> Do they take it when you have a job? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi all, That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google > Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and > such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase > employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of > us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think > you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, > or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied > directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending > over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor > idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. > Arielle > > On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I find myself agreeing with several points. >> >> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this >> thing is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the >> price is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous >> this car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I >> could very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. >> Say, for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car >> remotely and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some >> consideration, since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, >> even if a car dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it >> would be a lot of driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a >> blind couple lives in a house, with one office five miles to the >> north and another five miles to the south. I realize these are very >> small measurements, but just for the sake of thinking about this >> we'll go with it. One person needs to be to work by eight, so the >> car drives ten miles to the office and back. Then it leaves again >> and drives five more miles to drop the other person off. When the >> person who got to work by eight needs to leave, the car would drive >> another ten miles to get them and another five to get home, then >> another ten miles to pick up the other person and bring them home. >> That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the couple each has their own >> cars, which each drive just ten miles a day going back and forth to >> work. That's half the driving, half the gas, and although there are >> 2 cars on the road instead of one, less emissions that are not >> healthy for the environment. What I was saying was that in order for >> this to really work for most families the cars would have to be >> affordable enough so people could have two at once, otherwise the car >> would incurr other expenses on top of the already heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in >> the >> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >> negatives to consider. >> >> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>> >>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>> Should you >>> >>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>> developed >>> >>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our >>> limo driver >>> >>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our >>> personal cab driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. >>> There's a cab driver we use regularly. We have his cell phone number >>> and call him directly whenever >>> >>> we need transportation. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>> >>>> Just my own two sense: >>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>> car with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for >>>> innovation; however, we need to fix our problems within our society >>>> a bit more. If blind people overall had more stability with a >>>> greater respect as whole individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then >>>> I would advocate us as drivers. >>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, >>>> call (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and >>>> resources need to >>>> >>>> be properly prioritized. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>>>> have enough baggage as >>>>> >>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, that >>>>> autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've only >>>>> heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or electricity? >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>> >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>> technology along with videos showing a blind person driving the >>>>> car on the track at Daytona Beach. The technology and the >>>>> possibilities have all ready been demonstrated. I also understand >>>>> that several blind individuals have driven the car on the streets >>>>> of Baltimore with success.We all need to unite and work with >>>>> whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone else to >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>> controllable by a blind person and that our right to operate such >>>>> vehicles is protected. We don't need the very people who stand to >>>>> benefit from the freedom and empowerment such a vehicle could give >>>>> us undermining such a noble initiative. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>> with you. >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>> to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost >>>>> faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you >>>>> barely ever saw the thing! >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>> from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>> disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. >>>>> I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the >>>>> technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it >>>>> will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>> If you want >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, more >>>>> power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the >>>>> philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As for >>>>> your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I think if >>>>> you read the articles about the potential of autonomous cars, >>>>> you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less assuaged. >>>>> Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for us blind >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If I >>>>> decide not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it >>>>> out and found it not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or >>>>> less dead, I feel that we as blind people have a responsibility to >>>>> get behind the Google car in one way or another. >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>> people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and >>>>> we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up >>>>> from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, successful >>>>> individuals, then we should have the right to get around just like >>>>> our sighted colleagues. >>>>> Separate is not >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>> think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself >>>>> and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us >>>>> who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and >>>>> fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make >>>>> sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The >>>>> issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't >>>>> want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time >>>>> to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should >>>>> have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that >>>>> freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the >>>>> same things as sighted people. >>>>> Patrick >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>> seems like you >>>>> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>> buy one if >>>>> >>>>> given a choice. >>>>> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>> paratransit >>>>> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and >>>>> safe. >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>> want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>> override the >>>>> >>>>> car. >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car is >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>> front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going >>>>> the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for >>>>> pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and >>>>> >>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>> override it when obstacles arise. >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes >>>>> due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>> unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their >>>>> supposed to, pedestrians who >>>>> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>> signal is on >>>>> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>> upon unexpected hazards. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right ahead >>>>> and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>> just don't want to >>>>> >>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>> people, but we >>>>> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>> buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town >>>>> that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really >>>>> long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the opposite >>>>> way of the destination for a while and then circling back because >>>>> of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses going >>>>> north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a stop the >>>>> time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north or south, >>>>> or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much rather just >>>>> get into a car and drive than boomerang around the city just to >>>>> get to one place, and then do it again returning to school. And >>>>> because of this, and the fact that it the bus system isn't exactly >>>>> equivalent to a car, I don't consider it self-serving either. I >>>>> have no problem in supporting it and other programs of public >>>>> transit for people who can't drive a car, which more often are >>>>> people who are low income, have a suspended license, or who are >>>>> inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other blind people >>>>> can afford a car and want one I don't see anything self-serving in >>>>> that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually think >>>>> not taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the >>>>> less than efficient public transit systems work fine and that >>>>> other people can use the money or whatever that would go into >>>>> buying this car would be like saying you'd pass up going to >>>>> college even though you could because other people can be served >>>>> by your tuition money, and the high school diploma would serve you >>>>> just fine. It's more efficient, so why not do it? >>>>> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, depending >>>>> on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>> Here >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>> FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>> So >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>> have said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>> along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning >>>>> and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>> I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>> allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on >>>>> time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so >>>>> you other non self serving blind people can take the bus. I think >>>>> it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>> 0eart >>>>> hlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>> 40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotma >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx >>> .rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet10 >>> 4%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:55:24 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:55:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> 90 days after employment and your case is closed. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Hi all, That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google > Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and > such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase > employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of > us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think > you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, > or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied > directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending > over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor > idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. > Arielle > > On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I find myself agreeing with several points. >> >> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >> negatives to consider. >> >> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>> >>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. Should >>> you >>> >>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>> developed >>> >>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>> driver >>> >>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>> cab >>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>> we >>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>> whenever >>> >>> we need transportation. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>> >>> >>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>> >>>> Just my own two sense: >>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a car >>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. If >>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as whole >>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>> drivers. >>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources need >>>> to >>>> >>>> be properly prioritized. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other complex >>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>> autonomous >>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>> as >>>>> >>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>> electricity? >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>> >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>> technology >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>> track at >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>> ready been >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>> have driven >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>> unite and >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>> else to >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>> controllable by a >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>> protected. We >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>> and >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>> initiative. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>> with you. >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>> to go, >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>> in the NFB >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>> the thing! >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>> from the >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>> myself with >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>> and, with >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>> If you want >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>> more power to >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>> that many >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>> why blind >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>> the potential >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>> more or less >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>> us blind >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>> I decide >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>> found it >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>> that we as >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>> in one way >>>>> or another. >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>> people >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>> tired of >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>> practice! If >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>> should have >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>> Separate is not >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>> think it >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>> to at >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>> like our >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>> self-serving, >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>> can take a >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>> bus if we >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>> got time to >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>> the same >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>> the >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>> people. >>>>> Patrick >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>> seems >>>>> like you >>>>> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>> buy >>>>> one if >>>>> >>>>> given a choice. >>>>> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>> paratransit >>>>> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>> and safe. >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>> want >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>> override the >>>>> >>>>> car. >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>> is >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>> front of >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>> speed >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>> to >>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>> >>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>> override >>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>> brakes due >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>> unexpectedly >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>> to, >>>>> pedestrians who >>>>> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>> signal >>>>> is on >>>>> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>> eyes >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>> upon >>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>> ahead and >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>> just >>>>> don't want to >>>>> >>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>> people, >>>>> but we >>>>> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>> buses I >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>> need >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>> to get >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>> east-west, but >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>> you if >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>> roll >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>> boomerang >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>> the >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>> it >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>> other >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>> which >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>> license, or >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>> blind >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>> self-serving >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>> think not >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>> than >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>> can >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>> would be >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>> the high >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>> so why >>>>> not do it? >>>>> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>> self >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>> depending on >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>> Here >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>> FL >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>> So >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>> have >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>> along >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>> I'm >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>> allowfor >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>> thus >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>> non >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>> t104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>> 0eart >>>>> hlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>> 40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 03:49:29 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:49:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>> negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>> driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>> cab >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>> we >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>> whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>> car >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>> drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>> autonomous >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>> track at >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>> ready been >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>> have driven >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>> unite and >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>> else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>> protected. We >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>> and >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>> initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>> the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>> myself with >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>> and, with >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>> that many >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>> why blind >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>> the potential >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>> more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>> I decide >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>> found it >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>> that we as >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>> in one way >>>>>> or another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>> tired of >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>> practice! If >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>> should have >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>> to at >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>> like our >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>> can take a >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>> bus if we >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>> got time to >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>> the same >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>> the >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>> people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy >>>>>> one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>> and safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>> speed >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>> to >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>> brakes due >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>> to, >>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal >>>>>> is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>> eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon >>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>> just >>>>>> don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, >>>>>> but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>> need >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>> to get >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>> you if >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>> roll >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>> boomerang >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>> the >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>> it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>> which >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>> license, or >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>> self-serving >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>> think not >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>> than >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>> can >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>> would be >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>> the high >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>> so why >>>>>> not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>> along >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>> allowfor >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>> thus >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>> non >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 03:57:48 2013 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:57:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Play Books? Message-ID: Hi Everyone: I just discovered the Google Play bookstore. Just curious, can those books be read on the PC using a screenreader? Thanks, Kerri From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 04:03:13 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 22:03:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't have a VR case anymore, but I think I heard that they do close your case after 90 days of employment but they can sign equipment over to you at that time. Arielle On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Justin, > > Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national > thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back > to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne > suggested? > I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed > they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully > employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own > equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a > laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that > 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine > though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. > > On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: >> 90 days after employment and your case is closed. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi all, >> >> That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't >> think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what >> other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements >> for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. >> They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and >> give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years >> to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a >> starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to >> happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, >> "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since >> you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the >> requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." >> It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. >> >> On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >>> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >>> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >>> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >>> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >>> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >>> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >>> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >>> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >>> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>>> >>>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>>> negatives to consider. >>>> >>>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>>> Should >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>>> developed >>>>> >>>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>>> driver >>>>> >>>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>>> cab >>>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>>> we >>>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>>> whenever >>>>> >>>>> we need transportation. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment >>>>> rate? >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>>> car >>>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>>> If >>>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>>> whole >>>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>>> drivers. >>>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>>> need >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>>> complex >>>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>>> autonomous >>>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough >>>>>>> baggage >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>>> electricity? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>>> technology >>>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>>> track at >>>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>>> ready been >>>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>>> have driven >>>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>>> unite and >>>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>>> else to >>>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>>> protected. We >>>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>>> initiative. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>>> with you. >>>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>>> to go, >>>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>>> the thing! >>>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>>> from the >>>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>>> myself with >>>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>>> and, with >>>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>>> If you want >>>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>>> more power to >>>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>>> that many >>>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>>> why blind >>>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>>> the potential >>>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>>> more or less >>>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>>> us blind >>>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>>> I decide >>>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>>> found it >>>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>>> that we as >>>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>>> in one way >>>>>>> or another. >>>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>>> tired of >>>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>>> practice! If >>>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>>> should have >>>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>>> think it >>>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>>> to at >>>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>>> like our >>>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>>> can take a >>>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>>> bus if we >>>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>>> got time to >>>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>>> the same >>>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>>> people. >>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>>> seems >>>>>>> like you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>>> buy >>>>>>> one if >>>>>>> >>>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>>> paratransit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>>> and safe. >>>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>>> override the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> car. >>>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>>> front of >>>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>>> speed >>>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>>> override >>>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>>> brakes due >>>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>>> to, >>>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>>> >>>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>>> signal >>>>>>> is on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>>> eyes >>>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>>> upon >>>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>>> ahead and >>>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> don't want to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>>> people, >>>>>>> but we >>>>>>> >>>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>>> buses I >>>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>>> to get >>>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>>> you if >>>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>>> roll >>>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>>> boomerang >>>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>>> license, or >>>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>>> self-serving >>>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>>> think not >>>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>>> would be >>>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>>> the high >>>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>>> so why >>>>>>> not do it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>>> self >>>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>>> depending on >>>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>>> Here >>>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>>> FL >>>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>>> So >>>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>>> along >>>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>>> allowfor >>>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>>> thus >>>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>>> non >>>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>>> 0eart >>>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>>> 40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Wed Apr 17 04:04:46 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:04:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: But if you can't do your job without the equipment then you would no long have a job and can't save up to buy the equipment On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Justin, > > Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national > thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back > to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne > suggested? > I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed > they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully > employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own > equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a > laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that > 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine > though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. > > On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > Shelton > > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > > > Hi all, > > > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google > >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and > >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase > >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of > >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think > >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, > >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied > >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending > >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor > >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. > >>> > >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into > >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not > >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working > >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different > >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing > >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price > >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this > >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could > >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, > >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely > >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. > >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or > >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. > >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the > >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, > >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car > >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of > >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives > >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five > >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but > >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person > >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the > >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to > >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight > >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and > >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other > >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the > >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day > >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, > >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less > >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying > >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars > >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, > >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already > >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. > >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top > >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a > >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some > >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which > >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these > >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between > >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could > >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the > >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you > >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you > >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our > >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping > >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation > >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the > >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the > >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of > >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and > >>> negatives to consider. > >>> > >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, > >>>> > >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. > >>>> Should > >>>> you > >>>> > >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB > >>>> developed > >>>> > >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo > >>>> driver > >>>> > >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal > >>>> cab > >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver > >>>> we > >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly > >>>> whenever > >>>> > >>>> we need transportation. > >>>> > >>>> Peter Donahue > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" > >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment > rate? > >>>> > >>>> Chris Nusbaum > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Just my own two sense: > >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a > >>>>> car > >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. > >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; > >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. > >>>>> If > >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as > >>>>> whole > >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as > >>>>> drivers. > >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: > >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call > >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources > >>>>> need > >>>>> to > >>>>> > >>>>> be properly prioritized. > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" < > sweetpeareader at gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > >>>>>> complex > >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an > >>>>>> autonomous > >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough > baggage > >>>>>> as > >>>>>> > >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. > >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist > >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > >>>>>> electricity? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Wow, Peter! > >>>>>> Like minds huh? > >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > >>>>>> technology > >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > >>>>>> track at > >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > >>>>>> ready been > >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > >>>>>> have driven > >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > >>>>>> unite and > >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > >>>>>> else to > >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > >>>>>> controllable by a > >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > >>>>>> protected. We > >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > >>>>>> initiative. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Peter Donahue > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>>>>> Public Relations Committee > >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>>> Patrick Molloy > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > >>>>>> with you. > >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > >>>>>> to go, > >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > >>>>>> in the NFB > >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > >>>>>> the thing! > >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > >>>>>> from the > >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially > >>>>>> disappears. I'm not > >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > >>>>>> myself with > >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > >>>>>> and, with > >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > >>>>>> If you want > >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > >>>>>> more power to > >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > >>>>>> that many > >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > >>>>>> why blind > >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > >>>>>> the potential > >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > >>>>>> more or less > >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > >>>>>> us blind > >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > >>>>>> I decide > >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > >>>>>> found it > >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > >>>>>> that we as > >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > >>>>>> in one way > >>>>>> or another. > >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > >>>>>> people > >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > >>>>>> tired of > >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > >>>>>> practice! If > >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > >>>>>> should have > >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > >>>>>> Separate is not > >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > >>>>>> think it > >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > >>>>>> to at > >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > >>>>>> like our > >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > >>>>>> self-serving, > >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > >>>>>> can take a > >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > >>>>>> bus if we > >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > >>>>>> got time to > >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > >>>>>> the same > >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > >>>>>> people. > >>>>>> Patrick > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > >>>>>> seems > >>>>>> like you > >>>>>> > >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > >>>>>> buy > >>>>>> one if > >>>>>> > >>>>>> given a choice. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > >>>>>> paratransit > >>>>>> > >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > >>>>>> and safe. > >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > >>>>>> want > >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > >>>>>> override the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> car. > >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > >>>>>> is > >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > >>>>>> front of > >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > >>>>>> speed > >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and > >>>>>> > >>>>>> drunk drivers. > >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > >>>>>> override > >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. > >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > >>>>>> brakes due > >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > >>>>>> unexpectedly > >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > >>>>>> to, > >>>>>> pedestrians who > >>>>>> > >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > >>>>>> signal > >>>>>> is on > >>>>>> > >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. > >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > >>>>>> eyes > >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > >>>>>> upon > >>>>>> unexpected hazards. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > >>>>>> ahead and > >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > >>>>>> just > >>>>>> don't want to > >>>>>> > >>>>>> be on the road with you. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > >>>>>> people, > >>>>>> but we > >>>>>> > >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > >>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > >>>>>> buses I > >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > >>>>>> need > >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > >>>>>> to get > >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of > >>>>>> Dayton's bus > >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > >>>>>> east-west, but > >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > >>>>>> you if > >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > >>>>>> roll > >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > >>>>>> boomerang > >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > >>>>>> it > >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > >>>>>> other > >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > >>>>>> which > >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > >>>>>> license, or > >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > >>>>>> blind > >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > >>>>>> self-serving > >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > >>>>>> think not > >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > >>>>>> than > >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > >>>>>> can > >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > >>>>>> would be > >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > >>>>>> the high > >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > >>>>>> so why > >>>>>> not do it? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > >>>>>> self > >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > >>>>>> depending on > >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > >>>>>> Here > >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > >>>>>> FL > >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > >>>>>> So > >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > >>>>>> have > >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > >>>>>> along > >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > >>>>>> I'm > >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > >>>>>> allowfor > >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > >>>>>> thus > >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > >>>>>> non > >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>> info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>>>> t104 > >>>>>> %40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Kaiti > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>> info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > >>>>>> 0eart > >>>>>> hlink.net > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>> info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > >>>>>> 40gma > >>>>>> il.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>>>>> m%40gmail.c > >>>>>> om > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > >>>>>> atx.rr.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>>> 0pccua.edu > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > > om > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > > l.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Kaiti > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > > l.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 05:19:38 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 01:19:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, but a lot of what VR does doesn't make sense in that kind of way. At the end of the day they're going to want to do what is most cost-efficient for them, not necessarily what is best for the "consumer." I'm not sure how the signing equipment over process works, but unless you pay out of pocket for the equipment I could see them wanting to take it back and deal with it in a way that could get them reimbursement for other funds they have spent. On 4/17/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > But if you can't do your job without the equipment then you would no long > have a job and can't save up to buy the equipment > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > >> Justin, >> >> Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national >> thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back >> to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne >> suggested? >> I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed >> they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully >> employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own >> equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a >> laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that >> 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine >> though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. >> >> On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: >> > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't >> > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what >> > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements >> > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. >> > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and >> > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years >> > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a >> > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to >> > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, >> > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since >> > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the >> > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." >> > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. >> > >> > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >> >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> >> Arielle >> >> >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >> >>> >> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >> >>> >> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >> >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >> >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >> >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >> >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this >> >>> thing >> >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >> >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >> >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >> >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >> >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >> >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >> >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >> >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas >> >>> station. >> >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >> >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some >> >>> consideration, >> >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >> >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >> >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >> >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >> >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >> >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One >> >>> person >> >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >> >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >> >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >> >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >> >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >> >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >> >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >> >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >> >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >> >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was >> >>> saying >> >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >> >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >> >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >> >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >> >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >> >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >> >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >> >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >> >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >> >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >> >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >> >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in >> >>> the >> >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >> >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >> >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >> >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >> >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >> >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >> >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >> >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >> >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >> >>> negatives to consider. >> >>> >> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >> >>>> >> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >> >>>> Should >> >>>> you >> >>>> >> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >> >>>> developed >> >>>> >> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our >> >>>> limo >> >>>> driver >> >>>> >> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our >> >>>> personal >> >>>> cab >> >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab >> >>>> driver >> >>>> we >> >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >> >>>> whenever >> >>>> >> >>>> we need transportation. >> >>>> >> >>>> Peter Donahue >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment >> rate? >> >>>> >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> >> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >> >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >> >>>>> car >> >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >> >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for >> >>>>> innovation; >> >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >> >>>>> If >> >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >> >>>>> whole >> >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >> >>>>> drivers. >> >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >> >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, >> >>>>> call >> >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >> >>>>> need >> >>>>> to >> >>>>> >> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" < >> sweetpeareader at gmail.com> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >> >>>>>> complex >> >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >> >>>>>> autonomous >> >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough >> baggage >> >>>>>> as >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >> >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >> >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >> >>>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >> >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >> >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >> >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >> >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >> >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >> >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >> >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >> >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >> >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >> >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >> >>>>>> electricity? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >> >>>>>> Like minds huh? >> >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >> >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >> >>>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >> >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >> >>>>>> technology >> >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >> >>>>>> track at >> >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >> >>>>>> ready been >> >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >> >>>>>> have driven >> >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >> >>>>>> unite and >> >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >> >>>>>> else to >> >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >> >>>>>> controllable by a >> >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >> >>>>>> protected. We >> >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >> >>>>>> and >> >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >> >>>>>> initiative. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" > >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >> >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >> >>>>>> with you. >> >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >> >>>>>> to go, >> >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >> >>>>>> in the NFB >> >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >> >>>>>> the thing! >> >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >> >>>>>> from the >> >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >> >>>>>> disappears. I'm not >> >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >> >>>>>> myself with >> >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >> >>>>>> and, with >> >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >> >>>>>> If you want >> >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >> >>>>>> more power to >> >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >> >>>>>> that many >> >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >> >>>>>> why blind >> >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >> >>>>>> the potential >> >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >> >>>>>> more or less >> >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >> >>>>>> us blind >> >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >> >>>>>> I decide >> >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >> >>>>>> found it >> >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >> >>>>>> that we as >> >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >> >>>>>> in one way >> >>>>>> or another. >> >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >> >>>>>> people >> >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >> >>>>>> tired of >> >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >> >>>>>> practice! If >> >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >> >>>>>> should have >> >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >> >>>>>> Separate is not >> >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >> >>>>>> think it >> >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >> >>>>>> to at >> >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >> >>>>>> like our >> >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >> >>>>>> self-serving, >> >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >> >>>>>> can take a >> >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >> >>>>>> bus if we >> >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >> >>>>>> got time to >> >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >> >>>>>> the same >> >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >> >>>>>> people. >> >>>>>> Patrick >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> >>>>>> Hi all, >> >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >> >>>>>> seems >> >>>>>> like you >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >> >>>>>> buy >> >>>>>> one if >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> given a choice. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >> >>>>>> paratransit >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >> >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >> >>>>>> and safe. >> >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >> >>>>>> want >> >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >> >>>>>> override the >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> car. >> >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >> >>>>>> is >> >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >> >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >> >>>>>> front of >> >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >> >>>>>> speed >> >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >> >>>>>> to >> >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >> >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >> >>>>>> override >> >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >> >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >> >>>>>> brakes due >> >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >> >>>>>> unexpectedly >> >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >> >>>>>> to, >> >>>>>> pedestrians who >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >> >>>>>> signal >> >>>>>> is on >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >> >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >> >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >> >>>>>> eyes >> >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >> >>>>>> upon >> >>>>>> unexpected hazards. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >> >>>>>> ahead and >> >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >> >>>>>> just >> >>>>>> don't want to >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >> >>>>>> people, >> >>>>>> but we >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >> >>>>>> Ashley >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >> >>>>>> buses I >> >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >> >>>>>> need >> >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >> >>>>>> to get >> >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >> >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >> >>>>>> Dayton's bus >> >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >> >>>>>> east-west, but >> >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >> >>>>>> you if >> >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >> >>>>>> roll >> >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >> >>>>>> boomerang >> >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >> >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >> >>>>>> it >> >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >> >>>>>> other >> >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >> >>>>>> which >> >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >> >>>>>> license, or >> >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >> >>>>>> blind >> >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >> >>>>>> self-serving >> >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >> >>>>>> think not >> >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >> >>>>>> than >> >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >> >>>>>> can >> >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >> >>>>>> would be >> >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >> >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >> >>>>>> the high >> >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >> >>>>>> so why >> >>>>>> not do it? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >> >>>>>> self >> >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >> >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >> >>>>>> depending on >> >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >> >>>>>> Here >> >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >> >>>>>> FL >> >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >> >>>>>> So >> >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >> >>>>>> have >> >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >> >>>>>> along >> >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >> >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >> >>>>>> I'm >> >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >> >>>>>> allowfor >> >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >> >>>>>> thus >> >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >> >>>>>> non >> >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >> >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>> info for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> >>>>>> t104 >> >>>>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> Kaiti >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>> info for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> >>>>>> 0eart >> >>>>>> hlink.net >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>> info for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> >>>>>> 40gma >> >>>>>> il.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >> >>>>>> om >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >> >>>>>> atx.rr.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> > om >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> > l.com >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Kaiti >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> > l.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kaiti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> > .com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 12:06:44 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:06:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501ce3a9a$dffd7f30$9ff87d90$@gmail.com> That's what I thought. However, I didn't want to assume that every state is the same. Ohio could be different than south Carolina. So, Maybe we had just better save up for our own google cars. Don't get that from voke rehab. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 12:03 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I don't have a VR case anymore, but I think I heard that they do close your case after 90 days of employment but they can sign equipment over to you at that time. Arielle On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Justin, > > Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national > thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back > to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne > suggested? > I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed > they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully > employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own > equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a > laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that > 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine > though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. > > On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: >> 90 days after employment and your case is closed. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi all, >> >> That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't >> think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what >> other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements >> for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. >> They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and >> give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years >> to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a >> starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to >> happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, >> "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since >> you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the >> requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." >> It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. >> >> On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >>> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >>> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >>> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >>> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >>> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >>> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >>> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >>> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >>> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>>> >>>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>>> negatives to consider. >>>> >>>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>>> Should >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>>> developed >>>>> >>>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>>> driver >>>>> >>>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>>> cab >>>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>>> we >>>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>>> whenever >>>>> >>>>> we need transportation. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment >>>>> rate? >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>>> car >>>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>>> If >>>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>>> whole >>>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>>> drivers. >>>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>>> need >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>>> complex >>>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>>> autonomous >>>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough >>>>>>> baggage >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>>> electricity? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>>> technology >>>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>>> track at >>>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>>> ready been >>>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>>> have driven >>>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>>> unite and >>>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>>> else to >>>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>>> protected. We >>>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>>> initiative. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>>> with you. >>>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>>> to go, >>>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>>> the thing! >>>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>>> from the >>>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>>> myself with >>>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>>> and, with >>>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>>> If you want >>>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>>> more power to >>>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>>> that many >>>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>>> why blind >>>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>>> the potential >>>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>>> more or less >>>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>>> us blind >>>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>>> I decide >>>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>>> found it >>>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>>> that we as >>>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>>> in one way >>>>>>> or another. >>>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>>> tired of >>>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>>> practice! If >>>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>>> should have >>>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>>> think it >>>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>>> to at >>>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>>> like our >>>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>>> can take a >>>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>>> bus if we >>>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>>> got time to >>>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>>> the same >>>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>>> people. >>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>>> seems >>>>>>> like you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>>> buy >>>>>>> one if >>>>>>> >>>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>>> paratransit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>>> and safe. >>>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>>> override the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> car. >>>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>>> front of >>>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>>> speed >>>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>>> override >>>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>>> brakes due >>>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>>> to, >>>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>>> >>>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>>> signal >>>>>>> is on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>>> eyes >>>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>>> upon >>>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>>> ahead and >>>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> don't want to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>>> people, >>>>>>> but we >>>>>>> >>>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>>> buses I >>>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>>> to get >>>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>>> you if >>>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>>> roll >>>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>>> boomerang >>>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>>> license, or >>>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>>> self-serving >>>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>>> think not >>>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>>> would be >>>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>>> the high >>>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>>> so why >>>>>>> not do it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>>> self >>>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>>> depending on >>>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>>> Here >>>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>>> FL >>>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>>> So >>>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>>> along >>>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>>> allowfor >>>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>>> thus >>>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>>> non >>>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>>> 0eart >>>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>>> 40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 12:09:42 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:09:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004901ce3a9b$4a19a6a0$de4cf3e0$@gmail.com> In south Carolina you keep the equipment as long as you are employed. I no that most other states do that because you couldn't do the job if they didn't. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and >> counselor idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might >>> not be worth it until the price comes down simply because most >>> working families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in >>> different places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even >>> after this thing is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long >>> time till the price is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just >>> how autonymous this car is. Even though it might drive itself most >>> of the way, I could very well see it needing instruction to take >>> detours if needed. Say, for instance, that you've chartered your >>> course for your car remotely and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone >>> or anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some >>> consideration, since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. >>> Also, even if a car dropped one spouse off and went to get the other >>> it would be a lot of driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say >>> a blind couple lives in a house, with one office five miles to the >>> north and another five miles to the south. I realize these are very >>> small measurements, but just for the sake of thinking about this >>> we'll go with it. One person needs to be to work by eight, so the >>> car drives ten miles to the office and back. Then it leaves again >>> and drives five more miles to drop the other person off. When the >>> person who got to work by eight needs to leave, the car would drive >>> another ten miles to get them and another five to get home, then >>> another ten miles to pick up the other person and bring them home. >>> That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the couple each has their own >>> cars, which each drive just ten miles a day going back and forth to >>> work. That's half the driving, half the gas, and although there are >>> 2 cars on the road instead of one, less emissions that are not >>> healthy for the environment. What I was saying was that in order >>> for this to really work for most families the cars would have to be >>> affordable enough so people could have two at once, otherwise the >>> car would incurr other expenses on top of the already heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in >>> which the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both >>> these statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap >>> between the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. >>> I could in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, >>> as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm >>> hoping to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's >>> expectation of blind people being able to have the Google cars might >>> weigh in the interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed >>> him with the intention of having him drive the google car to >>> complete the tasks of the job. I think there are a lot of >>> complicated positives and negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our >>>> limo driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our >>>> personal cab driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. >>>> There's a cab driver we use regularly. We have his cell phone >>>> number and call him directly whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or >>>>> a car with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for >>>>> innovation; however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate >>>>> us as drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, >>>>> call (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and >>>>> resources need to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>>>>> have enough baggage as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology along with videos showing a blind person driving the >>>>>> car on the track at Daytona Beach. The technology and the >>>>>> possibilities have all ready been demonstrated. I also understand >>>>>> that several blind individuals have driven the car on the streets >>>>>> of Baltimore with success.We all need to unite and work with >>>>>> whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a blind person and that our right to operate such >>>>>> vehicles is protected. We don't need the very people who stand to >>>>>> benefit from the freedom and empowerment such a vehicle could >>>>>> give us undermining such a noble initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly >>>>>> lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," >>>>>> but you barely ever saw the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. >>>>>> I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the >>>>>> technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it >>>>>> will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to >>>>>> the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As >>>>>> for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I >>>>>> think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous >>>>>> cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be >>>>>> ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be >>>>>> after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the >>>>>> NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have >>>>>> a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or >>>>>> another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and >>>>>> we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up >>>>>> from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, >>>>>> successful individuals, then we should have the right to get >>>>>> around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself >>>>>> and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us >>>>>> who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and >>>>>> fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make >>>>>> sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The >>>>>> issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't >>>>>> want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time >>>>>> to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should >>>>>> have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that >>>>>> freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the >>>>>> same things as sighted people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and >>>>>> safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going >>>>>> the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for >>>>>> pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes >>>>>> due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their >>>>>> supposed to, pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a >>>>>> license. I just don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town >>>>>> that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really >>>>>> long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the >>>>>> opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling >>>>>> back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses >>>>>> going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a >>>>>> stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north >>>>>> or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much >>>>>> rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the >>>>>> city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to >>>>>> school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system >>>>>> isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a >>>>>> car, which more often are people who are low income, have a >>>>>> suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, >>>>>> but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I >>>>>> don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is >>>>>> most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this >>>>>> opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public >>>>>> transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money >>>>>> or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like >>>>>> saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the >>>>>> high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more >>>>>> efficient, so why not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 >>>>>> minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding >>>>>> extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you >>>>>> were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have said before in a previous message, this technology is >>>>>> driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even >>>>>> grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and >>>>>> happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device >>>>>> that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an >>>>>> interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to >>>>>> pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take >>>>>> the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>>> think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c > om >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 12:09:42 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:09:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com> When I worked at Teleperformance as a csr, they allowed me to keep my equipment. They actually ordered equipment for me whey I got the job. I just don't want to assume tht every state works the same, but from my studies, as long as you are employed, and college is considered employment, then you keep the equipment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>> negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>> driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>> cab >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>> we >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>> whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>> car >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>> drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>> autonomous >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>> track at >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>> ready been >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>> have driven >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>> unite and >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>> else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>> protected. We >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>> and >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>> initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>> the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>> myself with >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>> and, with >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>> that many >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>> why blind >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>> the potential >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>> more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>> I decide >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>> found it >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>> that we as >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>> in one way >>>>>> or another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>> tired of >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>> practice! If >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>> should have >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>> to at >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>> like our >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>> can take a >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>> bus if we >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>> got time to >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>> the same >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>> the >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>> people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy >>>>>> one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>> and safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>> speed >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>> to >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>> brakes due >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>> to, >>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal >>>>>> is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>> eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon >>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>> just >>>>>> don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, >>>>>> but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>> need >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>> to get >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>> you if >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>> roll >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>> boomerang >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>> the >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>> it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>> which >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>> license, or >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>> self-serving >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>> think not >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>> than >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>> can >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>> would be >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>> the high >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>> so why >>>>>> not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>> along >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>> allowfor >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>> thus >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>> non >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 11:45:25 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 08:45:25 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com><-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid><003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> <004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F6B0F9540B743F6BFC326B8AD40D2BB@userPC> Here in NJ you have to be working or in school in order to get any equipment but you get to keep it after using it for school because you need it for the job. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:10 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets When I worked at Teleperformance as a csr, they allowed me to keep my equipment. They actually ordered equipment for me whey I got the job. I just don't want to assume tht every state works the same, but from my studies, as long as you are employed, and college is considered employment, then you keep the equipment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>> negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>> driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>> cab >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>> we >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>> whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>> car >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>> drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>> autonomous >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>> track at >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>> ready been >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>> have driven >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>> unite and >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>> else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>> protected. We >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>> and >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>> initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>> the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>> myself with >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>> and, with >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>> that many >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>> why blind >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>> the potential >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>> more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>> I decide >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>> found it >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>> that we as >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>> in one way >>>>>> or another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>> tired of >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>> practice! If >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>> should have >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>> to at >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>> like our >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>> can take a >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>> bus if we >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>> got time to >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>> the same >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>> the >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>> people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy >>>>>> one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>> and safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>> speed >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>> to >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>> brakes due >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>> to, >>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal >>>>>> is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>> eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon >>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>> just >>>>>> don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, >>>>>> but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>> need >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>> to get >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>> you if >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>> roll >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>> boomerang >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>> the >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>> it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>> which >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>> license, or >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>> self-serving >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>> think not >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>> than >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>> can >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>> would be >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>> the high >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>> so why >>>>>> not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>> along >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>> allowfor >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>> thus >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>> non >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Wed Apr 17 12:49:08 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:49:08 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <5F6B0F9540B743F6BFC326B8AD40D2BB@userPC> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com><-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid><003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> <004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com>, <5F6B0F9540B743F6BFC326B8AD40D2BB@userPC> Message-ID: That's the same way in Arkansas, but I have a question Rania. Do you have to go for more needless evaluations, before you get your equipment? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:45 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Here in NJ you have to be working or in school in order to get any equipment but you get to keep it after using it for school because you need it for the job. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:10 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets When I worked at Teleperformance as a csr, they allowed me to keep my equipment. They actually ordered equipment for me whey I got the job. I just don't want to assume tht every state works the same, but from my studies, as long as you are employed, and college is considered employment, then you keep the equipment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>> negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>> driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>> cab >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>> we >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>> whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>> car >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>> drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>> autonomous >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>> track at >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>> ready been >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>> have driven >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>> unite and >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>> else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>> protected. We >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>> and >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>> initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>> the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>> myself with >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>> and, with >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>> that many >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>> why blind >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>> the potential >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>> more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>> I decide >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>> found it >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>> that we as >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>> in one way >>>>>> or another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>> tired of >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>> practice! If >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>> should have >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>> to at >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>> like our >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>> can take a >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>> bus if we >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>> got time to >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>> the same >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>> the >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>> people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy >>>>>> one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>> and safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>> speed >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>> to >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>> brakes due >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>> to, >>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal >>>>>> is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>> eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon >>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>> just >>>>>> don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, >>>>>> but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>> need >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>> to get >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>> you if >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>> roll >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>> boomerang >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>> the >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>> it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>> which >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>> license, or >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>> self-serving >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>> think not >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>> than >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>> can >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>> would be >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>> the high >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>> so why >>>>>> not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>> along >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>> allowfor >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>> thus >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>> non >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 11:52:45 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 08:52:45 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com><-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid><003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com><004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com>, <5F6B0F9540B743F6BFC326B8AD40D2BB@userPC> Message-ID: We have to get an evaluation before they get us equipment but that is the only one I know of. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets That's the same way in Arkansas, but I have a question Rania. Do you have to go for more needless evaluations, before you get your equipment? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:45 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Here in NJ you have to be working or in school in order to get any equipment but you get to keep it after using it for school because you need it for the job. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:10 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets When I worked at Teleperformance as a csr, they allowed me to keep my equipment. They actually ordered equipment for me whey I got the job. I just don't want to assume tht every state works the same, but from my studies, as long as you are employed, and college is considered employment, then you keep the equipment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>> negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>> driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>> cab >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>> we >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>> whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>> car >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>> drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>> autonomous >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>> track at >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>> ready been >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>> have driven >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>> unite and >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>> else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>> protected. We >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>> and >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>> initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>> the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>> myself with >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>> and, with >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>> that many >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>> why blind >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>> the potential >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>> more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>> I decide >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>> found it >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>> that we as >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>> in one way >>>>>> or another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>> tired of >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>> practice! If >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>> should have >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>> to at >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>> like our >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>> can take a >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>> bus if we >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>> got time to >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>> the same >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>> the >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>> people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy >>>>>> one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>> and safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>> speed >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>> to >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>> brakes due >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>> to, >>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal >>>>>> is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>> eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon >>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>> just >>>>>> don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, >>>>>> but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>> need >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>> to get >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>> you if >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>> roll >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>> boomerang >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>> the >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>> it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>> which >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>> license, or >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>> self-serving >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>> think not >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>> than >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>> can >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>> would be >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>> the high >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>> so why >>>>>> not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>> along >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>> allowfor >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>> thus >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>> non >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Wed Apr 17 12:57:04 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:57:04 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com><-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid><003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com><004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com>, <5F6B0F9540B743F6BFC326B8AD40D2BB@userPC> , Message-ID: I posted my delimma on this thread earlier, but noone responded. I had an evaluation in 2009, but VR didn't get me that notetaker that I needed. Now, they're talking about it, but I have to go for another evaluation! Why won't the 2009 one suffice? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:52 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets We have to get an evaluation before they get us equipment but that is the only one I know of. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets That's the same way in Arkansas, but I have a question Rania. Do you have to go for more needless evaluations, before you get your equipment? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:45 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Here in NJ you have to be working or in school in order to get any equipment but you get to keep it after using it for school because you need it for the job. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:10 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets When I worked at Teleperformance as a csr, they allowed me to keep my equipment. They actually ordered equipment for me whey I got the job. I just don't want to assume tht every state works the same, but from my studies, as long as you are employed, and college is considered employment, then you keep the equipment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and >>> negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo >>>> driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal >>>> cab >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver >>>> we >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly >>>> whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a >>>>> car >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as >>>>> drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an >>>>>> autonomous >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough baggage >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the >>>>>> track at >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all >>>>>> ready been >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals >>>>>> have driven >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to >>>>>> unite and >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone >>>>>> else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is >>>>>> protected. We >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom >>>>>> and >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble >>>>>> initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith >>>>>> in the NFB >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw >>>>>> the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling >>>>>> myself with >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive >>>>>> and, with >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy >>>>>> that many >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to >>>>>> why blind >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about >>>>>> the potential >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears >>>>>> more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If >>>>>> I decide >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and >>>>>> found it >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel >>>>>> that we as >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car >>>>>> in one way >>>>>> or another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're >>>>>> tired of >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer >>>>>> practice! If >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we >>>>>> should have >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly >>>>>> to at >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive >>>>>> like our >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us >>>>>> self-serving, >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they >>>>>> can take a >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a >>>>>> bus if we >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've >>>>>> got time to >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have >>>>>> the same >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come >>>>>> the >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted >>>>>> people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy >>>>>> one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient >>>>>> and safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the >>>>>> speed >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians >>>>>> to >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the >>>>>> brakes due >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed >>>>>> to, >>>>>> pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal >>>>>> is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with >>>>>> eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon >>>>>> unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I >>>>>> just >>>>>> don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, >>>>>> but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I >>>>>> need >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time >>>>>> to get >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of >>>>>> Dayton's bus >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and >>>>>> east-west, but >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell >>>>>> you if >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to >>>>>> roll >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than >>>>>> boomerang >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it >>>>>> the >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider >>>>>> it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, >>>>>> which >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended >>>>>> license, or >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything >>>>>> self-serving >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually >>>>>> think not >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less >>>>>> than >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people >>>>>> can >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car >>>>>> would be >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and >>>>>> the high >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, >>>>>> so why >>>>>> not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving >>>>>> along >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will >>>>>> allowfor >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, >>>>>> thus >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other >>>>>> non >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 13:35:40 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:35:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com><-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid><003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com><004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com>, <5F6B0F9540B743F6BFC326B8AD40D2BB@userPC> , Message-ID: <001401ce3aa7$4a48d680$deda8380$@gmail.com> We're getting a little off post, but if you have been closed out for any reason, then V.R. may just need up to date records. They have to be able to justify any expendetures. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 8:57 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets I posted my delimma on this thread earlier, but noone responded. I had an evaluation in 2009, but VR didn't get me that notetaker that I needed. Now, they're talking about it, but I have to go for another evaluation! Why won't the 2009 one suffice? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:52 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets We have to get an evaluation before they get us equipment but that is the only one I know of. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets That's the same way in Arkansas, but I have a question Rania. Do you have to go for more needless evaluations, before you get your equipment? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:45 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Here in NJ you have to be working or in school in order to get any equipment but you get to keep it after using it for school because you need it for the job. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:10 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets When I worked at Teleperformance as a csr, they allowed me to keep my equipment. They actually ordered equipment for me whey I got the job. I just don't want to assume tht every state works the same, but from my studies, as long as you are employed, and college is considered employment, then you keep the equipment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets Justin, Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Hi all, > > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and >> counselor idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might >>> not be worth it until the price comes down simply because most >>> working families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in >>> different places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even >>> after this thing is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long >>> time till the price is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just >>> how autonymous this car is. Even though it might drive itself most >>> of the way, I could very well see it needing instruction to take >>> detours if needed. Say, for instance, that you've chartered your >>> course for your car remotely and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone >>> or anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some >>> consideration, since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. >>> Also, even if a car dropped one spouse off and went to get the other >>> it would be a lot of driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say >>> a blind couple lives in a house, with one office five miles to the >>> north and another five miles to the south. I realize these are very >>> small measurements, but just for the sake of thinking about this >>> we'll go with it. One person needs to be to work by eight, so the >>> car drives ten miles to the office and back. Then it leaves again >>> and drives five more miles to drop the other person off. When the >>> person who got to work by eight needs to leave, the car would drive >>> another ten miles to get them and another five to get home, then >>> another ten miles to pick up the other person and bring them home. >>> That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the couple each has their own >>> cars, which each drive just ten miles a day going back and forth to >>> work. That's half the driving, half the gas, and although there are >>> 2 cars on the road instead of one, less emissions that are not >>> healthy for the environment. What I was saying was that in order >>> for this to really work for most families the cars would have to be >>> affordable enough so people could have two at once, otherwise the >>> car would incurr other expenses on top of the already heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in >>> which the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both >>> these statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap >>> between the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. >>> I could in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, >>> as in the >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm >>> hoping to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's >>> expectation of blind people being able to have the Google cars might >>> weigh in the interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed >>> him with the intention of having him drive the google car to >>> complete the tasks of the job. I think there are a lot of >>> complicated positives and negatives to consider. >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>> Should >>>> you >>>> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>> developed >>>> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our >>>> limo driver >>>> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our >>>> personal cab driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. >>>> There's a cab driver we use regularly. We have his cell phone >>>> number and call him directly whenever >>>> >>>> we need transportation. >>>> >>>> Peter Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>> >>>> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment rate? >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or >>>>> a car with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for >>>>> innovation; however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. >>>>> If >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>> whole individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate >>>>> us as drivers. >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, >>>>> call (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and >>>>> resources need to >>>>> >>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>>>>> have enough baggage as >>>>>> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>> electricity? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>> technology along with videos showing a blind person driving the >>>>>> car on the track at Daytona Beach. The technology and the >>>>>> possibilities have all ready been demonstrated. I also understand >>>>>> that several blind individuals have driven the car on the streets >>>>>> of Baltimore with success.We all need to unite and work with >>>>>> whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone else to >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>> controllable by a blind person and that our right to operate such >>>>>> vehicles is protected. We don't need the very people who stand to >>>>>> benefit from the freedom and empowerment such a vehicle could >>>>>> give us undermining such a noble initiative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>> with you. >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>> to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly >>>>>> lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," >>>>>> but you barely ever saw the thing! >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>> from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>> disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. >>>>>> I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the >>>>>> technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it >>>>>> will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>> If you want >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>> more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to >>>>>> the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As >>>>>> for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I >>>>>> think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous >>>>>> cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>> us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be >>>>>> ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be >>>>>> after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the >>>>>> NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have >>>>>> a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or >>>>>> another. >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>> people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and >>>>>> we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up >>>>>> from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, >>>>>> successful individuals, then we should have the right to get >>>>>> around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>> think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself >>>>>> and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us >>>>>> who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and >>>>>> fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make >>>>>> sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The >>>>>> issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't >>>>>> want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time >>>>>> to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should >>>>>> have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that >>>>>> freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the >>>>>> same things as sighted people. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>> seems like you >>>>>> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>> buy one if >>>>>> >>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>> paratransit >>>>>> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and >>>>>> safe. >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>> want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>> override the >>>>>> >>>>>> car. >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>> is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>> front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going >>>>>> the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for >>>>>> pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and >>>>>> >>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>> override it when obstacles arise. >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes >>>>>> due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>> unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their >>>>>> supposed to, pedestrians who >>>>>> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>> signal is on >>>>>> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>> upon unexpected hazards. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>> ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a >>>>>> license. I just don't want to >>>>>> >>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>> people, but we >>>>>> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>> buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town >>>>>> that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really >>>>>> long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the >>>>>> opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling >>>>>> back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses >>>>>> going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a >>>>>> stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north >>>>>> or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much >>>>>> rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the >>>>>> city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to >>>>>> school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system >>>>>> isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>> other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a >>>>>> car, which more often are people who are low income, have a >>>>>> suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, >>>>>> but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I >>>>>> don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is >>>>>> most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this >>>>>> opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public >>>>>> transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money >>>>>> or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like >>>>>> saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the >>>>>> high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more >>>>>> efficient, so why not do it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>> self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 >>>>>> minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>> depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding >>>>>> extra long. >>>>>> Here >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>> FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you >>>>>> were. >>>>>> So >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>> have said before in a previous message, this technology is >>>>>> driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even >>>>>> grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and >>>>>> happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device >>>>>> that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an >>>>>> interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to >>>>>> pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take >>>>>> the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>>> think? LOL! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0eart >>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c > om >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 19:04:15 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:04:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] I-pads References: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria><6DA0DAA1-5F00-41A7-B6E6-889ABAAFF15D@gmail.com><516DF703.7000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you! I will consider this. Gloria ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kaiti Shelton" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] I-pads > Hi, > > I personally just have an Iphone since it can do everything an IPhone > can and I don't need the big screen, but I recognize having the bigger > screen has it's advantages. I've seen both the mini and the > full-sized IPad. I personally like the mini best because the big one > is quite large and a little less portable, although it might be better > (I don't know what your vision is like). If you would benefit from > the larger screen it might be something to consider, but the mini is > definitely more portable. Both are about as functional as the other, > so it's more about the size you would want. > > On 4/16/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> or get an Iphone on straight talk so you can have $45 a mont for >> everything. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 19:05:41 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:05:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] I-pads References: <6C8B8CA100974101BB41D977F314F2A0@Gloria> <6DA0DAA1-5F00-41A7-B6E6-889ABAAFF15D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6798344CDECD47B48EC17033FDE489BF@Gloria> Thank you for the suggestions ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] I-pads >I have two iPads. The first is a full-sized iPad 1St gen with wifi and >celular. While it's probably chaper, I wouldn't get that one now. > > I also have an iPad Mini with celular and wifi. That is definitely a good > deal. It's small enough to fit in a purse. It's very light. Typing > on-screen is pretty easy with the full-sized on-screen keyboard. It's as > if you are typing on a regular keyboard if you are used to touch-typing. > > Either way, I'd get a bluetooth keyboard or a Braille display like a > Refreshabraille 18, because on-screen keyboard entry is not going to cut > it for taking notes for work or school or details for roleplay your'e > doing. *grin* > > I always say get the top-of-the-line model with 64GB and both celular and > wifi because ther may be times when you will want to have cellular data > on, and you can do that for as little as $15 a month, plus, you're not > locked into a contract, you just pay to have it turned on when you need > it. We turned on all our iPads when we went on vacation. We did not need > it often, but it was good to have the option, in case something went wrong > or we got separated and needed to contact each other via the Share > Location in Maps along with the Messages app. > > Jane > > > > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 7:42 PM, "Gloria G" wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I am looking into purchasing a I-pad. Can anyone give me any suggestions >> as to which model is better? >> Thanks, >> Gloria >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 19:45:42 2013 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:45:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston Message-ID: <516efbf6.4888ec0a.75a4.5092@mx.google.com> To all of the Nfb members in Boston, I am praying for the families of those who lost their lives in the Boston bombings on Monday. I am also thinking of those who were injured. My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Boston. From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 20:19:44 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:19:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: <001401ce3aa7$4a48d680$deda8380$@gmail.com> References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> <004701ce3a9b$49362470$dba26d50$@gmail.com> <5F6B0F9540B743F6BFC326B8AD40D2BB@userPC> <001401ce3aa7$4a48d680$deda8380$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, and it's all about the paperwork. it's important to keep in mind that it's usually not the councelor's fault, they're just the middle man carrying out orders from the higher-ups and get a lot of flack for it. But Justin is right, they have to have justifyable paper trails for everything, even if it's stupid to us. (Like really, check ups to see if your vision has improved are usually not too practical, as unless you're a candidate for surgery vision tends to either stay stable if there is none or a set disorder, or deteriorate). Either way though, it's just making sure they justify where the money goes. On 4/16/13, justin williams wrote: > We're getting a little off post, but if you have been closed out for any > reason, then V.R. may just need up to date records. They have to be able > to > justify any expendetures. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 8:57 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > I posted my delimma on this thread earlier, but noone responded. > I had an evaluation in 2009, but VR didn't get me that notetaker that I > needed. > Now, they're talking about it, but I have to go for another evaluation! > Why won't the 2009 one suffice? > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT > [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:52 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > We have to get an evaluation before they get us equipment but that is the > only one I know of. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:49 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > That's the same way in Arkansas, but I have a question Rania. > Do you have to go for more needless evaluations, before you get your > equipment? > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Rania Ismail LMT > [raniaismail04 at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:45 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Here in NJ you have to be working or in school in order to get any > equipment > but you get to keep it after using it for school because you need it for > the > job. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin > williams > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:10 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > When I worked at Teleperformance as a csr, they allowed me to keep my > equipment. They actually ordered equipment for me whey I got the job. I > just don't want to assume tht every state works the same, but from my > studies, as long as you are employed, and college is considered > employment, > then you keep the equipment. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > > Justin, > > Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national thing, > and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back to them or > would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne suggested? > I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed they > take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully employed you > have the capability of saving up and buying your own equipment. It would > kind of suck if you needed something, like a laptop, for your job and > wouldn't be able to get a new one within that > 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine though, > just thought I'd try to see what you found out. > > On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: >> 90 days after employment and your case is closed. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >> >> Hi all, >> >> That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't >> think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what >> other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements >> for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. >> They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and >> give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years >> to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a >> starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to >> happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, >> "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since >> you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the >> requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." >> It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. >> >> On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google >>> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and >>> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase >>> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of >>> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think >>> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, >>> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied >>> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending >>> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and >>> counselor idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I find myself agreeing with several points. >>>> >>>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into >>>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might >>>> not be worth it until the price comes down simply because most >>>> working families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in >>>> different places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even >>>> after this thing is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long >>>> time till the price is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just >>>> how autonymous this car is. Even though it might drive itself most >>>> of the way, I could very well see it needing instruction to take >>>> detours if needed. Say, for instance, that you've chartered your >>>> course for your car remotely and you just want it to drive itself to > come pick you up somewhere. >>>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone >>>> or anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas > station. >>>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the >>>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some >>>> consideration, since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. >>>> Also, even if a car dropped one spouse off and went to get the other >>>> it would be a lot of driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say >>>> a blind couple lives in a house, with one office five miles to the >>>> north and another five miles to the south. I realize these are very >>>> small measurements, but just for the sake of thinking about this >>>> we'll go with it. One person needs to be to work by eight, so the >>>> car drives ten miles to the office and back. Then it leaves again >>>> and drives five more miles to drop the other person off. When the >>>> person who got to work by eight needs to leave, the car would drive >>>> another ten miles to get them and another five to get home, then >>>> another ten miles to pick up the other person and bring them home. >>>> That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the couple each has their own >>>> cars, which each drive just ten miles a day going back and forth to >>>> work. That's half the driving, half the gas, and although there are >>>> 2 cars on the road instead of one, less emissions that are not >>>> healthy for the environment. What I was saying was that in order >>>> for this to really work for most families the cars would have to be >>>> affordable enough so people could have two at once, otherwise the >>>> car would incurr other expenses on top of the already heightened cost > and it wouldn't be worth it. >>>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top >>>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a >>>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some >>>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in >>>> which the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both >>>> these statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap >>>> between the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. >>>> I could in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, >>>> as in the >>>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you >>>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you >>>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our >>>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm >>>> hoping to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's >>>> expectation of blind people being able to have the Google cars might >>>> weigh in the interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed >>>> him with the intention of having him drive the google car to >>>> complete the tasks of the job. I think there are a lot of >>>> complicated positives and negatives to consider. >>>> >>>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >>>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. >>>>> Should >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB >>>>> developed >>>>> >>>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our >>>>> limo driver >>>>> >>>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our >>>>> personal cab driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. >>>>> There's a cab driver we use regularly. We have his cell phone >>>>> number and call him directly whenever >>>>> >>>>> we need transportation. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment >>>>> rate? >>>>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just my own two sense: >>>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or >>>>>> a car with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. >>>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for >>>>>> innovation; however, we need to fix our problems within our society a > bit more. >>>>>> If >>>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as >>>>>> whole individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate >>>>>> us as drivers. >>>>>> I could just here the advertizement: >>>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, >>>>>> call (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and >>>>>> resources need to >>>>>> >>>>>> be properly prioritized. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other >>>>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving >>>>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people >>>>>>> have enough baggage as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. >>>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie >>>>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never >>>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, >>>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've >>>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. >>>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just >>>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more >>>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another >>>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution >>>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one >>>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or >>>>>>> electricity? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow, Peter! >>>>>>> Like minds huh? >>>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! >>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter >>>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this >>>>>>> technology along with videos showing a blind person driving the >>>>>>> car on the track at Daytona Beach. The technology and the >>>>>>> possibilities have all ready been demonstrated. I also understand >>>>>>> that several blind individuals have driven the car on the streets >>>>>>> of Baltimore with success.We all need to unite and work with >>>>>>> whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone else to >>>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is >>>>>>> controllable by a blind person and that our right to operate such >>>>>>> vehicles is protected. We don't need the very people who stand to >>>>>>> benefit from the freedom and empowerment such a vehicle could >>>>>>> give us undermining such a noble initiative. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Amen, Patrick! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Patrick Molloy >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree >>>>>>> with you. >>>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way >>>>>>> to go, don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly >>>>>>> lost faith in the NFB car. Sure it was "made for blind people," >>>>>>> but you barely ever saw the thing! >>>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away >>>>>>> from the public and then give no explanation when it essentially >>>>>>> disappears. I'm not saying that the Google car would be perfect. >>>>>>> I'm not fooling myself with that idea. But, I think that the >>>>>>> technology is really impressive and, with some modifications, it >>>>>>> will be great for blind people. But hey! >>>>>>> If you want >>>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, >>>>>>> more power to you. It just seems like this all runs counter to >>>>>>> the philosophy that many people within the NFB preach daily. As >>>>>>> for your arguments as to why blind people shouldn't drive, I >>>>>>> think if you read the articles about the potential of autonomous >>>>>>> cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears more or less >>>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for >>>>>>> us blind people to avoid it like the plague. That would be >>>>>>> ridiculous! If I decide not to get this car, it would only be >>>>>>> after I'd tried it out and found it not to my liking. Since the >>>>>>> NFB car is more or less dead, I feel that we as blind people have >>>>>>> a responsibility to get behind the Google car in one way or >>>>>>> another. >>>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind >>>>>>> people when we need something? Well, we need to get around and >>>>>>> we're tired of waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up >>>>>>> from soccer practice! If we're going to be independent, >>>>>>> successful individuals, then we should have the right to get >>>>>>> around just like our sighted colleagues. >>>>>>> Separate is not >>>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may >>>>>>> think it ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself >>>>>>> and Carly to at least consider the point of view of those of us >>>>>>> who want to drive like our brothers and sisters, mothers and >>>>>>> fathers. You may think us self-serving, but doesn't that make >>>>>>> sighted people self-serving? I mean, they can take a bus too! The >>>>>>> issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a bus if we don't >>>>>>> want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've got time >>>>>>> to kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should >>>>>>> have the same freedom that all sighted people have. With that >>>>>>> freedom will come the realization that blind people can do the >>>>>>> same things as sighted people. >>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it >>>>>>> seems like you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd >>>>>>> buy one if >>>>>>> >>>>>>> given a choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden >>>>>>> paratransit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. >>>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient and >>>>>>> safe. >>>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you >>>>>>> want to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to >>>>>>> override the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> car. >>>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car >>>>>>> is self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. >>>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in >>>>>>> front of us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going >>>>>>> the speed limit and you got to move around them, waiting for >>>>>>> pedestrians to walk, rode rage, and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> drunk drivers. >>>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to >>>>>>> override it when obstacles arise. >>>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the brakes >>>>>>> due to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who >>>>>>> unexpectedly turn without turning on their turn signal like their >>>>>>> supposed to, pedestrians who >>>>>>> >>>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk >>>>>>> signal is on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and >>>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. >>>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with eyes >>>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act >>>>>>> upon unexpected hazards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right >>>>>>> ahead and you never know who might be hurt if you even get a >>>>>>> license. I just don't want to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be on the road with you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind >>>>>>> people, but we >>>>>>> >>>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with >>>>>>> buses I have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town >>>>>>> that I need to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really >>>>>>> long time to get to which sometimes involves going in the >>>>>>> opposite way of the destination for a while and then circling >>>>>>> back because of Dayton's bus system. (It's organized by buses >>>>>>> going north-south and east-west, but sometimes when you're at a >>>>>>> stop the time of the bus won't tell you if the bus is going north >>>>>>> or south, or east or west so you have to roll with it. I'd much >>>>>>> rather just get into a car and drive than boomerang around the >>>>>>> city just to get to one place, and then do it again returning to >>>>>>> school. And because of this, and the fact that it the bus system >>>>>>> isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider it >>>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and >>>>>>> other programs of public transit for people who can't drive a >>>>>>> car, which more often are people who are low income, have a >>>>>>> suspended license, or who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, >>>>>>> but if I and other blind people can afford a car and want one I >>>>>>> don't see anything self-serving in that, it's just doing what is >>>>>>> most efficient. I actually think not taking advantage of this >>>>>>> opportunity on the basis that the less than efficient public >>>>>>> transit systems work fine and that other people can use the money >>>>>>> or whatever that would go into buying this car would be like >>>>>>> saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could >>>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and the >>>>>>> high school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more >>>>>>> efficient, so why not do it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be >>>>>>> self serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 >>>>>>> minutes instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, >>>>>>> depending on if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding >>>>>>> extra long. >>>>>>> Here >>>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee >>>>>>> FL where there was no automated system to tell you where you >>>>>>> were. >>>>>>> So >>>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I >>>>>>> have said before in a previous message, this technology is >>>>>>> driving along the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even >>>>>>> grinning and daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and >>>>>>> happy that I'm frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device >>>>>>> that will allowfor me to get to the office quicker, or to an >>>>>>> interview on time, thus allowing me to have greater chances to >>>>>>> pay my taxes so you other non self serving blind people can take >>>>>>> the bus. I think it's a neat little circle of irony, don't you >>>>>>> think? LOL! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>> t104 >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>>> 0eart >>>>>>> hlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>>> 40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s >>>>>>> atx.rr.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >>>>>>> 0pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c >> om >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o > nmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 21:16:03 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:16:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston In-Reply-To: <516efbf6.4888ec0a.75a4.5092@mx.google.com> References: <516efbf6.4888ec0a.75a4.5092@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00dc01ce3bb0$c617bb50$524731f0$@gmail.com> Roanna, Thank you for this post. My prayers are also with the people of boston as they try to make sense of the senseless. What a horrific tragedy. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Baccchus Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:46 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston To all of the Nfb members in Boston, I am praying for the families of those who lost their lives in the Boston bombings on Monday. I am also thinking of those who were injured. My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Boston. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From joshkart12 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 21:21:06 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:21:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston In-Reply-To: <00dc01ce3bb0$c617bb50$524731f0$@gmail.com> References: <516efbf6.4888ec0a.75a4.5092@mx.google.com> <00dc01ce3bb0$c617bb50$524731f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3329F502-F92C-423F-BD82-8B0F2C657000@gmail.com> Yes, I definitely add my condolences to these thoughts. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: > Roanna, > > Thank you for this post. My prayers are also with the people of boston as > they try to make sense of the senseless. What a horrific tragedy. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Baccchus > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:46 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston > > To all of the Nfb members in Boston, > > I am praying for the families of those who lost their lives in the Boston > bombings on Monday. I am also thinking of those who were injured. My > thoughts and prayers are with the people of Boston. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 23:43:15 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:43:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: looking for users experincing inaccessibility with Google Apps References: <2E77F7FE85FE99418761668AE1AA779E20B4FA82@SN2PRD0710MB382.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1783C6CE-A18F-4573-97C8-BE21925B7F05@gmail.com> Hello all, I have been asked to circulate the following, and strongly encourage you to read the below /contact this person as requested if the below fits your situation. Thank you in advance, Darian Begin forwarded message: > From: "Yingling, Valerie" > Subject: FW: looking for users experincing inaccessibility with Google Apps > Date: April 17, 2013 12:07:11 PM PDT > To: "Darien Smith (dsmithnfb at gmail.com)" > > > > The NFB wants to see what can be done to address the problem of the inaccessibility of Google Apps in the workplace and on campus. To that end, the NFB would like to hear from employees or students - by telephone only - who have experienced inaccessibility with any of Google’s applications, including but not limited to the following: > > Google Docs > Gmail > Google Calendar > Google Slides > Google Plus > Google Drive > Google Scholar > > If you have encountered such difficulties and would like to help us, DO NOT RESPOND BY EMAIL, but instead please call Valerie Yingling at 410-659-9314 x2440. > > Thank you, > Valerie > > > Valerie Yingling > National Federation of the Blind > Telephone: 410-659-9314 ext. 2440 > > > From kingettr at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 02:41:56 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:41:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Audio description review: She Kills Monsters In-Reply-To: <3329F502-F92C-423F-BD82-8B0F2C657000@gmail.com> References: <516efbf6.4888ec0a.75a4.5092@mx.google.com> <00dc01ce3bb0$c617bb50$524731f0$@gmail.com> <3329F502-F92C-423F-BD82-8B0F2C657000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516F5D74.3040405@gmail.com> Hi guys! I just want to tell you that my review of her kills monsters is now published! The title is ‘She Kills Monsters’: A Fun Game of Chance and it can be found at the link below. Enjoy! http://americascomedy.com/she-kills-monsters-a-fun-game-of-chanceshe-kills-monsters-theater-steppenwolf-theater-company-play-comedy-chicago/ From hope.paulos at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 02:37:52 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:37:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible survey creation services? Message-ID: <357D5BD0-486C-4185-AA7B-BD68094C524C@gmail.com> Hi Al! I need to create an online survey for one of my classes. Can you tell me what is an Accessible survey creation service? Preferably free? Thanks! Hope Sent from my iPhone From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 01:26:31 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:26:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston In-Reply-To: <3329F502-F92C-423F-BD82-8B0F2C657000@gmail.com> References: <516efbf6.4888ec0a.75a4.5092@mx.google.com> <00dc01ce3bb0$c617bb50$524731f0$@gmail.com> <3329F502-F92C-423F-BD82-8B0F2C657000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004a01ce3b0a$982b4f50$c881edf0$@gmail.com> I'm following suit. My condolences to all of the folks in Boston. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston Yes, I definitely add my condolences to these thoughts. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: > Roanna, > > Thank you for this post. My prayers are also with the people of boston > as they try to make sense of the senseless. What a horrific tragedy. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna > Baccchus > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:46 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] My Heart Goes out to Boston > > To all of the Nfb members in Boston, > > I am praying for the families of those who lost their lives in the > Boston bombings on Monday. I am also thinking of those who were > injured. My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Boston. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail > .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kwakmiso at aol.com Thu Apr 18 15:31:29 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program In-Reply-To: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8D00A60EE3505AD-192C-9397@webmail-d266.sysops.aol.com> I have previously discussed this matter and am aware that Colorado Center staff are on the list. Before I start writing letter of justification to California Department of Rehab I would like to hear from people who participated in the program. The program I aim to attend is Summer for Success College-Prep program. If you have participated in this program please share your experience with me either on or off list. What I would like to achieve the most over the summer before I start college are the following: Improvement in orientation and mobility skills Using JAWS (I use a Korean made screen reader; only know the basics of JAWS) Improvement in home management skills (cooking, cleaning, etc) I know that the college prep program's curriculum includes academic aspects of college and how to access the disabilities services. This could vary from person to person, but generally, would learning such things be helpful and worth the time? Knowing myself this summer might be the only time I attend such training programs. While I am afraid of supposedly rigorous college academics, I am not 100% sure if attending a program that includes academic help in a way would substantially benefit me. I know for a fact, I need to improve on O&M and home management and obtaining training in those areas will benefit me for a long time. However, I am not willing to spend a year training on those skills. The summer might not be enough but I will do my best to learn and maintain the skills afterwards especially now. Based on what you have read so far, would you suggest any program other than CCB's summer success for college program? Based on your experience, what would you do differently? What advice would you give me? Miso Kwak From zdreicer at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 15:45:16 2013 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:45:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program In-Reply-To: <8D00A60EE3505AD-192C-9397@webmail-d266.sysops.aol.com> References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> <8D00A60EE3505AD-192C-9397@webmail-d266.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Good morning Miso, I am attending the very same program, and really like the Colorado Center and their staff. I have attended both the mid school and high school programs before and have refered many friends to CCB. Sent from my Acer Aspire As5733 -----Original Message----- From: Miso Kwak Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:31 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program I have previously discussed this matter and am aware that Colorado Center staff are on the list. Before I start writing letter of justification to California Department of Rehab I would like to hear from people who participated in the program. The program I aim to attend is Summer for Success College-Prep program. If you have participated in this program please share your experience with me either on or off list. What I would like to achieve the most over the summer before I start college are the following: Improvement in orientation and mobility skills Using JAWS (I use a Korean made screen reader; only know the basics of JAWS) Improvement in home management skills (cooking, cleaning, etc) I know that the college prep program's curriculum includes academic aspects of college and how to access the disabilities services. This could vary from person to person, but generally, would learning such things be helpful and worth the time? Knowing myself this summer might be the only time I attend such training programs. While I am afraid of supposedly rigorous college academics, I am not 100% sure if attending a program that includes academic help in a way would substantially benefit me. I know for a fact, I need to improve on O&M and home management and obtaining training in those areas will benefit me for a long time. However, I am not willing to spend a year training on those skills. The summer might not be enough but I will do my best to learn and maintain the skills afterwards especially now. Based on what you have read so far, would you suggest any program other than CCB's summer success for college program? Based on your experience, what would you do differently? What advice would you give me? Miso Kwak _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 15:59:12 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:59:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal Message-ID: I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot continue with mediation. Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes sense. It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" This is part of what I wrote in the appeal "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the service I requested. I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed by Dr Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until January 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided to fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not right for reading. I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in Indianapolis. Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize in being able determine the right color and percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during class and in study areas of campus." I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye Associates. They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just determining color. Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" So frustrating... From tyler at tysdomain.com Thu Apr 18 16:18:44 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:18:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> Suzanne: While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this message. Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy resolution of problems. if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that route and explain the situation and the due date to them. Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. HTH, On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April 11th > I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had agreed to > mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly > shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was agreeable > to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot continue with mediation. > Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does not even > understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do not agree and > still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique since I need the > approval by May 14th. > > I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become employed > why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes sense. > > It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read my > original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you would > have never sent the letter you did" > > This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > > "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on the > fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the service I > requested. > > I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. I > have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed by Dr > Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until January > 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside > and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided to > fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to work; my > requirements have changed. The current contacts are too dark and very > likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of classroom and homework. The > classrooms are not extremely bright as many dim the lights somewhat for > power point presentations. It is still much to bright for no filter but too > dark for the reds I have. I have also noticed that the red makes reading > difficult. After much research I have found many achromats go with a > lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already > tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my > low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the > contacts in addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is > not right for reading. > > I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low vision > contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in Indianapolis. > Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize in > being able determine the right color and percent color of the lenses. It is > an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on contact lenses of > several colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and how > they work outside with my script sunglasses. What will be the best for the > average lighting I will be in during class and in study areas of campus." > > I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and how > they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye Associates. > They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in Indiana > has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just determining color. > Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The Drs > jsut use "the most popular colors" > > > So frustrating... > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 16:26:24 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:26:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: I did go up higher I filed a formal appeal. I got an a call from the ombudsman telling me my counselor told them I no longer wanted to appeal which was completely untrue. I told htem I wanted the appeal and chose mediation. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Suzanne: > While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really lovely > dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this message. > Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > > DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the > best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be part > of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy resolution > of problems. > if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state > office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that route > and explain the situation and the due date to them. > > Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but going > higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. > HTH, > On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April 11th >> I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had agreed to >> mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly >> shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was agreeable >> to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot continue with mediation. >> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does not >> even >> understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do not agree and >> still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique since I need the >> approval by May 14th. >> >> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become employed >> why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes sense. >> >> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read my >> original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you would >> have never sent the letter you did" >> >> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >> >> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on the >> fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the service I >> requested. >> >> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. I >> have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed by Dr >> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until January >> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >> to >> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to work; my >> requirements have changed. The current contacts are too dark and very >> likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of classroom and homework. The >> classrooms are not extremely bright as many dim the lights somewhat for >> power point presentations. It is still much to bright for no filter but >> too >> dark for the reds I have. I have also noticed that the red makes reading >> difficult. After much research I have found many achromats go with a >> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already >> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through >> my >> low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the >> contacts in addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is >> not right for reading. >> >> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low vision >> contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in Indianapolis. >> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize in >> being able determine the right color and percent color of the lenses. It >> is >> an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on contact lenses of >> several colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and how >> they work outside with my script sunglasses. What will be the best for the >> average lighting I will be in during class and in study areas of campus." >> >> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and how >> they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye Associates. >> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in Indiana >> has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just determining color. >> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The Drs >> jsut use "the most popular colors" >> >> >> So frustrating... >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> tyler%40tysdomain.com >> > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that dares not reason is a slave. > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 16:24:47 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:24:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services out of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not even reading what you send them. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Suzanne: > While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really lovely > dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this message. > Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > > DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the > best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be part > of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy resolution > of problems. > if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state > office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that route > and explain the situation and the due date to them. > > Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but going > higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. > HTH, > On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April 11th >> I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had agreed to >> mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly >> shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was agreeable >> to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot continue with mediation. >> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does not >> even >> understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do not agree and >> still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique since I need the >> approval by May 14th. >> >> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become employed >> why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes sense. >> >> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read my >> original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you would >> have never sent the letter you did" >> >> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >> >> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on the >> fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the service I >> requested. >> >> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. I >> have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed by Dr >> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until January >> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >> to >> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to work; my >> requirements have changed. The current contacts are too dark and very >> likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of classroom and homework. The >> classrooms are not extremely bright as many dim the lights somewhat for >> power point presentations. It is still much to bright for no filter but >> too >> dark for the reds I have. I have also noticed that the red makes reading >> difficult. After much research I have found many achromats go with a >> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already >> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through >> my >> low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the >> contacts in addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is >> not right for reading. >> >> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low vision >> contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in Indianapolis. >> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize in >> being able determine the right color and percent color of the lenses. It >> is >> an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on contact lenses of >> several colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and how >> they work outside with my script sunglasses. What will be the best for the >> average lighting I will be in during class and in study areas of campus." >> >> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and how >> they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye Associates. >> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in Indiana >> has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just determining color. >> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The Drs >> jsut use "the most popular colors" >> >> >> So frustrating... >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> tyler%40tysdomain.com >> > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that dares not reason is a slave. > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 17:31:47 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:31:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. Failing that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out with the counselor and the supervisor. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services out of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not even reading what you send them. