[nabs-l] canes and water park rides
Kirt Manwaring
kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Tue Apr 2 19:21:38 UTC 2013
Julie,
I'm making my assumptions based on all the blind dog users I know,
both in and out of the Federation. Of course there are plenty of
competent dog users out there and I didn't mean to imply that there
aren't. My point was only that most dog users I know, just like most
cane users I know, aren't all that competent, by the definition I gave
in my previous e-mail. The only difference is that many people I know
who apply to go to guide dog school (myself a couple years back
included), seem to be doing it because they aren't competent travelers
and they want something external to fix that internal issue. I have
nothing negative to say about competent dog users; more power to them
for choosing a travel aid which increases their independence. Sadly,
and this is not a criticism of the genuinely capable people who use
dogs, but most dog-users I know tend to use their dogs as a crutch
rather than a tool to increase independence. Am I making any sense?
Best,
Kirt
On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Desiree,
> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different
> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have
> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go
> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident
> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and
> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond
> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you
> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my
> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so
> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want,
> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to
> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as
> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any
> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I
> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with.
> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand
> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility
> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know,
> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and
> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel
> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't
> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I
> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's
> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student
> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such
> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I
> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I
> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all.
> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS
> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over
> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after
> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked
> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few
> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later
> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I
> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines
> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally
> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how
> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me,
> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good
> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would
> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted
> to.
> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't
> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a
> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something
> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd
> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I
> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or
> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring
> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking
> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or
> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding
> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind
> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and
> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to
> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently.
> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to
> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm
> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it
> differently than I do.
> All the best,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Kurt,
>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on
>> to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane
>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all
>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around
>> one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the
>> things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several
>> well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take
>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can
>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it.
>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for
>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane
>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing
>> cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog,
>> simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the
>> way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they
>> should.
>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created
>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the
>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand,
>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't
>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they
>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your
>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go
>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't
>> really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days.
>>
>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Justin,
>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced
>>> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home
>>> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all
>>> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there
>>> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think
>>> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really
>>> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not
>>> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm
>>> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so
>>> who am I to judge?
>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their
>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty
>>> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel
>>> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this
>>> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart
>>> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and
>>> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas.
>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often
>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see
>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to
>>> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just
>>> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler
>>> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if
>>> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin
>>> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of
>>> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so
>>> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where
>>> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most
>>> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good
>>> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering
>>> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water
>>> slides. :)
>>> Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Cane, dog, what works.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt
>>>> Manwaring
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>
>>>> Sarah,
>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get
>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I
>>>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next
>>>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your
>>>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I
>>>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to
>>>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted
>>>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training
>>>> center.)
>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over
>>>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers
>>>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who
>>>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the
>>>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else,
>>>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog
>>>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy
>>>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for
>>>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe
>>>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my
>>>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at
>>>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa.
>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible
>>>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework,
>>>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head
>>>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent
>>>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how
>>>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a
>>>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out
>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house.
>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised
>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Sarah
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the
>>>>> uncomfortable
>>>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park
>>>>> anyways.
>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2
>>>>> broke down
>>>>> and sy had to replace a wheel.
>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride.
>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate
>>>>> boarding
>>>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the
>>>>> operator if they
>>>>> don't know me already, and they let me on.
>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it!
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah,
>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just
>>>>> said, so I'll
>>>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is
>>>>> different, so
>>>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra
>>>>> perk and
>>>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other
>>>>> disability or
>>>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so
>>>>> farbeit from me
>>>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and
>>>>> I feel
>>>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line
>>>>> with
>>>>> everybody else, you should.
>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've
>>>>> caved in to
>>>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I
>>>>> don't always
>>>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe
>>>>> very
>>>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation"
>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line,
>>>>> and it
>>>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines
>>>>> before (if
>>>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have.
>>>>> That's
>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly
>>>>> skipped in
>>>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords),
>>>>> but
>>>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real
>>>>> need.
>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage
>>>>> of things
>>>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can,
>>>>> if we aren't
>>>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness.
>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back,
>>>>> isn't
>>>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we
>>>>> _have_ to have
>>>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal
>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger
>>>>> problems we
>>>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept
>>>>> cheerfully (or
>>>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement
>>>>> parks. I
>>>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay
>>>>> to cut in
>>>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative
>>>>> of a far,
>>>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that
>>>>> we are
>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary
>>>>> extended time for
>>>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is
>>>>> unnecessary),
>>>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for
>>>>> us, begging
>>>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and,
>>>>> yes,
>>>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're
>>>>> really saying?
>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a
>>>>> cane?
>>>>> Interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
>>>>> Public Relations Committee
>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Sarah
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the
>>>>> dog very
>>>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it
>>>>> while
>>>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4
>>>>> hours like
>>>>> everyone else."
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog
>>>>> user than
>>>>> to a cane user?
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
>>>>> Public Relations Committee
>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Sarah Meeks
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags.
>>>>> They are very
>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have
>>>>> a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton
>>>>> <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I
>>>>> went twice
>>>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my
>>>>> parents
>>>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my
>>>>> sister
>>>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents
>>>>> and not
>>>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were
>>>>> with me the
>>>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane.
>>>>> When I went
>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the
>>>>> Disney
>>>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it
>>>>> with me or
>>>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on
>>>>> water
>>>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean
>>>>> rides which
>>>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding
>>>>> cane you can
>>>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through
>>>>> the cane
>>>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something.
>>>>> It won't
>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster
>>>>> idea sounds
>>>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks
>>>>> get worried
>>>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any
>>>>> problems with
>>>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with
>>>>> the cane
>>>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for
>>>>> the
>>>>> second time and they were very accomodating.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sophie,
>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone
>>>>> if I was
>>>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by.
>>>>> I
>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds
>>>>> of "social"
>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up
>>>>> and to meet
>>>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know.
>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no
>>>>> problem, but I'll
>>>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible
>>>>> or folding
>>>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or
>>>>> big rides
>>>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the
>>>>> ride
>>>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those
>>>>> rides usually
>>>>> start and end at the same place.
>>>>> Waterslides
>>>>> and things are different though, obviously.
>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful
>>>>> bits I could
>>>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks
>>>>> myself over
>>>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I
>>>>> need to buy
>>>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine
>>>>> for the
>>>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not
>>>>> as my
>>>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding
>>>>> cane with
>>>>> a holster.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>> Bennett
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM
>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme
>>>>> parks, I
>>>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the
>>>>> exit
>>>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides
>>>>> are such
>>>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a
>>>>> walk away,
>>>>> from the place where you get off of the ride.
>>>>> My
>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that
>>>>> it would be
>>>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for
>>>>> this, because
>>>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just
>>>>> be
>>>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me
>>>>> back to
>>>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water
>>>>> rides?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cindy Bennett
>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative
>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington
>>>>>
>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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