[nabs-l] canes and water park rides
Carly Mihalakis
carlymih at comcast.net
Tue Apr 2 21:18:23 UTC 2013
Good afternoon, Kirt,
Such an excellent post! Must be the blastomite in us?
At a risk of presuming... CarAt 12:05 PM 4/2/2013, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>Desiree,
> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different
>people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have
>minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go
>to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident
>cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and
>knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond
>that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you
>like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my
>mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so
>forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want,
>regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to
>me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as
>well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any
>specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I
>know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with.
> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand
>that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility
>skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know,
>I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and
>following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel
>like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't
>have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I
>can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's
>fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student
>seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such
>and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I
>politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I
>changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all.
>With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS
>giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over
>there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after
>staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked
>back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few
>harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later
>I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I
>certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines
>are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally
>different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how
>incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me,
>it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good
>cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would
>probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted
>to.
> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't
>really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a
>good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something
>like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd
>like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I
>had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or
>earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring
>new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking
>everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or
>use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding
>new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind
>person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and
>personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to
>acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently.
> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to
>write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm
>coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it
>differently than I do.
> All the best,
>Kirt
>
>On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Kurt,
> > Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go on
> > to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane
> > user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all
> > that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been around
> > one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of the
> > things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around several
> > well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take
> > precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can
> > really get used to, even though I know they can't help it.
> > now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for
> > a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane
> > skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your existing
> > cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a dog,
> > simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along the
> > way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel they
> > should.
> > I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created
> > equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the
> > Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand,
> > those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't
> > surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they
> > shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your
> > dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go
> > to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs don't
> > really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days.
> >
> > On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Justin,
> >> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being forced
> >> to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave him home
> >> when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to work all
> >> that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I realize there
> >> are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say. Still, I think
> >> it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than because it really
> >> applied to me personally. Also, I should probably say that I'm not
> >> lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list into what I'm
> >> about to say because...well, I don't know most of you in real life, so
> >> who am I to judge?
> >> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their
> >> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have plenty
> >> of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't feel
> >> confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to me, this
> >> seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes my heart
> >> hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new places and
> >> experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in familiar areas.
> >> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often
> >> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see
> >> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough to
> >> convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm just
> >> saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable traveler
> >> already, having a dog won't magically make up for it. Sadly, many (if
> >> not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident travelers to begin
> >> with, so they got a dog instead of getting quality training. Of
> >> course, I know a whole bunch of cane users with the same problem, so
> >> it's certainly not the dog's fault if the handler can't get where
> >> he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying, and I'm sure most
> >> competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is that getting a good
> >> dog is no substitute for getting good training...but now I'm wondering
> >> what any of this has to do with riding rollercoasters and water
> >> slides. :)
> >> Best,
> >> Kirt
> >>
> >> On 3/31/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Cane, dog, what works.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt
> >>> Manwaring
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM
> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>
> >>> Sarah,
> >>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get
> >>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now. I
> >>> don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the next
> >>> time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have your
> >>> e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better than I
> >>> possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will sound to
> >>> anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back because I wanted
> >>> to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever to a training
> >>> center.)
> >>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up over
> >>> this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic travelers
> >>> who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible travelers who
> >>> happen to use canes instead. My point is simply that, having the
> >>> personality I do where I want to wait my turn like most everyone else,
> >>> and hearing the kinds of stories I do from Sarah and from most dog
> >>> users I'm acquainted with about how ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy
> >>> their dogs are, I'm pretty darn sure I made the right decision for
> >>> myself. This isn't a condemnation, much as some people might construe
> >>> it as one. Canes can certainly bring issues of their own...but my
> >>> straight cane won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at
> >>> home and take my folding cane instead, and vice-versa.
> >>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every possible
> >>> excuse I can to distract me from my political science homework,
> >>> because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile little head
> >>> right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock against competent
> >>> dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I just meant to say how
> >>> stories like this reinforce my belief that, in choosing not to get a
> >>> guide dog, I think I made the right decision for me.
> >>> Best,
> >>> Kirt
> >>>
> >>> On 4/1/13, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out
> >>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house.
> >>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised
> >>>> for more than an hour inr 2.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
> >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>>
> >>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances?
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>> Sarah
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM
> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the
> >>>> uncomfortable
> >>>> hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know me at the park
> >>>> anyways.
> >>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2
> >>>> broke down
> >>>> and sy had to replace a wheel.
> >>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride.
> >>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate
> >>>> boarding
> >>>> pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the
> >>>> operator if they
> >>>> don't know me already, and they let me on.
> >>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it!
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>>
> >>>> Sarah,
> >>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just
> >>>> said, so I'll
> >>>> do my best to be gentle. I know each person's situation is
> >>>> different, so
> >>>> I'm not judging every blind person who chooses to take that extra
> >>>> perk and
> >>>> cut through line; for all I know, there really is some other
> >>>> disability or
> >>>> legitimate need for that accommodation with some of us, so
> >>>> farbeit from me
> >>>> to condemn everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and
> >>>> I feel
> >>>> very strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line
> >>>> with
> >>>> everybody else, you should.
> >>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've
> >>>> caved in to
> >>>> family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it, I
> >>>> don't always
> >>>> measure up to my own standards here, but I nevertheless believe
> >>>> very
> >>>> passionately that we should not take "accommodation"
> >>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line,
> >>>> and it
> >>>> sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long lines
> >>>> before (if
> >>>> I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have.