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Suzanne: > While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really > lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this message. > Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > > DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the > best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be > part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy > resolution of problems. > if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state > office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that > route and explain the situation and the due date to them. > > Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but > going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. > HTH, > On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April >> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had >> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter >> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked >> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot continue with mediation. >> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does >> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do >> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique >> since I need the approval by May 14th. >> >> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes sense. >> >> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read >> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you >> would have never sent the letter you did" >> >> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >> >> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on >> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the >> service I requested. >> >> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. >> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed by Dr >> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until January >> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >> to >> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as >> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is >> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. >> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much >> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even >> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the >> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision >> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not >> right for reading. >> >> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in Indianapolis. >> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize >> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the >> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on >> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work >> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. >> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during >> class and in study areas of campus." >> >> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and >> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye Associates. >> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in >> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just determining color. >> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The >> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >> >> >> So frustrating... >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> tyler%40tysdomain.com> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >> > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; > he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu > .edu u.edu> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 17:35:12 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:35:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The counselor says the supervisor denied it. The supervisor says the counselor denied it. I have already filed an official appeal to do mediation. Teh supervisor did not even want to provide me names of teh 4 vendors thy use for low vision exams so that I could ask them their experience with achromats and selecting colored lenses. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, justin williams < justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote: > Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. > Failing > that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out > with > the counselor and the supervisor. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services out > of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate > service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people who > are clearly not even reading what you send them. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > wrote: > > > Suzanne: > > While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really > > lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this > message. > > Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > > > > DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the > > best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be > > part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy > > resolution of problems. > > if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state > > office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that > > route and explain the situation and the due date to them. > > > > Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but > > going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. > > HTH, > > On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > > >> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April > >> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had > >> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter > >> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked > >> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot > continue with mediation. > >> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does > >> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do > >> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique > >> since I need the approval by May 14th. > >> > >> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become > >> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes > sense. > >> > >> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read > >> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you > >> would have never sent the letter you did" > >> > >> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >> > >> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on > >> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the > >> service I requested. > >> > >> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. > >> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed > by > Dr > >> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until > January > >> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside > >> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided > >> to > >> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to > >> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too > >> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of > >> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as > >> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is > >> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. > >> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much > >> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even > >> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the > >> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision > >> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in > >> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not > >> right for reading. > >> > >> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low > >> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in > Indianapolis. > >> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize > >> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the > >> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on > >> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work > >> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. > >> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during > >> class and in study areas of campus." > >> > >> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and > >> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye > Associates. > >> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in > >> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just > determining color. > >> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The > >> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >> > >> > >> So frustrating... > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> tyler%40tysdomain.com >> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Take care, > > Ty > > http://tds-solutions.net > > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > > http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > > > > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; > > he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu > > .edu > u.edu> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 17:36:00 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:36:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying attention to. I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you have to go to. On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. > Failing > that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out > with > the counselor and the supervisor. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services out > of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate > service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people who > are clearly not even reading what you send them. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > wrote: > >> Suzanne: >> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really >> lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this > message. >> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >> >> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the >> best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be >> part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy >> resolution of problems. >> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state >> office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that >> route and explain the situation and the due date to them. >> >> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but >> going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. >> HTH, >> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April >>> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had >>> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter >>> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked >>> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot > continue with mediation. >>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does >>> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do >>> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique >>> since I need the approval by May 14th. >>> >>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes >>> sense. >>> >>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read >>> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you >>> would have never sent the letter you did" >>> >>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >>> >>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on >>> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the >>> service I requested. >>> >>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. >>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed >>> by > Dr >>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until > January >>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >>> to >>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as >>> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is >>> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. >>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much >>> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even >>> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the >>> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision >>> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not >>> right for reading. >>> >>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in > Indianapolis. >>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize >>> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the >>> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on >>> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work >>> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. >>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during >>> class and in study areas of campus." >>> >>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and >>> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye > Associates. >>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in >>> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just > determining color. >>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The >>> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >>> >>> >>> So frustrating... >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> tyler%40tysdomain.com>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >> >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >> he that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu >> .edu> u.edu> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 17:40:35 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:40:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I could. If you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you may be able to speed things up. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal Hi, Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying attention to. I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you have to go to. On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. > Failing > that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out > with > the counselor and the supervisor. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services out > of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate > service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people who > are clearly not even reading what you send them. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > wrote: > >> Suzanne: >> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really >> lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this > message. >> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >> >> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the >> best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be >> part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy >> resolution of problems. >> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state >> office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that >> route and explain the situation and the due date to them. >> >> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but >> going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. >> HTH, >> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April >>> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had >>> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter >>> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked >>> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot > continue with mediation. >>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does >>> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do >>> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique >>> since I need the approval by May 14th. >>> >>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes >>> sense. >>> >>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read >>> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you >>> would have never sent the letter you did" >>> >>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >>> >>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on >>> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the >>> service I requested. >>> >>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. >>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed >>> by > Dr >>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until > January >>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >>> to >>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as >>> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is >>> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. >>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much >>> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even >>> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the >>> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision >>> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not >>> right for reading. >>> >>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in > Indianapolis. >>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize >>> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the >>> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on >>> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work >>> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. >>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during >>> class and in study areas of campus." >>> >>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and >>> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye > Associates. >>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in >>> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just > determining color. >>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The >>> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >>> >>> >>> So frustrating... >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> tyler%40tysdomain.com>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >> >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >> he that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu >> .edu> u.edu> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 18:15:22 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:15:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I could. > If > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you may be > able to speed things up. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > Hi, > > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what you > send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to even > bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying attention > to. > > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to me > like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the next > person up is probably the one you have to go to. > > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. >> Failing >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out >> with >> the counselor and the supervisor. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services >> out >> of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate >> service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people >> who >> are clearly not even reading what you send them. >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >> wrote: >> >>> Suzanne: >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really >>> lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of >>> this >> message. >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >>> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the >>> best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be >>> part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy >>> resolution of problems. >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state >>> office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that >>> route and explain the situation and the due date to them. >>> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but >>> going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work >>> with. >>> HTH, >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April >>>> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had >>>> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter >>>> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked >>>> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot >> continue with mediation. >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does >>>> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do >>>> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique >>>> since I need the approval by May 14th. >>>> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes >>>> sense. >>>> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read >>>> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you >>>> would have never sent the letter you did" >>>> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >>>> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on >>>> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the >>>> service I requested. >>>> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed >>>> by >> Dr >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until >> January >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly >>>> outside >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I >>>> decided >>>> to >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as >>>> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is >>>> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much >>>> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even >>>> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the >>>> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision >>>> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not >>>> right for reading. >>>> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in >> Indianapolis. >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize >>>> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the >>>> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on >>>> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work >>>> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during >>>> class and in study areas of campus." >>>> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and >>>> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye >> Associates. >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in >>>> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just >> determining color. >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The >>>> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >>>> >>>> >>>> So frustrating... >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >>> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >>> he that dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu >>> .edu>> u.edu> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Apr 18 18:31:01 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:31:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130418112401.01c4efa8@comcast.net> Good morning, Suzanne, While I don't share in a belief that DOR can't work for you, should you make it work for you, yu were indeed sent on a wild goose chase, trying to identify which modifications will suit your visual acuity! Hope you found answers, and are able to make use of what you did find, that proves helpful.At 08:59 AM 4/18/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: >I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April 11th >I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had agreed to >mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly >shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was agreeable >to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot continue with mediation. >Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does not even >understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do not agree and >still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique since I need the >approval by May 14th. > >I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become employed >why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes sense. > >It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read my >original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you would >have never sent the letter you did" > >This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > > "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on the >fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the service I >requested. > >I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. I >have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed by Dr >Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until January >2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided to >fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to work; my >requirements have changed. The current contacts are too dark and very >likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of classroom and homework. The >classrooms are not extremely bright as many dim the lights somewhat for >power point presentations. It is still much to bright for no filter but too >dark for the reds I have. I have also noticed that the red makes reading >difficult. After much research I have found many achromats go with a >lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already >tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my >low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the >contacts in addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is >not right for reading. > >I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low vision >contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in Indianapolis. >Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize in >being able determine the right color and percent color of the lenses. It is >an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on contact lenses of >several colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and how >they work outside with my script sunglasses. What will be the best for the >average lighting I will be in during class and in study areas of campus." > >I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and how >they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye Associates. >They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in Indiana >has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just determining color. >Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The Drs >jsut use "the most popular colors" > > >So frustrating... >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 18:40:43 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:40:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a clear understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid for red contacts ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school started. I tried going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that I only need because of returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was not going to start the semester in a position to fail. What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts if ordered form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they will nto pay for a doctor who specializes in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak > directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I could. > > If > > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you may be > > able to speed things up. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > Shelton > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > > > Hi, > > > > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what you > > send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to even > > bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying attention > > to. > > > > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to me > > like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the next > > person up is probably the one you have to go to. > > > > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. > >> Failing > >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out > >> with > >> the counselor and the supervisor. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > >> Germano > >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> > >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services > >> out > >> of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate > >> service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people > >> who > >> are clearly not even reading what you send them. > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Suzanne: > >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really > >>> lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of > >>> this > >> message. > >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > >>> > >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the > >>> best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be > >>> part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy > >>> resolution of problems. > >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state > >>> office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that > >>> route and explain the situation and the due date to them. > >>> > >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but > >>> going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work > >>> with. > >>> HTH, > >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>> > >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April > >>>> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had > >>>> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter > >>>> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked > >>>> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot > >> continue with mediation. > >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does > >>>> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do > >>>> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique > >>>> since I need the approval by May 14th. > >>>> > >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become > >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes > >>>> sense. > >>>> > >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read > >>>> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you > >>>> would have never sent the letter you did" > >>>> > >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >>>> > >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on > >>>> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the > >>>> service I requested. > >>>> > >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. > >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed > >>>> by > >> Dr > >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until > >> January > >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly > >>>> outside > >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I > >>>> decided > >>>> to > >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to > >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too > >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of > >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as > >>>> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is > >>>> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. > >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much > >>>> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even > >>>> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the > >>>> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision > >>>> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in > >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not > >>>> right for reading. > >>>> > >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low > >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in > >> Indianapolis. > >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize > >>>> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the > >>>> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on > >>>> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work > >>>> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. > >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during > >>>> class and in study areas of campus." > >>>> > >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and > >>>> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye > >> Associates. > >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in > >>>> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just > >> determining color. > >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The > >>>> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So frustrating... > >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Take care, > >>> Ty > >>> http://tds-solutions.net > >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > >>> > >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; > >>> he that dares not reason is a slave. > >>> > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu > >>> .edu >>> u.edu> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > > l.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 18:39:11 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:39:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-4268514221214612681@unknownmsgid> Suzanne, I agree with Kaiti and others. Perhaps you could talk with the director of your voc rehab agency, or at least the division for the blind within that agency? If necessary, you may need to contact the leaders of your state's NFB affiliate for support in dealing with them. Good luck! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what you > send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to even > bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying attention > to. > > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to me > like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the next > person up is probably the one you have to go to. > > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. >> Failing >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out >> with >> the counselor and the supervisor. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services out >> of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate >> service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people who >> are clearly not even reading what you send them. >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >> wrote: >> >>> Suzanne: >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really >>> lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this >> message. >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >>> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the >>> best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be >>> part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy >>> resolution of problems. >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state >>> office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that >>> route and explain the situation and the due date to them. >>> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but >>> going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. >>> HTH, >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April >>>> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had >>>> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter >>>> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked >>>> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot >> continue with mediation. >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does >>>> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do >>>> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique >>>> since I need the approval by May 14th. >>>> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes >>>> sense. >>>> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read >>>> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you >>>> would have never sent the letter you did" >>>> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >>>> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on >>>> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the >>>> service I requested. >>>> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed >>>> by >> Dr >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until >> January >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >>>> to >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as >>>> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is >>>> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much >>>> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even >>>> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the >>>> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision >>>> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not >>>> right for reading. >>>> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in >> Indianapolis. >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize >>>> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the >>>> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on >>>> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work >>>> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during >>>> class and in study areas of campus." >>>> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and >>>> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye >> Associates. >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in >>>> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just >> determining color. >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The >>>> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >>>> >>>> >>>> So frustrating... >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >>> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >>> he that dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu >>> .edu>> u.edu> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 18:42:27 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:42:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6321788444442022547@unknownmsgid> Looks like you'll need to go beyond the supervisor. In government, every supervisor has someone who supervises him/her. So, I would go as far up the ladder as you need to go until you get the services you need. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:36 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > The counselor says the supervisor denied it. The supervisor says the > counselor denied it. I have already filed an official appeal to do > mediation. Teh supervisor did not even want to provide me names of teh 4 > vendors thy use for low vision exams so that I could ask them their > experience with achromats and selecting colored lenses. > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, justin williams < > justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. >> Failing >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it out >> with >> the counselor and the supervisor. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting services out >> of state when a similar service is available in state but the instate >> service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way to deal with people who >> are clearly not even reading what you send them. >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >> wrote: >> >>> Suzanne: >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a really >>> lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you want out of this >> message. >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >>> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do the >>> best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend to be >>> part of the government; the government isn't exactly known for speedy >>> resolution of problems. >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a state >>> office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you take that >>> route and explain the situation and the due date to them. >>> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, but >>> going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to work with. >>> HTH, >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April >>>> 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had >>>> agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter >>>> which clearly shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked >>>> if I was agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot >> continue with mediation. >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does >>>> not even understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do >>>> not agree and still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique >>>> since I need the approval by May 14th. >>>> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes >> sense. >>>> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read >>>> my original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you >>>> would have never sent the letter you did" >>>> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >>>> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on >>>> the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the >>>> service I requested. >>>> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed >> by >> Dr >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until >> January >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >>>> to >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright as >>>> many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It is >>>> still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After much >>>> research I have found many achromats go with a lighter filter or even >>>> a different color browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the >>>> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through my low vision >>>> specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not >>>> right for reading. >>>> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in >> Indianapolis. >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize >>>> in being able determine the right color and percent color of the >>>> lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on >>>> contact lenses of several colors and darkness and see how they work >>>> for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in during >>>> class and in study areas of campus." >>>> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and >>>> how they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye >> Associates. >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in >>>> Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just >> determining color. >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The >>>> Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >>>> >>>> >>>> So frustrating... >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >>> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >>> he that dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu >>> .edu>> u.edu> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 18:45:45 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:45:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130418112401.01c4efa8@comcast.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20130418112401.01c4efa8@comcast.net> Message-ID: What is DOR? The doctors in AZ do not have all the colors of contacts to try on. In an achromat filtering light and glare is the most important thing. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Suzanne, > > While I don't share in a belief that DOR can't work for you, > should you make it work for you, yu were indeed sent on a wild goose chase, > trying to identify which modifications will suit your visual acuity! > Hope you found answers, and are able to make use of what you did find, > that proves helpful.At 08:59 AM 4/18/2013, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On April 11th >> I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her supervisor had agreed to >> mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly >> shows he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was agreeable >> to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot continue with mediation. >> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly does not >> even >> understand the request I had to fax him today saying No I do not agree and >> still want mediation. I think it was a delay technique since I need the >> approval by May 14th. >> >> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become employed >> why everything is such a battle and nothing they do makes sense. >> >> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not read my >> original request or my appeal with supporting documentation or you would >> have never sent the letter you did" >> >> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >> >> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based on the >> fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot provide the service I >> requested. >> >> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. I >> have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them prescribed by Dr >> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until January >> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly outside >> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I decided >> to >> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to work; my >> requirements have changed. The current contacts are too dark and very >> likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of classroom and homework. The >> classrooms are not extremely bright as many dim the lights somewhat for >> power point presentations. It is still much to bright for no filter but >> too >> dark for the reds I have. I have also noticed that the red makes reading >> difficult. After much research I have found many achromats go with a >> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already >> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, through >> my >> low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the >> contacts in addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is >> not right for reading. >> >> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low vision >> contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates in Indianapolis. >> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and specialize in >> being able determine the right color and percent color of the lenses. It >> is >> an extensive 4 hours appointment in which I try on contact lenses of >> several colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and how >> they work outside with my script sunglasses. What will be the best for the >> average lighting I will be in during class and in study areas of campus." >> >> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors and how >> they determine color. None of them did anything similar to Eye Associates. >> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic in Indiana >> has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just determining color. >> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. The Drs >> jsut use "the most popular colors" >> >> >> So frustrating... >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> carlymih%40comcast.net >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 18:59:25 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:59:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> Go as high as you have to go. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a clear understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid for red contacts ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school started. I tried going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that I only need because of returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was not going to start the semester in a position to fail. What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts if ordered form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they will nto pay for a doctor who specializes in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak > directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I could. > > If > > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you > > may be able to speed things up. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > Shelton > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > > > Hi, > > > > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what > > you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to > > even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying > > attention to. > > > > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to > > me like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the > > next person up is probably the one you have to go to. > > > > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. > >> Failing > >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it > >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> Suzanne Germano > >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> > >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting > >> services out of state when a similar service is available in state > >> but the instate service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way > >> to deal with people who are clearly not even reading what you send > >> them. > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Suzanne: > >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a > >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you > >>> want out of this > >> message. > >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > >>> > >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do > >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend > >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly known > >>> for speedy resolution of problems. > >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a > >>> state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you > >>> take that route and explain the situation and the due date to them. > >>> > >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, > >>> but going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to > >>> work with. > >>> HTH, > >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>> > >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On > >>>> April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her > >>>> supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor > >>>> sends me a letter which clearly shows he never read the appeal > >>>> documentation and asked if I was agreeable to the conditions of > >>>> the letter or if I wanted ot > >> continue with mediation. > >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly > >>>> does not even understand the request I had to fax him today > >>>> saying No I do not agree and still want mediation. I think it was > >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. > >>>> > >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become > >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do > >>>> makes sense. > >>>> > >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not > >>>> read my original request or my appeal with supporting > >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" > >>>> > >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >>>> > >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based > >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot > >>>> provide the service I requested. > >>>> > >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light sensitivity. > >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them > >>>> prescribed by > >> Dr > >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until > >> January > >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly > >>>> outside > >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I > >>>> decided > >>>> to > >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to > >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too > >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of > >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright > >>>> as many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It > >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I have. > >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After > >>>> much research I have found many achromats go with a lighter > >>>> filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already > >>>> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, > >>>> through my low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I > >>>> paid $400 for the contacts in addition to the exam just to find > >>>> out that even this level is not right for reading. > >>>> > >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low > >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates > >>>> in > >> Indianapolis. > >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and > >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and percent > >>>> color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in > >>>> which I try on contact lenses of several colors and darkness and > >>>> see how they work for reading , and how they work outside with my script sunglasses. > >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in > >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." > >>>> > >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors > >>>> and how they determine color. None of them did anything similar > >>>> to Eye > >> Associates. > >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic > >>>> in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just > >> determining color. > >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. > >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So frustrating... > >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com >>>> bnet > >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Take care, > >>> Ty > >>> http://tds-solutions.net > >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > >>> > >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a > >>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > >>> > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 > >>> 0asu > >>> .edu >>> 40as > >>> u.edu> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmai > > l.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 19:05:53 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:05:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have grounds for a lawsuit. I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. They would know the system much better than any of us and would be able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what you have to do to make sure your needs are met. On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > Go as high as you have to go. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a clear > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal with 12 > supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request and follow up > letter > were very clear on what I needed and why. > > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I already > paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid for red contacts > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school started. I tried > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they are still > not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for the approval > process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that I only need because of > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I bought > all > this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was not going to start > the semester in a position to fail. > > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts if ordered > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr in > Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would be the > Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the AZ doctors will > not. They also said they will pay for a low vision exam here in AZ above > what Medicare covers. So why they will nto pay for a doctor who specializes > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton > > wrote: > >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I >> > could. >> > If >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you >> > may be able to speed things up. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> Shelton >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what >> > you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to >> > even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying >> > attention to. >> > >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to >> > me like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the >> > next person up is probably the one you have to go to. >> > >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. >> >> Failing >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >> Suzanne Germano >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in state >> >> but the instate service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way >> >> to deal with people who are clearly not even reading what you send >> >> them. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Suzanne: >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you >> >>> want out of this >> >> message. >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >> >>> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly known >> >>> for speedy resolution of problems. >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a >> >>> state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you >> >>> take that route and explain the situation and the due date to them. >> >>> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, >> >>> but going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to >> >>> work with. >> >>> HTH, >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On >> >>>> April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her >> >>>> supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor >> >>>> sends me a letter which clearly shows he never read the appeal >> >>>> documentation and asked if I was agreeable to the conditions of >> >>>> the letter or if I wanted ot >> >> continue with mediation. >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly >> >>>> does not even understand the request I had to fax him today >> >>>> saying No I do not agree and still want mediation. I think it was >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. >> >>>> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do >> >>>> makes sense. >> >>>> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not >> >>>> read my original request or my appeal with supporting >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" >> >>>> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >> >>>> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot >> >>>> provide the service I requested. >> >>>> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light >> >>>> sensitivity. >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them >> >>>> prescribed by >> >> Dr >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until >> >> January >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly >> >>>> outside >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I >> >>>> decided >> >>>> to >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >> >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >> >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright >> >>>> as many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I > have. >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After >> >>>> much research I have found many achromats go with a lighter >> >>>> filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already >> >>>> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, >> >>>> through my low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I >> >>>> paid $400 for the contacts in addition to the exam just to find >> >>>> out that even this level is not right for reading. >> >>>> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >> >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates >> >>>> in >> >> Indianapolis. >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and percent >> >>>> color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in >> >>>> which I try on contact lenses of several colors and darkness and >> >>>> see how they work for reading , and how they work outside with my > script sunglasses. >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." >> >>>> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors >> >>>> and how they determine color. None of them did anything similar >> >>>> to Eye >> >> Associates. >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic >> >>>> in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just >> >> determining color. >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> So frustrating... >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>>> bnet >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Take care, >> >>> Ty >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >> >>> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a >> >>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 >> >>> 0asu >> >>> .edu> >>> 40as >> >>> u.edu> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmai >> > l.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kaiti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> > .com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 19:11:12 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:11:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be emailing or calling him. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab > services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if > the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have > grounds for a lawsuit. > > I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. > They would know the system much better than any of us and would be > able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what you > have to do to make sure your needs are met. > > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > > Go as high as you have to go. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > > Germano > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > > > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a clear > > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal with 12 > > supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request and follow up > > letter > > were very clear on what I needed and why. > > > > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I already > > paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid for red contacts > > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school started. I > tried > > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they are still > > not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for the approval > > process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that I only need because > of > > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I bought > > all > > this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was not going to start > > the semester in a position to fail. > > > > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts if > ordered > > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr in > > Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would be the > > Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the AZ doctors will > > not. They also said they will pay for a low vision exam here in AZ above > > what Medicare covers. So why they will nto pay for a doctor who > specializes > > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton > > >> wrote: > > > >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak > >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > >> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I > >> > could. > >> > If > >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you > >> > may be able to speed things up. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > >> Shelton > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> > > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what > >> > you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to > >> > even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying > >> > attention to. > >> > > >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to > >> > me like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the > >> > next person up is probably the one you have to go to. > >> > > >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. > >> >> Failing > >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it > >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> >> Suzanne Germano > >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> >> > >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting > >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in state > >> >> but the instate service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way > >> >> to deal with people who are clearly not even reading what you send > >> >> them. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Suzanne: > >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a > >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you > >> >>> want out of this > >> >> message. > >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > >> >>> > >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do > >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend > >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly known > >> >>> for speedy resolution of problems. > >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a > >> >>> state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you > >> >>> take that route and explain the situation and the due date to them. > >> >>> > >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, > >> >>> but going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to > >> >>> work with. > >> >>> HTH, > >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On > >> >>>> April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her > >> >>>> supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor > >> >>>> sends me a letter which clearly shows he never read the appeal > >> >>>> documentation and asked if I was agreeable to the conditions of > >> >>>> the letter or if I wanted ot > >> >> continue with mediation. > >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly > >> >>>> does not even understand the request I had to fax him today > >> >>>> saying No I do not agree and still want mediation. I think it was > >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become > >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do > >> >>>> makes sense. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not > >> >>>> read my original request or my appeal with supporting > >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" > >> >>>> > >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >> >>>> > >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based > >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot > >> >>>> provide the service I requested. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light > >> >>>> sensitivity. > >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them > >> >>>> prescribed by > >> >> Dr > >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. Until > >> >> January > >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly > >> >>>> outside > >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I > >> >>>> decided > >> >>>> to > >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to > >> >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too > >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of > >> >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright > >> >>>> as many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It > >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I > > have. > >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After > >> >>>> much research I have found many achromats go with a lighter > >> >>>> filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already > >> >>>> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, > >> >>>> through my low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I > >> >>>> paid $400 for the contacts in addition to the exam just to find > >> >>>> out that even this level is not right for reading. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low > >> >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates > >> >>>> in > >> >> Indianapolis. > >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and > >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and percent > >> >>>> color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in > >> >>>> which I try on contact lenses of several colors and darkness and > >> >>>> see how they work for reading , and how they work outside with my > > script sunglasses. > >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in > >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors > >> >>>> and how they determine color. None of them did anything similar > >> >>>> to Eye > >> >> Associates. > >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic > >> >>>> in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just > >> >> determining color. > >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. > >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> So frustrating... > >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbnet. > >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>> for > >> >>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >>>> bnet > >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Take care, > >> >>> Ty > >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net > >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > >> >>> > >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a > >> >>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>> for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 > >> >>> 0asu > >> >>> .edu >> >>> 40as > >> >>> u.edu> > >> >>> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> 0gmail > >> >> .com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> 40gmai > >> > l.com > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Kaiti > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> 0gmail > >> > .com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> 40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:10:28 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:10:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info from Bob; I don't have it anymore. Arielle On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be emailing or > calling him. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton > > wrote: > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have >> grounds for a lawsuit. >> >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would be >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what you >> have to do to make sure your needs are met. >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> > Go as high as you have to go. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> > Germano >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a clear >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal with 12 >> > supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request and follow up >> > letter >> > were very clear on what I needed and why. >> > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I >> > already >> > paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid for red >> > contacts >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school started. I >> tried >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they are >> > still >> > not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for the approval >> > process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that I only need because >> of >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I >> > bought >> > all >> > this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was not going to >> > start >> > the semester in a position to fail. >> > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts if >> ordered >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr in >> > Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would be the >> > Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the AZ doctors >> > will >> > not. They also said they will pay for a low vision exam here in AZ >> > above >> > what Medicare covers. So why they will nto pay for a doctor who >> specializes >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. >> >> >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I >> >> > could. >> >> > If >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you >> >> > may be able to speed things up. >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >> >> Shelton >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> >> > >> >> > Hi, >> >> > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what >> >> > you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to >> >> > even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying >> >> > attention to. >> >> > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to >> >> > me like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the >> >> > next person up is probably the one you have to go to. >> >> > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves unresponsive. >> >> >> Failing >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work it >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >> >> Suzanne Germano >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> >> >> >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in state >> >> >> but the instate service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way >> >> >> to deal with people who are clearly not even reading what you send >> >> >> them. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Suzanne: >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you >> >> >>> want out of this >> >> >> message. >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always do >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they tend >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly known >> >> >>> for speedy resolution of problems. >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a >> >> >>> state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you >> >> >>> take that route and explain the situation and the due date to >> >> >>> them. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, >> >> >>> but going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier to >> >> >>> work with. >> >> >>> HTH, >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On >> >> >>>> April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her >> >> >>>> supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor >> >> >>>> sends me a letter which clearly shows he never read the appeal >> >> >>>> documentation and asked if I was agreeable to the conditions of >> >> >>>> the letter or if I wanted ot >> >> >> continue with mediation. >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly >> >> >>>> does not even understand the request I had to fax him today >> >> >>>> saying No I do not agree and still want mediation. I think it was >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us become >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do >> >> >>>> makes sense. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not >> >> >>>> read my original request or my appeal with supporting >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 based >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light >> >> >>>> sensitivity. >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them >> >> >>>> prescribed by >> >> >> Dr >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. >> >> >>>> Until >> >> >> January >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly >> >> >>>> outside >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I >> >> >>>> decided >> >> >>>> to >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to >> >> >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are too >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of >> >> >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright >> >> >>>> as many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. It >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds I >> > have. >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After >> >> >>>> much research I have found many achromats go with a lighter >> >> >>>> filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already >> >> >>>> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, >> >> >>>> through my low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I >> >> >>>> paid $400 for the contacts in addition to the exam just to find >> >> >>>> out that even this level is not right for reading. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low >> >> >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates >> >> >>>> in >> >> >> Indianapolis. >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and percent >> >> >>>> color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in >> >> >>>> which I try on contact lenses of several colors and darkness and >> >> >>>> see how they work for reading , and how they work outside with my >> > script sunglasses. >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors >> >> >>>> and how they determine color. None of them did anything similar >> >> >>>> to Eye >> >> >> Associates. >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic >> >> >>>> in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours just >> >> >> determining color. >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the other. >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> So frustrating... >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >> http://nfbnet. >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >>>> for >> >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com> >> >>>> bnet >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> Take care, >> >> >>> Ty >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >> >> >>> >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a >> >> >>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >>> for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 >> >> >>> 0asu >> >> >>> .edu> >> >>> 40as >> >> >>> u.edu> >> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> 0gmail >> >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> >> 40gmai >> >> > l.com >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Kaiti >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> 0gmail >> >> > .com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> >> 40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kaiti >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> > .com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 21:37:58 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:37:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they decided to approve it. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for > training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is > but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor > decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info from > Bob; I don't have it anymore. > Arielle > > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be emailing > or > > calling him. > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton > > >> wrote: > > > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab > >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if > >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have > >> grounds for a lawsuit. > >> > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would be > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what you > >> have to do to make sure your needs are met. > >> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > Go as high as you have to go. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > >> > Germano > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> > > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a > clear > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal with 12 > >> > supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request and follow up > >> > letter > >> > were very clear on what I needed and why. > >> > > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I > >> > already > >> > paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid for red > >> > contacts > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school started. I > >> tried > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they are > >> > still > >> > not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for the approval > >> > process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that I only need > because > >> of > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I > >> > bought > >> > all > >> > this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was not going to > >> > start > >> > the semester in a position to fail. > >> > > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts if > >> ordered > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr in > >> > Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would be the > >> > Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the AZ doctors > >> > will > >> > not. They also said they will pay for a low vision exam here in AZ > >> > above > >> > what Medicare covers. So why they will nto pay for a doctor who > >> specializes > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > >> >> > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone if I > >> >> > could. > >> >> > If > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, you > >> >> > may be able to speed things up. > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > >> >> Shelton > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi, > >> >> > > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read what > >> >> > you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not going to > >> >> > even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're not paying > >> >> > attention to. > >> >> > > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It looks to > >> >> > me like you have tried the councelor, tried the superviser, so the > >> >> > next person up is probably the one you have to go to. > >> >> > > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves > unresponsive. > >> >> >> Failing > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to work > it > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting > >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in state > >> >> >> but the instate service clearly would not meet the needs. Best way > >> >> >> to deal with people who are clearly not even reading what you send > >> >> >> them. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> Suzanne: > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a > >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what you > >> >> >>> want out of this > >> >> >> message. > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't always > do > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, they > tend > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly known > >> >> >>> for speedy resolution of problems. > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is usually a > >> >> >>> state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). I recommend you > >> >> >>> take that route and explain the situation and the due date to > >> >> >>> them. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your frustration, > >> >> >>> but going higher up you'll get a lot more help if you're easier > to > >> >> >>> work with. > >> >> >>> HTH, > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested mediation. On > >> >> >>>> April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire if she and her > >> >> >>>> supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April 12th her supervisor > >> >> >>>> sends me a letter which clearly shows he never read the appeal > >> >> >>>> documentation and asked if I was agreeable to the conditions of > >> >> >>>> the letter or if I wanted ot > >> >> >> continue with mediation. > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he clearly > >> >> >>>> does not even understand the request I had to fax him today > >> >> >>>> saying No I do not agree and still want mediation. I think it > was > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us > become > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they do > >> >> >>>> makes sense. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did not > >> >> >>>> read my original request or my appeal with supporting > >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 > based > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light > >> >> >>>> sensitivity. > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them > >> >> >>>> prescribed by > >> >> >> Dr > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. > >> >> >>>> Until > >> >> >> January > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for mainly > >> >> >>>> outside > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I > >> >> >>>> decided > >> >> >>>> to > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and returning to > >> >> >>>> work; my requirements have changed. The current contacts are > too > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day of > >> >> >>>> classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely bright > >> >> >>>> as many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. > It > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the reds > I > >> > have. > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. After > >> >> >>>> much research I have found many achromats go with a lighter > >> >> >>>> filter or even a different color browns, magentas etc. I already > >> >> >>>> tried reducing the color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, > >> >> >>>> through my low vision specialist who provides the contacts. I > >> >> >>>> paid $400 for the contacts in addition to the exam just to find > >> >> >>>> out that even this level is not right for reading. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized low > >> >> >>>> vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye Associates > >> >> >>>> in > >> >> >> Indianapolis. > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and percent > >> >> >>>> color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours appointment in > >> >> >>>> which I try on contact lenses of several colors and darkness and > >> >> >>>> see how they work for reading , and how they work outside with > my > >> > script sunglasses. > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in > >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted vendors > >> >> >>>> and how they determine color. None of them did anything similar > >> >> >>>> to Eye > >> >> >> Associates. > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision clinic > >> >> >>>> in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend 4-5 hours > just > >> >> >> determining color. > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the > other. > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > >> http://nfbnet. > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > >> >> >>>> for > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf > >> >> >>>> bnet > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- > >> >> >>> Take care, > >> >> >>> Ty > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net > >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a > >> >> >>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbn > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> >>> for > >> >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 > >> >> >>> 0asu > >> >> >>> .edu< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% > >> >> >>> 40as > >> >> >>> u.edu> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> >> 0gmail > >> >> >> .com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> >> 40gmai > >> >> > l.com > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Kaiti > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> > for > >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> >> 0gmail > >> >> > .com > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >> > for > >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> >> 40gmail.com > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Kaiti > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> > .com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From amieelsabo at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:46:25 2013 From: amieelsabo at gmail.com (Amy Sabo) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:46:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] reading protective attachments from ms office applications Message-ID: <005a01ce3c7e$2e181880$8a484980$@gmail.com> Hello all, I hope that you all are doing well. I have a problem and, maybe someone can help me out on this. When I get attachments I save them into my documents folder and, then I go to open them but, they are protected. I have tried to unprotect them but, I cannot do it. So, I was wondering if there was a way on how I can unprotect these files and, read them with using jfw? Thanks, amy From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:55:04 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:55:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for someone to tutor newly blind teen in chemistry and SAT prep Message-ID: Hi all, This was forwarded to me by a cyber-acquaintance. I'm going to respond to the person directly to ensure she knows about the NFB and about funding sources for assistive tech and training, but I am wondering if any of you are qualified and might be willing to mentor this young woman and help tutor her in chemistry and/or help her prep for the SAT's? It would be great for her to work with a blind mentor even if it is long-distance. I would do it but it has been too long since I've taken the SAT's and my last chem course was in 2005. If you're qualified or know somebody who is, could you please get in touch with her by phone? Thanks! Hi all, There is a local 17 year old girl who is losing her eyesight. She is an excellent student and struggling to continue working hard in school so that she can go to college despite the fact that she is grappling with losing her eyesight. She needs to prepare for the SAT's and is also taking Chemistry this summer so she can lighten her school load for next year. The financial costs for her parents are becoming insurmountable given all the additional needs she has now. Do you tutor or know someone who tutors for the SAT's? We are looking for someone who might drastically reduce fees or donate SAT prep services. Also, need chemistry tutor for the summer. Also want to know about any computer assisted programs you may know about for the visually impaired and blind? Lastly, if you know any teenagers or young adults with whom she can talk and get support, that would be wonderful. Please let me know. Thanks so much! Prissi (310) 871-6440 From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:56:29 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:56:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for someone to tutor newly blind teen in chemistry and SAT prep In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ps--if you prefer you can also email this person who is requesting assistance at: prissi at taskilicious.com On 4/18/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > This was forwarded to me by a cyber-acquaintance. I'm going to respond > to the person directly to ensure she knows about the NFB and about > funding sources for assistive tech and training, but I am wondering if > any of you are qualified and might be willing to mentor this young > woman and help tutor her in chemistry and/or help her prep for the > SAT's? It would be great for her to work with a blind mentor even if > it is long-distance. I would do it but it has been too long since I've > taken the SAT's and my last chem course was in 2005. If you're > qualified or know somebody who is, could you please get in touch with > her by phone? Thanks! > > Hi all, > > There is a local 17 year old girl who is losing her eyesight. She is > an excellent student and struggling to continue working hard in school > so that she can go to college despite the fact that she is grappling > with losing her eyesight. > > She needs to prepare for the SAT's and is also taking Chemistry this > summer so she can lighten her school load for next year. The financial > costs for her parents are becoming insurmountable given all the > additional needs she has now. > > Do you tutor or know someone who tutors for the SAT's? We are looking > for someone who might drastically reduce fees or donate SAT prep > services. Also, need chemistry tutor for the summer. > > Also want to know about any computer assisted programs you may know > about for the visually impaired and blind? Lastly, if you know any > teenagers or young adults with whom she can talk and get support, that > would be wonderful. > > Please let me know. Thanks so much! > > Prissi > (310) 871-6440 > From samnelson1 at verizon.net Thu Apr 18 22:10:51 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:10:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading protective attachments from ms office applications In-Reply-To: <005a01ce3c7e$2e181880$8a484980$@gmail.com> References: <005a01ce3c7e$2e181880$8a484980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701ce3c81$97c10460$c7430d20$@verizon.net> Hi Amy, Nice to meet you, I'm new to the list. When I open an attachment it won't read either and says it's in protected mode, you have to go to the file menu and hit save. It'll say something like,"do you wish to inable saving" or something like that. Just say yes and save it and it should work. It's an MS 2010 thing, I really don't understand why it's set up that way. I hope this helps. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amy Sabo Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:46 PM To: NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS Subject: [nabs-l] reading protective attachments from ms office applications Hello all, I hope that you all are doing well. I have a problem and, maybe someone can help me out on this. When I get attachments I save them into my documents folder and, then I go to open them but, they are protected. I have tried to unprotect them but, I cannot do it. So, I was wondering if there was a way on how I can unprotect these files and, read them with using jfw? Thanks, amy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 22:15:42 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:15:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible survey creation services? In-Reply-To: <357D5BD0-486C-4185-AA7B-BD68094C524C@gmail.com> References: <357D5BD0-486C-4185-AA7B-BD68094C524C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Hope, I would suggest Survey Monkey (www.surveymonkey.com). I believe that the service is free if your survey contains fewer than 10 questions. Hope this helps! Katie On 4/17/13, Hope Paulos wrote: > Hi Al! I need to create an online survey for one of my classes. Can you tell > me what is an Accessible survey creation service? Preferably free? > Thanks! > Hope > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From samnelson1 at verizon.net Thu Apr 18 22:16:34 2013 From: samnelson1 at verizon.net (Sam Nelson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:16:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> Hi Suzanne, Voc rehab can be so strange! Congratulations on getting it aprooved though! Maybe they realized you weren't going away until this got settled and they wanted to just get you out of their hair. It's sad that that's the kind of relationship we have to have with these people a lot of the time. But good you got what you needed. That must be a relief! Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they decided to approve it. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for > training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is > but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor > decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info from > Bob; I don't have it anymore. > Arielle > > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be > > emailing > or > > calling him. > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton > > >> wrote: > > > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab > >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if > >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have > >> grounds for a lawsuit. > >> > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would be > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what > >> you have to do to make sure your needs are met. > >> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > Go as high as you have to go. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> > Suzanne Germano > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> > > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a > clear > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal > >> > with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request > >> > and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. > >> > > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I > >> > already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid > >> > for red contacts > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school > >> > started. I > >> tried > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they > >> > are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for > >> > the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that > >> > I only need > because > >> of > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I > >> > bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was > >> > not going to start the semester in a position to fail. > >> > > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts > >> > if > >> ordered > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr > >> > in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would > >> > be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the > >> > AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low > >> > vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they > >> > will nto pay for a doctor who > >> specializes > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > >> >> > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone > >> >> > if I could. > >> >> > If > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, > >> >> > you may be able to speed things up. > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> >> > Kaiti > >> >> Shelton > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi, > >> >> > > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read > >> >> > what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not > >> >> > going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're > >> >> > not paying attention to. > >> >> > > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It > >> >> > looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the > >> >> > superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you have to go to. > >> >> > > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves > unresponsive. > >> >> >> Failing > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to > >> >> >> work > it > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting > >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in > >> >> >> state but the instate service clearly would not meet the > >> >> >> needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not even > >> >> >> reading what you send them. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> Suzanne: > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a > >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what > >> >> >>> you want out of this > >> >> >> message. > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't > >> >> >>> always > do > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, > >> >> >>> they > tend > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly > >> >> >>> known for speedy resolution of problems. > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is > >> >> >>> usually a state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). > >> >> >>> I recommend you take that route and explain the situation > >> >> >>> and the due date to them. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your > >> >> >>> frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot more help > >> >> >>> if you're easier > to > >> >> >>> work with. > >> >> >>> HTH, > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire > >> >> >>>> if she and her supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April > >> >> >>>> 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly shows > >> >> >>>> he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was > >> >> >>>> agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot > >> >> >> continue with mediation. > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he > >> >> >>>> clearly does not even understand the request I had to fax > >> >> >>>> him today saying No I do not agree and still want > >> >> >>>> mediation. I think it > was > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us > become > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they > >> >> >>>> do makes sense. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did > >> >> >>>> not read my original request or my appeal with supporting > >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 > based > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light > >> >> >>>> sensitivity. > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them > >> >> >>>> prescribed by > >> >> >> Dr > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. > >> >> >>>> Until > >> >> >> January > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for > >> >> >>>> mainly outside > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since I > >> >> >>>> decided > >> >> >>>> to > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and > >> >> >>>> returning to work; my requirements have changed. The > >> >> >>>> current contacts are > too > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day > >> >> >>>> of classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely > >> >> >>>> bright as many dim the lights somewhat for power point presentations. > It > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the > >> >> >>>> reds > I > >> > have. > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. > >> >> >>>> After much research I have found many achromats go with a > >> >> >>>> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas > >> >> >>>> etc. I already tried reducing the color by 30%, from my > >> >> >>>> original red from 1995, through my low vision specialist > >> >> >>>> who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in > >> >> >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is not right for reading. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized > >> >> >>>> low vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye > >> >> >>>> Associates in > >> >> >> Indianapolis. > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and > >> >> >>>> percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours > >> >> >>>> appointment in which I try on contact lenses of several > >> >> >>>> colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and > >> >> >>>> how they work outside with > my > >> > script sunglasses. > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in > >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted > >> >> >>>> vendors and how they determine color. None of them did > >> >> >>>> anything similar to Eye > >> >> >> Associates. > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision > >> >> >>>> clinic in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend > >> >> >>>> 4-5 hours > just > >> >> >> determining color. > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the > other. > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > >> http://nfbnet. > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >> >> >>>> account > info > >> >> >>>> for > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf > >> >> >>>> bnet > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- > >> >> >>> Take care, > >> >> >>> Ty > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net > >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is > >> >> >>> a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > http://nfbn > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >> >>> info for > >> >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 > >> >> >>> 0asu > >> >> >>> .edu< > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% > >> >> >>> 40as > >> >> >>> u.edu> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >> >> info for > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> >> 0gmail > >> >> >> .com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >> >> info for > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> >> 40gmai > >> >> > l.com > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Kaiti > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >> > info for > >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> >> 0gmail > >> >> > .com > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >> > info for > >> >> > nabs-l: > >> >> > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> >> 40gmail.com > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Kaiti > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >> info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > >> > .com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > >> edu > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 22:21:53 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:21:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindmath] Looking for someone to tutor newly blind teen inchemistry and SAT prep In-Reply-To: <6B8BE87EE67BDB44B8A6F0A8154437E40D8369@WINSRVEX10.aph.org> References: <6B8BE87EE67BDB44B8A6F0A8154437E40D8369@WINSRVEX10.aph.org> Message-ID: I don't know yet but the area code is 310 which makes me suspect it is Los Angeles area in CA. Arielle On 4/18/13, Debbie Willis wrote: > Do you know what city/state this young lady lives in? > > Thank you, > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 5:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFBnet Blind Kid > Mailing List,(for parents of blind children); blindmath at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Looking for someone to tutor newly blind teen > inchemistry and SAT prep > > Ps--if you prefer you can also email this person who is requesting > assistance at: > prissi at taskilicious.com > > On 4/18/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> This was forwarded to me by a cyber-acquaintance. I'm going to respond >> to the person directly to ensure she knows about the NFB and about >> funding sources for assistive tech and training, but I am wondering if >> any of you are qualified and might be willing to mentor this young >> woman and help tutor her in chemistry and/or help her prep for the >> SAT's? It would be great for her to work with a blind mentor even if >> it is long-distance. I would do it but it has been too long since I've >> taken the SAT's and my last chem course was in 2005. If you're >> qualified or know somebody who is, could you please get in touch with >> her by phone? Thanks! >> >> Hi all, >> >> There is a local 17 year old girl who is losing her eyesight. She is >> an excellent student and struggling to continue working hard in school >> so that she can go to college despite the fact that she is grappling >> with losing her eyesight. >> >> She needs to prepare for the SAT's and is also taking Chemistry this >> summer so she can lighten her school load for next year. The financial >> costs for her parents are becoming insurmountable given all the >> additional needs she has now. >> >> Do you tutor or know someone who tutors for the SAT's? We are looking >> for someone who might drastically reduce fees or donate SAT prep >> services. Also, need chemistry tutor for the summer. >> >> Also want to know about any computer assisted programs you may know >> about for the visually impaired and blind? Lastly, if you know any >> teenagers or young adults with whom she can talk and get support, that >> would be wonderful. >> >> Please let me know. Thanks so much! >> >> Prissi >> (310) 871-6440 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Blindmath mailing list > Blindmath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Blindmath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/dwillis%40aph.org > > _______________________________________________ > Blindmath mailing list > Blindmath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Blindmath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 22:28:41 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:28:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] reading protective attachments from ms office applications In-Reply-To: <000701ce3c81$97c10460$c7430d20$@verizon.net> References: <005a01ce3c7e$2e181880$8a484980$@gmail.com> <000701ce3c81$97c10460$c7430d20$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi, Sam, Amy, and all, You are right that this is a MS Office 2010 issue and can be quite annoying. One quick fix someone has suggested on this list is copying and pasting all the text from the attachment you are trying to view into a blank Word document. A more permanent solution involves a few more steps. In MS Word, press Alt f and select Options. Arrow down to Trust Center, then press Tab a few times to get to the Trust Center Setttings button and press Enter. In the Category combo box, select Protected View, then press Tab to make sure that Protected View is turned off for both email attachments and files originated from the Internet. Press OK a few times until you exit all of the dialog boxes. You only need to do this once - Attachments will no longer open in Protected View after you change this setting. Hope this helps and let me know if anything I said is unclear! Katie On 4/18/13, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Amy, > Nice to meet you, I'm new to the list. > When I open an attachment it won't read either and says it's in > protected mode, you have to go to the file menu and hit save. It'll say > something like,"do you wish to inable saving" or something like that. Just > say yes and save it and it should work. It's an MS 2010 thing, I really > don't understand why it's set up that way. > I hope this helps. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amy Sabo > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:46 PM > To: NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS > Subject: [nabs-l] reading protective attachments from ms office > applications > > Hello all, > > I hope that you all are doing well. I have a problem and, maybe someone can > help me out on this. When I get attachments I save them into my documents > folder and, then I go to open them but, they are protected. I have tried to > unprotect them but, I cannot do it. > > So, I was wondering if there was a way on how I can unprotect these files > and, read them with using jfw? > > > Thanks, > amy > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 18 22:29:01 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:29:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> Message-ID: It is a relief thank you. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Suzanne, > Voc rehab can be so strange! Congratulations on getting it aprooved > though! Maybe they realized you weren't going away until this got settled > and they wanted to just get you out of their hair. It's sad that that's the > kind of relationship we have to have with these people a lot of the time. > But good you got what you needed. That must be a relief! > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they decided to > approve it. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > > > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for > > training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is > > but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor > > decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info from > > Bob; I don't have it anymore. > > Arielle > > > > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be > > > emailing > > or > > > calling him. > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab > > >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if > > >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have > > >> grounds for a lawsuit. > > >> > > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. > > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would be > > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what > > >> you have to do to make sure your needs are met. > > >> > > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > > >> > Go as high as you have to go. > > >> > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > > >> > Suzanne Germano > > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM > > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > >> > > > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a > > clear > > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal > > >> > with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request > > >> > and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. > > >> > > > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I > > >> > already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid > > >> > for red contacts > > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school > > >> > started. I > > >> tried > > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they > > >> > are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for > > >> > the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that > > >> > I only need > > because > > >> of > > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I > > >> > bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was > > >> > not going to start the semester in a position to fail. > > >> > > > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts > > >> > if > > >> ordered > > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr > > >> > in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would > > >> > be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the > > >> > AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low > > >> > vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they > > >> > will nto pay for a doctor who > > >> specializes > > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton > > >> > > >> >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak > > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > > >> >> > > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone > > >> >> > if I could. > > >> >> > If > > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, > > >> >> > you may be able to speed things up. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > > >> >> > Kaiti > > >> >> Shelton > > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Hi, > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read > > >> >> > what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not > > >> >> > going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're > > >> >> > not paying attention to. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It > > >> >> > looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the > > >> >> > superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you have to > go to. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves > > unresponsive. > > >> >> >> Failing > > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to > > >> >> >> work > > it > > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano > > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting > > >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in > > >> >> >> state but the instate service clearly would not meet the > > >> >> >> needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not even > > >> >> >> reading what you send them. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > > >> >> >> wrote: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>> Suzanne: > > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a > > >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what > > >> >> >>> you want out of this > > >> >> >> message. > > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't > > >> >> >>> always > > do > > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, > > >> >> >>> they > > tend > > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly > > >> >> >>> known for speedy resolution of problems. > > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is > > >> >> >>> usually a state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). > > >> >> >>> I recommend you take that route and explain the situation > > >> >> >>> and the due date to them. > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your > > >> >> >>> frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot more help > > >> >> >>> if you're easier > > to > > >> >> >>> work with. > > >> >> >>> HTH, > > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested > > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire > > >> >> >>>> if she and her supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April > > >> >> >>>> 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly shows > > >> >> >>>> he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was > > >> >> >>>> agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot > > >> >> >> continue with mediation. > > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he > > >> >> >>>> clearly does not even understand the request I had to fax > > >> >> >>>> him today saying No I do not agree and still want > > >> >> >>>> mediation. I think it > > was > > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us > > become > > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they > > >> >> >>>> do makes sense. > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did > > >> >> >>>> not read my original request or my appeal with supporting > > >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you did" > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 > > based > > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot > > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light > > >> >> >>>> sensitivity. > > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them > > >> >> >>>> prescribed by > > >> >> >> Dr > > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. > > >> >> >>>> Until > > >> >> >> January > > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for > > >> >> >>>> mainly outside > > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, since > I > > >> >> >>>> decided > > >> >> >>>> to > > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and > > >> >> >>>> returning to work; my requirements have changed. The > > >> >> >>>> current contacts are > > too > > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day > > >> >> >>>> of classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely > > >> >> >>>> bright as many dim the lights somewhat for power point > presentations. > > It > > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the > > >> >> >>>> reds > > I > > >> > have. > > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. > > >> >> >>>> After much research I have found many achromats go with a > > >> >> >>>> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas > > >> >> >>>> etc. I already tried reducing the color by 30%, from my > > >> >> >>>> original red from 1995, through my low vision specialist > > >> >> >>>> who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in > > >> >> >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level is > not right for reading. > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized > > >> >> >>>> low vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye > > >> >> >>>> Associates in > > >> >> >> Indianapolis. > > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and > > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and > > >> >> >>>> percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours > > >> >> >>>> appointment in which I try on contact lenses of several > > >> >> >>>> colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and > > >> >> >>>> how they work outside with > > my > > >> > script sunglasses. > > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in > > >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted > > >> >> >>>> vendors and how they determine color. None of them did > > >> >> >>>> anything similar to Eye > > >> >> >> Associates. > > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision > > >> >> >>>> clinic in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend > > >> >> >>>> 4-5 hours > > just > > >> >> >> determining color. > > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the > > other. > > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... > > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > > >> http://nfbnet. > > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > > >> >> >>>> account > > info > > >> >> >>>> for > > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: > > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > > >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com< > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf > > >> >> >>>> bnet > > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > > >> >> >>>> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> -- > > >> >> >>> Take care, > > >> >> >>> Ty > > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net > > >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is > > >> >> >>> a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > > http://nfbn > > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > >> >> >>> info for > > >> >> >>> nabs-l: > > >> >> >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 > > >> >> >>> 0asu > > >> >> >>> .edu< > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% > > >> >> >>> 40as > > >> >> >>> u.edu> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > >> >> >> info for > > >> >> >> nabs-l: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > >> >> 0gmail > > >> >> >> .com > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > >> >> >> info for > > >> >> >> nabs-l: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > > >> >> 40gmai > > >> >> > l.com > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > -- > > >> >> > Kaiti > > >> >> > > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > >> >> > info for > > >> >> > nabs-l: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > >> >> 0gmail > > >> >> > .com > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > >> >> > info for > > >> >> > nabs-l: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > > >> >> 40gmail.com > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> -- > > >> >> Kaiti > > >> >> > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > >> >> info for > > >> >> nabs-l: > > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > > >> >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > nabs-l mailing list > > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >> > for > > >> > nabs-l: > > >> > > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > 0gmail > > >> > .com > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > nabs-l mailing list > > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >> > for > > >> > nabs-l: > > >> > > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > > 40gmail.com > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Kaiti > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > >> for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > > >> edu > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > > com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 01:56:01 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:56:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program In-Reply-To: References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> <8D00A60EE3505AD-192C-9397@webmail-d266.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think you could make arrangements with the CCB to do the independence training part and not the academic part. I agree that college prep might not be necessary in your case, and forgoing that part of the program will give you more time to work on O&M, tech and home management. I think that a summer is enough time to get enough confidence that you can continue to build the skills on your own. Arielle On 4/18/13, Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer wrote: > Good morning Miso, I am attending the very same program, and really like the > > Colorado Center and their staff. I have attended both the mid school and > high school programs before and have refered many friends to CCB. > > > > Sent from my Acer Aspire As5733 > -----Original Message----- > From: Miso Kwak > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:31 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program > > I have previously discussed this matter and am aware that Colorado > Center staff are on the list. > Before I start writing letter of justification to California Department > of Rehab I would like to hear from people who participated in the > program. > The program I aim to attend is Summer for Success College-Prep program. > If you have participated in this program please share your experience > with me either on or off list. > What I would like to achieve the most over the summer before I start > college are the following: > Improvement in orientation and mobility skills > Using JAWS (I use a Korean made screen reader; only know the basics of > JAWS) > Improvement in home management skills (cooking, cleaning, etc) > I know that the college prep program's curriculum includes academic > aspects of college and how to access the disabilities services. > This could vary from person to person, but generally, would learning > such things be helpful and worth the time? > Knowing myself this summer might be the only time I attend such > training programs. > While I am afraid of supposedly rigorous college academics, I am not > 100% sure if attending a program that includes academic help in a way > would substantially benefit me. > I know for a fact, I need to improve on O&M and home management and > obtaining training in those areas will benefit me for a long time. > However, I am not willing to spend a year training on those skills. The > summer might not be enough but I will do my best to learn and maintain > the skills afterwards especially now. > Based on what you have read so far, would you suggest any program other > than CCB's summer success for college program? > Based on your experience, what would you do differently? What advice > would you give me? > Miso Kwak > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 02:06:24 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:06:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program In-Reply-To: References: <004901ce3973$2f6df280$8e49d780$@gmail.com> <8D00A60EE3505AD-192C-9397@webmail-d266.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001b01ce3bd9$549d2590$fdd770b0$@gmail.com> You can taylor the program with them to fit what you need.-----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program I think you could make arrangements with the CCB to do the independence training part and not the academic part. I agree that college prep might not be necessary in your case, and forgoing that part of the program will give you more time to work on O&M, tech and home management. I think that a summer is enough time to get enough confidence that you can continue to build the skills on your own. Arielle On 4/18/13, Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer wrote: > Good morning Miso, I am attending the very same program, and really > like the > > Colorado Center and their staff. I have attended both the mid school > and high school programs before and have refered many friends to CCB. > > > > Sent from my Acer Aspire As5733 > -----Original Message----- > From: Miso Kwak > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:31 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Choosing an Appropriate Summer Training Program > > I have previously discussed this matter and am aware that Colorado > Center staff are on the list. > Before I start writing letter of justification to California > Department of Rehab I would like to hear from people who participated > in the program. > The program I aim to attend is Summer for Success College-Prep program. > If you have participated in this program please share your experience > with me either on or off list. > What I would like to achieve the most over the summer before I start > college are the following: > Improvement in orientation and mobility skills Using JAWS (I use a > Korean made screen reader; only know the basics of > JAWS) > Improvement in home management skills (cooking, cleaning, etc) I know > that the college prep program's curriculum includes academic aspects > of college and how to access the disabilities services. > This could vary from person to person, but generally, would learning > such things be helpful and worth the time? > Knowing myself this summer might be the only time I attend such > training programs. > While I am afraid of supposedly rigorous college academics, I am not > 100% sure if attending a program that includes academic help in a way > would substantially benefit me. > I know for a fact, I need to improve on O&M and home management and > obtaining training in those areas will benefit me for a long time. > However, I am not willing to spend a year training on those skills. > The summer might not be enough but I will do my best to learn and > maintain the skills afterwards especially now. > Based on what you have read so far, would you suggest any program > other than CCB's summer success for college program? > Based on your experience, what would you do differently? What advice > would you give me? > Miso Kwak > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dandrews at visi.com Fri Apr 19 02:12:20 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:12:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: It varies from agency to agency, in MN we sign equipment over to most customers, at the time they receive the equipment. This could be a long time before we close their case, like when they start college. We try to tread adults like adults. Dave At 10:03 PM 4/16/2013, you wrote: >I don't have a VR case anymore, but I think I heard that they do close >your case after 90 days of employment but they can sign equipment over >to you at that time. >Arielle > >On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Justin, > > > > Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national > > thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back > > to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne > > suggested? > > I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed > > they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully > > employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own > > equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a > > laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that > > 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine > > though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. > > > > On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > >> 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > >> Shelton > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > >> think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > >> other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > >> for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > >> They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > >> give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > >> to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > >> starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > >> happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > >> "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > >> you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > >> requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > >> It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > >> > >> On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google > >>> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and > >>> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase > >>> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of > >>> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think > >>> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, > >>> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied > >>> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending > >>> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor > >>> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> > >>>> I find myself agreeing with several points. > >>>> > >>>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into > >>>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not > >>>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working > >>>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different > >>>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this thing > >>>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price > >>>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this > >>>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could > >>>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, > >>>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely > >>>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. > >>>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or > >>>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station. > >>>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the > >>>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some consideration, > >>>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car > >>>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of > >>>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives > >>>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five > >>>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but > >>>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One person > >>>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the > >>>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to > >>>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight > >>>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and > >>>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other > >>>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the > >>>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day > >>>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, > >>>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less > >>>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was saying > >>>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars > >>>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, > >>>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already > >>>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. > >>>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top > >>>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a > >>>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some > >>>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which > >>>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these > >>>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between > >>>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could > >>>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the > >>>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you > >>>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you > >>>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our > >>>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping > >>>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation > >>>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the > >>>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the > >>>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of > >>>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and > >>>> negatives to consider. > >>>> > >>>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >>>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. > >>>>> Should > >>>>> you > >>>>> > >>>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB > >>>>> developed > >>>>> > >>>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo > >>>>> driver > >>>>> > >>>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal > >>>>> cab > >>>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver > >>>>> we > >>>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly > >>>>> whenever > >>>>> > >>>>> we need transportation. > >>>>> > >>>>> Peter Donahue > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" > >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment > >>>>> rate? > >>>>> > >>>>> Chris Nusbaum > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Just my own two sense: > >>>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a > >>>>>> car > >>>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. > >>>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for innovation; > >>>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. > >>>>>> If > >>>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as > >>>>>> whole > >>>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as > >>>>>> drivers. > >>>>>> I could just here the advertizement: > >>>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call > >>>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources > >>>>>> need > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> > >>>>>> be properly prioritized. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > >>>>>>> complex > >>>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an > >>>>>>> autonomous > >>>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough > >>>>>>> baggage > >>>>>>> as > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > >>>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. > >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist > >>>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > >>>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > >>>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > >>>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > >>>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > >>>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > >>>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > >>>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > >>>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > >>>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > >>>>>>> electricity? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Wow, Peter! > >>>>>>> Like minds huh? > >>>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > >>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua > >>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > >>>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > >>>>>>> technology > >>>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > >>>>>>> track at > >>>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > >>>>>>> ready been > >>>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > >>>>>>> have driven > >>>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > >>>>>>> unite and > >>>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > >>>>>>> else to > >>>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > >>>>>>> controllable by a > >>>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > >>>>>>> protected. We > >>>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > >>>>>>> initiative. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Peter Donahue > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Amen, Patrick! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee > >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>> Patrick Molloy > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > >>>>>>> with you. > >>>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > >>>>>>> to go, > >>>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > >>>>>>> in the NFB > >>>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > >>>>>>> the thing! > >>>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > >>>>>>> from the > >>>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially > >>>>>>> disappears. I'm not > >>>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > >>>>>>> myself with > >>>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > >>>>>>> and, with > >>>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > >>>>>>> If you want > >>>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > >>>>>>> more power to > >>>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > >>>>>>> that many > >>>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > >>>>>>> why blind > >>>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > >>>>>>> the potential > >>>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > >>>>>>> more or less > >>>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > >>>>>>> us blind > >>>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > >>>>>>> I decide > >>>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > >>>>>>> found it > >>>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > >>>>>>> that we as > >>>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > >>>>>>> in one way > >>>>>>> or another. > >>>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > >>>>>>> people > >>>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > >>>>>>> tired of > >>>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > >>>>>>> practice! If > >>>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > >>>>>>> should have > >>>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > >>>>>>> Separate is not > >>>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > >>>>>>> think it > >>>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > >>>>>>> to at > >>>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > >>>>>>> like our > >>>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > >>>>>>> self-serving, > >>>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > >>>>>>> can take a > >>>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > >>>>>>> bus if we > >>>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > >>>>>>> got time to > >>>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > >>>>>>> the same > >>>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > >>>>>>> people. > >>>>>>> Patrick > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > >>>>>>> seems > >>>>>>> like you > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > >>>>>>> buy > >>>>>>> one if > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> given a choice. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > >>>>>>> paratransit > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > >>>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > >>>>>>> and safe. > >>>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > >>>>>>> want > >>>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > >>>>>>> override the > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> car. > >>>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > >>>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > >>>>>>> front of > >>>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > >>>>>>> speed > >>>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> walk, rode rage, and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> drunk drivers. > >>>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > >>>>>>> override > >>>>>>> it when obstacles arise. > >>>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > >>>>>>> brakes due > >>>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > >>>>>>> unexpectedly > >>>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > >>>>>>> to, > >>>>>>> pedestrians who > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > >>>>>>> signal > >>>>>>> is on > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > >>>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. > >>>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > >>>>>>> eyes > >>>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > >>>>>>> upon > >>>>>>> unexpected hazards. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > >>>>>>> ahead and > >>>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > >>>>>>> just > >>>>>>> don't want to > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> be on the road with you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > >>>>>>> people, > >>>>>>> but we > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > >>>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > >>>>>>> buses I > >>>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > >>>>>>> need > >>>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > >>>>>>> to get > >>>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > >>>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of > >>>>>>> Dayton's bus > >>>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > >>>>>>> east-west, but > >>>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > >>>>>>> you if > >>>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > >>>>>>> roll > >>>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > >>>>>>> boomerang > >>>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > >>>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > >>>>>>> other > >>>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > >>>>>>> which > >>>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > >>>>>>> license, or > >>>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > >>>>>>> blind > >>>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > >>>>>>> self-serving > >>>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > >>>>>>> think not > >>>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > >>>>>>> than > >>>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > >>>>>>> can > >>>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > >>>>>>> would be > >>>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > >>>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > >>>>>>> the high > >>>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > >>>>>>> so why > >>>>>>> not do it? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >>>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > >>>>>>> self > >>>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > >>>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > >>>>>>> depending on > >>>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > >>>>>>> Here > >>>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > >>>>>>> FL > >>>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > >>>>>>> So > >>>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > >>>>>>> have > >>>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > >>>>>>> along > >>>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > >>>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > >>>>>>> I'm > >>>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > >>>>>>> allowfor > >>>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > >>>>>>> thus > >>>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > >>>>>>> non > >>>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > >>>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>>>>> t104 > >>>>>>> %40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Kaiti > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > >>>>>>> 0eart > >>>>>>> hlink.net > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > >>>>>>> 40gma > >>>>>>> il.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>>>>>> m%40gmail.c > >>>>>>> om > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > >>>>>>> atx.rr.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >>>>>>> 0pccua.edu > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >>>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > >> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > >> l.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kaiti > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > >> l.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com From dandrews at visi.com Fri Apr 19 02:14:19 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:14:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets In-Reply-To: References: <516c6b3f.c71dec0a.020e.ffffbbf5@mx.google.com> <-873387621288568264@unknownmsgid> <003301ce3aaa$e21436f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <002201ce3a45$763062c0$62912840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: As I said in another message, specific policies differ from state to state. Remember that you receive equipment to reach a goal in your plan for employment. If your employment requires some specific equipment, and rehab agrees to provide it, it wouldn't make sense to take it back and have you loose your job. Dave At 11:19 PM 4/16/2013, you wrote: >Yes, but a lot of what VR does doesn't make sense in that kind of way. > At the end of the day they're going to want to do what is most >cost-efficient for them, not necessarily what is best for the >"consumer." I'm not sure how the signing equipment over process >works, but unless you pay out of pocket for the equipment I could see >them wanting to take it back and deal with it in a way that could get >them reimbursement for other funds they have spent. > >On 4/17/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > But if you can't do your job without the equipment then you would no long > > have a job and can't save up to buy the equipment > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Kaiti Shelton > > wrote: > > > >> Justin, > >> > >> Did you look that up? I'm just curious to know if that's a national > >> thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back > >> to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne > >> suggested? > >> I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed > >> they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully > >> employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own > >> equipment. It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a > >> laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that > >> 90 day period to replace it. If you don't know all that it's fine > >> though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out. > >> > >> On 4/15/13, justin williams wrote: > >> > 90 days after employment and your case is closed. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti > >> Shelton > >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't > >> > think if given the choice I would go for it. I'm not sure about what > >> > other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements > >> > for everything they get you so you know that it's their property. > >> > They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and > >> > give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years > >> > to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a > >> > starting salary of 40,00 or less. I wouldn't like for something to > >> > happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say, > >> > "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since > >> > you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the > >> > requirements even though you've already met your employment goals." > >> > It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way. > >> > > >> > On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> >> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google > >> >> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and > >> >> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase > >> >> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of > >> >> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think > >> >> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it, > >> >> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied > >> >> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending > >> >> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor > >> >> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded. > >> >> Arielle > >> >> > >> >> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >> >>> Hi all, > >> >>> > >> >>> I find myself agreeing with several points. > >> >>> > >> >>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into > >> >>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not > >> >>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working > >> >>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different > >> >>> places at the same time. I agree with Kirt that even after this > >> >>> thing > >> >>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price > >> >>> is reasonable. Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this > >> >>> car is. Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could > >> >>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed. Say, > >> >>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely > >> >>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere. > >> >>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or > >> >>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas > >> >>> station. > >> >>> And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the > >> >>> car to resume the route? Just hypotheticals worth some > >> >>> consideration, > >> >>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical. Also, even if a car > >> >>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of > >> >>> driving around. Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives > >> >>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five > >> >>> miles to the south. I realize these are very small measurements, but > >> >>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it. One > >> >>> person > >> >>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the > >> >>> office and back. Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to > >> >>> drop the other person off. When the person who got to work by eight > >> >>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and > >> >>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other > >> >>> person and bring them home. That's 40 miles in a day. Now, say the > >> >>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day > >> >>> going back and forth to work. That's half the driving, half the gas, > >> >>> and although there are 2 cars on the road instead of one, less > >> >>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment. What I was > >> >>> saying > >> >>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars > >> >>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once, > >> >>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already > >> >>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it. > >> >>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top > >> >>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a > >> >>> negative thing. I agree with Chris that it will probably help some > >> >>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which > >> >>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable. I think both these > >> >>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between > >> >>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too. I could > >> >>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in > >> >>> the > >> >>> following: Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you > >> >>> once the other interviews are finished. One more question, can you > >> >>> drive one of those Google cars? We could really use someone in our > >> >>> area across town." Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet. I'm hoping > >> >>> to save up for one though." In this case, the employer's expectation > >> >>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the > >> >>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the > >> >>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of > >> >>> the job. I think there are a lot of complicated positives and > >> >>> negatives to consider. > >> >>> > >> >>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > >> >>>> Good morning Chris and everyone, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us. > >> >>>> Should > >> >>>> you > >> >>>> > >> >>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB > >> >>>> developed > >> >>>> > >> >>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our > >> >>>> limo > >> >>>> driver > >> >>>> > >> >>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our > >> >>>> personal > >> >>>> cab > >> >>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab > >> >>>> driver > >> >>>> we > >> >>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly > >> >>>> whenever > >> >>>> > >> >>>> we need transportation. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Peter Donahue > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" > >> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM > >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment > >> rate? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl > >> wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> Just my own two sense: > >> >>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a > >> >>>>> car > >> >>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it. > >> >>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream. I am all for > >> >>>>> innovation; > >> >>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more. > >> >>>>> If > >> >>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as > >> >>>>> whole > >> >>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as > >> >>>>> drivers. > >> >>>>> I could just here the advertizement: > >> >>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, > >> >>>>> call > >> >>>>> (800)lawyers. Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources > >> >>>>> need > >> >>>>> to > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> be properly prioritized. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Sent from my iPad > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist" < > >> sweetpeareader at gmail.com> > >> >>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other > >> >>>>>> complex > >> >>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an > >> >>>>>> autonomous > >> >>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough > >> baggage > >> >>>>>> as > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000 > >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago. > >> >>>>>> The car should be out by 2016. > >> >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >> >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist > >> >>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com] > >> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM > >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never > >> >>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard, > >> >>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've > >> >>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago. > >> >>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just > >> >>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more > >> >>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another > >> >>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution > >> >>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one > >> >>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or > >> >>>>>> electricity? > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>>>> From: Joshua Lester >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000 > >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Wow, Peter! > >> >>>>>> Like minds huh? > >> >>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago! > >> >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua > >> >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter > >> >>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com] > >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM > >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone, > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this > >> >>>>>> technology > >> >>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the > >> >>>>>> track at > >> >>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all > >> >>>>>> ready been > >> >>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals > >> >>>>>> have driven > >> >>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to > >> >>>>>> unite and > >> >>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone > >> >>>>>> else to > >> >>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is > >> >>>>>> controllable by a > >> >>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is > >> >>>>>> protected. We > >> >>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom > >> >>>>>> and > >> >>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble > >> >>>>>> initiative. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Peter Donahue > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM > >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Amen, Patrick! > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >> >>>>>> Public Relations Committee > >> >>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students > >> >>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> >>>>>> Patrick Molloy > >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM > >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree > >> >>>>>> with you. > >> >>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way > >> >>>>>> to go, > >> >>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith > >> >>>>>> in the NFB > >> >>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw > >> >>>>>> the thing! > >> >>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away > >> >>>>>> from the > >> >>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially > >> >>>>>> disappears. I'm not > >> >>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling > >> >>>>>> myself with > >> >>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive > >> >>>>>> and, with > >> >>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey! > >> >>>>>> If you want > >> >>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit, > >> >>>>>> more power to > >> >>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy > >> >>>>>> that many > >> >>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to > >> >>>>>> why blind > >> >>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about > >> >>>>>> the potential > >> >>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears > >> >>>>>> more or less > >> >>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for > >> >>>>>> us blind > >> >>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If > >> >>>>>> I decide > >> >>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and > >> >>>>>> found it > >> >>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel > >> >>>>>> that we as > >> >>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car > >> >>>>>> in one way > >> >>>>>> or another. > >> >>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind > >> >>>>>> people > >> >>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're > >> >>>>>> tired of > >> >>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer > >> >>>>>> practice! If > >> >>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we > >> >>>>>> should have > >> >>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues. > >> >>>>>> Separate is not > >> >>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may > >> >>>>>> think it > >> >>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly > >> >>>>>> to at > >> >>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive > >> >>>>>> like our > >> >>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us > >> >>>>>> self-serving, > >> >>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they > >> >>>>>> can take a > >> >>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a > >> >>>>>> bus if we > >> >>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've > >> >>>>>> got time to > >> >>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have > >> >>>>>> the same > >> >>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come > >> >>>>>> the > >> >>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted > >> >>>>>> people. > >> >>>>>> Patrick > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> >>>>>> Hi all, > >> >>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it > >> >>>>>> seems > >> >>>>>> like you > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd > >> >>>>>> buy > >> >>>>>> one if > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> given a choice. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden > >> >>>>>> paratransit > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness. > >> >>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient > >> >>>>>> and safe. > >> >>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you > >> >>>>>> want > >> >>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to > >> >>>>>> override the > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> car. > >> >>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car > >> >>>>>> is > >> >>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk. > >> >>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in > >> >>>>>> front of > >> >>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the > >> >>>>>> speed > >> >>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians > >> >>>>>> to > >> >>>>>> walk, rode rage, and > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> drunk drivers. > >> >>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to > >> >>>>>> override > >> >>>>>> it when obstacles arise. > >> >>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the > >> >>>>>> brakes due > >> >>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who > >> >>>>>> unexpectedly > >> >>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed > >> >>>>>> to, > >> >>>>>> pedestrians who > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk > >> >>>>>> signal > >> >>>>>> is on > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and > >> >>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones. > >> >>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with > >> >>>>>> eyes > >> >>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act > >> >>>>>> upon > >> >>>>>> unexpected hazards. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right > >> >>>>>> ahead and > >> >>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I > >> >>>>>> just > >> >>>>>> don't want to > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> be on the road with you. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind > >> >>>>>> people, > >> >>>>>> but we > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money. > >> >>>>>> Ashley > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton > >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM > >> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with > >> >>>>>> buses I > >> >>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I > >> >>>>>> need > >> >>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time > >> >>>>>> to get > >> >>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the > >> >>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of > >> >>>>>> Dayton's bus > >> >>>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and > >> >>>>>> east-west, but > >> >>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell > >> >>>>>> you if > >> >>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to > >> >>>>>> roll > >> >>>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than > >> >>>>>> boomerang > >> >>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again > >> >>>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it > >> >>>>>> the > >> >>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider > >> >>>>>> it > >> >>>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and > >> >>>>>> other > >> >>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car, > >> >>>>>> which > >> >>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended > >> >>>>>> license, or > >> >>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other > >> >>>>>> blind > >> >>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything > >> >>>>>> self-serving > >> >>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually > >> >>>>>> think not > >> >>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less > >> >>>>>> than > >> >>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people > >> >>>>>> can > >> >>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car > >> >>>>>> would be > >> >>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could > >> >>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and > >> >>>>>> the high > >> >>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient, > >> >>>>>> so why > >> >>>>>> not do it? > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :) > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett wrote: > >> >>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be > >> >>>>>> self > >> >>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes > >> >>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more, > >> >>>>>> depending on > >> >>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long. > >> >>>>>> Here > >> >>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee > >> >>>>>> FL > >> >>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were. > >> >>>>>> So > >> >>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I > >> >>>>>> have > >> >>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving > >> >>>>>> along > >> >>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and > >> >>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that > >> >>>>>> I'm > >> >>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will > >> >>>>>> allowfor > >> >>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time, > >> >>>>>> thus > >> >>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other > >> >>>>>> non > >> >>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat > >> >>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL! > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >>>>>> info for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >> >>>>>> t104 > >> >>>>>> %40gmail.com > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>> Kaiti > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >>>>>> info for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > >> >>>>>> 0eart > >> >>>>>> hlink.net > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> >>>>>> info for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > >> >>>>>> 40gma > >> >>>>>> il.com > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>>>> for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >> >>>>>> m%40gmail.c > >> >>>>>> om > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>>>> for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s > >> >>>>>> atx.rr.com > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>>>> for nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >> >>>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>>>> for nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> >>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >> >>>>>> 0pccua.edu > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> >>>>>> r%40gmail.com > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>>> for > >> >>>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>>> > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > >> > om > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>> for > >> >>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>> > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> >>>> for > >> >>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>> > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > >> > l.com > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Kaiti > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > >> > l.com > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Kaiti > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >> > .com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 02:39:35 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 22:39:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> Message-ID: The squeaky wheel will get the grease sooner or later... I agree with you, Sam. It's sad that we have to squeak so loud in order to get something that's truly important for us to have some times, but at least it gets worked out. Congrats, Suzanne. On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > It is a relief thank you. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> Hi Suzanne, >> Voc rehab can be so strange! Congratulations on getting it aprooved >> though! Maybe they realized you weren't going away until this got settled >> and they wanted to just get you out of their hair. It's sad that that's >> the >> kind of relationship we have to have with these people a lot of the time. >> But good you got what you needed. That must be a relief! >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:38 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> >> I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they decided to >> approve it. >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> >> > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for >> > training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is >> > but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor >> > decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info from >> > Bob; I don't have it anymore. >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be >> > > emailing >> > or >> > > calling him. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> > > > > >> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab >> > >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if >> > >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have >> > >> grounds for a lawsuit. >> > >> >> > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. >> > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would be >> > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what >> > >> you have to do to make sure your needs are met. >> > >> >> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> > >> > Go as high as you have to go. >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> > >> > Suzanne Germano >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM >> > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> > >> > >> > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a >> > clear >> > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal >> > >> > with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request >> > >> > and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. >> > >> > >> > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I >> > >> > already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid >> > >> > for red contacts >> > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school >> > >> > started. I >> > >> tried >> > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they >> > >> > are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for >> > >> > the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that >> > >> > I only need >> > because >> > >> of >> > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I >> > >> > bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was >> > >> > not going to start the semester in a position to fail. >> > >> > >> > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts >> > >> > if >> > >> ordered >> > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr >> > >> > in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would >> > >> > be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the >> > >> > AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low >> > >> > vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they >> > >> > will nto pay for a doctor who >> > >> specializes >> > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton >> > >> > > > >> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak >> > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone >> > >> >> > if I could. >> > >> >> > If >> > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, >> > >> >> > you may be able to speed things up. >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> > >> >> > Kaiti >> > >> >> Shelton >> > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM >> > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > Hi, >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read >> > >> >> > what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not >> > >> >> > going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're >> > >> >> > not paying attention to. >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It >> > >> >> > looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the >> > >> >> > superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you have >> > >> >> > to >> go to. >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >> > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves >> > unresponsive. >> > >> >> >> Failing >> > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to >> > >> >> >> work >> > it >> > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano >> > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >> > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting >> > >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in >> > >> >> >> state but the instate service clearly would not meet the >> > >> >> >> needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not even >> > >> >> >> reading what you send them. >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >>> Suzanne: >> > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a >> > >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what >> > >> >> >>> you want out of this >> > >> >> >> message. >> > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't >> > >> >> >>> always >> > do >> > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, >> > >> >> >>> they >> > tend >> > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly >> > >> >> >>> known for speedy resolution of problems. >> > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is >> > >> >> >>> usually a state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). >> > >> >> >>> I recommend you take that route and explain the situation >> > >> >> >>> and the due date to them. >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your >> > >> >> >>> frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot more help >> > >> >> >>> if you're easier >> > to >> > >> >> >>> work with. >> > >> >> >>> HTH, >> > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested >> > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire >> > >> >> >>>> if she and her supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April >> > >> >> >>>> 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly shows >> > >> >> >>>> he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was >> > >> >> >>>> agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot >> > >> >> >> continue with mediation. >> > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he >> > >> >> >>>> clearly does not even understand the request I had to fax >> > >> >> >>>> him today saying No I do not agree and still want >> > >> >> >>>> mediation. I think it >> > was >> > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us >> > become >> > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they >> > >> >> >>>> do makes sense. >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did >> > >> >> >>>> not read my original request or my appeal with supporting >> > >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you >> > >> >> >>>> did" >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 >> > based >> > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot >> > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light >> > >> >> >>>> sensitivity. >> > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them >> > >> >> >>>> prescribed by >> > >> >> >> Dr >> > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. >> > >> >> >>>> Until >> > >> >> >> January >> > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for >> > >> >> >>>> mainly outside >> > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, >> > >> >> >>>> since >> I >> > >> >> >>>> decided >> > >> >> >>>> to >> > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and >> > >> >> >>>> returning to work; my requirements have changed. The >> > >> >> >>>> current contacts are >> > too >> > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day >> > >> >> >>>> of classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely >> > >> >> >>>> bright as many dim the lights somewhat for power point >> presentations. >> > It >> > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the >> > >> >> >>>> reds >> > I >> > >> > have. >> > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. >> > >> >> >>>> After much research I have found many achromats go with a >> > >> >> >>>> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas >> > >> >> >>>> etc. I already tried reducing the color by 30%, from my >> > >> >> >>>> original red from 1995, through my low vision specialist >> > >> >> >>>> who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >> > >> >> >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level >> > >> >> >>>> is >> not right for reading. >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized >> > >> >> >>>> low vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye >> > >> >> >>>> Associates in >> > >> >> >> Indianapolis. >> > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and >> > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and >> > >> >> >>>> percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours >> > >> >> >>>> appointment in which I try on contact lenses of several >> > >> >> >>>> colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and >> > >> >> >>>> how they work outside with >> > my >> > >> > script sunglasses. >> > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in >> > >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted >> > >> >> >>>> vendors and how they determine color. None of them did >> > >> >> >>>> anything similar to Eye >> > >> >> >> Associates. >> > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision >> > >> >> >>>> clinic in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend >> > >> >> >>>> 4-5 hours >> > just >> > >> >> >> determining color. >> > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the >> > other. >> > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... >> > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >> > >> http://nfbnet. >> > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> > >> >> >>>> account >> > info >> > >> >> >>>> for >> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: >> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> > >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com< >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf >> > >> >> >>>> bnet >> > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> -- >> > >> >> >>> Take care, >> > >> >> >>> Ty >> > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net >> > >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is >> > >> >> >>> a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >> > http://nfbn >> > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > >> >> >>> info for >> > >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> > >> >> >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 >> > >> >> >>> 0asu >> > >> >> >>> .edu< >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% >> > >> >> >>> 40as >> > >> >> >>> u.edu> >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > >> >> >> info for >> > >> >> >> nabs-l: >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> > >> >> 0gmail >> > >> >> >> .com >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > >> >> >> info for >> > >> >> >> nabs-l: >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> > >> >> 40gmai >> > >> >> > l.com >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > -- >> > >> >> > Kaiti >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > >> >> > info for >> > >> >> > nabs-l: >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> > >> >> 0gmail >> > >> >> > .com >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > >> >> > info for >> > >> >> > nabs-l: >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> > >> >> 40gmail.com >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> > >> >> Kaiti >> > >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > >> >> info for >> > >> >> nabs-l: >> > >> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >> > for >> > >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> > 0gmail >> > >> > .com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >> > for >> > >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> > 40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Kaiti >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > >> for >> > >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >> > >> edu >> > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > nabs-l mailing list >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > > nabs-l: >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> > com >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kobycox at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 02:41:21 2013 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:41:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Question for you all Message-ID: <80F58EAA50E54985B7B4C3933303A34F@OwnerPC> Hello All, I've found a girl friend. Me and her have been dating for at least a year. When I want to propose to her how should I go about doing that? What tips/suggestions do you all have for me? Right back soon, Koby. From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 02:51:54 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:51:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Or maybe Suzanne's appeal was so well-argued that, once the supervisor actually read it, he was convinced to approve the request! Arielle On 4/18/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > The squeaky wheel will get the grease sooner or later... I agree with > you, Sam. It's sad that we have to squeak so loud in order to get > something that's truly important for us to have some times, but at > least it gets worked out. Congrats, Suzanne. > > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> It is a relief thank you. >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Sam Nelson >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Suzanne, >>> Voc rehab can be so strange! Congratulations on getting it aprooved >>> though! Maybe they realized you weren't going away until this got >>> settled >>> and they wanted to just get you out of their hair. It's sad that that's >>> the >>> kind of relationship we have to have with these people a lot of the >>> time. >>> But good you got what you needed. That must be a relief! >>> Sam >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:38 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>> >>> I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they decided to >>> approve it. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>> >>> > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for >>> > training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is >>> > but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor >>> > decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info from >>> > Bob; I don't have it anymore. >>> > Arielle >>> > >>> > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be >>> > > emailing >>> > or >>> > > calling him. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> > > >> > >> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab >>> > >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and if >>> > >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have >>> > >> grounds for a lawsuit. >>> > >> >>> > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about this. >>> > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would be >>> > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what >>> > >> you have to do to make sure your needs are met. >>> > >> >>> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >>> > >> > Go as high as you have to go. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > -----Original Message----- >>> > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> > >> > Suzanne Germano >>> > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM >>> > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>> > >> > >>> > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have a >>> > clear >>> > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal >>> > >> > with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request >>> > >> > and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I >>> > >> > already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid >>> > >> > for red contacts >>> > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school >>> > >> > started. I >>> > >> tried >>> > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they >>> > >> > are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait for >>> > >> > the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that >>> > >> > I only need >>> > because >>> > >> of >>> > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. I >>> > >> > bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I was >>> > >> > not going to start the semester in a position to fail. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts >>> > >> > if >>> > >> ordered >>> > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the Dr >>> > >> > in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference would >>> > >> > be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the >>> > >> > AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low >>> > >> > vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they >>> > >> > will nto pay for a doctor who >>> > >> specializes >>> > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>> > >> > >> > >> >> wrote: >>> > >> > >>> > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak >>> > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >>> > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone >>> > >> >> > if I could. >>> > >> >> > If >>> > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an appeal, >>> > >> >> > you may be able to speed things up. >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >>> > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> > >> >> > Kaiti >>> > >> >> Shelton >>> > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM >>> > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > Hi, >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read >>> > >> >> > what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not >>> > >> >> > going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're >>> > >> >> > not paying attention to. >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It >>> > >> >> > looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the >>> > >> >> > superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you have >>> > >> >> > to >>> go to. >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams >>> > >> >> > wrote: >>> > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves >>> > unresponsive. >>> > >> >> >> Failing >>> > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to >>> > >> >> >> work >>> > it >>> > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano >>> > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >>> > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with getting >>> > >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in >>> > >> >> >> state but the instate service clearly would not meet the >>> > >> >> >> needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not even >>> > >> >> >> reading what you send them. >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >>> > >> >> >> wrote: >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Suzanne: >>> > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with a >>> > >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what >>> > >> >> >>> you want out of this >>> > >> >> >> message. >>> > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't >>> > >> >> >>> always >>> > do >>> > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, >>> > >> >> >>> they >>> > tend >>> > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly >>> > >> >> >>> known for speedy resolution of problems. >>> > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is >>> > >> >> >>> usually a state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). >>> > >> >> >>> I recommend you take that route and explain the situation >>> > >> >> >>> and the due date to them. >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your >>> > >> >> >>> frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot more help >>> > >> >> >>> if you're easier >>> > to >>> > >> >> >>> work with. >>> > >> >> >>> HTH, >>> > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested >>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to in quire >>> > >> >> >>>> if she and her supervisor had agreed to mediation. On April >>> > >> >> >>>> 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly shows >>> > >> >> >>>> he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was >>> > >> >> >>>> agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot >>> > >> >> >> continue with mediation. >>> > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he >>> > >> >> >>>> clearly does not even understand the request I had to fax >>> > >> >> >>>> him today saying No I do not agree and still want >>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. I think it >>> > was >>> > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us >>> > become >>> > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they >>> > >> >> >>>> do makes sense. >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did >>> > >> >> >>>> not read my original request or my appeal with supporting >>> > >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you >>> > >> >> >>>> did" >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, 2013 >>> > based >>> > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot >>> > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light >>> > >> >> >>>> sensitivity. >>> > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had them >>> > >> >> >>>> prescribed by >>> > >> >> >> Dr >>> > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. >>> > >> >> >>>> Until >>> > >> >> >> January >>> > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for >>> > >> >> >>>> mainly outside >>> > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, >>> > >> >> >>>> since >>> I >>> > >> >> >>>> decided >>> > >> >> >>>> to >>> > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and >>> > >> >> >>>> returning to work; my requirements have changed. The >>> > >> >> >>>> current contacts are >>> > too >>> > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day >>> > >> >> >>>> of classroom and homework. The classrooms are not extremely >>> > >> >> >>>> bright as many dim the lights somewhat for power point >>> presentations. >>> > It >>> > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the >>> > >> >> >>>> reds >>> > I >>> > >> > have. >>> > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. >>> > >> >> >>>> After much research I have found many achromats go with a >>> > >> >> >>>> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas >>> > >> >> >>>> etc. I already tried reducing the color by 30%, from my >>> > >> >> >>>> original red from 1995, through my low vision specialist >>> > >> >> >>>> who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >>> > >> >> >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level >>> > >> >> >>>> is >>> not right for reading. >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very specialized >>> > >> >> >>>> low vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye >>> > >> >> >>>> Associates in >>> > >> >> >> Indianapolis. >>> > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and >>> > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and >>> > >> >> >>>> percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours >>> > >> >> >>>> appointment in which I try on contact lenses of several >>> > >> >> >>>> colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , and >>> > >> >> >>>> how they work outside with >>> > my >>> > >> > script sunglasses. >>> > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be in >>> > >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted >>> > >> >> >>>> vendors and how they determine color. None of them did >>> > >> >> >>>> anything similar to Eye >>> > >> >> >> Associates. >>> > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision >>> > >> >> >>>> clinic in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend >>> > >> >> >>>> 4-5 hours >>> > just >>> > >> >> >> determining color. >>> > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the >>> > other. >>> > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... >>> > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>> > >> http://nfbnet. >>> > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> > >> >> >>>> account >>> > info >>> > >> >> >>>> for >>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: >>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> > >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com< >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf >>> > >> >> >>>> bnet >>> > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>> -- >>> > >> >> >>> Take care, >>> > >> >> >>> Ty >>> > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> > >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>> > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is >>> > >> >> >>> a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>> > http://nfbn >>> > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > >> >> >>> info for >>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l: >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 >>> > >> >> >>> 0asu >>> > >> >> >>> .edu< >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% >>> > >> >> >>> 40as >>> > >> >> >>> u.edu> >>> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > >> >> >> info for >>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> > >> >> 0gmail >>> > >> >> >> .com >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > >> >> >> info for >>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> > >> >> 40gmai >>> > >> >> > l.com >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > -- >>> > >> >> > Kaiti >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > >> >> > info for >>> > >> >> > nabs-l: >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> > >> >> 0gmail >>> > >> >> > .com >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > >> >> > info for >>> > >> >> > nabs-l: >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> > >> >> 40gmail.com >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> -- >>> > >> >> Kaiti >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > >> >> info for >>> > >> >> nabs-l: >>> > >> >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> > >> >> >>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > >> > for >>> > >> > nabs-l: >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> > 0gmail >>> > >> > .com >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > >> > for >>> > >> > nabs-l: >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> > 40gmail.com >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> Kaiti >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> nabs-l mailing list >>> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > >> for >>> > >> nabs-l: >>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>> > >> edu >>> > >> >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > nabs-l mailing list >>> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > > for >>> > > nabs-l: >>> > > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> > com >>> > > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 03:52:48 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:52:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> Message-ID: That very well could have happened to. She certainly had enough supporting evidence to justify going to Indiana for the lenses was reasonable. :) On 4/18/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Or maybe Suzanne's appeal was so well-argued that, once the supervisor > actually read it, he was convinced to approve the request! > Arielle > > On 4/18/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> The squeaky wheel will get the grease sooner or later... I agree with >> you, Sam. It's sad that we have to squeak so loud in order to get >> something that's truly important for us to have some times, but at >> least it gets worked out. Congrats, Suzanne. >> >> On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> It is a relief thank you. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Sam Nelson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Suzanne, >>>> Voc rehab can be so strange! Congratulations on getting it aprooved >>>> though! Maybe they realized you weren't going away until this got >>>> settled >>>> and they wanted to just get you out of their hair. It's sad that that's >>>> the >>>> kind of relationship we have to have with these people a lot of the >>>> time. >>>> But good you got what you needed. That must be a relief! >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>> Germano >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:38 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>>> >>>> I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they decided to >>>> approve it. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>> > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for >>>> > training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is >>>> > but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor >>>> > decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info >>>> > from >>>> > Bob; I don't have it anymore. >>>> > Arielle >>>> > >>>> > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be >>>> > > emailing >>>> > or >>>> > > calling him. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> > > >>> > >> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab >>>> > >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and >>>> > >> if >>>> > >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have >>>> > >> grounds for a lawsuit. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about >>>> > >> this. >>>> > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would be >>>> > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what >>>> > >> you have to do to make sure your needs are met. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> > >> > Go as high as you have to go. >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> > >> > Suzanne Germano >>>> > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM >>>> > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have >>>> > >> > a >>>> > clear >>>> > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal >>>> > >> > with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request >>>> > >> > and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. I >>>> > >> > already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid >>>> > >> > for red contacts >>>> > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school >>>> > >> > started. I >>>> > >> tried >>>> > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they >>>> > >> > are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait >>>> > >> > for >>>> > >> > the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses that >>>> > >> > I only need >>>> > because >>>> > >> of >>>> > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. >>>> > >> > I >>>> > >> > bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I >>>> > >> > was >>>> > >> > not going to start the semester in a position to fail. >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts >>>> > >> > if >>>> > >> ordered >>>> > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the >>>> > >> > Dr >>>> > >> > in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference >>>> > >> > would >>>> > >> > be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the >>>> > >> > AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low >>>> > >> > vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they >>>> > >> > will nto pay for a doctor who >>>> > >> specializes >>>> > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond me.. >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> > >> > >>> > >> >> wrote: >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and speak >>>> > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone >>>> > >> >> > if I could. >>>> > >> >> > If >>>> > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an >>>> > >> >> > appeal, >>>> > >> >> > you may be able to speed things up. >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> > >> >> > Kaiti >>>> > >> >> Shelton >>>> > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM >>>> > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > Hi, >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't read >>>> > >> >> > what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm not >>>> > >> >> > going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that they're >>>> > >> >> > not paying attention to. >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It >>>> > >> >> > looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the >>>> > >> >> > superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you >>>> > >> >> > have >>>> > >> >> > to >>>> go to. >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams >>>> > >> >> > wrote: >>>> > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves >>>> > unresponsive. >>>> > >> >> >> Failing >>>> > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to >>>> > >> >> >> work >>>> > it >>>> > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano >>>> > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM >>>> > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with >>>> > >> >> >> getting >>>> > >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available in >>>> > >> >> >> state but the instate service clearly would not meet the >>>> > >> >> >> needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not even >>>> > >> >> >> reading what you send them. >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >>>> > >> >> >> wrote: >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> Suzanne: >>>> > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with >>>> > >> >> >>> a >>>> > >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to what >>>> > >> >> >>> you want out of this >>>> > >> >> >> message. >>>> > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't >>>> > >> >> >>> always >>>> > do >>>> > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, >>>> > >> >> >>> they >>>> > tend >>>> > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly >>>> > >> >> >>> known for speedy resolution of problems. >>>> > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is >>>> > >> >> >>> usually a state office (or a main coordenating supervisor). >>>> > >> >> >>> I recommend you take that route and explain the situation >>>> > >> >> >>> and the due date to them. >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your >>>> > >> >> >>> frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot more help >>>> > >> >> >>> if you're easier >>>> > to >>>> > >> >> >>> work with. >>>> > >> >> >>> HTH, >>>> > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested >>>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to in >>>> > >> >> >>>> quire >>>> > >> >> >>>> if she and her supervisor had agreed to mediation. On >>>> > >> >> >>>> April >>>> > >> >> >>>> 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly shows >>>> > >> >> >>>> he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was >>>> > >> >> >>>> agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted >>>> > >> >> >>>> ot >>>> > >> >> >> continue with mediation. >>>> > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he >>>> > >> >> >>>> clearly does not even understand the request I had to fax >>>> > >> >> >>>> him today saying No I do not agree and still want >>>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. I think it >>>> > was >>>> > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help us >>>> > become >>>> > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they >>>> > >> >> >>>> do makes sense. >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you did >>>> > >> >> >>>> not read my original request or my appeal with supporting >>>> > >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you >>>> > >> >> >>>> did" >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, >>>> > >> >> >>>> 2013 >>>> > based >>>> > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ cannot >>>> > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light >>>> > >> >> >>>> sensitivity. >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had >>>> > >> >> >>>> them >>>> > >> >> >>>> prescribed by >>>> > >> >> >> Dr >>>> > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies Achromatopsia. >>>> > >> >> >>>> Until >>>> > >> >> >> January >>>> > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for >>>> > >> >> >>>> mainly outside >>>> > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, >>>> > >> >> >>>> since >>>> I >>>> > >> >> >>>> decided >>>> > >> >> >>>> to >>>> > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and >>>> > >> >> >>>> returning to work; my requirements have changed. The >>>> > >> >> >>>> current contacts are >>>> > too >>>> > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day >>>> > >> >> >>>> of classroom and homework. The classrooms are not >>>> > >> >> >>>> extremely >>>> > >> >> >>>> bright as many dim the lights somewhat for power point >>>> presentations. >>>> > It >>>> > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for the >>>> > >> >> >>>> reds >>>> > I >>>> > >> > have. >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. >>>> > >> >> >>>> After much research I have found many achromats go with a >>>> > >> >> >>>> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas >>>> > >> >> >>>> etc. I already tried reducing the color by 30%, from my >>>> > >> >> >>>> original red from 1995, through my low vision specialist >>>> > >> >> >>>> who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts in >>>> > >> >> >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this level >>>> > >> >> >>>> is >>>> not right for reading. >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very >>>> > >> >> >>>> specialized >>>> > >> >> >>>> low vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye >>>> > >> >> >>>> Associates in >>>> > >> >> >> Indianapolis. >>>> > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats and >>>> > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and >>>> > >> >> >>>> percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours >>>> > >> >> >>>> appointment in which I try on contact lenses of several >>>> > >> >> >>>> colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , >>>> > >> >> >>>> and >>>> > >> >> >>>> how they work outside with >>>> > my >>>> > >> > script sunglasses. >>>> > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be >>>> > >> >> >>>> in >>>> > >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted >>>> > >> >> >>>> vendors and how they determine color. None of them did >>>> > >> >> >>>> anything similar to Eye >>>> > >> >> >> Associates. >>>> > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision >>>> > >> >> >>>> clinic in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend >>>> > >> >> >>>> 4-5 hours >>>> > just >>>> > >> >> >> determining color. >>>> > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in the >>>> > other. >>>> > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... >>>> > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>> > >> http://nfbnet. >>>> > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> > >> >> >>>> account >>>> > info >>>> > >> >> >>>> for >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> > >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com< >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf >>>> > >> >> >>>> bnet >>>> > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> >>>> > >> >> >>>> >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>> -- >>>> > >> >> >>> Take care, >>>> > >> >> >>> Ty >>>> > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> > >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>>> > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason >>>> > >> >> >>> is >>>> > >> >> >>> a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< >>>> > http://nfbn >>>> > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>> > >> >> >>> account >>>> > >> >> >>> info for >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l: >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 >>>> > >> >> >>> 0asu >>>> > >> >> >>> .edu< >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% >>>> > >> >> >>> 40as >>>> > >> >> >>> u.edu> >>>> > >> >> >>> >>>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > >> >> >> info for >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>> > >> >> 0gmail >>>> > >> >> >> .com >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > >> >> >> info for >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>> > >> >> 40gmai >>>> > >> >> > l.com >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > -- >>>> > >> >> > Kaiti >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > >> >> > info for >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l: >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>> > >> >> 0gmail >>>> > >> >> > .com >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > >> >> > info for >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l: >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>> > >> >> 40gmail.com >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> -- >>>> > >> >> Kaiti >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > >> >> info for >>>> > >> >> nabs-l: >>>> > >> >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > >> > info >>>> > >> > for >>>> > >> > nabs-l: >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>> > 0gmail >>>> > >> > .com >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > >> > info >>>> > >> > for >>>> > >> > nabs-l: >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>> > 40gmail.com >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> -- >>>> > >> Kaiti >>>> > >> >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > >> for >>>> > >> nabs-l: >>>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>> > >> edu >>>> > >> >>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>> > > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> > > for >>>> > > nabs-l: >>>> > > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> > com >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Apr 19 04:00:29 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:00:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> Message-ID: I understand them wanting to know why the eye doctor here would not work but to make it such a battle that I don't understand. I would have been perfectly happy seeing someone here if they could do what I needed. I am just glad it appears to have been resolved. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:52 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > That very well could have happened to. She certainly had enough > supporting evidence to justify going to Indiana for the lenses was > reasonable. :) > > On 4/18/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Or maybe Suzanne's appeal was so well-argued that, once the supervisor > > actually read it, he was convinced to approve the request! > > Arielle > > > > On 4/18/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >> The squeaky wheel will get the grease sooner or later... I agree with > >> you, Sam. It's sad that we have to squeak so loud in order to get > >> something that's truly important for us to have some times, but at > >> least it gets worked out. Congrats, Suzanne. > >> > >> On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>> It is a relief thank you. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Sam Nelson > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Suzanne, > >>>> Voc rehab can be so strange! Congratulations on getting it aprooved > >>>> though! Maybe they realized you weren't going away until this got > >>>> settled > >>>> and they wanted to just get you out of their hair. It's sad that > that's > >>>> the > >>>> kind of relationship we have to have with these people a lot of the > >>>> time. > >>>> But good you got what you needed. That must be a relief! > >>>> Sam > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > >>>> Germano > >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:38 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >>>> I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they decided to > >>>> approve it. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < > >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center for > >>>> > training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his position is > >>>> > but he apparently has the authority to override initial counselor > >>>> > decisions if there is justification. You can get his contact info > >>>> > from > >>>> > Bob; I don't have it anymore. > >>>> > Arielle > >>>> > > >>>> > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will be > >>>> > > emailing > >>>> > or > >>>> > > calling him. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton > >>>> > > >>>> > >> wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire rehab > >>>> > >> services for your state if the vision director won't listen, and > >>>> > >> if > >>>> > >> the overall director doesn't listen then you honestly might have > >>>> > >> grounds for a lawsuit. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate about > >>>> > >> this. > >>>> > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and would > be > >>>> > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do what > >>>> > >> you have to do to make sure your needs are met. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >>>> > >> > Go as high as you have to go. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> > >> > Suzanne Germano > >>>> > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM > >>>> > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they have > >>>> > >> > a > >>>> > clear > >>>> > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page appeal > >>>> > >> > with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my initial request > >>>> > >> > and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. > I > >>>> > >> > already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I paid > >>>> > >> > for red contacts > >>>> > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school > >>>> > >> > started. I > >>>> > >> tried > >>>> > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but they > >>>> > >> > are still not right for indoors and reading. I could not wait > >>>> > >> > for > >>>> > >> > the approval process. I paid $600 out of pocket for glasses > that > >>>> > >> > I only need > >>>> > because > >>>> > >> of > >>>> > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. > >>>> > >> > I > >>>> > >> > bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever and I > >>>> > >> > was > >>>> > >> > not going to start the semester in a position to fail. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the contacts > >>>> > >> > if > >>>> > >> ordered > >>>> > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form the > >>>> > >> > Dr > >>>> > >> > in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the difference > >>>> > >> > would > >>>> > >> > be the Indiana Dr would be able to find the right color and the > >>>> > >> > AZ doctors will not. They also said they will pay for a low > >>>> > >> > vision exam here in AZ above what Medicare covers. So why they > >>>> > >> > will nto pay for a doctor who > >>>> > >> specializes > >>>> > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is beyond > me.. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> >> wrote: > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and > speak > >>>> > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams > wrote: > >>>> > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by phone > >>>> > >> >> > if I could. > >>>> > >> >> > If > >>>> > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an > >>>> > >> >> > appeal, > >>>> > >> >> > you may be able to speed things up. > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of > >>>> > >> >> > Kaiti > >>>> > >> >> Shelton > >>>> > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > >>>> > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > Hi, > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people don't > read > >>>> > >> >> > what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and I'm > not > >>>> > >> >> > going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that > they're > >>>> > >> >> > not paying attention to. > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. It > >>>> > >> >> > looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried the > >>>> > >> >> > superviser, so the next person up is probably the one you > >>>> > >> >> > have > >>>> > >> >> > to > >>>> go to. > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams > >>>> > >> >> > wrote: > >>>> > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves > >>>> > unresponsive. > >>>> > >> >> >> Failing > >>>> > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; try to > >>>> > >> >> >> work > >>>> > it > >>>> > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of > >>>> > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano > >>>> > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > >>>> > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with > >>>> > >> >> >> getting > >>>> > >> >> >> services out of state when a similar service is available > in > >>>> > >> >> >> state but the instate service clearly would not meet the > >>>> > >> >> >> needs. Best way to deal with people who are clearly not > even > >>>> > >> >> >> reading what you send them. > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > >>>> > >> >> >> wrote: > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >>> Suzanne: > >>>> > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal with > >>>> > >> >> >>> a > >>>> > >> >> >>> really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of confused as to > what > >>>> > >> >> >>> you want out of this > >>>> > >> >> >> message. > >>>> > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they don't > >>>> > >> >> >>> always > >>>> > do > >>>> > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that though, > >>>> > >> >> >>> they > >>>> > tend > >>>> > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't exactly > >>>> > >> >> >>> known for speedy resolution of problems. > >>>> > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is > >>>> > >> >> >>> usually a state office (or a main coordenating > supervisor). > >>>> > >> >> >>> I recommend you take that route and explain the situation > >>>> > >> >> >>> and the due date to them. > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your > >>>> > >> >> >>> frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot more > help > >>>> > >> >> >>> if you're easier > >>>> > to > >>>> > >> >> >>> work with. > >>>> > >> >> >>> HTH, > >>>> > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested > >>>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to in > >>>> > >> >> >>>> quire > >>>> > >> >> >>>> if she and her supervisor had agreed to mediation. On > >>>> > >> >> >>>> April > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 12th her supervisor sends me a letter which clearly shows > >>>> > >> >> >>>> he never read the appeal documentation and asked if I was > >>>> > >> >> >>>> agreeable to the conditions of the letter or if I wanted > >>>> > >> >> >>>> ot > >>>> > >> >> >> continue with mediation. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and he > >>>> > >> >> >>>> clearly does not even understand the request I had to fax > >>>> > >> >> >>>> him today saying No I do not agree and still want > >>>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. I think it > >>>> > was > >>>> > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to help > us > >>>> > become > >>>> > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing they > >>>> > >> >> >>>> do makes sense. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly you > did > >>>> > >> >> >>>> not read my original request or my appeal with supporting > >>>> > >> >> >>>> documentation or you would have never sent the letter you > >>>> > >> >> >>>> did" > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb 28, > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 2013 > >>>> > based > >>>> > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ > cannot > >>>> > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe light > >>>> > >> >> >>>> sensitivity. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I had > >>>> > >> >> >>>> them > >>>> > >> >> >>>> prescribed by > >>>> > >> >> >> Dr > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies > Achromatopsia. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Until > >>>> > >> >> >> January > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts were for > >>>> > >> >> >>>> mainly outside > >>>> > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, > >>>> > >> >> >>>> since > >>>> I > >>>> > >> >> >>>> decided > >>>> > >> >> >>>> to > >>>> > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> returning to work; my requirements have changed. The > >>>> > >> >> >>>> current contacts are > >>>> > too > >>>> > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours a day > >>>> > >> >> >>>> of classroom and homework. The classrooms are not > >>>> > >> >> >>>> extremely > >>>> > >> >> >>>> bright as many dim the lights somewhat for power point > >>>> presentations. > >>>> > It > >>>> > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark for > the > >>>> > >> >> >>>> reds > >>>> > I > >>>> > >> > have. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> After much research I have found many achromats go with a > >>>> > >> >> >>>> lighter filter or even a different color browns, magentas > >>>> > >> >> >>>> etc. I already tried reducing the color by 30%, from my > >>>> > >> >> >>>> original red from 1995, through my low vision specialist > >>>> > >> >> >>>> who provides the contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts > in > >>>> > >> >> >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this > level > >>>> > >> >> >>>> is > >>>> not right for reading. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very > >>>> > >> >> >>>> specialized > >>>> > >> >> >>>> low vision contact lens exam and the contacts through Eye > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Associates in > >>>> > >> >> >> Indianapolis. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with acromats > and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive 4 hours > >>>> > >> >> >>>> appointment in which I try on contact lenses of several > >>>> > >> >> >>>> colors and darkness and see how they work for reading , > >>>> > >> >> >>>> and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> how they work outside with > >>>> > my > >>>> > >> > script sunglasses. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I will be > >>>> > >> >> >>>> in > >>>> > >> >> >>>> during class and in study areas of campus." > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their contracted > >>>> > >> >> >>>> vendors and how they determine color. None of them did > >>>> > >> >> >>>> anything similar to Eye > >>>> > >> >> >> Associates. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low vision > >>>> > >> >> >>>> clinic in Indiana has several contacts to try. They spend > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 4-5 hours > >>>> > just > >>>> > >> >> >> determining color. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one in > the > >>>> > other. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... > >>>> > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > >>>> > >> http://nfbnet. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> >> >>>> account > >>>> > info > >>>> > >> >> >>>> for > >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > >>>> > >> >> >>>> tyler%40tysdomain.com< > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf > >>>> > >> >> >>>> bnet > >>>> > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> -- > >>>> > >> >> >>> Take care, > >>>> > >> >> >>> Ty > >>>> > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net > >>>> > >> >> >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > >>>> > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason > >>>> > >> >> >>> is > >>>> > >> >> >>> a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org< > >>>> > http://nfbn > >>>> > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>>> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> >> >>> account > >>>> > >> >> >>> info for > >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 > >>>> > >> >> >>> 0asu > >>>> > >> >> >>> .edu< > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% > >>>> > >> >> >>> 40as > >>>> > >> >> >>> u.edu> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > >>>> > >> >> >> info for > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >>>> > >> >> 0gmail > >>>> > >> >> >> .com > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > >>>> > >> >> >> info for > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >>>> > >> >> 40gmai > >>>> > >> >> > l.com > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > -- > >>>> > >> >> > Kaiti > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > >> >> > info for > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >>>> > >> >> 0gmail > >>>> > >> >> > .com > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > >> >> > info for > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >>>> > >> >> 40gmail.com > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> -- > >>>> > >> >> Kaiti > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > >> >> info for > >>>> > >> >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > >> > info > >>>> > >> > for > >>>> > >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >>>> > 0gmail > >>>> > >> > .com > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > >> > info > >>>> > >> > for > >>>> > >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >>>> > 40gmail.com > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> -- > >>>> > >> Kaiti > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> > >> for > >>>> > >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > >>>> > >> edu > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> > > for > >>>> > > nabs-l: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > >>>> > com > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>> > nabs-l: > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 04:10:38 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:10:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal In-Reply-To: References: <51701CE4.2020201@tysdomain.com> <000c01ce3b91$708d53d0$51a7fb70$@gmail.com> <000e01ce3b92$abb89db0$0329d910$@gmail.com> <000801ce3b9d$ae6ac460$0b404d20$@gmail.com> <000d01ce3c82$64220810$2c661830$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <007e01ce3bea$af779980$0e66cc80$@gmail.com> Outstanding. I'm happy foryou. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 12:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal I understand them wanting to know why the eye doctor here would not work but to make it such a battle that I don't understand. I would have been perfectly happy seeing someone here if they could do what I needed. I am just glad it appears to have been resolved. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:52 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > That very well could have happened to. She certainly had enough > supporting evidence to justify going to Indiana for the lenses was > reasonable. :) > > On 4/18/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Or maybe Suzanne's appeal was so well-argued that, once the > > supervisor actually read it, he was convinced to approve the request! > > Arielle > > > > On 4/18/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >> The squeaky wheel will get the grease sooner or later... I agree > >> with you, Sam. It's sad that we have to squeak so loud in order to > >> get something that's truly important for us to have some times, but > >> at least it gets worked out. Congrats, Suzanne. > >> > >> On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>> It is a relief thank you. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Sam Nelson > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Suzanne, > >>>> Voc rehab can be so strange! Congratulations on getting it > >>>> aprooved though! Maybe they realized you weren't going away until > >>>> this got settled and they wanted to just get you out of their > >>>> hair. It's sad that > that's > >>>> the > >>>> kind of relationship we have to have with these people a lot of > >>>> the time. > >>>> But good you got what you needed. That must be a relief! > >>>> Sam > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Suzanne Germano > >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:38 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >>>> I have left a message for Bob but now out of the blue they > >>>> decided to approve it. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Arielle Silverman < > >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > When I appealed Arizona rehab to send me to Louisiana Center > >>>> > for training, I spoke with Ed House. I don't recall what his > >>>> > position is but he apparently has the authority to override > >>>> > initial counselor decisions if there is justification. You can > >>>> > get his contact info from Bob; I don't have it anymore. > >>>> > Arielle > >>>> > > >>>> > On 4/18/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> > > I have the contact info for NFB AZ state president and will > >>>> > > be emailing > >>>> > or > >>>> > > calling him. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Kaiti Shelton > >>>> > > >>>> > >> wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > >> Absolutely, go all the way to the director of the entire > >>>> > >> rehab services for your state if the vision director won't > >>>> > >> listen, and if the overall director doesn't listen then you > >>>> > >> honestly might have grounds for a lawsuit. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I'd really get in contact with your NFB state affiliate > >>>> > >> about this. > >>>> > >> They would know the system much better than any of us and > >>>> > >> would > be > >>>> > >> able to stand behind you with this. At this point, just do > >>>> > >> what you have to do to make sure your needs are met. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> On 4/17/13, justin williams wrote: > >>>> > >> > Go as high as you have to go. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > >>>> > >> > Of Suzanne Germano > >>>> > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:41 PM > >>>> > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > I have emailed requesting a face to face to make sure they > >>>> > >> > have a > >>>> > clear > >>>> > >> > understanding of my request even though I sent a 2 page > >>>> > >> > appeal with 12 supporting documents. Not to mention my > >>>> > >> > initial request and follow up letter were very clear on what I needed and why. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > The supervisor thinks all i want is a regular low vision exam. > I > >>>> > >> > already paid for one of those out of pocket in November. I > >>>> > >> > paid for red contacts > >>>> > >> > ($400) out of pocket in Dec as I needed them before school > >>>> > >> > started. I > >>>> > >> tried > >>>> > >> > going with 30% lighter than I was wearing for outdoors but > >>>> > >> > they are still not right for indoors and reading. I could > >>>> > >> > not wait for the approval process. I paid $600 out of > >>>> > >> > pocket for glasses > that > >>>> > >> > I only need > >>>> > because > >>>> > >> of > >>>> > >> > returning to school. I paid $200 out of pocket for a monocular. > >>>> > >> > I > >>>> > >> > bought all this because I knew rehab would take forever > >>>> > >> > and I was not going to start the semester in a position to > >>>> > >> > fail. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > What does not make sense is that they will pay for the > >>>> > >> > contacts if > >>>> > >> ordered > >>>> > >> > form an AZ Dr that is one of their vendors but not if form > >>>> > >> > the Dr in Indiana. The contacts will cost the same. the > >>>> > >> > difference would be the Indiana Dr would be able to find > >>>> > >> > the right color and the AZ doctors will not. They also > >>>> > >> > said they will pay for a low vision exam here in AZ above > >>>> > >> > what Medicare covers. So why they will nto pay for a > >>>> > >> > doctor who > >>>> > >> specializes > >>>> > >> > in determining the right contacts for an achromat is > >>>> > >> > beyond > me.. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> >> wrote: > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> >> And if that doesn't work, go to the superviser's boss and > speak > >>>> > >> >> directly to them. This run around game sounds ridiculous. > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> On 4/17/13, justin williams > wrote: > >>>> > >> >> > I would try to talk to the supervisor one more time by > >>>> > >> >> > phone if I could. > >>>> > >> >> > If > >>>> > >> >> > you explain your situation, and that you have filed an > >>>> > >> >> > appeal, you may be able to speed things up. > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>>> > >> >> > Behalf > Of > >>>> > >> >> > Kaiti > >>>> > >> >> Shelton > >>>> > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:36 PM > >>>> > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > Hi, > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > Suzanne, I totally sympathize. I know when people > >>>> > >> >> > don't > read > >>>> > >> >> > what you send them it could be quite frustrating, and > >>>> > >> >> > I'm > not > >>>> > >> >> > going to even bring up the consumer choice stuff that > they're > >>>> > >> >> > not paying attention to. > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > I'd speak directly to the person at the top by phone. > >>>> > >> >> > It looks to me like you have tried the councelor, tried > >>>> > >> >> > the superviser, so the next person up is probably the > >>>> > >> >> > one you have to > >>>> go to. > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > On 4/17/13, justin williams > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > wrote: > >>>> > >> >> >> Try to talk to the supervisor if the counselor proves > >>>> > unresponsive. > >>>> > >> >> >> Failing > >>>> > >> >> >> that, Cap is your next attempt. Try not to do this; > >>>> > >> >> >> try to work > >>>> > it > >>>> > >> >> >> out with the counselor and the supervisor. > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >> >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>>> > >> >> >> Behalf > Of > >>>> > >> >> >> Suzanne Germano > >>>> > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:25 PM > >>>> > >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > >>>> > >> >> >> list > >>>> > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Voc Rehab Appeal > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> Basically advice on appeals. Anyone's experience with > >>>> > >> >> >> getting services out of state when a similar service > >>>> > >> >> >> is available > in > >>>> > >> >> >> state but the instate service clearly would not meet > >>>> > >> >> >> the needs. Best way to deal with people who are > >>>> > >> >> >> clearly not > even > >>>> > >> >> >> reading what you send them. > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > >>>> > >> >> >> wrote: > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >>> Suzanne: > >>>> > >> >> >>> While I sympathize with your issues (I've had to deal > >>>> > >> >> >>> with a really lovely dvr system), I"m kind of > >>>> > >> >> >>> confused as to > what > >>>> > >> >> >>> you want out of this > >>>> > >> >> >> message. > >>>> > >> >> >>> Are you asking for advice? Just complaining? > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> DVR's goal is to help get you employed. While they > >>>> > >> >> >>> don't always > >>>> > do > >>>> > >> >> >>> the best job, they do help some. As part of that > >>>> > >> >> >>> though, they > >>>> > tend > >>>> > >> >> >>> to be part of the government; the government isn't > >>>> > >> >> >>> exactly known for speedy resolution of problems. > >>>> > >> >> >>> if you've tried to appeal to the supervisor, there is > >>>> > >> >> >>> usually a state office (or a main coordenating > supervisor). > >>>> > >> >> >>> I recommend you take that route and explain the > >>>> > >> >> >>> situation and the due date to them. > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> Ultimately, you need to be nice. I understand your > >>>> > >> >> >>> frustration, but going higher up you'll get a lot > >>>> > >> >> >>> more > help > >>>> > >> >> >>> if you're easier > >>>> > to > >>>> > >> >> >>> work with. > >>>> > >> >> >>> HTH, > >>>> > >> >> >>> On 4/18/2013 9:59 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I appealed a decision on March 15th and requested > >>>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 11th I emailed my counselor to > >>>> > >> >> >>>> in quire if she and her supervisor had agreed to > >>>> > >> >> >>>> mediation. On April 12th her supervisor sends me a > >>>> > >> >> >>>> letter which clearly shows he never read the appeal > >>>> > >> >> >>>> documentation and asked if I was agreeable to the > >>>> > >> >> >>>> conditions of the letter or if I wanted ot > >>>> > >> >> >> continue with mediation. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Seeing that they are still denying the request and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> he clearly does not even understand the request I > >>>> > >> >> >>>> had to fax him today saying No I do not agree and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> still want mediation. I think it > >>>> > was > >>>> > >> >> >>>> a delay technique since I need the approval by May 14th. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I simply do not understand why if their goal is to > >>>> > >> >> >>>> help > us > >>>> > become > >>>> > >> >> >>>> employed why everything is such a battle and nothing > >>>> > >> >> >>>> they do makes sense. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> It was all I could to to keep form saying "clearly > >>>> > >> >> >>>> you > did > >>>> > >> >> >>>> not read my original request or my appeal with > >>>> > >> >> >>>> supporting documentation or you would have never > >>>> > >> >> >>>> sent the letter you did" > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> This is part of what I wrote in the appeal > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> "I am appealing the denial of services dated Feb > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 28, > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 2013 > >>>> > based > >>>> > >> >> >>>> on the fact that the three contracted vendors in AZ > cannot > >>>> > >> >> >>>> provide the service I requested. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have complete achromatopsia which part is severe > >>>> > >> >> >>>> light sensitivity. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have been wearing red contacts since 1995 when I > >>>> > >> >> >>>> had them prescribed by > >>>> > >> >> >> Dr > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Hagerston-Portnoy at UC Berkley who studies > Achromatopsia. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Until > >>>> > >> >> >> January > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 2013 my vision requirements for the red contacts > >>>> > >> >> >>>> were for mainly outside > >>>> > >> >> >>>> and very bright places (i.e. grocery stores). However, > >>>> > >> >> >>>> since > >>>> I > >>>> > >> >> >>>> decided > >>>> > >> >> >>>> to > >>>> > >> >> >>>> fulfill a lifetime goal of completing my degree and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> returning to work; my requirements have changed. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> The current contacts are > >>>> > too > >>>> > >> >> >>>> dark and very likely the wrong color for 8-10 hours > >>>> > >> >> >>>> a day of classroom and homework. The classrooms are > >>>> > >> >> >>>> not extremely bright as many dim the lights somewhat > >>>> > >> >> >>>> for power point > >>>> presentations. > >>>> > It > >>>> > >> >> >>>> is still much to bright for no filter but too dark > >>>> > >> >> >>>> for > the > >>>> > >> >> >>>> reds > >>>> > I > >>>> > >> > have. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I have also noticed that the red makes reading difficult. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> After much research I have found many achromats go > >>>> > >> >> >>>> with a lighter filter or even a different color > >>>> > >> >> >>>> browns, magentas etc. I already tried reducing the > >>>> > >> >> >>>> color by 30%, from my original red from 1995, > >>>> > >> >> >>>> through my low vision specialist who provides the > >>>> > >> >> >>>> contacts. I paid $400 for the contacts > in > >>>> > >> >> >>>> addition to the exam just to find out that even this > level > >>>> > >> >> >>>> is > >>>> not right for reading. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I requested for RSA to cover the cost of a very > >>>> > >> >> >>>> specialized low vision contact lens exam and the > >>>> > >> >> >>>> contacts through Eye Associates in > >>>> > >> >> >> Indianapolis. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Dr Windsor and Associates work primarily with > >>>> > >> >> >>>> acromats > and > >>>> > >> >> >>>> specialize in being able determine the right color > >>>> > >> >> >>>> and percent color of the lenses. It is an extensive > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 4 hours appointment in which I try on contact lenses > >>>> > >> >> >>>> of several colors and darkness and see how they work > >>>> > >> >> >>>> for reading , and how they work outside with > >>>> > my > >>>> > >> > script sunglasses. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> What will be the best for the average lighting I > >>>> > >> >> >>>> will be in during class and in study areas of > >>>> > >> >> >>>> campus." > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> I included documentation about each of their > >>>> > >> >> >>>> contracted vendors and how they determine color. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> None of them did anything similar to Eye > >>>> > >> >> >> Associates. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> They only use very limited color choices. The low > >>>> > >> >> >>>> vision clinic in Indiana has several contacts to > >>>> > >> >> >>>> try. They spend > >>>> > >> >> >>>> 4-5 hours > >>>> > just > >>>> > >> >> >> determining color. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> Some achomats even use one color in one eye and one > >>>> > >> >> >>>> in > the > >>>> > other. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> The Drs jsut use "the most popular colors" > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> So frustrating... > >>>> > >> >> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.o > >>>> > >> >> >>>> rg< > >>>> > >> http://nfbnet. > >>>> > >> >> >>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> >> >>>> account > >>>> > info > >>>> > >> >> >>>> for > >>>> > >> >> >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.or > >>>> > >> >> >>>> g/** tyler%40tysdomain.com< > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nf > >>>> > >> >> >>>> bnet > >>>> > >> >> >>>> .org/tyler%40tysdomain.com> > >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> -- > >>>> > >> >> >>> Take care, > >>>> > >> >> >>> Ty > >>>> > >> >> >>> http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a > >>>> > >> >> >>> barebones light-weight mud engine: > >>>> > >> >> >>> http://code.google.com/p/**aspenmud > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot > >>>> > >> >> >>> reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a > >>>> > >> >> >>> slave. > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.or > >>>> > >> >> >>> g< > >>>> > http://nfbn > >>>> > >> >> >>> et.o rg/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > >>>> > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> >> >>> account info for > >>>> > >> >> >>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgerman > >>>> > o%4 > >>>> > >> >> >>> 0asu > >>>> > >> >> >>> .edu< > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano% > >>>> > >> >> >>> 40as > >>>> > >> >> >>> u.edu> > >>>> > >> >> >>> > >>>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > >>>> > >> >> >> info for > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >>>> > >> >> 0gmail > >>>> > >> >> >> .com > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > >>>> > >> >> >> info for > >>>> > >> >> >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >>>> > >> >> 40gmai > >>>> > >> >> > l.com > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > -- > >>>> > >> >> > Kaiti > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> >> > account info for > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >>>> > >> >> 0gmail > >>>> > >> >> > .com > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> >> > account info for > >>>> > >> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >>>> > >> >> 40gmail.com > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> -- > >>>> > >> >> Kaiti > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> >> account info for > >>>> > >> >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> > account info for > >>>> > >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >>>> > 0gmail > >>>> > >> > .com > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > >>>> > >> > account info for > >>>> > >> > nabs-l: > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >>>> > 40gmail.com > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> -- > >>>> > >> Kaiti > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > >> info for > >>>> > >> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > >>>> > >> edu > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > > info for > >>>> > > nabs-l: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > >>>> > com > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> > info > for > >>>> > nabs-l: > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 13:37:35 2013 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:37:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: 2013 MouseHole Scholarships Close on May 15th In-Reply-To: <30731626.100481366373549852.JavaMail.tomcat6@tomcat-anteil2> References: <30731626.100481366373549852.JavaMail.tomcat6@tomcat-anteil2> Message-ID: <000e01ce3d03$0e044480$2a0ccd80$@gmail.com> Please read below: From: info at blindmicemegamall.com [mailto:info at blindmicemegamall.com] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 5:12 AM To: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Subject: 2013 MouseHole Scholarships Close on May 15th Thank you for supporting Blind Mice! The Mice use the proceeds from your purchases to help our future get a little brighter! The 2013 Blind Mice MouseHole Scholarships are now open and accepting entries! When you make a purchase at Blind Mice Mega Mall, a portion of your purchase funds the MouseHole Scholarship Program! Your purchase also helps sponsor the Cooking In The Dark Show! you are actually making it possible for the scholarships and the cooking show to exist! You are helping the Mice make a difference in the lives of many, many blind and visually impaired individuals! The Motto of Blind Mice: Have a MICE Day, "MICE" stands for Make It Count Everyday! With your support, we make this happen! Please read about the MouseHole Scholarships below and forward to anyone that might be interested... Heck, forward this to anyone that might not be interested too! (Grin) If you have not heard the Cooking in the Dark Show on ACB Radio or one of the many reading radio services airing it, Enter Here For Cooking In The Dark Archives and enjoy over 8 years of broadcasts! Blind Mice and you, making tomorrow a little better for everyone! 2013 Mouse Hole Scholarships sponsored by Blind Mice inc Welcome to a dream come true! The Mouse Hole Scholarship Program began as a dream in 2000. It became a reality in 2004 with the first scholarships being awarded to students. The program is funded by purchases at Blind Mice Mega Mall and private donations! The number of awards and the amount of each scholarship varies each year. Our goal is to offer more and larger scholarships every successive year! This depends upon the income generated by these sources. Every time you make a purchase at Blind Mice Mega Mall the Scholarship Fund grows! Blind Mice Inc, through your purchases, donations from companies, and contributions by friends of the Mice, has offered over $28,350.00 in scholarships to students since 2004! The goal for the program as stated by the founder of Blind Mice inc and the Mouse Hole Scholarship Program, Dale Campbell, is to be able to provide a scholarship to every student that applies! The scholarships are open to visually impaired students and also to sighted students with visually impaired parents. Let's all work together to make life better for everyone! See this year's awards <> Jump to this year's essay topic <> Read the eligibility rules for the Mouse Hole Scholarship Essay Contest <> Jump to 'How to get an application' <> Jump to 'Directions for Submitting Essays' <> Awards for the 2013 Mouse Hole Scholarship Essay Contest Blind Mice Shoppers raised over $2,500.00 in 2012 for the Mouse Hole Scholarship Fund and The Mice donated another $500.00!! 2013 Mousehole Scholarship Awards . The Antonia M. Derks Memorial Scholarship: $2,000.00 The Antonia M. Derks Memorial Scholarship carries the name of a great lady and will be awarded to the top applicant.! . The Kelsey Campbell Memorial Scholarship: $1,000.00 The Kelsey Campbell Memorial Scholarship is awarded to the first runner-up! Back to Top <> The topic for this year's essay: Mouse Hole Scholarship 2013 Essay Topic Applicants are asked to write about the following: The year is 2023. You have just received an invitation to your 10-year high school reunion. Thoughts of the past fly through your head. As you reflect upon the past, write about where you are in your life in the year 2023. The essay should be a combination of fact and fiction. Use your imagination, experiences, and dreams to create your essay! Here are some questions to get you thinking! A winning essay will be composed using these prompts in a very creative manner! Please don't put our judges to sleep with a boring essay! Don't be afraid to have some fun with this essay and dream a little! Remember, it is ten years in the future! Let your imagination go! About You: * Who makes up your family and What are they like? * What are your likes and dislikes. * What are your strengths and weaknesses. * What groups and organizations did you belong to in high school? * What were your activities and interests in high school and how did they influence you? * Did you continue these interests in college? * How have the members of your family influenced you? * What else has influenced you and your beliefs, goals, and dreams? * Has blindness affected your ideas, goals, and dreams? About college: * Why did you choose the college you attended? * How did earning a college degree help you reach your goals? * Why did you want to attend college and study in your chosen field? * What was the hardest part of college and earning your degree? * Upon entering college, what was your biggest fear and how did you overcome this fear? * How did the Mouse Hole Scholarship help you? * What did you expect college to be like? * What activities and interests did you pursue in college? * What groups and organizations did you belong to in college? After College: * What career did you end up in? * Are you married? * Do you have children? * Is your life turning out as you expected? * What are your goals for the future? * Are you looking forward to your 10 Year Graduation Reunion? Again, this essay is an opportunity to dream a little about your future and to tell us about yourself in a creative manner. The length of the essay should be between 4 and 15 pages. Essays will be judged on originality, creativity, grammar, spelling, and the judge's overall impression of the applicant. We look forward to reading your essays! Good Luck! Back to Top <> 2013 Mouse Hole Scholarship Essay Contest Rules Eligibility Rules: 1. Applicants or their parent or parents corrected vision must be 20/200 or worse in both eyes, i.e. legally visually impaired, to apply for this scholarship. 2. Applicants must be a high school graduate or equivalent and be graduating by the summer of 2013 and not have been previously enrolled solely in any college. If receiving a GED, it must be earned by the summer of 2013. 3. Applicants must be attending a college or university degree program in the United States beginning in either the Fall of 2013 or the Spring of 2013. 4. The length of the essay will be at least 4 pages and not exceed 15 pages double spaced. 5. Essays may be submitted for consideration only in these ways: A. Electronically sent as attachments by e-mail B. Saved on a CD-R and mailed Submissions sent as an attachment by e-mail or those saved on Cd-R must be in MS Word (.doc format only) or text format. Entries received in any other formats except those listed above will not be accepted or considered. 6. The Information Cover Sheet and a letter of recommendation must accompany each essay. 7. The letter of recommendation must be written by the student?s school counselor, an administrator , or by one of the student?s teachers. 8. All Submissions will become the property of Blind Mice inc and Mouse Hole Scholarships. 9. All decisions made by the judges and Blind Mice Inc. are final. 10. Essays will be accepted until May 15, 2013. 11. Recipients of awards will be notified on or before June 30, 2013. 12. . The names of award recipients and their essays, in part or whole, may be used by Blind Mice inc for promotional purposes. 13. Scholarships will be paid, in the name of the winning students, to the general scholarship fund of the college or university the winning applicants will be attending. 14. Proof of visual impairment may be requested before awards are presented. 15. These scholarships are limited to individuals pursuing a post-secondary college or university degree program in the United States. 16. Individuals may submit only one application for an award period 17. Judges, officers, Board Members, and employees of Blind Mice inc. as well as their families are not eligible for the scholarship awards. 18. These rules may be amended or changed at anytime by Blind Mice Inc. . without notice. E-mail address for submissions: blindmicemart at att.net Submit Essay, Application, and Recommendation Letter Here! Postal Address for mailing essays: Mouse Hole Scholarships c/o Blind Mice inc 16810 Pinemoor Way Houston, TX 77058 Contact Phone Number: 713 893 7277 Back to Top <> How to Get an Application We will be happy to e-mail an application to you. Click on the link below to request your application. If you need us to send it to a different e-mail address, please indicate the address that the application should be sent to. Send for an application now! Back to Top <> Directions for Submitting Essays: The application, letter of recommendation, and essay can be submitted by e-mail or by saving the documents on a CD-R and mailed. The documents should be saved in MS Word (.doc format only) or Text format only to be considered. To Submit Electronically by E-mail: Send application, recommendation letter, and essay as attachments to blindmicemart at att.net Ready to send entry? Click here! Remember The files must be in MS Word (.doc format only) or Text format. Electronic submissions must be received before midnight (central time) May 16, 2013 . A confirmation will be sent confirming the receipt of your essay. To Submit by mail on CDR or 3.5 inch floppy diskette: Save application, recommendation letter, and essay in MS Word (.doc format only) or Text format on a CD-R and mail to: Mouse Hole Scholarships 16810 Pinemoor Way Houston, TX 77058 Parcel must be postmarked on or before May 15, 2013 to be accepted. No materials will be returned. Please contact us with any questions: By E-mail: blindmicemart at att.net or info at blindmicemart.com By Phone: call: 713 893 7277 Back to Top <> From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 13:30:18 2013 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:30:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2013.1rc1 available for testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000d01ce3d02$0a15c1b0$1e414510$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: Nvda-announce [mailto:nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org] On Behalf Of NVDA announcement list Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 8:37 PM To: NVDA announcement mailing list Subject: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2013.1rc1 available for testing NVDA 2013.1rc1 has just been released. This is a release candidate, which means that unless any critical issues are found, this will be almost identical to the final 2013.1 release. Note that some translations may not yet be updated. They will be updated by the time of the final 2013.1 release. To download or read more, please visit: http://community.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2013.1rc1Released Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate -- This is the NVDA announcement mailing list. To unsubscribe or edit your options, please visit: http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-announce From blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 14:42:44 2013 From: blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com (Aleeha Dudley) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:42:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] April Meeting of the Ohio Association of Blind Students References: <003a01ce3cb6$fd1cf190$f756d4b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello All, I know it is really late notice, but if you are not doing anything tonight, please consider coming to this conference call. It will provide a lot of great information about what to expect when it comes to talking to professors about classes and also about tactile images and electronic textbooks. It should be a great time and you can ask questions of both of our sure-to-be wonderful speakers! Below you will find all the info! Hope to see you on the call! It's open to anyone! Aleeha Aleeha dudley Begin forwarded message: > From: "Kaiti Shelton" > Date: April 19, 2013, 12:33:04 AM EDT > Subject: April Meeting > > Hi OABSters, > > our April meeting will be held at 7:00. Call in at 218-862-6420, Code 212-7918 to join. We will be having some really cool speakers give a panel discussion on disability services, so it’s something I think all of us, whether you are a college vet, currently in college, going into it next fall, or are still in high school would benefit from hearing. It’s always good to have things repeated every once in a while, or for some of us said well before they have to be. > > The agenda will be a little different this month; we’ll have to approve the minutes from the last two meetings since we technically didn’t have enough people to approve February’s last month, then we will let our speakers have the floor and discuss new business when they are done. I’ve written short biographies on who the confirmed presenters are and what they do below so you can get an idea of their perspectives and experiences, as well as what they will be contributing to the conversation. > > Jordan Harshman is a TA at Miami University. Through working with Aleeha in her chemistry classes he has come up with some creative and innovative ways to make visual subjects like chemistry accessible to blind students in the classroom. Jordan recently presented on accessibility in the chemistry classroom at the American Chemical Society’s national convention. To compliment what Jordan has to say about tactile images, Deanna Arbuckle, the disabilities and assistive technology coordinator at the University of Dayton, will speak about the text aspects of disability services. She will focus on E-text and alternative formats for textbooks, web-based course materials, and other options which would be available to a blind student for receiving accessible materials. Deanna also is an adjunct faculty member at Wright State University, where she teaches a Medical Aspects of Disability course in the Rehabilitative Studies department. > > Throughout the discussion both Jordan and Deanna will touch on basic tips for success with the DS office and professors, such as ways to properly communicate with professors regarding your blindness before the start of the semester and advocating for your needs in the classroom. It’s going to be a great discussion and I think we all would benefit from participating in it. Hope to hear you all on the call. > > > Kaiti Shelton > University of Dayton---2016 > Music Therapy Major, Psychology Minor, Clarinet > Secretary, Ohio Association of Blind Students (OABS)-NFB > Member of Alpha Phi Omega-Alpha Gamma Xi Chapter > > From gloria.graves at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 20:24:16 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 15:24:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Drop Box Message-ID: <1FEDCB2BA4854DCEB11036A5EE5DC353@Gloria> Hi all, I was wondering if any of you use or have used drop box and could help me out? I am trying to upload some files to a shared folder, but it seems as if the files aren't being up loaded or maybe my computer is just really slow. I am a JAWs user, so I hit insert f11 to see if the files are up to date or see how much time is left on uploading them, and it just says, fifteen files being uploaded, and every once in a while it will say, fifteen files being uploaded 45 minutes left or other times it says, fifteen files being uploaded 3 hours remanding. I am not sure what is going on or maybe if I should erase the files and start over. I haven't used drop box much so am not sure what is going on or what to do. Any help would be great! Thanks, Gloria From kingettr at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 21:37:51 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 16:37:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Drop Box In-Reply-To: <1FEDCB2BA4854DCEB11036A5EE5DC353@Gloria> References: <1FEDCB2BA4854DCEB11036A5EE5DC353@Gloria> Message-ID: <51730AAF.6020008@gmail.com> check and see if you are not uploading more than 2 gigs. sometimes they will not upload if that happens. try removing some files or using the web inter face to upload. From gloria.graves at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 21:46:12 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 16:46:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Drop Box References: <1FEDCB2BA4854DCEB11036A5EE5DC353@Gloria> <51730AAF.6020008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0FDD5D88DD6A43B0BC8BD47F166F13C2@Gloria> thank you ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert William Kingett" To: Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Drop Box > check and see if you are not uploading more than 2 gigs. sometimes they > will not upload if that happens. try removing some files or using the web > inter face to upload. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From lrsj89 at aol.com Sat Apr 20 22:34:28 2013 From: lrsj89 at aol.com (lrsj89 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 18:34:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Message-ID: <4DD9A4B0-0696-42FF-A6EF-9D562C72BB6C@aol.com> Can some one tel me RFBND's phone number? Sent from my iPod From kobycox at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 22:41:42 2013 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:41:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello In-Reply-To: <4DD9A4B0-0696-42FF-A6EF-9D562C72BB6C@aol.com> Message-ID: They are now called Learning Alley however, It's still the same thing. There phone number Is as follows: 1800-2214792. Hope that helps, Koby. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of lrsj89 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 5:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Can some one tel me RFBND's phone number? Sent from my iPod _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From lrsj89 at aol.com Sat Apr 20 23:33:19 2013 From: lrsj89 at aol.com (lrsj89 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 19:33:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F714061-B8C4-4B17-B062-3E9401685D39@aol.com> Thank you it did very much my name is Leonard Stamper. Sent from my iPod On Apr 20, 2013, at 6:41 PM, "Koby Cox" wrote: > They are now called Learning Alley however, It's still the same thing. > There phone number Is as follows: > 1800-2214792. > Hope that helps, > Koby. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > lrsj89 at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 5:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Hello > > Can some one tel me RFBND's phone number? > > Sent from my iPod > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lrsj89%40aol.com From liamskitten at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 03:37:13 2013 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 22:37:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello In-Reply-To: <4F714061-B8C4-4B17-B062-3E9401685D39@aol.com> References: <4F714061-B8C4-4B17-B062-3E9401685D39@aol.com> Message-ID: Hello: It is also worth adding that: Representatives are available Monday through Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. ET You may already know this, but I know that when I first signed up, I had problems that could have easily been resolved the day they cropped up if I'd bothered to pay attention to their extremely long/flexible bizness hours. Warmly, Courtney From clb5590 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 19:16:10 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:16:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about the most recent Adobe update Message-ID: Hi all, An interesting thing happened last week when I downloaded the most recent update for Adobe, and I thought it was just me until someone else mentioned this happening. I initiated the update, and all of a sudden, JAWS stopped talking, and some prompt to start the Windows accessibility tutorials came up. I had no idea what was going and restarted my computer. Someone at my chapter meeting said this happened. Apparently it crashes all screen readers. I don't know. I tried some Google searches and really didn't get anywhere. Now Adobe isn't working altogether which I am guessing has something to do with the fact that I never finished the update. So I should probably use an older version for now, but I thought the experience was very interesting, and I was curious to see if anyone else encountered the same problem. I am using JAWS 13 and Windows 7. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 19:36:14 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:36:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] computers Message-ID: Helo all, I am looking to purchasing a new labtop and was wonderin gif someone could help me. I am wanting to purchase a Toshiba, but wasn't sure how much ram, memory and so on I needed to be able to run JAWs successfully and be able to have multiple things going on without the computer running slow. I am not very tech savy and thought some of you could help. Thanks! Gloria From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 19:54:20 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 15:54:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f801ce3eca$04100e00$0c302a00$@gmail.com> 4 to 6 gigs. Not trying to discourage you, butt mine crashed after only three months of use. It could not find the os. They do have a hot line for assistive users so we saw on line. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] computers Helo all, I am looking to purchasing a new labtop and was wonderin gif someone could help me. I am wanting to purchase a Toshiba, but wasn't sure how much ram, memory and so on I needed to be able to run JAWs successfully and be able to have multiple things going on without the computer running slow. I am not very tech savy and thought some of you could help. Thanks! Gloria _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kwakmiso at aol.com Mon Apr 22 19:53:31 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:53:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about apex error Message-ID: I have a doc document which i cannot access on braillenote apex. It displays as exception: converter. Violation writing 2 Is there any way I can save this document and use it again? From zdreicer at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 19:57:52 2013 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:57:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about apex error In-Reply-To: <5175959d.c58a320a.4a2b.ffff825fSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <5175959d.c58a320a.4a2b.ffff825fSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <84A6693F-840F-4B3D-A0F9-327CE0E31444@gmail.com> Good afternoon! I would suggest subscribing to the braille note list, and you can do this by sending a message with subscribe in the subject line to Braillenote-request at freelists.org I have gotten this error before but I'm not sure how to correct it Sent from my iPhone Using voice over On Apr 22, 2013, at 1:53 PM, Miso wrote: > I have a doc document which i cannot access on braillenote apex. It displays as exception: converter. Violation writing 2 > Is there any way I can save this document and use it again? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 19:58:27 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:58:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good community colleges in the midwest? Message-ID: Hi all, I'm having a heck of a time getting set up with a community college for summer courses. I did a tech prep program in high school and received a scholarship for a free three credit hour class at this particular school. Over the past few weeks I've had a lot of trouble getting set up there with disability services and transient student services. I managed to skirt around the disability issue (I changed the course I planned to take from human anatomy to social psychology because I was worried the disability people wouldn't be able to produce the tactile diagrams) but the transient student person who is my advisor isn't helping much, and overall I'm finding a lot of the people I talk to to be extremely rude and not helpful... I get the run around a lot... get automatically transfered to the ds office no matter what I'm asking the person on the phone to tell me if I just bring up disability services or that I'm blind... and it's very difficult to get simple information about documents making it through the mail to them and getting to the right person and the like. They seem to be having a lot of trouble accomodating my multiple attributes which make me a non-traditional student, (something other than learning disabled, attending a 4-year school and not going there as my main school, already enrolled because of the tech prep program but not actually a transcripted student since I haven't taken courses there yet). It's also ffrustrating for me because the college I'm coming from is much more organized and the people are much more helpful. (They'll set up automatic generated emails to let you know documents were received, are very helpful on the phones, and are pretty much a total contrast to the community college I'm trying to get into. My university has definitely spoiled me. I fully intend to use this scholarship, even if I never go back to this community college again because there is no sense in letting a free class go to waste. However, as my original plans for school involved taking courses over each summer I am wondering if anyone goes to or has attended a good community college in the midwest. I'm in southern Ohio so if anyone has attended another Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, community colleges and had success with their disability services, transfering credits back to a 4-year school, or both, please let me know. (I plan to look into the colleges in my city as well, but I'm just trying to get a broader scope of what might be out there because I've gotten some mixed reviews on the community colleges around me from sighted students and have no idea what their disability services are like yet. I've also heard from sighted students that this particular school is awesome and as a disabled student I'm finding that to not really be the case for me, so I'm also hesitant to take the word of sighted students who don't necessarily have to be as in depth in setting up logistics for their schooling. Any feedback would be awesome. -- Kaiti From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:06:00 2013 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail LMT) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:06:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about the most recent Adobe update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have never herd of that but I had an issue when trying to install the latest version. The window that was supposed to open so you could finish the process never showed up. I had to replace the battery and keyboard in my laptop so I asked the technition to install the latest version for me while he had my laptop so I now have it. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:16 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] Question about the most recent Adobe update Hi all, An interesting thing happened last week when I downloaded the most recent update for Adobe, and I thought it was just me until someone else mentioned this happening. I initiated the update, and all of a sudden, JAWS stopped talking, and some prompt to start the Windows accessibility tutorials came up. I had no idea what was going and restarted my computer. Someone at my chapter meeting said this happened. Apparently it crashes all screen readers. I don't know. I tried some Google searches and really didn't get anywhere. Now Adobe isn't working altogether which I am guessing has something to do with the fact that I never finished the update. So I should probably use an older version for now, but I thought the experience was very interesting, and I was curious to see if anyone else encountered the same problem. I am using JAWS 13 and Windows 7. -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:10:54 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:10:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Good community colleges in the midwest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kaiti, I don't know about specific schools in the Midwest, but I'm thinking you can take social psychology over the summer without signing up for disability services or even telling anyone in the transfer office that you're blind. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones. Email your professor to find out what textbook they're using for the class, get it from BookShare or Learning Ally, then meet with your professor to work out testing accommodations and that's it, you're done and all you have to worry about is getting the credit transferred. Unless I'm missing something, why does your disability have to be a factor at all when you're trying to get bureaucratic stuff done so your credits will transfer? Can you work out your credit transfer without saying anything at all about blindness? Arielle On 4/22/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm having a heck of a time getting set up with a community college > for summer courses. I did a tech prep program in high school and > received a scholarship for a free three credit hour class at this > particular school. Over the past few weeks I've had a lot of trouble > getting set up there with disability services and transient student > services. I managed to skirt around the disability issue (I changed > the course I planned to take from human anatomy to social psychology > because I was worried the disability people wouldn't be able to > produce the tactile diagrams) but the transient student person who is > my advisor isn't helping much, and overall I'm finding a lot of the > people I talk to to be extremely rude and not helpful... I get the run > around a lot... get automatically transfered to the ds office no > matter what I'm asking the person on the phone to tell me if I just > bring up disability services or that I'm blind... and it's very > difficult to get simple information about documents making it through > the mail to them and getting to the right person and the like. They > seem to be having a lot of trouble accomodating my multiple attributes > which make me a non-traditional student, (something other than > learning disabled, attending a 4-year school and not going there as my > main school, already enrolled because of the tech prep program but not > actually a transcripted student since I haven't taken courses there > yet). It's also ffrustrating for me because the college I'm coming > from is much more organized and the people are much more helpful. > (They'll set up automatic generated emails to let you know documents > were received, are very helpful on the phones, and are pretty much a > total contrast to the community college I'm trying to get into. My > university has definitely spoiled me. > > I fully intend to use this scholarship, even if I never go back to > this community college again because there is no sense in letting a > free class go to waste. However, as my original plans for school > involved taking courses over each summer I am wondering if anyone goes > to or has attended a good community college in the midwest. I'm in > southern Ohio so if anyone has attended another Ohio, Kentucky, > Indiana, community colleges and had success with their disability > services, transfering credits back to a 4-year school, or both, please > let me know. (I plan to look into the colleges in my city as well, > but I'm just trying to get a broader scope of what might be out there > because I've gotten some mixed reviews on the community colleges > around me from sighted students and have no idea what their disability > services are like yet. I've also heard from sighted students that > this particular school is awesome and as a disabled student I'm > finding that to not really be the case for me, so I'm also hesitant to > take the word of sighted students who don't necessarily have to be as > in depth in setting up logistics for their schooling. > > Any feedback would be awesome. > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From tyler at tysdomain.com Mon Apr 22 20:13:29 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:13:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517599E9.6000108@tysdomain.com> Hello Gloria: Toshibas are some of the better computers I've ran. Their depot isn't great, but I like them. Whatever ram you do, make sure it's a multiple of 2. 4, 8, 16. Usually 4 is good. You can probably go with 6 but sometimes it's a 4 gb stick and a 2 gb stick which is slower on access. If you're not doing anything intensive it's a good number. I also recommend nothing higher than a duel core if you're running small stuff--email, office apps, stuff like that. HTH, On 4/22/2013 1:36 PM, Gloria G wrote: > Helo all, > I am looking to purchasing a new labtop and was wonderin gif someone could help me. I am wanting to purchase a Toshiba, but wasn't sure how much ram, memory and so on I needed to be able to run JAWs successfully and be able to have multiple things going on without the computer running slow. I am not very tech savy and thought some of you could help. Thanks! > Gloria > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From kingettr at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:25:47 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:25:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] computers In-Reply-To: <517599E9.6000108@tysdomain.com> References: <517599E9.6000108@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <51759CCB.9050102@gmail.com> I’d go with a tashiba and whatever software is on it that you don't need you can ust install it using revo uninstaller to be sure it removes all that extra crap off the computer and in the registry. This can be downloaded with an automated installer because, otherwise, it will ask you toinstalla bunch of toolbars otherwise. Install this version and everything will be automated for you. they also have NVDA there, and other accessible stuff. Visit www.ninite.com/accessible . Try some of the stuff theyrecomend. The only bad thing is their installers run using the internet so if you will be offline for a long time none of the installers will work. I can have some programs grouped into one installer or have separate everything. From lissa1531 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:28:56 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:28:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] justification question. Message-ID: <4CA9192AC6C8481DB857997601EE98FC@HP30910210001> Hi all. I need to write a justification for rehab. Its been a long time since I have done this. Is there anything new I should write in the justification. I am in need of an upgrade of my notetaker. I have the braille sense classic. It is lacking in what it can do. So my counselor is asking for justification for a newer model. any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:38:08 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:38:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] justification question. References: <4CA9192AC6C8481DB857997601EE98FC@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <000301ce3f99$4d4e3400$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> Dear Councilor: I am writing to request an upgrade of my Braille sense clasic to a newer moddol as my present model is not meeting my needs. Here explaine why the present note taker isn't meeting your need, and why rehab should purchose this newer modol. Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I look forward to your responce reguarding this matter. Senserly, Your name. Just my thoughts, RJ Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "melissa Green" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] justification question. > Hi all. > I need to write a justification for rehab. > Its been a long time since I have done this. > Is there anything new I should write in the justification. > I am in need of an upgrade of my notetaker. > I have the braille sense classic. > It is lacking in what it can do. > So my counselor is asking for justification for a newer model. > any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > Blessings, > Sincerely, > Melissa and Pj > Find me on: > Twitter melissa5674 > facebook Melissa R Green > Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:48:21 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:48:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] computers References: <517599E9.6000108@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Thank you this was helpful Gloria ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] computers > Hello Gloria: > Toshibas are some of the better computers I've ran. Their depot isn't > great, but I like them. > Whatever ram you do, make sure it's a multiple of 2. 4, 8, 16. Usually 4 > is good. You can probably go with 6 but sometimes it's a 4 gb stick and a > 2 gb stick which is slower on access. If you're not doing anything > intensive it's a good number. > I also recommend nothing higher than a duel core if you're running small > stuff--email, office apps, stuff like that. > HTH, > On 4/22/2013 1:36 PM, Gloria G wrote: >> Helo all, >> I am looking to purchasing a new labtop and was wonderin gif someone >> could help me. I am wanting to purchase a Toshiba, but wasn't sure how >> much ram, memory and so on I needed to be able to run JAWs successfully >> and be able to have multiple things going on without the computer running >> slow. I am not very tech savy and thought some of you could help. Thanks! >> Gloria >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:49:26 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:49:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] computers References: <517599E9.6000108@tysdomain.com> <51759CCB.9050102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <983D32343AF54A90A10C43CE1ADB83AB@Gloria> Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert William Kingett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] computers I’d go with a tashiba and whatever software is on it that you don't need you can ust install it using revo uninstaller to be sure it removes all that extra crap off the computer and in the registry. This can be downloaded with an automated installer because, otherwise, it will ask you toinstalla bunch of toolbars otherwise. Install this version and everything will be automated for you. they also have NVDA there, and other accessible stuff. Visit www.ninite.com/accessible . Try some of the stuff theyrecomend. The only bad thing is their installers run using the internet so if you will be offline for a long time none of the installers will work. I can have some programs grouped into one installer or have separate everything. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 21:07:56 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 17:07:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] justification question. In-Reply-To: <000301ce3f99$4d4e3400$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> References: <4CA9192AC6C8481DB857997601EE98FC@HP30910210001> <000301ce3f99$4d4e3400$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: I thought RJ's outline sounded good. Also, stating how the newer model will be better able to meet your needs because of it's features in comparison to the older model you currently have. On 4/22/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Dear Councilor: I am writing to request an upgrade of my Braille sense > clasic to a newer moddol as my present model is not meeting my needs. Here > explaine why the present note taker isn't meeting your need, and why rehab > should purchose this newer modol. > Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I look forward to your > responce reguarding this matter. > Senserly, Your name. > Just my thoughts, RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "melissa Green" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] justification question. > > >> Hi all. >> I need to write a justification for rehab. >> Its been a long time since I have done this. >> Is there anything new I should write in the justification. >> I am in need of an upgrade of my notetaker. >> I have the braille sense classic. >> It is lacking in what it can do. >> So my counselor is asking for justification for a newer model. >> any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> Blessings, >> Sincerely, >> Melissa and Pj >> Find me on: >> Twitter melissa5674 >> facebook Melissa R Green >> Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 21:32:58 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:32:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about apex error Message-ID: <5175ac90.2b78ec0a.5bf0.7786@mx.google.com> Have you tried resetting your braillenote? Sometimes it's just a momentary glitch and that will fix it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Miso How can I become a mimber? Sent from my iPod From joshkart12 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 22:18:02 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:18:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hi all In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7717CB35-F309-4D30-AC75-04362EA73ED5@gmail.com> I'm not quite understanding, are you asking how you can become a member of the list? If That is the case, then you already are one Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2013, at 6:08 PM, lrsj89 at aol.com wrote: > How can I become a mimber? > > Sent from my iPod > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 23:16:51 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:16:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hi all In-Reply-To: <7717CB35-F309-4D30-AC75-04362EA73ED5@gmail.com> References: <7717CB35-F309-4D30-AC75-04362EA73ED5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-2037265731294090948@unknownmsgid> I think this person is asking how they can become a member of the NFB. Am I correct? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > I'm not quite understanding, are you asking how you can become a member of the list? If That is the case, then you already are one > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 22, 2013, at 6:08 PM, lrsj89 at aol.com wrote: > >> How can I become a mimber? >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 23:31:26 2013 From: trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com (Winona Brackett) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:31:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Quizlet Message-ID: Hello All, How accessible is Quizlet? I have a teacher who sent me links to quizlet. Are the games accessible with JAWS 14? Winona trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com "Your horn is just an amplifier for the music inside you." - Robert W. Smith Sent from my iPod using VoiceOver From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 23:48:36 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:48:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good community colleges in the midwest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I tried that first. The book I need isn't available on bookshare, NLS, etc, so I need the disability office to put it into alternative format. As of now they're the most cooperative part of the community college; filling out all their paperwork was the hard part, but they received it today and the woman who called to schedule an intake appointment, the last step in getting set up, was probably the most helpful person I've talked to so far. I mentioned my blindness because I needed to make sure that the tech support people would be able to make sure all the online stuff is accessible. At the university I attend now, if something isn't accessible we've set it up so that I can email tech support, tell them what the issue is, and they'll do what they need to to make the site more Jaws-friendly, upload a text-only version of a PDF to the site so I can access online readings, alter the code in the web site so that I can use it, etc. I wanted to make sure that this college would have the capability of doing that too since my initial encounters with the disabilities office and what they could do for tactile imaging weren't that great. Since I plan to take community college courses completely online, I felt like I needed to make sure that things would be screenreader friendly and that if they weren't the tech support or disability office people would be able to fix it. I didn't mention it to the transient student person, and my conversations with them have been the most frustrating thus far. Since I seem to have gotten all the accessibility issues taken care of, that's the one hurdle I have to get over, although considering I've been working on all this for one class since January and I've gotten the run around between departments while trying to figure out the accessibility issues and figure out who my advisor is and who I even talk to to get my credits transfered, I don't think I'll go back to this community college in the future. I plan to just use the scholarship I have there and then to look into other schools for future summer courses. On 4/22/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Kaiti, > I don't know about specific schools in the Midwest, but I'm thinking > you can take social psychology over the summer without signing up for > disability services or even telling anyone in the transfer office that > you're blind. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones. > Email your professor to find out what textbook they're using for the > class, get it from BookShare or Learning Ally, then meet with your > professor to work out testing accommodations and that's it, you're > done and all you have to worry about is getting the credit > transferred. Unless I'm missing something, why does your disability > have to be a factor at all when you're trying to get bureaucratic > stuff done so your credits will transfer? Can you work out your credit > transfer without saying anything at all about blindness? > Arielle > > On 4/22/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm having a heck of a time getting set up with a community college >> for summer courses. I did a tech prep program in high school and >> received a scholarship for a free three credit hour class at this >> particular school. Over the past few weeks I've had a lot of trouble >> getting set up there with disability services and transient student >> services. I managed to skirt around the disability issue (I changed >> the course I planned to take from human anatomy to social psychology >> because I was worried the disability people wouldn't be able to >> produce the tactile diagrams) but the transient student person who is >> my advisor isn't helping much, and overall I'm finding a lot of the >> people I talk to to be extremely rude and not helpful... I get the run >> around a lot... get automatically transfered to the ds office no >> matter what I'm asking the person on the phone to tell me if I just >> bring up disability services or that I'm blind... and it's very >> difficult to get simple information about documents making it through >> the mail to them and getting to the right person and the like. They >> seem to be having a lot of trouble accomodating my multiple attributes >> which make me a non-traditional student, (something other than >> learning disabled, attending a 4-year school and not going there as my >> main school, already enrolled because of the tech prep program but not >> actually a transcripted student since I haven't taken courses there >> yet). It's also ffrustrating for me because the college I'm coming >> from is much more organized and the people are much more helpful. >> (They'll set up automatic generated emails to let you know documents >> were received, are very helpful on the phones, and are pretty much a >> total contrast to the community college I'm trying to get into. My >> university has definitely spoiled me. >> >> I fully intend to use this scholarship, even if I never go back to >> this community college again because there is no sense in letting a >> free class go to waste. However, as my original plans for school >> involved taking courses over each summer I am wondering if anyone goes >> to or has attended a good community college in the midwest. I'm in >> southern Ohio so if anyone has attended another Ohio, Kentucky, >> Indiana, community colleges and had success with their disability >> services, transfering credits back to a 4-year school, or both, please >> let me know. (I plan to look into the colleges in my city as well, >> but I'm just trying to get a broader scope of what might be out there >> because I've gotten some mixed reviews on the community colleges >> around me from sighted students and have no idea what their disability >> services are like yet. I've also heard from sighted students that >> this particular school is awesome and as a disabled student I'm >> finding that to not really be the case for me, so I'm also hesitant to >> take the word of sighted students who don't necessarily have to be as >> in depth in setting up logistics for their schooling. >> >> Any feedback would be awesome. >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From lrsj89 at aol.com Mon Apr 22 23:52:06 2013 From: lrsj89 at aol.com (lrsj89 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:52:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hi all In-Reply-To: <-2037265731294090948@unknownmsgid> References: <7717CB35-F309-4D30-AC75-04362EA73ED5@gmail.com> <-2037265731294090948@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <39702752-4FAE-4EEB-94BB-8BD7C39315F8@aol.com> Yes I was thank you Sent from my iPod On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:16 PM, christopher nusbaum wrote: > I think this person is asking how they can become a member of the NFB. > Am I correct? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 22, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > >> I'm not quite understanding, are you asking how you can become a member of the list? If That is the case, then you already are one >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 22, 2013, at 6:08 PM, lrsj89 at aol.com wrote: >> >>> How can I become a mimber? >>> >>> Sent from my iPod >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lrsj89%40aol.com From kwakmiso at aol.com Mon Apr 22 23:53:06 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Quizlet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D00DCBAB9067E6-1CF4-21F92@webmail-m174.sysops.aol.com> I have never done the games but the flash cards are accessible. -----Original Message----- From: Winona Brackett To: nabs-l Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 4:32 pm Subject: [nabs-l] Quizlet Hello All, How accessible is Quizlet? I have a teacher who sent me links to quizlet. Are the games accessible with JAWS 14? Winona trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com "Your horn is just an amplifier for the music inside you." - Robert W. Smith Sent from my iPod using VoiceOver _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 00:03:08 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:03:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Hi all In-Reply-To: <39702752-4FAE-4EEB-94BB-8BD7C39315F8@aol.com> References: <7717CB35-F309-4D30-AC75-04362EA73ED5@gmail.com> <-2037265731294090948@unknownmsgid> <39702752-4FAE-4EEB-94BB-8BD7C39315F8@aol.com> Message-ID: You can become an official paid member by joining a chapter near you, and you can become an official member of NABS by coming to the national NABS meeting and paying dues. However, you can still participate in all of our activities, except for voting or running for office, without officially paying dues. Where do you live and are you looking to join a chapter? Arielle On 4/22/13, lrsj89 at aol.com wrote: > Yes I was thank you > > Sent from my iPod > > On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:16 PM, christopher nusbaum > wrote: > >> I think this person is asking how they can become a member of the NFB. >> Am I correct? >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 22, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: >> >>> I'm not quite understanding, are you asking how you can become a member >>> of the list? If That is the case, then you already are one >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 22, 2013, at 6:08 PM, lrsj89 at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> How can I become a mimber? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPod >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lrsj89%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 00:05:22 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:05:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Good community colleges in the midwest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why do you need to take more courses at the community college besides the one free course you got? Does your university not offer summer courses? Arielle On 4/22/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > I tried that first. The book I need isn't available on bookshare, > NLS, etc, so I need the disability office to put it into alternative > format. As of now they're the most cooperative part of the community > college; filling out all their paperwork was the hard part, but they > received it today and the woman who called to schedule an intake > appointment, the last step in getting set up, was probably the most > helpful person I've talked to so far. > I mentioned my blindness because I needed to make sure that the tech > support people would be able to make sure all the online stuff is > accessible. At the university I attend now, if something isn't > accessible we've set it up so that I can email tech support, tell them > what the issue is, and they'll do what they need to to make the site > more Jaws-friendly, upload a text-only version of a PDF to the site so > I can access online readings, alter the code in the web site so that I > can use it, etc. I wanted to make sure that this college would have > the capability of doing that too since my initial encounters with the > disabilities office and what they could do for tactile imaging weren't > that great. Since I plan to take community college courses completely > online, I felt like I needed to make sure that things would be > screenreader friendly and that if they weren't the tech support or > disability office people would be able to fix it. > I didn't mention it to the transient student person, and my > conversations with them have been the most frustrating thus far. > Since I seem to have gotten all the accessibility issues taken care > of, that's the one hurdle I have to get over, although considering > I've been working on all this for one class since January and I've > gotten the run around between departments while trying to figure out > the accessibility issues and figure out who my advisor is and who I > even talk to to get my credits transfered, I don't think I'll go back > to this community college in the future. I plan to just use the > scholarship I have there and then to look into other schools for > future summer courses. > > > On 4/22/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Kaiti, >> I don't know about specific schools in the Midwest, but I'm thinking >> you can take social psychology over the summer without signing up for >> disability services or even telling anyone in the transfer office that >> you're blind. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones. >> Email your professor to find out what textbook they're using for the >> class, get it from BookShare or Learning Ally, then meet with your >> professor to work out testing accommodations and that's it, you're >> done and all you have to worry about is getting the credit >> transferred. Unless I'm missing something, why does your disability >> have to be a factor at all when you're trying to get bureaucratic >> stuff done so your credits will transfer? Can you work out your credit >> transfer without saying anything at all about blindness? >> Arielle >> >> On 4/22/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm having a heck of a time getting set up with a community college >>> for summer courses. I did a tech prep program in high school and >>> received a scholarship for a free three credit hour class at this >>> particular school. Over the past few weeks I've had a lot of trouble >>> getting set up there with disability services and transient student >>> services. I managed to skirt around the disability issue (I changed >>> the course I planned to take from human anatomy to social psychology >>> because I was worried the disability people wouldn't be able to >>> produce the tactile diagrams) but the transient student person who is >>> my advisor isn't helping much, and overall I'm finding a lot of the >>> people I talk to to be extremely rude and not helpful... I get the run >>> around a lot... get automatically transfered to the ds office no >>> matter what I'm asking the person on the phone to tell me if I just >>> bring up disability services or that I'm blind... and it's very >>> difficult to get simple information about documents making it through >>> the mail to them and getting to the right person and the like. They >>> seem to be having a lot of trouble accomodating my multiple attributes >>> which make me a non-traditional student, (something other than >>> learning disabled, attending a 4-year school and not going there as my >>> main school, already enrolled because of the tech prep program but not >>> actually a transcripted student since I haven't taken courses there >>> yet). It's also ffrustrating for me because the college I'm coming >>> from is much more organized and the people are much more helpful. >>> (They'll set up automatic generated emails to let you know documents >>> were received, are very helpful on the phones, and are pretty much a >>> total contrast to the community college I'm trying to get into. My >>> university has definitely spoiled me. >>> >>> I fully intend to use this scholarship, even if I never go back to >>> this community college again because there is no sense in letting a >>> free class go to waste. However, as my original plans for school >>> involved taking courses over each summer I am wondering if anyone goes >>> to or has attended a good community college in the midwest. I'm in >>> southern Ohio so if anyone has attended another Ohio, Kentucky, >>> Indiana, community colleges and had success with their disability >>> services, transfering credits back to a 4-year school, or both, please >>> let me know. (I plan to look into the colleges in my city as well, >>> but I'm just trying to get a broader scope of what might be out there >>> because I've gotten some mixed reviews on the community colleges >>> around me from sighted students and have no idea what their disability >>> services are like yet. I've also heard from sighted students that >>> this particular school is awesome and as a disabled student I'm >>> finding that to not really be the case for me, so I'm also hesitant to >>> take the word of sighted students who don't necessarily have to be as >>> in depth in setting up logistics for their schooling. >>> >>> Any feedback would be awesome. >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kwakmiso at aol.com Tue Apr 23 00:04:00 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 20:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Question about apex error In-Reply-To: <5175ac90.2b78ec0a.5bf0.7786@mx.google.com> References: <5175ac90.2b78ec0a.5bf0.7786@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8D00DCD315CE8A2-1CF4-22072@webmail-m174.sysops.aol.com> Yes I have tried reset. Still can't access. Will probably have to remove the file. It is problematic because it was a test answering document. The problem occurred in the middle of testing... Thanks for the feedbacks anyways. Miso PS: if there is anything else that hasn't been mentioned please write back. -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Question about apex error Have you tried resetting your braillenote? Sometimes it's just a momentary glitch and that will fix it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Miso Miso, there are several kinds of resets. There's a soft reset, just press that button. There's also a record-reset (press both the record and reset buttons at the same time), a JKL reset (4-5-6 on a BT), an SDF reset (1-2-3 on a BT) and a hard reset, which is where you hold down the reset button for several seconds, releasing it when a beep is heard. If none of these resets work, you'll probably have to call Humanware's tech support. ----- Original Message ----- From: Miso Kwak References: Message-ID: It does, but the online courses here are a lot more expensive. I'd rather pay 3 or 4 hundred for a class instead of more around $1000, so it's boiling down to money. And I'm trying to take summer courses to lower the amount of credits I'm taking during the school year. With my academic courses and ensembles I've consistently been at 19 credits or more each semester, and especially for junior and senior year when I'll have more advanced courses and practicum sites to go to I'd like to not be taking so much so I can devote quality time to my practicums and other advanced courses. Some of these courses I'll have to take at my university no matter what, and I am required to be in a certain amount of ensembles to keep my music scholarship, but as far as gen eds go there isn't a reason why I can't take them for a lower cost outside when I'm free in the summer and transfer them in. I've taken my school's West and World History and General Religions courses which are necessary to take here, so I'd like to knock out as many gen eds and courses for my minor over the summers that I can since I have a major that is academically heavy too. On 4/22/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Why do you need to take more courses at the community college besides > the one free course you got? Does your university not offer summer > courses? > Arielle > > On 4/22/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I tried that first. The book I need isn't available on bookshare, >> NLS, etc, so I need the disability office to put it into alternative >> format. As of now they're the most cooperative part of the community >> college; filling out all their paperwork was the hard part, but they >> received it today and the woman who called to schedule an intake >> appointment, the last step in getting set up, was probably the most >> helpful person I've talked to so far. >> I mentioned my blindness because I needed to make sure that the tech >> support people would be able to make sure all the online stuff is >> accessible. At the university I attend now, if something isn't >> accessible we've set it up so that I can email tech support, tell them >> what the issue is, and they'll do what they need to to make the site >> more Jaws-friendly, upload a text-only version of a PDF to the site so >> I can access online readings, alter the code in the web site so that I >> can use it, etc. I wanted to make sure that this college would have >> the capability of doing that too since my initial encounters with the >> disabilities office and what they could do for tactile imaging weren't >> that great. Since I plan to take community college courses completely >> online, I felt like I needed to make sure that things would be >> screenreader friendly and that if they weren't the tech support or >> disability office people would be able to fix it. >> I didn't mention it to the transient student person, and my >> conversations with them have been the most frustrating thus far. >> Since I seem to have gotten all the accessibility issues taken care >> of, that's the one hurdle I have to get over, although considering >> I've been working on all this for one class since January and I've >> gotten the run around between departments while trying to figure out >> the accessibility issues and figure out who my advisor is and who I >> even talk to to get my credits transfered, I don't think I'll go back >> to this community college in the future. I plan to just use the >> scholarship I have there and then to look into other schools for >> future summer courses. >> >> >> On 4/22/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Kaiti, >>> I don't know about specific schools in the Midwest, but I'm thinking >>> you can take social psychology over the summer without signing up for >>> disability services or even telling anyone in the transfer office that >>> you're blind. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones. >>> Email your professor to find out what textbook they're using for the >>> class, get it from BookShare or Learning Ally, then meet with your >>> professor to work out testing accommodations and that's it, you're >>> done and all you have to worry about is getting the credit >>> transferred. Unless I'm missing something, why does your disability >>> have to be a factor at all when you're trying to get bureaucratic >>> stuff done so your credits will transfer? Can you work out your credit >>> transfer without saying anything at all about blindness? >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/22/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm having a heck of a time getting set up with a community college >>>> for summer courses. I did a tech prep program in high school and >>>> received a scholarship for a free three credit hour class at this >>>> particular school. Over the past few weeks I've had a lot of trouble >>>> getting set up there with disability services and transient student >>>> services. I managed to skirt around the disability issue (I changed >>>> the course I planned to take from human anatomy to social psychology >>>> because I was worried the disability people wouldn't be able to >>>> produce the tactile diagrams) but the transient student person who is >>>> my advisor isn't helping much, and overall I'm finding a lot of the >>>> people I talk to to be extremely rude and not helpful... I get the run >>>> around a lot... get automatically transfered to the ds office no >>>> matter what I'm asking the person on the phone to tell me if I just >>>> bring up disability services or that I'm blind... and it's very >>>> difficult to get simple information about documents making it through >>>> the mail to them and getting to the right person and the like. They >>>> seem to be having a lot of trouble accomodating my multiple attributes >>>> which make me a non-traditional student, (something other than >>>> learning disabled, attending a 4-year school and not going there as my >>>> main school, already enrolled because of the tech prep program but not >>>> actually a transcripted student since I haven't taken courses there >>>> yet). It's also ffrustrating for me because the college I'm coming >>>> from is much more organized and the people are much more helpful. >>>> (They'll set up automatic generated emails to let you know documents >>>> were received, are very helpful on the phones, and are pretty much a >>>> total contrast to the community college I'm trying to get into. My >>>> university has definitely spoiled me. >>>> >>>> I fully intend to use this scholarship, even if I never go back to >>>> this community college again because there is no sense in letting a >>>> free class go to waste. However, as my original plans for school >>>> involved taking courses over each summer I am wondering if anyone goes >>>> to or has attended a good community college in the midwest. I'm in >>>> southern Ohio so if anyone has attended another Ohio, Kentucky, >>>> Indiana, community colleges and had success with their disability >>>> services, transfering credits back to a 4-year school, or both, please >>>> let me know. (I plan to look into the colleges in my city as well, >>>> but I'm just trying to get a broader scope of what might be out there >>>> because I've gotten some mixed reviews on the community colleges >>>> around me from sighted students and have no idea what their disability >>>> services are like yet. I've also heard from sighted students that >>>> this particular school is awesome and as a disabled student I'm >>>> finding that to not really be the case for me, so I'm also hesitant to >>>> take the word of sighted students who don't necessarily have to be as >>>> in depth in setting up logistics for their schooling. >>>> >>>> Any feedback would be awesome. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 03:39:25 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 21:39:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] justification question. References: <4CA9192AC6C8481DB857997601EE98FC@HP30910210001> <000301ce3f99$4d4e3400$0202a8c0@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <565632B460F046A79370A5DA6A1D256D@HP30910210001> thank you for your suggestions. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] justification question. Dear Councilor: I am writing to request an upgrade of my Braille sense clasic to a newer moddol as my present model is not meeting my needs. Here explaine why the present note taker isn't meeting your need, and why rehab should purchose this newer modol. Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I look forward to your responce reguarding this matter. Senserly, Your name. Just my thoughts, RJ Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "melissa Green" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] justification question. > Hi all. > I need to write a justification for rehab. > Its been a long time since I have done this. > Is there anything new I should write in the justification. > I am in need of an upgrade of my notetaker. > I have the braille sense classic. > It is lacking in what it can do. > So my counselor is asking for justification for a newer model. > any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > Blessings, > Sincerely, > Melissa and Pj > Find me on: > Twitter melissa5674 > facebook Melissa R Green > Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 23 05:11:02 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 01:11:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about apex error In-Reply-To: <8D00DCD315CE8A2-1CF4-22072@webmail-m174.sysops.aol.com> References: <5175ac90.2b78ec0a.5bf0.7786@mx.google.com> <8D00DCD315CE8A2-1CF4-22072@webmail-m174.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Miso, this is Helga. I also owned a BrailleNote Apex. Have you tried browsing your files using the File manager menu? Maybe if you try that you would be able to find your file, and then you could copy it into a USVdrive,, and after you do that then try to copy it again from your USVdrive to your BrailleNote again and see if you can open your file again. Just let me know if you have any questions about it? God bless!. By the way, if you want to talk to me more about this, is better for you to write me to my email address, better than in the list. Thanks. my email is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: Miso Kwak Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 8:04 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Question about apex error Yes I have tried reset. Still can't access. Will probably have to remove the file. It is problematic because it was a test answering document. The problem occurred in the middle of testing... Thanks for the feedbacks anyways. Miso PS: if there is anything else that hasn't been mentioned please write back. -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Question about apex error Have you tried resetting your braillenote? Sometimes it's just a momentary glitch and that will fix it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Miso References: Message-ID: Hey! That Website helped me get through Medical Terminology! It's amazingly accessible! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Winona Brackett [trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 6:31 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Quizlet Hello All, How accessible is Quizlet? I have a teacher who sent me links to quizlet. Are the games accessible with JAWS 14? Winona trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com "Your horn is just an amplifier for the music inside you." - Robert W. Smith Sent from my iPod using VoiceOver _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From troubleclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 12:13:01 2013 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:13:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about apex error In-Reply-To: References: <5175ac90.2b78ec0a.5bf0.7786@mx.google.com> <8D00DCD315CE8A2-1CF4-22072@webmail-m174.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Miso, I would try and export the file onto a thumb drive and then try to import back into the Braille Note. If that doesn't work than the file might be a bad file and you may have to delete it totally. Hope this helps. Sincerely, Nathan Clark On 4/23/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hi Miso, this is Helga. I also owned a BrailleNote Apex. Have you tried > browsing your files using the File manager menu? Maybe if you try that you > would be able to find your file, and then you could copy it into a > USVdrive,, and after you do that then try to copy it again from your > USVdrive to your BrailleNote again and see if you can open your file again. > > Just let me know if you have any questions about it? God bless!. By the way, > > if you want to talk to me more about this, is better for you to write me to > > my email address, better than in the list. Thanks. my email is > helga.schreiber at hotmail.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Miso Kwak > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 8:04 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Question about apex error > > Yes I have tried reset. > Still can't access. Will probably have to remove the file. It is > problematic because it was a test answering document. The problem > occurred in the middle of testing... > Thanks for the feedbacks anyways. > Miso > PS: if there is anything else that hasn't been mentioned please write > back. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 2:34 pm > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Question about apex error > > Have you tried resetting your braillenote? Sometimes it's just a > momentary glitch and that will fix it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Miso To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:53:31 -0700 > Subject: [nabs-l] Question about apex error > > I have a doc document which i cannot access on braillenote apex. > It displays as exception: converter. Violation writing 2 > Is there any way I can save this document and use it again? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From djackson at BISM.org Tue Apr 23 16:46:06 2013 From: djackson at BISM.org (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:46:06 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: <6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com> <6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> Message-ID: <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> From: Roger Williamson Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net Cc: Rehabilitation Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM To: Roger Williamson Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books Hello, If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, Looking for lower priced ebooks, Or previously visited our website, Here's some good news We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library and reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now available for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point in PDF format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also provide ASCII and Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very good on a Nook or iPad.) You can go to our website: www.extralargeprint.org to see the many publications we have available - many are best sellers. Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the type can be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can copy and print them without restriction. When printed they retain the large print size. More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or best-sellers, and receive the book at no cost or obligation. Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. We will promptly email the book to you. Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up a selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or any word in the book description including an author's name. When you have decided which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left of the screen to return to the main menu. Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the top of the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book offer. There is a link, (in blue) titled Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you click on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of the book you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send you the book by email. Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be assured that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If you don't want to receive any future mailings from us just reply to this message and say: "Take me off your list." If you have any questions, please call or write: Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com Mike Gold, Executive Director 424.263.2057 1602 W. 259 Street Harbor City, CA 90710 From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:17:04 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:17:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com><6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> Message-ID: <2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, Are these accessible with screen readers as well? I'm pretty sure if it is a PDF I can get the book's contents some way, but I'd rather have the accessible PDF right off the bat. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Dezman Jackson Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:46 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books From: Roger Williamson Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net Cc: Rehabilitation Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM To: Roger Williamson Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books Hello, If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, Looking for lower priced ebooks, Or previously visited our website, Here's some good news We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library and reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now available for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point in PDF format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also provide ASCII and Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very good on a Nook or iPad.) You can go to our website: www.extralargeprint.org to see the many publications we have available - many are best sellers. Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the type can be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can copy and print them without restriction. When printed they retain the large print size. More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or best-sellers, and receive the book at no cost or obligation. Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. We will promptly email the book to you. Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up a selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or any word in the book description including an author's name. When you have decided which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left of the screen to return to the main menu. Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the top of the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book offer. There is a link, (in blue) titled Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you click on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of the book you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send you the book by email. Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be assured that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If you don't want to receive any future mailings from us just reply to this message and say: "Take me off your list." If you have any questions, please call or write: Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com Mike Gold, Executive Director 424.263.2057 1602 W. 259 Street Harbor City, CA 90710 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From djackson at BISM.org Tue Apr 23 17:21:32 2013 From: djackson at BISM.org (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:21:32 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: <2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com><6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> <2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAF3C@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> I would recommend taking advantage of the free book option to try it out. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books Hello, Are these accessible with screen readers as well? I'm pretty sure if it is a PDF I can get the book's contents some way, but I'd rather have the accessible PDF right off the bat. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Dezman Jackson Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:46 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books From: Roger Williamson Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net Cc: Rehabilitation Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM To: Roger Williamson Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books Hello, If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, Looking for lower priced ebooks, Or previously visited our website, Here's some good news We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library and reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now available for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point in PDF format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also provide ASCII and Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very good on a Nook or iPad.) You can go to our website: www.extralargeprint.org to see the many publications we have available - many are best sellers. Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the type can be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can copy and print them without restriction. When printed they retain the large print size. More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or best-sellers, and receive the book at no cost or obligation. Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. We will promptly email the book to you. Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up a selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or any word in the book description including an author's name. When you have decided which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left of the screen to return to the main menu. Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the top of the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book offer. There is a link, (in blue) titled Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you click on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of the book you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send you the book by email. Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be assured that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If you don't want to receive any future mailings from us just reply to this message and say: "Take me off your list." If you have any questions, please call or write: Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com Mike Gold, Executive Director 424.263.2057 1602 W. 259 Street Harbor City, CA 90710 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djackson%40bism.org From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Tue Apr 23 17:31:23 2013 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (Leye-Shprintse) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:31:23 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Message-ID: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> BS"D Dear NABS, I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! Kind regards, Leye-Shprintse Envoyé de mon iPad From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 18:34:53 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:34:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Mdpobc] FW: Internships References: <018b01ce3f8c$883db5c0$98b92140$@us> Message-ID: <-5335671141521756119@unknownmsgid> FYI: Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: *From:* "Melissa Ann Riccobono" *Date:* April 22, 2013, 3:06:44 PM EDT *To:* "'NFB of Maryland e-mail list'" , "'NFB of Maryland Baltimore Chapter Discussion List'" , "'Maryland Parents of Blind Children List'" , < mdabs at nfbnet.org> *Subject:* *[Mdpobc] FW: Internships* *Reply-To:* Maryland Parents of Blind Children List Hello everyone, I have no other information on this internship opportunity, but wanted to pass it along. Thanks, Melissa -----Original Message----- From: Hall-Hennigan, Tracey [mailto:Tracey.Hall-Hennigan at ssa.gov] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 6:13 AM To: mlomax1 at umbc.edu; Melissa Ann Riccobono (melissa at riccobono.us) Subject: Internships Good Morning Ladies, Please share! I do not have any additional information. Subject: Internship Available Job Description: The Penguin Group Internship is available to students who are interested in the field of publishing. Internships are available in the areas of contracts, editorial, graphic design, managing editorial, marketing, production, publicity, sales, subsidiary rights, and operations. A resume and cover letter are required. http://www.us.penguingroup.com/static/pages/aboutus/employment/index.html Job Description: The Communications Internship is available to students with an interest in Africare's and international issues. Intern duties may include researching, analysis and vetting of communications and media opportunities and requests, compiling a record of Africare media hits, writing articles, collecting data and maintaining up-to-date database records. You must have exceptional attention to detail and communication skills, the ability to work independently and experience writing for print, online and/or telecommunications media to be considered for this internship http://www.africare.org/about-us/jobs/index.php National Public Radio Website: http://www.npr.org/about/jobs/intern/index.html Job Description: The NPR Internship is available to graduate students, undergraduate students and students who have graduated from college within 12 months of beginning the internship. Interns are expected to work 20 to 40 hours a week during an eight to 12 week internship period. Internships are offered in the summer, fall, and spring/winter semesters. This internship provides the opportunity to learn about broadcasting and the supporting areas of NPR. There are many different areas to intern - please specify when applying. _______________________________________________ Mdpobc mailing list Mdpobc at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mdpobc_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Mdpobc: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mdpobc_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 19:45:45 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:45:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil Message-ID: Hi All, Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any information on this devise. Thanks, Justin From juanitatighan at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 19:48:39 2013 From: juanitatighan at gmail.com (Jane) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:48:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so different for every one. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: > Hi All, > > Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a > devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom > Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing > if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For > example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do > anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of > documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any > information on this devise. > > Thanks, > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 20:00:25 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:00:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAF3C@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com> <6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> <2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2> <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAF3C@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> Message-ID: Can these books be read on an IOS device using VoiceOver? Sophie Trist Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > I would recommend taking advantage of the free book option to try it out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > Are these accessible with screen readers as well? I'm pretty sure if it is a PDF I can get the book's contents some way, but I'd rather have the accessible PDF right off the bat. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Dezman Jackson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:46 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Roger Williamson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM > To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net > Cc: Rehabilitation > Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM > To: Roger Williamson > Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > > If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, > Looking for lower priced ebooks, > Or previously visited our website, > Here's some good news > > We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library and > reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now available > for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. > > I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make > available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. > > The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point in PDF > format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also provide ASCII and > Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very good on a Nook or iPad.) > You can go to our website: > www.extralargeprint.org to see the many > publications we have available - many are best sellers. > > Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the type can > be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can copy and print > them without restriction. When printed they retain the large print size. > > More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. > You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or best-sellers, > and receive the book at no cost or obligation. > > Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. > We will promptly email the book to you. > > Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up a > selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or any word > in the book description including an author's name. When you have decided > which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left of the screen to > return to the main menu. > > Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the top of > the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book offer. There > is a link, (in blue) titled > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you click > on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of the book > you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send you the book by > email. > > Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be assured > that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If you don't want > to receive any future mailings from us just reply to this message and say: > "Take me off your list." > > If you have any questions, please call or write: > > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com > Mike Gold, Executive Director > 424.263.2057 > 1602 W. 259 Street > Harbor City, CA 90710 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djackson%40bism.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 20:01:30 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:01:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jane, Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: > I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle hand-written > stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so different > for every one. > > Jane > > > > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >> if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For >> example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >> anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >> documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >> information on this devise. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From juanitatighan at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 20:08:32 2013 From: juanitatighan at gmail.com (Jane) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:08:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for scanning and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software is inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if you want to read it with a Braille display or something. I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I must use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback books, etc. It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone calls from other employees of his. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: > Hi Jane, > > Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to > use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from > what I read. > > On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >> I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle hand-written >> stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so different >> for every one. >> >> Jane >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >>> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >>> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >>> if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For >>> example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >>> anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >>> documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >>> information on this devise. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 20:29:03 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:29:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting. Thanks for the feedback/responses to my multiple questions. Justin On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: > It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for scanning > and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software is > inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if > you want to read it with a Braille display or something. > > I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I > could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I must > use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback > books, etc. > > It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. > Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone > calls from other employees of his. > > Jane > > > > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: > >> Hi Jane, >> >> Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to >> use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from >> what I read. >> >> On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >>> I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle >>> hand-written >>> stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so >>> different >>> for every one. >>> >>> Jane >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >>>> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >>>> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >>>> if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For >>>> example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >>>> anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >>>> documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >>>> information on this devise. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Justin >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 20:34:41 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:34:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young Writers Message-ID: <012901ce4061$fbdaf800$f390e800$@gmail.com> THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY CARBONDALE http://www.angelfire.com/il/yww/contest.html 2012 Winners: Kate Mirly of Smithton, IL(Prose) Monique Ocanas of Park Forest, IL (Poetry) A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY CARBONDALE A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. Entries accepted during the month of April in the genres of poetry and prose. Prize in each category: $150 and a full tuition scholarship to the 2013 Young Writers Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale. To enter in poetry: send no more than 2 poems (limit of 25 lines each) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. To enter in prose (fiction or essay): send one essay or story (no more 1000 words) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. To enter in both poetry and prose: send no more than 2 poems (limit of 25 lines each) and one essay or story (of no more than 1000 words) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $10. Entries longer than the limits listed above will be returned, along with their entry fees. Entrants must be U.S. citizens or permanent residents. All entries must be typed on white 8 1/2 by 11 inch paper. Do not put your name on your entries. Include a separate cover sheet with the following information on it: your name, home address, phone number, e-mail address, date of birth, and the name and address of your high school. Checks or money orders to cover the entry fee should be made out to SIUC, with "Young Writers Workshop" written in the check's memo line. Please do not send cash. Include a self-addressed stamped envelope for contest results. No entries will be returned, so please keep copies of the work you send. No e-mail or faxed submissions will be accepted. Prizes will be awarded at a ceremony during the annual Young Writers Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale, a five-day, co-ed, residential creative writing workshop for high school sophomores, juniors, and seniors interested in developing their skills in the writing of poetry and prose. If a prizewinner cannot attend the Workshop, the prize will not be awarded to that winner. Travel costs to and from the Workshop are the responsibility of the winner. Previous award winners cannot enter again. The Young Writers Workshop will be held in 2013 from June 25 to June 29, 2013. To enter, send your submissions, postmarked from April 5 to April 30, 2013, to: The Younkin-Rivera Prizes for Young Writers Allison Joseph, Director The Young Writers Workshop Department of English Southern Illinois University Carbondale Faner Hall 2380--Mail Code 4503 1000 Faner Drive Carbondale, IL 69201 Email for Questions only: aljosephATsiuDOTedu Winners will be announced at the end of May 2013. Allison Joseph SIUC Young Writers Workshop Director From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 20:51:25 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:51:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil Message-ID: <5176f455.0f84ec0a.1682.019d@mx.google.com> How large is the SARA? Because I tried using some OCR apps on the iPhone, and I will keep trying them but I don't find them to work too well. Is the SARA portable? ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Young wrote: It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for scanning and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software is inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if you want to read it with a Braille display or something. I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I must use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback books, etc. It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone calls from other employees of his. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: Hi Jane, Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so different for every one. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: Hi All, Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any information on this devise. Thanks, Justin _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From juanitatighan at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 20:58:25 2013 From: juanitatighan at gmail.com (Jane) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:58:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: <5176f455.0f84ec0a.1682.019d@mx.google.com> References: <5176f455.0f84ec0a.1682.019d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It's not portable. It's the size of a flat-bed scanner. Once it's set up, it stays there. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:51 PM, Sophie Trist wrote: > How large is the SARA? Because I tried using some OCR apps on the iPhone, and I will keep trying them but I don't find them to work too well. Is the SARA portable? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Young To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:29:03 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil > > Very interesting. Thanks for the feedback/responses to my multiple questions. > > Justin > > On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: > It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for scanning > and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software is > inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if > you want to read it with a Braille display or something. > > I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I > could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I must > use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback > books, etc. > > It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. > Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone > calls from other employees of his. > > Jane > > > > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: > > Hi Jane, > > Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to > use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from > what I read. > > On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: > I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle > hand-written > stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so > different > for every one. > > Jane > > > > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: > > Hi All, > > Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a > devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom > Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing > if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For > example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do > anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of > documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any > information on this devise. > > Thanks, > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan > %40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan > %40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 23 22:52:05 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:52:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com><6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com><664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com><2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2><664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAF3C@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> Message-ID: Hi Dezman, this is Helga. What's up? I just would like to ask you, can these bpooks be printed in a Braille format? I was just curious since Braille is my prefer way in reading books. I actually listen to books in audio format as well, but I also will prefer to have them in Braille since I like to listen and read along. Thanks! I just would like to know. God bless! :) -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books Can these books be read on an IOS device using VoiceOver? Sophie Trist Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > I would recommend taking advantage of the free book option to try it out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith > Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > Are these accessible with screen readers as well? I'm pretty sure if it is > a PDF I can get the book's contents some way, but I'd rather have the > accessible PDF right off the bat. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Dezman Jackson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:46 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Roger Williamson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM > To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net > Cc: Rehabilitation > Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM > To: Roger Williamson > Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > > If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, > Looking for lower priced ebooks, > Or previously visited our website, > Here's some good news > > We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library and > reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now available > for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. > > I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make > available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. > > The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point in > PDF > format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also provide ASCII > and > Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very good on a Nook or iPad.) > You can go to our website: > www.extralargeprint.org to see the many > publications we have available - many are best sellers. > > Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the type > can > be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can copy and print > them without restriction. When printed they retain the large print size. > > More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. > You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or > best-sellers, > and receive the book at no cost or obligation. > > Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. > We will promptly email the book to you. > > Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up a > selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or any > word > in the book description including an author's name. When you have decided > which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left of the screen to > return to the main menu. > > Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the top > of > the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book offer. > There > is a link, (in blue) titled > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you > click > on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of the book > you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send you the book > by > email. > > Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be assured > that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If you don't > want > to receive any future mailings from us just reply to this message and say: > "Take me off your list." > > If you have any questions, please call or write: > > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com > Mike Gold, Executive Director > 424.263.2057 > 1602 W. 259 Street > Harbor City, CA 90710 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djackson%40bism.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 23 22:27:36 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:27:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com><6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com><664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com><2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2><664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAF3C@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> Message-ID: Hi Dezman, this is Helga. What's up? I just would like to ask you, cand this books be printed in Braille format? I was just curious since Braille is my prefer way in reading books. I actually like listen to the books in audio format, and reading at the same time in Braille. Thanks I just would like to know. God bless! :) -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books Can these books be read on an IOS device using VoiceOver? Sophie Trist Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > I would recommend taking advantage of the free book option to try it out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith > Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > Are these accessible with screen readers as well? I'm pretty sure if it is > a PDF I can get the book's contents some way, but I'd rather have the > accessible PDF right off the bat. