[nabs-l] Extended Time

Thu Feb 7 02:15:33 UTC 2013

Hi all,

Kirt, I understand what you're saying, but that is hard to do when
you're carrying 22 credits and have other classes to attend right
after the other.  I'm still required to finish my tests the same day
that they were originally given, but like today for example I had a
test in one class and because I had to flip back and forth between my
microsoft word document and the music excerpt I was writing in
Goodfeel it took me extra time.  Coincidentally, I had another class
with another test right after that one, so my teacher took back the
flashdrive and we made an office appointment for a few hours later
after my other three classes and other 2 tests of the day were done.
As I was in other classes and focused on the material and my professor
had the flashdrive with the exam files, there really wasn't a way I
could have studied.  My professors do safeguard against cheating,
which I don't do anyway, but they're also understanding that I'm
carrying a heavy courseload and have other time demands placed on me.
However, on your point about using process of elimination in test
situations I wholeheartedly agree that it just makes sense; I can't
remember not doing it even when I was a kid just because it saves so
much time.

Arielle:  Thanks for starting the topic.  It's really interesting to
think about and hear other people's takes on the issue.

On 2/6/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Thanks for entertaining my questions about extended time. I do think
> Julie makes a good point that it's hard to go on a case-by-case basis
> when setting a policy about extended time for testing. I do also agree
> that sometimes the accommodations we use are inadequate for allowing
> us to take a test in the time allotted for sighted students. I guess I
> was thinking more in a K-12 ed situation, in which case education
> decisions should be case-by-case as in IEP's.
> I remember in elementary school, having to take standardized tests and
> being given double time to complete my Brailled test. I was literally
> required to sit until the double time was up if I finished in the same
> time as the sighted classmates. I also remember my TVI bragging about
> how fast I was because I finished question sets without going into
> double time. The fact is that should not have been something worthy of
> bragging. It just meant I knew the material and was taught Braille at
> an appropriate age. It is sad when the expectation of blind students
> is to be slower and a blind student performing at average or
> above-average speed is shocking. But that's a whole other topic for
> another day.
> I don't think we should advocate to not get extended time in college
> because, again, there are legitimate situations when the technology or
> reader takes longer for some reason. I would however suggest that if
> we as individuals choose to use the extra time or find ourselves
> needing it a lot, we might want to examine what is taking longer and
> whether the accommodations we are using are inadequate. For example,
> as Ashley said, maybe her testing website isn't fully accessible and
> so a reader would be more efficient. On the other hand, for some of us
> taking extra time may be a sign that we just don't understand the
> material very well and could benefit from some tutoring or some more
> practice with Braille or computers. I think it's fair to suggest that
> our goal should be to do things without any extra time whenever
> possible, but still allow ourselves to use it occasionally if we
> really need it and can't find a way to remedy the situation. Does that
> make sense?
> Arielle
>
> On 2/6/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Kirt,
>> I'm saying what might happen in some situations and why I argue extended
>> time is needed; I think communication with a reader and hearing it takes
>> slightly longer. As to the method of taking a test, no a reader doesn't
>> need
>>
>> to repeat every question or repeat it if I'm sure I know the answer.
>> But if I am not sure I eliminate two answers and chose from the other
>> two;
>> that is what all test takers do and for me it takes some repetetion.
>> No, I do not always use all  extended time; it may depend on the class.
>> But I think it’s a good accomodation to have if its needed.
>> For instance I did not need extended time for my intro to business final
>> or
>>
>> my
>> intro to computer concepts final.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kirt Manwaring
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 4:58 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>
>> Ashley,
>>   I know this might not be completely rellivant, but I'm curious where
>> you get the idea that everybody takes tests in the way you described,
>> because I sure as hell don't.  For me, if I know the answer, there's
>> no point in re-reading all the answers over again, eliminating two
>> answers that don't work, than choosing the one I already know is right
>> from the two remaining choices.  If I'm reasonably sure I know what
>> the answer is, I don't see a need for a reader to repeat anything.  Of
>> course, if I'm not sure and I have to guess, I'll try and eliminate
>> answers that I don't think are right; similarly, if I'm confused about
>> a question, or any answers, or I forget something, I have no qualms
>> about asking a reader to repeat it for me.  But, more often than not,
>> that doesn't happen.  I just did a hundred question multiple-choice
>> test with a reader a few days ago and I think I maybe had her re-read
>> things on maybe 15 of the questions.  I'm just curious why you'd take
