[nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets

Arielle Silverman arielle71 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 17 04:03:13 UTC 2013


I don't have a VR case anymore, but I think I heard that they do close
your case after 90 days of employment but they can sign equipment over
to you at that time.
Arielle

On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Justin,
>
> Did you look that up?  I'm just curious to know if that's a national
> thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back
> to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne
> suggested?
> I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed
> they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully
> employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own
> equipment.  It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a
> laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that
> 90 day period to replace it.  If you don't know all that it's fine
> though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out.
>
> On 4/15/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 90 days after employment and your case is closed.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti
>> Shelton
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't
>> think if given the choice I would go for it.  I'm not sure about what
>> other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements
>> for everything they get you so you know that it's their property.
>> They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and
>> give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years
>> to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a
>> starting salary of 40,00 or less.  I wouldn't like for something to
>> happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say,
>> "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since
>> you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the
>> requirements even though you've already met your employment goals."
>> It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way.
>>
>> On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google
>>> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and
>>> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase
>>> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of
>>> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think
>>> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it,
>>> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied
>>> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending
>>> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor
>>> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded.
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I find myself agreeing with several points.
>>>>
>>>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into
>>>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not
>>>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working
>>>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different
>>>> places at the same time.  I agree with Kirt that even after this thing
>>>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price
>>>> is reasonable.  Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this
>>>> car is.  Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could
>>>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed.  Say,
>>>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely
>>>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere.
>>>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or
>>>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station.
>>>>  And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the
>>>> car to resume the route?  Just hypotheticals worth some consideration,
>>>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical.  Also, even if a car
>>>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of
>>>> driving around.  Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives
>>>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five
>>>> miles to the south.  I realize these are very small measurements, but
>>>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it.  One person
>>>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the
>>>> office and back.  Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to
>>>> drop the other person off.  When the person who got to work by eight
>>>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and
>>>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other
>>>> person and bring them home.  That's 40 miles in a day.  Now, say the
>>>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day
>>>> going back and forth to work.  That's half the driving, half the gas,
>>>> and although there are 2 cars on  the road instead of one, less
>>>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment.  What I was saying
>>>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars
>>>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once,
>>>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already
>>>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it.
>>>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top
>>>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a
>>>> negative thing.  I agree with Chris that it will probably help some
>>>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which
>>>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable.  I think both these
>>>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between
>>>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too.  I could
>>>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the
>>>> following:  Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you
>>>> once the other interviews are finished.  One more question, can you
>>>> drive one of those Google cars?  We could really use someone in our
>>>> area across town."  Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet.  I'm hoping
>>>> to save up for one though."  In this case, the employer's expectation
>>>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the
>>>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the
>>>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of
>>>> the job.  I think there are a lot of complicated positives and
>>>> negatives to consider.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Good morning Chris and everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us.
>>>>> Should
>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB
>>>>> developed
>>>>>
>>>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo
>>>>> driver
>>>>>
>>>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal
>>>>> cab
>>>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver
>>>>> we
>>>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly
>>>>> whenever
>>>>>
>>>>> we need transportation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment
>>>>> rate?
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Nusbaum
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl <wmodnl at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my own two sense:
>>>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a
>>>>>> car
>>>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it.
>>>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream.  I am all for innovation;
>>>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as
>>>>>> drivers.
>>>>>> I could just here the advertizement:
>>>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call
>>>>>> (800)lawyers.  Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> be properly prioritized.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist"
>>>>>> <sweetpeareader at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other
>>>>>>> complex
>>>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an
>>>>>>> autonomous
>>>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough
>>>>>>> baggage
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago.
>>>>>>> The car should be out by 2016.
>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist
>>>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never
>>>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard,
>>>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've
>>>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago.
>>>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just
>>>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more