> >>>> That's
> >>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly
> >>>> skipped in
> >>>> line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed afterwords),
> >>>> but
> >>>> accommodation is only real accommodation if it serves a real
> >>>> need.
> >>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage
> >>>> of things
> >>>> that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but it can,
> >>>> if we aren't
> >>>> careful, send totally the wrong message about blindness.
> >>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back,
> >>>> isn't
> >>>> entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we
> >>>> _have_ to have
> >>>> it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have equal
> >>>> responsibility.
> >>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger
> >>>> problems we
> >>>> face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to accept
> >>>> cheerfully (or
> >>>> at least grudgingly) if we really want equal access to amusement
> >>>> parks. I
> >>>> think, for many blind people, the attitude which says it's okay
> >>>> to cut in
> >>>> line even though we could wait like everyone else is indicative
> >>>> of a far,
> >>>> far larger problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that
> >>>> we are
> >>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We
> >>>> wouldn't
> >>>> phrase it that way...but when we're asking for unnecessary
> >>>> extended time for
> >>>> assignments (I'm not implying that all extended time is
> >>>> unnecessary),
> >>>> demanding the right to a dedicated person to take our notes for
> >>>> us, begging
> >>>> rehab for every piece of the newest and greatest technology and,
> >>>> yes,
> >>>> cutting in lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're
> >>>> really saying?
> >>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth.
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Kirt
> >>>>
> >>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a
> >>>> cane?
> >>>> Interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> >>>> Public Relations Committee
> >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>> Sarah
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM
> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>>
> >>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the
> >>>> dog very
> >>>> carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets it
> >>>> while
> >>>> you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say "Wait 4
> >>>> hours like
> >>>> everyone else."
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
> >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>>
> >>>> Sarah,
> >>>>
> >>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog
> >>>> user than
> >>>> to a cane user?
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> >>>> Public Relations Committee
> >>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> >>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>> Sarah Meeks
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM
> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>>
> >>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags.
> >>>> They are very
> >>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have
> >>>> a dog.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton
> >>>> <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I
> >>>> went twice
> >>>> as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or six and my
> >>>> parents
> >>>> also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice for both me and my
> >>>> sister
> >>>> was to hold onto our brother's stroller to keep with our parents
> >>>> and not
> >>>> get lost. My parents just gave me verbal direction and were
> >>>> with me the
> >>>> entire time, so there really wasn't a major need for a cane.
> >>>> When I went
> >>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the
> >>>> Disney
> >>>> staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep it
> >>>> with me or
> >>>> holding it and then giving it back to me when I got off, even on
> >>>> water
> >>>> rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of the Caribbean
> >>>> rides which
> >>>> start in one place and end at another. If you have a folding
> >>>> cane you can
> >>>> secure it folded with the loop and then put your wrist through
> >>>> the cane
> >>>> and the strap and just let it hang as you hold onto something.
> >>>> It won't
> >>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster
> >>>> idea sounds
> >>>> good, although some park personelle at other amusement parks
> >>>> get worried
> >>>> about it coming lose. Either way, you shouldn't have any
> >>>> problems with
> >>>> getting the ride people to bring you your cane at the ride exit.
> >>>>
> >>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with
> >>>> the cane
> >>>> too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to Disney for
> >>>> the
> >>>> second time and they were very accomodating.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Sophie,
> >>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone
> >>>> if I was
> >>>> traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by.
> >>>> I
> >>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds
> >>>> of "social"
> >>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up
> >>>> and to meet
> >>>> people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know.
> >>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no
> >>>> problem, but I'll
> >>>> confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A collapsible
> >>>> or folding
> >>>> cane seems more reasonable to me there. On rollercoasters or
> >>>> big rides
> >>>> like that, I've almost always just given my straight cane to the
> >>>> ride
> >>>> attendant and picked it up when the ride is done, but those
> >>>> rides usually
> >>>> start and end at the same place.
> >>>> Waterslides
> >>>> and things are different though, obviously.
> >>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful
> >>>> bits I could
> >>>> glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few water parks
> >>>> myself over
> >>>> the summer. Maybe this will finally give me the motivation I
> >>>> need to buy
> >>>> another collapsible or NFB folding cane. (I actually liked mine
> >>>> for the
> >>>> year or so it lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not
> >>>> as my
> >>>> primary cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions.
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Kirt
> >>>>
> >>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding
> >>>> cane with
> >>>> a holster.
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>> Cindy
> >>>> Bennett
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM
> >>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students
> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme
> >>>> parks, I
> >>>> typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area or on the
> >>>> exit
> >>>> side of a roller coaster platform. However, many water rides
> >>>> are such
> >>>> that you get on the ride in a different location, often quite a
> >>>> walk away,
> >>>> from the place where you get off of the ride.
> >>>> My
> >>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that
> >>>> it would be
> >>>> a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for
> >>>> this, because
> >>>> I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would just
> >>>> be
> >>>> annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to guide me
> >>>> back to
> >>>> these shoe holders that are often at the entrance of the ride.
> >>>>
> >>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water
> >>>> rides?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Cindy Bennett
> >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative
> >>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington
> >>>>
> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
> >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> ms2
> >>>> %40gmail
> >>>> .com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> e%4
> >>>> 0gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> t104
> >>>> %40gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Kaiti
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> %40gm
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> >>>>
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