>> extra time agonizing over a question if you're already pretty sure
>> what the answer is?
>>   Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 2/6/13, Kirt <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ashley,
>>> I understand, I've seen it exactly the way you are talking about before.
>>> And, honestly, figuring it out never slowed me down more than like five
>>> or
>>> 10 seconds. There are a couple ways Josquin read it, depending on the
>>> quiz,
>>> but, honestly, once I listen to the four answers, or financers, or
>>> whatever,
>>> it's not that hard to remember which one goes with which radio button.
>>> The
>>> ones that are slightly trickier for me, though still very possible
>>> within
>>> the normal time frame, are the matching ones where you have like 20
>>> different statements, and you have to match each statement with the
>>> person
>>> who said it, or something like that. Often times, those have been set up
>>> for
>>> me like combo boxes, so it takes maybe 5 to 10 seconds extra on each
>>> question to make sure I am picking the right thing. But, as I said,
>>> listening to jaws At 70% of its maximum speed, while only meeting to
>>> really
>>> confusing questions occasionally, kind of offsets that extra amount of
>>> time.
>>> But, I also recognize that is a skill I have acquired through 10+ years
>>> of
>>> practice, and it is definitely not practical for everybody.
>>> Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2013, at 1:54 PM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kirt,
>>>> I'm glad that works for you. Yes I've heard of the quic hot key R for
>>>> radio buttons.
>>>> Yes, it takes you to the first radio button. But what I'm saying is
>>>> there
>>>> are four buttons for four choices per answer.
>>>> I hear all of the choices and then go up line by line to select my
>>>> choice.
>>>> I don't thinking pressing shift R will work because it will just take
>>>> me
>>>> to the last radio button, but I need to see the whole line. Its hard to
>>>> explain, what I mean is I need to see what radio button goes with each
>>>> answer.
>>>> I wish jaws said something like B radio button checked and then read
>>>> the
>>>> answer but its not like that.
>>>> Maybe our blackboard is different. I think finding the start of the
>>>> quiz
>>>> with H for heading is my best bet and once I figure out what heading
>>>> level
>>>> it is, I can use the number heading for the next ones; for instance, 3
>>>> for
>>>> heading 3.
>>>>
>>>> I feel a reader could give me the info I need by scrolling up to say
>>>> question 4 and reading me what I selected rather than me going line by
>>>> line through the questions. Maybe I should do that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I haven't had online quizzes before so I'm hoping to get used to it and
>>>> find short cut keys that work. Still IMO, extended time should be
>>>> granted
>>>> if I feel its needed. My professor will have to give me extra time in
>>>> class quizzes though.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps my disability counselor will talk to the professor.
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 1:50 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>>>
>>>> Ashley,
>>>> I don't mean to be contrary, but I have found quite the opposite to be
>>>> the
>>>> case in my personal experiences with jaws.  You can press are, from the
>>>> start of the page, to go directly to the first radio button on the
>>>> first
>>>> question… It will save you a whole bunch of arrowing down.  And, at
>>>> least
>>>> for me, once I figured out how Jaws Associates radio buttons with
>>>> particular question answers, on whatever quiz I'm taking, it's been
>>>> really
>>>> easy to just apply that pattern to the rest of the quiz… Hopefully, I
>>>> am
>>>> making sense. For me, personally, the only online assignments that
>>>> warrant
>>>> extra time are the ones with lots of images that need to be described
>>>> by
>>>> somebody else. If an online quiz, or test, or assignment is all text,
>>>> which many of them are, I usually finish well within the allotted time.
>>>> In
>>>> fact, I have noticed, my screen reader reads things to me faster than
>>>> many
>>>> sided people read. While I don't comprehend as much as I do with
>>>> braille,
>>>> this is definitely an advantage for me sometimes which, I daresay, most
>>>> people don't have.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 6, 2013, at 10:34 AM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Arielle,
>>>>> Well I see your points. Extended time while we use braille could send
>>>>> a
>>>>> bad message I suppose that we're inherently slow.
>>>>> I cannot remember whether I used  extended time all the time in high
>>>>> school or not. I had a study hall period with my vision teacher, or
>>>>> TVI
>>>>> as they're called. Here I finished any tests or in class assignments I
>>>>> needed to for the day or worked on homework. This was very valuable
>>>>> time
>>>>> for me since I struggled with some spatial concepts too and my TVI
>>>>> sort
>>>>> of acted as a tutor for math as well and explained diagrams.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think ideally that  extended time and accomodations should be given
>>>>> on
>>>>> a case by case basis. You may need some accomodations in one class and
>>>>> not others.
>>>>> But that isn't how college works; they have to make accomodations
>>>>> across
>>>>> the board so you have one accomodation sheet for all professors.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel that yes extended time is needed in college because of
