[nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
Jamie Principato
blackbyrdfly at gmail.com
Tue Apr 16 05:01:58 UTC 2013
Why couldn't an autonomous car drive one spouse to work, then drive itself
home to pick up the other spouse? It really changes the nature of the game
when the car can drive itself, and I think in nearly all of these arguments
we are forgetting this very important detail.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I found the money issue to be of the utmost concern... we can sit and
> watch how both of these projects pan out, whether individually or if
> Google does decide to try and work with the NFB in some way to get the
> best of both prototypes, but the money is the biggest issue for me. I
> was so excited when the KNFB reader came out, but there was no way
> that I could have justified to myself, much less my parents, that the
> cost was worth the result. When you compare the price of the KNFB
> reader to most smart phones now, an IPhone seems like an investment.
> Perhaps it isn't totally fair to make that statement since smart
> phones weren't in full use like they are now at the time of the KNFB
> reader's hayday, but still the price was outrageous regardless.
>
> I would love to have this kind of car, but as Kirt said I don't even
> know how even in the best of circumstances I would be able to swallow
> the stickershock. Even if I get married and my husband and I were
> both able to bring in at least 60,000 a year, I'd have a hard time
> putting 6 figures down on one car. Compare that to the average
> sighted family who might have two or three cars... my mom, dad, and
> sister each have a car for my family and make that kind of money, but
> each car is from the 90's and was bought used. I don't think that the
> google cars would be very affordable at all unless Google were to
> charge for the system on top of the car dealer's cost. Now, if I were
> to buy one of these cars with the price only being about the same as
> the car plus a really nice laptop and some insurance for the system
> somewhere around 5 grand or less, that would be a little more
> understandable, even though it would still hurt the bank account.
>
> Arielle also brought up the idea of family's incurring costs. Not
> only would these costs possibly hinder families from buying the cars
> at all, but even if a family were to be in the position where they
> could afford a car it still wouldn't be equal to a sighted family.
> Just using my family as an example again, my mom and dad each drive
> themselves separately to work in their individual cars, and my sister
> has her own to get to school and back. If a blind couple were to buy
> a car, it might still l leave one of the two of them waiting for a bus
> or calling a cab, especially in situations where offices open at
> different times. E.G. my dad starts work at 7:30, and my mom doesn't
> start usually till 9:00. Had they been in this position they would
> have had to docide whether or not the person who needs to get to work
> first should take the car and drop the second person off at their
> office early, if they can even get in before it opens, or if the
> person who starts later should drop the earlier person off and drive
> back home. Either way, it would actually involve extra driving around
> back and forth, and it would also cause problems later on (say if dad
> gets off of work at 3:30 because he started first, but mom works till
> 5:00 and can't leave to pick him up). In order for this to truly work
> I think we would need to have prices at least somewhat similar to what
> the sighted pay for their cars; otherwise, it would just be a really
> expensive hassle in some cases. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome
> prospect and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out, but now
> that I think about it more I'm having a hard time justifying the
> future issues that might be byproducts of any custom-made self-driving
> car.
>
> On 4/15/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tyler,
> > I see where you're coming from. That's why I said "I don't know."
> > I imagine goolge would have developed their car regardless, as it's
> > not even technology that's meant primarily for blind people, but I'm
> > not sure they would be working directly with organizations like NFB
> > and ACB without the NFB blind driver challenge. I didn't mean to
> > imply that google is only developing this car because it gives them a
> > PR boost to help blind people; I just meant that, by getting blind
> > people involved in the conversation, the NFB probably gave us a seat
> > at the table, so to speak.
> > Best,
> > Kirt
> >
> > On 4/15/13, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> >> Hello Kirt,
> >> I've not been following this topic very close, but you made a statement
> >> I don't really agree with. Maybe you were just running with an idea; I'm
> >> not really sure, but you mentioned the idea that if Google were not to
> >> get the publicity for their car they wouldn't do it.
> >>
> >> Google as a company supports lots of free open-source software that
> >> helps people every day. Sure, they are around to make money, but when it
> >> comes down to it they do a lot more for people who use their services
> >> than most. Google has not done anything in the past 5 years to suggest
> >> or even hint at the idea that they would take such a position.
> >>
> >> when it comes down to it, we need companies like Google and Apple; they
> >> are allowing us to use their phones by default without to much extra
> >> work. Android has a ways to go for sure, but they really don't have to
> >> do what they're doing and it's an awesome alternative as opposed to say,
> >> the KNFB reader for more than $1000. You mention affordable solutions
> >> and affordable cars; Google is one of the companies that doesn't require
> >> we wear new driving clothes to drive a car and rob bank chains to get
> >> the equipment.
> >> On 4/15/2013 7:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> >>> Hi, all,
> >>> I'm very sad to see passionate discussion degenerate into personal
> >>> insults. I know it's been said before, so I'll keep this quick, but
> >>> just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make that person
> >>> evil or stupid or anything like that. Most of us are young adults,
> >>> either in college or high school; it doesn't do us any favors when we
> >>> behave like bullies on an elementary school playground. If we want
> >>> respect, we ought to express ourselves in a way that shows we deserve
> >>> it.