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Dezman Jackson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:46 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Roger Williamson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM > To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net > Cc: Rehabilitation > Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM > To: Roger Williamson > Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > > If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, > Looking for lower priced ebooks, > Or previously visited our website, > Here's some good news > > We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library and > reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now available > for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. > > I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make > available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. > > The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point in > PDF > format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also provide ASCII > and > Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very good on a Nook or iPad.) > You can go to our website: > www.extralargeprint.org to see the many > publications we have available - many are best sellers. > > Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the type > can > be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can copy and print > them without restriction. When printed they retain the large print size. > > More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. > You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or > best-sellers, > and receive the book at no cost or obligation. > > Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. > We will promptly email the book to you. > > Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up a > selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or any > word > in the book description including an author's name. When you have decided > which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left of the screen to > return to the main menu. > > Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the top > of > the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book offer. > There > is a link, (in blue) titled > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you > click > on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of the book > you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send you the book > by > email. > > Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be assured > that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If you don't > want > to receive any future mailings from us just reply to this message and say: > "Take me off your list." > > If you have any questions, please call or write: > > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com > Mike Gold, Executive Director > 424.263.2057 > 1602 W. 259 Street > Harbor City, CA 90710 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djackson%40bism.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From jeffc4 at lavabit.com Wed Apr 24 00:10:02 2013 From: jeffc4 at lavabit.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:10:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible appointment scheduler Message-ID: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> Hi all, I was wanting to know, I am creating a website for my friend, and I am using word press as the platform, does anyone know of an accessible pluggen for wp that would be able to do appointment scheduling. Thanks Jeff Crouch ham radio callsign- KD8QIQ internet radio station- http://wnntech.com twitter- kd8qiq From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 00:13:32 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:13:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible appointment scheduler In-Reply-To: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> References: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> Message-ID: <517723AC.30202@gmail.com> google calendar. From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 00:47:11 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:47:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil Message-ID: <51772b96.2b78ec0a.6ad9.4d27@mx.google.com> What about the KNFB reader? Is it the same size as the SARA? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jane wrote: How large is the SARA? Because I tried using some OCR apps on the iPhone, and I will keep trying them but I don't find them to work too well. Is the SARA portable? ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Young wrote: It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for scanning and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software is inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if you want to read it with a Braille display or something. I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I must use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback books, etc. It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone calls from other employees of his. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: Hi Jane, Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so different for every one. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: Hi All, Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any information on this devise. Thanks, Justin _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From jeffc4 at lavabit.com Wed Apr 24 01:03:54 2013 From: jeffc4 at lavabit.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:03:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible appointment scheduler In-Reply-To: <517723AC.30202@gmail.com> References: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> <517723AC.30202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901ce4087$98a66f50$c9f34df0$@com> Hi, Rob, and this is a pluggen for wordpress?, I'll have to do some looking around, thanks -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert William Kingett Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 8:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible appointment scheduler google calendar. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffc4%40lavabit.com ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Compare Quotes from Leading From top Insurance Companies! http://click.lavabit.com/tdzcc7pdpcxc77mgpjgswcrx9wgp1qamjtksugtyr1seqdaw9ps y/ ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 24 01:16:12 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:16:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, Sara isn't going to be any better than Kurzweil. It is designed as an easy-to-use appliance for seniors and others. As a student you probably want, and can use all the features that Kurzweil has to offer. Dave At 02:45 PM 4/23/2013, you wrote: >Hi All, > >Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For >example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >information on this devise. > >Thanks, > >Justin From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 24 01:19:45 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:19:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: <51772b96.2b78ec0a.6ad9.4d27@mx.google.com> References: <51772b96.2b78ec0a.6ad9.4d27@mx.google.com> Message-ID: No, the KNFB Reader is a cell phone with special software. Dave p.s. If you want a truly portable device this is probably your highest quality choice at this point. There are a number of apps for the iPhone, and some do a pretty good job, but no one can quite get the quality of KNFB Reader yet. DA At 07:47 PM 4/23/2013, you wrote: >What about the KNFB reader? Is it the same size as the SARA? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jane To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:58:25 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil > >It's not portable. It's the size of a flat-bed scanner. Once it's >set up, it stays there. > >Jane > > > > > >On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:51 PM, Sophie Trist wrote: > >How large is the SARA? Because I tried using some OCR apps on the >iPhone, and I will keep trying them but I don't find them to work >too well. Is the SARA portable? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Justin Young To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:29:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil > >Very interesting. Thanks for the feedback/responses to my multiple questions. > >Justin > >On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for scanning >and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software is >inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if >you want to read it with a Braille display or something. > >I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I >could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I must >use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback >books, etc. > >It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. >Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone >calls from other employees of his. > >Jane > > > > >On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: > >Hi Jane, > >Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to >use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from >what I read. > >On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle >hand-written >stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so >different >for every one. > >Jane > > > > >On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: > >Hi All, > >Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? >For >example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >information on this devise. > >Thanks, > >Justin From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 02:55:45 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:55:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't really read it. On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: > BS"D > > Dear NABS, > > I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. I've > chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish children's > and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where I can rasearch > information to my thesis, do you know if someone else have written about > this subject? I think it's a very important subject but since Swedish isn't > a big language I can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all > ideas you can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit > overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! > > Kind regards, > Leye-Shprintse > > Envoyé de mon iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 02:17:18 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:17:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil Message-ID: <517740b5.47e6ec0a.500f.6530@mx.google.com> I'm sorry. I thought the KNFB reader was the same as the Kurtzwile device. That's the one I was wondering about. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews wrote: How large is the SARA? Because I tried using some OCR apps on the iPhone, and I will keep trying them but I don't find them to work too well. Is the SARA portable? ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Young wrote: It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for scanning and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software is inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if you want to read it with a Braille display or something. I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I must use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback books, etc. It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone calls from other employees of his. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: Hi Jane, Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so different for every one. Jane On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: Hi All, Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any information on this devise. Thanks, Justin _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 01:32:31 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:32:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: <51772b96.2b78ec0a.6ad9.4d27@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the feedback. Just curious as I said about SARA because I've never used it. Justin On 4/23/13, David Andrews wrote: > No, the KNFB Reader is a cell phone with special software. > > Dave > > p.s. If you want a truly portable device this is probably your > highest quality choice at this point. There are a number of apps for > the iPhone, and some do a pretty good job, but no one can quite get > the quality of KNFB Reader yet. > > DA > > > At 07:47 PM 4/23/2013, you wrote: >>What about the KNFB reader? Is it the same size as the SARA? >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Jane >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:58:25 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil >> >>It's not portable. It's the size of a flat-bed scanner. Once it's >>set up, it stays there. >> >>Jane >> >> >> >> >> >>On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:51 PM, Sophie Trist >> wrote: >> >>How large is the SARA? Because I tried using some OCR apps on the >>iPhone, and I will keep trying them but I don't find them to work >>too well. Is the SARA portable? >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Justin Young >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:29:03 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil >> >>Very interesting. Thanks for the feedback/responses to my multiple >> questions. >> >>Justin >> >>On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >>It's very simple to use. It is, literally, a stand-alone device for >> scanning >>and listening to stuff. You don't hook it to your ocmputer--the software >> is >>inside the machine. You can copy stuff from it onto your computer, say if >>you want to read it with a Braille display or something. >> >>I use it sometimes, but I wish I had a lighter camera or something that I >>could use with my Mac, but since VR got it for me, well, this is what I >> must >>use, and at least I have something that will let me read mail, pap[erback >>books, etc. >> >>It only took me 15 minute of in-person training to get used to the device. >>Perhaps not even that, since the guy was interrupted by a couple of phone >>calls from other employees of his. >> >>Jane >> >> >> >> >>On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Justin Young wrote: >> >>Hi Jane, >> >>Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to >>use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from >>what I read. >> >>On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >>I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle >>hand-written >>stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because han-writing is so >>different >>for every one. >> >>Jane >> >> >> >> >>On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: >> >>Hi All, >> >>Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >>devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >>Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >>if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? >>For >>example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >>anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >>documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >>information on this devise. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Justin > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From kingettr at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 01:36:33 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:36:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Turning a Page for the Blind In-Reply-To: <517723AC.30202@gmail.com> References: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> <517723AC.30202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51773721.7@gmail.com> JBI International’s Braille materials and audiobooks help blind Jews stay connected to the community Yael Korc, age 10 and a half, has been blind since birth. Retinopathy of prematurity robbed her of sight, but her parents, Rebecca and Marcelo Korc of El Paso, Texas, are determined not to let this slow her down. Yael studies karate and loves to swim. And, thanks to Braille, she is also a voracious reader—her favorite books include the Nancy Drew and Boxcar Children mysteries and the Ramona stories by Beverly Cleary. “She adores reading,” Rebecca said. “Anything in Braille, even if it’s just an elevator sign, helps her feel included.” The same holds true for Jewish texts, as Yael attends Hebrew school and starts to prepare for her bat mitzvah. Here, too, Braille helps her feel included. “Her Sunday school materials help her feel like any other member of her class,” said Rebecca. “She reads books in English and Jewish texts in Hebrew, and because Marcelo works for the World Health Organization and we used to be stationed in Bogota, she can read Braille in Spanish, too.” Many of Yael’s books come from JBI International (established in 1931 as the Jewish Braille Institute), which has provided her with books in all three languages. “She flew through the entire beginning Hebrew primer,” her mom said proudly. “It took all of eight weeks. Now she keeps up with her class; she just learned Ein Keloheinu—she’s unstoppable!” If Yael wished to study Jewish subjects in Russian, Yiddish, Hungarian, or Romanian, she could do that through JBI, too. The organization serves over 35,000 blind or vision-impaired clients around the globe; it has translated prayer books for all Jewish denominations into Braille, distributed free large-print Haggadot at Passover, and recorded over 13,000 audiobooks of Jewish interest. Thirty-five years ago, it established a vision clinic in Tel Aviv that now serves 6,000 people a year, from blinded Israeli soldiers to Arab infants to homeless folks in shelters to seniors in assisted-living facilities. How does the organization decide which books to record or to translate into Braille? “It’s hard to learn Braille after childhood, so most of our Braille materials are songbooks for camps, specific requests for children going to Hebrew school, and liturgical and scholarly materials,” said Ellen Isler, CEO of JBI. “As for audiobooks, I read Publishers Weekly, The [London] Times Literary Supplement, and the Jewish Review of Books to help identify books that will be of interest to our clientele. Then we check to see if they’ve already been recorded by the Library of Congress or by a commercial audiobook publisher like Audible.com, in which case we won’t do them. We have a reciprocal relationship with the Royal Institute for the Blind in London; The Central Library for the Blind, Visually Impaired and Handicapped in Israel; and the CNIB Library in Canada—we’ll share materials.” JBI is part of a program called the National Library Service for the Blind and Visually Handicapped, which the Library of Congress established in 1931. Then in 1996, Rhode Island Sen. John Chafee sponsored legislation that exempted materials for the blind from copyright strictures, which let authorized entities like JBI record and distribute audiobooks free of charge. Back in prehistoric times, those books were on phonograph records the National Library Service sent to its clients. Eventually records gave way to cassette recorders, and then cassette recorders begat the Digital Talking Book Machine (DTBM), an easy-to-use little gadget that even the most technophobic can operate. Audiobooks are stored on flash drives (with a thumb-shaped indentation on top so they can’t be inserted upside down or backward), and the drives and machines are provided free to anyone with visual impairments. Mailing the drives back and forth to the library is also free—there are no postage costs to the library or the book-lover. (That’s especially nice for the seniors enrolled in one of JBI’s hundreds of Talking Book Clubs in South Florida, held at JCCs, senior centers, and communities like Century Village. Book Club members get three months of digitized books at a time, as well as a socializing opportunity, a chance to share the pleasures of reading with others, and the incentive to get out of their rooms.) I asked Isler which books are popular with JBI clients. “Anecdotally, they love biographies and mysteries,” she said. Some specific titles currently in heavy circulation are A Tale of Love and Darkness, by Amos Oz; The Fortune Teller’s Kiss, by Brenda Serotte; The Conversion, by Aharon Appelfeld; and Daughter’s Keeper, by Ayelet Waldman. “And, of course, people always request classics such as those by Sholem Aleichem and I.B. Singer,” said Beth Rudich, the organization’s director of development. One of JBI’s most ambitious projects was a collaborative effort with the Jewish Publication Society: recording the entire Hebrew Bible. Completed in 2010, it took 13 readers—including actors Theodore Bikel and Tovah Feldshuh—12 months to do. *** I’d originally heard about JBI from one of my friends inside the computer, Elizabeth Burns, who consults for an NLS library and wrote a fine article about talking-book machines in The Horn Book, a journal of children’s literature. I called JBI hoping to audition as a reader myself. Hey, I read to my kids every night! I acted in college plays! But after seeing JBI’s recording studio, I felt out of my league. The studio is totally slick, with six soundproof booths and a schmancy audio system. I’d expected a homey little operation; indeed, back in the day, the earliest recordings were done at home by Sisterhood members of various temples, as a mitzvah. “In the summer you could hear the traffic of Queens Boulevard through the open windows, and you could just imagine these lovely women sitting at a boomerang table in someone’s kitchen,” reminisced Jane Blecher, the manager of audio production. But today, prospective readers have to audition, and many are working New York City actors. (Authors whose works are selected by JBI are also welcome to come in and read their own works. Leonard Cohen, Blake Eskin, Francine Klagsbrun, Cynthia Ozick, Oliver Sacks, Anne Roiphe, and Hilma Wolitzer have all availed themselves of the opportunity.) From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 19:54:21 2013 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:54:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> Message-ID: Hello- Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. best of luck Carrie Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several > depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one > book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She > seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the > 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the > end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to > raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won > she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in > her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come > across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't > really read it. > > On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >> BS"D >> >> Dear NABS, >> >> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. I've >> chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish children's >> and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where I can rasearch >> information to my thesis, do you know if someone else have written about >> this subject? I think it's a very important subject but since Swedish isn't >> a big language I can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all >> ideas you can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit >> overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! >> >> Kind regards, >> Leye-Shprintse >> >> Envoyé de mon iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Wed Apr 24 22:50:35 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:50:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law Message-ID: Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I just would like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just curious since I’m studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just wondering since I’m still Freshman in college, and I’m not quite there yet in knowing what classes to take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys recommend me to take first? Actually, I’m just now working on completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lrsj89 at aol.com Wed Apr 24 23:03:14 2013 From: lrsj89 at aol.com (lrsj89 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:03:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <665201BD-2460-4BBC-99D6-A67749104470@aol.com> I am not studying law but good luck and god spead Sent from my iPod On Apr 24, 2013, at 6:50 PM, "Helga" wrote: > Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I just would like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just curious since I’m studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just wondering since I’m still Freshman in college, and I’m not quite there yet in knowing what classes to take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys recommend me to take first? Actually, I’m just now working on completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lrsj89%40aol.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 00:02:50 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 20:02:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Helga, Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of help. If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already gone through school and can offer their advice. Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. Hope these help. On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: > Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I just would like to > ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the Law carreer, or > planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just curious since I’m studying > to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in > order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need to > take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books and > materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just wondering since > I’m still Freshman in college, and I’m not quite there yet in knowing what > classes to take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys > recommend me to take first? Actually, I’m just now working on completing my > general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 21:50:17 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:50:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com> <6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> <2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2> <664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAF3C@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> Message-ID: <01b301ce4135$b5ca01b0$215e0510$@gmail.com> Sophie, They're large print, but VoiceOver should be able to read them. If you try this out, please let us know how it works. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books Can these books be read on an IOS device using VoiceOver? Sophie Trist Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > I would recommend taking advantage of the free book option to try it out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon > Keith Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > Are these accessible with screen readers as well? I'm pretty sure if it is a PDF I can get the book's contents some way, but I'd rather have the accessible PDF right off the bat. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Dezman Jackson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:46 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Roger Williamson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM > To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net > Cc: Rehabilitation > Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM > To: Roger Williamson > Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > > If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, Looking for lower > priced ebooks, Or previously visited our website, Here's some good > news > > We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library > and reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now > available for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. > > I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make > available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. > > The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point > in PDF format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also > provide ASCII and Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very > good on a Nook or iPad.) You can go to our website: > www.extralargeprint.org to see the > many publications we have available - many are best sellers. > > Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the > type can be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can > copy and print them without restriction. When printed they retain the large print size. > > More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. > You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or > best-sellers, and receive the book at no cost or obligation. > > Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. > We will promptly email the book to you. > > Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up > a selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or > any word in the book description including an author's name. When you > have decided which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left > of the screen to return to the main menu. > > Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the > top of the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book > offer. There is a link, (in blue) titled > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you > click on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of > the book you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send > you the book by email. > > Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be > assured that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If > you don't want to receive any future mailings from us just reply to this message and say: > "Take me off your list." > > If you have any questions, please call or write: > > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com > Mike Gold, Executive Director > 424.263.2057 > 1602 W. 259 Street > Harbor City, CA 90710 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djackson%40bism.or > g > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 21:41:06 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:41:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books In-Reply-To: References: <000a01ce3c5a$b0f51ce0$12df56a0$@ca.rr.com><6C7BDECF17D4F840BB5D45A1DC571420435228DE@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com><664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAEDB@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com><2EC4009265254FF7AE7B48C3F45459A4@BrandonsLaptop2><664916DD3FF58F45BF6F434E6676E7FB02FAAF3C@BLINDEXCHANGE.BISM.com> Message-ID: <01b101ce4134$6dc9ce50$495d6af0$@gmail.com> Helga, After reading the article, it seems to me as though this foundation only distributes books in large print. If you would like a service which is like the service provided by the Wolf foundation but distributes electronic Braille books, you might try bookshare.org. HTH, Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 6:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books Hi Dezman, this is Helga. What's up? I just would like to ask you, cand this books be printed in Braille format? I was just curious since Braille is my prefer way in reading books. I actually like listen to the books in audio format, and reading at the same time in Braille. Thanks I just would like to know. God bless! :) -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books Can these books be read on an IOS device using VoiceOver? Sophie Trist Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > I would recommend taking advantage of the free book option to try it out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon > Keith Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > Are these accessible with screen readers as well? I'm pretty sure if > it is a PDF I can get the book's contents some way, but I'd rather > have the accessible PDF right off the bat. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Dezman Jackson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:46 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Roger Williamson > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:38 PM > To: debbi107 at Atlanticbb.net > Cc: Rehabilitation > Subject: FW: Accessible, inexpensive books > > > > From: Virginia M. Woolf Foundation [mailto:Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:32 PM > To: Roger Williamson > Subject: Accessible, inexpensive books > > Hello, > > If you are visually impaired or know someone who is, Looking for lower > priced ebooks, Or previously visited our website, Here's some good > news > > We have now completed adding an additional 200 books to our library > and reduced the prices for all our books. Many of our books are now > available for $.99 and most are priced at least 50% below any other source. > > I work with the Virginia M. Woolf Foundation. Our mission is to make > available publications with large type to satisfy special needs. > > The books we offer are displayed in type sizes of 18, 28 or 48 point > in PDF format for reading on a tablet or computer screen. We also > provide ASCII and Kindle compatible versions. (They also look very > good on a Nook or iPad.) You can go to our website: > www.extralargeprint.org to see the > many publications we have available - many are best sellers. > > Although the publications open up in large print, if you wish, the > type can be reduced to make them more comfortable to read. You can > copy and print them without restriction. When printed they retain the > large print size. > > More good news: we continue to offer a fee book to introduce our service. > You can select any one of the books we offer- old favorites or > best-sellers, and receive the book at no cost or obligation. > > Choose a book from our library and reply to this message with your choice. > We will promptly email the book to you. > > Go to our website and select the "Library" button. That will bring up > a selection menu. You can then search for a book by title or genre or > any word in the book description including an author's name. When you > have decided which book you would like, use the arrow on the top left > of the screen to return to the main menu. > > Once back on the main menu, select the "Special Gift" button at the > top of the screen. This will bring up a page describing the free book > offer. > There > is a link, (in blue) titled > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com. If you > click on this link it will start your email system. Type the name of > the book you'd like and send the message. When we get it we will send > you the book by email. > > Thank you for reading this message and considering our offer.. Be > assured that we will not sell or rent your address if you respond. If > you don't want to receive any future mailings from us just reply to > this message and say: > "Take me off your list." > > If you have any questions, please call or write: > > Woolf-Foundation at ca.rr.com > Mike Gold, Executive Director > 424.263.2057 > 1602 W. 259 Street > Harbor City, CA 90710 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djackson%40bism.or > g > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 21:49:07 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:49:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young Writers In-Reply-To: <012901ce4061$fbdaf800$f390e800$@gmail.com> References: <012901ce4061$fbdaf800$f390e800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01b201ce4135$8c5f96f0$a51ec4d0$@gmail.com> Joe, Do you know if this contest is limited to students who live in Illinois? Thanks, Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:35 PM To: 'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS' Subject: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young Writers THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY CARBONDALE http://www.angelfire.com/il/yww/contest.html 2012 Winners: Kate Mirly of Smithton, IL(Prose) Monique Ocanas of Park Forest, IL (Poetry) A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY CARBONDALE A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. Entries accepted during the month of April in the genres of poetry and prose. Prize in each category: $150 and a full tuition scholarship to the 2013 Young Writers Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale. To enter in poetry: send no more than 2 poems (limit of 25 lines each) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. To enter in prose (fiction or essay): send one essay or story (no more 1000 words) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. To enter in both poetry and prose: send no more than 2 poems (limit of 25 lines each) and one essay or story (of no more than 1000 words) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $10. Entries longer than the limits listed above will be returned, along with their entry fees. Entrants must be U.S. citizens or permanent residents. All entries must be typed on white 8 1/2 by 11 inch paper. Do not put your name on your entries. Include a separate cover sheet with the following information on it: your name, home address, phone number, e-mail address, date of birth, and the name and address of your high school. Checks or money orders to cover the entry fee should be made out to SIUC, with "Young Writers Workshop" written in the check's memo line. Please do not send cash. Include a self-addressed stamped envelope for contest results. No entries will be returned, so please keep copies of the work you send. No e-mail or faxed submissions will be accepted. Prizes will be awarded at a ceremony during the annual Young Writers Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale, a five-day, co-ed, residential creative writing workshop for high school sophomores, juniors, and seniors interested in developing their skills in the writing of poetry and prose. If a prizewinner cannot attend the Workshop, the prize will not be awarded to that winner. Travel costs to and from the Workshop are the responsibility of the winner. Previous award winners cannot enter again. The Young Writers Workshop will be held in 2013 from June 25 to June 29, 2013. To enter, send your submissions, postmarked from April 5 to April 30, 2013, to: The Younkin-Rivera Prizes for Young Writers Allison Joseph, Director The Young Writers Workshop Department of English Southern Illinois University Carbondale Faner Hall 2380--Mail Code 4503 1000 Faner Drive Carbondale, IL 69201 Email for Questions only: aljosephATsiuDOTedu Winners will be announced at the end of May 2013. Allison Joseph SIUC Young Writers Workshop Director _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thu Apr 25 00:46:45 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 20:46:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you studying, and what college do you attend? Just wondering. I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of Boca Raton. Thanks so much. -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law Helga, Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of help. If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already gone through school and can offer their advice. Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. Hope these help. On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: > Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I just would like > to > ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the Law carreer, or > planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just curious since I’m > studying > to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in > order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need to > take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books and > materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just wondering since > I’m still Freshman in college, and I’m not quite there yet in knowing what > classes to take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you > guys > recommend me to take first? Actually, I’m just now working on completing > my > general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 21:01:21 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:01:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> Message-ID: You might want to consider broadening your topic to just blind characters in literature. With this you can also include a few more I've remembered. The Giver in Lois Lowry's book of the same name. Haven't read it yet, but I believe one of the main characters goes blind in Jane Eyre, Again, haven't read the entire series, but I know Marilla from Lucy Maude Montgomery's Anne of Green Gables series develops an eye condition and has to restrict herself from reading and doing other eye-strenuous activities. I've read more of the books but since they focused on Anne in her college years Marilla wasn't too common of a topic in terms of blindness. Mary from the Little House on the Prary books, The Country of the Blind by H.G. Wells. I have not read the short story but have listened to a radio play from the 50's. It's a very perplexing story and depiction of blind people. Maximum Ride series by James Patterson has a blind character. The Cay, kind of like Lord of the Flies but the protagonist is blind. Light a Single Candle and The Letter writer, both historical fiction books I believe, have not read either yet though. The Window, kind of deals with a girl's adjustment to blindness in the emotional sense. Great book. The Gathering Blue, the sequel to The Giver. Pretty Little Liars has a blind girl in it. there are plenty of characters out there, but I'm not sure how many of them would fit into your search criteria as it is now. Blind characters are all over the map in literature though. On 4/24/13, Carrie Gilmer wrote: > Hello- > Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, > over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they > both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from > childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person > until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. > best of luck > Carrie > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >> really read it. >> >> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>> BS"D >>> >>> Dear NABS, >>> >>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. I've >>> chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>> children's >>> and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where I can rasearch >>> information to my thesis, do you know if someone else have written about >>> this subject? I think it's a very important subject but since Swedish >>> isn't >>> a big language I can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all >>> ideas you can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit >>> overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Leye-Shprintse >>> >>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kathrynwebster at me.com Thu Apr 25 01:21:49 2013 From: kathrynwebster at me.com (Kathryn Webster) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:21:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ctabs Message-ID: Hey y'all! Anyone have any idea what the phone number is for the ct tabss conference call? Thanks in advance! -Kate Sent from my iPhone From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 25 01:48:34 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:48:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga wrote: > Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind > lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my school, but > she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and she is not really > good help with my general classes that I'm taking right now even though she > gives me accomodations letters to give to my professors. Is your adviser a > regular adviser, or a disability adviser? Just curious. Do you think I > should talk to a regular adviser, not a disability? By the way, What > carreer are you studying, and what college do you attend? Just wondering. > I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of Boca > Raton. Thanks so much. > > -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law > > Helga, > > Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of help. > If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop NFB > lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find the > blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law students > on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a more > direct way of reaching them and other people who have already gone > through school and can offer their advice. > Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your > pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take > classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult > with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next > semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm on > track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my > chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask > him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. > > Hope these help. > > On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: > >> Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I just would like >> to >> ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the Law carreer, or >> planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just curious since I’m >> studying >> to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in >> order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need to >> take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books and >> materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just wondering since >> I’m still Freshman in college, and I’m not quite there yet in knowing what >> classes to take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you >> guys >> recommend me to take first? Actually, I’m just now working on completing >> my >> general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu > From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 01:36:39 2013 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 20:36:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young Writers In-Reply-To: <01b201ce4135$8c5f96f0$a51ec4d0$@gmail.com> References: <012901ce4061$fbdaf800$f390e800$@gmail.com> <01b201ce4135$8c5f96f0$a51ec4d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris after browsing this message, it says that it is a nation wide contest. I think that this is a great opportunity for anybody interested. Tamika On 4/24/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Joe, > > Do you know if this contest is limited to students who live in Illinois? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:35 PM > To: 'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS' > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young Writers > > THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY > CARBONDALE http://www.angelfire.com/il/yww/contest.html > 2012 Winners: Kate Mirly of Smithton, IL(Prose) > > Monique Ocanas of Park Forest, IL (Poetry) > > A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. > > THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY > CARBONDALE > > A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. Entries accepted > during the month of April in the genres of poetry and prose. Prize in each > category: $150 and a full tuition scholarship to the 2013 Young Writers > Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale. > > To enter in poetry: send no more than 2 poems (limit of 25 lines each) per > entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. > > To enter in prose (fiction or essay): send one essay or story (no more 1000 > words) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. > > To enter in both poetry and prose: send no more than 2 poems (limit of 25 > lines each) and one essay or story (of no more than 1000 words) per > entrant, > along with an entry fee of $10. Entries longer than the limits listed above > will be returned, along with their entry fees. Entrants must be U.S. > citizens or permanent residents. > > All entries must be typed on white 8 1/2 by 11 inch paper. Do not put your > name on your entries. Include a separate cover sheet with the following > information on it: your name, home address, phone number, e-mail address, > date of birth, and the name and address of your high school. Checks or > money > orders to cover the entry fee should be made out to SIUC, with "Young > Writers Workshop" written in the check's memo line. Please do not send > cash. > Include a self-addressed stamped envelope for contest results. No entries > will be returned, so please keep copies of the work you send. No e-mail or > faxed submissions will be accepted. > > Prizes will be awarded at a ceremony during the annual Young Writers > Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale, a five-day, co-ed, > residential creative writing workshop for high school sophomores, juniors, > and seniors interested in developing their skills in the writing of poetry > and prose. If a prizewinner cannot attend the Workshop, the prize will not > be awarded to that winner. Travel costs to and from the Workshop are the > responsibility of the winner. Previous award winners cannot enter again. > > > The Young Writers Workshop will be held in 2013 from June 25 to June 29, > 2013. > > To enter, send your submissions, postmarked from April 5 to April 30, 2013, > to: > > The Younkin-Rivera Prizes for Young Writers Allison Joseph, Director > > The Young Writers Workshop > > Department of English > > Southern Illinois University Carbondale > > Faner Hall 2380--Mail Code 4503 > > 1000 Faner Drive > > Carbondale, IL 69201 > > Email for Questions only: aljosephATsiuDOTedu > > Winners will be announced at the end of May 2013. > > Allison Joseph > SIUC Young Writers Workshop Director > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 03:23:47 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 23:23:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Helga, Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability coordinator, who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. She's great, but like other disability services personelle across the board at colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give me advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared yourself as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your college within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. If you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like business, human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then you'd want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, letting them know that you want to persue law school after completing your undergrad from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he has the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic requirements. Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot of your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over things each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your schedule on your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss other questions throughout the year as needed. Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of their majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I kind of know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a separate advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music therapy uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know the full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he advises for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. Hope that helps. Good luck. Kaiti, Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges make > you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga wrote: > >> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my school, >> but >> she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and she is not >> really >> good help with my general classes that I'm taking right now even though >> she >> gives me accomodations letters to give to my professors. Is your adviser >> a >> regular adviser, or a disability adviser? Just curious. Do you think I >> should talk to a regular adviser, not a disability? By the way, What >> carreer are you studying, and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of Boca >> Raton. Thanks so much. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >> >> Helga, >> >> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of help. >> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop NFB >> lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find the >> blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law students >> on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a more >> direct way of reaching them and other people who have already gone >> through school and can offer their advice. >> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm on >> track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >> >> Hope these help. >> >> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >> >>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I just would like >>> to >>> ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the Law carreer, >>> or >>> planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just curious since I’m >>> studying >>> to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in >>> order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need >>> to >>> take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books and >>> materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just wondering >>> since >>> I’m still Freshman in college, and I’m not quite there yet in knowing >>> what >>> classes to take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you >>> guys >>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I’m just now working on completing >>> my >>> general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thu Apr 25 05:51:54 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 01:51:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic Univercity) because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my ASsociates of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak to an English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer plans? I was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law Hi Helga, Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability coordinator, who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. She's great, but like other disability services personelle across the board at colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give me advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared yourself as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your college within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. If you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like business, human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then you'd want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, letting them know that you want to persue law school after completing your undergrad from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he has the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic requirements. Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot of your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over things each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your schedule on your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss other questions throughout the year as needed. Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of their majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I kind of know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a separate advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music therapy uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know the full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he advises for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. Hope that helps. Good luck. Kaiti, Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges make > you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga > wrote: > >> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my school, >> but >> she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and she is not >> really >> good help with my general classes that I'm taking right now even though >> she >> gives me accomodations letters to give to my professors. Is your adviser >> a >> regular adviser, or a disability adviser? Just curious. Do you think I >> should talk to a regular adviser, not a disability? By the way, What >> carreer are you studying, and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of Boca >> Raton. Thanks so much. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >> >> Helga, >> >> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of help. >> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop NFB >> lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find the >> blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law students >> on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a more >> direct way of reaching them and other people who have already gone >> through school and can offer their advice. >> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm on >> track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >> >> Hope these help. >> >> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >> >>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I just would like >>> to >>> ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the Law carreer, >>> or >>> planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just curious since I’m >>> studying >>> to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in >>> order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need >>> to >>> take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books and >>> materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just wondering >>> since >>> I’m still Freshman in college, and I’m not quite there yet in knowing >>> what >>> classes to take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you >>> guys >>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I’m just now working on completing >>> my >>> general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 06:00:32 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 02:00:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> Go get them. Good luck. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic Univercity) because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my ASsociates of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak to an English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer plans? I was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law Hi Helga, Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability coordinator, who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. She's great, but like other disability services personelle across the board at colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give me advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared yourself as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your college within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. If you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like business, human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then you'd want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, letting them know that you want to persue law school after completing your undergrad from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he has the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic requirements. Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot of your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over things each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your schedule on your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss other questions throughout the year as needed. Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of their majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I kind of know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a separate advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music therapy uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know the full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he advises for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. Hope that helps. Good luck. Kaiti, Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges > make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga > wrote: > >> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my >> school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and >> she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking >> right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to >> my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability >> adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular >> adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you studying, >> and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >> >> Helga, >> >> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of help. >> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a >> more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already >> gone through school and can offer their advice. >> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm >> on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >> >> Hope these help. >> >> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >> >>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just would >>> like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the >>> Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just >>> curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you >>> handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what >>> kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete >>> this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in >>> order to study for it? I was just wondering since I'm still Freshman >>> in college, and I'm not quite there yet in knowing what classes to >>> take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys >>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on >>> completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40as >> u.edu> asu.edu> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 06:44:10 2013 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 01:44:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam In-Reply-To: References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE25C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE27C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: Zeeshan, If I were you I would not give up on that CPA Exam. You have went this far to make it through school, please put the right study tools in place and continue with the exam if that is your will. Will you keep us updated on your progress? I am going to school for Business and I am strongly thinking about concentrating in Accounting but I am kind of unsure about it. Tamika On 3/21/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Zunaira, > I'm just curious; when you say "the technical standards make it nearly > impossible to get in if you are visually impaired" what do you mean > by that? Do you believe that the Florida med schools have > discriminatory policies? Or do they require you to use technology > that is inaccessible? > BTW, you and I were fellow members of the NFB 2003 scholarship class, > and both pre-medsters (though I, too, have gone in a different > direction). > Arielle > > On 3/20/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >> I actually ended up doing a masters program instead and have never >> looked back at med school. I wanted to be a psychiatrist, but couldn't >> apply to schools in Florida because the technical standards make it >> nearly impossible to get in if you are visually impaired. I didn't want >> to go out of state after getting married and purchasing a home, so I did >> grad school instead. >> Zunaira >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >> Khan >> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:15 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >> >> Thats great that you did well on hte mcat. So how do you like med >> school? >> Yes, i did get extended time. I felt the material was too much and I >> didn't take breaks during the exam itself, which made my eyes tired. I >> understood the material, this time around, I think I will be more >> strategic about it. >> >> -Zeeshan >> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >> >> wrote: >> >>> I haven't taken the CPA exam, but I did take the MCAT in 2006 and did >>> pretty well on it. The most helpful accommodation with that exam was >>> extended time. Did you get extended time on the CPA exam? Why do you >>> feel you didn't pass? Did you understand the material? >>> Zunaira >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >>> Khan >>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> So I went to school for accounting and sat for the CPA exam in 2011 >>> for both the BEC and Auditing parts, but I did not pass. After that I >>> stopped and didn't pursue it further. But now I feel that I have left >>> it incomplete and want to go back to the CPA exams and reattempt it >>> and hopefully pass it this time. So here are my questions / conerns. >>> >>> 1. How long did it take to pass being visually impaired? >>> >>> 2. What programs / resources did you use? I have used Roger CPA, but I >> >>> beleive his stuff expires after a bit? Is Becker really that good? >>> >>> 3. How long did u spend studying for each part? >>> >>> 4. Do you have a job now after having passed it? >>> >>> 5. How much did you study each day? >>> >>> 6. How did you study? took a live course, studied on your own, got a >>> tutor ? >>> >>> 7. Is it worth the effort and time, especially give the fact that I am >> >>> legally blind, it is much mroe difficult studying for it? >>> >>> I look forward to hearing all of your experiences. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Zeeshan Khan >>> >>> ToiBooks >>> www.toibooks.com >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Zeeshan Khan >> >> ToiBooks >> www.toibooks.com >> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 06:54:41 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 02:54:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam In-Reply-To: References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE25C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE27C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <00ae01ce40b8$996b76c0$cc426440$@gmail.com> There is a Blind CPpa somewhere on the nfb resource site. I remember seeing him there. I do not remember his name. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamika Williams Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:44 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam Zeeshan, If I were you I would not give up on that CPA Exam. You have went this far to make it through school, please put the right study tools in place and continue with the exam if that is your will. Will you keep us updated on your progress? I am going to school for Business and I am strongly thinking about concentrating in Accounting but I am kind of unsure about it. Tamika On 3/21/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Zunaira, > I'm just curious; when you say "the technical standards make it nearly > impossible to get in if you are visually impaired" what do you mean > by that? Do you believe that the Florida med schools have > discriminatory policies? Or do they require you to use technology > that is inaccessible? > BTW, you and I were fellow members of the NFB 2003 scholarship class, > and both pre-medsters (though I, too, have gone in a different > direction). > Arielle > > On 3/20/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >> I actually ended up doing a masters program instead and have never >> looked back at med school. I wanted to be a psychiatrist, but >> couldn't apply to schools in Florida because the technical standards >> make it nearly impossible to get in if you are visually impaired. I >> didn't want to go out of state after getting married and purchasing a >> home, so I did grad school instead. >> Zunaira >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >> Khan >> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:15 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >> >> Thats great that you did well on hte mcat. So how do you like med >> school? >> Yes, i did get extended time. I felt the material was too much and I >> didn't take breaks during the exam itself, which made my eyes tired. >> I understood the material, this time around, I think I will be more >> strategic about it. >> >> -Zeeshan >> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >> >> wrote: >> >>> I haven't taken the CPA exam, but I did take the MCAT in 2006 and did >>> pretty well on it. The most helpful accommodation with that exam was >>> extended time. Did you get extended time on the CPA exam? Why do >>> you feel you didn't pass? Did you understand the material? >>> Zunaira >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >>> Khan >>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> So I went to school for accounting and sat for the CPA exam in 2011 >>> for both the BEC and Auditing parts, but I did not pass. After that >>> I stopped and didn't pursue it further. But now I feel that I have >>> left it incomplete and want to go back to the CPA exams and >>> reattempt it and hopefully pass it this time. So here are my questions / conerns. >>> >>> 1. How long did it take to pass being visually impaired? >>> >>> 2. What programs / resources did you use? I have used Roger CPA, but >>> I >> >>> beleive his stuff expires after a bit? Is Becker really that good? >>> >>> 3. How long did u spend studying for each part? >>> >>> 4. Do you have a job now after having passed it? >>> >>> 5. How much did you study each day? >>> >>> 6. How did you study? took a live course, studied on your own, got a >>> tutor ? >>> >>> 7. Is it worth the effort and time, especially give the fact that I >>> am >> >>> legally blind, it is much mroe difficult studying for it? >>> >>> I look forward to hearing all of your experiences. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Zeeshan Khan >>> >>> ToiBooks >>> www.toibooks.com >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail. >>> co >>> m >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Zeeshan Khan >> >> ToiBooks >> www.toibooks.com >> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars% > 40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 06:32:27 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 02:32:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Helga, So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk to the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as if I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree advisor might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but it's worth a shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting them know sounds like the first step in the right direction; even as someone with a concentration in English an advisor might be able to steer you towards other classes that might be able to be taken early and transfer over to FAU so you don't have to spend as much or take them twice depending on the circumstances, or they can give you a head start on learning the law material. For example, I know a girl who's a history pre-law major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a try. On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: > Go get them. Good luck. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law > > Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an > English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic Univercity) > because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my ASsociates > of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak to an > English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer plans? I > was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original > Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law > > Hi Helga, > > Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability > coordinator, > who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have > everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has > "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. She's > great, but like other disability services personelle across the board at > colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give me > advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a > meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared > yourself > as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your college > within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. > If > you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like business, > human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then you'd > want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, letting > them know that you want to persue law school after completing your > undergrad > from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he has > the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy > majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic requirements. > Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot of > your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over things > each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because > sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your schedule on > your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss other > questions throughout the year as needed. > > Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know > people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of > their > majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the > mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I kind of > know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a separate > advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych > department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych > department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the > guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music therapy > uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know > the > full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he advises > for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences > with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. > > Hope that helps. Good luck. > > Kaiti, > Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. > > On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges >> make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >>> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my >>> school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and >>> she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking >>> right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to >>> my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability >>> adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular >>> adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you studying, >>> and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >>> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>> >>> Helga, >>> >>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of >>> help. >>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >>> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >>> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >>> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a >>> more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already >>> gone through school and can offer their advice. >>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >>> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >>> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >>> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm >>> on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >>> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >>> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>> >>> Hope these help. >>> >>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>> >>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just would >>>> like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the >>>> Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just >>>> curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you >>>> handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what >>>> kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete >>>> this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in >>>> order to study for it? I was just wondering since I'm still Freshman >>>> in college, and I'm not quite there yet in knowing what classes to >>>> take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys >>>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on >>>> completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>> l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40as >>> u.edu>> asu.edu> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 14:18:02 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:18:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam In-Reply-To: <00ae01ce40b8$996b76c0$cc426440$@gmail.com> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE25C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE27C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <00ae01ce40b8$996b76c0$cc426440$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9205865009828873339@unknownmsgid> I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I do know a blind CPA. Her name is Thera Morning, and she works as an accountant for Blind Industries and Services of Maryland (BISM.) She is always willing to help blind students realize their full potential; indeed, she advises the Maryland student division, and she is an invaluable resource for us. If you would like to contact her, her email is tmorning at bism.org. Hope this helps! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 3:03 AM, justin williams wrote: > There is a Blind CPpa somewhere on the nfb resource site. I remember seeing > him there. I do not remember his name. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamika Williams > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam > > Zeeshan, If I were you I would not give up on that CPA Exam. You have went > this far to make it through school, please put the right study tools in > place and continue with the exam if that is your will. Will you keep us > updated on your progress? I am going to school for Business and I am > strongly thinking about concentrating in Accounting but I am kind of unsure > about it. > > Tamika > > On 3/21/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Zunaira, >> I'm just curious; when you say "the technical standards make it nearly >> impossible to get in if you are visually impaired" what do you mean >> by that? Do you believe that the Florida med schools have >> discriminatory policies? Or do they require you to use technology >> that is inaccessible? >> BTW, you and I were fellow members of the NFB 2003 scholarship class, >> and both pre-medsters (though I, too, have gone in a different >> direction). >> Arielle >> >> On 3/20/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >>> I actually ended up doing a masters program instead and have never >>> looked back at med school. I wanted to be a psychiatrist, but >>> couldn't apply to schools in Florida because the technical standards >>> make it nearly impossible to get in if you are visually impaired. I >>> didn't want to go out of state after getting married and purchasing a >>> home, so I did grad school instead. >>> Zunaira >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >>> Khan >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:15 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>> >>> Thats great that you did well on hte mcat. So how do you like med >>> school? >>> Yes, i did get extended time. I felt the material was too much and I >>> didn't take breaks during the exam itself, which made my eyes tired. >>> I understood the material, this time around, I think I will be more >>> strategic about it. >>> >>> -Zeeshan >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I haven't taken the CPA exam, but I did take the MCAT in 2006 and did >>>> pretty well on it. The most helpful accommodation with that exam was >>>> extended time. Did you get extended time on the CPA exam? Why do >>>> you feel you didn't pass? Did you understand the material? >>>> Zunaira >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >>>> Khan >>>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 7:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> So I went to school for accounting and sat for the CPA exam in 2011 >>>> for both the BEC and Auditing parts, but I did not pass. After that >>>> I stopped and didn't pursue it further. But now I feel that I have >>>> left it incomplete and want to go back to the CPA exams and >>>> reattempt it and hopefully pass it this time. So here are my questions / > conerns. >>>> >>>> 1. How long did it take to pass being visually impaired? >>>> >>>> 2. What programs / resources did you use? I have used Roger CPA, but >>>> I >>> >>>> beleive his stuff expires after a bit? Is Becker really that good? >>>> >>>> 3. How long did u spend studying for each part? >>>> >>>> 4. Do you have a job now after having passed it? >>>> >>>> 5. How much did you study each day? >>>> >>>> 6. How did you study? took a live course, studied on your own, got a >>>> tutor ? >>>> >>>> 7. Is it worth the effort and time, especially give the fact that I >>>> am >>> >>>> legally blind, it is much mroe difficult studying for it? >>>> >>>> I look forward to hearing all of your experiences. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Zeeshan Khan >>>> >>>> ToiBooks >>>> www.toibooks.com >>>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>>> fldoe.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail. >>>> co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Zeeshan Khan >>> >>> ToiBooks >>> www.toibooks.com >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars% >> 40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 14:53:30 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 10:53:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam In-Reply-To: <9205865009828873339@unknownmsgid> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE25C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE27C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <00ae01ce40b8$996b76c0$cc426440$@gmail.com> <9205865009828873339@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <010201ce40fb$7cc3d1a0$764b74e0$@gmail.com> The individual trying to pass his CPA may want too. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:18 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I do know a blind CPA. Her name is Thera Morning, and she works as an accountant for Blind Industries and Services of Maryland (BISM.) She is always willing to help blind students realize their full potential; indeed, she advises the Maryland student division, and she is an invaluable resource for us. If you would like to contact her, her email is tmorning at bism.org. Hope this helps! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 3:03 AM, justin williams wrote: > There is a Blind CPpa somewhere on the nfb resource site. I remember > seeing him there. I do not remember his name. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamika > Williams > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam > > Zeeshan, If I were you I would not give up on that CPA Exam. You have > went this far to make it through school, please put the right study > tools in place and continue with the exam if that is your will. Will > you keep us updated on your progress? I am going to school for > Business and I am strongly thinking about concentrating in Accounting > but I am kind of unsure about it. > > Tamika > > On 3/21/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Zunaira, >> I'm just curious; when you say "the technical standards make it >> nearly impossible to get in if you are visually impaired" what do >> you mean by that? Do you believe that the Florida med schools have >> discriminatory policies? Or do they require you to use technology >> that is inaccessible? >> BTW, you and I were fellow members of the NFB 2003 scholarship class, >> and both pre-medsters (though I, too, have gone in a different >> direction). >> Arielle >> >> On 3/20/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >>> I actually ended up doing a masters program instead and have never >>> looked back at med school. I wanted to be a psychiatrist, but >>> couldn't apply to schools in Florida because the technical standards >>> make it nearly impossible to get in if you are visually impaired. I >>> didn't want to go out of state after getting married and purchasing >>> a home, so I did grad school instead. >>> Zunaira >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >>> Khan >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:15 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>> >>> Thats great that you did well on hte mcat. So how do you like med >>> school? >>> Yes, i did get extended time. I felt the material was too much and I >>> didn't take breaks during the exam itself, which made my eyes tired. >>> I understood the material, this time around, I think I will be more >>> strategic about it. >>> >>> -Zeeshan >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I haven't taken the CPA exam, but I did take the MCAT in 2006 and did >>>> pretty well on it. The most helpful accommodation with that exam was >>>> extended time. Did you get extended time on the CPA exam? Why do >>>> you feel you didn't pass? Did you understand the material? >>>> Zunaira >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Zeeshan Khan >>>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 7:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> So I went to school for accounting and sat for the CPA exam in 2011 >>>> for both the BEC and Auditing parts, but I did not pass. After that >>>> I stopped and didn't pursue it further. But now I feel that I have >>>> left it incomplete and want to go back to the CPA exams and >>>> reattempt it and hopefully pass it this time. So here are my >>>> questions / > conerns. >>>> >>>> 1. How long did it take to pass being visually impaired? >>>> >>>> 2. What programs / resources did you use? I have used Roger CPA, >>>> but I >>> >>>> beleive his stuff expires after a bit? Is Becker really that good? >>>> >>>> 3. How long did u spend studying for each part? >>>> >>>> 4. Do you have a job now after having passed it? >>>> >>>> 5. How much did you study each day? >>>> >>>> 6. How did you study? took a live course, studied on your own, got >>>> a tutor ? >>>> >>>> 7. Is it worth the effort and time, especially give the fact that I >>>> am >>> >>>> legally blind, it is much mroe difficult studying for it? >>>> >>>> I look forward to hearing all of your experiences. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Zeeshan Khan >>>> >>>> ToiBooks >>>> www.toibooks.com >>>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>>> fldoe.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail. >>>> co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Zeeshan Khan >>> >>> ToiBooks >>> www.toibooks.com >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars >> % >> 40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Thu Apr 25 16:50:31 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:50:31 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] CIS Classes Message-ID: Hi all. I have to take a CIS class, in the Fall. How accessible is the software used in this class, and how much visual stuff is involved? I know I'll have to do powerpoints, but is that all I'll have to do, that requires sighted assistance? I'm kind of wanting to know what to expect. Thanks, Joshua From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 17:01:30 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 11:01:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] CIS Classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a question first and foremost for your instructor. We don't know what course you're taking or what curriculum your college uses. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi all. > I have to take a CIS class, in the Fall. > How accessible is the software used in this class, and how much visual stuff is involved? > I know I'll have to do powerpoints, but is that all I'll have to do, that requires sighted assistance? > I'm kind of wanting to know what to expect. > Thanks, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Thu Apr 25 17:21:51 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 17:21:51 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] CIS Classes In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: This instructor has given me problems in the past, because she isn't very approachable. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of blackbyrdfly at gmail.com [blackbyrdfly at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CIS Classes This is a question first and foremost for your instructor. We don't know what course you're taking or what curriculum your college uses. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi all. > I have to take a CIS class, in the Fall. > How accessible is the software used in this class, and how much visual stuff is involved? > I know I'll have to do powerpoints, but is that all I'll have to do, that requires sighted assistance? > I'm kind of wanting to know what to expect. > Thanks, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From tyler at tysdomain.com Thu Apr 25 17:29:35 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 11:29:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] CIS Classes In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <517967FF.2000207@tysdomain.com> That really doesn't matter, you can't just say I'm taking a CIS class and expect us to know what class. There are a lot of classes that fall under CIS. On 4/25/2013 11:21 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > This instructor has given me problems in the past, because she isn't very approachable. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of blackbyrdfly at gmail.com [blackbyrdfly at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CIS Classes > > This is a question first and foremost for your instructor. We don't know what course you're taking or what curriculum your college uses. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 25, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Hi all. >> I have to take a CIS class, in the Fall. >> How accessible is the software used in this class, and how much visual stuff is involved? >> I know I'll have to do powerpoints, but is that all I'll have to do, that requires sighted assistance? >> I'm kind of wanting to know what to expect. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Apr 25 17:32:47 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:32:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] CIS Classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it a intro to computers, intro to programming? You should be able to see what boks were used in the past which may tell you what software will be required. On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > This instructor has given me problems in the past, because she isn't very > approachable. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of > blackbyrdfly at gmail.com [blackbyrdfly at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CIS Classes > > This is a question first and foremost for your instructor. We don't know > what course you're taking or what curriculum your college uses. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 25, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > > Hi all. > > I have to take a CIS class, in the Fall. > > How accessible is the software used in this class, and how much visual > stuff is involved? > > I know I'll have to do powerpoints, but is that all I'll have to do, > that requires sighted assistance? > > I'm kind of wanting to know what to expect. > > Thanks, Joshua > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 17:50:16 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:50:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] CIS Classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Every college program is different to, so even if someone were to say, "I had no trouble at all with any of my CIS courses on here," that doesn't mean it will be the same way at any other school. You really need to get in touch with that instructor. If she's not approachable try being a little more persistent. Schedule an appointment with her either on the phone or in person, preferably the latter. If she's still tricky to get information out of then try asking the department head who might know. Don't taddle on the professor, just say that you're having trouble getting information you need and ask if they know. If it persists disability services may be able to help and get the professors to understand that it's important for you to know this information. On 4/25/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > Is it a intro to computers, intro to programming? You should be able to see > what boks were used in the past which may tell you what software will be > required. > > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> This instructor has given me problems in the past, because she isn't very >> approachable. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of >> blackbyrdfly at gmail.com [blackbyrdfly at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:01 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CIS Classes >> >> This is a question first and foremost for your instructor. We don't know >> what course you're taking or what curriculum your college uses. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 25, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Joshua Lester >> wrote: >> >> > Hi all. >> > I have to take a CIS class, in the Fall. >> > How accessible is the software used in this class, and how much visual >> stuff is involved? >> > I know I'll have to do powerpoints, but is that all I'll have to do, >> that requires sighted assistance? >> > I'm kind of wanting to know what to expect. >> > Thanks, Joshua >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From jsoro620 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 22:55:49 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:55:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: <517740b5.47e6ec0a.500f.6530@mx.google.com> References: <517740b5.47e6ec0a.500f.6530@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <019201ce4208$07aad1d0$17007570$@gmail.com> Sorry, as a P.S., ABBYY Finereader is great, but no software is going to do a decent job at handwritten recognition. The technology is not there just yet.--Joe From jsoro620 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 23:00:26 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:00:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> Message-ID: <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Hello- Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. best of luck Carrie Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several > depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one > book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She > seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the > 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the > end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to > raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won > she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in > her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come > across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't > really read it. > > On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >> BS"D >> >> Dear NABS, >> >> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! >> >> Kind regards, >> Leye-Shprintse >> >> Envoyé de mon iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm > ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 22:01:42 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam In-Reply-To: <010201ce40fb$7cc3d1a0$764b74e0$@gmail.com> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE25C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF2081DE27C@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <00ae01ce40b8$996b76c0$cc426440$@gmail.com> <9205865009828873339@unknownmsgid> <010201ce40fb$7cc3d1a0$764b74e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005401ce4200$78dd8620$6a989260$@gmail.com> That's correct. Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 10:54 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam The individual trying to pass his CPA may want too. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:18 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I do know a blind CPA. Her name is Thera Morning, and she works as an accountant for Blind Industries and Services of Maryland (BISM.) She is always willing to help blind students realize their full potential; indeed, she advises the Maryland student division, and she is an invaluable resource for us. If you would like to contact her, her email is tmorning at bism.org. Hope this helps! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 3:03 AM, justin williams wrote: > There is a Blind CPpa somewhere on the nfb resource site. I remember > seeing him there. I do not remember his name. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamika > Williams > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam > > Zeeshan, If I were you I would not give up on that CPA Exam. You have > went this far to make it through school, please put the right study > tools in place and continue with the exam if that is your will. Will > you keep us updated on your progress? I am going to school for > Business and I am strongly thinking about concentrating in Accounting > but I am kind of unsure about it. > > Tamika > > On 3/21/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Zunaira, >> I'm just curious; when you say "the technical standards make it >> nearly impossible to get in if you are visually impaired" what do >> you mean by that? Do you believe that the Florida med schools have >> discriminatory policies? Or do they require you to use technology >> that is inaccessible? >> BTW, you and I were fellow members of the NFB 2003 scholarship class, >> and both pre-medsters (though I, too, have gone in a different >> direction). >> Arielle >> >> On 3/20/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >>> I actually ended up doing a masters program instead and have never >>> looked back at med school. I wanted to be a psychiatrist, but >>> couldn't apply to schools in Florida because the technical standards >>> make it nearly impossible to get in if you are visually impaired. I >>> didn't want to go out of state after getting married and purchasing >>> a home, so I did grad school instead. >>> Zunaira >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan >>> Khan >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:15 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>> >>> Thats great that you did well on hte mcat. So how do you like med >>> school? >>> Yes, i did get extended time. I felt the material was too much and I >>> didn't take breaks during the exam itself, which made my eyes tired. >>> I understood the material, this time around, I think I will be more >>> strategic about it. >>> >>> -Zeeshan >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I haven't taken the CPA exam, but I did take the MCAT in 2006 and did >>>> pretty well on it. The most helpful accommodation with that exam was >>>> extended time. Did you get extended time on the CPA exam? Why do >>>> you feel you didn't pass? Did you understand the material? >>>> Zunaira >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Zeeshan Khan >>>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 7:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The CPA Exam >>>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> So I went to school for accounting and sat for the CPA exam in 2011 >>>> for both the BEC and Auditing parts, but I did not pass. After that >>>> I stopped and didn't pursue it further. But now I feel that I have >>>> left it incomplete and want to go back to the CPA exams and >>>> reattempt it and hopefully pass it this time. So here are my >>>> questions / > conerns. >>>> >>>> 1. How long did it take to pass being visually impaired? >>>> >>>> 2. What programs / resources did you use? I have used Roger CPA, >>>> but I >>> >>>> beleive his stuff expires after a bit? Is Becker really that good? >>>> >>>> 3. How long did u spend studying for each part? >>>> >>>> 4. Do you have a job now after having passed it? >>>> >>>> 5. How much did you study each day? >>>> >>>> 6. How did you study? took a live course, studied on your own, got >>>> a tutor ? >>>> >>>> 7. Is it worth the effort and time, especially give the fact that I >>>> am >>> >>>> legally blind, it is much mroe difficult studying for it? >>>> >>>> I look forward to hearing all of your experiences. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Zeeshan Khan >>>> >>>> ToiBooks >>>> www.toibooks.com >>>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>>> fldoe.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail. >>>> co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Zeeshan Khan >>> >>> ToiBooks >>> www.toibooks.com >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars >> % >> 40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 01:07:00 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:07:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might also talk to a history or political science advisor to see if they've worked with pre-law students before and what classes they would recommend. (I'm guessing many law students start out in political science, right?) If you're planning to transfer to a four-year university after getting an A.A. degree, it might not much matter what your A.A. is in, but like Kaiti said there might be classes you can take at the A.A. phase to help you get a head start on pre-law requirements. Arielle On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Helga, > > So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then > transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? > I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an > associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk to > the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as if > I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree advisor > might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but it's worth a > shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting them know sounds > like the first step in the right direction; even as someone with a > concentration in English an advisor might be able to steer you towards > other classes that might be able to be taken early and transfer over > to FAU so you don't have to spend as much or take them twice depending > on the circumstances, or they can give you a head start on learning > the law material. For example, I know a girl who's a history pre-law > major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. > Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a > try. > > On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: >> Go get them. Good luck. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >> >> Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an >> English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic Univercity) >> because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my >> ASsociates >> of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak to >> an >> English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer plans? >> I >> was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original >> Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >> >> Hi Helga, >> >> Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability >> coordinator, >> who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have >> everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has >> "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. She's >> great, but like other disability services personelle across the board at >> colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give me >> advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a >> meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared >> yourself >> as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your college >> within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. >> If >> you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like business, >> human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then you'd >> want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, letting >> them know that you want to persue law school after completing your >> undergrad >> from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he >> has >> the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy >> majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic >> requirements. >> Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot of >> your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over things >> each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because >> sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your schedule >> on >> your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss other >> questions throughout the year as needed. >> >> Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know >> people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of >> their >> majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the >> mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I kind >> of >> know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a >> separate >> advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych >> department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych >> department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the >> guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music therapy >> uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know >> the >> full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he >> advises >> for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences >> with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. >> >> Hope that helps. Good luck. >> >> Kaiti, >> Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. >> >> On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges >>> make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >>>> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my >>>> school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and >>>> she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking >>>> right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to >>>> my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability >>>> adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular >>>> adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you studying, >>>> and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >>>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >>>> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>> >>>> Helga, >>>> >>>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of >>>> help. >>>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >>>> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >>>> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >>>> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a >>>> more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already >>>> gone through school and can offer their advice. >>>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >>>> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >>>> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >>>> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm >>>> on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >>>> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >>>> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>>> >>>> Hope these help. >>>> >>>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just would >>>>> like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the >>>>> Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just >>>>> curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you >>>>> handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what >>>>> kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete >>>>> this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in >>>>> order to study for it? I was just wondering since I'm still Freshman >>>>> in college, and I'm not quite there yet in knowing what classes to >>>>> take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys >>>>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on >>>>> completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>>> l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40as >>>> u.edu>>> asu.edu> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 02:07:01 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:07:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> Arielle, The way I understand it, law schools don't really care what your undergraduate degree is. If anything, I've been encouraged to stay away from things like history and political science if I want to go to law school, most people I've talked to seemed to think law schools appreciate more diversity nowadays. So, the way I've heard it, your undergraduate major doesn't matter nearly as much as how well you perform in whatever major you choose. You might want to think about majors that would give you practical experience similar to what you would be doing in the field of law. For example, an English major might get you used to riding large papers, which is an integral part of being a lawyer. A philosophy major would teach you all about how to make logical arguments Which are internally consistent And valid… Obviously, that would be invaluable preparation for law. For that matter, something like a communications major would give you public speaking experience, as well as teach you how to present your case is effectively… If you wanted to be one of those lawyers who actually argue in court, this could be very helpful. Majors like economics, business, accounting and the light could be incredible ass sex if you wanted to do corporate or financial wall later on. For that matter, the mental work out you would get from something like engineering or mathematics would serve you well later on. So, if you want to go to law school, I would say pick a major that you like and do very well with it. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > You might also talk to a history or political science advisor to see > if they've worked with pre-law students before and what classes they > would recommend. (I'm guessing many law students start out in > political science, right?) If you're planning to transfer to a > four-year university after getting an A.A. degree, it might not much > matter what your A.A. is in, but like Kaiti said there might be > classes you can take at the A.A. phase to help you get a head start on > pre-law requirements. > Arielle > > On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi Helga, >> >> So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then >> transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? >> I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an >> associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk to >> the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as if >> I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree advisor >> might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but it's worth a >> shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting them know sounds >> like the first step in the right direction; even as someone with a >> concentration in English an advisor might be able to steer you towards >> other classes that might be able to be taken early and transfer over >> to FAU so you don't have to spend as much or take them twice depending >> on the circumstances, or they can give you a head start on learning >> the law material. For example, I know a girl who's a history pre-law >> major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. >> Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a >> try. >> >> On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Go get them. Good luck. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>> >>> Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an >>> English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic Univercity) >>> because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my >>> ASsociates >>> of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak to >>> an >>> English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer plans? >>> I >>> was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original >>> Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>> >>> Hi Helga, >>> >>> Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability >>> coordinator, >>> who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have >>> everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has >>> "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. She's >>> great, but like other disability services personelle across the board at >>> colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give me >>> advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a >>> meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared >>> yourself >>> as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your college >>> within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. >>> If >>> you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like business, >>> human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then you'd >>> want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, letting >>> them know that you want to persue law school after completing your >>> undergrad >>> from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he >>> has >>> the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy >>> majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic >>> requirements. >>> Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot of >>> your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over things >>> each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because >>> sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your schedule >>> on >>> your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss other >>> questions throughout the year as needed. >>> >>> Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know >>> people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of >>> their >>> majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the >>> mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I kind >>> of >>> know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a >>> separate >>> advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych >>> department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych >>> department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the >>> guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music therapy >>> uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know >>> the >>> full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he >>> advises >>> for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences >>> with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. >>> >>> Hope that helps. Good luck. >>> >>> Kaiti, >>> Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. >>> >>> On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges >>>> make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >>>>> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my >>>>> school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and >>>>> she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking >>>>> right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to >>>>> my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability >>>>> adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular >>>>> adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you studying, >>>>> and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >>>>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >>>>> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>> >>>>> Helga, >>>>> >>>>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of >>>>> help. >>>>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >>>>> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >>>>> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >>>>> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a >>>>> more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already >>>>> gone through school and can offer their advice. >>>>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>>>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >>>>> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >>>>> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >>>>> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm >>>>> on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >>>>> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >>>>> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>>>> >>>>> Hope these help. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just would >>>>>> like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the >>>>>> Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just >>>>>> curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you >>>>>> handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what >>>>>> kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete >>>>>> this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in >>>>>> order to study for it? I was just wondering since I'm still Freshman >>>>>> in college, and I'm not quite there yet in knowing what classes to >>>>>> take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys >>>>>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on >>>>>> completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>>>> l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40as >>>>> u.edu>>>> asu.edu> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 03:11:36 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 23:11:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001b01ce4162$99b046b0$cd10d410$@gmail.com> Just take the prelaw classes as the electives along with your major. If you want good public speaking skills, join a toastmasters club. I no a lawyer who actually did that; she was in my club. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law Arielle, The way I understand it, law schools don't really care what your undergraduate degree is. If anything, I've been encouraged to stay away from things like history and political science if I want to go to law school, most people I've talked to seemed to think law schools appreciate more diversity nowadays. So, the way I've heard it, your undergraduate major doesn't matter nearly as much as how well you perform in whatever major you choose. You might want to think about majors that would give you practical experience similar to what you would be doing in the field of law. For example, an English major might get you used to riding large papers, which is an integral part of being a lawyer. A philosophy major would teach you all about how to make logical arguments Which are internally consistent And valid… Obviously, that would be invaluable preparation for law. For that matter, something like a communications major would give you public speaking experience, as well as teach you how to present your case is effectively… If you wanted to be one of those lawyers who actually argue in court, this could be very helpful. Majors like economics, business, accounting and the light could be incredible ass sex if you wanted to do corporate or financial wall later on. For that matter, the mental work out you would get from something like engineering or mathematics would serve you well later on. So, if you want to go to law school, I would say pick a major that you like and do very well with it. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > You might also talk to a history or political science advisor to see > if they've worked with pre-law students before and what classes they > would recommend. (I'm guessing many law students start out in > political science, right?) If you're planning to transfer to a > four-year university after getting an A.A. degree, it might not much > matter what your A.A. is in, but like Kaiti said there might be > classes you can take at the A.A. phase to help you get a head start on > pre-law requirements. > Arielle > > On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi Helga, >> >> So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then >> transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? >> I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an >> associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk >> to the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as >> if I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree advisor >> might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but it's worth a >> shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting them know sounds >> like the first step in the right direction; even as someone with a >> concentration in English an advisor might be able to steer you >> towards other classes that might be able to be taken early and >> transfer over to FAU so you don't have to spend as much or take them >> twice depending on the circumstances, or they can give you a head >> start on learning the law material. For example, I know a girl who's >> a history pre-law major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. >> Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a >> try. >> >> On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Go get them. Good luck. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>> >>> Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing >>> an English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic >>> Univercity) because in Palm Beach State College I still need to >>> complete my ASsociates of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do >>> you think I should speak to an English department adviser in order >>> to tell him or her my carreer plans? >>> I >>> was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original >>> Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>> >>> Hi Helga, >>> >>> Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability >>> coordinator, who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes >>> sure I have everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT >>> department has "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the >>> information. She's great, but like other disability services >>> personelle across the board at colleges that's what she specializes >>> in. She wouldn't be able to give me advice on my major because >>> that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a meeting with an advisor >>> for your major. If you've already declared yourself as pre-law, you >>> should be able to go to that department or your college within the >>> university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. >>> If >>> you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like >>> business, human rights, international studies, history, psychology, >>> etc, then you'd want to go to that department and start with that >>> advisor first, letting them know that you want to persue law school >>> after completing your undergrad from the get go. My advisor, for >>> example, is a music therapist, so he has the background and >>> experience to advise me and the other music therapy majors on what >>> steps to take in order to fulfill our academic requirements. >>> Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a >>> lot of your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go >>> over things each time before you schedule new classes which is >>> really nice because sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when >>> trying to plan your schedule on your own. Most advisors are also >>> free by email or phone to discuss other questions throughout the >>> year as needed. >>> >>> Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I >>> know people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for >>> each of their majors, and those advisors can communicate with each >>> other through the mutual student to make sure all the requirements >>> are being met. I kind of know how this works to an extent, because >>> although I don't have a separate advisor for my psych minor I still >>> have to make sure I follow the psych department guidelines and get >>> in touch with someone who is a psych department advisor in case I'm >>> confused or need clarification on the guidelines for getting the >>> minor. This is because although music therapy uses a lot of psych, >>> it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know the full ins and >>> outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he advises for. >>> I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences >>> with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. >>> >>> Hope that helps. Good luck. >>> >>> Kaiti, >>> Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. >>> >>> On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most >>>> colleges make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the >>>>> Blind lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at >>>>> my school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law >>>>> classes, and she is not really good help with my general classes >>>>> that I'm taking right now even though she gives me accomodations >>>>> letters to give to my professors. Is your adviser a regular >>>>> adviser, or a disability adviser? Just curious. Do you think I >>>>> should talk to a regular adviser, not a disability? By the way, >>>>> What carreer are you studying, and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >>>>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >>>>> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>> >>>>> Helga, >>>>> >>>>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be >>>>> of help. >>>>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >>>>> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >>>>> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >>>>> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably >>>>> be a more direct way of reaching them and other people who have >>>>> already gone through school and can offer their advice. >>>>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>>>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to >>>>> take classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always >>>>> consult with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make >>>>> sure my next semester courses are what they should be, but also to >>>>> make sure I'm on track for the future. Since he's been there and >>>>> done that in my chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him >>>>> because I can ask him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>>>> >>>>> Hope these help. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just >>>>>> would like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are >>>>>> studying the Law carreer, or planning to study to become a >>>>>> Lawyer? I was just curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. >>>>>> Also, How do you handle your books and materials in order to >>>>>> study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking or need to >>>>>> take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read your books >>>>>> and materials in Braille in order to study for it? I was just >>>>>> wondering since I'm still Freshman in college, and I'm not quite >>>>>> there yet in knowing what classes to take in order to achieve >>>>>> this future carreer. What class you guys recommend me to take >>>>>> first? Actually, I'm just now working on completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>>>> bs- l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%4 >>>>> 0as >>>>> u.edu>>>> %40 >>>>> asu.edu> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet1 >>>> 04% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber% >>> 40hotmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet10 >>> 4%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 03:04:55 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:04:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Yes, I even have heard that some lawyers specialize in technology law. They primarily work in areas like the Cilicon Valley in California (Sorry... I've written too many papers as of late and can't figure out how to spell things any more), but just about everything has a practical application. Heck, I know a pre-med major who is considering acutally going into medical law instead of becoming a doctor, so just about anything goes as long as you do it well. On 4/25/13, Kirt wrote: > Arielle, The way I understand it, law schools don't really care what your > undergraduate degree is. If anything, I've been encouraged to stay away from > things like history and political science if I want to go to law school, > most people I've talked to seemed to think law schools appreciate more > diversity nowadays. So, the way I've heard it, your undergraduate major > doesn't matter nearly as much as how well you perform in whatever major you > choose. You might want to think about majors that would give you practical > experience similar to what you would be doing in the field of law. For > example, an English major might get you used to riding large papers, which > is an integral part of being a lawyer. A philosophy major would teach you > all about how to make logical arguments Which are internally consistent And > valid… Obviously, that would be invaluable preparation for law. For that > matter, something like a communications major would give you public speaking > experience, as well as teach you how to present your case is effectively… If > you wanted to be one of those lawyers who actually argue in court, this > could be very helpful. Majors like economics, business, accounting and the > light could be incredible ass sex if you wanted to do corporate or financial > wall later on. For that matter, the mental work out you would get from > something like engineering or mathematics would serve you well later on. So, > if you want to go to law school, I would say pick a major that you like and > do very well with it. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 25, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> You might also talk to a history or political science advisor to see >> if they've worked with pre-law students before and what classes they >> would recommend. (I'm guessing many law students start out in >> political science, right?) If you're planning to transfer to a >> four-year university after getting an A.A. degree, it might not much >> matter what your A.A. is in, but like Kaiti said there might be >> classes you can take at the A.A. phase to help you get a head start on >> pre-law requirements. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi Helga, >>> >>> So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then >>> transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? >>> I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an >>> associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk to >>> the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as if >>> I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree advisor >>> might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but it's worth a >>> shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting them know sounds >>> like the first step in the right direction; even as someone with a >>> concentration in English an advisor might be able to steer you towards >>> other classes that might be able to be taken early and transfer over >>> to FAU so you don't have to spend as much or take them twice depending >>> on the circumstances, or they can give you a head start on learning >>> the law material. For example, I know a girl who's a history pre-law >>> major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. >>> Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a >>> try. >>> >>> On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> Go get them. Good luck. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>> >>>> Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an >>>> English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic Univercity) >>>> because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my >>>> ASsociates >>>> of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak to >>>> an >>>> English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer plans? >>>> I >>>> was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original >>>> Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>> >>>> Hi Helga, >>>> >>>> Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability >>>> coordinator, >>>> who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have >>>> everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has >>>> "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. >>>> She's >>>> great, but like other disability services personelle across the board at >>>> colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give >>>> me >>>> advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up a >>>> meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared >>>> yourself >>>> as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your college >>>> within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. >>>> If >>>> you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like >>>> business, >>>> human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then >>>> you'd >>>> want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, letting >>>> them know that you want to persue law school after completing your >>>> undergrad >>>> from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he >>>> has >>>> the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy >>>> majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic >>>> requirements. >>>> Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot >>>> of >>>> your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over things >>>> each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because >>>> sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your schedule >>>> on >>>> your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss >>>> other >>>> questions throughout the year as needed. >>>> >>>> Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know >>>> people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of >>>> their >>>> majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the >>>> mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I kind >>>> of >>>> know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a >>>> separate >>>> advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych >>>> department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych >>>> department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the >>>> guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music >>>> therapy >>>> uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to know >>>> the >>>> full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he >>>> advises >>>> for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my experiences >>>> with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. >>>> >>>> Hope that helps. Good luck. >>>> >>>> Kaiti, >>>> Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. >>>> >>>> On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges >>>>> make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >>>>>> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my >>>>>> school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and >>>>>> she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking >>>>>> right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to >>>>>> my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability >>>>>> adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular >>>>>> adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you studying, >>>>>> and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >>>>>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >>>>>> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>>> >>>>>> Helga, >>>>>> >>>>>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of >>>>>> help. >>>>>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >>>>>> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >>>>>> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >>>>>> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be a >>>>>> more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already >>>>>> gone through school and can offer their advice. >>>>>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>>>>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >>>>>> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >>>>>> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >>>>>> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm >>>>>> on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >>>>>> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >>>>>> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope these help. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just would >>>>>>> like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the >>>>>>> Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just >>>>>>> curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you >>>>>>> handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what >>>>>>> kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete >>>>>>> this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in >>>>>>> order to study for it? I was just wondering since I'm still Freshman >>>>>>> in college, and I'm not quite there yet in knowing what classes to >>>>>>> take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys >>>>>>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on >>>>>>> completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>>>>> l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40as >>>>>> u.edu>>>>> asu.edu> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kaybaycar at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 03:51:20 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 22:51:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: > Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in > Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show did > produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact > name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about > the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature > > Hello- > Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, > over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they > both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from > childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person > until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. > best of luck > Carrie > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >> really read it. >> >> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>> BS"D >>> >>> Dear NABS, >>> >>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad >>> English! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Leye-Shprintse >>> >>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>> %40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >> ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From jsoro620 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 22:54:56 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:54:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019101ce4207$e84874f0$b8d95ed0$@gmail.com> Hi, go with ABBYY Finereader. It's a mainstream off-the-shelf product, is a lot cheaper than the assistive options, and works ten times better than Kurzweil or Openbook ever will.--Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil Hi Jane, Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: > I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle > hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because > han-writing is so different for every one. > > Jane > > > > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >> if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For >> example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >> anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >> documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >> information on this devise. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 03:38:51 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:38:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> Message-ID: Agreed. Toastmasters, debate team, Academic bowl, or anything along those lines would be great for an aspiring lawyer to get involved in. Debate would be great if you wanted to practice forming arguments and rebuttles, and aside from being fun academic bowl teams really help you get fast at recalling facts. Also, some schools have mock trial teams or classes you can sign up for, so I'd definitely check if your school has one or the other. On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > One of the things I think would really be beneficial for you is if you > sit down with your advisor and formulate a plan. My department > requires everyone to make a plan at least for the duration of time > they're in school there, some choose to plan further ahead like for > grad school or internships from the start. This plan mapps out short > and long term goals, the skills you want to master, and the courses > you need to take to fulfill all your requirements. You can tick these > off as you go and you're supposed to update your list to make it more > precise as things change. In theory, your list should shrink in time > as the number of requirements to complete decreases, but your goals > should become much more specific and from there you can start planning > further ahead. For example, since I'm now done with Freshman year I > have a three year plan, plus a list of possible internship sites I > might want to keep an eye on for later. I can see the things I've > improved on over this year as well as the things I want to work on, > and used the planning sheet to keep myself on track for scheduling > next semester. It's a great way to keep yourself on track and > organized. You can do this on your own if you're comfortable just > perusing your school web sites for the information, but since you're > looking more long term to an undergrad degree and law school I think > it would be great to do some of this with an advisor's input, or map > something out and let them know what you think and see how that stacks > up. > > Good luck. > > On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Yes, I even have heard that some lawyers specialize in technology law. >> They primarily work in areas like the Cilicon Valley in California >> (Sorry... I've written too many papers as of late and can't figure out >> how to spell things any more), but just about everything has a >> practical application. Heck, I know a pre-med major who is >> considering acutally going into medical law instead of becoming a >> doctor, so just about anything goes as long as you do it well. >> >> On 4/25/13, Kirt wrote: >>> Arielle, The way I understand it, law schools don't really care what >>> your >>> undergraduate degree is. If anything, I've been encouraged to stay away >>> from >>> things like history and political science if I want to go to law school, >>> most people I've talked to seemed to think law schools appreciate more >>> diversity nowadays. So, the way I've heard it, your undergraduate major >>> doesn't matter nearly as much as how well you perform in whatever major >>> you >>> choose. You might want to think about majors that would give you >>> practical >>> experience similar to what you would be doing in the field of law. For >>> example, an English major might get you used to riding large papers, >>> which >>> is an integral part of being a lawyer. A philosophy major would teach >>> you >>> all about how to make logical arguments Which are internally consistent >>> And >>> valid… Obviously, that would be invaluable preparation for law. For >>> that >>> matter, something like a communications major would give you public >>> speaking >>> experience, as well as teach you how to present your case is >>> effectively… >>> If >>> you wanted to be one of those lawyers who actually argue in court, this >>> could be very helpful. Majors like economics, business, accounting and >>> the >>> light could be incredible ass sex if you wanted to do corporate or >>> financial >>> wall later on. For that matter, the mental work out you would get from >>> something like engineering or mathematics would serve you well later on. >>> So, >>> if you want to go to law school, I would say pick a major that you like >>> and >>> do very well with it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 25, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>>> You might also talk to a history or political science advisor to see >>>> if they've worked with pre-law students before and what classes they >>>> would recommend. (I'm guessing many law students start out in >>>> political science, right?) If you're planning to transfer to a >>>> four-year university after getting an A.A. degree, it might not much >>>> matter what your A.A. is in, but like Kaiti said there might be >>>> classes you can take at the A.A. phase to help you get a head start on >>>> pre-law requirements. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>> Hi Helga, >>>>> >>>>> So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then >>>>> transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? >>>>> I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an >>>>> associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk to >>>>> the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as if >>>>> I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree advisor >>>>> might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but it's worth a >>>>> shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting them know sounds >>>>> like the first step in the right direction; even as someone with a >>>>> concentration in English an advisor might be able to steer you towards >>>>> other classes that might be able to be taken early and transfer over >>>>> to FAU so you don't have to spend as much or take them twice depending >>>>> on the circumstances, or they can give you a head start on learning >>>>> the law material. For example, I know a girl who's a history pre-law >>>>> major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. >>>>> Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a >>>>> try. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Go get them. Good luck. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>>> >>>>>> Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an >>>>>> English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic >>>>>> Univercity) >>>>>> because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my >>>>>> ASsociates >>>>>> of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak >>>>>> to >>>>>> an >>>>>> English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer >>>>>> plans? >>>>>> I >>>>>> was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original >>>>>> Message----- >>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Helga, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability >>>>>> coordinator, >>>>>> who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have >>>>>> everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department >>>>>> has >>>>>> "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. >>>>>> She's >>>>>> great, but like other disability services personelle across the board >>>>>> at >>>>>> colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to >>>>>> give >>>>>> me >>>>>> advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up >>>>>> a >>>>>> meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared >>>>>> yourself >>>>>> as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your >>>>>> college >>>>>> within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that >>>>>> is. >>>>>> If >>>>>> you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like >>>>>> business, >>>>>> human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then >>>>>> you'd >>>>>> want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, >>>>>> letting >>>>>> them know that you want to persue law school after completing your >>>>>> undergrad >>>>>> from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so >>>>>> he >>>>>> has >>>>>> the background and experience to advise me and the other music >>>>>> therapy >>>>>> majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic >>>>>> requirements. >>>>>> Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a >>>>>> lot >>>>>> of >>>>>> your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over >>>>>> things >>>>>> each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice >>>>>> because >>>>>> sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your >>>>>> schedule >>>>>> on >>>>>> your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss >>>>>> other >>>>>> questions throughout the year as needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I >>>>>> know >>>>>> people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each >>>>>> of >>>>>> their >>>>>> majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through >>>>>> the >>>>>> mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I >>>>>> kind >>>>>> of >>>>>> know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a >>>>>> separate >>>>>> advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the >>>>>> psych >>>>>> department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych >>>>>> department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the >>>>>> guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music >>>>>> therapy >>>>>> uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to >>>>>> know >>>>>> the >>>>>> full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he >>>>>> advises >>>>>> for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my >>>>>> experiences >>>>>> with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope that helps. Good luck. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kaiti, >>>>>> Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most >>>>>>> colleges >>>>>>> make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the >>>>>>>> Blind >>>>>>>> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my >>>>>>>> school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking >>>>>>>> right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to >>>>>>>> my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability >>>>>>>> adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular >>>>>>>> adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you >>>>>>>> studying, >>>>>>>> and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >>>>>>>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >>>>>>>> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Helga, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of >>>>>>>> help. >>>>>>>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >>>>>>>> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >>>>>>>> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >>>>>>>> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already >>>>>>>> gone through school and can offer their advice. >>>>>>>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>>>>>>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >>>>>>>> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >>>>>>>> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my >>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm >>>>>>>> on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >>>>>>>> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can >>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hope these help. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just would >>>>>>>>> like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the >>>>>>>>> Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just >>>>>>>>> curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you >>>>>>>>> handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to >>>>>>>>> complete >>>>>>>>> this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in >>>>>>>>> order to study for it? I was just wondering since I'm still >>>>>>>>> Freshman >>>>>>>>> in college, and I'm not quite there yet in knowing what classes to >>>>>>>>> take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys >>>>>>>>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on >>>>>>>>> completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>>>>>>> l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40as >>>>>>>> u.edu>>>>>>> asu.edu> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 03:14:18 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:14:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> Message-ID: One of the things I think would really be beneficial for you is if you sit down with your advisor and formulate a plan. My department requires everyone to make a plan at least for the duration of time they're in school there, some choose to plan further ahead like for grad school or internships from the start. This plan mapps out short and long term goals, the skills you want to master, and the courses you need to take to fulfill all your requirements. You can tick these off as you go and you're supposed to update your list to make it more precise as things change. In theory, your list should shrink in time as the number of requirements to complete decreases, but your goals should become much more specific and from there you can start planning further ahead. For example, since I'm now done with Freshman year I have a three year plan, plus a list of possible internship sites I might want to keep an eye on for later. I can see the things I've improved on over this year as well as the things I want to work on, and used the planning sheet to keep myself on track for scheduling next semester. It's a great way to keep yourself on track and organized. You can do this on your own if you're comfortable just perusing your school web sites for the information, but since you're looking more long term to an undergrad degree and law school I think it would be great to do some of this with an advisor's input, or map something out and let them know what you think and see how that stacks up. Good luck. On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Yes, I even have heard that some lawyers specialize in technology law. > They primarily work in areas like the Cilicon Valley in California > (Sorry... I've written too many papers as of late and can't figure out > how to spell things any more), but just about everything has a > practical application. Heck, I know a pre-med major who is > considering acutally going into medical law instead of becoming a > doctor, so just about anything goes as long as you do it well. > > On 4/25/13, Kirt wrote: >> Arielle, The way I understand it, law schools don't really care what your >> undergraduate degree is. If anything, I've been encouraged to stay away >> from >> things like history and political science if I want to go to law school, >> most people I've talked to seemed to think law schools appreciate more >> diversity nowadays. So, the way I've heard it, your undergraduate major >> doesn't matter nearly as much as how well you perform in whatever major >> you >> choose. You might want to think about majors that would give you >> practical >> experience similar to what you would be doing in the field of law. For >> example, an English major might get you used to riding large papers, >> which >> is an integral part of being a lawyer. A philosophy major would teach you >> all about how to make logical arguments Which are internally consistent >> And >> valid… Obviously, that would be invaluable preparation for law. For that >> matter, something like a communications major would give you public >> speaking >> experience, as well as teach you how to present your case is effectively… >> If >> you wanted to be one of those lawyers who actually argue in court, this >> could be very helpful. Majors like economics, business, accounting and >> the >> light could be incredible ass sex if you wanted to do corporate or >> financial >> wall later on. For that matter, the mental work out you would get from >> something like engineering or mathematics would serve you well later on. >> So, >> if you want to go to law school, I would say pick a major that you like >> and >> do very well with it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 25, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >> >>> You might also talk to a history or political science advisor to see >>> if they've worked with pre-law students before and what classes they >>> would recommend. (I'm guessing many law students start out in >>> political science, right?) If you're planning to transfer to a >>> four-year university after getting an A.A. degree, it might not much >>> matter what your A.A. is in, but like Kaiti said there might be >>> classes you can take at the A.A. phase to help you get a head start on >>> pre-law requirements. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi Helga, >>>> >>>> So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then >>>> transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? >>>> I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an >>>> associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk to >>>> the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as if >>>> I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree advisor >>>> might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but it's worth a >>>> shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting them know sounds >>>> like the first step in the right direction; even as someone with a >>>> concentration in English an advisor might be able to steer you towards >>>> other classes that might be able to be taken early and transfer over >>>> to FAU so you don't have to spend as much or take them twice depending >>>> on the circumstances, or they can give you a head start on learning >>>> the law material. For example, I know a girl who's a history pre-law >>>> major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. >>>> Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a >>>> try. >>>> >>>> On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Go get them. Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>> >>>>> Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing an >>>>> English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic >>>>> Univercity) >>>>> because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my >>>>> ASsociates >>>>> of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think I should speak >>>>> to >>>>> an >>>>> English department adviser in order to tell him or her my carreer >>>>> plans? >>>>> I >>>>> was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) -----Original >>>>> Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>> >>>>> Hi Helga, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability >>>>> coordinator, >>>>> who does all my testing and school accomodations, makes sure I have >>>>> everything I need in terms of textbooks and that the IT department has >>>>> "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get to all the information. >>>>> She's >>>>> great, but like other disability services personelle across the board >>>>> at >>>>> colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be able to give >>>>> me >>>>> advice on my major because that's stuff she doesn't know. I'd set up >>>>> a >>>>> meeting with an advisor for your major. If you've already declared >>>>> yourself >>>>> as pre-law, you should be able to go to that department or your >>>>> college >>>>> within the university whatever it may be called to find out who that >>>>> is. >>>>> If >>>>> you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like >>>>> business, >>>>> human rights, international studies, history, psychology, etc, then >>>>> you'd >>>>> want to go to that department and start with that advisor first, >>>>> letting >>>>> them know that you want to persue law school after completing your >>>>> undergrad >>>>> from the get go. My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he >>>>> has >>>>> the background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy >>>>> majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic >>>>> requirements. >>>>> Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a lot >>>>> of >>>>> your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to go over >>>>> things >>>>> each time before you schedule new classes which is really nice because >>>>> sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when trying to plan your >>>>> schedule >>>>> on >>>>> your own. Most advisors are also free by email or phone to discuss >>>>> other >>>>> questions throughout the year as needed. >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I know >>>>> people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor for each of >>>>> their >>>>> majors, and those advisors can communicate with each other through the >>>>> mutual student to make sure all the requirements are being met. I >>>>> kind >>>>> of >>>>> know how this works to an extent, because although I don't have a >>>>> separate >>>>> advisor for my psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the >>>>> psych >>>>> department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych >>>>> department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on the >>>>> guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although music >>>>> therapy >>>>> uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's responsibility to >>>>> know >>>>> the >>>>> full ins and outs of other majors and minors outside of the one he >>>>> advises >>>>> for. I don't want to make generalizations, but so far in my >>>>> experiences >>>>> with different colleges that's how I've seen it work. >>>>> >>>>> Hope that helps. Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> Kaiti, >>>>> Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most colleges >>>>>> make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the Blind >>>>>>> lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor at my >>>>>>> school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law classes, and >>>>>>> she is not really good help with my general classes that I'm taking >>>>>>> right now even though she gives me accomodations letters to give to >>>>>>> my professors. Is your adviser a regular adviser, or a disability >>>>>>> adviser? Just curious. Do you think I should talk to a regular >>>>>>> adviser, not a disability? By the way, What carreer are you >>>>>>> studying, >>>>>>> and what college do you attend? Just wondering. >>>>>>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College of >>>>>>> Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helga, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be of >>>>>>> help. >>>>>>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or Drop >>>>>>> NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you can find >>>>>>> the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a few law >>>>>>> students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would probably be >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> more direct way of reaching them and other people who have already >>>>>>> gone through school and can offer their advice. >>>>>>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>>>>>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to take >>>>>>> classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always consult >>>>>>> with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make sure my next >>>>>>> semester courses are what they should be, but also to make sure I'm >>>>>>> on track for the future. Since he's been there and done that in my >>>>>>> chosen career too, it's also nice meeting with him because I can ask >>>>>>> him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope these help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just would >>>>>>>> like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are studying the >>>>>>>> Law carreer, or planning to study to become a Lawyer? I was just >>>>>>>> curious since I'm studying to become a Lawyer. Also, How do you >>>>>>>> handle your books and materials in order to study for Law, and what >>>>>>>> kind of classes you are taking or need to take in order to complete >>>>>>>> this carreer? Did you read your books and materials in Braille in >>>>>>>> order to study for it? I was just wondering since I'm still >>>>>>>> Freshman >>>>>>>> in college, and I'm not quite there yet in knowing what classes to >>>>>>>> take in order to achieve this future carreer. What class you guys >>>>>>>> recommend me to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on >>>>>>>> completing my general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>>>>>> l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano%40as >>>>>>> u.edu>>>>>> asu.edu> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 10:59:44 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 06:59:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although this book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it and thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a way that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would like to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a > blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. > But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters > adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind > Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little > more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book > the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a > couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for > Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. > > On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in >> Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show did >> produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact >> name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about >> the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature >> >> Hello- >> Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, >> over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they >> both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from >> childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person >> until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >> best of luck >> Carrie >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >>> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >>> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >>> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >>> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >>> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >>> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >>> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >>> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >>> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >>> really read it. >>> >>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>> BS"D >>>> >>>> Dear NABS, >>>> >>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad >>>> English! >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>> >>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >>> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 12:04:33 2013 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:04:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: <019101ce4207$e84874f0$b8d95ed0$@gmail.com> References: <019101ce4207$e84874f0$b8d95ed0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Do you need a specific scanner to go with this product or will any one work fine? I was told that with Kurzweil you had to use specific scanners that would only work with Kurzweil. Thanks for the suggestion haven't heard of this product before so I'm gonna definitely look into it. Justin On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: > Hi, go with ABBYY Finereader. It's a mainstream off-the-shelf product, is a > lot cheaper than the assistive options, and works ten times better than > Kurzweil or Openbook ever will.--Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:02 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil > > Hi Jane, > > Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to use? I > don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. > > On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >> I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle >> hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because >> han-writing is so different for every one. >> >> Jane >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >>> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >>> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >>> if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For >>> example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >>> anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >>> documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >>> information on this devise. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40g >>> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 12:13:15 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 08:13:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although this book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it and thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a way that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would like to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a > blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. > But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters > adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind > Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little > more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book > the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a > couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for > Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. > > On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in >> Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio >> show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I >> forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like The >> Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for >> ransom.--Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >> Gilmer >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> literature >> >> Hello- >> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >> Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what >> they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind >> character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both >> also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >> best of luck >> Carrie >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >>> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is >>> one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. >>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set >>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. >>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to >>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how >>> she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked >>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is also >>> a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, >>> although I haven't really read it. >>> >>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>> BS"D >>>> >>>> Dear NABS, >>>> >>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if >>>> someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a very >>>> important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't >>>> find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give >>>> me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! >>>> Forgive my bad English! >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>> >>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet1 >>>> 04 >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40 >>> gm >>> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail >> .com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri > Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the > Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only > Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have > eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 11:47:04 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:47:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4617267885677701297@unknownmsgid> Yes, the book is called The Seeing Summer. Great book! Thank you for reminding me about Jenny in the Odyssey series! I loved how Focus on the Family portrayed her as an independent blind person—one of the few in literature and film. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 25, 2013, at 8:47 PM, Joe wrote: > Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature > > Hello- > Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. > best of luck > Carrie > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >> really read it. >> >> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>> BS"D >>> >>> Dear NABS, >>> >>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Leye-Shprintse >>> >>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>> %40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >> ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 11:38:50 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 07:38:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Law In-Reply-To: References: <00a901ce40b1$08967430$19c35c90$@gmail.com> <93EB3EB6-2BF6-4A1D-9316-1FB60E79D641@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004601ce41a9$751d0e40$5f572ac0$@gmail.com> Folks, this is good advice. I wish I would have done that for my career especially when I was a psych major. That's why I am back in school now at thirty-three. Do exactly what she says. It is the best idea ever. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law One of the things I think would really be beneficial for you is if you sit down with your advisor and formulate a plan. My department requires everyone to make a plan at least for the duration of time they're in school there, some choose to plan further ahead like for grad school or internships from the start. This plan mapps out short and long term goals, the skills you want to master, and the courses you need to take to fulfill all your requirements. You can tick these off as you go and you're supposed to update your list to make it more precise as things change. In theory, your list should shrink in time as the number of requirements to complete decreases, but your goals should become much more specific and from there you can start planning further ahead. For example, since I'm now done with Freshman year I have a three year plan, plus a list of possible internship sites I might want to keep an eye on for later. I can see the things I've improved on over this year as well as the things I want to work on, and used the planning sheet to keep myself on track for scheduling next semester. It's a great way to keep yourself on track and organized. You can do this on your own if you're comfortable just perusing your school web sites for the information, but since you're looking more long term to an undergrad degree and law school I think it would be great to do some of this with an advisor's input, or map something out and let them know what you think and see how that stacks up. Good luck. On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Yes, I even have heard that some lawyers specialize in technology law. > They primarily work in areas like the Cilicon Valley in California > (Sorry... I've written too many papers as of late and can't figure out > how to spell things any more), but just about everything has a > practical application. Heck, I know a pre-med major who is > considering acutally going into medical law instead of becoming a > doctor, so just about anything goes as long as you do it well. > > On 4/25/13, Kirt wrote: >> Arielle, The way I understand it, law schools don't really care what >> your undergraduate degree is. If anything, I've been encouraged to >> stay away from things like history and political science if I want to >> go to law school, most people I've talked to seemed to think law >> schools appreciate more diversity nowadays. So, the way I've heard >> it, your undergraduate major doesn't matter nearly as much as how >> well you perform in whatever major you choose. You might want to >> think about majors that would give you practical experience similar >> to what you would be doing in the field of law. For example, an >> English major might get you used to riding large papers, which is an >> integral part of being a lawyer. A philosophy major would teach you >> all about how to make logical arguments Which are internally >> consistent And valid. Obviously, that would be invaluable preparation >> for law. For that matter, something like a communications major >> would give you public speaking experience, as well as teach you how >> to present your case is effectively. If you wanted to be one of those >> lawyers who actually argue in court, this could be very helpful. >> Majors like economics, business, accounting and the light could be >> incredible ass sex if you wanted to do corporate or financial wall >> later on. For that matter, the mental work out you would get from >> something like engineering or mathematics would serve you well later on. >> So, >> if you want to go to law school, I would say pick a major that you >> like and do very well with it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 25, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >> >>> You might also talk to a history or political science advisor to see >>> if they've worked with pre-law students before and what classes they >>> would recommend. (I'm guessing many law students start out in >>> political science, right?) If you're planning to transfer to a >>> four-year university after getting an A.A. degree, it might not much >>> matter what your A.A. is in, but like Kaiti said there might be >>> classes you can take at the A.A. phase to help you get a head start >>> on pre-law requirements. