[nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
Littlefield, Tyler
tyler at tysdomain.com
Tue Apr 16 02:05:21 UTC 2013
Hello Kirt,
I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a statement
I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; I'm
not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to
get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it.
Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that
helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when it
comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services
than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest
or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position.
when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; they
are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra
work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to
do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to say,
the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions
and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't require
we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get
the equipment.
On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> Hi, all,
> I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal
> insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but
> just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person
> evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults,
> either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we
> behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want
> respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve
> it.
> Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually
> substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable
> purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of
> blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering
> blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue
> when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not;
> at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation
> leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got
> people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation
> had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's
> something worth thinking about.
> Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price
> became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang
> thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say.
> I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things
> other people have said also.
> Peter,
> I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I
> say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if
> you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't
> think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do
> things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several
> years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly
> expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six
> figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most
> working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to
> be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of
> money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't
> working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the
> barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social
> security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that
> sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all
> the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are
> employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just
> like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes
> to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car
> payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a
> diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How
> is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to
> afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's
> released to the public?
> Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices
> for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market.
> Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living
> on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them.
> Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person
> will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet.
> Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> Hello Arielle and everyone,
>>
>> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to take
>> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a blind
>> person to drive independently why should we be left out.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>>
>> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and
>> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well
>> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits
>> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving
>> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and
>> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being
>> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could
>> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other
>> situations.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist <sweetpeareader at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other
>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving
>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people
>>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago.
>>> The car should be out by 2016.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie
>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never
>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard,
>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've
>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago.
>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just
>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more
>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another
>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution
>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one
>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or
>>> electricity?
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Wow, Peter!
>>> Like minds huh?
>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago!
>>> Thanks, Joshua
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter
>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone,
>>>
>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>>>
>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this
>>> technology
>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the
>>> track at
>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all
>>> ready been
>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals
>>> have driven
>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to
>>> unite and
>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone
>>> else to
>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is
>>> controllable by a
>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is
>>> protected. We
>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom
>>> and
>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble
>>> initiative.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>>
>>> Amen, Patrick!
>>>
>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
>>> Public Relations Committee
>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Patrick Molloy
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree
>>> with you.
>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way
>>> to go,
>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith
>>> in the NFB
>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw
>>> the thing!
>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away
>>> from the
>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially
>>> disappears. I'm not
>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling
>>> myself with
>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive
>>> and, with
>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey!
>>> If you want
>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit,
>>> more power to
>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy
>>> that many
>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to
>>> why blind
>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about
>>> the potential
>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears
>>> more or less
>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for
>>> us blind
>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If
>>> I decide
>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and
>>> found it
>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel
>>> that we as
>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car
>>> in one way
>>> or another.
>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind
>>> people
>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're
>>> tired of
>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer
>>> practice! If
>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we
>>> should have
>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues.
>>> Separate is not
>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may
>>> think it
>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly
>>> to at
>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive
>>> like our
>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us
>>> self-serving,
>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they
>>> can take a
>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a
>>> bus if we
>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've
>>> got time to
>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have
>>> the same
>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come
>>> the
>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted
>>> people.
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it
>>> seems
>>> like you
>>>
>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd
>>> buy
>>> one if
>>>
>>> given a choice.
>>>
>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden
>>> paratransit
>>>
>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness.
>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient
>>> and safe.
>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you
>>> want
>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better.
>>>
>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to
>>> override the
>>>
>>> car.
>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car
>>> is
>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk.
>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in
>>> front of
>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the
>>> speed
>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians
>>> to
>>> walk, rode rage, and
>>>
>>> drunk drivers.
>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to
>>> override
>>> it when obstacles arise.
>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the
>>> brakes due
>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who
>>> unexpectedly
>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed
>>> to,
>>> pedestrians who
>>>
>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk
>>> signal
>>> is on
>>>
>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and
>>> distracted drivers on cell phones.
>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with
>>> eyes
>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act
>>> upon
>>> unexpected hazards.
>>>
>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right
>>> ahead and
>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I
>>> just
>>> don't want to
>>>
>>> be on the road with you.
>>>
>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind
>>> people,
>>> but we
>>>
>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money.
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with
>>> buses I
>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I
>>> need
>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time
>>> to get
>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the
>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of
>>> Dayton's bus
>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and
>>> east-west, but
>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell
>>> you if
>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to
>>> roll
>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than
>>> boomerang
>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again
>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it
>>> the
>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider
>>> it
>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and
>>> other
>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car,
>>> which
>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended
>>> license, or
>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other
>>> blind
>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything
>>> self-serving
>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually
>>> think not
>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less
>>> than
>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people
>>> can
>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car
>>> would be
>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could
>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and
>>> the high
>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient,
>>> so why
>>> not do it?
>>>
>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :)
>>>
>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett <kingettr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be
>>> self
>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes
>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more,
>>> depending on
>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long.
>>> Here
>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee
>>> FL
>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were.
>>> So
>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I
>>> have
>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving
>>> along
>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and
>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that
>>> I'm
>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will
>>> allowfor
>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time,
>>> thus
>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other
>>> non
>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat
>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL!
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
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--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
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He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
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