>>>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another
>>>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution
>>>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one
>>>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or
>>>>>>> electricity?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wow, Peter!
>>>>>>> Like minds huh?
>>>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago!
>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter
>>>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this
>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the
>>>>>>> track at
>>>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all
>>>>>>> ready been
>>>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals
>>>>>>> have driven
>>>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to
>>>>>>> unite and
>>>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone
>>>>>>> else to
>>>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is
>>>>>>> controllable by a
>>>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is
>>>>>>> protected. We
>>>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble
>>>>>>> initiative.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Amen, Patrick!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
>>>>>>> Public Relations Committee
>>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Patrick Molloy
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree
>>>>>>> with you.
>>>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way
>>>>>>> to go,
>>>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith
>>>>>>> in the NFB
>>>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw
>>>>>>> the thing!
>>>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially
>>>>>>> disappears. I'm not
>>>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling
>>>>>>> myself with
>>>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive
>>>>>>> and, with
>>>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey!
>>>>>>> If you want
>>>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit,
>>>>>>> more power to
>>>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy
>>>>>>> that many
>>>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to
>>>>>>> why blind
>>>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about
>>>>>>> the potential
>>>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears
>>>>>>> more or less
>>>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for
>>>>>>> us blind
>>>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If
>>>>>>> I decide
>>>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and
>>>>>>> found it
>>>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel
>>>>>>> that we as
>>>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car
>>>>>>> in one way
>>>>>>> or another.
>>>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're
>>>>>>> tired of
>>>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer
>>>>>>> practice! If
>>>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we
>>>>>>> should have
>>>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues.
>>>>>>> Separate is not
>>>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may
>>>>>>> think it
>>>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly
>>>>>>> to at
>>>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive
>>>>>>> like our
>>>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us
>>>>>>> self-serving,
>>>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they
>>>>>>> can take a
>>>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a
>>>>>>> bus if we
>>>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've
>>>>>>> got time to
>>>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have
>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it
>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>> like you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd
>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>> one if
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> given a choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden
>>>>>>> paratransit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness.
>>>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient
>>>>>>> and safe.
>>>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to
>>>>>>> override the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> car.
>>>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk.
>>>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in
>>>>>>> front of
>>>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the
>>>>>>> speed
>>>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> walk, rode rage, and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> drunk drivers.
>>>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to
>>>>>>> override
>>>>>>> it when obstacles arise.
>>>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the
>>>>>>> brakes due
>>>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who
>>>>>>> unexpectedly
>>>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed
>>>>>>> to,
>>>>>>> pedestrians who
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk
>>>>>>> signal
>>>>>>> is on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and
>>>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones.
>>>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with
>>>>>>> eyes
>>>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act
>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>> unexpected hazards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right
>>>>>>> ahead and
>>>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> don't want to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> be on the road with you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind
>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>> but we
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money.
>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with
>>>>>>> buses I
>>>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here.  Plus, some parts of town that I
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the
>>>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of
>>>>>>> Dayton's bus
>>>>>>> system.  (It's organized by buses going north-south and
>>>>>>> east-west, but
>>>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell
>>>>>>> you if
>>>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to
>>>>>>> roll
>>>>>>> with it.  I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than
>>>>>>> boomerang
>>>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again
>>>>>>> returning to school.  And because of this, and the fact that it
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> self-serving either.  I have no problem in supporting it and
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended
>>>>>>> license, or
>>>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything
>>>>>>> self-serving
>>>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient.  I actually
>>>>>>> think not
>>>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could
>>>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and
>>>>>>> the high
>>>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine.  It's more efficient,
>>>>>>> so why
>>>>>>> not do it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence.  :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett <kingettr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be
>>>>>>> self
>>>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes
>>>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more,
>>>>>>> depending on
>>>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long.
>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee
>>>>>>> FL
>>>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were.
>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving
>>>>>>> along
>>>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and
>>>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will
>>>>>>> allowfor
>>>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time,
>>>>>>> thus
>>>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other
>>>>>>> non
>>>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat
>>>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Kaiti
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> Kaiti
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