[nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park rides
justin williams
justin.williams2 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 4 03:22:06 UTC 2013
You had a terrible instructor. Mean also. What GPS do you folks use?
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree Oudinot
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:34 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] guide dogs and their handlers was canes and water park
rides
Kurt,
I won't try to discredit your experiences, since personal experience is
about as subjective as anything can be. I'll explain how I came to the
conclusion I described above, though, which is equally as subjective.
When I was in high school, I had a mobility instructor who basically
glorified the idea of having a guide dog in the way that you and others have
described. She told me that a dog helps you become more confident in your
travel skills, makes you stick out less, etc. I was very skeptical about
everything she said, because, in my experience, whether you have a cane or
dog, you're considered "different" by society, and, therefore, sticking out
is just par for the course. So, even through her overzealous efforts to
convert me to believing that a dog is the ultimate answer to every travel
conundrum, she did tell me that no guide dog school would accept a person
whose cane skills weren't great. In hindsight, I believe she was saying all
this to put me down about my cane skills, which weren't that bad at all. my
problem has always been visualizing maps in my head, in fact. Mobility
instructors always plopped maps they made in front of me, turning them this
way and that to try to get me to understand how the streets would look once
you turned in a specific compass direction. That method of teaching confused
the hell out of me. So, she started to believe I was a hopeless case, I
guess. To this day, I still am primarily a route traveler, but I wonder
sometimes if I really have as much of a faulty brain as I was told (she
wanted to have me tested for learning disabilities, which my mom wouldn't
hear of) or if I just didn't learn about cardinal directions and maps in
such a way that I could understand. I should also point out that classes
like geometry always completely baffled me, and when I was in elementary
school, when we used to do geography and had to estimate how many miles or
kilometers one place on a map was from another, I failed miserably.
Anyway, one day this mobility instructor decided to do a guide dog
simulation with me, to help convert me to her way of thinking, I suppose. I
held onto a harness, and without any warning, she started flat-out running.
When I asked her why, she said it was because all guide dogs and their
handlers walk at a brisk pace. Fine, but I don't think they sprint as if
they're trying to win the 50-yard dash! After I pointed this out, she got
pretty snippy with me. Snide remarks about my travel skills became the order
of the day from then on.
So, what this taught me was that one had to live up to a high standard if
they wanted to get a dog. I didn't want one, but, perhaps mistakenly, I
believed this to be the case. This is why it was interesting for me to read
your perspective, and watch this discussion unfold, because I honestly
thought that all guide dog handlers were competent and confident travelers.
Of course, as with everything else, there would have to be exceptions, and I
did know of one lady in particular who worked her dog practically until the
day it died, despite the dog developing severe arthritis. But, as i said, I
thought that was so far out of the norm that I chalked it up to the lady
being, shall we say, not a very nice person, as opposed to being so set in
her ways that maybe she felt unable to travel without the dog she had come
to depend on.
On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Desiree,
> I've noticed that "stellar" means different things to different
> people. While I don't doubt that the top guide dog schools have
> minimum standards for their applicants, I've seen plenty of friends go
> to guide dog schools (even seeing eye and geb), who were not confident
> cane travelers. Yes, they could cross familiar streets safely and
> knew their way around the places they knew well, but nothing beyond
> that. For me, and you can certainly disagree intelligently if you
> like, but that's only a small part of solid travel skills. In my
> mind, mobility isn't just about getting from point A to B to C and so
> forth. It's about going wherever you want, whenever you want,
> regardless of if you know the area already. Routes are nice but, to
> me, competent travelers should be able to make their own routes, as
> well as travel wherever they like and not necessarily be bound by any
> specific route. That's something that I don't think most dog users I
> know or, for that matter, most blind people are comfortable with.