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/25/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi Helga, >>>> >>>> So just so I understand, you're working on an associates now, then >>>> transfering to FAU for your undergrad, and then law school after that? >>>> I don't see why it wouldn't help, but I also don't know how an >>>> associates degree would tie in to law school exactly. I would talk >>>> to the English advisor; I'm not sure what they'll be able to do, as >>>> if I'm understanding your plans I think your bachelors degree >>>> advisor might have more to do with the law aspect of things, but >>>> it's worth a shot. Getting set up with your advisor and letting >>>> them know sounds like the first step in the right direction; even >>>> as someone with a concentration in English an advisor might be able >>>> to steer you towards other classes that might be able to be taken >>>> early and transfer over to FAU so you don't have to spend as much >>>> or take them twice depending on the circumstances, or they can give >>>> you a head start on learning the law material. For example, I know >>>> a girl who's a history pre-law major here who's advisor suggested she take Philosophy of Law now. >>>> Slightly different subject, but it makes sense. Give the advisor a >>>> try. >>>> >>>> On 4/24/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Go get them. Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:52 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>> >>>>> Hey Kaiti. this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing >>>>> an English major in order to transfer to FAU (Florida Atlantic >>>>> Univercity) >>>>> because in Palm Beach State College I still need to complete my >>>>> ASsociates of ARTS degree before transfering to FAU. Do you think >>>>> I should speak to an English department adviser in order to tell >>>>> him or her my carreer plans? >>>>> I >>>>> was just wondering. Thank you so much. God bless!! :) >>>>> -----Original >>>>> Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:23 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>> >>>>> Hi Helga, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, Suzanne is right. The way I'm set up I have my disability >>>>> coordinator, who does all my testing and school accomodations, >>>>> makes sure I have everything I need in terms of textbooks and that >>>>> the IT department has "Jaws-proofed," the web sites so I can get >>>>> to all the information. >>>>> She's >>>>> great, but like other disability services personelle across the >>>>> board at colleges that's what she specializes in. She wouldn't be >>>>> able to give me advice on my major because that's stuff she >>>>> doesn't know. I'd set up a meeting with an advisor for your >>>>> major. If you've already declared yourself as pre-law, you should >>>>> be able to go to that department or your college within the >>>>> university whatever it may be called to find out who that is. >>>>> If >>>>> you've declared something else as a lead up to law school, like >>>>> business, human rights, international studies, history, >>>>> psychology, etc, then you'd want to go to that department and >>>>> start with that advisor first, letting them know that you want to >>>>> persue law school after completing your undergrad from the get go. >>>>> My advisor, for example, is a music therapist, so he has the >>>>> background and experience to advise me and the other music therapy >>>>> majors on what steps to take in order to fulfill our academic >>>>> requirements. >>>>> Once you find out who your advisor is you should be able to have a >>>>> lot of your questions explained, and they'll be there for you to >>>>> go over things each time before you schedule new classes which is >>>>> really nice because sometimes they catch mistakes you miss when >>>>> trying to plan your schedule on your own. Most advisors are also >>>>> free by email or phone to discuss other questions throughout the >>>>> year as needed. >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes students will have two advisors though. For example, I >>>>> know people who are double majoring who have a separate advisor >>>>> for each of their majors, and those advisors can communicate with >>>>> each other through the mutual student to make sure all the >>>>> requirements are being met. I kind of know how this works to an >>>>> extent, because although I don't have a separate advisor for my >>>>> psych minor I still have to make sure I follow the psych >>>>> department guidelines and get in touch with someone who is a psych >>>>> department advisor in case I'm confused or need clarification on >>>>> the guidelines for getting the minor. This is because although >>>>> music therapy uses a lot of psych, it really isn't my advisor's >>>>> responsibility to know the full ins and outs of other majors and >>>>> minors outside of the one he advises for. I don't want to make >>>>> generalizations, but so far in my experiences with different >>>>> colleges that's how I've seen it work. >>>>> >>>>> Hope that helps. Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> Kaiti, >>>>> Music Therapy major, University of Dayton class of 2016. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/24/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> You should talk to the adviser of the major you are in. Most >>>>>> colleges make you meet with the adviser before registering for classes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Helga >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Kaiti. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely will join the >>>>>>> Blind lawyers list. Yeah, I actually have a dissability advisor >>>>>>> at my school, but she is not really a good help regarding Law >>>>>>> classes, and she is not really good help with my general classes >>>>>>> that I'm taking right now even though she gives me accomodations >>>>>>> letters to give to my professors. Is your adviser a regular >>>>>>> adviser, or a disability adviser? Just curious. Do you think I >>>>>>> should talk to a regular adviser, not a disability? By the way, >>>>>>> What carreer are you studying, and what college do you attend? >>>>>>> Just wondering. >>>>>>> I'm actually from Florida, and I attend Palmbeach State College >>>>>>> of Boca Raton. Thanks so much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:02 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Studying Law >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helga, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Although I'm not studying law, I may have a few tips that can be >>>>>>> of help. >>>>>>> If you go to nfbnet.org and click the link that says "Join or >>>>>>> Drop NFB lists," the same page where this one was located, you >>>>>>> can find the blindlaw email list. Although there are probably a >>>>>>> few law students on the NABS list somewhere, the law list would >>>>>>> probably be a more direct way of reaching them and other people >>>>>>> who have already gone through school and can offer their advice. >>>>>>> Second, if you have an advisor at your school who knows of your >>>>>>> pre-law plans they should be able to explain the best order to >>>>>>> take classes in and what you'll need to be successful. I always >>>>>>> consult with my advisor well before scheduling not only to make >>>>>>> sure my next semester courses are what they should be, but also >>>>>>> to make sure I'm on track for the future. Since he's been there >>>>>>> and done that in my chosen career too, it's also nice meeting >>>>>>> with him because I can ask him questions and see what he has to say from his experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope these help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/24/13, Helga wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. What's up? I just >>>>>>>> would like to ask you guys a question. How many of you are >>>>>>>> studying the Law carreer, or planning to study to become a >>>>>>>> Lawyer? I was just curious since I'm studying to become a >>>>>>>> Lawyer. Also, How do you handle your books and materials in >>>>>>>> order to study for Law, and what kind of classes you are taking >>>>>>>> or need to take in order to complete this carreer? Did you read >>>>>>>> your books and materials in Braille in order to study for it? I >>>>>>>> was just wondering since I'm still Freshman in college, and I'm >>>>>>>> not quite there yet in knowing what classes to take in order to >>>>>>>> achieve this future carreer. What class you guys recommend me >>>>>>>> to take first? Actually, I'm just now working on completing my >>>>>>>> general classes first. Thanks so much. God bless! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** >>>>>>> helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com>>>>>> nabs- l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org>>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/**sgermano >>>>>>> %40as >>>>>>> u.edu>>>>>> no%40 >>>>>>> asu.edu> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t104% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreibe >>>>> r%40hotmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.william >>>>> s2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 104%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gma >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 06:19:07 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 02:19:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you google "Good Reads" you can find tons of recommendations for books. A lot of the ones in that big list I wrote out came from a Goodreads list called "books with awesome blind characters," I'll post the link to the list if I can find it again, but searching yourself may be bweneficial too as I'm not exactly clear on what you're specifically looking for. Best of luck. On 4/25/13, Julie McGinnity wrote: > There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a > blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. > But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters > adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind > Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little > more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book > the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a > couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for > Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. > > On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in >> Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show >> did >> produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact >> name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about >> the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >> Gilmer >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature >> >> Hello- >> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >> Sweden, >> over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. >> they >> both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere >> from >> childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person >> until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse >> topic. >> best of luck >> Carrie >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >>> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >>> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >>> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >>> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >>> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >>> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >>> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >>> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >>> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >>> really read it. >>> >>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>> BS"D >>>> >>>> Dear NABS, >>>> >>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad >>>> English! >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>> >>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >>> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 13:34:14 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:34:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> Yeah... do you have a book with blind characters that is set in your area? Grin! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:23 AM, justin williams wrote: > Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher > nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature > > I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although this book > is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it and thought the > author did a good job of portraying blind people in a way that didn't evoke > the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the struggles that Natalie (the > main character) goes through while adjusting to her blindness, especially > her anxiety and outright refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a > little bias toward this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the > Blind just down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not > set here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our > national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would like to > read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > >> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters >> adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind >> Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little >> more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book >> the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a >> couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for >> Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >> >> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in >>> Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio >>> show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I >>> forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like The >>> Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for >>> ransom.--Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>> Gilmer >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>> literature >>> >>> Hello- >>> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >>> Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what >>> they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind >>> character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both >>> also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. > ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >>> best of luck >>> Carrie >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >>>> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is >>>> one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. >>>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set >>>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. >>>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to >>>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how >>>> she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked >>>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is also >>>> a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, >>>> although I haven't really read it. >>>> >>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>> BS"D >>>>> >>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>> >>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if >>>>> someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a very >>>>> important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't >>>>> find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give >>>>> me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! >>>>> Forgive my bad English! >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>> >>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet1 >>>>> 04 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40 >>>> gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only >> Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >> eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Apr 26 14:21:48 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:21:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a tricky subject, and I think one should be careful of simple answers. The off-the-shelf products are much cheaper as Joe said, but depending upon the product and the version, the interfaces can be challenging. a knowledgeable computer user should be able to use FineReader or OmniPage and many of us have done that. However, for many, the simpler interfaces of Kurzweil 1000 and Open Book may be worth the extra price, especially if one can justify having it paid for. I think I would try to get a demo of FineReader before deciding for certain that it is for you, unless you feel you are a pretty experienced computer user. Many state agencies are used to paying for Kurzweil or Open Book, and I don't see the down side of going that route if it is available to you. I think you will find that most scanners will work with Kurzweil 1000 or FineReader if they have drivers for the operating system you are using. It is hard for me to imagine that you will find a scanner that would work with Kurzweil that does not work with FineReader or OmniPage. There are older scanners that will not work with Windows 7, and I suspect the same might be true of Windows 8, and this would affect both programs. Finally, in terms of character recognition, Kurzweil gives you the choice of either using the OmniPage or the FineReader recognition "engine" as they call it. In other words, the actual recognition of text is going to be about the same whether you are using Kurzweil or FineReader. Therefore, I think that the claim that FineReader will work ten times better is a bit of an exaggeration. However, that also means that it is fair to say that the high price you pay for something like Kurzweil or Open Book is not for better character recognition but rather for an interface that is easier to use. Is that worth the extra money? To some it is not, but to some it is. The question isn't whether one can use FineReader or OmniPage, the question is rather whether they can use the off-the-shelf products as efficiently as they can use Kurzweil 1000 or Open book, and whether the difference in efficiency is worth it. The answers are different for different people. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:04:33 -0400, Justin Young wrote: >Hi Joe, >Do you need a specific scanner to go with this product or will any one >work fine? I was told that with Kurzweil you had to use specific >scanners that would only work with Kurzweil. Thanks for the >suggestion haven't heard of this product before so I'm gonna >definitely look into it. >Justin >On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> Hi, go with ABBYY Finereader. It's a mainstream off-the-shelf product, is a >> lot cheaper than the assistive options, and works ten times better than >> Kurzweil or Openbook ever will.--Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young >> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil >> >> Hi Jane, >> >> Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to use? I >> don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. >> >> On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >>> I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle >>> hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because >>> han-writing is so different for every one. >>> >>> Jane >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >>>> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >>>> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in hearing >>>> if anyone knew if it handled documents better than Kurzweil? For >>>> example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you can't really do >>>> anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support these types of >>>> documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could provide any >>>> information on this devise. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Justin >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 13:48:08 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 09:48:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> No, we're just not that cool. Big ups to Baltimore. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:34 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Yeah... do you have a book with blind characters that is set in your area? Grin! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:23 AM, justin williams wrote: > Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > literature > > I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although this > book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it and > thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a way > that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the > struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while > adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright > refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward > this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just > down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set > here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our > national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would like to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > >> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters >> adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind >> Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little >> more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book >> the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a >> couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for >> Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >> >> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures >>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the >>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. >>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like >>> The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for >>> ransom.--Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>> Gilmer >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>> literature >>> >>> Hello- >>> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >>> Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what >>> they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind >>> character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and >>> both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. > ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >>> best of luck >>> Carrie >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen >>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. >>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. >>>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set >>>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. >>>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to >>>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how >>>> she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked >>>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is >>>> also a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, >>>> although I haven't really read it. >>>> >>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>> BS"D >>>>> >>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>> >>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know >>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a >>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I >>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you >>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! >>>>> Forgive my bad English! >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>> >>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 1 >>>>> 04 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%4 >>>> 0 >>>> gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmai >>> l >>> .com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only >> Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >> eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From gpaikens at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 19:42:27 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:42:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> Perhaps some more controversial titles would include Blindness by portuguese author Jose Saramago. This was turned into a film a few years ago and caused a stir in our community because the negative ways people behave and respond when a blindness epidemic hits. I have not read the book but the film was quite disturbing. A classic from spanish literature is El Lazarillo de Tornes, the story of a young child who gets hired to lead a blind man around in early medieval Spain. Again, not the most flattering portrayal of blind people. I had to read it for a spanish lit class in college. I know these aren't Swedish or children's literature, but any survey of the topic might want to include negative examples as well as positive ones. On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "justin williams" wrote: > No, we're just not that cool. Big ups to Baltimore. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher > nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:34 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature > > Yeah... do you have a book with blind characters that is set in your area? > Grin! > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:23 AM, justin williams > wrote: > >> Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> literature >> >> I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although this >> book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it and >> thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a way >> that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the >> struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while >> adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright >> refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward >> this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just >> down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set >> here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our >> national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would like > to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> >>> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >>> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >>> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters >>> adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind >>> Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little >>> more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book >>> the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a >>> couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for >>> Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >>> >>> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures >>>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the >>>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. >>>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like >>>> The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for >>>> ransom.--Joe >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>>> Gilmer >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>>> literature >>>> >>>> Hello- >>>> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >>>> Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what >>>> they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind >>>> character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and >>>> both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to > U.S. >> ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >>>> best of luck >>>> Carrie >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen >>>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. >>>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to > school. >>>>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set >>>>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. >>>>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to >>>>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how >>>>> she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked >>>>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is >>>>> also a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, >>>>> although I haven't really read it. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>>> BS"D >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know >>>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a >>>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I >>>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you >>>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit > overwhelmed! >>>>>> Forgive my bad English! >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>>> >>>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>>> 1 >>>>>> 04 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%4 >>>>> 0 >>>>> gm >>>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmai >>>> l >>>> .com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >>> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >>> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only >>> Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>> eternal life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >>> g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 20:35:33 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 16:35:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002301ce42bd$9a45c940$ced15bc0$@gmail.com> Oh yes, I remember the controversy over Blindness. I haven't personally seen the movie or read the book, but I'm not sure if I'd want to. Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg Aikens Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 3:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Perhaps some more controversial titles would include Blindness by portuguese author Jose Saramago. This was turned into a film a few years ago and caused a stir in our community because the negative ways people behave and respond when a blindness epidemic hits. I have not read the book but the film was quite disturbing. A classic from spanish literature is El Lazarillo de Tornes, the story of a young child who gets hired to lead a blind man around in early medieval Spain. Again, not the most flattering portrayal of blind people. I had to read it for a spanish lit class in college. I know these aren't Swedish or children's literature, but any survey of the topic might want to include negative examples as well as positive ones. On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "justin williams" wrote: > No, we're just not that cool. Big ups to Baltimore. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:34 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > literature > > Yeah... do you have a book with blind characters that is set in your area? > Grin! > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:23 AM, justin williams > > wrote: > >> Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> christopher nusbaum >> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> literature >> >> I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although >> this book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it >> and thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a >> way that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the >> struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while >> adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright >> refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward >> this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just >> down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set >> here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our >> national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would >> like > to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> >>> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >>> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >>> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind >>> characters adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my >>> Leader. Blind Sighted is another more recent one. If you want >>> something a little more fantastical, there is a blind character in >>> Libba Bray's new book the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which >>> was made into a movie a couple years ago. But those are more modern >>> and American(except for Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >>> >>> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures >>>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the >>>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. >>>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something >>>> like The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and >>>> held for ransom.--Joe >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>>> Gilmer >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>>> literature >>>> >>>> Hello- >>>> Two of my best friends from college were international students >>>> from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked >>>> them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no >>>> blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, >>>> and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after >>>> coming to > U.S. >> ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >>>> best of luck >>>> Carrie >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen >>>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. >>>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go >>>>> to > school. >>>>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set >>>>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. >>>>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to >>>>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom >>>>> how she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked >>>>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is >>>>> also a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of >>>>> View, although I haven't really read it. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>>> BS"D >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know >>>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a >>>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I >>>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you >>>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit > overwhelmed! >>>>>> Forgive my bad English! >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>>> >>>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>> t >>>>>> 1 >>>>>> 04 >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer% >>>>> 4 >>>>> 0 >>>>> gm >>>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gma >>>> i >>>> l >>>> .com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >>> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >>> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his >>> only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but >>> may have eternal life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%4 >>> 0 >>> g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.c > om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From kingettr at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 20:20:25 2013 From: kingettr at gmail.com (Robert William Kingett) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:20:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] advocacy advice to an grandmother In-Reply-To: <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517AE189.7090906@gmail.com> Let me know your thoughts. Dear xxx. I hope that I got your name right because I have never ever been good with names. I guess it runs in the family. LOL. I want to introduce myself to you. Sam forwarded me your message and it was really moving that I just had to respond personally. I want to introduce what Sam and I do and then I will comment on what you have so truthfully written and I also want to give you my thoughts, based on observation alone. Sam and are both blindness related advocates here in Chicago Illinois. I'm a blind journalist here in Chicago Illinois as well as an advocate for the LGBT community. I'm most known for my journalistic endeavors and I want to tell you something very personal and profound. I've been blind ever since birth and I grew up in a very abusive environment. When you say the word invisible that really struck a chord with me. Even though I have dealt with the abusive past by turning it into positive advocacy energy that one word brought back several memories. I was invisible in both cases, from the blindness side and the domestic violence side, and, I had to find my own way out of it because the school for the blind I was in just didn't care to get involved with such matters. The unusualDCF investigations never went as far as someone from child services coming to our home to investigate only to deem that everything was fine because, even though I did not like my mom, I covered up for her. My troubles at home were invisible to everyone, or so I believed. The truth is that they weren't invisible and someone had noticed. Naturally, they just didn't know what to do. In school I also learned to embrace my blindness because I saw the treatment that we received at a young age. When I was 11, I asked the manager at a restaurant why he didn't have any Braille menus, and why he was breaking the law. He didn't have an answer for me, so I began to ask that question at every restaurant I came to. It was an easy question for me to ask. Why? Because I asked my mom why she broke the law all the time. I was, and still am, a bookworm so I had a lot of questions, based on the stuff I read critically. In high school I found my own way out of the abusive home and that's when I truly learned what independence was and so I began to go around school telling other blind kids what it meant as well. On the academic side of the circle, the Florida school for the deaf and the blind was very good, but anything social skills related, advocacy related, that just flew over their heads. They didn't even tell us what college was going to be like. I had to experience that for myself. I realized that I had a gift and that gift was to string words together to make people listen. I was a writer and I started studying the extent, the power that my gift held. I began writing proposals for a school newspaper that the school had never had and I soon started my own school newspaper. Even at a blind school, the teachers told me that no one would read it. Kids at Saint Augustine high were crawling to pay for the fourth issue. I do have a point to this entire story so just hang in there! LOL. I wasn't invisible anymore but the blindness community was, and I realized this even more after I got out of high school. I'm sure that you have heard about the NFB and ACB and AFB and all of the above and many more. If you haven’t they are blindness advocacy groups that do their own parts in different things. You want to talk about invisible? These groups are invisible. They are just now being heard about in mainstream media regularly. Even now, though, the only people who know about them are blind people. Why? Because there haven’t been any loud voices. Okay, correction, there are loud voices but they are quietly yelling, thinking they will not do anything worthwhile by speaking up. You’re an example of a voice that everyone should listen to. These blind groups would listen but there's a huge problem with these groups, and it's a shame to see the ironic twist, they don't reach out to sighted people for assistance with legal matters, or any other matter, they'd rather stay in their own tents, if you get my drift. Some efforts, not all, but some, are after the media to do stories about them. The NFB and ACB both have a lot to offer but they both don't do a big enough job on their own separately. They do things on a case-by-case basis, and their efforts are to educate the public about the blind and then change comes after the education. Plus, they even fight among one another, and waste energy doing it. All that yelling could have been done to do something better. The ACB people will say they are better, the NFB say that they do the right thing. Never, ever, have they collaborated on anything solid to make a powerful enough standing for change. Education does little good if change isn't implemented but they haven’t realized this yet. They want to say that their group is better than the other rather than make efforts to change the community to better serve the blind. That being said, there's a lot of people who are making a difference. For example, I want to point you to Christine. http://www.christineha.com/ She was a blind MasterChef winner last season. There's a car that's driverless, allowing blind people to be mobile like never before... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car Also, the ACB have managed to get the communications and accessibility act signed by Obama, which will allow all electronic devices, even cell phones to be accessible. http://www.acb.org/adp/tv.html. They are also taking strides to make all paper currency accessible to the blind and the visually impaired. The NFB have done much work on employment. They have done so many things that I'll just give you their website. https://nfb.org/ And people like us, me, Sam, you, and every other small voice out there makes a big difference, even if we don't realize it or see it right away. For instance, I received an email from a woman whose wives, sisters, and friend I helped out years ago. You know how they say that every action has an equal and opposite reaction? Even though the action isn't seen and heard for years, it's an action that will be carried out for sure. For example, the FSDB kids of today now have a paper they can write for because of my simple action three years ago. I'm glad that I made that decision. I do think that we should unite to give the blind a much more stable ground to walk on but I'm just one person. Bigger and better companies and blindness organizations have a lot to fight about that are a lot more important than our wishes and dreams. I'm sorry to say but it's the truth. These blindness groups have a lot of energy to fight each other but that's changing too. That being said, I'm still going to continue to do my small actions of writing and advocacy and standing up for our rights as blind people because I know that somewhere along the line, even after my death, I will have made a powerful impact on someone's life and have made them a better person because I managed to get people talking because an article was published or because I demanded to see a company officer to straighten out an accessibility barrier, gave them some guidance. It's hard to stand up for the right thing because it seems that no one is listening. They are listening. I do believe, however, that this blindness schism is the worst that I've ever seen and it's the dumbest thing ever especially since they both promote inclusion and equality and they can't even include one another. To combat this, the people, not organizations, not the NFB, not the ACB, not the AFB, the people need to change what it means to be blind. We’re doing that. You’re doing that. You’re amazing! We’re amazing! Even though we’re making progress it will take time, as with all great things. Big things come in small packages and voices and efforts. Your small actions towards your granddaughter will be remembered, and appreciated, and used very well even though they may seem as though they are not getting anywhere at the moment they will blossom into something big. People like us just have to continue to be loud positive vocal people who will both advocate and educate for the blind and the visually impaired. We can't rely on just blindness groups because then we will be sitting on our hands talking, taking no action. I just want to say hell yes you’re a good grandmother. She knows Braille; she's standing up for herself. You’re giving her all she needs, even if it's not right now. Even a small ripple can make a big wave. We’re making a big wave, even if that wave won’t come until years later. Our small actions will impact the world, and that's why I do what I do. That’s why I don't give up because no matter how much arguing goes on, ignorance is displayed, services are denied, etc. I know that I have the power to change things. I'm proud to use my particular power of writing to change the world and to change what it means to be blind. You are changing your granddaughter’s world, and someday, she will remember how you changed her world and then she will change other people’s lives and that will be all because of you, xxx, you’re an amazing ripple. Continue to make that wave! From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Apr 26 21:01:41 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:01:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] advocacy advice to an grandmother In-Reply-To: <517AE189.7090906@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> <517AE189.7090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517AEB35.8010607@tysdomain.com> I only have a couple of points. First, I really liked the letter you wrote--I'd just remove the random lol. Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but older people generally don't care for what Lol means and it totally kills your flow here. Second, you're focusing a lot on NFB and ACB fighting among themselves. This might be true, but there are amazing people in both camps. I've been attacked on this list for being part of the ACB, then others don't care because whatever I am part of, as long as I do something somehow to help it doesn't matter. The organizations themselves don't fight, it's mainly the die-hard fans of either camp. While it's not always the case, I've never seen all that much intelligence in the people that attacked me for being part of the ACB to begin with, so if they feel they need to scream at me, I'd rather them do that than say, try to promote fairness by doing something that would make us look worse. You also kind of sound like you're screaming into the wind here with your talk of nothing happening. There is a lot of stuff happening, it's just a very slow process. Your influence as well as everyone elses helps contribute to that bigger picture, even if it's not obvious right now. Just my two cents. On 4/26/2013 2:20 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: > Let me know your thoughts. > > Dear xxx. > > I hope that I got your name right because I have never ever been good > with names. I guess it runs in the family. LOL. > > I want to introduce myself to you. Sam forwarded me your message and > it was really moving that I just had to respond personally. > > I want to introduce what Sam and I do and then I will comment on what > you have so truthfully written and I also want to give you my > thoughts, based on observation alone. Sam and are both blindness > related advocates here in Chicago Illinois. I'm a blind journalist > here in Chicago Illinois as well as an advocate for the LGBT > community. I'm most known for my journalistic endeavors and I want to > tell you something very personal and profound. > > I've been blind ever since birth and I grew up in a very abusive > environment. When you say the word invisible that really struck a > chord with me. Even though I have dealt with the abusive past by > turning it into positive advocacy energy that one word brought back > several memories. I was invisible in both cases, from the blindness > side and the domestic violence side, and, I had to find my own way out > of it because the school for the blind I was in just didn't care to > get involved with such matters. The unusualDCF investigations never > went as far as someone from child services coming to our home to > investigate only to deem that everything was fine because, even though > I did not like my mom, I covered up for her. My troubles at home were > invisible to everyone, or so I believed. The truth is that they > weren't invisible and someone had noticed. Naturally, they just didn't > know what to do. > > In school I also learned to embrace my blindness because I saw the > treatment that we received at a young age. When I was 11, I asked the > manager at a restaurant why he didn't have any Braille menus, and why > he was breaking the law. He didn't have an answer for me, so I began > to ask that question at every restaurant I came to. It was an easy > question for me to ask. Why? Because I asked my mom why she broke the > law all the time. I was, and still am, a bookworm so I had a lot of > questions, based on the stuff I read critically. In high school I > found my own way out of the abusive home and that's when I truly > learned what independence was and so I began to go around school > telling other blind kids what it meant as well. On the academic side > of the circle, the Florida school for the deaf and the blind was very > good, but anything social skills related, advocacy related, that just > flew over their heads. They didn't even tell us what college was going > to be like. I had to experience that for myself. I realized that I had > a gift and that gift was to string words together to make people > listen. I was a writer and I started studying the extent, the power > that my gift held. I began writing proposals for a school newspaper > that the school had never had and I soon started my own school > newspaper. Even at a blind school, the teachers told me that no one > would read it. Kids at Saint Augustine high were crawling to pay for > the fourth issue. > > I do have a point to this entire story so just hang in there! LOL. > > I wasn't invisible anymore but the blindness community was, and I > realized this even more after I got out of high school. I'm sure that > you have heard about the NFB and ACB and AFB and all of the above and > many more. If you haven’t they are blindness advocacy groups that do > their own parts in different things. You want to talk about invisible? > These groups are invisible. They are just now being heard about in > mainstream media regularly. Even now, though, the only people who know > about them are blind people. Why? Because there haven’t been any loud > voices. Okay, correction, there are loud voices but they are quietly > yelling, thinking they will not do anything worthwhile by speaking up. > You’re an example of a voice that everyone should listen to. These > blind groups would listen but there's a huge problem with these > groups, and it's a shame to see the ironic twist, they don't reach out > to sighted people for assistance with legal matters, or any other > matter, they'd rather stay in their own tents, if you get my drift. > Some efforts, not all, but some, are after the media to do stories > about them. The NFB and ACB both have a lot to offer but they both > don't do a big enough job on their own separately. They do things on a > case-by-case basis, and their efforts are to educate the public about > the blind and then change comes after the education. Plus, they even > fight among one another, and waste energy doing it. All that yelling > could have been done to do something better. The ACB people will say > they are better, the NFB say that they do the right thing. Never, > ever, have they collaborated on anything solid to make a powerful > enough standing for change. Education does little good if change isn't > implemented but they haven’t realized this yet. They want to say that > their group is better than the other rather than make efforts to > change the community to better serve the blind. > > That being said, there's a lot of people who are making a difference. > > For example, I want to point you to Christine. > http://www.christineha.com/ > > She was a blind MasterChef winner last season. > > There's a car that's driverless, allowing blind people to be mobile > like never before... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car > > Also, the ACB have managed to get the communications and accessibility > act signed by Obama, which will allow all electronic devices, even > cell phones to be accessible. http://www.acb.org/adp/tv.html. They are > also taking strides to make all paper currency accessible to the blind > and the visually impaired. > > The NFB have done much work on employment. They have done so many > things that I'll just give you their website. https://nfb.org/ > > And people like us, me, Sam, you, and every other small voice out > there makes a big difference, even if we don't realize it or see it > right away. For instance, I received an email from a woman whose > wives, sisters, and friend I helped out years ago. You know how they > say that every action has an equal and opposite reaction? Even though > the action isn't seen and heard for years, it's an action that will be > carried out for sure. For example, the FSDB kids of today now have a > paper they can write for because of my simple action three years ago. > I'm glad that I made that decision. > > I do think that we should unite to give the blind a much more stable > ground to walk on but I'm just one person. Bigger and better companies > and blindness organizations have a lot to fight about that are a lot > more important than our wishes and dreams. I'm sorry to say but it's > the truth. These blindness groups have a lot of energy to fight each > other but that's changing too. That being said, I'm still going to > continue to do my small actions of writing and advocacy and standing > up for our rights as blind people because I know that somewhere along > the line, even after my death, I will have made a powerful impact on > someone's life and have made them a better person because I managed to > get people talking because an article was published or because I > demanded to see a company officer to straighten out an accessibility > barrier, gave them some guidance. It's hard to stand up for the right > thing because it seems that no one is listening. They are listening. I > do believe, however, that this blindness schism is the worst that I've > ever seen and it's the dumbest thing ever especially since they both > promote inclusion and equality and they can't even include one > another. To combat this, the people, not organizations, not the NFB, > not the ACB, not the AFB, the people need to change what it means to > be blind. We’re doing that. You’re doing that. You’re amazing! We’re > amazing! Even though we’re making progress it will take time, as with > all great things. Big things come in small packages and voices and > efforts. > > Your small actions towards your granddaughter will be remembered, and > appreciated, and used very well even though they may seem as though > they are not getting anywhere at the moment they will blossom into > something big. People like us just have to continue to be loud > positive vocal people who will both advocate and educate for the blind > and the visually impaired. We can't rely on just blindness groups > because then we will be sitting on our hands talking, taking no action. > > I just want to say hell yes you’re a good grandmother. She knows > Braille; she's standing up for herself. You’re giving her all she > needs, even if it's not right now. Even a small ripple can make a big > wave. We’re making a big wave, even if that wave won’t come until > years later. Our small actions will impact the world, and that's why I > do what I do. That’s why I don't give up because no matter how much > arguing goes on, ignorance is displayed, services are denied, etc. I > know that I have the power to change things. I'm proud to use my > particular power of writing to change the world and to change what it > means to be blind. You are changing your granddaughter’s world, and > someday, she will remember how you changed her world and then she will > change other people’s lives and that will be all because of you, xxx, > you’re an amazing ripple. Continue to make that wave! > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 21:11:39 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:11:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] advocacy advice to an grandmother In-Reply-To: <517AEB35.8010607@tysdomain.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> <517AE189.7090906@gmail.com> <517AEB35.8010607@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Robert, Would you mind explaining briefly who this grandmother is and what your letter is trying to address to her? Not knowing the whole story, it's hard for me to give feedback. Arielle On 4/26/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > I only have a couple of points. > First, I really liked the letter you wrote--I'd just remove the random > lol. Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but older people generally don't > care for what Lol means and it totally kills your flow here. > Second, you're focusing a lot on NFB and ACB fighting among themselves. > This might be true, but there are amazing people in both camps. I've > been attacked on this list for being part of the ACB, then others don't > care because whatever I am part of, as long as I do something somehow to > help it doesn't matter. > The organizations themselves don't fight, it's mainly the die-hard fans > of either camp. While it's not always the case, I've never seen all that > much intelligence in the people that attacked me for being part of the > ACB to begin with, so if they feel they need to scream at me, I'd rather > them do that than say, try to promote fairness by doing something that > would make us look worse. > > You also kind of sound like you're screaming into the wind here with > your talk of nothing happening. There is a lot of stuff happening, it's > just a very slow process. Your influence as well as everyone elses helps > contribute to that bigger picture, even if it's not obvious right now. > > Just my two cents. > On 4/26/2013 2:20 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Let me know your thoughts. >> >> Dear xxx. >> >> I hope that I got your name right because I have never ever been good >> with names. I guess it runs in the family. LOL. >> >> I want to introduce myself to you. Sam forwarded me your message and >> it was really moving that I just had to respond personally. >> >> I want to introduce what Sam and I do and then I will comment on what >> you have so truthfully written and I also want to give you my >> thoughts, based on observation alone. Sam and are both blindness >> related advocates here in Chicago Illinois. I'm a blind journalist >> here in Chicago Illinois as well as an advocate for the LGBT >> community. I'm most known for my journalistic endeavors and I want to >> tell you something very personal and profound. >> >> I've been blind ever since birth and I grew up in a very abusive >> environment. When you say the word invisible that really struck a >> chord with me. Even though I have dealt with the abusive past by >> turning it into positive advocacy energy that one word brought back >> several memories. I was invisible in both cases, from the blindness >> side and the domestic violence side, and, I had to find my own way out >> of it because the school for the blind I was in just didn't care to >> get involved with such matters. The unusualDCF investigations never >> went as far as someone from child services coming to our home to >> investigate only to deem that everything was fine because, even though >> I did not like my mom, I covered up for her. My troubles at home were >> invisible to everyone, or so I believed. The truth is that they >> weren't invisible and someone had noticed. Naturally, they just didn't >> know what to do. >> >> In school I also learned to embrace my blindness because I saw the >> treatment that we received at a young age. When I was 11, I asked the >> manager at a restaurant why he didn't have any Braille menus, and why >> he was breaking the law. He didn't have an answer for me, so I began >> to ask that question at every restaurant I came to. It was an easy >> question for me to ask. Why? Because I asked my mom why she broke the >> law all the time. I was, and still am, a bookworm so I had a lot of >> questions, based on the stuff I read critically. In high school I >> found my own way out of the abusive home and that's when I truly >> learned what independence was and so I began to go around school >> telling other blind kids what it meant as well. On the academic side >> of the circle, the Florida school for the deaf and the blind was very >> good, but anything social skills related, advocacy related, that just >> flew over their heads. They didn't even tell us what college was going >> to be like. I had to experience that for myself. I realized that I had >> a gift and that gift was to string words together to make people >> listen. I was a writer and I started studying the extent, the power >> that my gift held. I began writing proposals for a school newspaper >> that the school had never had and I soon started my own school >> newspaper. Even at a blind school, the teachers told me that no one >> would read it. Kids at Saint Augustine high were crawling to pay for >> the fourth issue. >> >> I do have a point to this entire story so just hang in there! LOL. >> >> I wasn't invisible anymore but the blindness community was, and I >> realized this even more after I got out of high school. I'm sure that >> you have heard about the NFB and ACB and AFB and all of the above and >> many more. If you haven’t they are blindness advocacy groups that do >> their own parts in different things. You want to talk about invisible? >> These groups are invisible. They are just now being heard about in >> mainstream media regularly. Even now, though, the only people who know >> about them are blind people. Why? Because there haven’t been any loud >> voices. Okay, correction, there are loud voices but they are quietly >> yelling, thinking they will not do anything worthwhile by speaking up. >> You’re an example of a voice that everyone should listen to. These >> blind groups would listen but there's a huge problem with these >> groups, and it's a shame to see the ironic twist, they don't reach out >> to sighted people for assistance with legal matters, or any other >> matter, they'd rather stay in their own tents, if you get my drift. >> Some efforts, not all, but some, are after the media to do stories >> about them. The NFB and ACB both have a lot to offer but they both >> don't do a big enough job on their own separately. They do things on a >> case-by-case basis, and their efforts are to educate the public about >> the blind and then change comes after the education. Plus, they even >> fight among one another, and waste energy doing it. All that yelling >> could have been done to do something better. The ACB people will say >> they are better, the NFB say that they do the right thing. Never, >> ever, have they collaborated on anything solid to make a powerful >> enough standing for change. Education does little good if change isn't >> implemented but they haven’t realized this yet. They want to say that >> their group is better than the other rather than make efforts to >> change the community to better serve the blind. >> >> That being said, there's a lot of people who are making a difference. >> >> For example, I want to point you to Christine. >> http://www.christineha.com/ >> >> She was a blind MasterChef winner last season. >> >> There's a car that's driverless, allowing blind people to be mobile >> like never before... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car >> >> Also, the ACB have managed to get the communications and accessibility >> act signed by Obama, which will allow all electronic devices, even >> cell phones to be accessible. http://www.acb.org/adp/tv.html. They are >> also taking strides to make all paper currency accessible to the blind >> and the visually impaired. >> >> The NFB have done much work on employment. They have done so many >> things that I'll just give you their website. https://nfb.org/ >> >> And people like us, me, Sam, you, and every other small voice out >> there makes a big difference, even if we don't realize it or see it >> right away. For instance, I received an email from a woman whose >> wives, sisters, and friend I helped out years ago. You know how they >> say that every action has an equal and opposite reaction? Even though >> the action isn't seen and heard for years, it's an action that will be >> carried out for sure. For example, the FSDB kids of today now have a >> paper they can write for because of my simple action three years ago. >> I'm glad that I made that decision. >> >> I do think that we should unite to give the blind a much more stable >> ground to walk on but I'm just one person. Bigger and better companies >> and blindness organizations have a lot to fight about that are a lot >> more important than our wishes and dreams. I'm sorry to say but it's >> the truth. These blindness groups have a lot of energy to fight each >> other but that's changing too. That being said, I'm still going to >> continue to do my small actions of writing and advocacy and standing >> up for our rights as blind people because I know that somewhere along >> the line, even after my death, I will have made a powerful impact on >> someone's life and have made them a better person because I managed to >> get people talking because an article was published or because I >> demanded to see a company officer to straighten out an accessibility >> barrier, gave them some guidance. It's hard to stand up for the right >> thing because it seems that no one is listening. They are listening. I >> do believe, however, that this blindness schism is the worst that I've >> ever seen and it's the dumbest thing ever especially since they both >> promote inclusion and equality and they can't even include one >> another. To combat this, the people, not organizations, not the NFB, >> not the ACB, not the AFB, the people need to change what it means to >> be blind. We’re doing that. You’re doing that. You’re amazing! We’re >> amazing! Even though we’re making progress it will take time, as with >> all great things. Big things come in small packages and voices and >> efforts. >> >> Your small actions towards your granddaughter will be remembered, and >> appreciated, and used very well even though they may seem as though >> they are not getting anywhere at the moment they will blossom into >> something big. People like us just have to continue to be loud >> positive vocal people who will both advocate and educate for the blind >> and the visually impaired. We can't rely on just blindness groups >> because then we will be sitting on our hands talking, taking no action. >> >> I just want to say hell yes you’re a good grandmother. She knows >> Braille; she's standing up for herself. You’re giving her all she >> needs, even if it's not right now. Even a small ripple can make a big >> wave. We’re making a big wave, even if that wave won’t come until >> years later. Our small actions will impact the world, and that's why I >> do what I do. That’s why I don't give up because no matter how much >> arguing goes on, ignorance is displayed, services are denied, etc. I >> know that I have the power to change things. I'm proud to use my >> particular power of writing to change the world and to change what it >> means to be blind. You are changing your granddaughter’s world, and >> someday, she will remember how you changed her world and then she will >> change other people’s lives and that will be all because of you, xxx, >> you’re an amazing ripple. Continue to make that wave! >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 21:14:32 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:14:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801ce42c3$0c45f3d0$24d1db70$@gmail.com> LOL! Where are you? Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin williams Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:48 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature No, we're just not that cool. Big ups to Baltimore. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:34 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Yeah... do you have a book with blind characters that is set in your area? Grin! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:23 AM, justin williams wrote: > Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > christopher nusbaum > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > literature > > I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although this > book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it and > thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a way > that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the > struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while > adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright > refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward > this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just > down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set > here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our > national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would > like to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > >> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters >> adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind >> Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little >> more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book >> the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a >> couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for >> Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >> >> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures >>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the >>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. >>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like >>> The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for >>> ransom.--Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>> Gilmer >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>> literature >>> >>> Hello- >>> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >>> Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what >>> they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind >>> character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and >>> both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming >>> to U.S. > ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >>> best of luck >>> Carrie >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen >>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. >>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go >>>> to school. >>>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set >>>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. >>>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to >>>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how >>>> she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked >>>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is >>>> also a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, >>>> although I haven't really read it. >>>> >>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>> BS"D >>>>> >>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>> >>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know >>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a >>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I >>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you >>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! >>>>> Forgive my bad English! >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>> >>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 1 >>>>> 04 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%4 >>>> 0 >>>> gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmai >>> l >>> .com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only >> Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >> eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 21:30:01 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:30:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] advocacy advice to an grandmother In-Reply-To: <517AEB35.8010607@tysdomain.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> <517AE189.7090906@gmail.com> <517AEB35.8010607@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <78315C47-D841-460C-BBAB-EAA78801A71D@gmail.com> Tyler, Though I consider myself an ardent federationist, I pretty much completely agree with you here. I think, in general, there isn't as much animosity between the two camps as there used to be. While there are legitimate reasons I chose the NFB over the ACB, I think each organization has a place. I'd like to think it isn't that hard to be open-minded enough to respect the rational people who choose to be part of a different consumer group than The one you personally agree most with. I certainly know my fair share of bright, intelligent, logical ACD people and I say it's much better to have a logical discussion, even if it turns into a civil debate, then it is to resort to the old habits of name calling and petty insults. Anyways, that's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 3:01 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > I only have a couple of points. > First, I really liked the letter you wrote--I'd just remove the random lol. Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but older people generally don't care for what Lol means and it totally kills your flow here. > Second, you're focusing a lot on NFB and ACB fighting among themselves. This might be true, but there are amazing people in both camps. I've been attacked on this list for being part of the ACB, then others don't care because whatever I am part of, as long as I do something somehow to help it doesn't matter. > The organizations themselves don't fight, it's mainly the die-hard fans of either camp. While it's not always the case, I've never seen all that much intelligence in the people that attacked me for being part of the ACB to begin with, so if they feel they need to scream at me, I'd rather them do that than say, try to promote fairness by doing something that would make us look worse. > > You also kind of sound like you're screaming into the wind here with your talk of nothing happening. There is a lot of stuff happening, it's just a very slow process. Your influence as well as everyone elses helps contribute to that bigger picture, even if it's not obvious right now. > > Just my two cents. > On 4/26/2013 2:20 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: >> Let me know your thoughts. >> >> Dear xxx. >> >> I hope that I got your name right because I have never ever been good with names. I guess it runs in the family. LOL. >> >> I want to introduce myself to you. Sam forwarded me your message and it was really moving that I just had to respond personally. >> >> I want to introduce what Sam and I do and then I will comment on what you have so truthfully written and I also want to give you my thoughts, based on observation alone. Sam and are both blindness related advocates here in Chicago Illinois. I'm a blind journalist here in Chicago Illinois as well as an advocate for the LGBT community. I'm most known for my journalistic endeavors and I want to tell you something very personal and profound. >> >> I've been blind ever since birth and I grew up in a very abusive environment. When you say the word invisible that really struck a chord with me. Even though I have dealt with the abusive past by turning it into positive advocacy energy that one word brought back several memories. I was invisible in both cases, from the blindness side and the domestic violence side, and, I had to find my own way out of it because the school for the blind I was in just didn't care to get involved with such matters. The unusualDCF investigations never went as far as someone from child services coming to our home to investigate only to deem that everything was fine because, even though I did not like my mom, I covered up for her. My troubles at home were invisible to everyone, or so I believed. The truth is that they weren't invisible and someone had noticed. Naturally, they just didn't know what to do. >> >> In school I also learned to embrace my blindness because I saw the treatment that we received at a young age. When I was 11, I asked the manager at a restaurant why he didn't have any Braille menus, and why he was breaking the law. He didn't have an answer for me, so I began to ask that question at every restaurant I came to. It was an easy question for me to ask. Why? Because I asked my mom why she broke the law all the time. I was, and still am, a bookworm so I had a lot of questions, based on the stuff I read critically. In high school I found my own way out of the abusive home and that's when I truly learned what independence was and so I began to go around school telling other blind kids what it meant as well. On the academic side of the circle, the Florida school for the deaf and the blind was very good, but anything social skills related, advocacy related, that just flew over their heads. They didn't even tell us what college was going to be like. I had to experience that for myself. I realized that I had a gift and that gift was to string words together to make people listen. I was a writer and I started studying the extent, the power that my gift held. I began writing proposals for a school newspaper that the school had never had and I soon started my own school newspaper. Even at a blind school, the teachers told me that no one would read it. Kids at Saint Augustine high were crawling to pay for the fourth issue. >> >> I do have a point to this entire story so just hang in there! LOL. >> >> I wasn't invisible anymore but the blindness community was, and I realized this even more after I got out of high school. I'm sure that you have heard about the NFB and ACB and AFB and all of the above and many more. If you haven’t they are blindness advocacy groups that do their own parts in different things. You want to talk about invisible? These groups are invisible. They are just now being heard about in mainstream media regularly. Even now, though, the only people who know about them are blind people. Why? Because there haven’t been any loud voices. Okay, correction, there are loud voices but they are quietly yelling, thinking they will not do anything worthwhile by speaking up. You’re an example of a voice that everyone should listen to. These blind groups would listen but there's a huge problem with these groups, and it's a shame to see the ironic twist, they don't reach out to sighted people for assistance with legal matters, or any other matter, they'd rather stay in their own tents, if you get my drift. Some efforts, not all, but some, are after the media to do stories about them. The NFB and ACB both have a lot to offer but they both don't do a big enough job on their own separately. They do things on a case-by-case basis, and their efforts are to educate the public about the blind and then change comes after the education. Plus, they even fight among one another, and waste energy doing it. All that yelling could have been done to do something better. The ACB people will say they are better, the NFB say that they do the right thing. Never, ever, have they collaborated on anything solid to make a powerful enough standing for change. Education does little good if change isn't implemented but they haven’t realized this yet. They want to say that their group is better than the other rather than make efforts to change the community to better serve the blind. >> >> That being said, there's a lot of people who are making a difference. >> >> For example, I want to point you to Christine. http://www.christineha.com/ >> >> She was a blind MasterChef winner last season. >> >> There's a car that's driverless, allowing blind people to be mobile like never before... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car >> >> Also, the ACB have managed to get the communications and accessibility act signed by Obama, which will allow all electronic devices, even cell phones to be accessible. http://www.acb.org/adp/tv.html. They are also taking strides to make all paper currency accessible to the blind and the visually impaired. >> >> The NFB have done much work on employment. They have done so many things that I'll just give you their website. https://nfb.org/ >> >> And people like us, me, Sam, you, and every other small voice out there makes a big difference, even if we don't realize it or see it right away. For instance, I received an email from a woman whose wives, sisters, and friend I helped out years ago. You know how they say that every action has an equal and opposite reaction? Even though the action isn't seen and heard for years, it's an action that will be carried out for sure. For example, the FSDB kids of today now have a paper they can write for because of my simple action three years ago. I'm glad that I made that decision. >> >> I do think that we should unite to give the blind a much more stable ground to walk on but I'm just one person. Bigger and better companies and blindness organizations have a lot to fight about that are a lot more important than our wishes and dreams. I'm sorry to say but it's the truth. These blindness groups have a lot of energy to fight each other but that's changing too. That being said, I'm still going to continue to do my small actions of writing and advocacy and standing up for our rights as blind people because I know that somewhere along the line, even after my death, I will have made a powerful impact on someone's life and have made them a better person because I managed to get people talking because an article was published or because I demanded to see a company officer to straighten out an accessibility barrier, gave them some guidance. It's hard to stand up for the right thing because it seems that no one is listening. They are listening. I do believe, however, that this blindness schism is the worst that I've ever seen and it's the dumbest thing ever especially since they both promote inclusion and equality and they can't even include one another. To combat this, the people, not organizations, not the NFB, not the ACB, not the AFB, the people need to change what it means to be blind. We’re doing that. You’re doing that. You’re amazing! We’re amazing! Even though we’re making progress it will take time, as with all great things. Big things come in small packages and voices and efforts. >> >> Your small actions towards your granddaughter will be remembered, and appreciated, and used very well even though they may seem as though they are not getting anywhere at the moment they will blossom into something big. People like us just have to continue to be loud positive vocal people who will both advocate and educate for the blind and the visually impaired. We can't rely on just blindness groups because then we will be sitting on our hands talking, taking no action. >> >> I just want to say hell yes you’re a good grandmother. She knows Braille; she's standing up for herself. You’re giving her all she needs, even if it's not right now. Even a small ripple can make a big wave. We’re making a big wave, even if that wave won’t come until years later. Our small actions will impact the world, and that's why I do what I do. That’s why I don't give up because no matter how much arguing goes on, ignorance is displayed, services are denied, etc. I know that I have the power to change things. I'm proud to use my particular power of writing to change the world and to change what it means to be blind. You are changing your granddaughter’s world, and someday, she will remember how you changed her world and then she will change other people’s lives and that will be all because of you, xxx, you’re an amazing ripple. Continue to make that wave! >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 21:33:15 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:33:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young Writers In-Reply-To: References: <012901ce4061$fbdaf800$f390e800$@gmail.com> <01b201ce4135$8c5f96f0$a51ec4d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002d01ce42c5$a96d0d90$fc4728b0$@gmail.com> Tamika, Thanks--I guess I missed that. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamika Williams Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 9:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young Writers Chris after browsing this message, it says that it is a nation wide contest. I think that this is a great opportunity for anybody interested. Tamika On 4/24/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Joe, > > Do you know if this contest is limited to students who live in Illinois? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:35 PM > To: 'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS' > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: writing contest for teens 15-18: SIUC Young > Writers > > THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS > UNIVERSITY CARBONDALE http://www.angelfire.com/il/yww/contest.html > 2012 Winners: Kate Mirly of Smithton, IL(Prose) > > Monique Ocanas of Park Forest, IL (Poetry) > > A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. > > THE YOUNKIN-RIVERA PRIZES FOR YOUNG WRITERS AT SOUTHERN ILLINOIS > UNIVERSITY CARBONDALE > > A nationwide competition for creative writers aged 15-18. Entries > accepted during the month of April in the genres of poetry and prose. > Prize in each > category: $150 and a full tuition scholarship to the 2013 Young > Writers Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale. > > To enter in poetry: send no more than 2 poems (limit of 25 lines each) > per entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. > > To enter in prose (fiction or essay): send one essay or story (no more > 1000 > words) per entrant, along with an entry fee of $5. > > To enter in both poetry and prose: send no more than 2 poems (limit of > 25 lines each) and one essay or story (of no more than 1000 words) per > entrant, along with an entry fee of $10. Entries longer than the > limits listed above will be returned, along with their entry fees. > Entrants must be U.S. > citizens or permanent residents. > > All entries must be typed on white 8 1/2 by 11 inch paper. Do not put > your name on your entries. Include a separate cover sheet with the > following information on it: your name, home address, phone number, > e-mail address, date of birth, and the name and address of your high > school. Checks or money orders to cover the entry fee should be made > out to SIUC, with "Young Writers Workshop" written in the check's memo > line. Please do not send cash. > Include a self-addressed stamped envelope for contest results. No > entries will be returned, so please keep copies of the work you send. > No e-mail or faxed submissions will be accepted. > > Prizes will be awarded at a ceremony during the annual Young Writers > Workshop at Southern Illinois University Carbondale, a five-day, > co-ed, residential creative writing workshop for high school > sophomores, juniors, and seniors interested in developing their skills > in the writing of poetry and prose. If a prizewinner cannot attend the > Workshop, the prize will not be awarded to that winner. Travel costs > to and from the Workshop are the responsibility of the winner. Previous award winners cannot enter again. > > > The Young Writers Workshop will be held in 2013 from June 25 to June > 29, 2013. > > To enter, send your submissions, postmarked from April 5 to April 30, > 2013, > to: > > The Younkin-Rivera Prizes for Young Writers Allison Joseph, Director > > The Young Writers Workshop > > Department of English > > Southern Illinois University Carbondale > > Faner Hall 2380--Mail Code 4503 > > 1000 Faner Drive > > Carbondale, IL 69201 > > Email for Questions only: aljosephATsiuDOTedu > > Winners will be announced at the end of May 2013. > > Allison Joseph > SIUC Young Writers Workshop Director > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars% > 40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 21:38:33 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:38:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010e01ce42c6$67458450$35d08cf0$@gmail.com> Steve, Naturally, I disagree, maybe the first time when it comes to technology. The OCR engines that power Kurzweil are not the fully developed software found in the mainstream products. In fact, I believe the engines in the assistive products are behind by a version or two, which makes sense from a competitive standpoint. A version or more makes a significant difference when you're talking about the sophistication of text recognition. No, the mainstream products do not render text in MP3, not yet that I'm aware of. They do not feature classic books. They do not crank up their price to use a proprietary speech synthesizer that puts your screen reader of choice to sleep, and some of them do not feature a dictionary and miscellaneous tools you may never use, and tools that you could find at a far lower price elsewhere. If you look carefully, you can find a copy of ABBYY Finereader for $37. That's not very likely for the assistive counterparts. It's a substantial financial difference when the interface is just as straightforward in one product as the other. Yes, you spend a little time learning concepts like training the software to behave the way you like, but since when do we advocate blind people opt for the assistive products just because they were blind-friendly? That's setting people up for failure in the workplace... The idea that people ought to buy a product simply because the state agency can pay for it is a little appalling. This sets up the person for failure later when they are no longer covered by a state plan and face the reality of paying maintenance fees to keep the product updated. Yes, you pay to upgrade mainstream software as well, but you're going to pay a lot less to do so than the assistive technology companies get away with. All that said, it is an individual choice. Perhaps I'm a little bitter that OpenBook is what was procured for me at work, and I absolutely hate it. I stand by my claim the mainstream route is ten times better. I prove it every day. (grin) Also, don't forget about DocuScan. If you absolutely have to get an assistive OCR product, give Serotek a try. In full disclosure, I do freelance work for them. http://www.serotek.com/docuscanplus Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 10:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil This is a tricky subject, and I think one should be careful of simple answers. The off-the-shelf products are much cheaper as Joe said, but depending upon the product and the version, the interfaces can be challenging. a knowledgeable computer user should be able to use FineReader or OmniPage and many of us have done that. However, for many, the simpler interfaces of Kurzweil 1000 and Open Book may be worth the extra price, especially if one can justify having it paid for. I think I would try to get a demo of FineReader before deciding for certain that it is for you, unless you feel you are a pretty experienced computer user. Many state agencies are used to paying for Kurzweil or Open Book, and I don't see the down side of going that route if it is available to you. I think you will find that most scanners will work with Kurzweil 1000 or FineReader if they have drivers for the operating system you are using. It is hard for me to imagine that you will find a scanner that would work with Kurzweil that does not work with FineReader or OmniPage. There are older scanners that will not work with Windows 7, and I suspect the same might be true of Windows 8, and this would affect both programs. Finally, in terms of character recognition, Kurzweil gives you the choice of either using the OmniPage or the FineReader recognition "engine" as they call it. In other words, the actual recognition of text is going to be about the same whether you are using Kurzweil or FineReader. Therefore, I think that the claim that FineReader will work ten times better is a bit of an exaggeration. However, that also means that it is fair to say that the high price you pay for something like Kurzweil or Open Book is not for better character recognition but rather for an interface that is easier to use. Is that worth the extra money? To some it is not, but to some it is. The question isn't whether one can use FineReader or OmniPage, the question is rather whether they can use the off-the-shelf products as efficiently as they can use Kurzweil 1000 or Open book, and whether the difference in efficiency is worth it. The answers are different for different people. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:04:33 -0400, Justin Young wrote: >Hi Joe, >Do you need a specific scanner to go with this product or will any one >work fine? I was told that with Kurzweil you had to use specific >scanners that would only work with Kurzweil. Thanks for the suggestion >haven't heard of this product before so I'm gonna definitely look into >it. >Justin >On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> Hi, go with ABBYY Finereader. It's a mainstream off-the-shelf >> product, is a lot cheaper than the assistive options, and works ten >> times better than Kurzweil or Openbook ever will.--Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin >> Young >> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. >> Kurzweil >> >> Hi Jane, >> >> Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to >> use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from what I read. >> >> On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >>> I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle >>> hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because >>> han-writing is so different for every one. >>> >>> Jane >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >>>> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >>>> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in >>>> hearing if anyone knew if it handled documents better than >>>> Kurzweil? For example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you >>>> can't really do anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support >>>> these types of documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could >>>> provide any information on this devise. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Justin >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.co >> m >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 21:35:24 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:35:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ctabs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01ce42c5$f6adf830$e409e890$@gmail.com> Kate, Sorry, I don't. You might want to contact a leader of the CT division. Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn Webster Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 9:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Ctabs Hey y'all! Anyone have any idea what the phone number is for the ct tabss conference call? Thanks in advance! -Kate Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 23:30:41 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:30:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] advocacy advice to an grandmother In-Reply-To: <78315C47-D841-460C-BBAB-EAA78801A71D@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> <517AE189.7090906@gmail.com> <517AEB35.8010607@tysdomain.com> <78315C47-D841-460C-BBAB-EAA78801A71D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E8CAFD1-53E1-4A06-AE56-EDABEEDBD244@gmail.com> It's a bit misleading to say the blind advocacy groups don't reach out to sighted people on legal matters or any others. While I can't speak for others, I know the NFB does. They work extensively with sighted educators of the blind, sighted employers, sighted CEO's of tech companies, sighted legislators and senators, and a law firm consisting of mostly sighted attorneys who represent the blind people involved in the legal battles the NFB takes on. I also know more sighted people who have not only heard of, but whose lives have been impacted by the NFB than I can shake a stick at. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > Tyler, > Though I consider myself an ardent federationist, I pretty much completely agree with you here. I think, in general, there isn't as much animosity between the two camps as there used to be. While there are legitimate reasons I chose the NFB over the ACB, I think each organization has a place. I'd like to think it isn't that hard to be open-minded enough to respect the rational people who choose to be part of a different consumer group than The one you personally agree most with. I certainly know my fair share of bright, intelligent, logical ACD people and I say it's much better to have a logical discussion, even if it turns into a civil debate, then it is to resort to the old habits of name calling and petty insults. Anyways, that's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 3:01 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > >> I only have a couple of points. >> First, I really liked the letter you wrote--I'd just remove the random lol. Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but older people generally don't care for what Lol means and it totally kills your flow here. >> Second, you're focusing a lot on NFB and ACB fighting among themselves. This might be true, but there are amazing people in both camps. I've been attacked on this list for being part of the ACB, then others don't care because whatever I am part of, as long as I do something somehow to help it doesn't matter. >> The organizations themselves don't fight, it's mainly the die-hard fans of either camp. While it's not always the case, I've never seen all that much intelligence in the people that attacked me for being part of the ACB to begin with, so if they feel they need to scream at me, I'd rather them do that than say, try to promote fairness by doing something that would make us look worse. >> >> You also kind of sound like you're screaming into the wind here with your talk of nothing happening. There is a lot of stuff happening, it's just a very slow process. Your influence as well as everyone elses helps contribute to that bigger picture, even if it's not obvious right now. >> >> Just my two cents. >> On 4/26/2013 2:20 PM, Robert William Kingett wrote: >>> Let me know your thoughts. >>> >>> Dear xxx. >>> >>> I hope that I got your name right because I have never ever been good with names. I guess it runs in the family. LOL. >>> >>> I want to introduce myself to you. Sam forwarded me your message and it was really moving that I just had to respond personally. >>> >>> I want to introduce what Sam and I do and then I will comment on what you have so truthfully written and I also want to give you my thoughts, based on observation alone. Sam and are both blindness related advocates here in Chicago Illinois. I'm a blind journalist here in Chicago Illinois as well as an advocate for the LGBT community. I'm most known for my journalistic endeavors and I want to tell you something very personal and profound. >>> >>> I've been blind ever since birth and I grew up in a very abusive environment. When you say the word invisible that really struck a chord with me. Even though I have dealt with the abusive past by turning it into positive advocacy energy that one word brought back several memories. I was invisible in both cases, from the blindness side and the domestic violence side, and, I had to find my own way out of it because the school for the blind I was in just didn't care to get involved with such matters. The unusualDCF investigations never went as far as someone from child services coming to our home to investigate only to deem that everything was fine because, even though I did not like my mom, I covered up for her. My troubles at home were invisible to everyone, or so I believed. The truth is that they weren't invisible and someone had noticed. Naturally, they just didn't know what to do. >>> >>> In school I also learned to embrace my blindness because I saw the treatment that we received at a young age. When I was 11, I asked the manager at a restaurant why he didn't have any Braille menus, and why he was breaking the law. He didn't have an answer for me, so I began to ask that question at every restaurant I came to. It was an easy question for me to ask. Why? Because I asked my mom why she broke the law all the time. I was, and still am, a bookworm so I had a lot of questions, based on the stuff I read critically. In high school I found my own way out of the abusive home and that's when I truly learned what independence was and so I began to go around school telling other blind kids what it meant as well. On the academic side of the circle, the Florida school for the deaf and the blind was very good, but anything social skills related, advocacy related, that just flew over their heads. They didn't even tell us what college was going to be like. I had to experience that for myself. I realized that I had a gift and that gift was to string words together to make people listen. I was a writer and I started studying the extent, the power that my gift held. I began writing proposals for a school newspaper that the school had never had and I soon started my own school newspaper. Even at a blind school, the teachers told me that no one would read it. Kids at Saint Augustine high were crawling to pay for the fourth issue. >>> >>> I do have a point to this entire story so just hang in there! LOL. >>> >>> I wasn't invisible anymore but the blindness community was, and I realized this even more after I got out of high school. I'm sure that you have heard about the NFB and ACB and AFB and all of the above and many more. If you haven’t they are blindness advocacy groups that do their own parts in different things. You want to talk about invisible? These groups are invisible. They are just now being heard about in mainstream media regularly. Even now, though, the only people who know about them are blind people. Why? Because there haven’t been any loud voices. Okay, correction, there are loud voices but they are quietly yelling, thinking they will not do anything worthwhile by speaking up. You’re an example of a voice that everyone should listen to. These blind groups would listen but there's a huge problem with these groups, and it's a shame to see the ironic twist, they don't reach out to sighted people for assistance with legal matters, or any other matter, they'd rather stay in their own tents, if you get my drift. Some efforts, not all, but some, are after the media to do stories about them. The NFB and ACB both have a lot to offer but they both don't do a big enough job on their own separately. They do things on a case-by-case basis, and their efforts are to educate the public about the blind and then change comes after the education. Plus, they even fight among one another, and waste energy doing it. All that yelling could have been done to do something better. The ACB people will say they are better, the NFB say that they do the right thing. Never, ever, have they collaborated on anything solid to make a powerful enough standing for change. Education does little good if change isn't implemented but they haven’t realized this yet. They want to say that their group is better than the other rather than make efforts to change the community to better serve the blind. >>> >>> That being said, there's a lot of people who are making a difference. >>> >>> For example, I want to point you to Christine. http://www.christineha.com/ >>> >>> She was a blind MasterChef winner last season. >>> >>> There's a car that's driverless, allowing blind people to be mobile like never before... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car >>> >>> Also, the ACB have managed to get the communications and accessibility act signed by Obama, which will allow all electronic devices, even cell phones to be accessible. http://www.acb.org/adp/tv.html. They are also taking strides to make all paper currency accessible to the blind and the visually impaired. >>> >>> The NFB have done much work on employment. They have done so many things that I'll just give you their website. https://nfb.org/ >>> >>> And people like us, me, Sam, you, and every other small voice out there makes a big difference, even if we don't realize it or see it right away. For instance, I received an email from a woman whose wives, sisters, and friend I helped out years ago. You know how they say that every action has an equal and opposite reaction? Even though the action isn't seen and heard for years, it's an action that will be carried out for sure. For example, the FSDB kids of today now have a paper they can write for because of my simple action three years ago. I'm glad that I made that decision. >>> >>> I do think that we should unite to give the blind a much more stable ground to walk on but I'm just one person. Bigger and better companies and blindness organizations have a lot to fight about that are a lot more important than our wishes and dreams. I'm sorry to say but it's the truth. These blindness groups have a lot of energy to fight each other but that's changing too. That being said, I'm still going to continue to do my small actions of writing and advocacy and standing up for our rights as blind people because I know that somewhere along the line, even after my death, I will have made a powerful impact on someone's life and have made them a better person because I managed to get people talking because an article was published or because I demanded to see a company officer to straighten out an accessibility barrier, gave them some guidance. It's hard to stand up for the right thing because it seems that no one is listening. They are listening. I do believe, however, that this blindness schism is the worst that I've ever seen and it's the dumbest thing ever especially since they both promote inclusion and equality and they can't even include one another. To combat this, the people, not organizations, not the NFB, not the ACB, not the AFB, the people need to change what it means to be blind. We’re doing that. You’re doing that. You’re amazing! We’re amazing! Even though we’re making progress it will take time, as with all great things. Big things come in small packages and voices and efforts. >>> >>> Your small actions towards your granddaughter will be remembered, and appreciated, and used very well even though they may seem as though they are not getting anywhere at the moment they will blossom into something big. People like us just have to continue to be loud positive vocal people who will both advocate and educate for the blind and the visually impaired. We can't rely on just blindness groups because then we will be sitting on our hands talking, taking no action. >>> >>> I just want to say hell yes you’re a good grandmother. She knows Braille; she's standing up for herself. You’re giving her all she needs, even if it's not right now. Even a small ripple can make a big wave. We’re making a big wave, even if that wave won’t come until years later. Our small actions will impact the world, and that's why I do what I do. That’s why I don't give up because no matter how much arguing goes on, ignorance is displayed, services are denied, etc. I know that I have the power to change things. I'm proud to use my particular power of writing to change the world and to change what it means to be blind. You are changing your granddaughter’s world, and someday, she will remember how you changed her world and then she will change other people’s lives and that will be all because of you, xxx, you’re an amazing ripple. Continue to make that wave! >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Apr 27 03:47:37 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 22:47:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil Message-ID: Joe, We don't disagree completely. Many of the extra features added are seldom used, and one is paying a lot for simply getting a different interface. Having gone through many Omnipage upgrades, I have noticed more changes to interface than I have noticed the increased claims of accuracy, though. Therefore, I am not convinced that one gets ten times better results with FineReader. I do accept that you may get similar to slightly better results with Finereader at close to a tenth the cost. If that is what you mean, I can agree with that. At least with Kurzweil, though, you actually get two OCR engines, the FineReader engine and the OmniPage engine, and switching engines can make a difference. You are right that the engine is not the full software, but it represents the heart of the OCR process. You are also right that the engines included in Kurzweil and probably Open Book are usually a version or sometimes two behind. These are all things worth considering. Probably where we may disagree, and I'm not absolutely sure that we do, is that there are some for whom the computer just isn't second nature. While such people might be able to master the interfaces of FineReader or OmniPage, they will never feel comfortable with it. I've worked with people in that category. Yet, the simpler interface of Kurzweil is one with which they can feel natural and they can work more efficiently. Is it worth the difference in price? Probably not to you or to me, but if it means being more efficient for some, the difference might be worth it to them. That's why I say it is an individual choice, but it is worth trying the off-the-shelf software first if one can do it. I also think we are talking about a different situation when one is using OCR software in the work place where it is unlikely anyone else is using it. I am a strong believer in using the same word processor and other software as my co-workers. When I have used OCR for work, though, it was something only I have done, so it makes less difference which course I choose to follow. The real question is whether the expensive alternatives give enough of an advantage to be worth the price. I don't think the answer is as obviously "no" as you do, but I also don't think people should assume that the expensive alternatives are the only way they can go. So where can I find FineReader for $37 or in that price range? Best regards, Steve On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:38:33 -0400, Joe wrote: >Steve, >Naturally, I disagree, maybe the first time when it comes to technology. The >OCR engines that power Kurzweil are not the fully developed software found >in the mainstream products. In fact, I believe the engines in the assistive >products are behind by a version or two, which makes sense from a >competitive standpoint. A version or more makes a significant difference >when you're talking about the sophistication of text recognition. >No, the mainstream products do not render text in MP3, not yet that I'm >aware of. They do not feature classic books. They do not crank up their >price to use a proprietary speech synthesizer that puts your screen reader >of choice to sleep, and some of them do not feature a dictionary and >miscellaneous tools you may never use, and tools that you could find at a >far lower price elsewhere. If you look carefully, you can find a copy of >ABBYY Finereader for $37. That's not very likely for the assistive >counterparts. It's a substantial financial difference when the interface is >just as straightforward in one product as the other. Yes, you spend a little >time learning concepts like training the software to behave the way you >like, but since when do we advocate blind people opt for the assistive >products just because they were blind-friendly? That's setting people up for >failure in the workplace... >The idea that people ought to buy a product simply because the state agency >can pay for it is a little appalling. This sets up the person for failure >later when they are no longer covered by a state plan and face the reality >of paying maintenance fees to keep the product updated. Yes, you pay to >upgrade mainstream software as well, but you're going to pay a lot less to >do so than the assistive technology companies get away with. >All that said, it is an individual choice. Perhaps I'm a little bitter that >OpenBook is what was procured for me at work, and I absolutely hate it. I >stand by my claim the mainstream route is ten times better. I prove it every >day. (grin) >Also, don't forget about DocuScan. If you absolutely have to get an >assistive OCR product, give Serotek a try. In full disclosure, I do >freelance work for them. >http://www.serotek.com/docuscanplus >Joe >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson >Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 10:22 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. Kurzweil >This is a tricky subject, and I think one should be careful of simple >answers. The off-the-shelf products are much cheaper as Joe said, but >depending upon the product and the version, the interfaces can be >challenging. a knowledgeable computer user should be able to use FineReader >or OmniPage and many of us have done that. However, for many, the simpler >interfaces of Kurzweil 1000 and Open Book may be worth the extra price, >especially if one can justify having it paid for. I think I would try to >get a demo of FineReader before deciding for certain that it is for you, >unless you feel you are a pretty experienced computer user. Many state >agencies are used to paying for Kurzweil or Open Book, and I don't see the >down side of going that route if it is available to you. >I think you will find that most scanners will work with Kurzweil 1000 or >FineReader if they have drivers for the operating system you are using. It >is hard for me to imagine that you will find a scanner that would work with >Kurzweil that does not work with FineReader or OmniPage. There are older >scanners that will not work with Windows 7, and I suspect the same might be >true of Windows 8, and this would affect both programs. >Finally, in terms of character recognition, Kurzweil gives you the choice of >either using the OmniPage or the FineReader recognition "engine" as they >call it. In other words, the actual recognition of text is going to be >about the same whether you are using Kurzweil or FineReader. Therefore, I >think that the claim that FineReader will work ten times better is a bit of >an exaggeration. However, that also means that it is fair to say >that the high price you pay for something like Kurzweil or Open Book is not >for better character recognition but rather for an interface that is easier >to use. Is that worth the extra money? To some it is not, but to some it >is. The question isn't whether one can use FineReader or OmniPage, the >question is rather whether they can use the off-the-shelf products as >efficiently as they can use Kurzweil 1000 or Open book, and whether the >difference in efficiency is worth it. The answers are different for >different people. >Best regards, >Steve Jacobson >On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:04:33 -0400, Justin Young wrote: >>Hi Joe, >>Do you need a specific scanner to go with this product or will any one >>work fine? I was told that with Kurzweil you had to use specific >>scanners that would only work with Kurzweil. Thanks for the suggestion >>haven't heard of this product before so I'm gonna definitely look into >>it. >>Justin >>On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>> Hi, go with ABBYY Finereader. It's a mainstream off-the-shelf >>> product, is a lot cheaper than the assistive options, and works ten >>> times better than Kurzweil or Openbook ever will.--Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin >>> Young >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:02 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) vs. >>> Kurzweil >>> >>> Hi Jane, >>> >>> Thank you for your response. How do you like it? Is it simple to >>> use? I don't know much about the devise, but sounded interesting from >what I read. >>> >>> On 4/23/13, Jane wrote: >>>> I have a SARA right on the thing above my desk. It won't handle >>>> hand-written stuff. Very few scanning solutions can, because >>>> han-writing is so different for every one. >>>> >>>> Jane >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Justin Young wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> Hope you are doing well. I was wondering if any of you have used a >>>>> devise called Scanning And Reading Appliance (SARA) from Freedom >>>>> Scientific? I currently have Kurzweil, but was interested in >>>>> hearing if anyone knew if it handled documents better than >>>>> Kurzweil? For example, at least with my version of Kurzweil, you >>>>> can't really do anything with handwritten text. Can SARA support >>>>> these types of documents? Just curious if anyone first hand could >>>>> provide any information on this devise. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Justin >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%4 >>>>> 0g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Apr 27 13:32:21 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 06:32:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <002301ce42bd$9a45c940$ced15bc0$@gmail.com> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> <002301ce42bd$9a45c940$ced15bc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20130427062459.021b6c18@comcast.net> On Blindness, having read the book, I found it a very enlightening examination of Spanish culture and believe it has a rightful place in literature. People, just calm down. We have entities such as the Federation and other such entities espousing blind independence to thunder that particular message. The story of Blindness has an equally relevant message. Car personally seen >the movie or read the book, but I'm not sure if I'd want to. > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg Aikens >Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 3:42 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature > >Perhaps some more controversial titles would include Blindness by portuguese >author Jose Saramago. This was turned into a film a few years ago and >caused a stir in our community because the negative ways people behave and >respond when a blindness epidemic hits. I have not read the book but the >film was quite disturbing. > >A classic from spanish literature is El Lazarillo de Tornes, the story of a >young child who gets hired to lead a blind man around in early medieval >Spain. Again, not the most flattering portrayal of blind people. I had to >read it for a spanish lit class in college. > >I know these aren't Swedish or children's literature, but any survey of the >topic might want to include negative examples as well as positive ones. > > >On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "justin williams" >wrote: > > > No, we're just not that cool. Big ups to Baltimore. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > > christopher nusbaum > > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:34 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > > literature > > > > Yeah... do you have a book with blind characters that is set in your area? > > Grin! > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:23 AM, justin williams > > > > wrote: > > > >> Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >> christopher nusbaum > >> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > >> literature > >> > >> I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although > >> this book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it > >> and thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a > >> way that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the > >> struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while > >> adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright > >> refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward > >> this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just > >> down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set > >> here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our > >> national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would > >> like > > to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! > >> > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity >wrote: > >> > >>> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a > >>> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. > >>> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind > >>> characters adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my > >>> Leader. Blind Sighted is another more recent one. If you want > >>> something a little more fantastical, there is a blind character in > >>> Libba Bray's new book the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which > >>> was made into a movie a couple years ago. But those are more modern > >>> and American(except for Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting >reads for you. > >>> > >>> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: > >>>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures > >>>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the > >>>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. > >>>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something > >>>> like The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and > >>>> held for ransom.--Joe > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie > >>>> Gilmer > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > >>>> literature > >>>> > >>>> Hello- > >>>> Two of my best friends from college were international students > >>>> from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked > >>>> them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no > >>>> blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, > >>>> and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after > >>>> coming to > > U.S. > >> ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. > >>>> best of luck > >>>> Carrie > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen > >>>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. > >>>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go > >>>>> to > > school. > >>>>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set > >>>>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. > >>>>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to > >>>>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom > >>>>> how she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked > >>>>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is > >>>>> also a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of > >>>>> View, although I haven't really read it. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: > >>>>>> BS"D > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear NABS, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. > >>>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in > >>>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some > >>>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know > >>>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a > >>>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I > >>>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you > >>>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit > > overwhelmed! > >>>>>> Forgive my bad English! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Kind regards, > >>>>>> Leye-Shprintse > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>>>> t > >>>>>> 1 > >>>>>> 04 > >>>>>> %40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Kaiti > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer% > >>>>> 4 > >>>>> 0 > >>>>> gm > >>>>> ail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. > >>>> com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gma > >>>> i > >>>> l > >>>> .com > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Julie McG > >>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > >>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri > >>> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the > >>> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his > >>> only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but > >>> may have eternal life." > >>> John 3:16 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%4 > >>> 0 > >>> g > >>> mail.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% > >> 4 > >> 0gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 > >> g > >> mail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > 0gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.c > > om > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >om > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From zdreicer at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 13:40:43 2013 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:40:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [BNU] Announcement: April 2013 Chat information References: Message-ID: <1D3CC31E-47D6-4083-8EC4-9625AD431A17@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone Using voice over Begin forwarded message: > From: Joseph Lee > Date: April 25, 2013, 1:41:06 PM MDT > To: braillenote > Subject: [BNU] Announcement: April 2013 Chat information > Reply-To: joseph.lee22590 at gmail.com > > Hi folks, > Sorry for this late notice again... > Here's the official invitation announcement for April 2013 BrailleNote > Users Chat: > > Dear BrailleNote Users, HumanWare staff and others: > We at BrailleNote Users would like to cordially invite you to the next > BrailleNote Users Chat to be held on April 27, 2013. The BrailleNote > Users Chat is designed to allow BrailleNote users around the world to > come and talk to each other on recent BrailleNOte-related > developments, as well as a forum for communicating between users and > manufacturer. > > To accommodate various modes of chat communication, two sessions of > the chat will be offered: > 1. Skype: April 27, 2013 at 10 AM Pacific, 11 AM Mountain, 12 PM > Central, 1 PM Eastern, 17:00 UTC. Host ID will be ucr2012 and is > designed for people who use Skype, a popular voice chat software for > PC's, Mac, iPhone and other platforms. > 2. Phone: April 27m 2913 at 4 PM Pacific, 5 PM Mountain, 6 PM Central, > 7 PM Eastern, 23:00 UTC. This is designed for phone users. Before > start of chat, call 218-936-2099 (Conversation Station), select live > rooms, then enter 284# (pound) to enter our BrailleNote chat room. > For those who would like to join either sessions and wish to use their > BrailleNote can add braillenoteusers at gmail.com to your addressbook and > start chatting with a relay person. > Hope to see you their on Saturday!!! > Sincerely, > Joseph Lee > On behalf of BrailleNote Users listserv > ------------------------------- > BNU: BrailleNote Users - a forum for users of BrailleNote family of products from Humanware. > Website: www.braillenoteusers.info > > IMPORTANT: By default, replies will be sent to individuals. If you feel that your reply would be useful for others, please use "reply to all" feature in your email client. > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, send an email with the subject line of "unsubscribe" to braillenote-request at freelists.org. > > You can also visit our list page at: > www.freelists.org/list/braillenote > From this page, you can unsubscribe, change email delivery settings and view list archives. > > If you have any comments or questions for list moderators, please send an email to braillenote-moderators at freelists.org. Thanks. From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 16:44:35 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:44:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20130427062459.021b6c18@comcast.net> References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> <-5266873068869780232@unknownmsgid> <005801ce41ae$4413db30$cc3b9190$@gmail.com> <2346767950357188835@unknownmsgid> <005a01ce41bb$85edb140$91c913c0$@gmail.com> <3200FE52-7975-44BC-BAB0-5DCD42EC02D2@gmail.com> <002301ce42bd$9a45c940$ced15bc0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20130427062459.021b6c18@comcast.net> Message-ID: What kind of message does the Blindness book mean to convey about Spanish culture? I haven't read the book, so I am genuinely curious. I still don't think it is right for a writer to use a whole group of people as an allegorical symbol, but I'm open to at least hear what kind of justification the author has for writing such a book. Arielle On 4/27/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > On Blindness, having read the book, I found it a > very enlightening examination of Spanish culture > and believe it has a rightful place in > literature. People, just calm down. We have > entities such as the Federation and other such > entities espousing blind independence to > thunder that particular message. The story of > Blindness has an equally relevant message. > Car personally seen >>the movie or read the book, but I'm not sure if I'd want to. >> >>Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>Public Relations Committee >>Maryland Association of Blind Students >>Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg Aikens >>Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 3:42 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature >> >>Perhaps some more controversial titles would include Blindness by >> portuguese >>author Jose Saramago. This was turned into a film a few years ago and >>caused a stir in our community because the negative ways people behave and >>respond when a blindness epidemic hits. I have not read the book but the >>film was quite disturbing. >> >>A classic from spanish literature is El Lazarillo de Tornes, the story of >> a >>young child who gets hired to lead a blind man around in early medieval >>Spain. Again, not the most flattering portrayal of blind people. I had >> to >>read it for a spanish lit class in college. >> >>I know these aren't Swedish or children's literature, but any survey of >> the >>topic might want to include negative examples as well as positive ones. >> >> >>On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "justin williams" >> >>wrote: >> >> > No, we're just not that cool. Big ups to Baltimore. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> > christopher nusbaum >> > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:34 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> > literature >> > >> > Yeah... do you have a book with blind characters that is set in your >> > area? >> > Grin! >> > >> > Chris Nusbaum >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:23 AM, justin williams >> > >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Givingyourself a plug. Nothing wrong witht that man. Grin. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >> christopher nusbaum >> >> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 7:00 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> >> literature >> >> >> >> I would also recommend Blindsided by Prescilla Commings. Although >> >> this book is also modern and American, I very much enjoyed reading it >> >> and thought the author did a good job of portraying blind people in a >> >> way that didn't evoke the reader's pity. Granted, it talks about the >> >> struggles that Natalie (the main character) goes through while >> >> adjusting to her blindness, especially her anxiety and outright >> >> refusal to use her cane (at first.) I may have a little bias toward >> >> this book, since it is set at the Maryland School for the Blind just >> >> down the road from me in Baltimore. :) But even if it were not set >> >> here, I would still recommend it to all of you. BTW, the NFB and our >> >> national center are mentioned a few times in this book! If you would >> >> like >> > to read it, Blindsided is available from Bookshare. Happy reading!! >> >> >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:05 AM, Julie McGinnity >>wrote: >> >> >> >>> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >> >>> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >> >>> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind >> >>> characters adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my >> >>> Leader. Blind Sighted is another more recent one. If you want >> >>> something a little more fantastical, there is a blind character in >> >>> Libba Bray's new book the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which >> >>> was made into a movie a couple years ago. But those are more modern >> >>> and American(except for Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be >> >>> interesting >>reads for you. >> >>> >> >>> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> >>>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures >> >>>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the >> >>>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. >> >>>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something >> >>>> like The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and >> >>>> held for ransom.--Joe >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >> >>>> Gilmer >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> >>>> literature >> >>>> >> >>>> Hello- >> >>>> Two of my best friends from college were international students >> >>>> from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked >> >>>> them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no >> >>>> blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, >> >>>> and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after >> >>>> coming to >> > U.S. >> >> ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. >> >>>> best of luck >> >>>> Carrie >> >>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>> >> >>>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Hi, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen >> >>>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. >> >>>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go >> >>>>> to >> > school. >> >>>>> She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set >> >>>>> in the 19th century so back then that might have been more common. >> >>>>> In the end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to >> >>>>> try to raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom >> >>>>> how she's won she finds that the town kept putting their picked >> >>>>> fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of their own. There is >> >>>>> also a book I've come across called, "From Charlie's Point of >> >>>>> View, although I haven't really read it. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >> >>>>>> BS"D >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear NABS, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my >> >>>>>> thesis. >> >>>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >> >>>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >> >>>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know >> >>>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a >> >>>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I >> >>>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you >> >>>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit >> > overwhelmed! >> >>>>>> Forgive my bad English! >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Kind regards, >> >>>>>> Leye-Shprintse >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> >>>>>> t >> >>>>>> 1 >> >>>>>> 04 >> >>>>>> %40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> Kaiti >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer% >> >>>>> 4 >> >>>>> 0 >> >>>>> gm >> >>>>> ail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >> >>>> com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gma >> >>>> i >> >>>> l >> >>>> .com >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Julie McG >> >>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> >>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >> >>> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >> >>> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his >> >>> only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but >> >>> may have eternal life." >> >>> John 3:16 >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%4 >> >>> 0 >> >>> g >> >>> mail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> >> 4 >> >> 0gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> >> g >> >> mail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> > 0gmail >> > .com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.c >> > om >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >>om >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 04:40:52 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 22:40:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jane Eyre is a great book, but the character doesn't become blind until the very end. (I won't say which character it is :). Arielle On 4/25/13, Julie McGinnity wrote: > There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a > blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. > But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters > adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind > Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little > more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book > the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a > couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for > Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. > > On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in >> Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show >> did >> produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact >> name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about >> the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >> Gilmer >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature >> >> Hello- >> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >> Sweden, >> over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. >> they >> both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere >> from >> childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person >> until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse >> topic. >> best of luck >> Carrie >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >>> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >>> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >>> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >>> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >>> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >>> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >>> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >>> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >>> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >>> really read it. >>> >>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>> BS"D >>>> >>>> Dear NABS, >>>> >>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad >>>> English! >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>> >>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >>> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Apr 27 17:21:37 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 13:21:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Message-ID: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> Hi all, As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, how are they? Are they competent readers? I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. Look forward to seeing your responses. Ashley From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 22:30:55 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:30:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my next college. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Hi all, > > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, how are they? Are they competent readers? > > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > > Look forward to seeing your responses. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 27 23:00:27 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:00:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> Message-ID: I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a chem major and an A student. So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you interview them by having them read to you. On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, > but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and > capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But > they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem > you are dealing with right now and my next college. > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do > you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, > how are they? Are they competent readers? > > > > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were > incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and repeat > things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and > spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to > avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark > my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I > need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > > > > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > > > > Look forward to seeing your responses. > > > > Ashley > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Apr 27 23:00:27 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:00:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> Message-ID: I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a chem major and an A student. So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you interview them by having them read to you. On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, > but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and > capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But > they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem > you are dealing with right now and my next college. > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do > you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, > how are they? Are they competent readers? > > > > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were > incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and repeat > things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and > spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to > avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark > my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I > need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > > > > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > > > > Look forward to seeing your responses. > > > > Ashley > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 23:19:43 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:19:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com><019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. But there is one scene that I would use that I think is appropriate and brings about discussiion. I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie McGinnity" To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: > Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in > Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show > did > produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact > name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about > the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature > > Hello- > Two of my best friends from college were international students from > Sweden, > over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. > they > both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere > from > childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person > until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse > topic. > best of luck > Carrie > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >> really read it. >> >> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>> BS"D >>> >>> Dear NABS, >>> >>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad >>> English! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Leye-Shprintse >>> >>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>> %40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >> ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sat Apr 27 23:45:17 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 19:45:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, this is Helga. I know what you mean when you don't receive the help you need for testing. I'm also in my finals right now as well. In order for me to do my tests my disability adviser's assistant read me and scribe the test for me. She was very competent in reading, but sometimes I ask her if she could repeat the questions again, and she did it. The reason I did that is because my first Language is not English even though I speak it. Math was one of the hardest test to do with a scribe because sometimes it took me a while to tell her where to write the numbers in the test. I'm actually blind and I use JAWS, but I didn't really use it for testing yet. By the way, how does it work? Have you talk to your professors about this? Also, I just wanted to tell you that for this semester my professors are the ones who read and write the answers of the questions of the tests for me. By the way, what classes are you taking right now that you are require to take finals exams? I'm just wondering. By the way, do you have any contact number where I can contact you in order to answer your questions in more detail, or email address? Thank you so much. God bless!! -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 1:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi all, As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, how are they? Are they competent readers? I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. Look forward to seeing your responses. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 23:45:22 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:45:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the department and should know the material well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. Arielle On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had > disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a > chem major and an A student. > > So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you > interview them by having them read to you. > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > >> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >> > Do >> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >> how are they? Are they competent readers? >> > >> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >> repeat >> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >> mark >> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >> > >> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >> > >> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >> > >> > Ashley >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 00:05:59 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:05:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the Avatar series, the TV show not the blue people, might have a few novels out. If so there is a blind character in there who is pretty cool, although the show plays off the stereotype that blind people can use sound to know everything around them. Also, you might want to consider some of the commics. Dare Devel is the one that most readily comes to mind, but there are a few others that feature blind characters too. On 4/27/13, melissa Green wrote: > Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. > But there is one scene that I would use that I think is appropriate and > brings about discussiion. > I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. > > Blessings, > Sincerely, > Melissa and Pj > Find me on: > Twitter melissa5674 > facebook Melissa R Green > Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Julie McGinnity" > To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing > list" > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:51 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature > > > There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a > blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. > But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters > adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind > Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little > more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book > the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a > couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for > Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. > > On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in >> Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show >> did >> produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact >> name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about >> the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >> Gilmer >> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature >> >> Hello- >> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >> Sweden, >> over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. >> they >> both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere >> from >> childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person >> until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse >> topic. >> best of luck >> Carrie >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >>> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >>> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >>> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >>> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >>> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >>> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >>> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >>> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >>> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >>> really read it. >>> >>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>> BS"D >>>> >>>> Dear NABS, >>>> >>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad >>>> English! >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>> >>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >>> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 00:22:27 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:22:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: There are random blind characters all over the place in literature, though I've more often than not seen them in very minor roles which, though they are not central to the story, still tend to reflect the stereotypes we all know well. Also, Dr. Jernigan gave a banquet address called "Blindness: is Literature Against Us?," which can be found on nfb.org. I'm reading an epic fantasy series called A Song of Ice and Fire, and there is a very elderly blind man in a supporting role who is always being lead around by some servants, very slowly stumbling about on those rare occasions one of his servants isn't there, etc etc. On 4/27/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > I think the Avatar series, the TV show not the blue people, might have > a few novels out. If so there is a blind character in there who is > pretty cool, although the show plays off the stereotype that blind > people can use sound to know everything around them. Also, you might > want to consider some of the commics. Dare Devel is the one that most > readily comes to mind, but there are a few others that feature blind > characters too. > > On 4/27/13, melissa Green wrote: >> Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. >> But there is one scene that I would use that I think is appropriate and >> brings about discussiion. >> I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. >> >> Blessings, >> Sincerely, >> Melissa and Pj >> Find me on: >> Twitter melissa5674 >> facebook Melissa R Green >> Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Julie McGinnity" >> To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list" >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature >> >> >> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters >> adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind >> Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little >> more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book >> the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a >> couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for >> Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >> >> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in >>> Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show >>> did >>> produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the >>> exact >>> name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's >>> about >>> the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>> Gilmer >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>> literature >>> >>> Hello- >>> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >>> Sweden, >>> over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. >>> they >>> both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere >>> from >>> childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind >>> person >>> until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse >>> topic. >>> best of luck >>> Carrie >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen several >>>> depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. There is one >>>> book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go to school. She >>>> seems super dependent in there to me, but the book is also set in the >>>> 19th century so back then that might have been more common. In the >>>> end she participates in some sort of harvesting contest to try to >>>> raise money to buy a brailler, and when she can't fathom how she's won >>>> she finds that the town kept putting their picked fruits/vegitables in >>>> her basket instead of their own. There is also a book I've come >>>> across called, "From Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't >>>> really read it. >>>> >>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>> BS"D >>>>> >>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>> >>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish >>>>> children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where >>>>> I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else >>>>> have written about this subject? I think it's a very important >>>>> subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much >>>>> information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels >>>>> so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad >>>>> English! >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>> >>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 00:02:17 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:02:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley and all, For finals that I schedule through disability services I get the standard accomodations of a computer with Jaws so I can write my answers, up to double time to complete the exam if needed, and a distraction-reduced environment (although that's automatic for everyone who schedules through the ds office and not something I specifically get). Unfortunately I can't really help with the reader thing, as I have never really been in the habit of doing tests orally, but hopefully this will answer some of your questions or help a little. I feel like these accomodations are pretty fair and suit my needs well. Just curious, under what conditions do you all use readers? I've used Jaws on tests forever and really have never had a need to do it any other way, except in high school occasionally my aid would describe things on graphs but that's about it and I don't even have to deal with that now in college stats. Just wondering why you would choose to use a reader; Helga's explanation makes sense, but for those of us who are capable of using the technology I don't get why you would bring someone else into the picture. I've heard horror stories about people who did this and had to retake entire tests because the reader messed up a bunch of times, so I guess I'm not understanding the risk or even in the best scenario how it would be necessary if you have the skills to use Jaws and a computer. Any thoughts are appreciated. On 4/27/13, Helga wrote: > Hi Ashley, this is Helga. I know what you mean when you don't receive the > help you need for testing. I'm also in my finals right now as well. In order > for me to do my tests my disability adviser's assistant read me and scribe > the test for me. She was very competent in reading, but sometimes I ask her > if she could repeat the questions again, and she did it. The reason I did > that is because my first Language is not English even though I speak it. > Math was one of the hardest test to do with a scribe because sometimes it > took me a while to tell her where to write the numbers in the test. I'm > actually blind and I use JAWS, but I didn't really use it for testing yet. > By the way, how does it work? Have you talk to your professors about this? > Also, I just wanted to tell you that for this semester my professors are the > ones who read and write the answers of the questions of the tests for me. By > the way, what classes are you taking right now that you are require to take > finals exams? I'm just wondering. By the way, do you have any contact number > where I can contact you in order to answer your questions in more detail, or > email address? Thank you so much. God bless!! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 1:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Hi all, > > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do you > feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, how > are they? Are they competent readers? > > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were > incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and repeat > things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and spoke > to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to avoid > this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark my > answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I need a > reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > > Look forward to seeing your responses. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 00:32:38 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 20:32:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001701ce42de$b9113a50$2b33aef0$@gmail.com> The blind swordsmen from japan. I Ziratuchi or something like that. Also, the Dare Devil. Commic books. There is a blind jedi who is evil in some sort of series or something. There was a blind ranger in the R A Salvatore books; he was a skilled combattent. There is a true story about Harry Cordillo; he was amazing. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature There are random blind characters all over the place in literature, though I've more often than not seen them in very minor roles which, though they are not central to the story, still tend to reflect the stereotypes we all know well. Also, Dr. Jernigan gave a banquet address called "Blindness: is Literature Against Us?," which can be found on nfb.org. I'm reading an epic fantasy series called A Song of Ice and Fire, and there is a very elderly blind man in a supporting role who is always being lead around by some servants, very slowly stumbling about on those rare occasions one of his servants isn't there, etc etc. On 4/27/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > I think the Avatar series, the TV show not the blue people, might have > a few novels out. If so there is a blind character in there who is > pretty cool, although the show plays off the stereotype that blind > people can use sound to know everything around them. Also, you might > want to consider some of the commics. Dare Devel is the one that most > readily comes to mind, but there are a few others that feature blind > characters too. > > On 4/27/13, melissa Green wrote: >> Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. >> But there is one scene that I would use that I think is appropriate >> and brings about discussiion. >> I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. >> >> Blessings, >> Sincerely, >> Melissa and Pj >> Find me on: >> Twitter melissa5674 >> facebook Melissa R Green >> Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Julie McGinnity" >> To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list" >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> literature >> >> >> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters >> adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind >> Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little >> more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book >> the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a >> couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for >> Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >> >> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures >>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the >>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. >>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like >>> The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for >>> ransom.--Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>> Gilmer >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>> literature >>> >>> Hello- >>> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >>> Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what >>> they knew. >>> they >>> both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit >>> anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never >>> seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a >>> difficult or sparse topic. >>> best of luck >>> Carrie >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen >>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. >>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go >>>> to school. She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book >>>> is also set in the 19th century so back then that might have been >>>> more common. In the end she participates in some sort of >>>> harvesting contest to try to raise money to buy a brailler, and >>>> when she can't fathom how she's won she finds that the town kept >>>> putting their picked fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of >>>> their own. There is also a book I've come across called, "From >>>> Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't really read it. >>>> >>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>> BS"D >>>>> >>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>> >>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know >>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a >>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I >>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you >>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit >>>>> overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>> >>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%4 >>>> 0gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only >> Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >> eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sun Apr 28 00:44:29 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:44:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: References: <2FF6E0B8-593E-41C4-9418-A02E36FE624C@ymail.com> <019301ce4208$ad3b7690$07b263b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001ce43a9$8a9fb720$9fdf2560$@net> In that same series, a more major character becomes blind for a little while, although you don't see a whole lot of her. But from what you do see, she mainly operates on her other senses, mostly hearing and touch. At one point she does use a walking stick. Unfortunantly, she's mainly in a one place and you really don't see her interactions within the community while she's blind, but it was an interesting portrayal so thought it was worth mentioning, although I really don't know how much it will help. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature There are random blind characters all over the place in literature, though I've more often than not seen them in very minor roles which, though they are not central to the story, still tend to reflect the stereotypes we all know well. Also, Dr. Jernigan gave a banquet address called "Blindness: is Literature Against Us?," which can be found on nfb.org. I'm reading an epic fantasy series called A Song of Ice and Fire, and there is a very elderly blind man in a supporting role who is always being lead around by some servants, very slowly stumbling about on those rare occasions one of his servants isn't there, etc etc. On 4/27/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > I think the Avatar series, the TV show not the blue people, might have > a few novels out. If so there is a blind character in there who is > pretty cool, although the show plays off the stereotype that blind > people can use sound to know everything around them. Also, you might > want to consider some of the commics. Dare Devel is the one that most > readily comes to mind, but there are a few others that feature blind > characters too. > > On 4/27/13, melissa Green wrote: >> Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. >> But there is one scene that I would use that I think is appropriate >> and brings about discussiion. >> I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. >> >> Blessings, >> Sincerely, >> Melissa and Pj >> Find me on: >> Twitter melissa5674 >> facebook Melissa R Green >> Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Julie McGinnity" >> To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list" >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >> literature >> >> >> There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about a >> blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my opinion. >> But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind characters >> adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. Blind >> Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a little >> more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new book >> the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a movie a >> couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except for >> Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. >> >> On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: >>> Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures >>> in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the >>> radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. >>> Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like >>> The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for >>> ransom.--Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie >>> Gilmer >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in >>> literature >>> >>> Hello- >>> Two of my best friends from college were international students from >>> Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what >>> they knew. >>> they >>> both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit >>> anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never >>> seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a >>> difficult or sparse topic. >>> best of luck >>> Carrie >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen >>>> several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. >>>> There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to go >>>> to school. She seems super dependent in there to me, but the book >>>> is also set in the 19th century so back then that might have been >>>> more common. In the end she participates in some sort of >>>> harvesting contest to try to raise money to buy a brailler, and >>>> when she can't fathom how she's won she finds that the town kept >>>> putting their picked fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of >>>> their own. There is also a book I've come across called, "From >>>> Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't really read it. >>>> >>>> On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >>>>> BS"D >>>>> >>>>> Dear NABS, >>>>> >>>>> I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. >>>>> I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in >>>>> Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some >>>>> ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know >>>>> if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a >>>>> very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I >>>>> can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you >>>>> can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit >>>>> overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Leye-Shprintse >>>>> >>>>> Envoyé de mon iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>>>> 104 >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%4 >>>> 0gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only >> Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >> eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 01:33:06 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 19:33:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Kaiti, I'm comfortable either way, honestly. I sometimes like the flexibility that comes with using a reader; when I'm using jaws in the "distraction-free" room provided by my university, I have to depend on the technology other people have set up and I'm limited to taking a test in that one specific place. Using readers (especially when they happen to be teaching aids for my professors) means that we can take the test in the testing center, the disability resource center, the professor's office, a quiet alcove in the library, you get the point. That way I'm not stuck trying to find a time that I have free where the disability testing room is also open. I've also taken some classes that rely heavily on graphics, not just graphs. When my biology exam asks me to "identify the phase of mitosis shown in the illustration below", you'd better dang well believe that I want someone there to explain the picture to me. I've found my disability office prefers that to embossing the diagrams tactily; I've found that, nineteen times out of twenty, having someone describe the pictures to me works about as well as spending a few minutes examining the tactile graph. Sometimes I actually like it better because I can ask the person the questions I need to for me to understand the dang thing without having to spend all that extra time filtering out extraneous parts of the picture. If you haven't had a class like this in college, you almost certainly will at some point. Basically, I like using readers for multiple choice/fill in the blank/matching type things. I've also used scribes for the classes in which I depended on my good old perkins brailler; Deductive Logic comes to mind because of all the bizarre diagrams and tables which I didn't know how to render any other way. (for those classes, I would complete the work on my brailler and then dictate my finished product to the scribe when I was all done.) I use jaws and microsoft word (or word pad, or note pad, or HJ pad, or anything which lets me write), for free response essays. Sometimes this has meant that I've had a reader fill out the multiple choice section of a test with me and then let them read or study or do whatever while I wrote my essay with jaws. They've never seemed to mind. Best, Kirt On 4/27/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Ashley and all, > > For finals that I schedule through disability services I get the > standard accomodations of a computer with Jaws so I can write my > answers, up to double time to complete the exam if needed, and a > distraction-reduced environment (although that's automatic for > everyone who schedules through the ds office and not something I > specifically get). Unfortunately I can't really help with the reader > thing, as I have never really been in the habit of doing tests orally, > but hopefully this will answer some of your questions or help a > little. I feel like these accomodations are pretty fair and suit my > needs well. > > Just curious, under what conditions do you all use readers? I've used > Jaws on tests forever and really have never had a need to do it any > other way, except in high school occasionally my aid would describe > things on graphs but that's about it and I don't even have to deal > with that now in college stats. Just wondering why you would choose > to use a reader; Helga's explanation makes sense, but for those of us > who are capable of using the technology I don't get why you would > bring someone else into the picture. I've heard horror stories about > people who did this and had to retake entire tests because the reader > messed up a bunch of times, so I guess I'm not understanding the risk > or even in the best scenario how it would be necessary if you have the > skills to use Jaws and a computer. Any thoughts are appreciated. > > On 4/27/13, Helga wrote: >> Hi Ashley, this is Helga. I know what you mean when you don't receive the >> help you need for testing. I'm also in my finals right now as well. In >> order >> for me to do my tests my disability adviser's assistant read me and >> scribe >> the test for me. She was very competent in reading, but sometimes I ask >> her >> if she could repeat the questions again, and she did it. The reason I did >> that is because my first Language is not English even though I speak it. >> Math was one of the hardest test to do with a scribe because sometimes it >> took me a while to tell her where to write the numbers in the test. I'm >> actually blind and I use JAWS, but I didn't really use it for testing >> yet. >> By the way, how does it work? Have you talk to your professors about >> this? >> Also, I just wanted to tell you that for this semester my professors are >> the >> ones who read and write the answers of the questions of the tests for me. >> By >> the way, what classes are you taking right now that you are require to >> take >> finals exams? I'm just wondering. By the way, do you have any contact >> number >> where I can contact you in order to answer your questions in more detail, >> or >> email address? Thank you so much. God bless!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ashley Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 1:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Hi all, >> >> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do >> you >> feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, how >> are they? Are they competent readers? >> >> I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >> repeat >> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >> spoke >> to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to avoid >> this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark my >> answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I need >> a >> reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >> >> I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >> >> Look forward to seeing your responses. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 02:08:53 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:08:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C0FF1E7D90F4A35B1232DC1DBF9E416@OwnerPC> I have to take the readers they provide for tests. If I hire a reader outside class to study or read the text, sure I can interview and pick whom I want. But for tests and quizzes, I have to use their readers. -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a chem major and an A student. So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you interview them by having them read to you. On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, > but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and > capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But > they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem > you are dealing with right now and my next college. > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do > you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, > how are they? Are they competent readers? > > > > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were > incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > repeat > things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and > spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to > avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly > mark > my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I > need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > > > > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > > > > Look forward to seeing your responses. > > > > Ashley > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 02:16:54 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:16:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi helga, for tests with jaws, I simply read it in a word document and write my answers to questions in another file. either writing the letter of the answer for multiple choice or short answers or essay. if essay, I state the question I'm answering so its clear what my answer goes with since the questions are in a separate file. I use the command control f 6 to go between files. I prefer writing my answers in a separate file because if I need to go back to a question such as if I'm not sure and wish to read it again and think over it if there's time, I write a question mark by the number. For instance, writing 4. ? and next line write 5. A and write 6. c ?. This means in question 6 I think it is C but want to go back to it. Its good that your disability staff is good with reading and scribing. I haven't had a professor read and write answers for me yet though. That sounds neve racking; I've done them in the disability office or testing center, depending on what colege its in. The class I'm facing the potential problem with the reader and discrimination from the school is my world religion class. Not because of the professor who is helpful, but from the school failing to provide a competent reader. More on that next message. You can email me at bookwormahb at earthlink.net. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Helga Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi Ashley, this is Helga. I know what you mean when you don't receive the help you need for testing. I'm also in my finals right now as well. In order for me to do my tests my disability adviser's assistant read me and scribe the test for me. She was very competent in reading, but sometimes I ask her if she could repeat the questions again, and she did it. The reason I did that is because my first Language is not English even though I speak it. Math was one of the hardest test to do with a scribe because sometimes it took me a while to tell her where to write the numbers in the test. I'm actually blind and I use JAWS, but I didn't really use it for testing yet. By the way, how does it work? Have you talk to your professors about this? Also, I just wanted to tell you that for this semester my professors are the ones who read and write the answers of the questions of the tests for me. By the way, what classes are you taking right now that you are require to take finals exams? I'm just wondering. By the way, do you have any contact number where I can contact you in order to answer your questions in more detail, or email address? Thank you so much. God bless!! -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 1:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi all, As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, how are they? Are they competent readers? I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. Look forward to seeing your responses. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 02:21:21 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:21:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> Arielle, oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I need a competent reader for is religion. No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower grade using bad readers. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the department and should know the material well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. Arielle On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had > disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a > chem major and an A student. > > So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you > interview them by having them read to you. > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > >> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >> > Do >> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >> how are they? Are they competent readers? >> > >> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >> repeat >> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >> mark >> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >> > >> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >> > >> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >> > >> > Ashley >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 02:23:00 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:23:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <4C0FF1E7D90F4A35B1232DC1DBF9E416@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <4C0FF1E7D90F4A35B1232DC1DBF9E416@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Who is saying that you "have to" use university readers for tests? If it's the disability services office, they really don't have the authority to be making this kind of demand. If they say this, you can still hire your own reader and work with him or her without the DSS office's knowledge or approval. If it's the professor saying this, you might have less recourse, but I'd still suggest talking to the professor about other options, such as having the professor or a TA serve as the reader. You need a reader for testing who is competent and knows the subject well enough to describe graphics. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > I have to take the readers they provide for tests. If I hire a reader > outside class to study or read the text, sure I can interview and pick whom > > I want. > But for tests and quizzes, I have to use their readers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne Germano > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:00 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had > disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a > chem major and an A student. > > So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you > interview them by having them read to you. > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > >> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >> > Do >> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >> how are they? Are they competent readers? >> > >> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >> repeat >> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >> mark >> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >> > >> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >> > >> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >> > >> > Ashley >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 02:25:31 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:25:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <8801A3F719AD43EFA786AAF44337044C@OwnerPC> Kaiti, I also get the accomodations of a computer and extended time. I can use a reader if requested. Problem is most readers really suck at reading. I explained why I use them in another message. In this case, a reader can say what options I have left. the upcoming exam is matching plus other things. I often feel a reader is faster despite the reader's short comings. If it works for you on a pc, that is good. but for me hearing multiple choice exams with a reader and the fact that they can pause after each choice or reread say choices A and C helps me out to pick the right choices. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley and all, For finals that I schedule through disability services I get the standard accomodations of a computer with Jaws so I can write my answers, up to double time to complete the exam if needed, and a distraction-reduced environment (although that's automatic for everyone who schedules through the ds office and not something I specifically get). Unfortunately I can't really help with the reader thing, as I have never really been in the habit of doing tests orally, but hopefully this will answer some of your questions or help a little. I feel like these accomodations are pretty fair and suit my needs well. Just curious, under what conditions do you all use readers? I've used Jaws on tests forever and really have never had a need to do it any other way, except in high school occasionally my aid would describe things on graphs but that's about it and I don't even have to deal with that now in college stats. Just wondering why you would choose to use a reader; Helga's explanation makes sense, but for those of us who are capable of using the technology I don't get why you would bring someone else into the picture. I've heard horror stories about people who did this and had to retake entire tests because the reader messed up a bunch of times, so I guess I'm not understanding the risk or even in the best scenario how it would be necessary if you have the skills to use Jaws and a computer. Any thoughts are appreciated. On 4/27/13, Helga wrote: > Hi Ashley, this is Helga. I know what you mean when you don't receive the > help you need for testing. I'm also in my finals right now as well. In > order > for me to do my tests my disability adviser's assistant read me and scribe > the test for me. She was very competent in reading, but sometimes I ask > her > if she could repeat the questions again, and she did it. The reason I did > that is because my first Language is not English even though I speak it. > Math was one of the hardest test to do with a scribe because sometimes it > took me a while to tell her where to write the numbers in the test. I'm > actually blind and I use JAWS, but I didn't really use it for testing yet. > By the way, how does it work? Have you talk to your professors about this? > Also, I just wanted to tell you that for this semester my professors are > the > ones who read and write the answers of the questions of the tests for me. > By > the way, what classes are you taking right now that you are require to > take > finals exams? I'm just wondering. By the way, do you have any contact > number > where I can contact you in order to answer your questions in more detail, > or > email address? Thank you so much. God bless!! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 1:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Hi all, > > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. Do > you > feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, how > are they? Are they competent readers? > > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were > incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > repeat > things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and > spoke > to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to avoid > this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly mark my > answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I need > a > reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > > Look forward to seeing your responses. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 02:28:37 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:28:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the professor to make. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>> and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>> problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>> > Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>> > >>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>> to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>> > >>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>> > >>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 02:34:18 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:34:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <4C0FF1E7D90F4A35B1232DC1DBF9E416@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <517C8AAA.1090707@tysdomain.com> >But for tests and quizzes, I have to use their readers. the DSS office does have the authority to make a demand like this if it is an extension of the actual school policy. Hiring a reader for a test doesn't really insure that you'll have someone that the staff can trust, so they like to try to provide readers which is probably the first issue. On 4/27/2013 8:23 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Who is saying that you "have to" use university readers for tests? > If it's the disability services office, they really don't have the > authority to be making this kind of demand. If they say this, you can > still hire your own reader and work with him or her without the DSS > office's knowledge or approval. > If it's the professor saying this, you might have less recourse, but > I'd still suggest talking to the professor about other options, such > as having the professor or a TA serve as the reader. You need a reader > for testing who is competent and knows the subject well enough to > describe graphics. > > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> I have to take the readers they provide for tests. If I hire a reader >> outside class to study or read the text, sure I can interview and pick whom >> >> I want. >> But for tests and quizzes, I have to use their readers. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Suzanne Germano >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:00 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>> Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> >>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 03:00:51 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:00:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Arielle, oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I need a competent reader for is religion. No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower grade using bad readers. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the department and should know the material well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. Arielle On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had > disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a > chem major and an A student. > > So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you > interview them by having them read to you. > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > >> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >> > Do >> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >> how are they? Are they competent readers? >> > >> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >> repeat >> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >> mark >> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >> > >> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >> > >> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >> > >> > Ashley >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 03:01:53 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:01:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <001e01ce42f3$92ccbb20$b8663160$@gmail.com> If it is not sufficient for you to do well on an exam; if the reading is causing you to do worse, then that is a problem that you may want to really sit down and address. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the professor to make. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>> and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>> problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>> > Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>> > >>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>> to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>> > >>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>> > >>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 03:03:14 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:03:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with school policy. Arielle On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>> and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>> problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>> > Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>> > >>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>> to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>> > >>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>> > >>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 03:08:34 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:08:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002001ce42f4$816d7210$84485630$@gmail.com> You have the right to proper accommodations for a test. Your intelligence and skill is to be tested, not your ability to understand or interpret what the reader is saying. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with school policy. Arielle On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > taking classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. > The class I need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. I can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and > have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader to > the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option > to bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. > Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower grade > using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >> had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >> person was a chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >> you interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>> with competent and capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few >>> words incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and >>> my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>> > Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>> > scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>> > >>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>> > were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read >>> fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I >>> took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a >>> reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as go back >>> to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should be given a >>> competent reader. >>> > >>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>> > >>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.c > om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.e >>> du >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 03:11:26 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:11:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> of course it sounds like a possible ADA case. And this is why nothing ever gets done. Something happens and everyone screaches "xomg ADA lets sue," and there are people happy to sue everyone because they might've made a funny face and that description of that funny face was not in the ADA manual. And that was basically my point. If the professor is working with the DSS office to figure out a way for you to take the test and they say no reader and that's what's agreed on between them, then there won't be a reader hired from outside. Ultimately it's up to the professor, but I'm just stating that I can see why there would be issues hiring readers from outside to take tests. On 4/27/2013 9:03 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > school policy. > > Arielle > > On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking >> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >> need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I >> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue >> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking >> up material and research, but >> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >> >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not >> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >>> chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >>> interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>> colleges, >>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>> and >>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>> problem >>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>> Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>> repeat >>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>> to >>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>> mark >>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> >>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 03:20:46 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:20:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517C958E.1080904@tysdomain.com> Justin: Your timestamps on your messages are all sorts of broken--perhaps you could set your clock to the right time? I get 4 unread messages and I have to go back through kept messages to find yours and read/delete. On 4/26/2013 9:00 PM, justin williams wrote: > Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>> Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> >>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 03:27:39 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:27:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <002201ce42f7$2c19b280$844d1780$@gmail.com> A d A is last resort, but if her grade slips because of bad reading, then what is next?. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations of course it sounds like a possible ADA case. And this is why nothing ever gets done. Something happens and everyone screaches "xomg ADA lets sue," and there are people happy to sue everyone because they might've made a funny face and that description of that funny face was not in the ADA manual. And that was basically my point. If the professor is working with the DSS office to figure out a way for you to take the test and they say no reader and that's what's agreed on between them, then there won't be a reader hired from outside. Ultimately it's up to the professor, but I'm just stating that I can see why there would be issues hiring readers from outside to take tests. On 4/27/2013 9:03 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > school policy. > > Arielle > > On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >> taking classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. >> The class I need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >> Gosh. I can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers >> and have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader to >> the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >> >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option >> to bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>> had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>> person was a chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>> with competent and capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a >>>> few words incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and >>>> my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>> Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>> scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>> were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and >>>> read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams >>>> I took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me >>>> and a reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as >>>> go back to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should >>>> be given a competent reader. >>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> >>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.c >> om >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>> edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 03:27:57 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:27:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <517C958E.1080904@tysdomain.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C958E.1080904@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <002401ce42f7$3684ef00$a38ecd00$@gmail.com> Sorry about the broken time. How do I repair that? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations Justin: Your timestamps on your messages are all sorts of broken--perhaps you could set your clock to the right time? I get 4 unread messages and I have to go back through kept messages to find yours and read/delete. On 4/26/2013 9:00 PM, justin williams wrote: > Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>> Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> >>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 03:40:23 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:40:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <002401ce42f7$3684ef00$a38ecd00$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C958E.1080904@tysdomain.com> <002401ce42f7$3684ef00$a38ecd00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517C9A27.1080709@tysdomain.com> if you're on windows seven, just hit start, type date and either hit enter on date and time or arrow down to date and time. you'll need to set your time zone and everything else, but it should get your timestamps back on track. On 4/26/2013 9:27 PM, justin williams wrote: > Sorry about the broken time. How do I repair that? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, > Tyler > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations > > Justin: > Your timestamps on your messages are all sorts of broken--perhaps you > could set your clock to the right time? I get 4 unread messages and I > have to go back through kept messages to find yours and read/delete. > On 4/26/2013 9:00 PM, justin williams wrote: >> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking >> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >> need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I >> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue >> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking >> up material and research, but >> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > legal >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not >> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >>> chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >>> interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > colleges, >>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > and >>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > problem >>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>> Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>> repeat >>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws > to >>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>> mark >>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> >>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 03:47:21 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:47:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <517C9A27.1080709@tysdomain.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C958E.1080904@tysdomain.com> <002401ce42f7$3684ef00$a38ecd00$@gmail.com> <517C9A27.1080709@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <002601ce42f9$ec66e7e0$c534b7a0$@gmail.com> Thanks man. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations if you're on windows seven, just hit start, type date and either hit enter on date and time or arrow down to date and time. you'll need to set your time zone and everything else, but it should get your timestamps back on track. On 4/26/2013 9:27 PM, justin williams wrote: > Sorry about the broken time. How do I repair that? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] For Justin: was Re: the test accomodations > > Justin: > Your timestamps on your messages are all sorts of broken--perhaps you > could set your clock to the right time? I get 4 unread messages and I > have to go back through kept messages to find yours and read/delete. > On 4/26/2013 9:00 PM, justin williams wrote: >> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >> taking classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. >> The class I need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >> Gosh. I can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers >> and have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader to >> the exam. Personally, I think this is a > legal >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option >> to bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>> had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>> person was a chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > colleges, >>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with >>>> competent > and >>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>> But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the >>>> same > problem >>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>> Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>> scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>> were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and >>>> read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams >>>> I took with jaws > to >>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>> directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as go back to >>>> questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should be given a >>>> competent reader. >>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> >>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.c >> om >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>> edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain >> .com > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 03:52:40 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:52:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Maybe you should go to your professor(like others have suggested) and see what you can work out. Even if the professor doesn't want you bringing in your own reader, you might be able to get a reader from the department who knows how to read the material. I would strongly recommend that anyone using readers get one from the department. I mean that if you are taking a biology class for instance, you talk to that department and the disability services office to use a student from that department as your reader. Like Arielle and Kaiti, I prefer to use Jaws when taking tests. It is faster, and with another student, I always felt judged when taking tests. Crazy, I know, but I used to be a lot more anxious about tests. To answer Kaiti, I used readers for a while two years ago when my computer was sick with a very bad virus. Other than that, the only thing I used a reader for was music theory class. This was before I had the music software to complete assignments independently. I had a reader and scribe who would read assignments and tests to me and write my answers. This person was a student the music department found for me. I also had a reader for my first semester of German classes at the university level. She read my tests to me. But I found that even with German, it was easier to use jaws. But in that case as well, the department found me a reader who could read in German. Although I still miss the days when I got all my tests in Braille, being able to fill out answers and write essay tests on the computer is good enough. I think I prefer it because I know that with jaws, I can finish the test as fast as the other students, so I take the test in class. That is really freeing. On 4/27/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > > of course it sounds like a possible ADA case. And this is why nothing > ever gets done. Something happens and everyone screaches "xomg ADA lets > sue," and there are people happy to sue everyone because they might've > made a funny face and that description of that funny face was not in the > ADA manual. > > And that was basically my point. If the professor is working with the > DSS office to figure out a way for you to take the test and they say no > reader and that's what's agreed on between them, then there won't be a > reader hired from outside. Ultimately it's up to the professor, but I'm > just stating that I can see why there would be issues hiring readers > from outside to take tests. > On 4/27/2013 9:03 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >> school policy. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>> a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>> you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>>> Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>> I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> >>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 03:53:14 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 23:53:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <002201ce42f7$2c19b280$844d1780$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> <002201ce42f7$2c19b280$844d1780$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I see both sides; I get Tyler's concern from the perspective of the DS staff, because one of their jobs is that if they have a student who asks to take a test in their office legally they have to follow certain guidelines. One of those is making sure they follow the school policy and make sure the testing is fair. On the other hand, if they're providing a reader who causes someone to get a grade they don't deserve, either potentially higher or lower based on what the reader does or their clarity in reading, that is cause for concern too. DS offices are supposed to hire readers who can be neutral, in the middle ground with clear speech, but of course not all colleges are created equal, and certainly not all college disability offices are either. But, from my personal experiences thus far, I think what Arielle is saying is right. Disability offices can't demand you take every test with them, and for the tests you decide to handle directly with the professor they have no control over. If it's okay with the professor either they or someone else who is a competent reader can administer tests, give it directly to the prof, and you can totally circumnavigate disability services and the issues associated with their readers. That might be your best bet in avoiding this issue, but I'd definitely keep an eye on it in case this persists and is a problem for other classes in the future. It's not worth getting worked up over at the end of the year, as long as you do how you should on the final exam you should be fine. I would suggest making arrangements with the professor as soon as possible and see what can be worked out. Ashley, that is an interesting system with the question marks. I didn't think of doing that, (I usually just write directly into the test document, pick my multiple choice answers by marking an X in front of the letter or the number that matches the letter when matching terms,) but it works. I may have to try that myself. Good luck on your World Religions final; I'm taking a similar course this semester too, although our final is just our last paper of the course on modern religious philosophy. Lots of Nietche and Bonhofer, the religious philosophies of MLK vs Malcolm X, stuff like that. Good luck. On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > A d A is last resort, but if her grade slips because of bad reading, then > what is next?. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, > Tyler > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > > of course it sounds like a possible ADA case. And this is why nothing ever > gets done. Something happens and everyone screaches "xomg ADA lets sue," > and > there are people happy to sue everyone because they might've made a funny > face and that description of that funny face was not in the ADA manual. > > And that was basically my point. If the professor is working with the DSS > office to figure out a way for you to take the test and they say no reader > and that's what's agreed on between them, then there won't be a reader > hired > from outside. Ultimately it's up to the professor, but I'm just stating > that > I can see why there would be issues hiring readers from outside to take > tests. > On 4/27/2013 9:03 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >> school policy. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. >>> The class I need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>> Gosh. I can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers >>> and have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to > do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader to >>> the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option >>> to bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>>> had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>> person was a chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>> with competent and capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a >>>>> few words incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and >>>>> my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>>> Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>> scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and >>>>> read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams >>>>> I took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me >>>>> and a reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as well as >>>>> go back to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I should >>>>> be given a competent reader. >>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> >>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >>> gmail.c >>> om >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>> edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 04:00:21 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 00:00:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <002801ce42fb$bda58950$38f09bf0$@gmail.com> It is easier if you have someone who knows the material. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Maybe you should go to your professor(like others have suggested) and see what you can work out. Even if the professor doesn't want you bringing in your own reader, you might be able to get a reader from the department who knows how to read the material. I would strongly recommend that anyone using readers get one from the department. I mean that if you are taking a biology class for instance, you talk to that department and the disability services office to use a student from that department as your reader. Like Arielle and Kaiti, I prefer to use Jaws when taking tests. It is faster, and with another student, I always felt judged when taking tests. Crazy, I know, but I used to be a lot more anxious about tests. To answer Kaiti, I used readers for a while two years ago when my computer was sick with a very bad virus. Other than that, the only thing I used a reader for was music theory class. This was before I had the music software to complete assignments independently. I had a reader and scribe who would read assignments and tests to me and write my answers. This person was a student the music department found for me. I also had a reader for my first semester of German classes at the university level. She read my tests to me. But I found that even with German, it was easier to use jaws. But in that case as well, the department found me a reader who could read in German. Although I still miss the days when I got all my tests in Braille, being able to fill out answers and write essay tests on the computer is good enough. I think I prefer it because I know that with jaws, I can finish the test as fast as the other students, so I take the test in class. That is really freeing. On 4/27/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > > of course it sounds like a possible ADA case. And this is why nothing > ever gets done. Something happens and everyone screaches "xomg ADA > lets sue," and there are people happy to sue everyone because they > might've made a funny face and that description of that funny face was > not in the ADA manual. > > And that was basically my point. If the professor is working with the > DSS office to figure out a way for you to take the test and they say > no reader and that's what's agreed on between them, then there won't > be a reader hired from outside. Ultimately it's up to the professor, > but I'm just stating that I can see why there would be issues hiring > readers from outside to take tests. > On 4/27/2013 9:03 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back >> about things like that, even if they are technically not quite in >> line with school policy. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. >>> The class I need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have >>> a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do >>> this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader to >>> the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option >>> to bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day >>> before the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>>> had disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>> person was a chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>> with competent and capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a >>>>> few words incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope >>>>> I don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now >>>>> and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>>> Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>> scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>> and read fast and spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many >>>>> exams I took with jaws to avoid this; I feel this way is slower >>>>> for me and a reader can directly mark my answers on a scantron as >>>>> well as go back to questions I missed. If I need a reader scribe I >>>>> should be given a competent reader. >>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> >>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.c >>> om >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu >>>>> .edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gma >>>> il.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain >> .com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; > he that dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. > com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 04:01:22 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 00:01:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <002a01ce42fb$e1a2cb10$a4e86130$@gmail.com> The way it sounds is that the college is very unflexible. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Maybe you should go to your professor(like others have suggested) and see what you can work out. Even if the professor doesn't want you bringing in your own reader, you might be able to get a reader from the department who knows how to read the material. I would strongly recommend that anyone using readers get one from the department. I mean that if you are taking a biology class for instance, you talk to that department and the disability services office to use a student from that department as your reader. Like Arielle and Kaiti, I prefer to use Jaws when taking tests. It is faster, and with another student, I always felt judged when taking tests. Crazy, I know, but I used to be a lot more anxious about tests. To answer Kaiti, I used readers for a while two years ago when my computer was sick with a very bad virus. Other than that, the only thing I used a reader for was music theory class. This was before I had the music software to complete assignments independently. I had a reader and scribe who would read assignments and tests to me and write my answers. This person was a student the music department found for me. I also had a reader for my first semester of German classes at the university level. She read my tests to me. But I found that even with German, it was easier to use jaws. But in that case as well, the department found me a reader who could read in German. Although I still miss the days when I got all my tests in Braille, being able to fill out answers and write essay tests on the computer is good enough. I think I prefer it because I know that with jaws, I can finish the test as fast as the other students, so I take the test in class. That is really freeing. On 4/27/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > > of course it sounds like a possible ADA case. And this is why nothing > ever gets done. Something happens and everyone screaches "xomg ADA lets > sue," and there are people happy to sue everyone because they might've > made a funny face and that description of that funny face was not in the > ADA manual. > > And that was basically my point. If the professor is working with the > DSS office to figure out a way for you to take the test and they say no > reader and that's what's agreed on between them, then there won't be a > reader hired from outside. Ultimately it's up to the professor, but I'm > just stating that I can see why there would be issues hiring readers > from outside to take tests. > On 4/27/2013 9:03 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >> school policy. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>> a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>> you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>>> Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>> I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> >>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 04:15:39 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:15:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><4C0FF1E7D90F4A35B1232DC1DBF9E416@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <3B053F209AD9472A97C9D989A2DDCCCC@OwnerPC> Arielle, The disability coordinator told me I have to use their readers. I know I need a competent reader familiar with the subject matter which is why I'm so stressed now. I am also going to tell the professor the situation. She'll understand how unfair it is to me and maybe advocate with me or come up with a reader I can use. I cannot use my own readers though; they got their own exams nor will I pay out of pocket to pay for something the school needs to provide. I think an option may be to use another staff member from the department. Maybe I can braille the terms I need for one section of the test as well. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Who is saying that you "have to" use university readers for tests? If it's the disability services office, they really don't have the authority to be making this kind of demand. If they say this, you can still hire your own reader and work with him or her without the DSS office's knowledge or approval. If it's the professor saying this, you might have less recourse, but I'd still suggest talking to the professor about other options, such as having the professor or a TA serve as the reader. You need a reader for testing who is competent and knows the subject well enough to describe graphics. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > I have to take the readers they provide for tests. If I hire a reader > outside class to study or read the text, sure I can interview and pick > whom > > I want. > But for tests and quizzes, I have to use their readers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne Germano > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:00 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had > disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a > chem major and an A student. > > So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you > interview them by having them read to you. > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: > >> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between colleges, >> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent and >> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same problem >> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >> > Do >> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >> how are they? Are they competent readers? >> > >> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >> repeat >> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws to >> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >> mark >> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >> > >> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >> > >> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >> > >> > Ashley >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 04:18:48 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:18:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> Arielle, I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check the student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have another staff member or another student assist me who can read. My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but when I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to follow their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the professor to make. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > legal > > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>> and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>> problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>> > Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>> > >>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>> to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>> > >>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>> > >>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 04:19:51 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:19:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <517C8AAA.1090707@tysdomain.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><4C0FF1E7D90F4A35B1232DC1DBF9E416@OwnerPC> <517C8AAA.1090707@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Tyler, Right. I believe they have the right to make this policy. I only wish such readers were competent readers. I totally see your points here. -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >But for tests and quizzes, I have to use their readers. the DSS office does have the authority to make a demand like this if it is an extension of the actual school policy. Hiring a reader for a test doesn't really insure that you'll have someone that the staff can trust, so they like to try to provide readers which is probably the first issue. On 4/27/2013 8:23 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Who is saying that you "have to" use university readers for tests? > If it's the disability services office, they really don't have the > authority to be making this kind of demand. If they say this, you can > still hire your own reader and work with him or her without the DSS > office's knowledge or approval. > If it's the professor saying this, you might have less recourse, but > I'd still suggest talking to the professor about other options, such > as having the professor or a TA serve as the reader. You need a reader > for testing who is competent and knows the subject well enough to > describe graphics. > > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> I have to take the readers they provide for tests. If I hire a reader >> outside class to study or read the text, sure I can interview and pick >> whom >> >> I want. >> But for tests and quizzes, I have to use their readers. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Suzanne Germano >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:00 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>> and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>> problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>> Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>> to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> >>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 04:22:38 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:22:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Arielle, So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange for a private reader I hire to take the exam. Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates school policy. Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with school policy. Arielle On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > legal > > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>> and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>> problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>> > Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>> > >>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>> to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>> > >>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>> > >>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > om >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 04:26:14 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:26:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><517C935E.5080002@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hello all, Keep in mind that as I said its community college. the department is small. All faculty are administering their own exams. I might suggest that my dss counselor seek someone from the department to read the exam, but I don't think this will be an option since its finals. I'm just stressed that an incompetent reader my hinder my grade on the exam. -----Original Message----- From: Julie McGinnity Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Maybe you should go to your professor(like others have suggested) and see what you can work out. Even if the professor doesn't want you bringing in your own reader, you might be able to get a reader from the department who knows how to read the material. I would strongly recommend that anyone using readers get one from the department. I mean that if you are taking a biology class for instance, you talk to that department and the disability services office to use a student from that department as your reader. Like Arielle and Kaiti, I prefer to use Jaws when taking tests. It is faster, and with another student, I always felt judged when taking tests. Crazy, I know, but I used to be a lot more anxious about tests. To answer Kaiti, I used readers for a while two years ago when my computer was sick with a very bad virus. Other than that, the only thing I used a reader for was music theory class. This was before I had the music software to complete assignments independently. I had a reader and scribe who would read assignments and tests to me and write my answers. This person was a student the music department found for me. I also had a reader for my first semester of German classes at the university level. She read my tests to me. But I found that even with German, it was easier to use jaws. But in that case as well, the department found me a reader who could read in German. Although I still miss the days when I got all my tests in Braille, being able to fill out answers and write essay tests on the computer is good enough. I think I prefer it because I know that with jaws, I can finish the test as fast as the other students, so I take the test in class. That is really freeing. On 4/27/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > > of course it sounds like a possible ADA case. And this is why nothing > ever gets done. Something happens and everyone screaches "xomg ADA lets > sue," and there are people happy to sue everyone because they might've > made a funny face and that description of that funny face was not in the > ADA manual. > > And that was basically my point. If the professor is working with the > DSS office to figure out a way for you to take the test and they say no > reader and that's what's agreed on between them, then there won't be a > reader hired from outside. Ultimately it's up to the professor, but I'm > just stating that I can see why there would be issues hiring readers > from outside to take tests. > On 4/27/2013 9:03 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >> school policy. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>> a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>> you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>>>> Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>> I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> >>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 04:32:54 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:32:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step out of their office. I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other accommodations, that's their decision to make. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange for > > a private reader I hire to take the exam. > Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates school > > policy. > Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the exam > and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > school policy. > > Arielle > > On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >> taking >> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >> need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >> I >> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >> clue >> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >> looking >> up material and research, but >> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >> legal >> >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not >> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>> a >>> chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>> you >>> interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>> colleges, >>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>> and >>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>> problem >>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi all, >>>> > >>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>> > Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> > >>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>> > were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>> repeat >>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>> to >>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>> mark >>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> > >>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> > >>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> > >>>> > Ashley >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 04:34:24 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:34:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be willing to work something out with you that's fair. Arielle On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > out of their office. > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > to ensure you don't cheat. > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange >> for >> >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates >> school >> >> policy. >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the >> exam >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >> school policy. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>> a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>> you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi all, >>>>> > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>> > get. >>>>> > Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>> > scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>> > were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>> I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>> > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> > >>>>> > Ashley >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> > for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 04:45:54 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:45:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem Message-ID: Hi all, This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less than adaquate readers issued by this community college. But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking a world religions final covering the monotheistic religions. Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the Baha’I faith among other religions. The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she who said it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a reader competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some Arabic vocabulary to match with definitions. We also have other parts of the test . I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired time as well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the Baha’I faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, Sawm, Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match readers based on subject matter competency, that they only base on availability. She said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of course do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This would help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who likely won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I doubt I can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, they would not provide someone proficient in math. It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar with math to read a math exam. Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send privately. Its appalling. The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see what we can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them with definitions. Ashley From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 04:59:41 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:59:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your DSS counselor is definitely being negligent, but at a community college they might not have enough readers to match every subject. It's unfortunate but might just be a limited-resources issue. Anyway, we've all given you several suggestions of ways to bypass an office that isn't meeting your needs. I hope at least one of these suggestions will work out for you. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less > than adaquate readers issued by this community college. > But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking a world > religions final covering the monotheistic religions. > > Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the Baha’I > faith among other religions. > The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she who said > it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a reader > competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some Arabic > vocabulary to match with definitions. > We also have other parts of the test . > > > I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired time as > well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I > explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the Baha’I > faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, Sawm, > Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. > > The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match readers > based on subject matter competency, that they only base on availability. She > said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of course > do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. > > I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This would > help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who likely > won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for > suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. > > I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I doubt I > can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss > counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, they > would not provide someone proficient in math. > > It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read > adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d > really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar > with math to read a math exam. > Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send > privately. > Its appalling. > > The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see what we > can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I > probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them with > definitions. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 05:20:01 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:20:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <747822F6E1F64F8F8995EF6292E6F90A@OwnerPC> Arielle, Thank you. I think its an issue that the dss doesn't want to go the extra mile in helping out. She said she would not do it for other subjects. I thought legally they had to provide something workable. I will speak to the professor about this and see what she can offer. I can not use a TA as we don't have them. It might just be that I bring a list of these foreign terms with me to aide in reading them and knowing what they are. Maybe the professor knows someone in the department that I'm unaware of that can assist me. I doubt it; it’s a small department but worth asking about. I just checked our disability service webpage on the website. No policies are on there about test taking and readers. I'll check the handbook as well once I get one. Thanks for the suggestions. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 12:59 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem Your DSS counselor is definitely being negligent, but at a community college they might not have enough readers to match every subject. It's unfortunate but might just be a limited-resources issue. Anyway, we've all given you several suggestions of ways to bypass an office that isn't meeting your needs. I hope at least one of these suggestions will work out for you. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less > than adaquate readers issued by this community college. > But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking a > world > religions final covering the monotheistic religions. > > Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the Baha’I > faith among other religions. > The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she who > said > it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a reader > competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some Arabic > vocabulary to match with definitions. > We also have other parts of the test . > > > I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired time as > well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I > explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the Baha’I > faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, Sawm, > Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. > > The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match readers > based on subject matter competency, that they only base on availability. > She > said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of > course > do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. > > I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This > would > help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who likely > won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for > suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. > > I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I doubt > I > can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss > counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, they > would not provide someone proficient in math. > > It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read > adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d > really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar > with math to read a math exam. > Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send > privately. > Its appalling. > > The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see what > we > can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I > probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them with > definitions. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 05:49:19 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:49:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions Message-ID: Hi all, So how do you all like to study? Some techniques to review material such as reading highlighted text are not available to us. Same with marking passages with post-it notes. I do take notes while reading which is an integral part of studying for tests. I often find my notes though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take shorter notes from those original notes or I summarize the chapter. I use a vr stream or my vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot remember what number I assigned to each passage. How does that highlight book mark feature work? This may help in marking key words or concepts such as theories defined for sociology. How do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot to memorize. I struggled with that in foreign languages too. So far I simply write the definition and read it and say it aloud; then state it from memory without my notes. Many students use flash cards they say. But I cannot do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix up the words and definitions like you would do with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is just mix up the order of words as I study them on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the middle or some random point. Also, has looking up information been a challenge? It is for me. The braille note does not search across files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and key things as sighted people do. I usually end up asking my reader to assist me in looking it up in the book. I write down what the book says; often in my own words and make note of the page. If I have the book through learning ally, I can go back to the page if needed then. A good reader will check the index for key terms and words that resemble key terms. If its not there, I go back to my notes and search. I put the topic for the class on the top of my notes which often helps me in finding the right area or file to look in. I will write the date as well on the top of my electronic page. I create a file in my braille note with key items for review. I find it helpful to have a study guide from the professor and follow that if we have one. I’d use the practice tests on the online websites if they were accessible; but often they’re not. Sometimes the textbook itself has review questions and I might use those to review if it looks helpful. If I’m totally stuck on some concepts and know its on the final, I ask my professors. I find that usually they’re helpful in office hours. Ashley From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 05:56:44 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 23:56:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> I use a program called QRead which allows me to open just about any textbook format and save unlimited bookmarks, like leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my own notes of course, in class and while reading. And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually getting really good at these days, in lifht of the events rhat took place at my old university in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! -Jamie Principato Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Hi all, > > So how do you all like to study? Some techniques to review material such as reading highlighted text are not available to us. Same with marking passages with post-it notes. I do take notes while reading which is an integral part of studying for tests. > I often find my notes though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take shorter notes from those original notes or I summarize the chapter. > I use a vr stream or my vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot remember what number I assigned to each passage. How does that highlight book mark feature work? This may help in marking key words or concepts such as theories defined for sociology. > > How do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot to memorize. > I struggled with that in foreign languages too. > > So far I simply write the definition and read it and say it aloud; then state it from memory without my notes. Many students use flash cards they say. But > I cannot do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix up the words and definitions like you would do with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is just mix up the order of words as I study them on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the middle or some random point. > > Also, has looking up information been a challenge? It is for me. The braille note does not search across files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and key things as sighted people do. I usually end up asking my reader to assist me in looking it up in the book. I write down what the book says; often in my own words and make note of the page. If I have the book through learning ally, I can go back to the page if needed then. > A good reader will check the index for key terms and words that resemble key terms. > > If its not there, I go back to my notes and search. I put the topic for the class on the top of my notes which often helps me in finding the right area or file to look in. I will write the date as well on the top of my electronic page. I create a file in my braille note with key items for review. I find it helpful to have a study guide from the professor and follow that if we have one. > > I’d use the practice tests on the online websites if they were accessible; but often they’re not. > Sometimes the textbook itself has review questions and I might use those to review if it looks helpful. > If I’m totally stuck on some concepts and know its on the final, I ask my professors. I find that usually they’re helpful in office hours. > > Ashley > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 06:01:14 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 02:01:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> References: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> Is QRead a program for the pc/ -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:57 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] study suggestions I use a program called QRead which allows me to open just about any textbook format and save unlimited bookmarks, like leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my own notes of course, in class and while reading. And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually getting really good at these days, in lifht of the events rhat took place at my old university in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! -Jamie Principato Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Hi all, > > So how do you all like to study? Some techniques to review material such as reading highlighted text are not available to us. Same with marking passages with post-it notes. I do take notes while reading which is an integral part of studying for tests. > I often find my notes though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take shorter notes from those original notes or I summarize the chapter. > I use a vr stream or my vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot remember what number I assigned to each passage. How does that highlight book mark feature work? This may help in marking key words or concepts such as theories defined for sociology. > > How do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot to memorize. > I struggled with that in foreign languages too. > > So far I simply write the definition and read it and say it aloud; > then state it from memory without my notes. Many students use flash cards they say. But I cannot do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix up the words and definitions like you would do with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is just mix up the order of words as I study them on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the middle or some random point. > > Also, has looking up information been a challenge? It is for me. The braille note does not search across files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and key things as sighted people do. I usually end up asking my reader to assist me in looking it up in the book. I write down what the book says; often in my own words and make note of the page. If I have the book through learning ally, I can go back to the page if needed then. > A good reader will check the index for key terms and words that resemble key terms. > > If its not there, I go back to my notes and search. I put the topic for the class on the top of my notes which often helps me in finding the right area or file to look in. I will write the date as well on the top of my electronic page. I create a file in my braille note with key items for review. I find it helpful to have a study guide from the professor and follow that if we have one. > > I’d use the practice tests on the online websites if they were accessible; but often they’re not. > Sometimes the textbook itself has review questions and I might use those to review if it looks helpful. > If I’m totally stuck on some concepts and know its on the final, I ask my professors. I find that usually they’re helpful in office hours. > > Ashley > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma > il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sun Apr 28 06:06:51 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 02:06:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem In-Reply-To: <747822F6E1F64F8F8995EF6292E6F90A@OwnerPC> References: <747822F6E1F64F8F8995EF6292E6F90A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that the Adviser's assistant who used to read me left on January, and as I told you before on this semester my Professors are the ones who read me the tests. I'm actually going to be taking English Composition 2 this summer, and since the reader who used to read me my tests is gone, I don't know who will read me my test this summer. I actually attend Palm Beach State College, which was a community college before. I actually have some issues with my Disability Adviser at my college. I actually like the idea of using JAWS in order to take my tests and quizzes since I never try it before; I'm probably thinking in using JAWS on this summer term when I'm taking my English Composition 2 class. Also, I'm actually thinking in telling my professor to tell my DSS adviser to put my test in Braille, in order for me to follow the reader, since my my first Language is not English, and also since my prefer way of reading is Braille. Also, I just would like to ask you, Where did you get the personal readers that help you study and do your research? I'm just curious since I'm in my Freshman year in college still, and I'm studying to become a Lawyer; I would really like to have that, since she could probably help me do my assignments, since I'm still learning to work with JAWS. I just would like to know. Also, Did you use JAWS in order to do your English Composition 2 class tests and quizzes, and it worked? I'm just curious. Thank you so much and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem Arielle, Thank you. I think its an issue that the dss doesn't want to go the extra mile in helping out. She said she would not do it for other subjects. I thought legally they had to provide something workable. I will speak to the professor about this and see what she can offer. I can not use a TA as we don't have them. It might just be that I bring a list of these foreign terms with me to aide in reading them and knowing what they are. Maybe the professor knows someone in the department that I'm unaware of that can assist me. I doubt it; it’s a small department but worth asking about. I just checked our disability service webpage on the website. No policies are on there about test taking and readers. I'll check the handbook as well once I get one. Thanks for the suggestions. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 12:59 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem Your DSS counselor is definitely being negligent, but at a community college they might not have enough readers to match every subject. It's unfortunate but might just be a limited-resources issue. Anyway, we've all given you several suggestions of ways to bypass an office that isn't meeting your needs. I hope at least one of these suggestions will work out for you. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less > than adaquate readers issued by this community college. > But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking a > world > religions final covering the monotheistic religions. > > Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the Baha’I > faith among other religions. > The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she who > said > it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a reader > competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some Arabic > vocabulary to match with definitions. > We also have other parts of the test . > > > I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired time as > well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I > explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the Baha’I > faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, Sawm, > Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. > > The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match readers > based on subject matter competency, that they only base on availability. > She > said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of > course > do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. > > I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This > would > help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who likely > won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for > suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. > > I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I doubt > I > can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss > counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, they > would not provide someone proficient in math. > > It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read > adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d > really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar > with math to read a math exam. > Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send > privately. > Its appalling. > > The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see what > we > can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I > probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them with > definitions. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 07:39:51 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:39:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem In-Reply-To: <747822F6E1F64F8F8995EF6292E6F90A@OwnerPC> References: <747822F6E1F64F8F8995EF6292E6F90A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <517CD247.9010602@tysdomain.com> hey ashley, I was just sort of curious what school you went to. Sometimes there's stuff online that can help in tracking people down. On 4/27/2013 11:20 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > Thank you. I think its an issue that the dss doesn't want to go the > extra mile in helping out. > She said she would not do it for other subjects. I thought legally > they had to provide something workable. > > I will speak to the professor about this and see what she can offer. I > can not use a TA as we don't have them. It might just be that I bring > a list of these foreign terms with me to aide in reading them and > knowing what they are. > Maybe the professor knows someone in the department that I'm unaware > of that can assist me. I doubt it; it’s a small department but worth > asking about. > > I just checked our disability service webpage on the website. No > policies are on there about test taking and readers. > I'll check the handbook as well once I get one. > > Thanks for the suggestions. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 12:59 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem > > Your DSS counselor is definitely being negligent, but at a community > college they might not have enough readers to match every subject. > It's unfortunate but might just be a limited-resources issue. Anyway, > we've all given you several suggestions of ways to bypass an office > that isn't meeting your needs. I hope at least one of these > suggestions will work out for you. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less >> than adaquate readers issued by this community college. >> But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking >> a world >> religions final covering the monotheistic religions. >> >> Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the >> Baha’I >> faith among other religions. >> The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she >> who said >> it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a >> reader >> competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some Arabic >> vocabulary to match with definitions. >> We also have other parts of the test . >> >> >> I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired >> time as >> well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I >> explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the >> Baha’I >> faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, >> Sawm, >> Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. >> >> The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match >> readers >> based on subject matter competency, that they only base on >> availability. She >> said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of >> course >> do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. >> >> I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This >> would >> help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who likely >> won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for >> suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. >> >> I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I >> doubt I >> can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss >> counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, >> they >> would not provide someone proficient in math. >> >> It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read >> adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d >> really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar >> with math to read a math exam. >> Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send >> privately. >> Its appalling. >> >> The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see >> what we >> can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I >> probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them >> with >> definitions. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 07:44:26 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:44:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517CD35A.9060902@tysdomain.com> Ashley: Requesting a reader who knows arabic is pretty far out there. I'm at a university and I really highly doubt I could find a reader that knows arabic. If you have to, just write a list of the words in braille and take it in. Then they can spell it out (or if it's a matching deal, you could get the matching terms from the prof in a braille form ahead of time--on a note taker or sit down and braille it out). As for the math stuff, that is a bit rough and something I'd fight. I feel like your expectations are to high on one end and you should actually be getting accomidations on the other. Good luck, On 4/27/2013 10:45 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less than adaquate readers issued by this community college. > But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking a world religions final covering the monotheistic religions. > > Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the Baha’I faith among other religions. > The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she who said it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a reader competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some Arabic vocabulary to match with definitions. > We also have other parts of the test . > > > I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired time as well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the Baha’I faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, Sawm, Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. > > The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match readers based on subject matter competency, that they only base on availability. She said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of course do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. > > I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This would help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who likely won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. > > I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I doubt I can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, they would not provide someone proficient in math. > > It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar with math to read a math exam. > Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send privately. > Its appalling. > > The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see what we can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them with definitions. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 07:56:17 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:56:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> Ashley: I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far out there. First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's generally a glossary. What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books that you need. I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the future. Good luck, On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check > the student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. > But I believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to > have another staff member or another student assist me who can read. > > My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but > when I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have > to follow their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers > from the dss office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. > I'll ask my counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing > accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I > prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. > A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide > students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you > can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the > professor to make. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >> taking >> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >> need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >> Gosh. I >> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >> clue >> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >> looking >> up material and research, but >> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >> legal >> >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >> not >> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >>> was a >>> chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>> then you >>> interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>> colleges, >>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>> and >>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>> But >>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>> problem >>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi all, >>>> > >>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>> get. >>>> > Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>> scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> > >>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>> were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>> repeat >>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>> to >>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>> mark >>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>> If I >>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> > >>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> > >>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> > >>>> > Ashley >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 08:12:44 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 04:12:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi, My experience thus far with community colleges is that they are indeed smaller, but the professors are also not very used to having students with disabilities other than mild learning ones. (I'm trying to get set up at one for summer classes myself, and they flip out once I mention braille or anything to try to work things out). You kind of have to kick the teaching thing into overdrive a bit; I mean it's important everywhere you go, but I think more so in community colleges and places like that. Try suggesting to the prof that a student higher up in the courses of the department or something be the reader during office hours. This way the prof can oversee the administration of the test, but you would get a decent reader who would know the pronunciations. Also, the prof could jump in if necessary. I know universities are different from colleges, but I've found that even in subjects where the tests are very long and drawn out the prof will usually be willing to work with me if I just ask and tell him what my needs are. E.G. My music theory and aural skills professor will let me finish tests in his office if I need extra time. We do a lot of outside coordinating to make sure I get all the files I need to do my homework and such anyway, but as long as I ask he's pretty willing to work with me. Just cut out the middle man and try asking your professor if you can take the test under their supervision with another reader in their office or somewhere else they feel would work. On 4/28/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Ashley: > I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all > ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They > talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far > out there. > > First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. > its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them > to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but > try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. > Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest > finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department > x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will > be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they > mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's > generally a glossary. > > What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make > your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as > you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, > that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't > perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, > and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to > lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain > about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll > get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and > accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to > deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books > that you need. > > > I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, > as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. > I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few > semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow > she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work > with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when > it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you > eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's > because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if > they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're > blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the > loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't > mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve > some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's > ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the > future. > > Good luck, > On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check >> the student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. >> But I believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to >> have another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >> >> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but >> when I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have >> to follow their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers >> from the dss office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. >> I'll ask my counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >> professor to make. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>> Gosh. I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >>>> was a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>> then you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi all, >>>>> > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>> get. >>>>> > Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>> scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> > >>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>>> If I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>> > >>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> > >>>>> > Ashley >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 08:19:29 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 04:19:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem In-Reply-To: <517CD35A.9060902@tysdomain.com> References: <517CD35A.9060902@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi, That's just odd. I didn't end up using a reader for stats, but I know the DS office had someone in mind to hire for my tests if I did need one. He was a math major who headed up the math tutoring for my section of stats, so he would have been familiar with all the material he would have needed to read on the test. I feel like for things like math especially, where there aren't even words that can be spelled out but symbols, that it is important to have someone who knows what they're doing, because as a blind student if a reader says there's a "squiggley thing," or something like that I won't understand what they're talking about at all, and I think any other student would. On the other hand, I hope the previously proposed suggestions help. On 4/28/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Ashley: > Requesting a reader who knows arabic is pretty far out there. I'm at a > university and I really highly doubt I could find a reader that knows > arabic. If you have to, just write a list of the words in braille and > take it in. Then they can spell it out (or if it's a matching deal, you > could get the matching terms from the prof in a braille form ahead of > time--on a note taker or sit down and braille it out). > > As for the math stuff, that is a bit rough and something I'd fight. I > feel like your expectations are to high on one end and you should > actually be getting accomidations on the other. > Good luck, > On 4/27/2013 10:45 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less >> than adaquate readers issued by this community college. >> But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking a >> world religions final covering the monotheistic religions. >> >> Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the >> Baha’I faith among other religions. >> The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she who >> said it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a >> reader competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some >> Arabic vocabulary to match with definitions. >> We also have other parts of the test . >> >> >> I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired time as >> well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I >> explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the >> Baha’I faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, >> Sawm, Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. >> >> The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match readers >> based on subject matter competency, that they only base on availability. >> She said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of >> course do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. >> >> I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This >> would help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who >> likely won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for >> suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. >> >> I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I doubt >> I can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss >> counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, they >> would not provide someone proficient in math. >> >> It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read >> adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d >> really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar >> with math to read a math exam. >> Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send >> privately. >> Its appalling. >> >> The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see what >> we can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I >> probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them with >> definitions. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 13:13:11 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:13:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Message-ID: <517d2077.a75cec0a.671e.ffff83b4@mx.google.com> I also ran across a blind Kung Fu master in a young adult series recently. Though a lot of blind characters in literature reflect stereotypes, there are a few exceptions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" wrote: I think the Avatar series, the TV show not the blue people, might have a few novels out. If so there is a blind character in there who is pretty cool, although the show plays off the stereotype that blind people can use sound to know everything around them. Also, you might want to consider some of the commics. Dare Devel is the one that most readily comes to mind, but there are a few others that feature blind characters too. On 4/27/13, melissa Green wrote: Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. But there is one scene that I would use that I think is appropriate and brings about discussiion. I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie McGinnity" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" wrote: Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Hello- Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. best of luck Carrie Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: BS"D Dear NABS, I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! Kind regards, Leye-Shprintse Envoyé de mon iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t 104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer %4 0gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gm ail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mai l.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g mail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 13:18:14 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:18:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions Message-ID: <517d21a6.24b3ec0a.6cee.fffffabe@mx.google.com> I=20don't=20have=20any=20kind=20of=20VR=20device,=20so=20I=20don't=20know=20= if=20this=20is=20an=20 option.=20I=20read=20all=20books=20on=20my=20brillenote=20apex.=20What=20I= =20do=20when=20I=20 need=20to=20mark=20a=20passage=20(this=20works=20only=20in=20literature)=20= is=20a=20put=20a=20 distinctive=20symbol=20at=20the=20beginning=20and=20end=20of=20each=20perti= nent=20 passage.=20Then,=20when=20study=20time=20rolls=20around,=20I=20just=20use=20= the=20Find=20 feature=20to=20locate=20that=20symbol=20and=20voila!=20There=20is=20the=20p= assage. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"justin=20williams"=20=20wrote: =20Hi=20all, =20So=20how=20do=20you=20all=20like=20to=20study?=20Some=20techniques=20to= =20review=20 material=20such=20as=20reading=20highlighted=20text=20are=20not=20available= =20to=20 us.=20Same=20with=20marking=20passages=20with=20post-it=20notes.=20I=20do=20= take=20 notes=20while=20reading=20which=20is=20an=20integral=20part=20of=20studying= =20for=20 tests. =20I=20often=20find=20my=20notes=20though=20are=20too=20lengthy=20from=20ch= apters,=20so=20I=20 take=20shorter=20notes=20from=20those=20original=20notes=20or=20I=20summari= ze=20the=20 chapter. =20I=20use=20a=20vr=20stream=20or=20my=20vr=20stratus.=20Do=20you=20all=20u= se=20the=20book=20mark=20 feature?=20I=E2=80=99ve=20tried=20but=20the=20thing=20is=20I=20cannot=20rem= ember=20what=20 number=20I=20assigned=20to=20each=20passage.=20How=20does=20that=20highligh= t=20book=20 mark=20feature=20work?=20This=20may=20help=20in=20marking=20key=20words=20o= r=20concepts=20 such=20as=20theories=20defined=20for=20sociology. =20How=20do=20you=20memorize=20vocabulary?=20For=20religion,=20we=20are=20t= ested=20on=20 vocab=20and=20definitions=20and=20it=E2=80=99s=20a=20lot=20to=20memorize. =20I=20struggled=20with=20that=20in=20foreign=20languages=20too. =20So=20far=20I=20simply=20write=20the=20definition=20and=20read=20it=20and= =20say=20it=20 aloud; =20then=20state=20it=20from=20memory=20without=20my=20notes.=20Many=20stude= nts=20use=20 flash=20cards=20they=20say.=20But=20I=20cannot=20do=20that=20with=20braille= .=20I=20wish=20I=20 had=20a=20way=20to=20mix=20up=20the=20words=20and=20definitions=20like=20yo= u=20would=20do=20 with=20flash=20cards.=20So=20far,=20what=20I=E2=80=99ve=20done=20is=20just= =20mix=20up=20the=20 order=20of=20words=20as=20I=20study=20them=20on=20hard=20copy=20braille.=20= Instead=20of=20 reading=20from=20top=20to=20bottom=20of=20the=20page,=20I=E2=80=99ll=20star= t=20in=20the=20 middle=20or=20some=20random=20point. =20Also,=20has=20looking=20up=20information=20been=20a=20challenge?=20It=20= is=20for=20me.=20 The=20braille=20note=20does=20not=20search=20across=20files=20for=20wordds.= =20I=20 cannot=20skim=20for=20words=20and=20key=20things=20as=20sighted=20people=20= do.=20I=20 usually=20end=20up=20asking=20my=20reader=20to=20assist=20me=20in=20looking= =20it=20up=20in=20 the=20book.=20I=20write=20down=20what=20the=20book=20says;=20often=20in=20m= y=20own=20words=20 and=20make=20note=20of=20the=20page.=20If=20I=20have=20the=20book=20through= =20learning=20 ally,=20I=20can=20go=20back=20to=20the=20page=20if=20needed=20then. =20A=20good=20reader=20will=20check=20the=20index=20for=20key=20terms=20and= =20words=20that=20 resemble=20key=20terms. =20If=20its=20not=20there,=20I=20go=20back=20to=20my=20notes=20and=20search= .=20I=20put=20the=20 topic=20for=20the=20class=20on=20the=20top=20of=20my=20notes=20which=20ofte= n=20helps=20me=20 in=20finding=20the=20right=20area=20or=20file=20to=20look=20in.=20I=20will= =20write=20the=20 date=20as=20well=20on=20the=20top=20of=20my=20electronic=20page.=20I=20crea= te=20a=20file=20in=20 my=20braille=20note=20with=20key=20items=20for=20review.=20I=20find=20it=20= helpful=20to=20 have=20a=20study=20guide=20from=20the=20professor=20and=20follow=20that=20i= f=20we=20have=20 one. =20I=E2=80=99d=20use=20the=20practice=20tests=20on=20the=20online=20website= s=20if=20they=20were=20 accessible;=20but=20often=20they=E2=80=99re=20not. =20Sometimes=20the=20textbook=20itself=20has=20review=20questions=20and=20I= =20might=20 use=20those=20to=20review=20if=20it=20looks=20helpful. =20If=20I=E2=80=99m=20totally=20stuck=20on=20some=20concepts=20and=20know=20= its=20on=20the=20 final,=20I=20ask=20my=20professors.=20I=20find=20that=20usually=20they=E2=80= =99re=20helpful=20 in=20office=20hours. =20Ashley =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% 40gma =20il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From hope.paulos at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 14:05:27 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:05:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator Message-ID: Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the vraille blazer? Thanks Hope Sent from my iPod From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 15:47:06 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:47:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem In-Reply-To: <517CD35A.9060902@tysdomain.com> References: <517CD35A.9060902@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <8425124C660140AEBBB8662345A5BDF3@OwnerPC> Tyler, I am thinking of doing that if my professor approves. I'd like to bring a list of terms in braille. so when they spell them I can see them in braille At my campus, actually its really easy to find a Muslim. We have muslim faculty and staff; muslim students, etc. If they are Muslim, they will know some arabic and could spell these words. The school is just being difficult. I will try though and do something to assist me such as bring a list in braille so my grade is not compromised. They told me they will not match the subject matter with the test which would put a student at a disadvantage particularly in math and science. Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:44 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] my test accomodation problem Ashley: Requesting a reader who knows arabic is pretty far out there. I'm at a university and I really highly doubt I could find a reader that knows arabic. If you have to, just write a list of the words in braille and take it in. Then they can spell it out (or if it's a matching deal, you could get the matching terms from the prof in a braille form ahead of time--on a note taker or sit down and braille it out). As for the math stuff, that is a bit rough and something I'd fight. I feel like your expectations are to high on one end and you should actually be getting accomidations on the other. Good luck, On 4/27/2013 10:45 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > This is the problem I alluded to before. Usually I have worked with less > than adaquate readers issued by this community college. > But this is a different senario. What happened was this. I am taking a > world religions final covering the monotheistic religions. > > Although its an elective I want to do well. We studied Islam and the Baha’I > faith among other religions. > The professor is nice and farely understanding. In fact, it was she who > said it would be challenging to do auditorily and suggested I request a > reader competent in Aerabic or who was Muslim. We are testing on some > Arabic vocabulary to match with definitions. > We also have other parts of the test . > > > I requested a reader from my dss counselor and stated the desired time as > well as explained that I need a reader who can pronounce Arabic words. I > explained that we have foreign words because its about Islam and the Baha’I > faith. Words for the five pillars and their holidays such as Salad, Sawm, > Zakat, Ramadan, and Hajj. > > The DSS counselor responded rather rudely that they do not match readers > based on subject matter competency, that they only base on availability. > She said I should know this since I’ve worked with her long enough. I of > course do not know this as I’ve never requested this before. > > I might take a list of the words we have to match for the test. This > would help me know what the words are as the reader spells them out who > likely won’t know how to pronounce them. I’ll also ask my professor for > suggestions. She’ll likely just advocate with me to dss. > > I was planning on using the school readers, so at this late point I doubt > I can get someone else. They need to provide competent readers. My dss > counselor went as far as to say that if a student took a math class, they > would not provide someone proficient in math. > > It is discriminatory for them not to provide a reader who can read > adaquately. I kid you not. She really used the math class example. She’d > really set someone up to fail by providing a student reader not familiar > with math to read a math exam. > Email me off list for the counselor’s exact words which I can send > privately. > Its appalling. > > The best I can do i s explain the situation to the professor and see what > we can work out knowing that I might have an incompetent reader. What I > probably do is rely on them spelling the words to me as we match them with > definitions. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Apr 28 15:51:20 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:51:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > > to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > >> for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >> school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >> exam > >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >> school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>> Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>> taking > >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>> clue > >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking > >>> up material and research, but > >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>> legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>> not > >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>> the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then > >>>> you > >>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, > >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>> But > >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>> problem > >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>> > get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>> > were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > >>>>> repeat > >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> > for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 16:46:48 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:46:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> References: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <34DCA4A6-39FF-451F-A4A3-7C1498BEAC8E@gmail.com> Yes. It doesn't run on Mac at present, but should in future. -Jamie Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, 2013, at 12:01 AM, "justin williams" wrote: > Is QRead a program for the pc/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of blackbyrdfly at gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:57 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] study suggestions > > I use a program called QRead which allows me to open just about any textbook format and save unlimited bookmarks, like leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my own notes of course, in class and while reading. And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually getting really good at these days, in lifht of the events rhat took place at my old university in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! > > -Jamie Principato > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> So how do you all like to study? Some techniques to review material such as reading highlighted text are not available to us. Same with marking passages with post-it notes. I do take notes while reading which is an integral part of studying for tests. >> I often find my notes though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take shorter notes from those original notes or I summarize the chapter. >> I use a vr stream or my vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot remember what number I assigned to each passage. How does that highlight book mark feature work? This may help in marking key words or concepts such as theories defined for sociology. >> >> How do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot to memorize. >> I struggled with that in foreign languages too. >> >> So far I simply write the definition and read it and say it aloud; >> then state it from memory without my notes. Many students use flash cards they say. But I cannot do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix up the words and definitions like you would do with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is just mix up the order of words as I study them on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the middle or some random point. >> >> Also, has looking up information been a challenge? It is for me. The braille note does not search across files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and key things as sighted people do. I usually end up asking my reader to assist me in looking it up in the book. I write down what the book says; often in my own words and make note of the page. If I have the book through learning ally, I can go back to the page if needed then. >> A good reader will check the index for key terms and words that resemble key terms. >> >> If its not there, I go back to my notes and search. I put the topic for the class on the top of my notes which often helps me in finding the right area or file to look in. I will write the date as well on the top of my electronic page. I create a file in my braille note with key items for review. I find it helpful to have a study guide from the professor and follow that if we have one. >> >> I’d use the practice tests on the online websites if they were accessible; but often they’re not. >> Sometimes the textbook itself has review questions and I might use those to review if it looks helpful. >> If I’m totally stuck on some concepts and know its on the final, I ask my professors. I find that usually they’re helpful in office hours. >> >> Ashley >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma >> il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 18:22:35 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:22:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> Just curious: if you were to have a braille copy of the test, what is the point of having a reader? Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along > with the reader? > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > >> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>> out of their office. >>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing >>> room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the >>> professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around >>> to ensure you don't cheat. >>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might >>> end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>> >>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control >>> over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their >>> entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. >>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or >>> to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange >>>> for >>>> >>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates >>>> school >>>> >>>> policy. >>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for >>>> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the >>>> exam >>>> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >>>> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >>>> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >>>> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >>>> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >>>> school policy. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>> Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>>> taking >>>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class >> I >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >> Gosh. >>>>> I >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>>> clue >>>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>>> >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>> looking >>>>> up material and research, but >>>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>>> legal >>>>> >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>>> not >>>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>>> the test or some such? >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >> had >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >> was >>>>>> a >>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>> >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>>>> you >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>> colleges, >>>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>>> problem >>>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>>>> get. >>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>>>> repeat >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast >> and >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with >> jaws >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >> directly >>>>>>> mark >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >> . >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 18:23:21 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:23:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille translators. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the vraille blazer? > Thanks > Hope > > Sent from my iPod > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Apr 28 18:23:16 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 13:23:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> References: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, you can read more at: http://q-continuum.net/qread/ \At 01:01 AM 4/27/2013, you wrote: >Is QRead a program for the pc/ -----Original >Message----- From: nabs-l >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, >2013 1:57 AM To: National Association of Blind >Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] >study suggestions I use a program called QRead >which allows me to open just about any textbook >format and save unlimited bookmarks, like >leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the >Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight >feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my >own notes of course, in class and while reading. >And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually >getting really good at these days, in lifht of >the events rhat took place at my old university >in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! >-Jamie Principato Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, >2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > Hi all, > > >So how do you all like to study? Some techniques >to review material such as reading highlighted >text are not available to us. Same with marking >passages with post-it notes. I do take notes >while reading which is an integral part of >studying for tests. > I often find my notes >though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take >shorter notes from those original notes or I >summarize the chapter. > I use a vr stream or my >vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark >feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot >remember what number I assigned to each passage. >How does that highlight book mark feature work? >This may help in marking key words or concepts >such as theories defined for sociology. > > How >do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are >tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot >to memorize. > I struggled with that in foreign >languages too. > > So far I simply write the >definition and read it and say it aloud; > then >state it from memory without my notes. Many >students use flash cards they say. But I cannot >do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix >up the words and definitions like you would do >with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is >just mix up the order of words as I study them >on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from >top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the >middle or some random point. > > Also, has >looking up information been a challenge? It is >for me. The braille note does not search across >files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and >key things as sighted people do. I usually end >up asking my reader to assist me in looking it >up in the book. I write down what the book says; >often in my own words and make note of the page. >If I have the book through learning ally, I can >go back to the page if needed then. > A good >reader will check the index for key terms and >words that resemble key terms. > > If its not >there, I go back to my notes and search. I put >the topic for the class on the top of my notes >which often helps me in finding the right area >or file to look in. I will write the date as >well on the top of my electronic page. I create >a file in my braille note with key items for >review. I find it helpful to have a study guide >from the professor and follow that if we have >one. > > I’d use the practice tests on the >online websites if they were accessible; but >often they’re not. > Sometimes the textbook >itself has review questions and I might use >those to review if it looks helpful. > If I’m >totally stuck on some concepts and know its on >the final, I ask my professors. I find that >usually they’re helpful in office hours. > > >Ashley > > >_______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or >get your account info for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma > > il.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Apr 28 18:33:50 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 13:33:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a perfect solution, but do work. Dave At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille >translators. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the > vraille blazer? > > Thanks > > Hope From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Apr 28 18:40:04 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:40:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: None except to fill in scantron. I was just making a suggestion since she is so worried about the pronunciation. On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, christopher nusbaum < dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > Just curious: if you were to have a braille copy of the test, what is > the point of having a reader? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > > Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along > > with the reader? > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < > > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > > > >> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > >> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > >> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > >> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > >> willing to work something out with you that's fair. > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > >>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > >>> out of their office. > >>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > >>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > >>> room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > >>> professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > >>> to ensure you don't cheat. > >>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > >>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > >>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > >>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > >>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > >>> end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > >>> > >>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > >>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > >>> over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > >>> entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > >>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > >>> to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > >>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. > >>> > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>> Arielle, > >>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me > arrange > >>>> for > >>>> > >>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >>>> school > >>>> > >>>> policy. > >>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers > for > >>>> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >>>> exam > >>>> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >>>> > >>>> Ashley > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>> > >>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >>>> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >>>> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >>>> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >>>> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >>>> school policy. > >>>> > >>>> Arielle > >>>> > >>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>>>> Bramlett > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>>> > >>>>> Arielle, > >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>>>> taking > >>>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The > class > >> I > >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > >> Gosh. > >>>>> I > >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>>>> clue > >>>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>>>> > >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>>>> looking > >>>>> up material and research, but > >>>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>>>> legal > >>>>> > >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option > to > >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>>>> not > >>>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>>>> grade using bad readers. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ashley > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>>> > >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>>>> the test or some such? > >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > >> had > >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > >> was > >>>>>> a > >>>>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And > then > >>>>>> you > >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > >> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>>>> colleges, > >>>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with > competent > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>>>> But > >>>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>>>> problem > >>>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>>>>> get. > >>>>>>>> Do > >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>>>>> scantron, > >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>>>>> were > >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower > and > >>>>>>> repeat > >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > >> and > >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > >> jaws > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > >> directly > >>>>>>> mark > >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. > If > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>>>> om > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > >> . > >>>>> net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>>>> .com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 18:48:29 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:48:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Chris, I suppose the reader could still be a scribe and circle the answers you want on the print test; this is what I did all the time in High School. Say it's not the most efficient way if you like, there's probably something to that but it worked great for me when I used it. Ashley, I know plenty of Muslims who don't hardly know any Arabic at all. Saying a Muslim will understand Arabic is kind of like saying a Roman Catholic will be fluent in Latin, Eastern Orthadox Christians must know Russian, all Jews can speak Hebrew, etc...it's just not true. There might be something to the idea that any practicing or formerly practicing Muslim will know how to pronounce the few specific vocabulary words you're looking for, but that hardly means being a Muslim means you can speak Arabic. I know it's a tiny point when compared to the larger issue at hand...but I thought it needed to be said. Best, Kirt On 4/28/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Just curious: if you were to have a braille copy of the test, what is > the point of having a reader? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >> with the reader? >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> >>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>> out of their office. >>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing >>>> room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the >>>> professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around >>>> to ensure you don't cheat. >>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might >>>> end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>> >>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control >>>> over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their >>>> entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. >>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or >>>> to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>> arrange >>>>> for >>>>> >>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates >>>>> school >>>>> >>>>> policy. >>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>> for >>>>> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the >>>>> exam >>>>> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >>>>> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >>>>> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >>>>> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >>>>> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >>>>> school policy. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>>> Bramlett >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>>>> taking >>>>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The >>>>>> class >>> I >>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>> Gosh. >>>>>> I >>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>>>> clue >>>>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>> looking >>>>>> up material and research, but >>>>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>>>> legal >>>>>> >>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option >>>>>> to >>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>>>> not >>>>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>>>> the test or some such? >>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>> had >>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >>> was >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>> colleges, >>>>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with >>>>>>>> competent >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>>>>> get. >>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> repeat >>>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast >>> and >>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with >>> jaws >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>> directly >>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>> . >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From hope.paulos at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 18:50:21 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:50:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <001501ce4441$3d65d550$b8317ff0$@gmail.com> When I was in school, the prof actually read me the exams because none of th readers spoke German. You might consider getting an electronic copy so you can review the words letter by letter with screen reader. Then you can email the test to prof after you're done. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations None except to fill in scantron. I was just making a suggestion since she is so worried about the pronunciation. On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, christopher nusbaum < dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > Just curious: if you were to have a braille copy of the test, what is > the point of having a reader? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > > Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow > > along with the reader? > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < > > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > > > >> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > >> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, > >> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow > >> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll > >> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have > >>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you > >>> step out of their office. > >>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with > >>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a > >>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you > >>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the > >>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. > >>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > >>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > >>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > >>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This > >>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then > >>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > >>> > >>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but > >>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really > >>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some > >>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > >>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, > >>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > >>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. > >>> > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>> Arielle, > >>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me > arrange > >>>> for > >>>> > >>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this > >>>> violates school > >>>> > >>>> policy. > >>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own > >>>> readers > for > >>>> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take > >>>> the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat > >>>> then? > >>>> > >>>> Ashley > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>> > >>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you > >>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that > >>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office > >>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the > >>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite > >>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically > >>>> not quite in line with school policy. > >>>> > >>>> Arielle > >>>> > >>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Ashley Bramlett > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>>> > >>>>> Arielle, > >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree > >>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing > >>>>> certificate. The > class > >> I > >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > >> Gosh. > >>>>> I > >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and > >>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me > >>>>> to do this. > >>>>> > >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts > >>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a > >>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > >>>>> > >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the > >>>>> option > to > >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the > >>>>> ADA. Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a > >>>>> lower grade using bad readers. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ashley > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>>> > >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most > >>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced > >>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material > >>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they > >>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing > >>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting > >>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a > >>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and > >>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? > >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for > >>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. > >>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because > >>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an > >>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but > >>>>>> when I > >> had > >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the > >>>>>> person > >> was > >>>>>> a > >>>>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. > >>>>>> And > then > >>>>>> you > >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > >>>>>> > >> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring > >>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always > >>>>>>> provided me with > competent > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words > >>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I > >>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now > >>>>>>> and my next college. > >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations > >>>>>>>> you get. > >>>>>>>> Do > >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>>>>> scantron, > >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my > >>>>>>>> readers were > >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak > >>>>>>> slower > and > >>>>>>> repeat > >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read > >>>>>>> fast > >> and > >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took > >>>>>>> with > >> jaws > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > >> directly > >>>>>>> mark > >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. > If > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.c > >>>>> om > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>> info > for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > >> edu > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>> info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink > >> . > >>>>> net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > >>>>> .com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > >> edu > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 19:50:06 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:50:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Two things I do are: 1. For vocabulary words or things I have to memorize the definition or one or two characteristics of, I use Excel. In the first column, I put the word or phrase. In the second column, I put the definition or whatever I'm trying to memorize. For example, recently I had to memorize the functions and locations of almost 60 different organs, ducts, arteries and veins in the fetal pig. The first column was labelled "Organ" (to make it simple), the second column was labelled "function," and the third column was labelled "location." Then, based on notes I'd taken and research from my book, lecture recordings, and the internet, I put what the organ/duct/artery/vein does in the second column, and where it is located in the third. When studying, I went down the first column and made myself speak (out loud, because I remember something better if I speak it) the function and location of each. Then, I did the same with the second column, requiring myself to speak the name of the organ and its location. Finally, I did the same with the third column. For more study, you can also sort alphabetically to mix it up a bit. The other technique I use is flash cards. I read in your post that you can't do this with Braille. I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. There is a special slate called a Jannus slate, which allows you to insert an index card (the smaller size, I forget dimensions), and write in interpoint. So, you can put the word on one side and the definition on the other. I do this when I have only a few vocabulary words to study (20 or less), since it does take me quite a lot of time to make the flash cards, but I find that I learn the words and definitions just by making the flash cards, and reviewing them is just extra practice. If a professor provides a study guide, I always use it in studying. I find that if the professor put the effort into making a study guide, it's worth my time to use it. Also, when I'm reading a chapter or listening to a lecture, I write my notes like this: Primary Topic *Secondary Topic and basic information like definition -points about the secondary topic, such as examples --any further details about the point that should be listed, rather than written out. I'll give an example. Here is a portion of my notes from Biology on chapter 56: Population Ecology: Ecology: study of interactions of organisms and their environments *biotic: interactions between living organisms *abiotic: interaction between living and nonliving L Levels of study in ecology: *organismal -physiological -behavioural *population *community *ecosystem Population ecology: The study of what factors affect population size and how these factors change over time and space *demography: the study of birth rates, death rates, age distributions, and the sizes of populations ... The carrying capacity is difficult to identify. *Logistic growth difficult to measure accurately because of range of factors; K can vary temporally *Density-dependent factors: Impact is correlated with the size of the population -With a bigger population, there is a bigger impact. --competition --food supply --habitat for living and breathing --predation --parasites --disease *Density-independent factors: Forces that impact a population regardless of size --weather (usually) --drought --fire I hope that wasn't too long, but I wanted to show you a good example of how I write my notes. If I read the chapter before class (which I confess, I don't always do), I will make the notes based on the chapter, then add points with * and - from the lecture. This makes it really easy to study, since I don't have to re-read the chapter, re-listen to the lecture, or review the powerpoint. I often find that the answers for the study guide are easy to find with this note-taking format. I hope that helps! ~~Jewel On 4/28/13, David Andrews wrote: > Yes, you can read more at: > http://q-continuum.net/qread/ > > \At 01:01 AM 4/27/2013, you wrote: >>Is QRead a program for the pc/ -----Original >>Message----- From: nabs-l >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, >>2013 1:57 AM To: National Association of Blind >>Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] >>study suggestions I use a program called QRead >>which allows me to open just about any textbook >>format and save unlimited bookmarks, like >>leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the >>Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight >>feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my >>own notes of course, in class and while reading. >>And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually >>getting really good at these days, in lifht of >>the events rhat took place at my old university >>in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! >>-Jamie Principato Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, >>2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> wrote: > Hi all, > > >>So how do you all like to study? Some techniques >>to review material such as reading highlighted >>text are not available to us. Same with marking >>passages with post-it notes. I do take notes >>while reading which is an integral part of >>studying for tests. > I often find my notes >>though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take >>shorter notes from those original notes or I >>summarize the chapter. > I use a vr stream or my >>vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark >>feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot >>remember what number I assigned to each passage. >>How does that highlight book mark feature work? >>This may help in marking key words or concepts >>such as theories defined for sociology. > > How >>do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are >>tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot >>to memorize. > I struggled with that in foreign >>languages too. > > So far I simply write the >>definition and read it and say it aloud; > then >>state it from memory without my notes. Many >>students use flash cards they say. But I cannot >>do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix >>up the words and definitions like you would do >>with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is >>just mix up the order of words as I study them >>on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from >>top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the >>middle or some random point. > > Also, has >>looking up information been a challenge? It is >>for me. The braille note does not search across >>files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and >>key things as sighted people do. I usually end >>up asking my reader to assist me in looking it >>up in the book. I write down what the book says; >>often in my own words and make note of the page. >>If I have the book through learning ally, I can >>go back to the page if needed then. > A good >>reader will check the index for key terms and >>words that resemble key terms. > > If its not >>there, I go back to my notes and search. I put >>the topic for the class on the top of my notes >>which often helps me in finding the right area >>or file to look in. I will write the date as >>well on the top of my electronic page. I create >>a file in my braille note with key items for >>review. I find it helpful to have a study guide >>from the professor and follow that if we have >>one. > > I’d use the practice tests on the >>online websites if they were accessible; but >>often they’re not. > Sometimes the textbook >>itself has review questions and I might use >>those to review if it looks helpful. > If I’m >>totally stuck on some concepts and know its on >>the final, I ask my professors. I find that >>usually they’re helpful in office hours. > > >>Ashley > > >>_______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or >>get your account info for nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma >> > il.com >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 19:57:27 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:57:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey why do these notes look so familiar, oh wait I'm studying the same thing for my finals. Or the same type of thing at least. In all seriousness though I just wanted to give the size of the card, I think you mean 3 x 5". Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, Jewel wrote: > Two things I do are: > 1. For vocabulary words or things I have to memorize the definition or > one or two characteristics of, I use Excel. In the first column, I put > the word or phrase. In the second column, I put the definition or > whatever I'm trying to memorize. For example, recently I had to > memorize the functions and locations of almost 60 different organs, > ducts, arteries and veins in the fetal pig. The first column was > labelled "Organ" (to make it simple), the second column was labelled > "function," and the third column was labelled "location." Then, based > on notes I'd taken and research from my book, lecture recordings, and > the internet, I put what the organ/duct/artery/vein does in the > second column, and where it is located in the third. When studying, I > went down the first column and made myself speak (out loud, because I > remember something better if I speak it) the function and location of > each. Then, I did the same with the second column, requiring myself to > speak the name of the organ and its location. Finally, I did the same > with the third column. For more study, you can also sort > alphabetically to mix it up a bit. > > The other technique I use is flash cards. I read in your post that you > can't do this with Braille. I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. > There is a special slate called a Jannus slate, which allows you to > insert an index card (the smaller size, I forget dimensions), and > write in interpoint. So, you can put the word on one side and the > definition on the other. I do this when I have only a few vocabulary > words to study (20 or less), since it does take me quite a lot of time > to make the flash cards, but I find that I learn the words and > definitions just by making the flash cards, and reviewing them is just > extra practice. > > If a professor provides a study guide, I always use it in studying. I > find that if the professor put the effort into making a study guide, > it's worth my time to use it. > > Also, when I'm reading a chapter or listening to a lecture, I write my > notes like this: > Primary Topic > *Secondary Topic and basic information like definition > -points about the secondary topic, such as examples > --any further details about the point that should be listed, rather > than written out. > > I'll give an example. Here is a portion of my notes from Biology on > chapter 56: Population Ecology: > > Ecology: study of interactions of organisms and their environments > *biotic: interactions between living organisms > *abiotic: interaction between living and nonliving L > > Levels of study in ecology: > *organismal > -physiological > -behavioural > *population > *community > *ecosystem > > Population ecology: The study of what factors affect population size > and how these factors change over time and space *demography: the > study of birth rates, death rates, age distributions, and the sizes of > populations > ... > The carrying capacity is difficult to identify. > *Logistic growth difficult to measure accurately because of range of > factors; K can vary temporally *Density-dependent factors: Impact is > correlated with the size of the population -With a bigger population, > there is a bigger impact. > --competition > --food supply > --habitat for living and breathing > --predation > --parasites > --disease > *Density-independent factors: Forces that impact a population > regardless of size > --weather (usually) > --drought > --fire > > I hope that wasn't too long, but I wanted to show you a good example > of how I write my notes. If I read the chapter before class (which I > confess, I don't always do), I will make the notes based on the > chapter, then add points with * and - from the lecture. This makes it > really easy to study, since I don't have to re-read the chapter, > re-listen to the lecture, or review the powerpoint. I often find that > the answers for the study guide are easy to find with this note-taking > format. > > I hope that helps! > ~~Jewel > > On 4/28/13, David Andrews wrote: >> Yes, you can read more at: >> http://q-continuum.net/qread/ >> >> \At 01:01 AM 4/27/2013, you wrote: >>> Is QRead a program for the pc/ -----Original >>> Message----- From: nabs-l >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>> blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, >>> 2013 1:57 AM To: National Association of Blind >>> Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] >>> study suggestions I use a program called QRead >>> which allows me to open just about any textbook >>> format and save unlimited bookmarks, like >>> leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the >>> Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight >>> feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my >>> own notes of course, in class and while reading. >>> And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually >>> getting really good at these days, in lifht of >>> the events rhat took place at my old university >>> in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! >>> -Jamie Principato Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, >>> 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> wrote: > Hi all, > > >>> So how do you all like to study? Some techniques >>> to review material such as reading highlighted >>> text are not available to us. Same with marking >>> passages with post-it notes. I do take notes >>> while reading which is an integral part of >>> studying for tests. > I often find my notes >>> though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take >>> shorter notes from those original notes or I >>> summarize the chapter. > I use a vr stream or my >>> vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark >>> feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot >>> remember what number I assigned to each passage. >>> How does that highlight book mark feature work? >>> This may help in marking key words or concepts >>> such as theories defined for sociology. > > How >>> do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are >>> tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot >>> to memorize. > I struggled with that in foreign >>> languages too. > > So far I simply write the >>> definition and read it and say it aloud; > then >>> state it from memory without my notes. Many >>> students use flash cards they say. But I cannot >>> do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix >>> up the words and definitions like you would do >>> with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is >>> just mix up the order of words as I study them >>> on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from >>> top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the >>> middle or some random point. > > Also, has >>> looking up information been a challenge? It is >>> for me. The braille note does not search across >>> files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and >>> key things as sighted people do. I usually end >>> up asking my reader to assist me in looking it >>> up in the book. I write down what the book says; >>> often in my own words and make note of the page. >>> If I have the book through learning ally, I can >>> go back to the page if needed then. > A good >>> reader will check the index for key terms and >>> words that resemble key terms. > > If its not >>> there, I go back to my notes and search. I put >>> the topic for the class on the top of my notes >>> which often helps me in finding the right area >>> or file to look in. I will write the date as >>> well on the top of my electronic page. I create >>> a file in my braille note with key items for >>> review. I find it helpful to have a study guide >>> from the professor and follow that if we have >>> one. > > I’d use the practice tests on the >>> online websites if they were accessible; but >>> often they’re not. > Sometimes the textbook >>> itself has review questions and I might use >>> those to review if it looks helpful. > If I’m >>> totally stuck on some concepts and know its on >>> the final, I ask my professors. I find that >>> usually they’re helpful in office hours. > > >>> Ashley > > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or >>> get your account info for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma >>>> il.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>> your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>> your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 20:01:47 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:01:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <7EB3C86C6AFE4B59A14680524DEDE5EC@OwnerPC> Kirt, Like you I had both in high school I read in braille and the reader bubbled in my answers on a scantron. If they were not there, I wrote my answers on a braille paper or circled them and my TVI transferred the answers later. As to my situation with the test, what I meant was that most muslims will know enough words specific to their religion such as holidays and the five pillars to pronounce them. I'm not saying all will know fluent arabic. But I was suggesting this to the dss office since I figured muslims would be familiar with their own specific termonology. Anyway, good point. Of course all religious people don't speak their own language fluently; like a catholic knowing latin. We will just see how things go. I do not know of any readers I can bring in for the exam. My reader who is Muslim is busy that time. What I will likely do is a combo of the reader spelling the terms and having me braille a list of the matching terms. I'll just see what happens. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Chris, I suppose the reader could still be a scribe and circle the answers you want on the print test; this is what I did all the time in High School. Say it's not the most efficient way if you like, there's probably something to that but it worked great for me when I used it. Ashley, I know plenty of Muslims who don't hardly know any Arabic at all. Saying a Muslim will understand Arabic is kind of like saying a Roman Catholic will be fluent in Latin, Eastern Orthadox Christians must know Russian, all Jews can speak Hebrew, etc...it's just not true. There might be something to the idea that any practicing or formerly practicing Muslim will know how to pronounce the few specific vocabulary words you're looking for, but that hardly means being a Muslim means you can speak Arabic. I know it's a tiny point when compared to the larger issue at hand...but I thought it needed to be said. Best, Kirt On 4/28/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Just curious: if you were to have a braille copy of the test, what is > the point of having a reader? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >> with the reader? >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> >>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>> out of their office. >>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing >>>> room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the >>>> professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around >>>> to ensure you don't cheat. >>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might >>>> end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>> >>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control >>>> over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their >>>> entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. >>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or >>>> to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>> arrange >>>>> for >>>>> >>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates >>>>> school >>>>> >>>>> policy. >>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>> for >>>>> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the >>>>> exam >>>>> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >>>>> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >>>>> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >>>>> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >>>>> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >>>>> school policy. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>>> Bramlett >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>>>> taking >>>>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The >>>>>> class >>> I >>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>> Gosh. >>>>>> I >>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>>>> clue >>>>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>> looking >>>>>> up material and research, but >>>>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>>>> legal >>>>>> >>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option >>>>>> to >>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>>>> not >>>>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>>>> the test or some such? >>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>> had >>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >>> was >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>> colleges, >>>>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with >>>>>>>> competent >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>>>>> get. >>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> repeat >>>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast >>> and >>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with >>> jaws >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>> directly >>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>> . >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 28 20:18:38 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:18:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> Hi Tyler, I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their poor reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and I lean in toward them to hear better. Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the page but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they sort of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the page, but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit across from them is a good one. Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will be perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something with symbols. So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille note or my very old embosser on occasion. Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online version is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the links. So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a sighted world. But when a school is a huge community college and should make the accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also have a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. What a concept! Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this problem since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a long time ago. They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the brailling. They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the professor and hopefully work something out. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley: I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far out there. First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's generally a glossary. What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books that you need. I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the future. Good luck, On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check the > student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I > believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have > another staff member or another student assist me who can read. > > My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but when > I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to follow > their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss > office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my > counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing > accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I > prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. > A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide > students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you > can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the > professor to make. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >> taking >> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >> need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >> I >> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >> clue >> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >> looking >> up material and research, but >> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >> legal >> >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not >> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>> a >>> chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>> you >>> interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>> colleges, >>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>> and >>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>> problem >>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi all, >>>> > >>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>> get. >>>> > Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>> scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> > >>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>> were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>> repeat >>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>> to >>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>> mark >>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> > >>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> > >>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> > >>>> > Ashley >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 20:38:33 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:38:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> <6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of luck to you! On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Tyler, > I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their poor > reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I > cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and I > > lean in toward them to hear better. > Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the page > but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they sort > of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the page, > > but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. > I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit > across from them is a good one. > > Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will be > > perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. > For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something with > > symbols. > So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille > note or my very old embosser on occasion. > Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i > go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. > I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in > electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. > > Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online version > > is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the > links. > So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. > > So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a > sighted world. > But when a school is a huge community college and should make the > accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also have > > a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. What > > a concept! > Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this problem > since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. > Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a long > > time ago. > > They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the brailling. > They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. > > Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the > professor and hopefully work something out. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley: > I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all > ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They > talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far > out there. > > First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. > its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them > to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but > try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. > Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest > finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department > x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will > be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they > mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's > generally a glossary. > > What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make > your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as > you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, > that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't > perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, > and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to > lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain > about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll > get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and > accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to > deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books > that you need. > > > I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, > as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. > I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few > semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow > she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work > with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when > it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you > eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's > because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if > they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're > blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the > loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't > mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve > some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's > ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the > future. > > Good luck, > On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check the >> >> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >> >> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but when >> >> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to follow >> >> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >> professor to make. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>> >>>> a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>> you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi all, >>>>> > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>> get. >>>>> > Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>> scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> > >>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>> I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>> > >>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> > >>>>> > Ashley >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 21:41:20 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:41:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <001501ce4441$3d65d550$b8317ff0$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> <001501ce4441$3d65d550$b8317ff0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701ce4459$1f882fc0$5e988f40$@gmail.com> Could you switch your screen reader's language to German (or whichever language you are learning) and have it read the test? Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:50 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations When I was in school, the prof actually read me the exams because none of th readers spoke German. You might consider getting an electronic copy so you can review the words letter by letter with screen reader. Then you can email the test to prof after you're done. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations None except to fill in scantron. I was just making a suggestion since she is so worried about the pronunciation. On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, christopher nusbaum < dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > Just curious: if you were to have a braille copy of the test, what is > the point of having a reader? > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > > Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow > > along with the reader? > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < > > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > > > >> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > >> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, > >> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow > >> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll > >> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have > >>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you > >>> step out of their office. > >>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with > >>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a > >>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you > >>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the > >>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. > >>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > >>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > >>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > >>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This > >>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then > >>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > >>> > >>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but > >>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really > >>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some > >>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their > >>> right as professors to do. > >>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, > >>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > >>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. > >>> > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >>>> Arielle, > >>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me > arrange > >>>> for > >>>> > >>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this > >>>> violates school > >>>> > >>>> policy. > >>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own > >>>> readers > for > >>>> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take > >>>> the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat > >>>> then? > >>>> > >>>> Ashley > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>> > >>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you > >>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that > >>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office > >>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the > >>>> test in their office. > >>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the > >>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite > >>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically > >>>> not quite in line with school policy. > >>>> > >>>> Arielle > >>>> > >>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Ashley Bramlett > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>>> > >>>>> Arielle, > >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree > >>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing > >>>>> certificate. The > class > >> I > >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > >> Gosh. > >>>>> I > >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and > >>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me > >>>>> to do this. > >>>>> > >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts > >>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a > >>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > >>>>> > >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the > >>>>> option > to > >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the > >>>>> ADA. Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a > >>>>> lower grade using bad readers. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ashley > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>>>> > >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most > >>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced > >>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material > >>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they > >>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing > >>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting > >>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a > >>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and > >>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test > >>>>> or some such? > >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for > >>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. > >>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because > >>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an > >>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but > >>>>>> when I > >> had > >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the > >>>>>> person > >> was > >>>>>> a > >>>>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. > >>>>>> And > then > >>>>>> you > >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > >>>>>> > >> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring > >>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always > >>>>>>> provided me with > competent > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words > >>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I > >>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now > >>>>>>> and my next college. > >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations > >>>>>>>> you get. > >>>>>>>> Do > >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>>>>> scantron, > >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my > >>>>>>>> readers were > >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak > >>>>>>> slower > and > >>>>>>> repeat > >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read > >>>>>>> fast > >> and > >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took > >>>>>>> with > >> jaws > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > >> directly > >>>>>>> mark > >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. > If > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.c > >>>>> om > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>> info > for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > >> edu > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>> info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink > >> . > >>>>> net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > >>>>> .com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. > >> edu > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 21:43:55 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:43:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> Dave, Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a perfect solution, but do work. Dave At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille >translators. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the > vraille blazer? > > Thanks > > Hope _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Apr 28 21:48:36 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:48:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517D9934.4010006@tysdomain.com> I don't think nfbtrans will actually work on a 64 bit system. I actually made it work on 32 bits so it would work on a 64 bit system, but I don't remember/know where the version I worked on went. It's something I can do again though if needed. On 4/28/2013 3:43 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Dave, > > Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > > You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a perfect > solution, but do work. > > Dave > > At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille >> translators. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the >> vraille blazer? >>> Thanks >>> Hope > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From dandrews at visi.com Sun Apr 28 22:02:14 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:02:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: It was put in the public domain in about 1993. Dave At 04:43 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Dave, > >Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. > >Chris > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > >You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a perfect >solution, but do work. > >Dave > >At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille > >translators. > > > >Chris Nusbaum > > > >Sent from my iPhone > > > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the > > vraille blazer? > > > Thanks > > > Hope From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 22:01:24 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:01:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com> <005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, Writing and reading my notes again is big for me. I also read my textbook before a test so I can double-check the information. I also do something similar to what Sophie described, although instead of marking passages with a symbol for later I just copy and past important information into another file to make a truncated version of my notes. This serves as a study guide for all the big stuff I need to know. I also love studying in groups. Here's how I've made flash cards in the past, just using braille paper and a brailler. Cut the piece of braille paper into quarters and fold each quarter in half. With the fold of the crease facing up and alligned perpendicular to you, load the paper into the brailler. Write your vocab word below the crease, between it and the brailler. Take it out and flip the paper so that the fold of the crease faces down. Your word you just wrote should be on the part of the paper that is furthest away from you on the back. Load the paper in again and write the definition between the crease and the brailler. Take out the paper and make sure the fold is nice and clean. Now you have "flip flash cards." You can read the term on the front, then flip up the flap and check your definition. Hope this helps. On 4/28/13, Josh Gregory wrote: > Hey why do these notes look so familiar, oh wait I'm studying the same thing > for my finals. Or the same type of thing at least. In all seriousness though > I just wanted to give the size of the card, I think you mean 3 x 5". > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, Jewel wrote: > >> Two things I do are: >> 1. For vocabulary words or things I have to memorize the definition or >> one or two characteristics of, I use Excel. In the first column, I put >> the word or phrase. In the second column, I put the definition or >> whatever I'm trying to memorize. For example, recently I had to >> memorize the functions and locations of almost 60 different organs, >> ducts, arteries and veins in the fetal pig. The first column was >> labelled "Organ" (to make it simple), the second column was labelled >> "function," and the third column was labelled "location." Then, based >> on notes I'd taken and research from my book, lecture recordings, and >> the internet, I put what the organ/duct/artery/vein does in the >> second column, and where it is located in the third. When studying, I >> went down the first column and made myself speak (out loud, because I >> remember something better if I speak it) the function and location of >> each. Then, I did the same with the second column, requiring myself to >> speak the name of the organ and its location. Finally, I did the same >> with the third column. For more study, you can also sort >> alphabetically to mix it up a bit. >> >> The other technique I use is flash cards. I read in your post that you >> can't do this with Braille. I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. >> There is a special slate called a Jannus slate, which allows you to >> insert an index card (the smaller size, I forget dimensions), and >> write in interpoint. So, you can put the word on one side and the >> definition on the other. I do this when I have only a few vocabulary >> words to study (20 or less), since it does take me quite a lot of time >> to make the flash cards, but I find that I learn the words and >> definitions just by making the flash cards, and reviewing them is just >> extra practice. >> >> If a professor provides a study guide, I always use it in studying. I >> find that if the professor put the effort into making a study guide, >> it's worth my time to use it. >> >> Also, when I'm reading a chapter or listening to a lecture, I write my >> notes like this: >> Primary Topic >> *Secondary Topic and basic information like definition >> -points about the secondary topic, such as examples >> --any further details about the point that should be listed, rather >> than written out. >> >> I'll give an example. Here is a portion of my notes from Biology on >> chapter 56: Population Ecology: >> >> Ecology: study of interactions of organisms and their environments >> *biotic: interactions between living organisms >> *abiotic: interaction between living and nonliving L >> >> Levels of study in ecology: >> *organismal >> -physiological >> -behavioural >> *population >> *community >> *ecosystem >> >> Population ecology: The study of what factors affect population size >> and how these factors change over time and space *demography: the >> study of birth rates, death rates, age distributions, and the sizes of >> populations >> ... >> The carrying capacity is difficult to identify. >> *Logistic growth difficult to measure accurately because of range of >> factors; K can vary temporally *Density-dependent factors: Impact is >> correlated with the size of the population -With a bigger population, >> there is a bigger impact. >> --competition >> --food supply >> --habitat for living and breathing >> --predation >> --parasites >> --disease >> *Density-independent factors: Forces that impact a population >> regardless of size >> --weather (usually) >> --drought >> --fire >> >> I hope that wasn't too long, but I wanted to show you a good example >> of how I write my notes. If I read the chapter before class (which I >> confess, I don't always do), I will make the notes based on the >> chapter, then add points with * and - from the lecture. This makes it >> really easy to study, since I don't have to re-read the chapter, >> re-listen to the lecture, or review the powerpoint. I often find that >> the answers for the study guide are easy to find with this note-taking >> format. >> >> I hope that helps! >> ~~Jewel >> >> On 4/28/13, David Andrews wrote: >>> Yes, you can read more at: >>> http://q-continuum.net/qread/ >>> >>> \At 01:01 AM 4/27/2013, you wrote: >>>> Is QRead a program for the pc/ -----Original >>>> Message----- From: nabs-l >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, >>>> 2013 1:57 AM To: National Association of Blind >>>> Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] >>>> study suggestions I use a program called QRead >>>> which allows me to open just about any textbook >>>> format and save unlimited bookmarks, like >>>> leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the >>>> Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight >>>> feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my >>>> own notes of course, in class and while reading. >>>> And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually >>>> getting really good at these days, in lifht of >>>> the events rhat took place at my old university >>>> in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! >>>> -Jamie Principato Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, >>>> 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> wrote: > Hi all, > > >>>> So how do you all like to study? Some techniques >>>> to review material such as reading highlighted >>>> text are not available to us. Same with marking >>>> passages with post-it notes. I do take notes >>>> while reading which is an integral part of >>>> studying for tests. > I often find my notes >>>> though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take >>>> shorter notes from those original notes or I >>>> summarize the chapter. > I use a vr stream or my >>>> vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark >>>> feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot >>>> remember what number I assigned to each passage. >>>> How does that highlight book mark feature work? >>>> This may help in marking key words or concepts >>>> such as theories defined for sociology. > > How >>>> do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are >>>> tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot >>>> to memorize. > I struggled with that in foreign >>>> languages too. > > So far I simply write the >>>> definition and read it and say it aloud; > then >>>> state it from memory without my notes. Many >>>> students use flash cards they say. But I cannot >>>> do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix >>>> up the words and definitions like you would do >>>> with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is >>>> just mix up the order of words as I study them >>>> on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from >>>> top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the >>>> middle or some random point. > > Also, has >>>> looking up information been a challenge? It is >>>> for me. The braille note does not search across >>>> files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and >>>> key things as sighted people do. I usually end >>>> up asking my reader to assist me in looking it >>>> up in the book. I write down what the book says; >>>> often in my own words and make note of the page. >>>> If I have the book through learning ally, I can >>>> go back to the page if needed then. > A good >>>> reader will check the index for key terms and >>>> words that resemble key terms. > > If its not >>>> there, I go back to my notes and search. I put >>>> the topic for the class on the top of my notes >>>> which often helps me in finding the right area >>>> or file to look in. I will write the date as >>>> well on the top of my electronic page. I create >>>> a file in my braille note with key items for >>>> review. I find it helpful to have a study guide >>>> from the professor and follow that if we have >>>> one. > > I’d use the practice tests on the >>>> online websites if they were accessible; but >>>> often they’re not. > Sometimes the textbook >>>> itself has review questions and I might use >>>> those to review if it looks helpful. > If I’m >>>> totally stuck on some concepts and know its on >>>> the final, I ask my professors. I find that >>>> usually they’re helpful in office hours. > > >>>> Ashley > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or >>>> get your account info for nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>> your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>> your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 22:04:29 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:04:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <517d2077.a75cec0a.671e.ffff83b4@mx.google.com> References: <517d2077.a75cec0a.671e.ffff83b4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <003201ce445c$5b820250$128606f0$@gmail.com> Hey Sophie, What is that book? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks, Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 9:13 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature I also ran across a blind Kung Fu master in a young adult series recently. Though a lot of blind characters in literature reflect stereotypes, there are a few exceptions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" wrote: I think the Avatar series, the TV show not the blue people, might have a few novels out. If so there is a blind character in there who is pretty cool, although the show plays off the stereotype that blind people can use sound to know everything around them. Also, you might want to consider some of the commics. Dare Devel is the one that most readily comes to mind, but there are a few others that feature blind characters too. On 4/27/13, melissa Green wrote: Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. But there is one scene that I would use that I think is appropriate and brings about discussiion. I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie McGinnity" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" wrote: Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their Adventures in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something like The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held for ransom.--Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature Hello- Two of my best friends from college were international students from Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them what they knew. they both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had never seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may be a difficult or sparse topic. best of luck Carrie Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: BS"D Dear NABS, I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my thesis. I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! Kind regards, Leye-Shprintse Envoyé de mon iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t 104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer %4 0gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gm ail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mai l.com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g mail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104 %40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud e%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 22:10:44 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:10:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in literature In-Reply-To: <517d2077.a75cec0a.671e.ffff83b4@mx.google.com> References: <517d2077.a75cec0a.671e.ffff83b4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I read a book a few years ago which may or not have been listed on here because I forgot the title, but it was about a sighted boy who had a bad home life but started reading for this blind woman. He eventually became friends with her and somehow wound up living with her by the end of the book. It was kind of cool because the woman made Gourmet soups for a living and sold them, so it showed blind people could cook for themselves which is something I've noticed a lot of people assume we can't do. There's also a book called "Comes the Blind Fury" that I found on one of my old SD cards. It's kind of a stretch, but it's about this girl who moves with her family to a seaside town called Paradise Point. While exxploring her bedroom she finds a doll in the closet and names her Amanda. Years ago a blind girl named Amanda had been killed when her classmates teased and taunted her; while trying to get away she fell off a cliff into the sea. Amanda's Spirit roams Paradise Point, and after Michelle injures her leg and her classmates begin taunting her too the spirit of Amanda becomes her only friend. It's a horror story by John Saul. On 4/28/13, Sophie Trist wrote: > I also ran across a blind Kung Fu master in a young adult series > recently. Though a lot of blind characters in literature reflect > stereotypes, there are a few exceptions. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 20:32:38 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > literature > > The blind swordsmen from japan. I Ziratuchi or something like > that. Also, > the Dare Devil. Commic books. There is a blind jedi who is > evil in some > sort of series or something. There was a blind ranger in the R > A Salvatore > books; he was a skilled combattent. There is a true story about > Harry > Cordillo; he was amazing. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > Manwaring > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > literature > > There are random blind characters all over the place in > literature, though > I've more often than not seen them in very minor roles which, > though they > are not central to the story, still tend to reflect the > stereotypes we all > know well. Also, Dr. Jernigan gave a banquet address called > "Blindness: is > Literature Against Us?," which can be found on nfb.org. I'm > reading an epic > fantasy series called A Song of Ice and Fire, and there is a very > elderly > blind man in a supporting role who is always being lead around by > some > servants, very slowly stumbling about on those rare occasions one > of his > servants isn't there, etc etc. > > On 4/27/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > I think the Avatar series, the TV show not the blue people, > might have > a few novels out. If so there is a blind character in there who > is > pretty cool, although the show plays off the stereotype that > blind > people can use sound to know everything around them. Also, you > might > want to consider some of the commics. Dare Devel is the one > that most > readily comes to mind, but there are a few others that feature > blind > characters too. > > On 4/27/13, melissa Green wrote: > Personally, I wouldn't use Jane eyre completely. > But there is one scene that I would use that I think is > appropriate > and brings about discussiion. > I wish I could think of some books right now. But I can't. > > Blessings, > Sincerely, > Melissa and Pj > Find me on: > Twitter melissa5674 > facebook Melissa R Green > Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Julie McGinnity" To: ; "National Association of Blind > Students > mailing list" Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:51 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > literature > > > There is a book called Girl, Stolen by April Henry that is about > a > blind girl who is kidnapped. Jane Eyre is a good one in my > opinion. > But if you're looking for something a bit more about blind > characters > adjusting to blindness you can always find Follow my Leader. > Blind > Sighted is another more recent one. If you want something a > little > more fantastical, there is a blind character in Libba Bray's new > book > the Diviners. There is also Beastly, which was made into a > movie a > couple years ago. But those are more modern and American(except > for > Jane Eyre). Even so, they might be interesting reads for you. > > On 4/25/13, Joe wrote: > Focus on the Family featured a blind character in their > Adventures > in Odyssey series. Not literature, strictly speaking, though the > radio show did produce some films and book editions, I believe. > Also, I forget the exact name of the book, but was it something > like > The Seeing Summer? It's about the girl who is kidnapped and held > for > ransom.--Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Carrie > Gilmer > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research: Representation of blindness in > literature > > Hello- > Two of my best friends from college were international students > from > Sweden, over 25 years ago. we are still very close. Asked them > what > they knew. > they > both said they can recall absolutely no blind character in lit > anywhere from childhood or young adulthood, and both also had > never > seen a blind person until sometime after coming to U.S. ...may > be a > difficult or sparse topic. > best of luck > Carrie > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > > Hi, > > I don't know of anything specifically Swedish, but I've seen > several depictions of blindness depicted in English literature. > There is one book called, "Hannah," where a blind girl wants to > go > to school. She seems super dependent in there to me, but the > book > is also set in the 19th century so back then that might have > been > more common. In the end she participates in some sort of > harvesting contest to try to raise money to buy a brailler, and > when she can't fathom how she's won she finds that the town kept > putting their picked fruits/vegitables in her basket instead of > their own. There is also a book I've come across called, "From > Charlie's Point of View, although I haven't really read it. > > On 4/23/13, Leye-Shprintse wrote: > BS"D > > Dear NABS, > > I'm a blind student and it's time for me to start writing my > thesis. > I've chosen to write about the representation of blindness in > Swedish children's and youth literature. I wonder if you've some > ideas where I can rasearch information to my thesis, do you know > if someone else have written about this subject? I think it's a > very important subject but since Swedish isn't a big language I > can't find so much information here. I'm happy for all ideas you > can give me! It feels so big to write a thesis so I'm a bit > overwhelmed! Forgive my bad English! > > Kind regards, > Leye-Shprintse > > Envoyé de mon iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t > 104 > %40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer > %4 > 0gm > ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gm > ail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g > mai > l.com > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri > Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for > the > Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his > only > Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may > have > eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > mail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104 > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 22:09:43 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:09:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003801ce445d$16a2fa30$43e8ee90$@gmail.com> Great. Could you pass along the URL to download it? Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator It was put in the public domain in about 1993. Dave At 04:43 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Dave, > >Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. > >Chris > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David >Andrews >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > >You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a >perfect solution, but do work. > >Dave > >At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille > >translators. > > > >Chris Nusbaum > > > >Sent from my iPhone > > > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the > > vraille blazer? > > > Thanks > > > Hope _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From kaybaycar at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 22:22:53 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:22:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <002701ce4459$1f882fc0$5e988f40$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <-3860162607920703698@unknownmsgid> <001501ce4441$3d65d550$b8317ff0$@gmail.com> <002701ce4459$1f882fc0$5e988f40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a quick point about readers. Sometimes a reader can't pronounce anything better than jaws can. The only difference is that we are used to jaws' pronunciations. Also, with foreign language, it's easy enough to handle. If you ask your professor to write up the foreign language test in a word doc and change the language in Microsoft word, that problem is solved. Jaws thinks it needs to speak the different language when it sees it in Microsoft word. Don't ask me why it works... But it does. On 4/28/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Could you switch your screen reader's language to German (or whichever > language you are learning) and have it read the test? > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:50 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > When I was in school, the prof actually read me the exams because none of > th > readers spoke German. You might consider getting an electronic copy so you > can review the words letter by letter with screen reader. Then you can > email > the test to prof after you're done. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > None except to fill in scantron. I was just making a suggestion since she > is > so worried about the pronunciation. > > > > > On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, christopher nusbaum < > dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Just curious: if you were to have a braille copy of the test, what is >> the point of having a reader? >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 28, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >> > Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >> > along with the reader? >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> > >> >> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >> >> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, >> >> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >> >> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll >> >> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. >> >> Arielle >> >> >> >> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have >> >>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you >> >>> step out of their office. >> >>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >> >>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a >> >>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you >> >>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the >> >>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. >> >>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >> >>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >> >>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >> >>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This >> >>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then >> >>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >> >>> >> >>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >> >>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really >> >>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some >> >>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their >> >>> right > as professors to do. >> >>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >> >>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >> >>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >> >>> >> >>> Arielle >> >>> >> >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> >>>> Arielle, >> >>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >> arrange >> >>>> for >> >>>> >> >>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >> >>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >> >>>> violates school >> >>>> >> >>>> policy. >> >>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >> >>>> readers >> for >> >>>> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take >> >>>> the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat >> >>>> then? >> >>>> >> >>>> Ashley >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >> >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >>>> >> >>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their > office. >> >>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >> >>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that >> >>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office >> >>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the >> >>>> test > in their office. >> >>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >> >>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >> >>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically >> >>>> not quite in line with school policy. >> >>>> >> >>>> Arielle >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >> >>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> >>>>> Ashley Bramlett >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Arielle, >> >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >> >>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >> >>>>> certificate. The >> class >> >> I >> >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >> >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >> >> Gosh. >> >>>>> I >> >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >> >>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >> >>>>> to do this. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts >> >>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a >> >>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >> >>>>> >> >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >> >>>>> option >> to >> >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the >> >>>>> ADA. Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a >> >>>>> lower grade using bad readers. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Ashley >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >>>>> >> >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >> >>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >> >>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >> >>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >> >>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >> >>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >> >>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a >> >>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and >> >>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test >> >>>>> or > some such? >> >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >> >>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. >> >>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because >> >>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an >> >>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who > might not care much. >> >>>>> Arielle >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but >> >>>>>> when I >> >> had >> >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >> >>>>>> person >> >> was >> >>>>>> a >> >>>>>> chem major and an A student. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. >> >>>>>> And >> then >> >>>>>> you >> >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >> >>>>>> >> >> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring >> >>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always >> >>>>>>> provided me with >> competent >> >>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >> >>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >> >>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now >> >>>>>>> and my next college. >> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >> >>>>>>>> you get. >> >>>>>>>> Do >> >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >> >>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >> >>>>>>>> scantron, >> >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >> >>>>>>>> readers were >> >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >> >>>>>>> slower >> and >> >>>>>>> repeat >> >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read >> >>>>>>> fast >> >> and >> >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >> >>>>>>> with >> >> jaws >> >>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >> >> directly >> >>>>>>> mark >> >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I >> >>>>>>> missed. >> If >> >>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another >> >>>>>>>> message. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Ashley >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>>>> info for >> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> mail.c >> >>>>> om >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>>> info >> for >> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >> >> edu >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>> info >> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart >> hlink >> >> . >> >>>>> net >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> >>>>> .com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart >> hlink.net >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >> >> edu >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From dandrews at visi.com Sun Apr 28 22:27:23 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:27:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <003801ce445d$16a2fa30$43e8ee90$@gmail.com> References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> <003801ce445d$16a2fa30$43e8ee90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Google is your friend. At 05:09 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Great. Could you pass along the URL to download it? > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:02 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > >It was put in the public domain in about 1993. > >Dave > >At 04:43 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > >Dave, > > > >Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. > > > >Chris > > > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >Public Relations Committee > >Maryland Association of Blind Students > >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David > >Andrews > >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > > > >You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a > >perfect solution, but do work. > > > >Dave > > > >At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille > > >translators. > > > > > >Chris Nusbaum > > > > > >Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > > > > > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the > > > vraille blazer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Hope From dandrews at visi.com Sun Apr 28 22:28:15 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:28:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <003801ce445d$16a2fa30$43e8ee90$@gmail.com> References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> <003801ce445d$16a2fa30$43e8ee90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is also a GUI interface which has been written called Wintrans or something like that. Dave At 05:09 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Great. Could you pass along the URL to download it? > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:02 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > >It was put in the public domain in about 1993. > >Dave > >At 04:43 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > >Dave, > > > >Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. > > > >Chris > > > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >Public Relations Committee > >Maryland Association of Blind Students > >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David > >Andrews > >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > > > >You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a > >perfect solution, but do work. > > > >Dave > > > >At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille > > >translators. > > > > > >Chris Nusbaum > > > > > >Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > > > > > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the > > > vraille blazer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Hope From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 23:22:26 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:22:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator Message-ID: <517daf40.a8b7ec0a.1d1a.0d63@mx.google.com> What do these braille translators do? I've never heard of them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the vraille blazer? Thanks Hope _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 23:52:43 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:52:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <517daf40.a8b7ec0a.1d1a.0d63@mx.google.com> References: <517daf40.a8b7ec0a.1d1a.0d63@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <004101ce446b$7a174d60$6e45e820$@gmail.com> Sophie, Braille translators are the programs which translate an electronic print document, such as a Microsoft Word file, into a format which can be used by a Braille embosser. Probably the most popular of these is Duxbury, which you may have heard of. Hope this helps, Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 7:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator What do these braille translators do? I've never heard of them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the vraille blazer? Thanks Hope _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 23:58:49 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:58:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: References: <-1172291040609146656@unknownmsgid> <002801ce4459$7c0b0c40$742124c0$@gmail.com> <003801ce445d$16a2fa30$43e8ee90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004201ce446c$544d4570$fce7d050$@gmail.com> Yes it is. Thank you for the reminder--a reminder which I often need. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator Google is your friend. At 05:09 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Great. Could you pass along the URL to download it? > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David >Andrews >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:02 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > >It was put in the public domain in about 1993. > >Dave > >At 04:43 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > >Dave, > > > >Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. > > > >Chris > > > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > >Public Relations Committee > >Maryland Association of Blind Students > >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David > >Andrews > >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > > > >You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a > >perfect solution, but do work. > > > >Dave > > > >At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free > > >braille translators. > > > > > >Chris Nusbaum > > > > > >Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > > > > > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with > > > > the > > > vraille blazer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Hope _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 01:10:31 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:10:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > > to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > >> for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >> school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >> exam > >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >> school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>> Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>> taking > >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>> clue > >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking > >>> up material and research, but > >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>> legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>> not > >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>> the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then > >>>> you > >>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, > >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>> But > >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>> problem > >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>> > get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>> > were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > >>>>> repeat > >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> > for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 01:13:50 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:13:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC><517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com><6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> Kirt, Thanks. I do intend to use that idea of process of elimination. If they mispronounce say 2 or 3 of five terms, I'll do what I know and then look at the rest carefully by having them spell words. If I get a reader though with an accent or poor english skills, I might have a hard time understanding how they spell; in this case, I'll ask them to spell using a word; meaning spell phonetically. Sometimes B and d sound alike in which case I'd have to ask which letter they mean. Thanks for reminding me about using the other definitions. Perhaps I'm just too worried. I just want a fair chance to succeed with a decent reader and I have no clue what sort of reader I'll get. Some student readers are decent. Others mumble and act like they've never read aloud in their lives. Its stressful to work with an untrained reader who may or may not know how to pronounce words. but that is what I have to deal with since I cannot bring my own readers in. I'll just do my best with what I have. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley, I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of luck to you! On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Tyler, > I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their poor > reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I > cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and > I > > lean in toward them to hear better. > Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the page > but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they sort > of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the > page, > > but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. > I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit > across from them is a good one. > > Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will > be > > perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. > For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something > with > > symbols. > So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille > note or my very old embosser on occasion. > Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i > go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. > I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in > electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. > > Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online > version > > is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the > links. > So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. > > So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a > sighted world. > But when a school is a huge community college and should make the > accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also > have > > a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. > What > > a concept! > Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this problem > since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. > Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a > long > > time ago. > > They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the brailling. > They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. > > Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the > professor and hopefully work something out. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley: > I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all > ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They > talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far > out there. > > First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. > its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them > to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but > try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. > Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest > finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department > x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will > be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they > mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's > generally a glossary. > > What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make > your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as > you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, > that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't > perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, > and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to > lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain > about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll > get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and > accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to > deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books > that you need. > > > I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, > as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. > I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few > semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow > she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work > with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when > it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you > eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's > because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if > they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're > blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the > loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't > mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve > some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's > ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the > future. > > Good luck, > On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check >> the >> >> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >> >> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but >> when >> >> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to follow >> >> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >> professor to make. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>> >>>> a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>> you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi all, >>>>> > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>> get. >>>>> > Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>> scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> > >>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>> were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>> I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>> > >>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> > >>>>> > Ashley >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that > > dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 01:18:28 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:18:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] study suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <6A02A7E1-0BA9-4C06-946D-3C34F1A337A9@gmail.com><005f01ce430c$a0998fd0$e1ccaf70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2661FE9D1BC941AAACD03EE20287B9DB@OwnerPC> Kaiti, I also read and write my notes to study. I am a kinesthetic learner. The act of writing definitely aids in memory. Neat idea for the brailler flash cards. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] study suggestions Hi Ashley, Writing and reading my notes again is big for me. I also read my textbook before a test so I can double-check the information. I also do something similar to what Sophie described, although instead of marking passages with a symbol for later I just copy and past important information into another file to make a truncated version of my notes. This serves as a study guide for all the big stuff I need to know. I also love studying in groups. Here's how I've made flash cards in the past, just using braille paper and a brailler. Cut the piece of braille paper into quarters and fold each quarter in half. With the fold of the crease facing up and alligned perpendicular to you, load the paper into the brailler. Write your vocab word below the crease, between it and the brailler. Take it out and flip the paper so that the fold of the crease faces down. Your word you just wrote should be on the part of the paper that is furthest away from you on the back. Load the paper in again and write the definition between the crease and the brailler. Take out the paper and make sure the fold is nice and clean. Now you have "flip flash cards." You can read the term on the front, then flip up the flap and check your definition. Hope this helps. On 4/28/13, Josh Gregory wrote: > Hey why do these notes look so familiar, oh wait I'm studying the same > thing > for my finals. Or the same type of thing at least. In all seriousness > though > I just wanted to give the size of the card, I think you mean 3 x 5". > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, Jewel wrote: > >> Two things I do are: >> 1. For vocabulary words or things I have to memorize the definition or >> one or two characteristics of, I use Excel. In the first column, I put >> the word or phrase. In the second column, I put the definition or >> whatever I'm trying to memorize. For example, recently I had to >> memorize the functions and locations of almost 60 different organs, >> ducts, arteries and veins in the fetal pig. The first column was >> labelled "Organ" (to make it simple), the second column was labelled >> "function," and the third column was labelled "location." Then, based >> on notes I'd taken and research from my book, lecture recordings, and >> the internet, I put what the organ/duct/artery/vein does in the >> second column, and where it is located in the third. When studying, I >> went down the first column and made myself speak (out loud, because I >> remember something better if I speak it) the function and location of >> each. Then, I did the same with the second column, requiring myself to >> speak the name of the organ and its location. Finally, I did the same >> with the third column. For more study, you can also sort >> alphabetically to mix it up a bit. >> >> The other technique I use is flash cards. I read in your post that you >> can't do this with Braille. I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. >> There is a special slate called a Jannus slate, which allows you to >> insert an index card (the smaller size, I forget dimensions), and >> write in interpoint. So, you can put the word on one side and the >> definition on the other. I do this when I have only a few vocabulary >> words to study (20 or less), since it does take me quite a lot of time >> to make the flash cards, but I find that I learn the words and >> definitions just by making the flash cards, and reviewing them is just >> extra practice. >> >> If a professor provides a study guide, I always use it in studying. I >> find that if the professor put the effort into making a study guide, >> it's worth my time to use it. >> >> Also, when I'm reading a chapter or listening to a lecture, I write my >> notes like this: >> Primary Topic >> *Secondary Topic and basic information like definition >> -points about the secondary topic, such as examples >> --any further details about the point that should be listed, rather >> than written out. >> >> I'll give an example. Here is a portion of my notes from Biology on >> chapter 56: Population Ecology: >> >> Ecology: study of interactions of organisms and their environments >> *biotic: interactions between living organisms >> *abiotic: interaction between living and nonliving L >> >> Levels of study in ecology: >> *organismal >> -physiological >> -behavioural >> *population >> *community >> *ecosystem >> >> Population ecology: The study of what factors affect population size >> and how these factors change over time and space *demography: the >> study of birth rates, death rates, age distributions, and the sizes of >> populations >> ... >> The carrying capacity is difficult to identify. >> *Logistic growth difficult to measure accurately because of range of >> factors; K can vary temporally *Density-dependent factors: Impact is >> correlated with the size of the population -With a bigger population, >> there is a bigger impact. >> --competition >> --food supply >> --habitat for living and breathing >> --predation >> --parasites >> --disease >> *Density-independent factors: Forces that impact a population >> regardless of size >> --weather (usually) >> --drought >> --fire >> >> I hope that wasn't too long, but I wanted to show you a good example >> of how I write my notes. If I read the chapter before class (which I >> confess, I don't always do), I will make the notes based on the >> chapter, then add points with * and - from the lecture. This makes it >> really easy to study, since I don't have to re-read the chapter, >> re-listen to the lecture, or review the powerpoint. I often find that >> the answers for the study guide are easy to find with this note-taking >> format. >> >> I hope that helps! >> ~~Jewel >> >> On 4/28/13, David Andrews wrote: >>> Yes, you can read more at: >>> http://q-continuum.net/qread/ >>> >>> \At 01:01 AM 4/27/2013, you wrote: >>>> Is QRead a program for the pc/ -----Original >>>> Message----- From: nabs-l >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, >>>> 2013 1:57 AM To: National Association of Blind >>>> Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] >>>> study suggestions I use a program called QRead >>>> which allows me to open just about any textbook >>>> format and save unlimited bookmarks, like >>>> leaving post it notes on pages. I also use the >>>> Kindle app on my iPad and use the highlight >>>> feature and zoom feature a lot. I still type my >>>> own notes of course, in class and while reading. >>>> And for subjects like Math, which I'm actually >>>> getting really good at these days, in lifht of >>>> the events rhat took place at my old university >>>> in Florida, nothing beats lots of practice! >>>> -Jamie Principato Sent from my iPhone On Apr 27, >>>> 2013, at 11:49 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> wrote: > Hi all, > > >>>> So how do you all like to study? Some techniques >>>> to review material such as reading highlighted >>>> text are not available to us. Same with marking >>>> passages with post-it notes. I do take notes >>>> while reading which is an integral part of >>>> studying for tests. > I often find my notes >>>> though are too lengthy from chapters, so I take >>>> shorter notes from those original notes or I >>>> summarize the chapter. > I use a vr stream or my >>>> vr stratus. Do you all use the book mark >>>> feature? I’ve tried but the thing is I cannot >>>> remember what number I assigned to each passage. >>>> How does that highlight book mark feature work? >>>> This may help in marking key words or concepts >>>> such as theories defined for sociology. > > How >>>> do you memorize vocabulary? For religion, we are >>>> tested on vocab and definitions and it’s a lot >>>> to memorize. > I struggled with that in foreign >>>> languages too. > > So far I simply write the >>>> definition and read it and say it aloud; > then >>>> state it from memory without my notes. Many >>>> students use flash cards they say. But I cannot >>>> do that with braille. I wish I had a way to mix >>>> up the words and definitions like you would do >>>> with flash cards. So far, what I’ve done is >>>> just mix up the order of words as I study them >>>> on hard copy braille. Instead of reading from >>>> top to bottom of the page, I’ll start in the >>>> middle or some random point. > > Also, has >>>> looking up information been a challenge? It is >>>> for me. The braille note does not search across >>>> files for wordds. I cannot skim for words and >>>> key things as sighted people do. I usually end >>>> up asking my reader to assist me in looking it >>>> up in the book. I write down what the book says; >>>> often in my own words and make note of the page. >>>> If I have the book through learning ally, I can >>>> go back to the page if needed then. > A good >>>> reader will check the index for key terms and >>>> words that resemble key terms. > > If its not >>>> there, I go back to my notes and search. I put >>>> the topic for the class on the top of my notes >>>> which often helps me in finding the right area >>>> or file to look in. I will write the date as >>>> well on the top of my electronic page. I create >>>> a file in my braille note with key items for >>>> review. I find it helpful to have a study guide >>>> from the professor and follow that if we have >>>> one. > > I’d use the practice tests on the >>>> online websites if they were accessible; but >>>> often they’re not. > Sometimes the textbook >>>> itself has review questions and I might use >>>> those to review if it looks helpful. > If I’m >>>> totally stuck on some concepts and know its on >>>> the final, I ask my professors. I find that >>>> usually they’re helpful in office hours. > > >>>> Ashley > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or >>>> get your account info for nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>> your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>> your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 01:19:51 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:19:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <517daf40.a8b7ec0a.1d1a.0d63@mx.google.com> References: <517daf40.a8b7ec0a.1d1a.0d63@mx.google.com> Message-ID: they probably translate text into braille just as duxbury does. -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 7:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator What do these braille translators do? I've never heard of them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the vraille blazer? Thanks Hope _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 02:09:44 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (blackbyrdfly at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:09:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> <6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> <4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <57C8D871-67E9-4C85-9A63-B50F1A4257EB@gmail.com> When I took Italian, and no readers who had taken Italian were available, I asked my professor to record the questions that would be written in Italian, and used JAWS for the questions in English. The recording was saved on a USB thumb drive that my teacher gave directly to the test proctor in the DSS office, and they gave it to me to listen to on their computer. This worked really well. I had perfect pronoun citation, the ability to rewind, fast forward and pause as needed, the DSS office didn't have to find a reader at all and there were no concerns about security or cheating. You might try talking to your professor about that. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 7:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Kirt, > Thanks. I do intend to use that idea of process of elimination. > If they mispronounce say 2 or 3 of five terms, I'll do what I know and then > look at the rest carefully by having them spell words. If I get a reader though with an accent or poor english skills, I might have a hard time understanding how they spell; in this case, I'll ask them to spell using a word; meaning spell phonetically. Sometimes B and d sound alike in which case I'd have to ask which letter they mean. > > Thanks for reminding me about using the other definitions. Perhaps I'm just too worried. I just want a fair chance to succeed with a decent reader and I have no clue what sort of reader I'll get. Some student readers are decent. Others mumble and act like they've never read aloud in their lives. > > Its stressful to work with an untrained reader who may or may not know how to pronounce words. but that is what I have to deal with since I cannot bring my own readers in. > > I'll just do my best with what I have. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley, > I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce > things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to > have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from > there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of > luck to you! > > On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi Tyler, >> I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their poor >> reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I >> cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and I >> >> lean in toward them to hear better. >> Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the page >> but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they sort >> of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the page, >> >> but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. >> I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit >> across from them is a good one. >> >> Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will be >> >> perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. >> For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something with >> >> symbols. >> So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille >> note or my very old embosser on occasion. >> Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i >> go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. >> I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in >> electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. >> >> Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online version >> >> is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the >> links. >> So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. >> >> So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a >> sighted world. >> But when a school is a huge community college and should make the >> accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also have >> >> a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. What >> >> a concept! >> Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this problem >> since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. >> Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a long >> >> time ago. >> >> They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the brailling. >> They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. >> >> Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the >> professor and hopefully work something out. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Littlefield, Tyler >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley: >> I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all >> ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They >> talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far >> out there. >> >> First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. >> its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them >> to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but >> try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. >> Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest >> finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department >> x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will >> be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they >> mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's >> generally a glossary. >> >> What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make >> your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as >> you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, >> that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't >> perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, >> and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to >> lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain >> about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll >> get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and >> accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to >> deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books >> that you need. >> >> >> I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, >> as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. >> I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few >> semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow >> she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work >> with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when >> it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you >> eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's >> because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if >> they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're >> blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the >> loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't >> mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve >> some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's >> ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the >> future. >> >> Good luck, >> On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check the >>> >>> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >>> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >>> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >>> >>> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but when >>> >>> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to follow >>> >>> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >>> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >>> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >>> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >>> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >>> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >>> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >>> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >>> professor to make. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>> taking >>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>>> >>>> I >>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>> clue >>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>> >>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>> looking >>>> up material and research, but >>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>> legal >>>> >>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>> not >>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>> grade using bad readers. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>> the test or some such? >>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>> >>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>>> you >>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>> colleges, >>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>>> and >>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>> But >>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>> problem >>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Hi all, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>> get. >>>>>> > Do >>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>> scantron, >>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>>> repeat >>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>>> to >>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>>> mark >>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>>> I >>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Ashley >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> >> dares not reason is a slave. >> Sent from my Toaster (tm). >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Mon Apr 29 02:24:19 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:24:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is information both about NFBTRANS and the GUI WINTRANS "frontend" that I forwarded to lists back in 2011. I believe the links are still valid: With help from a number of people, we have extended the life of NFBTRANS and the WINTRANS interface that allowed one to translate files into contracted braille from Windows. The old version would no longer run on Windows 7 64-bit computers, but this new version does. As many of you already know, NFBTRANS allows one to place formatting commands into plain text files to create reasonably good contracted braille. It does not directly handle HTML, DAISY or Microsoft word files as do the commercially available translators, and as does John Boyer's LIBLOUIS project and as his Braille Blaster project will. However, this software can provide an alternative that can fill in the gaps with a little work. Jamal Mazrui has assisted in creating a better installation procedure and has pulled together some documentation. Below is his note along with a number of links to documentation and other resources for those who feel they wish to make changes to the program. However, if you are interested in just downloading the updated version, you can find it at http://EmpowermentZone.com/wbtsetup.exe A zip archive containing the same files is available at http://EmpowermentZone.com/wbtsetup.zip This is open source software and is not officially supported by the National federation of the blind or any other individual. Still, there are number of people on these lists who can try to answer questions. If you are interested in learning more about the more ambitious Braille Blaster project led by John Boyer, check out http://www.abilitiessoft.com/ This project has the potential of producing braille directly from Microsoft Word, XML and DAISY files and is capable of doing so now if one has a little technical knowhow. Best regards, Steve Jacobson ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 20:33:39 -0400 From: Jamal Mazrui Subject: Announcing WinBT 2.0 - a free, open source Windows braille translator Now available at http://EmpowermentZone.com/wbtsetup.exe WinBT 2.0 is an updated distribution of the NFBTrans braille translator (BT), and the associated WinTrans graphical user interface (GUI). The original programmers are no longer active in the project, and the wintrans-bt.org web site is discontinued. Maintenance of NFBTrans has been led by Steve Jacobson as Vice President of the NFB in Computer Science. He recruited additional programmers, and improved the default configuration settings of NFBTrans. The original author of WinTrans chose not to reveal his or her identity, using the name "Anonymous John" instead. Since several years had elapsed since then (2003), we tried to find the author in case he or she now wished to be publicly acknowledged. Ultimately, we found him via Tom Dimeo, who had introduced WinTrans to the world in a podcast of the Main Menu program by ACB Radio (an audio tutorial included in this distribution). The two of them communicated about this new effort, and George McCoy has now authorized us to disclose that he is the one who authored WinTrans. Recent discussion about improving NFBTrans has occurred on the email list called "ProgrammingBlind," to which one can subscribe through the web site http://FreeLists.org The NFBTrans code was ported and recompiled by Tyler Littlefield, using Microsoft Visual C++ 2008, a free Express Edition of which is available at http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2008-editions/express The new build resulted in a 32-bit rather than 16-bit executable, thus allowing it to run under 64-bit Windows, which, unlike prior Windows versions, does not run 16-bit programs. The Visual Studio solution file, NFBTrans.sln, contains compiler configuration information that allows a developer to easily recompile the C code. Anyone who finds ways of improving the code, configuration settings, or documentation is encouraged to contribute such improvements back to the community. The WinTrans source code, WinTrans.bas, was recompiled by Jamal Mazrui using PowerBASIC 10.0, a commercial compiler available at http://powerbasic.com He also improved the WinTrans installer using Inno Setup 5, which is freely available at http://InnoSetup.org The script file, wbtsetup.iss, gives InnoSetup instructions for building the installer, wbtsetup.exe. It creates a desktop shortcut for launching the WinBT dialog, with an optional hotkey assignment, Alt+Control+B (for braille translator). The installer also creates a WinBT program group in the Windows Start/Programs menu with options for launching the program, reading the documentation, playing an audio tutorial, or uninstalling the program. By default, the documentation is opened at the end of the installation process, and the audio tutorial may optionally be played then as well. The program may also be launched by entering "WinBT" in the Windows Start/Run dialog (capitalization does not matter). The original distribution files for NFBTrans and WinTrans, nfbtr774.zip and winbt.zip (renamed from winbt.exe), are included in the WinBT program directory. Also included there is the first public release of the WinTrans 1.0 source code in the PowerBASIC language, contained in WinTrans.zip. By default, the program directory is located at C:\WinBT The WinBT installer, wbtsetup.exe, may be downloaded at http://EmpowermentZone.com/wbtsetup.exe A zip archive containing the same files is available at http://EmpowermentZone.com/wbtsetup.zip This documentation is also available online at http://EmpowermentZone.com/WinBT.htm The updated distribution can give a new life to WinTrans and NFBTrans. The installer makes the braille translator friendly to install, use, and learn. The documentation gives developers information about recompiling the source code, thus opening a possible path to improvements contributed by the open source community. The original WinTrans and NFBTrans archives are also included, so that anyone can start from there instead if preferred. WinBT 2.0 has resulted from constructive collaboration among various parties for the common good of blind people. Although imperfections undoubtedly remain, there is clear progress that is worth sharing. We hope these contributions extend the value of NFBTrans and related technologies to users of electronic braille! __________ View the list's information and change your settings at http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:28:15 -0500, David Andrews wrote: >There is also a GUI interface which has been written called Wintrans >or something like that. >Dave >At 05:09 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >>Great. Could you pass along the URL to download it? >> >>Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>Public Relations Committee >>Maryland Association of Blind Students >>Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews >>Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:02 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator >> >>It was put in the public domain in about 1993. >> >>Dave >> >>At 04:43 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >> >Dave, >> > >> >Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. >> > >> >Chris >> > >> >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> >Public Relations Committee >> >Maryland Association of Blind Students >> >Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David >> >Andrews >> >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM >> >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator >> > >> >You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a >> >perfect solution, but do work. >> > >> >Dave >> > >> >At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >> > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille >> > >translators. >> > > >> > >Chris Nusbaum >> > > >> > >Sent from my iPhone >> > > >> > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: >> > > >> > > > Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the >> > > vraille blazer? >> > > > Thanks >> > > > Hope >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From dandrews at visi.com Mon Apr 29 02:35:19 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:35:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator In-Reply-To: <517daf40.a8b7ec0a.1d1a.0d63@mx.google.com> References: <517daf40.a8b7ec0a.1d1a.0d63@mx.google.com> Message-ID: They translate and format text into Grade 2 Braille for printing on paper primarily. Dave At 06:22 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >What do these braille translators do? I've never heard of them. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:43:55 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > >Dave, > >Thank you for the correction. I didn't know NFBTrans was free. > >Chris > >Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >Public Relations Committee >Maryland Association of Blind Students >Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:34 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free Braille translator > >You are wrong, there is NFBTRANS and Turbo Braille. Neither is a perfect >solution, but do work. > >Dave > >At 01:23 PM 4/28/2013, you wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any free braille >translators. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:06 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > >Does anyone know of a free Braille translator that works with the >vraille blazer? >Thanks >Hope From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 04:34:35 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:34:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <57C8D871-67E9-4C85-9A63-B50F1A4257EB@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> <6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> <4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> <57C8D871-67E9-4C85-9A63-B50F1A4257EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Now that is a great idea. If you could isolate the parts of the test that need the pronunciations and have your professor or someone else who can speak the words propperly onto a recording that might work. If the test has it throughout it might be problematic, but otherwise it sounds like it would be worth a shot; I'll have to remember that myself for when I take a foreign language, I'm thinking German actually and I don't know if we have those readers here either. On 4/28/13, blackbyrdfly at gmail.com wrote: > When I took Italian, and no readers who had taken Italian were available, I > asked my professor to record the questions that would be written in Italian, > and used JAWS for the questions in English. The recording was saved on a USB > thumb drive that my teacher gave directly to the test proctor in the DSS > office, and they gave it to me to listen to on their computer. This worked > really well. I had perfect pronoun citation, the ability to rewind, fast > forward and pause as needed, the DSS office didn't have to find a reader at > all and there were no concerns about security or cheating. You might try > talking to your professor about that. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 7:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > >> Kirt, >> Thanks. I do intend to use that idea of process of elimination. >> If they mispronounce say 2 or 3 of five terms, I'll do what I know and >> then >> look at the rest carefully by having them spell words. If I get a reader >> though with an accent or poor english skills, I might have a hard time >> understanding how they spell; in this case, I'll ask them to spell using a >> word; meaning spell phonetically. Sometimes B and d sound alike in which >> case I'd have to ask which letter they mean. >> >> Thanks for reminding me about using the other definitions. Perhaps I'm >> just too worried. I just want a fair chance to succeed with a decent >> reader and I have no clue what sort of reader I'll get. Some student >> readers are decent. Others mumble and act like they've never read aloud in >> their lives. >> >> Its stressful to work with an untrained reader who may or may not know how >> to pronounce words. but that is what I have to deal with since I cannot >> bring my own readers in. >> >> I'll just do my best with what I have. >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:38 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce >> things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to >> have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from >> there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of >> luck to you! >> >> On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi Tyler, >>> I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their >>> poor >>> reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I >>> cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and >>> I >>> >>> lean in toward them to hear better. >>> Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the >>> page >>> but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they >>> sort >>> of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the >>> page, >>> >>> but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. >>> I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit >>> across from them is a good one. >>> >>> Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will >>> be >>> >>> perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. >>> For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something >>> with >>> >>> symbols. >>> So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille >>> note or my very old embosser on occasion. >>> Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i >>> go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. >>> I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in >>> electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. >>> >>> Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online >>> version >>> >>> is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the >>> links. >>> So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. >>> >>> So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a >>> sighted world. >>> But when a school is a huge community college and should make the >>> accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also >>> have >>> >>> a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. >>> What >>> >>> a concept! >>> Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this >>> problem >>> since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. >>> Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a >>> long >>> >>> time ago. >>> >>> They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the >>> brailling. >>> They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. >>> >>> Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the >>> professor and hopefully work something out. >>> >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Littlefield, Tyler >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley: >>> I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all >>> ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They >>> talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far >>> out there. >>> >>> First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. >>> its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them >>> to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but >>> try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. >>> Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest >>> finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department >>> x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will >>> be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they >>> mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's >>> generally a glossary. >>> >>> What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make >>> your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as >>> you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, >>> that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't >>> perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, >>> and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to >>> lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain >>> about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll >>> get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and >>> accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to >>> deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books >>> that you need. >>> >>> >>> I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, >>> as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. >>> I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few >>> semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow >>> she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work >>> with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when >>> it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you >>> eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's >>> because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if >>> they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're >>> blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the >>> loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't >>> mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve >>> some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's >>> ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the >>> future. >>> >>> Good luck, >>> On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check >>>> the >>>> >>>> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >>>> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >>>> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >>>> >>>> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but >>>> when >>>> >>>> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to >>>> follow >>>> >>>> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >>>> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >>>> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >>>> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >>>> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >>>> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >>>> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >>>> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >>>> professor to make. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>>> taking >>>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class >>>>> I >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>> Gosh. >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>>> clue >>>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>>> >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>> looking >>>>> up material and research, but >>>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>>> legal >>>>> >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>>> not >>>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>>> the test or some such? >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>>>>> had >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >>>>>> was >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>> >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>>>> you >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>> colleges, >>>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>>> problem >>>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Hi all, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>>> get. >>>>>>> > Do >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>>>> repeat >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with >>>>>>> jaws >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>>> directly >>>>>>> mark >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Ashley >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that >>> >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> Sent from my Toaster (tm). >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dandrews at visi.com Mon Apr 29 16:08:20 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 11:08:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking Environmental Engineer Message-ID: We have a customer here in MN who is a high school senior. He would like to get a degree in, and pursue a career in "Environmental Engineering." He would be interested in talking to any blind or visually impaired person he can, who is working in the field, to discuss how to accomplish certain tasks, what he should expect, etc. If you are such a person and would be interested in talking to him, send your contact info to me at david.b.andrews at state.mn.us and I will pass it along. Thanks in advance! Dave From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 19:57:20 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:57:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> Hi Justin and everyone, Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing a reader state these words. No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against braille was the following: 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam with jaws. 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam now. It was a pr exam btw. So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. She would make the same arguments I believe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > > to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > >> for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >> school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >> exam > >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >> school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>> Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>> taking > >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>> clue > >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking > >>> up material and research, but > >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>> legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>> not > >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>> the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then > >>>> you > >>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, > >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>> But > >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>> problem > >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>> > get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>> > were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > >>>>> repeat > >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> > for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 20:00:55 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:00:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <57C8D871-67E9-4C85-9A63-B50F1A4257EB@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC><517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com><6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC><4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> <57C8D871-67E9-4C85-9A63-B50F1A4257EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <802C23496FF4411EA636480B440ABB31@OwnerPC> Hello, I love this idea. I'll discuss with the professor. Of course the testing center would have to agree. If it doesn't violate a policy, I think this would be great. The professor could record the foreign word terms into a file and put them on a thumb drive. Then I just listen term by term to match them. Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 10:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations When I took Italian, and no readers who had taken Italian were available, I asked my professor to record the questions that would be written in Italian, and used JAWS for the questions in English. The recording was saved on a USB thumb drive that my teacher gave directly to the test proctor in the DSS office, and they gave it to me to listen to on their computer. This worked really well. I had perfect pronoun citation, the ability to rewind, fast forward and pause as needed, the DSS office didn't have to find a reader at all and there were no concerns about security or cheating. You might try talking to your professor about that. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 7:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Kirt, > Thanks. I do intend to use that idea of process of elimination. > If they mispronounce say 2 or 3 of five terms, I'll do what I know and > then > look at the rest carefully by having them spell words. If I get a reader > though with an accent or poor english skills, I might have a hard time > understanding how they spell; in this case, I'll ask them to spell using a > word; meaning spell phonetically. Sometimes B and d sound alike in which > case I'd have to ask which letter they mean. > > Thanks for reminding me about using the other definitions. Perhaps I'm > just too worried. I just want a fair chance to succeed with a decent > reader and I have no clue what sort of reader I'll get. Some student > readers are decent. Others mumble and act like they've never read aloud in > their lives. > > Its stressful to work with an untrained reader who may or may not know how > to pronounce words. but that is what I have to deal with since I cannot > bring my own readers in. > > I'll just do my best with what I have. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley, > I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce > things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to > have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from > there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of > luck to you! > > On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi Tyler, >> I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their >> poor >> reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I >> cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and >> I >> >> lean in toward them to hear better. >> Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the >> page >> but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they >> sort >> of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the >> page, >> >> but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. >> I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit >> across from them is a good one. >> >> Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will >> be >> >> perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. >> For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something >> with >> >> symbols. >> So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille >> note or my very old embosser on occasion. >> Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i >> go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. >> I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in >> electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. >> >> Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online >> version >> >> is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the >> links. >> So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. >> >> So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a >> sighted world. >> But when a school is a huge community college and should make the >> accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also >> have >> >> a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. >> What >> >> a concept! >> Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this >> problem >> since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. >> Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a >> long >> >> time ago. >> >> They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the >> brailling. >> They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. >> >> Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the >> professor and hopefully work something out. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Littlefield, Tyler >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley: >> I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all >> ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They >> talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far >> out there. >> >> First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. >> its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them >> to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but >> try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. >> Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest >> finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department >> x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will >> be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they >> mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's >> generally a glossary. >> >> What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make >> your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as >> you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, >> that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't >> perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, >> and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to >> lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain >> about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll >> get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and >> accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to >> deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books >> that you need. >> >> >> I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, >> as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. >> I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few >> semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow >> she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work >> with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when >> it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you >> eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's >> because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if >> they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're >> blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the >> loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't >> mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve >> some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's >> ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the >> future. >> >> Good luck, >> On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check >>> the >>> >>> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >>> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >>> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >>> >>> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but >>> when >>> >>> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to >>> follow >>> >>> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >>> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >>> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >>> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >>> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >>> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >>> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >>> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >>> professor to make. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>> taking >>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class >>>> I >>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>> Gosh. >>>> >>>> I >>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>> clue >>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>> >>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>> looking >>>> up material and research, but >>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>> legal >>>> >>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>> not >>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>> grade using bad readers. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>> the test or some such? >>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>>>> had >>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >>>>> was >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>> >>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>>> you >>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>> colleges, >>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>>> and >>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>> But >>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>> problem >>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Hi all, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>> get. >>>>>> > Do >>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>> scantron, >>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>>> repeat >>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast >>>>>> and >>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with >>>>>> jaws >>>>>> to >>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>> directly >>>>>> mark >>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>>> I >>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Ashley >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that >> >> dares not reason is a slave. >> Sent from my Toaster (tm). >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 20:10:02 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:10:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <802C23496FF4411EA636480B440ABB31@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> <6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> <4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> <57C8D871-67E9-4C85-9A63-B50F1A4257EB@gmail.com> <802C23496FF4411EA636480B440ABB31@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, Why, exactly, with the testing center need to agree? It seems to me the testing center would only need to agree if you were taking the test there. If, hypothetically, there was a spare department staff member or something who could be your reader, and your professor was okay with you doing the test in her office, or a study room in the library, or somewhere else… Why would the testing center need to agree to anything? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2013, at 2:00 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Hello, > I love this idea. I'll discuss with the professor. Of course the testing center would have to agree. > If it doesn't violate a policy, I think this would be great. The professor could record the foreign word terms into a file and put them on a thumb drive. Then I just listen term by term to match them. > > Thanks. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 10:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > When I took Italian, and no readers who had taken Italian were available, I asked my professor to record the questions that would be written in Italian, and used JAWS for the questions in English. The recording was saved on a USB thumb drive that my teacher gave directly to the test proctor in the DSS office, and they gave it to me to listen to on their computer. This worked really well. I had perfect pronoun citation, the ability to rewind, fast forward and pause as needed, the DSS office didn't have to find a reader at all and there were no concerns about security or cheating. You might try talking to your professor about that. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 7:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > >> Kirt, >> Thanks. I do intend to use that idea of process of elimination. >> If they mispronounce say 2 or 3 of five terms, I'll do what I know and then >> look at the rest carefully by having them spell words. If I get a reader though with an accent or poor english skills, I might have a hard time understanding how they spell; in this case, I'll ask them to spell using a word; meaning spell phonetically. Sometimes B and d sound alike in which case I'd have to ask which letter they mean. >> >> Thanks for reminding me about using the other definitions. Perhaps I'm just too worried. I just want a fair chance to succeed with a decent reader and I have no clue what sort of reader I'll get. Some student readers are decent. Others mumble and act like they've never read aloud in their lives. >> >> Its stressful to work with an untrained reader who may or may not know how to pronounce words. but that is what I have to deal with since I cannot bring my own readers in. >> >> I'll just do my best with what I have. >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:38 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce >> things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to >> have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from >> there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of >> luck to you! >> >> On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi Tyler, >>> I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their poor >>> reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I >>> cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and I >>> >>> lean in toward them to hear better. >>> Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the page >>> but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they sort >>> of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the page, >>> >>> but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. >>> I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit >>> across from them is a good one. >>> >>> Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will be >>> >>> perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. >>> For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something with >>> >>> symbols. >>> So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille >>> note or my very old embosser on occasion. >>> Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i >>> go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. >>> I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in >>> electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. >>> >>> Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online version >>> >>> is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the >>> links. >>> So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. >>> >>> So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a >>> sighted world. >>> But when a school is a huge community college and should make the >>> accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also have >>> >>> a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. What >>> >>> a concept! >>> Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this problem >>> since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. >>> Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a long >>> >>> time ago. >>> >>> They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the brailling. >>> They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. >>> >>> Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the >>> professor and hopefully work something out. >>> >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Littlefield, Tyler >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley: >>> I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all >>> ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They >>> talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far >>> out there. >>> >>> First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. >>> its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them >>> to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but >>> try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. >>> Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest >>> finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department >>> x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will >>> be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they >>> mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's >>> generally a glossary. >>> >>> What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make >>> your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as >>> you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, >>> that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't >>> perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, >>> and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to >>> lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain >>> about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll >>> get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and >>> accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to >>> deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books >>> that you need. >>> >>> >>> I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, >>> as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. >>> I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few >>> semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow >>> she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work >>> with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when >>> it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you >>> eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's >>> because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if >>> they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're >>> blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the >>> loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't >>> mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve >>> some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's >>> ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the >>> future. >>> >>> Good luck, >>> On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check the >>>> >>>> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >>>> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >>>> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >>>> >>>> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but when >>>> >>>> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to follow >>>> >>>> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >>>> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >>>> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >>>> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >>>> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >>>> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >>>> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >>>> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >>>> professor to make. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>>> taking >>>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>>> clue >>>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>>> >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>> looking >>>>> up material and research, but >>>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>>> legal >>>>> >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>>> not >>>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>>> the test or some such? >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>> >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>>>> you >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>> colleges, >>>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>>> problem >>>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Hi all, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>>> get. >>>>>>> > Do >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>>>> repeat >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>>>> mark >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Ashley >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >>> >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> Sent from my Toaster (tm). >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Mon Apr 29 20:14:50 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:14:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hey Ashley, this is Helga. I just would like to ask you, When you said that you talked to your disability counceler, do you mean disability adviser, or DBS counceler? By the way, do you have your own Braille Printer? I was just wondering. Also, Would it be possible for you to give me your email address again? in order for me to contact you because it will take me a while to look for it in my inbox since I have a lot of email messages. I'll really appreciate it. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi Justin and everyone, Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing a reader state these words. No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against braille was the following: 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam with jaws. 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam now. It was a pr exam btw. So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. She would make the same arguments I believe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > > to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > >> for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >> school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >> exam > >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >> school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>> Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>> taking > >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>> clue > >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking > >>> up material and research, but > >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>> legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>> not > >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>> the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then > >>>> you > >>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, > >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>> But > >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>> problem > >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>> > get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>> > were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > >>>>> repeat > >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> > for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 21:05:31 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:05:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC><517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com><6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC><4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC><57C8D871-67E9-4C85-9A63-B50F1A4257EB@gmail.com><802C23496FF4411EA636480B440ABB31@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <693C2C174F6B43CA9AC4305DAB2455E4@OwnerPC> Its in the test center kirt; I may not be allowed to have a copy of terms in braille or have the professor send over a file of the terms read by her. I will check if its possible; they don't have many policies beyond the typical no cell phone, no belongs with you thing. so I think I'll be fine if the professor agrees. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley, Why, exactly, with the testing center need to agree? It seems to me the testing center would only need to agree if you were taking the test there. If, hypothetically, there was a spare department staff member or something who could be your reader, and your professor was okay with you doing the test in her office, or a study room in the library, or somewhere else… Why would the testing center need to agree to anything? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2013, at 2:00 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Hello, > I love this idea. I'll discuss with the professor. Of course the testing > center would have to agree. > If it doesn't violate a policy, I think this would be great. The professor > could record the foreign word terms into a file and put them on a thumb > drive. Then I just listen term by term to match them. > > Thanks. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 10:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > When I took Italian, and no readers who had taken Italian were available, > I asked my professor to record the questions that would be written in > Italian, and used JAWS for the questions in English. The recording was > saved on a USB thumb drive that my teacher gave directly to the test > proctor in the DSS office, and they gave it to me to listen to on their > computer. This worked really well. I had perfect pronoun citation, the > ability to rewind, fast forward and pause as needed, the DSS office didn't > have to find a reader at all and there were no concerns about security or > cheating. You might try talking to your professor about that. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 7:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > >> Kirt, >> Thanks. I do intend to use that idea of process of elimination. >> If they mispronounce say 2 or 3 of five terms, I'll do what I know and >> then >> look at the rest carefully by having them spell words. If I get a reader >> though with an accent or poor english skills, I might have a hard time >> understanding how they spell; in this case, I'll ask them to spell using >> a word; meaning spell phonetically. Sometimes B and d sound alike in >> which case I'd have to ask which letter they mean. >> >> Thanks for reminding me about using the other definitions. Perhaps I'm >> just too worried. I just want a fair chance to succeed with a decent >> reader and I have no clue what sort of reader I'll get. Some student >> readers are decent. Others mumble and act like they've never read aloud >> in their lives. >> >> Its stressful to work with an untrained reader who may or may not know >> how to pronounce words. but that is what I have to deal with since I >> cannot bring my own readers in. >> >> I'll just do my best with what I have. >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:38 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce >> things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to >> have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from >> there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of >> luck to you! >> >> On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi Tyler, >>> I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their >>> poor >>> reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I >>> cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down >>> and I >>> >>> lean in toward them to hear better. >>> Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the >>> page >>> but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they >>> sort >>> of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the >>> page, >>> >>> but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. >>> I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit >>> across from them is a good one. >>> >>> Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will >>> be >>> >>> perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few >>> examples. >>> For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something >>> with >>> >>> symbols. >>> So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille >>> note or my very old embosser on occasion. >>> Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i >>> go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. >>> I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in >>> electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. >>> >>> Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online >>> version >>> >>> is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the >>> links. >>> So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. >>> >>> So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a >>> sighted world. >>> But when a school is a huge community college and should make the >>> accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also >>> have >>> >>> a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. >>> What >>> >>> a concept! >>> Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this >>> problem >>> since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. >>> Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a >>> long >>> >>> time ago. >>> >>> They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the >>> brailling. >>> They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. >>> >>> Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the >>> professor and hopefully work something out. >>> >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Littlefield, Tyler >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley: >>> I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all >>> ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They >>> talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far >>> out there. >>> >>> First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. >>> its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them >>> to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but >>> try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. >>> Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest >>> finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department >>> x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will >>> be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they >>> mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's >>> generally a glossary. >>> >>> What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make >>> your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as >>> you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, >>> that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't >>> perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, >>> and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to >>> lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain >>> about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll >>> get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and >>> accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to >>> deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books >>> that you need. >>> >>> >>> I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, >>> as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. >>> I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few >>> semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow >>> she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work >>> with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when >>> it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you >>> eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's >>> because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if >>> they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're >>> blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the >>> loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't >>> mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve >>> some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's >>> ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the >>> future. >>> >>> Good luck, >>> On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check >>>> the >>>> >>>> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >>>> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >>>> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >>>> >>>> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but >>>> when >>>> >>>> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to >>>> follow >>>> >>>> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >>>> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >>>> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >>>> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >>>> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >>>> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >>>> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >>>> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >>>> professor to make. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>>> taking >>>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class >>>>> I >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>> Gosh. >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>>> clue >>>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>>> >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>> looking >>>>> up material and research, but >>>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>>> legal >>>>> >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option >>>>> to >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>>> not >>>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>>> the test or some such? >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I >>>>>> had >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person >>>>>> was >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>> >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>>>> you >>>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>> colleges, >>>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with >>>>>>> competent >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>>> problem >>>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Hi all, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>>> get. >>>>>>> > Do >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>>>> repeat >>>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with >>>>>>> jaws >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>>> directly >>>>>>> mark >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>>>>> If >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Ashley >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that >>> >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> Sent from my Toaster (tm). >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 21:05:57 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:05:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <295DD0B1F884436F9A9C734F40F857F9@OwnerPC> Helga, I mean disability counselor who works for the school -----Original Message----- From: Helga Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hey Ashley, this is Helga. I just would like to ask you, When you said that you talked to your disability counceler, do you mean disability adviser, or DBS counceler? By the way, do you have your own Braille Printer? I was just wondering. Also, Would it be possible for you to give me your email address again? in order for me to contact you because it will take me a while to look for it in my inbox since I have a lot of email messages. I'll really appreciate it. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi Justin and everyone, Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing a reader state these words. No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against braille was the following: 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam with jaws. 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam now. It was a pr exam btw. So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. She would make the same arguments I believe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > > to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > >> for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >> school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >> exam > >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >> school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>> Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>> taking > >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>> clue > >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking > >>> up material and research, but > >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>> legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>> not > >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>> the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then > >>>> you > >>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, > >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>> But > >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>> problem > >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>> > get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>> > were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > >>>>> repeat > >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> > for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Mon Apr 29 21:57:45 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:57:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> Ashley, Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of the test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on your display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if any of this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was thinking of. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi Justin and everyone, Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing a reader state these words. No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against braille was the following: 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam with jaws. 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam now. It was a pr exam btw. So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. She would make the same arguments I believe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated > > testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to > > the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is > > around to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you > > might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has > > control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors > > give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, > > or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me > >> arrange for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this > >> violates school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers > >> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they > >> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not > >> cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement > >> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has > >> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the > >> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite > >> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not > >> quite in line with school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>> Ashley Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree > >>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing > >>> certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and > >>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me > >>> to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader > >>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the > >>> option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. > >>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most > >>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced > >>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material > >>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they > >>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing > >>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting > >>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community > >>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your > >>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for > >>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some > >>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they > >>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option > >>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when > >>>> I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the > >>>> person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And > >>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me > >>>>> with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words > >>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't > >>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my > >>>>> next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations > >>>>> > you get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my > >>>>> > readers were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower > >>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly > >>>>> and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took > >>>>> with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> > info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Mon Apr 29 22:20:16 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 18:20:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <295DD0B1F884436F9A9C734F40F857F9@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <295DD0B1F884436F9A9C734F40F857F9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hey!! Ashley, this is Helga. Have you talk to your DBS counceler and your professor in order to perhaps to talk to your Disabbility counceler from school regarding putting your test in Braille because that's probably your prefer way of reading? Also, What's the name of the community college that you are attending now? I'm just curious. By the way, do you live in Florida? I'm just wondering. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 5:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Helga, I mean disability counselor who works for the school -----Original Message----- From: Helga Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hey Ashley, this is Helga. I just would like to ask you, When you said that you talked to your disability counceler, do you mean disability adviser, or DBS counceler? By the way, do you have your own Braille Printer? I was just wondering. Also, Would it be possible for you to give me your email address again? in order for me to contact you because it will take me a while to look for it in my inbox since I have a lot of email messages. I'll really appreciate it. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi Justin and everyone, Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing a reader state these words. No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against braille was the following: 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam with jaws. 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam now. It was a pr exam btw. So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. She would make the same arguments I believe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > > to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > >> for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >> school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >> exam > >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >> school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>> Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>> taking > >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>> clue > >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking > >>> up material and research, but > >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>> legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>> not > >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>> the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then > >>>> you > >>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, > >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>> But > >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>> problem > >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>> > get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>> > were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > >>>>> repeat > >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> > for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 22:22:20 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:22:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> Message-ID: <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> Ashley, It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their test outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class takes it. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" wrote: > Ashley, > Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to be > thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of > problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you may > want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to pay > with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your > tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors about > this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send the > test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you > mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are > you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of the > test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on your > display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these > tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this > could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if any of > this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was > thinking of. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Hi Justin and everyone, > Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing > a reader state these words. > No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille > production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. > They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. > Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled > last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. > She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against > braille was the following: > 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam > with jaws. > 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. > 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary > to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into > braille because you have a means to access the exam now. > > It was a pr exam btw. > So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. > She would make the same arguments I believe. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with > the reader? > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > >> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>> out of their office. >>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>> >>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors > to do. >>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>> arrange for >>>> >>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>> violates school >>>> >>>> policy. >>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>> cheat then? >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their > office. >>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>> certificate. The class >> I >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >> Gosh. >>>>> I >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>> to do this. >>>>> >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>> >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>> option > to >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not > care much. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>> I >> had >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>> person >> was >>>>>> a >>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>> >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>> with > competent >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>> and read fast >> and >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>> with >> jaws >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >> directly >>>>>>> mark >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. > If >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >> . >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 22:16:52 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 18:16:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] 9 Ways to Maximize Your Internship Message-ID: <012201ce4527$40a5eca0$c1f1c5e0$@gmail.com> When you think of an internship, do you think of underappreciated grunts that pass the day knocking out those tasks no one else wants to do? The perception is not completely inaccurate. Answering phones, fetching the mail, making the coffee, and taking dictation are just a few of the tasks we all did to get our foot in the door. It's like a right of professional passage, but an internship opportunity can be rewarding if properly utilized. In no particular order, here are nine things you can do to make the best of your internship opportunity: Read the article: http://joeorozco.com/blog_9_ways_to_maximize_your_internship From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 00:03:35 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:03:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> Message-ID: <115D50235C754843B825F1446527CD6B@OwnerPC> I think I'm done with school and generally, I don't have much issues because my exams are in english. No, I'm not paying for my own accomodations to have it brailled. If the school had a braille display as I've suggested I'd see it in braille. If I foresaw a problem in taking a test with jaws or a reader in the future, I'd insist a long time ahead of time for a braille copy and if the counselor said no, I'd go above her to get what I needed. Most of the times, my test accomodations have been okay; maybe not the best quality readers all the time, but not so bad that we could not work things out. they were patient and reread the questions if needed. Thanks for your suggestions though. -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 5:57 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley, Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of the test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on your display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if any of this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was thinking of. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi Justin and everyone, Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing a reader state these words. No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against braille was the following: 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam with jaws. 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam now. It was a pr exam btw. So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. She would make the same arguments I believe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated > > testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to > > the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is > > around to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you > > might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has > > control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors > > give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, > > or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me > >> arrange for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this > >> violates school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers > >> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they > >> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not > >> cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement > >> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has > >> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the > >> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite > >> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not > >> quite in line with school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > >>> Ashley Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree > >>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing > >>> certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and > >>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me > >>> to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader > >>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the > >>> option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. > >>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most > >>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced > >>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material > >>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they > >>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing > >>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting > >>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community > >>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your > >>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for > >>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some > >>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they > >>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option > >>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when > >>>> I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the > >>>> person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And > >>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me > >>>>> with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words > >>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't > >>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my > >>>>> next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations > >>>>> > you get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my > >>>>> > readers were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower > >>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly > >>>>> and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took > >>>>> with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> > info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 00:05:07 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:05:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> Kirt, okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do you read the exam? -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley, It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their test outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class takes it. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" wrote: > Ashley, > Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to be > thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of > problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you > may > want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to > pay > with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your > tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors about > this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send > the > test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you > mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable > are > you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of > the > test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on > your > display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these > tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this > could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if any > of > this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was > thinking of. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Hi Justin and everyone, > Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of > hearing > a reader state these words. > No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille > production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. > They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. > Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled > last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. > She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against > braille was the following: > 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the > exam > with jaws. > 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. > 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not > necessary > to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into > braille because you have a means to access the exam now. > > It was a pr exam btw. > So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. > She would make the same arguments I believe. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along > with > the reader? > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > >> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>> out of their office. >>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>> >>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors > to do. >>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>> arrange for >>>> >>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>> violates school >>>> >>>> policy. >>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>> cheat then? >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their > office. >>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>> certificate. The class >> I >>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >> Gosh. >>>>> I >>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>> to do this. >>>>> >>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>> >>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>> option > to >>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not > care much. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>> I >> had >>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>> person >> was >>>>>> a >>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>> >>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>> with > competent >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>> and read fast >> and >>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>> with >> jaws >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >> directly >>>>>>> mark >>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. > If >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>> om >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >> . >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 00:04:22 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:04:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><295DD0B1F884436F9A9C734F40F857F9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Helga, its northern virginia community college; I'm there for a certificate in writing. this religion class is an elective. -----Original Message----- From: Helga Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hey!! Ashley, this is Helga. Have you talk to your DBS counceler and your professor in order to perhaps to talk to your Disabbility counceler from school regarding putting your test in Braille because that's probably your prefer way of reading? Also, What's the name of the community college that you are attending now? I'm just curious. By the way, do you live in Florida? I'm just wondering. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 5:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Helga, I mean disability counselor who works for the school -----Original Message----- From: Helga Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 4:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hey Ashley, this is Helga. I just would like to ask you, When you said that you talked to your disability counceler, do you mean disability adviser, or DBS counceler? By the way, do you have your own Braille Printer? I was just wondering. Also, Would it be possible for you to give me your email address again? in order for me to contact you because it will take me a while to look for it in my inbox since I have a lot of email messages. I'll really appreciate it. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi Justin and everyone, Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of hearing a reader state these words. No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against braille was the following: 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the exam with jaws. 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam now. It was a pr exam btw. So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. She would make the same arguments I believe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along with the reader? On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out > the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if > the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their > rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be > willing to work something out with you that's fair. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > > out of their office. > > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > > to ensure you don't cheat. > > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Arielle, > >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > >> for > >> > >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. > >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > >> school > >> > >> policy. > >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the > >> exam > >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >> > >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > >> school policy. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: > >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >>> Bramlett > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> Arielle, > >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but > >>> taking > >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class > I > >>> need a competent reader for is religion. > >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. > Gosh. > >>> I > >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a > >>> clue > >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > >>> > >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and > >>> looking > >>> up material and research, but > >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > >>> legal > >>> > >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its > >>> not > >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > >>> grade using bad readers. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Arielle Silverman > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > >>> > >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're > >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > >>> the test or some such? > >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I > had > >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person > was > >>>> a > >>>> chem major and an A student. > >>>> > >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then > >>>> you > >>>> interview them by having them read to you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between > >>>>> colleges, > >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent > >>>>> and > >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly > >>>>> But > >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same > >>>>> problem > >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi all, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you > >>>>> > get. > >>>>> > Do > >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? > >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a > >>>>> > scantron, > >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers > >>>>> > were > >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and > >>>>> repeat > >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast > and > >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with > jaws > >>>>> to > >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can > directly > >>>>> mark > >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If > >>>>> I > >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Ashley > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> > for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >>> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 01:11:37 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:11:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> <424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated working with disability services and much preferred to work out the testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of using my Braille Note. Arielle On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Kirt, > okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do > you read the exam? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley, > It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test > outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good as > you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? > Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their test > > outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class > takes it. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" > > wrote: > >> Ashley, >> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >> be >> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >> may >> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >> pay >> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors about >> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >> the >> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >> are >> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >> the >> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >> your >> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if any >> >> of >> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >> thinking of. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Hi Justin and everyone, >> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >> hearing >> a reader state these words. >> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. >> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >> brailled >> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against >> braille was the following: >> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >> exam >> with jaws. >> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >> necessary >> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >> >> It was a pr exam btw. >> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. >> She would make the same arguments I believe. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: justin williams >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >> with >> the reader? >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> >>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>> out of their office. >>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>> >>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>> professors >> to do. >>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>> arrange for >>>>> >>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>> violates school >>>>> >>>>> policy. >>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>> cheat then? >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >> office. >>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>> certificate. The class >>> I >>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>> Gosh. >>>>>> I >>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>> to do this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>> >>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>> option >> to >>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >> care much. >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>> I >>> had >>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>> person >>> was >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>> with >> competent >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>> and read fast >>> and >>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>> with >>> jaws >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>> directly >>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >> If >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info >> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>> . >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >> net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kwakmiso at aol.com Tue Apr 30 01:13:10 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Question on a Braille sign in Calculus In-Reply-To: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> References: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> Message-ID: <8D01357034BB7CE-14E8-6716@webmail-m139.sysops.aol.com> Hello, I am currently studying basic calculus as a part of trig/precalc class curriculum. I do not own Nemeth guide in an accessible formant neither I have calculus textbook formally brailled. (The teacher just uses worksheets which are brailled by but I don't think all nemeth code is correctly used) In calculus there is a thing we read as "y prime". How would I write that in Braille? I would appreciate your help. Miso From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 01:32:23 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:32:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> <424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even though this has been said over and over again already, professors are generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she needed to. Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course > a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue > getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a > distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters > to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated > working with disability services and much preferred to work out the > testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have > students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center > because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors > have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their > tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone > else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. > I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between > using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a > text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it > back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, > professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is > to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I > think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of > using my Braille Note. > > Arielle > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Kirt, >> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >> you read the exam? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >> as >> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >> test >> >> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >> takes it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Ashley, >>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>> be >>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>> may >>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>> pay >>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>> about >>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>> the >>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>> are >>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>> the >>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>> your >>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>> any >>> >>> of >>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>> thinking of. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>> hearing >>> a reader state these words. >>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>> this. >>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>> brailled >>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>> against >>> braille was the following: >>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>> exam >>> with jaws. >>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>> necessary >>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>> >>> It was a pr exam btw. >>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>> time. >>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: justin williams >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>> with >>> the reader? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>> out of their office. >>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>> >>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>> professors >>> to do. >>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>> arrange for >>>>>> >>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>> violates school >>>>>> >>>>>> policy. >>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>> office. >>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>> office. >>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>> I >>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>> Gosh. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>> option >>> to >>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>> care much. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>> I >>>> had >>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>> person >>>> was >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>> with >>> competent >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>> and >>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>> with >>>> jaws >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>> directly >>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>> If >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>> . >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>> net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Apr 30 01:35:09 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:35:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> <424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey with graphics in the file or massive word banks. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course > a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue > getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a > distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters > to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated > working with disability services and much preferred to work out the > testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have > students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center > because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors > have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their > tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone > else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. > I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between > using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a > text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it > back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, > professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is > to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I > think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of > using my Braille Note. > > Arielle > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Kirt, >> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >> you read the exam? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good as >> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their test >> >> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >> takes it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >> >> wrote: >> >>> Ashley, >>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>> be >>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>> may >>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>> pay >>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors about >>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>> the >>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>> are >>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>> the >>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>> your >>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if any >>> >>> of >>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>> thinking of. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>> hearing >>> a reader state these words. >>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. >>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>> brailled >>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against >>> braille was the following: >>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>> exam >>> with jaws. >>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>> necessary >>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>> >>> It was a pr exam btw. >>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. >>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: justin williams >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>> with >>> the reader? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>> out of their office. >>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>> >>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>> professors >>> to do. >>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>> arrange for >>>>>> >>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>> violates school >>>>>> >>>>>> policy. >>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>> office. >>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>> I >>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>> Gosh. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>> option >>> to >>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>> care much. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>> I >>>> had >>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>> person >>>> was >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>> with >>> competent >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>> and >>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>> with >>>> jaws >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>> directly >>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>> If >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>> . >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>> net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From emilypennington at fuse.net Tue Apr 30 01:53:51 2013 From: emilypennington at fuse.net (Emily Pennington) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:53:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question on a Braille sign in Calculus In-Reply-To: <8D01357034BB7CE-14E8-6716@webmail-m139.sysops.aol.com> References: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> <8D01357034BB7CE-14E8-6716@webmail-m139.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <84384E2D02434FC2A0B05CEBB82421BE@EmilyDesktopPC> Hi, Miso. I took Calc last year, and y-prime would be written as y followed by a dot 3, I believe. Good luck, Emily ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miso Kwak" To: Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:13 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Question on a Braille sign in Calculus > Hello, I am currently studying basic calculus as a part of trig/precalc > class curriculum. > > I do not own Nemeth guide in an accessible formant neither I have calculus > textbook formally brailled. (The teacher just uses worksheets which are > brailled by but I don't think all nemeth code is correctly used) > In calculus there is a thing we read as "y prime". How would I write that > in Braille? > I would appreciate your help. > Miso > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.net > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 01:58:43 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:58:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Question on a Braille sign in Calculus In-Reply-To: <84384E2D02434FC2A0B05CEBB82421BE@EmilyDesktopPC> References: <000901ce4080$11e27b50$35a771f0$@com> <8D01357034BB7CE-14E8-6716@webmail-m139.sysops.aol.com> <84384E2D02434FC2A0B05CEBB82421BE@EmilyDesktopPC> Message-ID: Yes that's how I would write it. Arielle On 4/29/13, Emily Pennington wrote: > Hi, Miso. > I took Calc last year, and y-prime would be written as y followed by a dot > 3, I believe. > > Good luck, > Emily > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miso Kwak" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:13 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Question on a Braille sign in Calculus > > >> Hello, I am currently studying basic calculus as a part of trig/precalc >> class curriculum. >> >> I do not own Nemeth guide in an accessible formant neither I have calculus >> >> textbook formally brailled. (The teacher just uses worksheets which are >> brailled by but I don't think all nemeth code is correctly used) >> In calculus there is a thing we read as "y prime". How would I write that >> >> in Braille? >> I would appreciate your help. >> Miso >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.net >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kwakmiso at aol.com Tue Apr 30 02:02:32 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:02:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Question on a Braille sign in Calculus Message-ID: I was asking around and another person told me the same thing. Thank you for your reply. Miso From annajee82 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 03:15:32 2013 From: annajee82 at gmail.com (Anna Givens) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:15:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <93B82BC9F6514431964192D62EC7CDCF@OwnerPC> <517CD621.7010707@tysdomain.com> <6E76A03A77694A6CA64A310D496D3C2D@OwnerPC> <4887CA7DE9C1439D8C739A134281A285@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7607379E-80F2-43A1-9D97-B2973E482C9B@gmail.com> Ashley, I agree with what has been said.... It is often better to do testing (among other things) outside of DSS. That has been my experience. Talk to your professor. Anna Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Kirt, > Thanks. I do intend to use that idea of process of elimination. > If they mispronounce say 2 or 3 of five terms, I'll do what I know and then > look at the rest carefully by having them spell words. If I get a reader though with an accent or poor english skills, I might have a hard time understanding how they spell; in this case, I'll ask them to spell using a word; meaning spell phonetically. Sometimes B and d sound alike in which case I'd have to ask which letter they mean. > > Thanks for reminding me about using the other definitions. Perhaps I'm just too worried. I just want a fair chance to succeed with a decent reader and I have no clue what sort of reader I'll get. Some student readers are decent. Others mumble and act like they've never read aloud in their lives. > > Its stressful to work with an untrained reader who may or may not know how to pronounce words. but that is what I have to deal with since I cannot bring my own readers in. > > I'll just do my best with what I have. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley, > I think you'll probably be fine. When I've had readers mispronounce > things in other languages, it's usually been easy enough for me to > have them pronounce the other words in the matching list and, from > there, it hasn't been that hard to figure out what's what. Best of > luck to you! > > On 4/28/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi Tyler, >> I've worked with incompetent readers. I've tried to accommodate their poor >> reading level. Some of them have mumbled to the page or speak fast so I >> cannot differientiate between choice A and B. I ask them to slow down and I >> >> lean in toward them to hear better. >> Actually, its my experience that good readers do not look down at the page >> but rather they sit up straight and their voice projects out and they sort >> of look toward me. Its hard to describe. But their face is not in the page, >> >> but yeah of course they are looking at it to read. >> I think your suggestion of changing seats to sit >> across from them is a good one. >> >> Finally, I think you misunderstand my comments. I never said things will be >> >> perfect and yes I have in fact made my own accomodations. A few examples. >> For instance, I learn better in braille or large print if its something with >> >> symbols. >> So, I use my perkins to braille out key items to study or use my braille >> note or my very old embosser on occasion. >> Sometimes I don't know how to spell proper places and other nouns so i >> go to that word with jaws and read it character by character. >> I've often not had my accomodations met that state I get handouts in >> electronic format. So I take them in paper form and scan them. >> >> Sometimes I have articles to read that are not electronic; no online version >> >> is available. if it is, and the professor is helpful, they send me the >> links. >> So in those instances, I have used readers I hired. >> >> So, of course I do more work and work around studying and living in a >> sighted world. >> But when a school is a huge community college and should make the >> accomodations to test you fairly, I do have a problem. They could also have >> >> a braille display or heaven forbid they actually do in-house brailling. What >> >> a concept! >> Having a braille display and reading it on the pc would solve this problem >> since I'd be reading the words like everyone else. >> Note that I've suggested getting a braille display; even a small one, a long >> >> time ago. >> >> They also lost their Assistive tech guy who could have done the brailling. >> They are supposedly looking for a AT assistant. >> >> Anyway, the best I can do is advocate to the dss office and speak to the >> professor and hopefully work something out. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Littlefield, Tyler >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:56 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley: >> I'm not sure what you mean by compitant. I've had people read from all >> ranges. There are people that read slower, but your two concerns ("They >> talk to the paper" and "'tThey don't know arabic words") are pretty far >> out there. >> >> First, they're going to be looking at the paper that they're reading. >> its physically impossible, unless they were to turn to face you for them >> to be looking straight at you. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but >> try sitting across from them at a table if you must be facing them. >> Second, if they mumble or have issues this is problematic and I suggest >> finding someone else. If you are unable to find a reader from department >> x, know that said reader probably won't know all the words, and it will >> be up to you guys to work things out to try to figure out what they >> mean. If they're reading from the book, flip to the back where there's >> generally a glossary. >> >> What it comes down to is you are blind, and as a result you have to make >> your own accomidations. You can scream and hollar about ADA as much as >> you want, but it doesn't matter. When they outright violate your rights, >> that's when you need to scream about ADA. When your reader isn't >> perfect, it needs to be accepted as one of the points to doing business, >> and you as the student needs to work it out. I'm not saying you need to >> lay down and take everything--I fully agree that you should complain >> about the math issue you mentioned. What I am saying though is you'll >> get a lot farther if you are willing to be flexable and acknowledge and >> accept that this won't be a perfect shot. It's something you have to >> deal with unless you want to find alternative means to getting the books >> that you need. >> >> >> I just want to throw one more thing out there at you. Being in college, >> as lame as it may sound really does get you ready for later work life. >> I've seen numerous complaints about professor x y and z for the last few >> semesters; if you're in a job, you already have to overcome the "wow >> she's blind" factor most of the time. Refusing to be flexable or work >> with people won't do you any good. You might call up the ADA, but when >> it really comes down to it, people can find a good reason to drop you >> eventually if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you it's >> because you're blind and unflexable. People don't have to hire you if >> they don't want to, and they don't have to tell you it's because you're >> blind; they can tell you someone else got the job and hand it to the >> loser who got half your GPA if they really want to. Again, it doesn't >> mean you should take everything, but I feel like you could problem solve >> some of these issues a lot more if you were willing to accept people's >> ideas and get outside the box, and starting now can only help you in the >> future. >> >> Good luck, >> On 4/27/2013 10:18 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I was told I have to use their readers by the dss office. I will check the >>> >>> student handbook and the disability website to check on policies. But I >>> believe that I cannot use my own reader. Believe me, I'd love to have >>> another staff member or another student assist me who can read. >>> >>> My accomodations are between me and the professor to some extent. but when >>> >>> I take a test in the testing center, it is my understand I have to follow >>> >>> their rules. One rule might be I have to use their readers from the dss >>> office. But I will see if such a policy is written down. I'll ask my >>> counselor who tells me this to get me that policy. Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:28 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing >>> accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I >>> prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. >>> A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide >>> students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you >>> can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the >>> professor to make. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>>> taking >>>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>>> >>>> I >>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>>> clue >>>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>>> >>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>> looking >>>> up material and research, but >>>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>> legal >>>> >>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>>> not >>>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>> grade using bad readers. