[nabs-l] in defense of the Google car
justin williams
justin.williams2 at gmail.com
Sun Apr 14 02:12:09 UTC 2013
Testify
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:50 PM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Cc: setoth96 at gmail.com
Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car
Ashley,
Let me give you an example of what Suzanne, Sophie and I (among others) have
been saying. You have previously mentioned on this list that you live in
northern Virginia, near Fairfax and Falls Church. It is true that your part
of Virginia is relatively close to Washington, DC, and that many people who
work in the DC metro area live in Fairfax County. However, your public
transportation options are limited. I know this because I live about an hour
away from Washington and consequently know some people who work there, both
blind and sighted.
You have the DC metro system. However, there are a few problems with this
option. Firstly, you must get to your nearest metro station before you can
even consider taking the metro. If it's not in walking distance, how are you
going to do that? Will you not need a sighted driver, a public bus, or some
other form of transportation provided by somebody else? You will. So, you
run into the same problem of relying on somebody else to provide
transportation. With the Google car, this would not be an issue- in fact,
you wouldn't even need to take the metro. Secondly, the metro can be very
crowded. This can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, you have people
who can give you directions if needed. However, this can make the trip take
longer and be more of a hassle. In short, if you're in any kind of hurry,
don't take the metro--not in DC.
There is also the option of the public bus. However, as with the metro,
there are two problems with this: time and availability. As Suzanne has
repeatedly reminded us, trips which would only take 10 or 15 minutes by car
can take hours by public bus or subway. There is also the issue of
availability. In urban cities, this is not much of a problem, as the bus
system covers everything within the city limits in most cases. However, the
limitation of the city limits can present problems if you live in a suburb
of the city in question. Fairfax County is the biggest county in Virginia.
So, if you live in a suburb of the city of Fairfax (and many people do,) you
run the risk of living in an area which is not covered by the city's bus
system. Why do you think there is so much traffic on the roads of most major
cities? It's because "Ol' Sighty" doesn't want to deal with the hassle of
public transportation. Is this self-serving? Maybe, but I don't think so. To
me, "ol' Sighty" is weighing the pros and cons of his options to get from
Point A to Point B, and deciding that a car would serve his needs best.
Then there's paratransit. This option can present the same problems as the
others, but on a larger scale. Whereas you are only dealing with the time it
takes a public bus to get from its starting point to its destination, a
paratransit van might show up hours late to the pickup location if it shows
up at all. If this happens (and it often does to countless blind people,)
the blind person relying on paratransit is left stranded until the van shows
up. There is an NFB song about this which comes to mind. Entitled "The
Paratransit Song," it goes like this:
Para-transit, para-transit, para-transit, I did ride.
You have hurt my heart and soul, but most of all you hurt my pride.
Had a rendezvous with my sweetheart set the time for half past eight.
By the time it finally got there, it was almost three hours late.
Then the driver when arriving took away my long white cane.
So I missed a step or two. Now I'm in a searing pain.
So I boarded paratransit looking for an empty seat.
Then another person's wheelchair caught and tripped me off my feet.
Though my port of destination only was a mile away, Yet I had to cross the
Interstate, and the driver took all day.
My return trip I requested from a clerk who could not write.
They forgot where they had left me, so I camped out overnight.
Para-transit, para-transit, you have left me sad and blue.
For the sweetheart whom I once loved is now seeing someone new.
Oh this means of transportation has caused me such a fuss I'll give up on
para-transit, and I'll ride the public bus.
Yes, this is probably a hypothetical and extreme story. However, it raises
some important points in the debate we have been having on this list. Should
we have to be subjected to stories like the one related in the song? Must we
settle for the unreliability of the subway or the public bus? We have had to
settle for this for so long now, but now the technology exists which will
allow us to have the same freedom in choosing our mode of transportation as
our sighted peers. Yet, some of us are saying that you would rather take the
bus. That is your opinion and your choice, and I respect that. If "Ol'
Sighty" has the option to take the public bus instead of driving a car, we
should have that choice as well, although I disagree with it. But this
doesn't mean we shouldn't have the choice. We in the Federation believe that
we can and ought to compete on terms of equality with our sighted peers. If
technology allows us to compete on equal terms with "Ol' Sighty" in one more
area of life, I say we should take advantage of that opportunity!
Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
Public Relations Committee
Maryland Association of Blind Students
Phone: (443) 547-2409
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:42 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
Public transit serves our need just fine? Really? First of all I don't want
to settle for just fine! Apparently you have not really tried to go to many
places!!! Because I have lived in major cities San Diego, North Chicago
suburb and Phoenix and they are plenty of places the the bus does not even
go near not to mention I don't want to take 3 hours to get somewhere. I want
a life that is not 5, 6,7 hours a day a a freaking bus!! I have zero desire
to ever live in the actual down town of a city.
I have had to take en entire day off from work to go to a 15 min doctor
appointment because of how long it took on the bus and it was a 25 min car
drive.
I have ridden the bus for 47 years and I am tired of it! I still hate it.
How about grocery shopping? I don't want to be limited to what I can carry
walking to the bus stop and then walking form the stop to my house.
I want to be free to go where I when when I want and for how long I want and
ALONE if I want
On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis
<carlymih at comcast.net>wrote:
> Good moring,
> Ol' Sighty does a lot of weird shit, so I don't think you oughtta
> airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving
> project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs just
fine.
> Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be
> frivolous, and self serving, then have fun!
> Carlycarlymih at comcast.net
>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing
>> list < nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> Evening, Josh,
>>
>> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a
>> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and arguably
>> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way
>> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation...
>> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters
>> within a big picture? After all, people are suffering, even dying in
>> our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and
>> sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling
>> wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed to oppress us grind on,
>> unabated.
>> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel?
>> Have a good day!
>> Carly
>>
>> Hello,
>> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to
>> events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few,
>> although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think
>> it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but
>> without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks
>> the sighted drivers constantly face.
>> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my
>> mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my
>> opinion.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum
>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can
>> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this
>> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently.
>>
>> Chris Nusbaum
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread,
>>
>> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement
>> without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we
>> don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say
>> the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving
>> blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway?
>> 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum
>> wrote:
>>
>> Kirt,
>>
>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we
>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all
>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes.
>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by
>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which
>> someone reposted here mentioned.
>>
>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't
>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such
>> as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural
>> town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation
>> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of
>> these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the
>> reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the
>> Google car might give me in this area.
>>
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>> Chris Nusbaum
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> Patrick,
>> If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it. I hope you're
>> right; we'll have to wait and see. I guess my only point was that
>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly
>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able
>> to drive. Where the google car is now is probably comparable to
>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the
>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know"
>> were probably
>> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was
>> viable to the general public.
>> And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have
>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing.
>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close
>> attention in the event something goes wrong.
>> Carley,
>> I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about
>> driving. In most places it is probably more efficient than public
>> transport. Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to
>> mind, for instance. Still, living where I do now, I would totally
>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and
>> safe, at least most of the time. That being said, it's far enough
>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and
>> trains any time soon.
>> Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 4/10/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Count me in. I'm driving. No wait; not driving, drivin.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org<nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nab
>> s-l-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>> >]
>> On Behalf Of Carly
>> Mihalakis
>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National
>> Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> Hi, List,
>>
>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem
>> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow
>> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap
>> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever
>> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal
>> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or
>> friend/driver cannot?
>> Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a
>> communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty!
>> So no, on the car!
>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote:
>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major
>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in
>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to
>> drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled.
>> Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a
>> self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's
>> safe for us and for others on the road.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> Hello,
>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already
>> going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is
>> nothing wrong with backing both cars.
>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own
>> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a
>> screen reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a
>> screen reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is
>> going mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the
>> same if Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started
>> making units that used Jaws and no screen.
>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most
>> common tasks.
>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very
>> little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long
>> driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till
>> the road could be completely entered into the database.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sophie Trist
>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a
>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them
>> to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> Hello,
>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into
>> account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out,
>> but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon.
>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could
>> even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take
>> the challenge.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Justin Young
>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for
>> individuals to purchase in Nevada? Sounds like a very interesting
>> project.
>>
>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett <kingettr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads
>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the
>> nation's first autonomous vehicle license.
>>
>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in
>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the
>> Nevada DMV said in a statement.
>>
>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the
>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went
>> into effect on March 1, 2012.
>>
>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors,
>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven
>> cars to help navigate, according to the company.
>>
>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its
>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor
>> and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun.
>>
>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and
>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the
>> company.
>>
>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director
>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to
>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the
>> public, the DMV said.
>>
>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other
>> states, including Google's home state of California.
>>
>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error.
>> Through
>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous
>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly
>> and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex
>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car
>> legislation.
>>
>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in
>> Nevada, the DMV said.
>>
>>
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