> I'll illustrate with a few examples; I want all of you to understand
> that I'm not trying to say that I have these super awesome mobility
> skills because, compared to lots of competent blind travelers I know,
> I still have a long way to go. I'm not great at memorizing maps and
> following set routes, especially in big buildings, but I still feel
> like I get where I want to go when I want to be there, and I don't
> have to rely on someone to take me or show me around (even though I
> can see how some very competent people would do that, and that's
> fine.) But, just this last week, I was in Las Vegas for a student
> seminar and a few of my new friends invited me to go to dinner at such
> and such a restaurant across the street and a couple blocks down. I
> politely declined because I felt tired but, about a half hour later, I
> changed my mind and decided it was better to go late than not at all.
> With only the restaurant name and address as reference, and my GPS
> giving me periodic announcements of my rough location, I walked over
> there without any trouble and had a great dinner. Incidentally, after
> staying there for a little while I noticed how tired I was so I walked
> back to the hotel by myself and, aside from being approached by a few
> harmless drunk people, had no problem whatsoever. A couple days later
> I spent a few hours walking up and down the Las Vegas strip (an area I
> certainly was not familiar with at all), discovered that slot machines
> are a phenominal waste of money, and walked back to my hotel a totally
> different way than I came, just for the hell of it. It's sad how
> incredible and amazing most people would think that was and, to me,
> it's even sadder that most blind people I know (even most with good
> cane skills and the ability to follow routes to the letter), would
> probably not even try to do something like that, even if they wanted
> to.
> Now, of course you can say that most people, blind or sighted, don't
> really spend that much time in unfamiliar environments and that's a
> good point. Still, having the ability and the freedom to do something
> like that, even though I don't get the chance near as often as I'd
> like, has been an enormous confidence booster for me once I realized I
> had that ability, even though there is really nothing special or
> earth-shattering about my travel skills. I'm aware I like exploring
> new places more than most people, blind or sighted, and I'm not asking
> everybody to agree with me. You don't have to be a Federationist, or
> use a long straight cane or have this huge passion for always finding
> new places like I do in order to be an independent, competent blind
> person. Still, I can't deny that my own individual philosophy and
> personality has shaped my opinions on the matter, and I have to
> acknowledge that I hold to those opinions passionately and vehemently.
> Anyways, my jaws demo is going to run out any second, so I have to
> write fast. :) At least, I hopek, you can understand where I'm
> coming from on this, as I try to do with the people who see it
> differently than I do.
> All the best,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/2/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Kurt,
>> Your experience with guide dog handlers is interesting. Before I go
>> on to my main point, I just want to say that I, too, am a proud cane
>> user, and I never intend on getting a dog. I never cared for dogs all
>> that much, even when I was a kid. Let's just say that I've been
>> around one too many poorly trained dogs in my lifetime, and some of
>> the things they do are frankly disgusting. I've also been around
>> several well-behaved guide dogs, but my childhood experiences do take
>> precedence. That, and dogs smell, and that's not something I can
>> really get used to, even though I know they can't help it.
>> now, to my point. I was always under the impression that in order for
>> a person to even be accepted into a guide dog school, their cane
>> skills had to be stellar. I've always heard about how if your
>> existing cane and route traveling skills are subpar, you won't get a
>> dog, simple as that. While they would hone a few rusty skills along
>> the way, if time permits, they can't do everything, nor do they feel
>> they should.
>> I guess, like everything else, not all guide dog schools are created
>> equal. Most people who have said this to me have either gone to the
>> Seeing Eye in New Jersey or GEB in New York. From what I understand,
>> those are the top two guide dog schools, anyway, so it wouldn't
>> surprise me that their standards were way up there, not that they
>> shouldn't be. Logic dictates that you shouldn't be able to take your
>> dog everywhere you need to go. Dogs get sick, or maybe you want to go
>> to a loud concert, or, yes, an amusement park. I agree that dogs
>> don't really belong there, especially on particularly brutal summer days.
>>
>> On 4/2/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Justin,
>>> Exactly. For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, but being
>>> forced to take my dog wherever I went, or not being able to leave
>>> him home when the situation seemed to warrant it, doesn't appear to
>>> work all that well. I'm going to make a generalization, and I
>>> realize there are plenty of acceptions to what I'm about to say.