>>>>> the medium its taken in. I consider equal access to be braille since
>>>>> sighted students read it; they do not have to hear it.
>>>>> As you know, braille is not given to us in college except for maybe
>>>>> math
>>>>> if you beg for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I think using jaws is slower than reading it in print. If its
>>>>> multiple choice, I find I need to hear it twice because as with any
>>>>> test
>>>>> taker, I read it once and eliminate two answers and read it again to
>>>>> pic
>>>>> the  best answer.
>>>>> A sighted user clicks the correct button where as we have to go line
>>>>> by
>>>>> line and listen to the line and arrow up til finding the right answer.
>>>>> If using a reader, I need them to repeat my answers sometimes to
>>>>> ensure
>>>>> they circled the right one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to get extended time for practice online quizzes because I
>>>>> need to scroll back up to check my answers.
>>>>> I'm confused as to what radio button goes
>>>>> with what answer. I wish the Letter options of A, b, c, d were on the
>>>>> same line but jaws isn't reading like that.
>>>>> Not to mention that I use a minute or two to find where the darn quiz
>>>>> begins! Yes, I do use the quick navigation keys such as H for heading
>>>>> to
>>>>> help but when there are lots of headings this doesn't help too much.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find that other forms of tests such as short answer and essay
>>>>> formats
>>>>> take me less time. I don't always use extended time. But its there in
>>>>> the
>>>>> many cases I do need it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I  just hope I can get
>>>>> extended time for the blackboard quiz. It has to be manually changed
>>>>> for
>>>>> me to get extended time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:57 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> The last post about using extra time on quizzes got me thinking about
>>>>> why we automatically get extra time to take tests and whether or not
>>>>> this is a good idea. I think the extra time is intended to correct for
>>>>> any issues with our accommodations or technology that make test-taking
>>>>> slower; for example, it might make sense to use extra time if we have
>>>>> to have a scribe write an essay for us or if we are using a reader and
>>>>> asking them to repeat things or read answer choices a few times. Extra
>>>>> time also seems appropriate if we have a problem with technology
>>>>> breaking, files not downloading correctly, etc. But I question whether
>>>>> extra time is really appropriate for online quizzes, for example, or
>>>>> for Braille or large print tests.
>>>>> As a Braille reader I used extended time only on a few occasions and I
>>>>> found that I only "needed" it when, deep down, I didn't fully
>>>>> understand the material I was being tested on. This happened a lot
>>>>> when I had tactile diagrams to interpret since I have always been bad
>>>>> with spatial mapping and understanding tactile images. So I would use
>>>>> the extra time to agonize over test questions I didn't understand and
>>>>> then eventually guess an answer. I really don't think the extra time
>>>>> was helpful for either my test performance or my learning and I feel
>>>>> it only acted as a Band-Aid covering up the real issue which was that
>>>>> I didn't know how to interpret tactile images. Had I not been granted
>>>>> extended time this might have become a more pressing issue for me to
>>>>> deal with back in high school. Similarly, I worry that when Braille
>>>>> readers are automatically granted double time across the board, it
>>>>> allows teachers to grow complacent with slower Braille-reading speeds
>>>>> than is desirable and almost sets up the expectation that Braille
>>>>> reading is inherently slow. It might be appropriate to *temporarily*
>>>>> grant an individual student extended time while they are still in the
>>>>> process of building Braille fluency, but granting it to everybody who
>>>>> reads Braille is something that bothers me. I also question the
>>>>> implication that blind students just do things slower and that nothing
>>>>> can or should be done about it so just let them take extra time. I
>>>>> don't need to tell you that extended time is not granted in the job
>>>>> world and this is becoming more real for me as I approach graduation
>>>>> and employment myself.
>>>>> I'm not trying to belittle anybody who uses extended time. I am just
>>>>> proposing that we reflect a little on what the extra time is
>>>>> specifically meant to accomplish, why we use it and whether or not it
>>>>> is actually helpful. I would propose that we make mindful decisions
>>>>> about when to accept extended time and that we aim to use it only when
>>>>> it is truly necessary and beneficial. In order to grow as students
>>>>> progressing toward employment, I think we should also be aware of why
>>>>> we are finding ourselves needing extra time and see if there are skill
>>>>> issues we might be able to address so that we need it less in the
>>>>> future. In my own case my weakness with tactile diagrams probably
>>>>> won't impact me much on the job, but a weakness in Braille reading
>>>>> speed or Web navigation is something that can be addressed with
>>>>> training and practice and addressing it can make a person much more
>>>>> competitive on the job, and able to get the job done as efficiently as
>>>>> sightedd colleagues.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
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-- 
Kaiti