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>>> the test or some such? >>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>> >>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>>> you >>>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>> colleges, >>>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>>> and >>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>>> But >>>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>>> problem >>>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Hi all, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>>> get. >>>>>> > Do >>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>> scantron, >>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>>> were >>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>>> repeat >>>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>>> to >>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>>> mark >>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>>> I >>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Ashley >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> >> dares not reason is a slave. >> Sent from my Toaster (tm). >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/annajee82%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 05:09:27 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:09:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net><57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com><424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <3E749C51B5054D3BA6E8FE931BC4DC36@OwnerPC> Arielle, Thank you for your perspective. I've just always done tests through the disability office since well, it was told as policy and on my memo of accomodation. I've only done quizzes outside the disability office and testing center For these I usually did them orally as they were so short that it took less than five minutes for the professor to ask the questions. When I spoke to the nabs list about my in class quiz, you may remember the short quiz, that I hated to take in the testing center, I lost the battle. The professor would not let me take it in her office or in class. I explained I could do the test in her office after class; keep in mind she had office hours after class and was in her office by default. I had to go to the testing center. It took just as long to walk over there and sign in as it would have taken to take the short quiz. I could certainly ask if I could read the test on my notetaker so I could read the exam and use my reader to write my answers. That sounds good. Although, I like the other suggestion of having the professor send a audio file of the terms to the testing center better. I think that's great you and others took tests in professor's offices. I can see why it would be preferable to using the disability office and policies. I'm surprised you found time though. Professors have definitely helped me out and made appointments to assist me, but at testing time they are very busy grading. Thanks for all the ideas and I'll continue to work with the school. I'll ask my professor about my options which include bringing in a brailled list of the terms on paper, having her read the terms on a digital file and sending them over, and using my braille notetaker or finding a reader who can actually speak the words right. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated working with disability services and much preferred to work out the testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of using my Braille Note. Arielle On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Kirt, > okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do > you read the exam? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley, > It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test > outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good as > you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? > Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their > test > > outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class > takes it. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" > > > wrote: > >> Ashley, >> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >> be >> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >> may >> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >> pay >> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors about >> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >> the >> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >> are >> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >> the >> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >> your >> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if any >> >> of >> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >> thinking of. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Hi Justin and everyone, >> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >> hearing >> a reader state these words. >> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for this. >> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >> brailled >> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument against >> braille was the following: >> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >> exam >> with jaws. >> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >> necessary >> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >> >> It was a pr exam btw. >> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough time. >> She would make the same arguments I believe. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: justin williams >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >> Germano >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >> with >> the reader? >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> >>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>> out of their office. >>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>> >>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>> professors >> to do. >>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>> arrange for >>>>> >>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>> violates school >>>>> >>>>> policy. >>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>> cheat then? >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >> office. >>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>> certificate. The class >>> I >>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>> Gosh. >>>>>> I >>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>> to do this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>> >>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>> option >> to >>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >> care much. >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>> I >>> had >>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>> person >>> was >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>> with >> competent >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>> and read fast >>> and >>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>> with >>> jaws >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>> directly >>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >> If >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>> om >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info >> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>> . >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >> net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 05:15:38 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:15:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net><57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com><424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> Hello Kirt, Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm in. What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center. She told me to request a scribe and reader I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center, but implied that was the way it was done for exams. I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in case we run into problems, she can jump in. Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is the only full time professor in that department. I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley, I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even though this has been said over and over again already, professors are generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she needed to. Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course > a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue > getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a > distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters > to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated > working with disability services and much preferred to work out the > testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have > students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center > because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors > have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their > tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone > else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. > I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between > using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a > text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it > back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, > professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is > to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I > think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of > using my Braille Note. > > Arielle > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Kirt, >> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >> you read the exam? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >> as >> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >> test >> >> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >> takes it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Ashley, >>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>> be >>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>> may >>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>> pay >>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>> about >>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>> the >>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>> are >>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>> the >>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>> your >>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>> any >>> >>> of >>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>> thinking of. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>> hearing >>> a reader state these words. >>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>> this. >>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>> brailled >>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>> against >>> braille was the following: >>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>> exam >>> with jaws. >>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>> necessary >>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>> >>> It was a pr exam btw. >>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>> time. >>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: justin williams >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>> with >>> the reader? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>> out of their office. >>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>> >>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>> professors >>> to do. >>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>> arrange for >>>>>> >>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>> violates school >>>>>> >>>>>> policy. >>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>> office. >>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>> office. >>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>> I >>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>> Gosh. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>> option >>> to >>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>> care much. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>> I >>>> had >>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>> person >>>> was >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>> with >>> competent >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>> and >>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>> with >>>> jaws >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>> directly >>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>> If >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>> . >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>> net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 05:16:29 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:16:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net><57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com><424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <24E3123ECBAC43089C88DEBC33ACDF81@OwnerPC> Lilly, I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook a monitor to the notetaker? -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey with graphics in the file or massive word banks. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course > a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue > getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a > distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters > to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated > working with disability services and much preferred to work out the > testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have > students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center > because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors > have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their > tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone > else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. > I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between > using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a > text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it > back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, > professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is > to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I > think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of > using my Braille Note. > > Arielle > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Kirt, >> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >> you read the exam? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >> as >> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >> test >> >> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >> takes it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Ashley, >>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>> be >>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>> may >>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>> pay >>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>> about >>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>> the >>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>> are >>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>> the >>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>> your >>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>> any >>> >>> of >>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>> thinking of. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>> hearing >>> a reader state these words. >>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>> this. >>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>> brailled >>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>> against >>> braille was the following: >>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>> exam >>> with jaws. >>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>> necessary >>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>> >>> It was a pr exam btw. >>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>> time. >>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: justin williams >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>> with >>> the reader? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>> out of their office. >>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>> >>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>> professors >>> to do. >>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>> arrange for >>>>>> >>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>> violates school >>>>>> >>>>>> policy. >>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>> office. >>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>> office. >>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>> I >>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>> Gosh. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>> option >>> to >>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>> care much. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>> I >>>> had >>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>> person >>>> was >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>> with >>> competent >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>> and >>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>> with >>>> jaws >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>> directly >>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>> If >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>> . >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>> net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 05:23:00 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:23:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> References: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> Message-ID: One more thing. I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing it in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker, this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. She would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me. I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to the testing center to pick my final up. That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear professors work with you all directly for these situations. Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center except for small quizzes. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hello Kirt, Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm in. What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center. She told me to request a scribe and reader I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center, but implied that was the way it was done for exams. I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in case we run into problems, she can jump in. Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is the only full time professor in that department. I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Ashley, I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even though this has been said over and over again already, professors are generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she needed to. Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course > a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue > getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a > distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters > to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated > working with disability services and much preferred to work out the > testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have > students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center > because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors > have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their > tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone > else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. > I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between > using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a > text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it > back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, > professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is > to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I > think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of > using my Braille Note. > > Arielle > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Kirt, >> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >> you read the exam? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >> as >> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >> test >> >> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >> takes it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Ashley, >>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>> be >>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>> may >>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>> pay >>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>> about >>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>> the >>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>> are >>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>> the >>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>> your >>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>> any >>> >>> of >>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>> thinking of. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>> hearing >>> a reader state these words. >>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>> this. >>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>> brailled >>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>> against >>> braille was the following: >>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>> exam >>> with jaws. >>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>> necessary >>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>> >>> It was a pr exam btw. >>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>> time. >>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: justin williams >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>> with >>> the reader? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>> out of their office. >>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>> >>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>> professors >>> to do. >>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>> arrange for >>>>>> >>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>> violates school >>>>>> >>>>>> policy. >>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>> office. >>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>> office. >>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>> I >>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>> Gosh. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>> option >>> to >>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>> care much. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>> I >>>> had >>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>> person >>>> was >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>> with >>> competent >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>> and >>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>> with >>>> jaws >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>> directly >>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>> If >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>> . >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>> net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 05:31:55 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 23:31:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> Message-ID: In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor. Some have offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other students'. Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester. Usually, though not always, this has worked well for me. On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > One more thing. > I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing it > in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker, > this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. She > would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me. > I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to > the testing center to pick my final up. > > That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear > professors work with you all directly for these situations. > Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center > except for small quizzes. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Hello Kirt, > Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm in. > What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center. > She told me to request a scribe and reader > I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could > meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned > that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. > I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to > think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center, > but implied that was the way it was done for exams. > > I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in > case we run into problems, she can jump in. > Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is the > only full time professor in that department. > > I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley, > I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or > snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope > you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of > expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. > Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have > already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even > though this has been said over and over again already, professors are > generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been > my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department > has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments > without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff > on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very > helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could > maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS > and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that > you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her > office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That > way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation > issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she > needed to. > Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say > something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd > prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." > Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as > readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; > also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone > who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. > > On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >> using my Braille Note. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >>> you read the exam? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley, >>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >>> as >>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >>> test >>> >>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >>> takes it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>>> be >>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>>> may >>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>>> pay >>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>>> about >>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>>> the >>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>>> are >>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>>> the >>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>>> your >>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>>> any >>>> >>>> of >>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>>> thinking of. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>> Bramlett >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>> hearing >>>> a reader state these words. >>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>> this. >>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>> brailled >>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>> against >>>> braille was the following: >>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>>> exam >>>> with jaws. >>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>> necessary >>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>>> >>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>> time. >>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: justin williams >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>> Germano >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>>> with >>>> the reader? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>>> out of their office. >>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>> >>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>>> professors >>>> to do. >>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>> >>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>> office. >>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>>> office. >>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>> option >>>> to >>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>>> care much. >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>>> I >>>>> had >>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>> was >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>>> with >>>> competent >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>> If >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>>> . >>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 30 06:12:14 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:12:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I'm sorry for asking this dumb question. What do you mean when you say use a TA as a test reader? I'm just curious what the word TA mean? I actually never heard of the word abrebiation. Also, I just would like to ask you, Do you know where can I get a Dux Bury program and a Braille printer that is compatibel with the BrailleNote apex for a cheap price? The Reason I'm asking is because I like to read Braille because is my prefer way of reading especially when I'm reading stories that are hard to understand the wording. I'm actually doing an English major where I need to take Literature classes that involve a lot of reading. Actually, this semester I took American Literature before 1865, and it was very challenging for me because the only accessable format of the Book that DSS provided me was PDF format, and and I got a audio cd from Learning Ally. It was helpful, but not enough to understand the stories since my first Language is not English, even though I speak it, I'm still working on my comprehension of words. I also talked to my DBS counceler about this and she told me that she would not buy me the Braille printer because is very expensive. I really Think a Braille paper copy of a reading will really help me a lot since I'm thinking in taking American Literature after 1865 in the Fall semester. Thanks for listening to me. I really appreciate it. God bless! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:31 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor. Some have offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other students'. Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester. Usually, though not always, this has worked well for me. On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > One more thing. > I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing > it > in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker, > this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. > She > would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me. > I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to > the testing center to pick my final up. > > That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear > professors work with you all directly for these situations. > Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center > except for small quizzes. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Hello Kirt, > Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm > in. > What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center. > She told me to request a scribe and reader > I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could > meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned > that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. > I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to > think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center, > but implied that was the way it was done for exams. > > I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in > case we run into problems, she can jump in. > Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is the > only full time professor in that department. > > I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Ashley, > I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or > snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope > you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of > expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. > Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have > already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even > though this has been said over and over again already, professors are > generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been > my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department > has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments > without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff > on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very > helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could > maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS > and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that > you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her > office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That > way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation > issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she > needed to. > Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say > something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd > prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." > Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as > readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; > also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone > who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. > > On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >> using my Braille Note. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how >>> do >>> you read the exam? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley, >>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >>> as >>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >>> test >>> >>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >>> class >>> takes it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>>> be >>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>>> may >>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>>> pay >>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting >>>> your >>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>>> about >>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>>> the >>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How >>>> comfortable >>>> are >>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy >>>> of >>>> the >>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>>> your >>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For >>>> these >>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>>> any >>>> >>>> of >>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>>> was >>>> thinking of. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>> Bramlett >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>> hearing >>>> a reader state these words. >>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy >>>> left. >>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>> this. >>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>> brailled >>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>> against >>>> braille was the following: >>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>>> exam >>>> with jaws. >>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>> necessary >>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate >>>> into >>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>>> >>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>> time. >>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: justin williams >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>> Germano >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>>> with >>>> the reader? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>>> out of their office. >>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>> >>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>>> professors >>>> to do. >>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>> >>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>> office. >>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>>> office. >>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>> option >>>> to >>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>>> care much. >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>>> I >>>>> had >>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>> was >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>>> with >>>> competent >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I >>>>>>>>>> missed. >>>> If >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another >>>>>>>>>>> message. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>>> . >>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 06:35:15 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 00:35:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <691A4ACA-0E87-4A61-872F-0EC8ED2E7310@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I'm sorry for asking this dumb question. What do you mean when you say use a TA as a test reader? I'm just curious what the word TA mean? I actually never heard of the word abrebiation. Also, I just would like to ask you, Do you know where can I get a Dux Bury program and a Braille printer that is compatibel with the BrailleNote apex for a cheap price? The Reason I'm asking is because I like to read Braille because is my prefer way of reading especially when I'm reading stories that are hard to understand the wording. I'm actually doing an English major where I need to take Literature classes that involve a lot of reading. Actually, this semester I took American Literature before 1865, and it was very challenging for me because the only accessable format of the Book that DSS provided me was PDF format, and and I got a audio cd from Learning Ally. It was helpful, but not enough to understand the stories since my first Language is not English, even though I speak it, I'm still working on my comprehension of words. I also talked to my DBS counceler about this and she told me that she would not buy me the Braille printer because is very expensive. I really Think a Braille paper copy of a reading will really help me a lot since I'm thinking in taking American Literature after 1865 in the Fall semester. Thanks for listening to me. I really appreciate it. God bless! :) > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:31 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor. Some have > offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I > use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some > have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's > often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other > students'. Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've > always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically > could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester. Usually, > though not always, this has worked well for me. > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> One more thing. >> I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing it >> in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker, >> this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. She >> would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me. >> I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to >> the testing center to pick my final up. >> >> That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear >> professors work with you all directly for these situations. >> Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center >> except for small quizzes. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ashley Bramlett >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Hello Kirt, >> Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm in. >> What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center. >> She told me to request a scribe and reader >> I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could >> meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned >> that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. >> I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to >> think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center, >> but implied that was the way it was done for exams. >> >> I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in >> case we run into problems, she can jump in. >> Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is the >> only full time professor in that department. >> >> I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or >> snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope >> you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of >> expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. >> Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have >> already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even >> though this has been said over and over again already, professors are >> generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been >> my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department >> has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments >> without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff >> on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very >> helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could >> maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS >> and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that >> you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her >> office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That >> way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation >> issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she >> needed to. >> Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say >> something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd >> prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." >> Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as >> readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; >> also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone >> who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. >> >> On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >>> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >>> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >>> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >>> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >>> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >>> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >>> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >>> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >>> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >>> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >>> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >>> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >>> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >>> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >>> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >>> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >>> using my Braille Note. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >>>> you read the exam? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kirt >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >>>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >>>> as >>>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >>>> test >>>> >>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >>>> takes it. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>>>> be >>>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>>>> may >>>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>>>> pay >>>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>>>> about >>>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>>>> the >>>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>>>> are >>>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>>>> the >>>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>>>> your >>>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>>>> any >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>>>> thinking of. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>> Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>>> hearing >>>>> a reader state these words. >>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>>> this. >>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>>> brailled >>>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>>> against >>>>> braille was the following: >>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>>>> exam >>>>> with jaws. >>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>>> necessary >>>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>>>> >>>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>>> time. >>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: justin williams >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>> Germano >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>>>> with >>>>> the reader? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>>>> out of their office. >>>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>>>> professors >>>>> to do. >>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>>> office. >>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>>>> office. >>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>>> option >>>>> to >>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>>>> care much. >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> competent >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com Do you have a case through vocational rehab? If you have a rehab counselor, you should be able to make a case for that if you really need it… But they are incredibly expensive. My suggestion, if you like reading things in braille, is to use one of the popular notetakers, like a braille note or braille sense, because then you can read electronic files in braille without all the extra headache of putting it on paper. From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 30 06:52:39 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:52:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <691A4ACA-0E87-4A61-872F-0EC8ED2E7310@gmail.com> References: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> <691A4ACA-0E87-4A61-872F-0EC8ED2E7310@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I cant't read what you send me as a reply with JAWS. For some reason JAWS is not reading your message. Only says send from my Iphone. Probably you send me a picture of the message instead. Hope you get this. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:35 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I'm sorry for asking this dumb question. What do > you mean when you say use a TA as a test reader? I'm just curious what the > word TA mean? I actually never heard of the word abrebiation. Also, I just > would like to ask you, Do you know where can I get a Dux Bury program and > a Braille printer that is compatibel with the BrailleNote apex for a cheap > price? The Reason I'm asking is because I like to read Braille because is > my prefer way of reading especially when I'm reading stories that are hard > to understand the wording. I'm actually doing an English major where I > need to take Literature classes that involve a lot of reading. Actually, > this semester I took American Literature before 1865, and it was very > challenging for me because the only accessable format of the Book that > DSS provided me was PDF format, and and I got a audio cd from Learning > Ally. It was helpful, but not enough to understand the stories since my > first Language is not English, even though I speak it, I'm still working > on my comprehension of words. I also talked to my DBS counceler about this > and she told me that she would not buy me the Braille printer because is > very expensive. I really Think a Braille paper copy of a reading will > really help me a lot since I'm thinking in taking American Literature > after 1865 in the Fall semester. Thanks for listening to me. I really > appreciate it. God bless! :) > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:31 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor. Some have > offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I > use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some > have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's > often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other > students'. Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've > always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically > could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester. Usually, > though not always, this has worked well for me. > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> One more thing. >> I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing >> it >> in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker, >> this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. >> She >> would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me. >> I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to >> the testing center to pick my final up. >> >> That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear >> professors work with you all directly for these situations. >> Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center >> except for small quizzes. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ashley Bramlett >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Hello Kirt, >> Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm >> in. >> What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center. >> She told me to request a scribe and reader >> I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could >> meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned >> that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. >> I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to >> think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center, >> but implied that was the way it was done for exams. >> >> I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in >> case we run into problems, she can jump in. >> Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is >> the >> only full time professor in that department. >> >> I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or >> snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope >> you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of >> expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. >> Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have >> already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even >> though this has been said over and over again already, professors are >> generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been >> my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department >> has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments >> without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff >> on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very >> helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could >> maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS >> and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that >> you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her >> office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That >> way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation >> issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she >> needed to. >> Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say >> something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd >> prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." >> Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as >> readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; >> also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone >> who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. >> >> On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >>> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >>> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >>> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >>> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >>> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >>> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >>> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >>> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >>> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >>> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >>> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >>> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >>> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >>> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >>> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >>> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >>> using my Braille Note. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how >>>> do >>>> you read the exam? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kirt >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >>>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >>>> as >>>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >>>> test >>>> >>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >>>> class >>>> takes it. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want >>>>> to >>>>> be >>>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types >>>>> of >>>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where >>>>> you >>>>> may >>>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing >>>>> to >>>>> pay >>>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting >>>>> your >>>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>>>> about >>>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow >>>>> send >>>>> the >>>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How >>>>> comfortable >>>>> are >>>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy >>>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>>>> your >>>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For >>>>> these >>>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, >>>>> this >>>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>>>> any >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>>>> was >>>>> thinking of. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>> Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>>> hearing >>>>> a reader state these words. >>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy >>>>> left. >>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>>> this. >>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>>> brailled >>>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>>> against >>>>> braille was the following: >>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>>>> exam >>>>> with jaws. >>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>>> necessary >>>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate >>>>> into >>>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>>>> >>>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>>> time. >>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: justin williams >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>> Germano >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >>>>> along >>>>> with >>>>> the reader? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >>>>>> their >>>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>>>> out of their office. >>>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>>>> professors >>>>> to do. >>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>>> office. >>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in >>>>>>>> their >>>>> office. >>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>>> option >>>>> to >>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might >>>>>>>>> not >>>>> care much. >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> competent >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I >>>>>>>>>>> missed. >>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another >>>>>>>>>>>> message. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > Do you have a case through vocational rehab? If you have a rehab > counselor, you should be able to make a case for that if you really need > it… But they are incredibly expensive. My suggestion, if you like reading > things in braille, is to use one of the popular notetakers, like a braille > note or braille sense, because then you can read electronic files in > braille without all the extra headache of putting it on paper. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 06:54:43 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 00:54:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC> <691A4ACA-0E87-4A61-872F-0EC8ED2E7310@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh, nope. What happened was I accidentally changed my iPhone cursor so it wrote everything at the very bottom of the thread… I will give you a proper reply off list tomorrow. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:52 AM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I cant't read what you send me as a reply with JAWS. For some reason JAWS is not reading your message. Only says send from my Iphone. Probably you send me a picture of the message instead. Hope you get this. Thanks and God bless!! :) > > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:35 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > >> Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I'm sorry for asking this dumb question. What do you mean when you say use a TA as a test reader? I'm just curious what the word TA mean? I actually never heard of the word abrebiation. Also, I just would like to ask you, Do you know where can I get a Dux Bury program and a Braille printer that is compatibel with the BrailleNote apex for a cheap price? The Reason I'm asking is because I like to read Braille because is my prefer way of reading especially when I'm reading stories that are hard to understand the wording. I'm actually doing an English major where I need to take Literature classes that involve a lot of reading. Actually, this semester I took American Literature before 1865, and it was very challenging for me because the only accessable format of the Book that DSS provided me was PDF format, and and I got a audio cd from Learning Ally. It was helpful, but not enough to understand the stories since my first Language is not English, even though I speak it, I'm still working on my comprehension of words. I also talked to my DBS counceler about this and she told me that she would not buy me the Braille printer because is very expensive. I really Think a Braille paper copy of a reading will really help me a lot since I'm thinking in taking American Literature after 1865 in the Fall semester. Thanks for listening to me. I really appreciate it. God bless! :) >> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:31 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor. Some have >> offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I >> use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some >> have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's >> often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other >> students'. Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've >> always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically >> could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester. Usually, >> though not always, this has worked well for me. >> >> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> One more thing. >>> I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing it >>> in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker, >>> this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. She >>> would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me. >>> I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to >>> the testing center to pick my final up. >>> >>> That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear >>> professors work with you all directly for these situations. >>> Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center >>> except for small quizzes. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ashley Bramlett >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hello Kirt, >>> Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm in. >>> What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center. >>> She told me to request a scribe and reader >>> I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could >>> meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned >>> that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. >>> I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to >>> think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center, >>> but implied that was the way it was done for exams. >>> >>> I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in >>> case we run into problems, she can jump in. >>> Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is the >>> only full time professor in that department. >>> >>> I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley, >>> I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or >>> snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope >>> you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of >>> expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. >>> Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have >>> already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even >>> though this has been said over and over again already, professors are >>> generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been >>> my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department >>> has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments >>> without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff >>> on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very >>> helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could >>> maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS >>> and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that >>> you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her >>> office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That >>> way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation >>> issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she >>> needed to. >>> Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say >>> something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd >>> prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." >>> Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as >>> readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; >>> also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone >>> who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. >>> >>> On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >>>> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >>>> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >>>> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >>>> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >>>> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >>>> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >>>> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >>>> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >>>> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >>>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >>>> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >>>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >>>> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >>>> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >>>> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >>>> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >>>> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >>>> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >>>> using my Braille Note. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do >>>>> you read the exam? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kirt >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test >>>>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good >>>>> as >>>>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >>>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >>>>> test >>>>> >>>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class >>>>> takes it. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ashley, >>>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to >>>>>> be >>>>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of >>>>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you >>>>>> may >>>>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to >>>>>> pay >>>>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your >>>>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>>>>> about >>>>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send >>>>>> the >>>>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>>>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable >>>>>> are >>>>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>>>>> the >>>>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on >>>>>> your >>>>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these >>>>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>>>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>>>>> any >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was >>>>>> thinking of. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>>> Bramlett >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>>>> hearing >>>>>> a reader state these words. >>>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille >>>>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>>>> this. >>>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>>>> brailled >>>>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>>>> against >>>>>> braille was the following: >>>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the >>>>>> exam >>>>>> with jaws. >>>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>>>> necessary >>>>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into >>>>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>>>>> >>>>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>>>> time. >>>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: justin williams >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>>> Germano >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along >>>>>> with >>>>>> the reader? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if >>>>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their >>>>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>>>>> out of their office. >>>>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their >>>>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will >>>>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're >>>>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>>>>> professors >>>>>> to do. >>>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers >>>>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>>>> office. >>>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >>>>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their >>>>>> office. >>>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>>>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>>>> option >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your >>>>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not >>>>>> care much. >>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>> competent >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower >>>>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>> net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com Do you have a case through vocational rehab? If you have a rehab counselor, you should be able to make a case for that if you really need it… But they are incredibly expensive. My suggestion, if you like reading things in braille, is to use one of the popular notetakers, like a braille note or braille sense, because then you can read electronic files in braille without all the extra headache of putting it on paper. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Tue Apr 30 07:00:43 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 03:00:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <25A4EA52DABB40BBA95F8281B62A50CC@OwnerPC><691A4ACA-0E87-4A61-872F-0EC8ED2E7310@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh, ok Thanks Kirt. God Bless! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Oh, nope. What happened was I accidentally changed my iPhone cursor so it wrote everything at the very bottom of the thread… I will give you a proper reply off list tomorrow. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:52 AM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I cant't read > what you send me as a reply with JAWS. For some reason JAWS is not reading > your message. Only says send from my Iphone. Probably you send me a > picture of the message instead. Hope you get this. Thanks and God bless!! > :) > > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:35 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Helga Schreiber > wrote: > >> Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I'm sorry for asking this dumb question. What >> do you mean when you say use a TA as a test reader? I'm just curious what >> the word TA mean? I actually never heard of the word abrebiation. Also, I >> just would like to ask you, Do you know where can I get a Dux Bury >> program and a Braille printer that is compatibel with the BrailleNote >> apex for a cheap price? The Reason I'm asking is because I like to read >> Braille because is my prefer way of reading especially when I'm reading >> stories that are hard to understand the wording. I'm actually doing an >> English major where I need to take Literature classes that involve a lot >> of reading. Actually, this semester I took American Literature before >> 1865, and it was very challenging for me because the only accessable >> format of the Book that DSS provided me was PDF format, and and I got a >> audio cd from Learning Ally. It was helpful, but not enough to understand >> the stories since my first Language is not English, even though I speak >> it, I'm still working on my comprehension of words. I also talked to my >> DBS counceler about this and she told me that she would not buy me the >> Braille printer because is very expensive. I really Think a Braille paper >> copy of a reading will really help me a lot since I'm thinking in taking >> American Literature after 1865 in the Fall semester. Thanks for listening >> to me. I really appreciate it. God bless! :) >> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:31 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor. Some have >> offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I >> use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some >> have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's >> often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other >> students'. Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've >> always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically >> could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester. Usually, >> though not always, this has worked well for me. >> >> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> One more thing. >>> I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing >>> it >>> in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker, >>> this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. >>> She >>> would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me. >>> I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go >>> to >>> the testing center to pick my final up. >>> >>> That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear >>> professors work with you all directly for these situations. >>> Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center >>> except for small quizzes. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ashley Bramlett >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hello Kirt, >>> Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm >>> in. >>> What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing >>> center. >>> She told me to request a scribe and reader >>> I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who >>> could >>> meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now >>> concerned >>> that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade. >>> I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come >>> to >>> think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing >>> center, >>> but implied that was the way it was done for exams. >>> >>> I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in >>> case we run into problems, she can jump in. >>> Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is >>> the >>> only full time professor in that department. >>> >>> I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley, >>> I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or >>> snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing. That being said, I hope >>> you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of >>> expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it. >>> Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have >>> already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times. Even >>> though this has been said over and over again already, professors are >>> generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been >>> my experience, thus far. You could see if this professors' department >>> has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments >>> without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff >>> on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very >>> helpful, especially if your professor is asking them. Also, you could >>> maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS >>> and doing it all with your professor directly. What I mean is that >>> you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her >>> office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS. That >>> way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation >>> issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she >>> needed to. >>> Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say >>> something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd >>> prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better." >>> Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as >>> readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests; >>> also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone >>> who could help. You'll never know if you don't ask. >>> >>> On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >>>> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >>>> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >>>> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >>>> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >>>> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >>>> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >>>> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >>>> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >>>> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >>>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >>>> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >>>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >>>> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >>>> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >>>> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >>>> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >>>> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >>>> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >>>> using my Braille Note. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how >>>>> do >>>>> you read the exam? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kirt >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the >>>>> test >>>>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as >>>>> good >>>>> as >>>>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least? >>>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their >>>>> test >>>>> >>>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >>>>> class >>>>> takes it. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ashley, >>>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want >>>>>> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types >>>>>> of >>>>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where >>>>>> you >>>>>> may >>>>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing >>>>>> to >>>>>> pay >>>>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting >>>>>> your >>>>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors >>>>>> about >>>>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow >>>>>> send >>>>>> the >>>>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>>>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How >>>>>> comfortable >>>>>> are >>>>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there >>>>>> on >>>>>> your >>>>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For >>>>>> these >>>>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, >>>>>> this >>>>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if >>>>>> any >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>>>>> was >>>>>> thinking of. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>>> Bramlett >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>>>> hearing >>>>>> a reader state these words. >>>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the >>>>>> braille >>>>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy >>>>>> left. >>>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>>>> this. >>>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>>>> brailled >>>>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with. >>>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>>>> against >>>>>> braille was the following: >>>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read >>>>>> the >>>>>> exam >>>>>> with jaws. >>>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>>>> necessary >>>>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate >>>>>> into >>>>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now. >>>>>> >>>>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>>>> time. >>>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: justin williams >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>>> Germano >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >>>>>> along >>>>>> with >>>>>> the reader? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be >>>>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to >>>>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step >>>>>>>> out of their office. >>>>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated >>>>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to >>>>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is >>>>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you >>>>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >>>>>>>> they're >>>>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has >>>>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors >>>>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as >>>>>>>> professors >>>>>> to do. >>>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they >>>>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not >>>>>>>>> cheat then? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>>>> office. >>>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >>>>>>>>> hired >>>>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement >>>>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has >>>>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>> office. >>>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not >>>>>>>>> quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own >>>>>>>>>> readers. >>>>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader >>>>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>>>> option >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community >>>>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe >>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some >>>>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they >>>>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option >>>>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>> care much. >>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And >>>>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided >>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>> competent >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't >>>>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my >>>>>>>>>>>> next college. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >>>>>>>>>>>> slower >>>>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly >>>>>>>>>>>> and read fast >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I >>>>>>>>>>>> missed. >>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another >>>>>>>>>>>>> message. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>>>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>> net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> Do you have a case through vocational rehab? If you have a rehab >> counselor, you should be able to make a case for that if you really need >> it… But they are incredibly expensive. My suggestion, if you like reading >> things in braille, is to use one of the popular notetakers, like a >> braille note or braille sense, because then you can read electronic files >> in braille without all the extra headache of putting it on paper. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 12:03:39 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:03:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <61446F11D96F4978BA6043A5D5E67578@HP30910210001> I agree with arielle. I have used my own readers and I have also used the TAs. I have also taken a thumb drive to the professor. He put the test on there and I sat in class and took it or in their office. I have also had a classmate who finished early read and scribe for me. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Again, who is "they"? Brining your own reader is a valid testing accommodation that blind students have used. I haven't because I prefer to use JAWS, but several of my blind friends have done this. A disabilities office can choose what accommodations to provide students, but they cannot tell you which available accommodations you can use and which you can't. That decision is between you and the professor to make. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but taking > classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I > need a competent reader for is religion. > No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. > you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. I > can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a clue > how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. > > I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and looking > up material and research, but > no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a > legal > > matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to > bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not > fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower > grade using bad readers. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can > read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching > assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the > department and should know the material well, and since they're > trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you > cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and > would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching > assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read > it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before > the test or some such? > I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, > which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability > services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire > and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least > worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was a >> chem major and an A student. >> >> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then you >> interview them by having them read to you. >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>> colleges, >>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>> and >>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>> problem >>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>> > Do >>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>> > >>> > I’m going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers were >>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>> repeat >>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>> to >>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>> mark >>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>> > >>> > I’ll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>> > >>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 12:07:37 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:07:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <75966C862038450BB8F2CDF83B5F5ACE@HP30910210001> I have had professors say, I don't feel comfortable doing it this way or that. then they say however, can you come into my office with your reader and take the test in the conference room. I always talk with my professors during my classes and I also have suggestions thaconcerning testing. at the community college I took a math test at the what they call the testing center. It didn't work so the professor gave the tests to me herself. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step out of their office. I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other accommodations, that's their decision to make. Arielle On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange > for > > a private reader I hire to take the exam. > Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates > school > > policy. > Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for > exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the exam > and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. > If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired > yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you > worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if > you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. > Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor > has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about > things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with > school policy. > > Arielle > > On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Arielle, >> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >> taking >> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >> need a competent reader for is religion. >> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >> I >> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >> clue >> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >> >> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >> looking >> up material and research, but >> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >> legal >> >> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its not >> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >> grade using bad readers. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >> department and should know the material well, and since they're >> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >> the test or some such? >> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>> a >>> chem major and an A student. >>> >>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>> you >>> interview them by having them read to you. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>> colleges, >>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>> and >>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly But >>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>> problem >>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi all, >>>> > >>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you get. >>>> > Do >>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a scantron, >>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>> > >>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>> > were >>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>> repeat >>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>> to >>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>> mark >>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If I >>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>> > >>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>> > >>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>> > >>>> > Ashley >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >> om >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 12:08:58 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:08:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <009F205864C64A829BC5379E445C9CAE@HP30910210001> that is really good advice. My favorite saying is I no where DSS is if and when I need them. work it out with the professor and if you can't then go to your second option the DsS. Blessings, Sincerely, Melissa and Pj Find me on: Twitter melissa5674 facebook Melissa R Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be willing to work something out with you that's fair. Arielle On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to > use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step > out of their office. > I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their > private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated testing > room in the building where the class is, or you could go to the > professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is around > to ensure you don't cheat. > If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who > works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I > don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my > university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will > help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you might > end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. > > Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're > not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has control > over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors give their > entire classes online exams. That's their right as professors to do. > If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, or > to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other > accommodations, that's their decision to make. > > Arielle > > On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me arrange >> for >> >> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this violates >> school >> >> policy. >> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers for >> exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they take the >> exam >> and how does the professor ensure that you did not cheat then? >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their office. >> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired >> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement you >> worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has authority if >> you give it to them by asking to take the test in their office. >> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the professor >> has an objection to it. Many professors are quite laid-back about >> things like that, even if they are technically not quite in line with >> school policy. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Arielle, >>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree but >>> taking >>> classes to further my studies and get a writing certificate. The class I >>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. Gosh. >>> I >>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and have a >>> clue >>> how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me to do this. >>> >>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and >>> looking >>> up material and research, but >>> no I cannot bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>> legal >>> >>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the option to >>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. Its >>> not >>> fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>> grade using bad readers. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most teaching >>> assistants are graduate students or advanced undergraduates in the >>> department and should know the material well, and since they're >>> trusted employees of the professor, they are trusted not to help you >>> cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and >>> would otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no teaching >>> assistant, as in a community college, maybe the professor could read >>> it for you and scribe your answers during office hours the day before >>> the test or some such? >>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for testing, >>> which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some disability >>> services offices frown on this practice because they prefer to hire >>> and manage readers themselves, but it's an option that's at least >>> worth discussing with your professor, who might not care much. >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when I had >>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the person was >>>> a >>>> chem major and an A student. >>>> >>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And then >>>> you >>>> interview them by having them read to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between >>>>> colleges, >>>>> but the college I am leaving almost always provided me with competent >>>>> and >>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words incorrectly >>>>> But >>>>> they knew how to read out loud. I hope I don't run into the same >>>>> problem >>>>> you are dealing with right now and my next college. >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi all, >>>>> > >>>>> > As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations you >>>>> > get. >>>>> > Do >>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>> > If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>> > scantron, >>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>> > >>>>> > I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my readers >>>>> > were >>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower and >>>>> repeat >>>>> things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly and read fast and >>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took with jaws >>>>> to >>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can directly >>>>> mark >>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. If >>>>> I >>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>> > >>>>> > I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>> > >>>>> > Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>> > >>>>> > Ashley >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> > for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.c >>> om >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 20:22:47 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:22:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Office Message-ID: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> Hi all, I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for college students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted price, and if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs user, is there one version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what I need to. Thanks in advance From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Apr 30 20:23:44 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:23:44 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Office In-Reply-To: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> References: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> Message-ID: I doubt it. Every computer should already have Office on it. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Gloria G [gloria.graves at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Office Hi all, I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for college students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted price, and if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs user, is there one version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what I need to. Thanks in advance _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 20:31:54 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:31:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Office In-Reply-To: References: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> Message-ID: <006501ce45e1$c1575f90$44061eb0$@gmail.com> Joshua, Windows computers don't automatically come with Office; it must be bought and installed onto the computer. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 4:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Office I doubt it. Every computer should already have Office on it. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Gloria G [gloria.graves at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Office Hi all, I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for college students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted price, and if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs user, is there one version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what I need to. Thanks in advance _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 20:36:42 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:36:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Office In-Reply-To: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> References: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> Message-ID: <006601ce45e2$6ced4ea0$46c7ebe0$@gmail.com> Gloria, There is a slightly slimmed-down version of Office for students called Office Home & Student. I'm not sure how expensive it is, but I would imagine that it is cheaper than the full version. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 4:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Office Hi all, I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for college students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted price, and if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs user, is there one version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what I need to. Thanks in advance _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From sgermano at asu.edu Tue Apr 30 20:44:01 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 13:44:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Office In-Reply-To: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> References: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> Message-ID: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/home-and-student/ Also most college and universities sell the student edition you might be able to get it for free through Dreamspark through my univeristy I was able to get windows 7 professional 64 bit and visual studio for free through Dreamspark It was not an upgrade version of windows. I use a mac and needed windows to run one program I was using for a class. On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Gloria G wrote: > Hi all, > I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for > college students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted > price, and if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs user, > is there one version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a > silly question, but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what I > need to. Thanks in advance > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From gloria.graves at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 21:26:33 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:26:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Office References: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> Message-ID: Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Germano" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Office > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/home-and-student/ > > Also most college and universities sell the student edition > > you might be able to get it for free through Dreamspark through my > univeristy I was able to get windows 7 professional 64 bit and visual > studio for free through Dreamspark > > It was not an upgrade version of windows. I use a mac and needed windows > to > run one program I was using for a class. > > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Gloria G wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for >> college students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted >> price, and if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs >> user, >> is there one version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a >> silly question, but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what >> I >> need to. Thanks in advance >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 21:26:49 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:26:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Office References: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> <006601ce45e2$6ced4ea0$46c7ebe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02BD831A33164D409D61B221393B9B43@Gloria> Thank you ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Office > Gloria, > > There is a slightly slimmed-down version of Office for students called > Office Home & Student. I'm not sure how expensive it is, but I would > imagine > that it is cheaper than the full version. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 4:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Office > > Hi all, > I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for > college > students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted price, > and > if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs user, is there > one > version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a silly question, > but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what I need to. > Thanks > in advance _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 22:06:36 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:06:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Office In-Reply-To: <02BD831A33164D409D61B221393B9B43@Gloria> References: <6EB25E2244984EDD861DD12121E17A70@Gloria> <006601ce45e2$6ced4ea0$46c7ebe0$@gmail.com> <02BD831A33164D409D61B221393B9B43@Gloria> Message-ID: You might also try open office. It's free, however I can't attest to it's accessibility with Jaws. I do believe it has the capability to export the files as rtf and other document filetypes though, so if someone can say that it's jaws-user-friendly it might be a good option for you. On 4/30/13, Gloria G wrote: > Thank you > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Office > > >> Gloria, >> >> There is a slightly slimmed-down version of Office for students called >> Office Home & Student. I'm not sure how expensive it is, but I would >> imagine >> that it is cheaper than the full version. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria G >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 4:23 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Office >> >> Hi all, >> I was wonderingi f anyone could tell me if there is it possible for >> college >> students to purchase the latest version of office at a discounted price, >> and >> if so where do I do this? I was also wondering, as a JAWs user, is there >> one >> version of office better than another? Sorry if this is a silly question, >> but I am not the most tech savvy person. I only know what I need to. >> Thanks >> in advance _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 22:09:34 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:09:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <24E3123ECBAC43089C88DEBC33ACDF81@OwnerPC> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net><57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com><424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> <24E3123ECBAC43089C88DEBC33ACDF81@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> Ashley, A serial port should work for this. Chris Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair Public Relations Committee Maryland Association of Blind Students Phone: (443) 547-2409 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:16 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Lilly, I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook a monitor to the notetaker? -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey with graphics in the file or massive word banks. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course > a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue > getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a > distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters > to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated > working with disability services and much preferred to work out the > testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have > students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center > because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors > have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their > tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone > else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. > I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between > using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a > text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it > back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, > professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is > to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I > think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of > using my Braille Note. > > Arielle > > On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Kirt, >> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, >> how do you read the exam? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Ashley, >> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the >> test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is >> as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the >> very least? >> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take >> their test >> >> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >> class takes it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Ashley, >>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want >>> to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these >>> types of problems. For example, if your taking another class like >>> this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? >>> Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? >>> You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You >>> could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably have >>> to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off to make >>> sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you mentioning in >>> another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are you >>> with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>> the test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from >>> there on your display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille >>> (sort of.) For these tests with the foreign language words, and >>> other tests in general, this could also iliminate the reader >>> problems your having. I don't know if any >>> >>> of >>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>> was thinking of. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>> hearing a reader state these words. >>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the >>> braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left. >>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>> this. >>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>> brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to >>> work with. >>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>> against braille was the following: >>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read >>> the exam with jaws. >>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>> necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to >>> translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam >>> now. >>> >>> It was a pr exam btw. >>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>> time. >>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: justin williams >>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>> Germano >>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >>> along with the reader? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, >>>> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >>>> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll >>>> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have >>>>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you >>>>> step out of their office. >>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >>>>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a >>>>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you >>>>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the >>>>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This >>>>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then >>>>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>> >>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >>>>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really >>>>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some >>>>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their >>>>> right as professors >>> to do. >>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>> arrange for >>>>>> >>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>> violates school >>>>>> >>>>>> policy. >>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >>>>>> readers for exams with no objection from the professor? Where >>>>>> would they take the exam and how does the professor ensure that >>>>>> you did not cheat then? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>> office. >>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >>>>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that >>>>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office >>>>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the >>>>>> test in their >>> office. >>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically >>>>>> not quite in line with school policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>> I >>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>> Gosh. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts >>>>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a >>>>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>> option >>> to >>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a >>>>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and >>>>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or some such? >>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. >>>>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because >>>>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an >>>>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who >>>>>>> might not >>> care much. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but >>>>>>>> when I >>>> had >>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>> person >>>> was >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. >>>>>>>> And then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring >>>>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always >>>>>>>>> provided me with >>> competent >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now >>>>>>>>> and my next college. >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >>>>>>>>> slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that >>>>>>>>> clearly and read fast >>>> and >>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>> with >>>> jaws >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>> directly >>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>> If >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.c >>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>> edu >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea >>> rthlink >>>> . >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>> edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>> net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >> thlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%4 > 0fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Apr 30 22:23:34 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:23:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net><57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com><424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> <24E3123ECBAC43089C88DEBC33ACDF81@OwnerPC> <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51804466.70300@tysdomain.com> A serial port does not work for this. The VGA monitors look like a serial port, but they're not with obvious different pin configurations. I don't know if the MPower has the right ports on it--if there's a USB port, you may be able to get a USB to DVI converter and use that to hook into a DVI monitor. It really depends on the port configuration. On 4/30/2013 4:09 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Ashley, > > A serial port should work for this. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:16 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Lilly, > I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook a monitor > to the notetaker? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your > Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you > were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey > with graphics in the file or massive word banks. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >> using my Braille Note. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, >>> how do you read the exam? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley, >>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the >>> test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is >>> as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the >>> very least? >>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take >>> their test >>> >>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >>> class takes it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want >>>> to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these >>>> types of problems. For example, if your taking another class like >>>> this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? >>>> Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? >>>> You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You >>>> could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably have >>>> to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off to make >>>> sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you mentioning in >>>> another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are you >>>> with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>>> the test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from >>>> there on your display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille >>>> (sort of.) For these tests with the foreign language words, and >>>> other tests in general, this could also iliminate the reader >>>> problems your having. I don't know if any >>>> >>>> of >>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>>> was thinking of. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>> Bramlett >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>> hearing a reader state these words. >>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the >>>> braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology > guy left. >>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>> this. >>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>> brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to >>>> work with. >>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>> against braille was the following: >>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read >>>> the exam with jaws. >>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>> necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to >>>> translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam >>>> now. >>>> >>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>> time. >>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: justin williams >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>> Germano >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >>>> along with the reader? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, >>>>> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >>>>> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll >>>>> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have >>>>>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you >>>>>> step out of their office. >>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >>>>>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a >>>>>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you >>>>>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the >>>>>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This >>>>>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then >>>>>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>> >>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >>>>>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really >>>>>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some >>>>>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their >>>>>> right as professors >>>> to do. >>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>> >>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >>>>>>> readers for exams with no objection from the professor? Where >>>>>>> would they take the exam and how does the professor ensure that >>>>>>> you did not cheat then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>> office. >>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >>>>>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that >>>>>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office >>>>>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the >>>>>>> test in their >>>> office. >>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically >>>>>>> not quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts >>>>>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a >>>>>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>> option >>>> to >>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a >>>>>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and >>>>>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or > some such? >>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. >>>>>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because >>>>>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an >>>>>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who >>>>>>>> might not >>>> care much. >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but >>>>>>>>> when I >>>>> had >>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>> was >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. >>>>>>>>> And then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring >>>>>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always >>>>>>>>>> provided me with >>>> competent >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>>>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now >>>>>>>>>> and my next college. >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >>>>>>>>>> slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that >>>>>>>>>> clearly and read fast >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>> If >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.c >>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>> edu >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea >>>> rthlink >>>>> . >>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> %40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>> edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> %40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >>> thlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%4 >> 0fuse.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Apr 30 22:23:30 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:23:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC><6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC><001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com><9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC><011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com><8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC><000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net><57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com><424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> <24E3123ECBAC43089C88DEBC33ACDF81@OwnerPC> <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51804462.1040309@tysdomain.com> A serial port does not work for this. The VGA monitors look like a serial port, but they're not with obvious different pin configurations. I don't know if the MPower has the right ports on it--if there's a USB port, you may be able to get a USB to DVI converter and use that to hook into a DVI monitor. It really depends on the port configuration. On 4/30/2013 4:09 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Ashley, > > A serial port should work for this. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:16 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Lilly, > I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook a monitor > to the notetaker? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your > Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you > were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey > with graphics in the file or massive word banks. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >> using my Braille Note. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, >>> how do you read the exam? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley, >>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the >>> test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is >>> as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the >>> very least? >>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take >>> their test >>> >>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >>> class takes it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want >>>> to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these >>>> types of problems. For example, if your taking another class like >>>> this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? >>>> Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? >>>> You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You >>>> could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably have >>>> to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off to make >>>> sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you mentioning in >>>> another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are you >>>> with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>>> the test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from >>>> there on your display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille >>>> (sort of.) For these tests with the foreign language words, and >>>> other tests in general, this could also iliminate the reader >>>> problems your having. I don't know if any >>>> >>>> of >>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>>> was thinking of. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>> Bramlett >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>> hearing a reader state these words. >>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the >>>> braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology > guy left. >>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>> this. >>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>> brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to >>>> work with. >>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>> against braille was the following: >>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read >>>> the exam with jaws. >>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>> necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to >>>> translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam >>>> now. >>>> >>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>> time. >>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: justin williams >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>> Germano >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >>>> along with the reader? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, >>>>> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >>>>> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll >>>>> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have >>>>>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you >>>>>> step out of their office. >>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >>>>>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a >>>>>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you >>>>>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the >>>>>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This >>>>>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then >>>>>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>> >>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >>>>>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really >>>>>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some >>>>>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their >>>>>> right as professors >>>> to do. >>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>> >>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >>>>>>> readers for exams with no objection from the professor? Where >>>>>>> would they take the exam and how does the professor ensure that >>>>>>> you did not cheat then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>> office. >>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >>>>>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that >>>>>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office >>>>>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the >>>>>>> test in their >>>> office. >>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically >>>>>>> not quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts >>>>>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a >>>>>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>> option >>>> to >>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a >>>>>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and >>>>>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or > some such? >>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. >>>>>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because >>>>>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an >>>>>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who >>>>>>>> might not >>>> care much. >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but >>>>>>>>> when I >>>>> had >>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>> was >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. >>>>>>>>> And then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring >>>>>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always >>>>>>>>>> provided me with >>>> competent >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>>>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now >>>>>>>>>> and my next college. >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >>>>>>>>>> slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that >>>>>>>>>> clearly and read fast >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed. >>>> If >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.c >>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>> edu >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea >>>> rthlink >>>>> . >>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> %40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>> edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> %40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >>> thlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%4 >> 0fuse.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 22:37:04 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:37:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> <424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> <24E3123ECBAC43089C88DEBC33ACDF81@OwnerPC> <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, I agree with Kirt, Lillie, Arielle, Melissa, etc. My question is, if you do use the BrailleNote to read your test why wouldn't you use it to write your answers as well. You could always flip between the test document and your answer document with the 1 2 5 6 and space command, which would cut out the need to have a reader at all. In addition to what has been said by others, I think the fewer number of people you bring into the situation the easier it could be. For example, if your professor would be okay with you using the notetaker to read the test and just gave you a flashdrive with the test on it, you could take the test in their office, put the answer sheet file on the flash drive when you're done, and instantly hand the test back to your professor. In my experiences this is the most uncomplicated way of handling testing situations, and it also doesn't take other unnecessary people to get the job done. Anyway, I was just curious. Also, another note adding to what Lillie said. Your office claims there is no one to run the software to braille your stuff; have you told them that all they need to do is take a document and click a few buttons in Microsoft word and as long as the embosser is on they really don't need some special person to do it? My university hired an assistive technology specialist to help with things like checking accessibility of the blackboard stuff, making sure my math turned out to be doable, etc, and to do my brailling, but running an embosser is by no means rocket science and I've even had students who work the disability office desk and had never even embossed anything before figure out where to click and emboss documents for me when she wasn't available. Perhaps your councelor isn't aware of how simple the process of embossing is? You might want to try asking her if she knows how the process really works and see if she'll be more agreeable to make braille coppies for you if she knows she doesn't need special training and that it won't take much of her time. Good luck, from one final exam-taking student to another. On 4/30/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Ashley, > > A serial port should work for this. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:16 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Lilly, > I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook a > monitor > to the notetaker? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your > Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you > were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey > with graphics in the file or massive word banks. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >> using my Braille Note. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, >>> how do you read the exam? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt >>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Ashley, >>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the >>> test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is >>> as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the >>> very least? >>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take >>> their test >>> >>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >>> class takes it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want >>>> to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these >>>> types of problems. For example, if your taking another class like >>>> this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? >>>> Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? >>>> You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You >>>> could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably have >>>> to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off to make >>>> sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you mentioning in >>>> another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are you >>>> with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>>> the test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from >>>> there on your display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille >>>> (sort of.) For these tests with the foreign language words, and >>>> other tests in general, this could also iliminate the reader >>>> problems your having. I don't know if any >>>> >>>> of >>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>>> was thinking of. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>> Bramlett >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>> hearing a reader state these words. >>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the >>>> braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology > guy left. >>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>> this. >>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>> brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to >>>> work with. >>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>> against braille was the following: >>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read >>>> the exam with jaws. >>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>> necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to >>>> translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam >>>> now. >>>> >>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>> time. >>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: justin williams >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>> Germano >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >>>> along with the reader? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, >>>>> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >>>>> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll >>>>> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have >>>>>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you >>>>>> step out of their office. >>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >>>>>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a >>>>>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you >>>>>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the >>>>>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This >>>>>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then >>>>>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>> >>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >>>>>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really >>>>>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some >>>>>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their >>>>>> right as professors >>>> to do. >>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>> >>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >>>>>>> readers for exams with no objection from the professor? Where >>>>>>> would they take the exam and how does the professor ensure that >>>>>>> you did not cheat then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>> office. >>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >>>>>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that >>>>>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office >>>>>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the >>>>>>> test in their >>>> office. >>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically >>>>>>> not quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>> I >>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts >>>>>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a >>>>>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>> option >>>> to >>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a >>>>>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and >>>>>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or > some such? >>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. >>>>>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because >>>>>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an >>>>>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who >>>>>>>> might not >>>> care much. >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but >>>>>>>>> when I >>>>> had >>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>> was >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. >>>>>>>>> And then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring >>>>>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always >>>>>>>>>> provided me with >>>> competent >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>>>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now >>>>>>>>>> and my next college. >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >>>>>>>>>> slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that >>>>>>>>>> clearly and read fast >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I >>>>>>>>>> missed. >>>> If >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another >>>>>>>>>>> message. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.c >>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>> edu >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea >>>> rthlink >>>>> . >>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> %40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>> edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> %40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >>> thlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%4 >> 0fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Apr 30 23:19:51 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:19:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> References: <98AB8415CDAA4D56B6BAFAD44745358A@OwnerPC> <43A02716-1F76-4C0F-9332-98E2038F4207@gmail.com> <6D996CF065B94CE8978A2EB01DE2C5CA@OwnerPC> <001c01ce42f3$6dad8ea0$4908abe0$@gmail.com> <9A47148DE1FE4ECEB752BE9FDF378FBF@OwnerPC> <011c01ce43ad$2e7473b0$8b5d5b10$@gmail.com> <8F46E514B92E4F00B2E4DEF3C1675E01@OwnerPC> <000001ce4524$95062470$bf126d50$@net> <57D5DF01-30B9-48D8-B086-27F784803C1A@gmail.com> <424A4A0CB0B64AEA80702B1DF6812802@OwnerPC> <24E3123ECBAC43089C88DEBC33ACDF81@OwnerPC> <007d01ce45ef$65ee2810$31ca7830$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20687B8F-FDE0-4484-BE8A-06A91D309FE3@fuse.net> The cable is usually attached to the printer. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2013, at 6:09 PM, "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: > Ashley, > > A serial port should work for this. > > Chris > > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair > Public Relations Committee > Maryland Association of Blind Students > Phone: (443) 547-2409 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:16 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Lilly, > I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook a monitor > to the notetaker? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your > Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you > were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey > with graphics in the file or massive word banks. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 04:11:08 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 00:11:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <74BCED03928D4C569FE81FD4ACF3AF7D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <016c01ce4558$be2a87e0$3a7f97a0$@gmail.com> I have only taken oen test during our age of technology. I am 33 years old, and I would think older than some of you. The only real exams I took this year were either take home, or I took them on my computer in the test procturing room. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations I've never taken a test in a professor's office; I've always done it in class with the other students, either on my Braille Note or laptop. One time I did the test in the teaching assistant's office on my Braille Note so she could describe diagrams to me. I know that's not an option for Ashley, but just putting out there for others. Arielle On 4/30/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Kaiti, > I've never used the braille note for tests as I said before. I was told by > the school to go to the testing center and use their computer. > However, if I did use the Braille note, I'd > still need a reader to write my answers on a scantron. If it was essay, I'd > > simply write the essay in the file. > > Also, I'm glad taking tests in the professor's office works for you. > However, when I requested to do this in the past, they say that they are > busy or something. > I agree with you that your way sounds uncomplicated. > > I'll definitely consider taking future exams in my professor's office again > > if I take more classes; I should be finishing my certificate now though. > I could see that its easy; simply taking it on a notetaker or laptop. > > Regarding the brailling of the test, I agree with you. > The process is incredibly easy with Duxbury which is the software the school > > has, or used to have. > Its not rocket science. > > The counselor should know a little about technology for blind people having > > been a prior vr counselor at the department for the blind here. > When you said, > "Perhaps your councelor isn't aware of how simple the > process of embossing is? You might want to try asking her if she > knows how the process really works and see if she'll be more agreeable > to make braille coppies for you if she knows she doesn't need special > training and that it won't take much of her time." > > I can certainly ask her about this. They have student worker staff in the > counseling office and a student could convert it to braille with duxbury > from a Word file. > Personally, I think her claim that no one can braille it because the > assistive technology lab guy left is an excuse. > They could make braille happen if they wanted to with all the staff and > resources they have. > > I like the points you made about the ease of embossing and no special > technology knowledge needed. Great points. Maybe that will change their mind > > for the next student that comes along and needs embossing. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations > > Hi Ashley, > > I agree with Kirt, Lillie, Arielle, Melissa, etc. > > My question is, if you do use the BrailleNote to read your test why > wouldn't you use it to write your answers as well. You could always > flip between the test document and your answer document with the 1 2 5 > 6 and space command, which would cut out the need to have a reader at > all. > > In addition to what has been said by others, I think the fewer number > of people you bring into the situation the easier it could be. For > example, if your professor would be okay with you using the notetaker > to read the test and just gave you a flashdrive with the test on it, > you could take the test in their office, put the answer sheet file on > the flash drive when you're done, and instantly hand the test back to > your professor. In my experiences this is the most uncomplicated way > of handling testing situations, and it also doesn't take other > unnecessary people to get the job done. Anyway, I was just curious. > > Also, another note adding to what Lillie said. Your office claims > there is no one to run the software to braille your stuff; have you > told them that all they need to do is take a document and click a few > buttons in Microsoft word and as long as the embosser is on they > really don't need some special person to do it? My university hired > an assistive technology specialist to help with things like checking > accessibility of the blackboard stuff, making sure my math turned out > to be doable, etc, and to do my brailling, but running an embosser is > by no means rocket science and I've even had students who work the > disability office desk and had never even embossed anything before > figure out where to click and emboss documents for me when she wasn't > available. Perhaps your councelor isn't aware of how simple the > process of embossing is? You might want to try asking her if she > knows how the process really works and see if she'll be more agreeable > to make braille coppies for you if she knows she doesn't need special > training and that it won't take much of her time. > Good luck, from one final exam-taking student to another. > > On 4/30/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Ashley, >> >> A serial port should work for this. >> >> Chris >> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >> Public Relations Committee >> Maryland Association of Blind Students >> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:16 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Lilly, >> I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook a >> monitor >> to the notetaker? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lillie Pennington >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to your >> Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could see what you >> were doing and not cheating. I like that system as well. It can get dicey >> with graphics in the file or massive word banks. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >> >>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course >>> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue >>> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a >>> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters >>> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated >>> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the >>> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have >>> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center >>> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors >>> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone >>> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between >>> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a >>> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it >>> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated, >>> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is >>> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I >>> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of >>> using my Braille Note. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, >>>> how do you read the exam? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kirt >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the >>>> test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is >>>> as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the >>>> very least? >>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take >>>> their test >>>> >>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the >>>> class takes it. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want >>>>> to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these >>>>> types of problems. For example, if your taking another class like >>>>> this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? >>>>> Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? >>>>> You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You >>>>> could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably have >>>>> to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off to make >>>>> sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you mentioning in >>>>> another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable are you >>>>> with electronic files? The professor may have an electronic copy of >>>>> the test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from >>>>> there on your display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille >>>>> (sort of.) For these tests with the foreign language words, and >>>>> other tests in general, this could also iliminate the reader >>>>> problems your having. I don't know if any >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I >>>>> was thinking of. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>> Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of >>>>> hearing a reader state these words. >>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the >>>>> braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology >> guy left. >>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for >>>>> this. >>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam >>>>> brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to >>>>> work with. >>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument >>>>> against braille was the following: >>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read >>>>> the exam with jaws. >>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not >>>>> necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to >>>>> translate into braille because you have a means to access the exam >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough >>>>> time. >>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: justin williams >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne >>>>> Germano >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>> >>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow >>>>> along with the reader? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out >>>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, >>>>>> if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow >>>>>> their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll >>>>>> be willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have >>>>>>> to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you >>>>>>> step out of their office. >>>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >>>>>>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a >>>>>>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or you >>>>>>> could go to the professor's office hours and do it there while the >>>>>>> professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who >>>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I >>>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my >>>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This >>>>>>> will help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then >>>>>>> you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >>>>>>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who really >>>>>>> has control over how you take tests is the professor. Some >>>>>>> professors give their entire classes online exams. That's their >>>>>>> right as professors >>>>> to do. >>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader, >>>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other >>>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me >>>>>>>> arrange for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >>>>>>>> readers for exams with no objection from the professor? Where >>>>>>>> would they take the exam and how does the professor ensure that >>>>>>>> you did not cheat then? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their >>>>>>>> office. >>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >>>>>>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that >>>>>>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS office >>>>>>>> only has authority if you give it to them by asking to take the >>>>>>>> test in their >>>>> office. >>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically >>>>>>>> not quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree >>>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing >>>>>>>>> certificate. The class >>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers. >>>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and >>>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me >>>>>>>>> to do this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts >>>>>>>>> and looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a >>>>>>>>> reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the >>>>>>>>> option >>>>> to >>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA. >>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower >>>>>>>>> grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material >>>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they >>>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing >>>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting >>>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a >>>>>>>>> community college, maybe the professor could read it for you and >>>>>>>>> scribe your answers during office hours the day before the test or >> some such? >>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. >>>>>>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice because >>>>>>>>> they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an >>>>>>>>> option that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who >>>>>>>>> might not >>>>> care much. >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but >>>>>>>>>> when I >>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. >>>>>>>>>> And then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring >>>>>>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always >>>>>>>>>>> provided me with >>>>> competent >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>>>>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right now >>>>>>>>>>> and my next college. >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>>> you get. >>>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a >>>>>>>>>>>> scantron, >>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >>>>>>>>>>> slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that >>>>>>>>>>> clearly and read fast >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can >>>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I >>>>>>>>>>> missed. >>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another >>>>>>>>>>>> message. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>>> 0gmail.c >>>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>>> edu >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea >>>>> rthlink >>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>> net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>>> edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>>> %40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >>>> thlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%4 >>> 0fuse.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 04:14:06 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 00:14:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the test accomodations In-Reply-To: References: <74BCED03928D4C569FE81FD4ACF3AF7D@OwnerPC> <56437545-CA01-469F-8C66-2CE294238750@gmail.com> Message-ID: <017001ce4559$286a63f0$793f2bd0$@gmail.com> Where did you have your exam; in braille, or on the braille note? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations Hi, Certainly taking the tests in class is the least complicated route, although for Ashley it sounds like her office is uptight about a lot of things, monitoring how tests are administered and taken being one of them. Ashley, good for you for taking future students into account; it's unfortunate that you've had so many issues with the ds office at your school, but hopefully future students won't have these same issues. One point I'd like to clarify, is that it is possible to take a test on a BrailleNote, even if there is a scantron sheet. I did this all through high school and continue to do it when I have multiple choice questions in college. Basically as long as you can read the multiple choice answers you just write the letter down like this: 1. A. 2. B. 3. D. Although your school seems kind of uptight about doing even little things themselves, I've never had a problem with just handing a teacher or professor a print out or flashdrive with my test on it and them grading it from there. Some fill out the scantron sheet for me, which I've seen done and only takes them a few seconds. Others can just look at their answer key and grade directly off of your letter answers. It just depends on what method works best for them, but either way it shouldn't be a big deal. Also, about the embossing, they could definitely do something about it. My music department hired two students to transcribe braille music for me and they picked up on the software and how to use the embosser pretty quickly, and I think Duxberry is probably less complicated than Goodfeel for most visual people. They could even hire a student to do it; it would take the embossing responsibilities off of their hands, give a student an easy job, and give you the material you want or need in braille format. You would also be able to cut out the middle man of the ds office here, as you could directly correspond with the embosser to tell them what you need embossed and when. (E.G, when I need something embossed I either email an attachment or take my music to one of the guys who does my braille music transcription, and he'll either email me the electronic file back if I want to edit it or go through it on my computer, or give the embossed copy to me or to one of our professors to give to me in class if I'm not around.). From your descriptions of your ds office I'm not sure how receptive they would be to that idea, or if they even give students campus jobs at all, but it's a suggestion. On 4/30/13, Jane wrote: > Lots of tests I did via email or in offices, or sometimes in Learning > Labs that departments ran. Some classes had open book tests made for > me, but those were a lot harder than you'd think--and I wasn't the > best person at taking notes ... > > I used to take some of my American Lit tests in my professor's office. > It had its benefits--like bananas, or water, or crackers. Besides, the > prof could keep an eye on me and make sure I didn't go into labor > (literally) in his office. He would read me the test to copy down and > then I'd have an hour to answer the questions--just like the rest got. > In lit classes, I either knew the answers or I didn't. Actually, for > most of my classes, I either knew the material or I didn't. The only > time I needed anything close to extra time, that I can remember, was > Math classes, and I tried not to use that very often, because again, I > either knew the steps to solve problems or I didn't. I took advantage > of extra time on Math finals, though, because the prof explicitly told > me he didn't mind if I did, and he wanted me to have a good shot. > You'd think it wouldn't take over two hours to do 25 problems, but it > did with my anxieties. Ad we're not talking about hard stuff, very basic algebra, remedial math courses. > > Jane > > > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:14 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > > wrote: > >> Arielle, >> That's a good idea if it works for you. I never have done exams in >> class in college; I need extended time and well it just did not seem >> fair to me to ask to do an exam on my personal equipment anyway. >> >> Anyway, I also like the idea of using a TA's office if your class has >> one. >> Thanks for sharing. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >> >> I've never taken a test in a professor's office; I've always done it >> in class with the other students, either on my Braille Note or laptop. >> One time I did the test in the teaching assistant's office on my >> Braille Note so she could describe diagrams to me. I know that's not >> an option for Ashley, but just putting out there for others. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/30/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Kaiti, >>> I've never used the braille note for tests as I said before. I was >>> told by the school to go to the testing center and use their >>> computer. >>> However, if I did use the Braille note, I'd still need a reader to >>> write my answers on a scantron. If it was essay, I'd >>> >>> simply write the essay in the file. >>> >>> Also, I'm glad taking tests in the professor's office works for you. >>> However, when I requested to do this in the past, they say that they >>> are busy or something. >>> I agree with you that your way sounds uncomplicated. >>> >>> I'll definitely consider taking future exams in my professor's >>> office again >>> >>> if I take more classes; I should be finishing my certificate now though. >>> I could see that its easy; simply taking it on a notetaker or laptop. >>> >>> Regarding the brailling of the test, I agree with you. >>> The process is incredibly easy with Duxbury which is the software >>> the school >>> >>> has, or used to have. >>> Its not rocket science. >>> >>> The counselor should know a little about technology for blind people >>> having >>> >>> been a prior vr counselor at the department for the blind here. >>> When you said, >>> "Perhaps your councelor isn't aware of how simple the process of >>> embossing is? You might want to try asking her if she knows how the >>> process really works and see if she'll be more agreeable to make >>> braille coppies for you if she knows she doesn't need special >>> training and that it won't take much of her time." >>> >>> I can certainly ask her about this. They have student worker staff >>> in the counseling office and a student could convert it to braille >>> with duxbury from a Word file. >>> Personally, I think her claim that no one can braille it because the >>> assistive technology lab guy left is an excuse. >>> They could make braille happen if they wanted to with all the staff >>> and resources they have. >>> >>> I like the points you made about the ease of embossing and no >>> special technology knowledge needed. Great points. Maybe that will >>> change their mind >>> >>> for the next student that comes along and needs embossing. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:37 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>> >>> Hi Ashley, >>> >>> I agree with Kirt, Lillie, Arielle, Melissa, etc. >>> >>> My question is, if you do use the BrailleNote to read your test why >>> wouldn't you use it to write your answers as well. You could always >>> flip between the test document and your answer document with the 1 2 >>> 5 >>> 6 and space command, which would cut out the need to have a reader >>> at all. >>> >>> In addition to what has been said by others, I think the fewer >>> number of people you bring into the situation the easier it could >>> be. For example, if your professor would be okay with you using the >>> notetaker to read the test and just gave you a flashdrive with the >>> test on it, you could take the test in their office, put the answer >>> sheet file on the flash drive when you're done, and instantly hand >>> the test back to your professor. In my experiences this is the most >>> uncomplicated way of handling testing situations, and it also >>> doesn't take other unnecessary people to get the job done. Anyway, I was just curious. >>> >>> Also, another note adding to what Lillie said. Your office claims >>> there is no one to run the software to braille your stuff; have you >>> told them that all they need to do is take a document and click a >>> few buttons in Microsoft word and as long as the embosser is on they >>> really don't need some special person to do it? My university hired >>> an assistive technology specialist to help with things like checking >>> accessibility of the blackboard stuff, making sure my math turned >>> out to be doable, etc, and to do my brailling, but running an >>> embosser is by no means rocket science and I've even had students >>> who work the disability office desk and had never even embossed >>> anything before figure out where to click and emboss documents for >>> me when she wasn't available. Perhaps your councelor isn't aware of >>> how simple the process of embossing is? You might want to try >>> asking her if she knows how the process really works and see if >>> she'll be more agreeable to make braille coppies for you if she >>> knows she doesn't need special training and that it won't take much of her time. >>> Good luck, from one final exam-taking student to another. >>> >>> On 4/30/13, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> Ashley, >>>> >>>> A serial port should work for this. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair >>>> Public Relations Committee >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>> Bramlett >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:16 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Lilly, >>>> I like that idea. I have an m'power. What cable do you use to hook >>>> a monitor to the notetaker? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Lillie Pennington >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:35 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity. Did the issue of having a monitor hooked up to >>>> your Braille note ever come up so the professor or whoever could >>>> see what you were doing and not cheating. I like that system as >>>> well. It can get dicey with graphics in the file or massive word >>>> banks. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 9:11 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology >>>>> course a few years ago, and was on the other side of the >>>>> accommodations issue getting disability letters from students who >>>>> needed extended time or a distraction-free environment for >>>>> testing. I would send these letters to the instructor who >>>>> supervised me and he always said he hated working with disability >>>>> services and much preferred to work out the testing "in-house" >>>>> between him/me and the student. So I would have students take >>>>> exams in my office instead of using the testing center because it >>>>> was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors have >>>>> to go through disability services, they have to prepare their >>>>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone else's because they don't get it from disability services until later. >>>>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise >>>>> between using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could >>>>> give you a text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note >>>>> and then turn it back in at the same time as all other students. >>>>> As others have stated, professors may or may not allow this but >>>>> the only way to find out is to ask. I used my Braille Note for >>>>> testing for four semesters and I think in that time only one >>>>> professor insisted I use DSS instead of using my Braille Note. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If >>>>>> not, how do you read the exam? >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kirt >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley, >>>>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take >>>>>> the test outside of the testing center. If your relationship with >>>>>> her is as good as you say it is, what would be the harm in >>>>>> asking, at the very least? >>>>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take >>>>>> their test >>>>>> >>>>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of >>>>>> the class takes it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley, >>>>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may >>>>>>> want to be thinking in the long term of how your going to be >>>>>>> fixing these types of problems. For example, if your taking >>>>>>> another class like this where you may want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? >>>>>>> Would you be willing to pay with your own money for a Braille test? >>>>>>> You could look into getting your tests transcribed somehow. You >>>>>>> could talk to your future professors about this (you'd probably >>>>>>> have to make arrangements for them to somehow send the test off >>>>>>> to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you >>>>>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How >>>>>>> comfortable are you with electronic files? The professor may >>>>>>> have an electronic copy of the test and you could load it on >>>>>>> your Braille note and read from there on your display so you are >>>>>>> indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these tests with >>>>>>> the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this >>>>>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't >>>>>>> know if any >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions >>>>>>> that I was thinking of. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Justin and everyone, >>>>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this >>>>>>> problem of hearing a reader state these words. >>>>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the >>>>>>> braille production anymore; I don't know what the assistive >>>>>>> technology >>>> guy left. >>>>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time >>>>>>> for this. >>>>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another >>>>>>> exam brailled last semester. She refused! As I said, she is >>>>>>> difficult to work with. >>>>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and >>>>>>> argument against braille was the following: >>>>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can >>>>>>> read the exam with jaws. >>>>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam. >>>>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is >>>>>>> not necessary to braille this exam. We won't pay for the >>>>>>> outsourcing to translate into braille because you have a means >>>>>>> to access the exam now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was a pr exam btw. >>>>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was >>>>>>> enough time. >>>>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: justin williams >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At this point, why not. Not a bad idea. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Suzanne Germano >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can >>>>>>> follow along with the reader? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman < >>>>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut >>>>>>>> out the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a >>>>>>>> backup, if the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to >>>>>>>> DSS and follow their rules. But you said the prof is helpful, >>>>>>>> so it's likely he'll be willing to work something out with you that's fair. >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you >>>>>>>>> have to use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you >>>>>>>>> once you step out of their office. >>>>>>>>> I don't know where other blind students have taken tests with >>>>>>>>> their private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a >>>>>>>>> designated testing room in the building where the class is, or >>>>>>>>> you could go to the professor's office hours and do it there >>>>>>>>> while the professor is around to ensure you don't cheat. >>>>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader >>>>>>>>> who works for the department, like a student worker or an >>>>>>>>> assistant. I don't know how it works in community colleges, >>>>>>>>> but I know at my university, the psych department has a huge >>>>>>>>> support staff. This will help you avoid having to pay out of >>>>>>>>> pocket, though even then you might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but >>>>>>>>> they're not binding on you as the student. The only one who >>>>>>>>> really has control over how you take tests is the professor. >>>>>>>>> Some professors give their entire classes online exams. That's >>>>>>>>> their right as professors >>>>>>> to do. >>>>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own >>>>>>>>> reader, or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of >>>>>>>>> other accommodations, that's their decision to make. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is >>>>>>>>>> me arrange for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam. >>>>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this >>>>>>>>>> violates school >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> policy. >>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own >>>>>>>>>> readers for exams with no objection from the professor? Where >>>>>>>>>> would they take the exam and how does the professor ensure >>>>>>>>>> that you did not cheat then? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of >>>>>>>>>> their office. >>>>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you >>>>>>>>>> hired yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that >>>>>>>>>> arrangement you worked out with your professor. The DSS >>>>>>>>>> office only has authority if you give it to them by asking to >>>>>>>>>> take the test in their >>>>>>> office. >>>>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the >>>>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite >>>>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are >>>>>>>>>> technically not quite in line with school policy. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA >>>>>>>>>>> degree but taking classes to further my studies and get a >>>>>>>>>>> writing certificate. The class >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion. >>>>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college. >>>>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own >>>>>>>>>>> readers. >>>>>>>> Gosh. >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers >>>>>>>>>>> and have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't >>>>>>>>>>> allow me to do this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading >>>>>>>>>>> texts and looking up material and research, but no I cannot >>>>>>>>>>> bring a reader to the exam. Personally, I think this is a >>>>>>>>>>> legal >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have >>>>>>>>>>> the option >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the >>>>>>>>>>> ADA. >>>>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a >>>>>>>>>>> lower grade using bad readers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can >>>>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most >>>>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced >>>>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the >>>>>>>>>>> material well, and since they're trusted employees of the >>>>>>>>>>> professor, they are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, >>>>>>>>>>> many TA's have nothing else to do during an exam and would >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise just be sitting around. If the class has no >>>>>>>>>>> teaching assistant, as in a community college, maybe the >>>>>>>>>>> professor could read it for you and scribe your answers >>>>>>>>>>> during office hours the day before the test or >>>> some such? >>>>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for >>>>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. >>>>>>>>>>> Some disability services offices frown on this practice >>>>>>>>>>> because they prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, >>>>>>>>>>> but it's an option that's at least worth discussing with >>>>>>>>>>> your professor, who might not >>>>>>> care much. >>>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv >>>>>>>>>>>> but when I >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted >>>>>>>>>>>> the person >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. >>>>>>>>>>>> And then you interview them by having them read to you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring >>>>>>>>>>>>> between colleges, but the college I am leaving almost >>>>>>>>>>>>> always provided me with >>>>>>> competent >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words >>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud. I hope I >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't run into the same problem you are dealing with right >>>>>>>>>>>>> now and my next college. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accomodations you get. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a scantron, >>>>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers were >>>>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak >>>>>>>>>>>>> slower and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all >>>>>>>>>>>>> that clearly and read fast >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I >>>>>>>>>>>>> took with >>>>>>>> jaws >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader >>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> directly >>>>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I >>>>>>>>>>>>> missed. >>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another >>>>>>>>>>>>>> message. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >>>>>>> de%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.c >>>>>>>>>>> om >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>> account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>>>>> edu >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb% >>>>>>> 40ea >>>>>>> rthlink >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willi >>>>>>> ams2 >>>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu. >>>>>>>> edu >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willi >>>>>>> ams2 >>>>>>> %40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>>>> net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >>>>>>> de%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>>>>> 0ear >>>>>> thlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>> mail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenningt >>>>> on%4 >>>>> 0fuse.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum% >>>> 40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet1 >>>> 04%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea >>> rthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >> thlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitatighan%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com