>>> Still, I think it's worth mentioning, if for no other reason than
>>> because it really applied to me personally. Also, I should probably
>>> say that I'm not lumping Sarah or anybody else specific on this list
>>> into what I'm about to say because...well, I don't know most of you
>>> in real life, so who am I to judge?
>>> Still, I've seen lots of blind people who get dogs because their
>>> mobility skills aren't up to par and they want a cure. I have
>>> plenty of friends and acquaintances who use dogs because they don't
>>> feel confident in their ability to travel without them; sadly, to
>>> me, this seems the rule more than the exception. It kind of makes
>>> my heart hurt a little bit when I see friends shy away from new
>>> places and experiences just because their dogs prefer to stay in
familiar areas.
>>> Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be what happens more often
>>> than not. I'm not saying a dog isn't a legitimate option; I can see
>>> the advantages of traveling with one and, while they aren't enough
>>> to convince me to become a dog user, they are certainly real. I'm
>>> just saying that, if someone isn't a confident and comfortable
>>> traveler already, having a dog won't magically make up for it.
>>> Sadly, many (if not most) guide dog users I know weren't confident
>>> travelers to begin with, so they got a dog instead of getting
>>> quality training. Of course, I know a whole bunch of cane users
>>> with the same problem, so it's certainly not the dog's fault if the
>>> handler can't get where he/she needs to go. I guess all I'm saying,
>>> and I'm sure most competent dog users will wholeheartedly agree, is
>>> that getting a good dog is no substitute for getting good
>>> training...but now I'm wondering what any of this has to do with
>>> riding rollercoasters and water slides. :)
>>> Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Cane, dog, what works.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt
>>>> Manwaring
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:44 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>
>>>> Sarah,
>>>> I know I'm going to spark an age-old debate, and possibly get
>>>> reprimanded for being off-topic, but I don't really care right now.
>>>> I don't mean this condescendingly or judgmentally...but, Sarah, the
>>>> next time someone asks me why I'm not a dog user, I want to have
>>>> your e-mails on hand because they would make my case far better
>>>> than I possibly could. (and, yes, I'm aware how ironic this will
>>>> sound to anybody who remembers the stir I created a while back
>>>> because I wanted to get a dog and bring him...or her...or whatever
>>>> to a training
>>>> center.)
>>>> And, please, before anybody gets their knickers all twisted up
>>>> over this, I'm definitely not anti-dog. I know some fantastic
>>>> travelers who happen to be dog users; I also know some terrible
>>>> travelers who happen to use canes instead. My point is simply
>>>> that, having the personality I do where I want to wait my turn like
>>>> most everyone else, and hearing the kinds of stories I do from
>>>> Sarah and from most dog users I'm acquainted with about how
>>>> ansy/skiddish/uncomfortable/needy their dogs are, I'm pretty darn
>>>> sure I made the right decision for myself. This isn't a
>>>> condemnation, much as some people might construe it as one. Canes
>>>> can certainly bring issues of their own...but my straight cane
>>>> won't have a panic attack if I decide to leave it at home and take my
folding cane instead, and vice-versa.
>>>> Anyways, sorry for the rambling...I'm trying to find every
>>>> possible excuse I can to distract me from my political science
>>>> homework, because Plato's Republic is really hurting my fragile
>>>> little head right now. :) I really didn't mean this as a knock
>>>> against competent dog-users or, really, against Sarah at all. I
>>>> just meant to say how stories like this reinforce my belief that,
>>>> in choosing not to get a guide dog, I think I made the right decision
for me.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 4/1/13, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> i can't leave Wizard hoc alone when I go to parks he freaks out
>>>>> when I leave him for a few hours to go to a friend's house.
>>>>> Besides his trainers told me to none leave him alone unsupervised
>>>>> for more than an hour inr 2.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:08:50 -0700
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you shouldn't bring Wizard under those circumstances?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:32 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not making my guide dog wait 4 hours for one ride in the
>>>>> uncomfortable hot weather. Besides, all the ride operators know
>>>>> me at the park anyways.