> >>> Okay, my rant is over. Now on to something which is actually
> >>> substantive, I hope. I think the NFB car already served a valuable
> >>> purpose because it raised awareness about the realistic possibility of
> >>> blind people getting behind the wheel. Would google be considering
> >>> blind people without the publicity Mark Riccabono lent to the issue
> >>> when he drove around the Daytona speedway? Maybe, but probably not;
> >>> at least, probably not as much. I have to give the Federation
> >>> leadership credit, even in their car never pans out, because they got
> >>> people talking about this. Would we even be having this conversation
> >>> had we not had the Blind Driver Challenge a coule years ago? It's
> >>> something worth thinking about.
> >>> Now, although I would probably get a google car once the price
> >>> became managable, which would likely be several years after the dang
> >>> thing became publicly available, I have a few things I want to say.
> >>> I'll be addressing Peter specificly but, well, this applies to things
> >>> other people have said also.
> >>> Peter,
> >>> I respect your passion and enthusiasm. I really do. Still, and I
> >>> say this with the greatest civility and respect I possibly can, but if
> >>> you aren't gainfully employed with a very well-paying job, I don't
> >>> think you have any business saying that us as blind people can do
> >>> things, right now, to save up for this car. For the first several
> >>> years it's on the market, this thing will probably be incredibly
> >>> expensive, I'd be willing to bet it will be somewhere up in six
> >>> figures for a long time before the price drops to levels that most
> >>> working people, either blind or sighted, can afford. I don't mean to
> >>> be flippant but...where in the world are you going to get that kind of
> >>> money? If you're one of the majority of blind people who isn't
> >>> working, how do you even hope to think about possibly having the
> >>> barest hint of the ability to save up that kind of money on social
> >>> security? Now you can say "well...get a job." I agree with that
> >>> sentiment wholeheartedly. Still, if you take the stastics we hear all
> >>> the time at face value, only thirty percent of blind people are
> >>> employed. Most of those people have a nice five-figure income, just
> >>> like most working people in America. Most of that money probably goes
> >>> to house payments, existing car payments (yes. blind people have car
> >>> payments when they have a family to worry about), taxes and probably a
> >>> diversified portfoleo of financial investments if they are smart. How
> >>> is someone, even the average working blind person going to be able to
> >>> afford a car that will likely cost as much as a small house when it's
> >>> released to the public?
> >>> Don't get me wrong. I think history has shown us that the prices
> >>> for this thing will drop the longer the technology is on the market.
> >>> Computers used to cost as much as cars; now, even those of us living
> >>> on SSI can afford decent laptops if we're smart and save up for them.
> >>> Still, I think it's a very long time before the average blind person
> >>> will be able to afford one of these cars, let alone a private jet.
> >>> Best,
> >>> Kirt
> >>>
> >>> On 4/15/13, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>> Hello Arielle and everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> Particularly if the person operating the Google car would need to
> >>>> take
> >>>> over its control in an emergency. Since the technology to allow a
> blind
> >>>> person to drive independently why should we be left out.
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter Donahue
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:01 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe that Mark Riccobono has attended meetings with Google and
> >>>> the NFB at least seems to be supporting the Google technology as well
> >>>> as the Blind Driver Challenge technology. I think that both pursuits
> >>>> can be worthwhile in different ways, but as far as actually driving
> >>>> goes, I agree that the Google car is likely to be more affordable, and
> >>>> more widely accepted in society. But the nonvisual technology being
> >>>> developed by NFB in partnership with Virginia Tech engineers could
> >>>> also be promising as a backup platform for the car, or in other
> >>>> situations.
> >>>> Arielle
> >>>>
> >>>> On 4/15/13, Sophie Trist <sweetpeareader at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other
> >>>>> complex equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving
> >>>>> an autonomous vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people
> >>>>> have enough baggage as is. We don't need special driving clothes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago.
> >>>>> The car should be out by 2016.
> >>>>> Blessings, Joshua
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie
> >>>>> Trist [sweetpeareader at gmail.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never
> >>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard,
> >>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've
> >>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago.
> >>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just
> >>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more
> >>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another
> >>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution
> >>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one
> >>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or
> >>>>> electricity?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wow, Peter!
> >>>>> Like minds huh?
> >>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago!
> >>>>> Thanks, Joshua
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter
> >>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this
> >>>>> technology
> >>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the
> >>>>> track at
> >>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all
> >>>>> ready been
> >>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals
> >>>>> have driven
> >>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to
> >>>>> unite and
> >>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone
> >>>>> else to
> >>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is
> >>>>> controllable by a
> >>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is
> >>>>> protected. We
> >>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble
> >>>>> initiative.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Peter Donahue
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
> >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Amen, Patrick!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> >>>>> Public Relations Committee
> >>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> >>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> Patrick Molloy
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree
> >>>>> with you.