>>>>> I never waited in line before I did for like 2 hours because X2
>>>>> broke down and sy had to replace a wheel.
>>>>> But I'm not making Wizard wait in line er 4 hours for each ride.
>>>>> It's like 2 or 4 hours for each ride and I bought an immediate
>>>>> boarding pass. All I have to do is show the paper I bought to the
>>>>> operator if they don't know me already, and they let me on.
>>>>> People are just jealous because they can't do it!
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:18:14 -0600
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah,
>>>>> I know you're going to get a lot of flack for what you just
>>>>> said, so I'll do my best to be gentle. I know each person's
>>>>> situation is different, so I'm not judging every blind person who
>>>>> chooses to take that extra perk and cut through line; for all I
>>>>> know, there really is some other disability or legitimate need for
>>>>> that accommodation with some of us, so farbeit from me to condemn
>>>>> everyone wholesale for making that choice. Still, and I feel very
>>>>> strongly about this, if you are capable of waiting in line with
>>>>> everybody else, you should.
>>>>> Period. In the past, there have been a few times where I've caved
>>>>> in to family pressure and broken my own rule; I'm not proud of it,
>>>>> I don't always measure up to my own standards here, but I
>>>>> nevertheless believe very passionately that we should not take
>>>>> "accommodation"
>>>>> where we do not need it. If you had no real need to cut in line,
>>>>> and it sounds like you didn't if you've been able to wait in long
>>>>> lines before (if I'm wrong please forgive me), you shouldn't have.
>>>>> That's
>>>>> my opinion, I'm not trying to be harsh because I've certainly
>>>>> skipped in line a few times before (and invariably felt ashamed
>>>>> afterwords), but accommodation is only real accommodation if it
>>>>> serves a real need.
>>>>> We have enough real needs already to go around taking advantage
>>>>> of things that just aren't necessary. Not only is it a waste but
>>>>> it can, if we aren't careful, send totally the wrong message about
>>>>> blindness.
>>>>> Our reputation as people who take and take, without giving back,
>>>>> isn't entirely unjustified. If we want to be treated equally, we
>>>>> _have_ to have it both ways. If we want equal treatment, we have
>>>>> equal responsibility.
>>>>> Much as this might seem menial, or irrelevant to the larger
>>>>> problems we face, waiting in lines is a drudgery that we ought to
>>>>> accept cheerfully (or at least grudgingly) if we really want equal
>>>>> access to amusement parks. I think, for many blind people, the
>>>>> attitude which says it's okay to cut in line even though we could
>>>>> wait like everyone else is indicative of a far, far larger
>>>>> problem. I am, of course, referring to the idea that we are
>>>>> entitled to special treatment and superior, not equal access. We
>>>>> wouldn't phrase it that way...but when we're asking for
>>>>> unnecessary extended time for assignments (I'm not implying that
>>>>> all extended time is unnecessary), demanding the right to a
>>>>> dedicated person to take our notes for us, begging rehab for every
>>>>> piece of the newest and greatest technology and, yes, cutting in
>>>>> lines at amusement parks...isn't that what we're really saying?
>>>>> Just my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/1/13, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> So they let you cut through the line with a dog, but not with a
>>>>> cane?
>>>>> Interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
>>>>> Public Relations Committee
>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Sarah
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 9:40 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Because with my dog, they let me right on, and they watch the dog
>>>>> very carefully even when someone else is holding it so nobody pets
>>>>> it while you're on the ride. With a cane, they will just say
>>>>> "Wait 4 hours like everyone else."
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 21:26:25 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just curious: how is Six Flags more accommodating to a guide dog
>>>>> user than to a cane user?
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
>>>>> Public Relations Committee
>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Sarah Meeks
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:56 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> My best amusement park experience has always been Six Flags.
>>>>> They are very
>>>>> accommodating. There you are more accommodating now that I have
>>>>> a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Kaiti Shelton
>>>>> <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yay for Disney! they were by far my best park experience. I
>>>>> went twice as a little kid. The first time I went I was five or
>>>>> six and my parents also had a baby in a stroller, so the practice
>>>>> for both me and my sister was to hold onto our brother's stroller
>>>>> to keep with our parents and not get lost. My parents just gave
>>>>> me verbal direction and were with me the entire time, so there
>>>>> really wasn't a major need for a cane.
>>>>> When I went
>>>>> again as an older kid though, I did have a folding cane and the
>>>>> Disney staff was very good about either showing me tricks to keep
>>>>> it with me or holding it and then giving it back to me when I got
>>>>> off, even on water rides like Splash Mountain and the Pirates of
>>>>> the Caribbean rides which start in one place and end at another.
>>>>> If you have a folding cane you can secure it folded with the loop
>>>>> and then put your wrist through the cane and the strap and just
>>>>> let it hang as you hold onto something.
>>>>> It won't
>>>>> flop around as much as the telescopic cane. Also, the holster
>>>>> idea sounds good, although some park personelle at other
>>>>> amusement parks get worried about it coming lose. Either way,
>>>>> you shouldn't have any problems with getting the ride people to
>>>>> bring you your cane at the ride exit.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, Universal Studios was excellent about working with
>>>>> the cane too. I went there in the same vacation that I went to
>>>>> Disney for the second time and they were very accomodating.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/1/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sophie,
>>>>> I'm one of those random oddballs who would probably go alone if
>>>>> I was traveling, and there was a really cool theme park near by.
>>>>> I
>>>>> know it's not for everyone, but occasionally doing those kinds
>>>>> of "social"
>>>>> things by myself is fun for me; both to keep my confidence up
>>>>> and to meet people that I otherwise wouldn't get to know.
>>>>> Anyways, I've taken my straight cane to theme parks no problem,
>>>>> but I'll confess I haven't tried a water park with it yet. A
>>>>> collapsible or folding cane seems more reasonable to me there.
>>>>> On rollercoasters or big rides like that, I've almost always just
>>>>> given my straight cane to the ride attendant and picked it up
>>>>> when the ride is done, but those rides usually start and end at
>>>>> the same place.
>>>>> Waterslides
>>>>> and things are different though, obviously.
>>>>> Basically, I've been reading this thread to see what useful
>>>>> bits I could glean from it, as I'll probably be going to a few
>>>>> water parks myself over the summer. Maybe this will finally give
>>>>> me the motivation I need to buy another collapsible or NFB
>>>>> folding cane. (I actually liked mine for the year or so it
>>>>> lasted, but I used it sparingly and certainly not as my primary
>>>>> cane.) Thanks, all, for the help and suggewstions.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/31/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I would where a belt around my bathing suit, and Use a folding
>>>>> cane with a holster.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Cindy Bennett
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:25 PM
>>>>> To: National Asociation of Blind Students
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] canes and water park rides
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> This summer, I am going to a water park. When I go to theme
>>>>> parks, I typically store my cane somewhere outside the ride area
>>>>> or on the exit side of a roller coaster platform. However, many
>>>>> water rides are such that you get on the ride in a different
>>>>> location, often quite a walk away, from the place where you get
>>>>> off of the ride.
>>>>> My
>>>>> cane is too long to fit in many inner tubes, and I doubt that it
>>>>> would be a safe thing to bring along especially if it came loose.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am wondering if a telescoping cane would be the best for this,
>>>>> because I know that many water rides have shoe holders. It would
>>>>> just be annoying, because I would have to rely on someone to
>>>>> guide me back to these shoe holders that are often at the
>>>>> entrance of the ride.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what are your suggestions for storing a cane during water
>>>>> rides?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cindy Bennett
>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students Legislative
>>>>> Coordinator: National Federation of the Blind of Washington
>>>>>
>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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