> >>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way
> >>>>> to go,
> >>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith
> >>>>> in the NFB
> >>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw
> >>>>> the thing!
> >>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away
> >>>>> from the
> >>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially
> >>>>> disappears. I'm not
> >>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling
> >>>>> myself with
> >>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive
> >>>>> and, with
> >>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey!
> >>>>> If you want
> >>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit,
> >>>>> more power to
> >>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy
> >>>>> that many
> >>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to
> >>>>> why blind
> >>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about
> >>>>> the potential
> >>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears
> >>>>> more or less
> >>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for
> >>>>> us blind
> >>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If
> >>>>> I decide
> >>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and
> >>>>> found it
> >>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel
> >>>>> that we as
> >>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car
> >>>>> in one way
> >>>>> or another.
> >>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're
> >>>>> tired of
> >>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer
> >>>>> practice! If
> >>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we
> >>>>> should have
> >>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues.
> >>>>> Separate is not
> >>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may
> >>>>> think it
> >>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly
> >>>>> to at
> >>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive
> >>>>> like our
> >>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us
> >>>>> self-serving,
> >>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they
> >>>>> can take a
> >>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a
> >>>>> bus if we
> >>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've
> >>>>> got time to
> >>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have
> >>>>> the same
> >>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted
> >>>>> people.
> >>>>> Patrick
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it
> >>>>> seems
> >>>>> like you
> >>>>>
> >>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd
> >>>>> buy
> >>>>> one if
> >>>>>
> >>>>> given a choice.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden
> >>>>> paratransit
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness.
> >>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient
> >>>>> and safe.
> >>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you
> >>>>> want
> >>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to
> >>>>> override the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> car.
> >>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk.
> >>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in
> >>>>> front of
> >>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the
> >>>>> speed
> >>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> walk, rode rage, and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> drunk drivers.
> >>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to
> >>>>> override
> >>>>> it when obstacles arise.
> >>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the
> >>>>> brakes due
> >>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who
> >>>>> unexpectedly
> >>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed
> >>>>> to,
> >>>>> pedestrians who
> >>>>>
> >>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk
> >>>>> signal
> >>>>> is on
> >>>>>
> >>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and
> >>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones.
> >>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with
> >>>>> eyes
> >>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act
> >>>>> upon
> >>>>> unexpected hazards.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right
> >>>>> ahead and
> >>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I
> >>>>> just
> >>>>> don't want to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> be on the road with you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind
> >>>>> people,
> >>>>> but we
> >>>>>
> >>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money.
> >>>>> Ashley
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with
> >>>>> buses I
> >>>>> have to agree with Sophie here. Plus, some parts of town that I
> >>>>> need
> >>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time
> >>>>> to get
> >>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the
> >>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of
> >>>>> Dayton's bus
> >>>>> system. (It's organized by buses going north-south and
> >>>>> east-west, but
> >>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell
> >>>>> you if
> >>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to
> >>>>> roll
> >>>>> with it. I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than
> >>>>> boomerang
> >>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again
> >>>>> returning to school. And because of this, and the fact that it
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> self-serving either. I have no problem in supporting it and
> >>>>> other
> >>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car,
> >>>>> which
> >>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended
> >>>>> license, or
> >>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other
> >>>>> blind
> >>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything
> >>>>> self-serving
> >>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient. I actually
> >>>>> think not
> >>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less
> >>>>> than
> >>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people
> >>>>> can
> >>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car
> >>>>> would be
> >>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could
> >>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and
> >>>>> the high
> >>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine. It's more efficient,
> >>>>> so why
> >>>>> not do it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence. :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett <kingettr at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be
> >>>>> self
> >>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes
> >>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more,
> >>>>> depending on
> >>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long.
> >>>>> Here
> >>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee
> >>>>> FL
> >>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were.
> >>>>> So
> >>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving
> >>>>> along
> >>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and
> >>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that
> >>>>> I'm
> >>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will
> >>>>> allowfor
> >>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time,
> >>>>> thus
> >>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other
> >>>>> non
> >>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat
> >>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> >>>>> info for
> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine
> >>>>> t104
> >>>>> %40gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Kaiti
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> >>>>> info for
> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4
> >>>>> 0eart
> >>>>> hlink.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> >>>>> info for
> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%
> >>>>> 40gma
> >>>>> il.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau
> >>>>> m%40gmail.c
> >>>>> om
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s
> >>>>> atx.rr.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4
> >>>>> 0pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade
> >>>>> r%40gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4
> >>>>> 0pccua.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade
> >>>>> r%40gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Take care,
> >> Ty
> >> http://tds-solutions.net
> >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
> >> that
> >> dares not reason is a slave.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Kaiti
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>
More information about the NABS-L
mailing list