[nabs-l] Extended Time

Fri Feb 8 07:36:49 UTC 2013

Hi Chris
Sorry, I only saw your post now. For some weird reason it seems as if
your posts are being put in my spam folder, I must try work out why.
Anyway, you were wondering about tests in South Africa? Mostly
everyone still does the pen and paper. Even quizzes, we're still on
that stage as far as I've seen in my studies, not much is done online
at the moment. Some courses have moved to online tests in some ways,
like multiple choice questions, but not many, and I'm also not too
sure how they accommodate the normal students, they probably have to
write it in the computer centre.
There is now an initiative where students can get netbooks quite
affordably, so it will be interesting to see in the future how much
will move to online testing. Many students like me use a netbook or a
laptop or something to take notes in class, now but still many prefer
or rather use paper.
For exams, the students also all go write in a large exam hall using
books, pen and paper. Disabled students who can't do that usually go
to the disability office and we write on a computer with jaws.
Ari
On 2/8/13, Ari Damoulakis <aridamoulakis at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes Kaiti, I think for the most part if it can be done on its own,
> then try do it. Unfortunately there are often times and for so many
> things one has to ask help from students and people that where it is
> possible you have to try do what you can on your own. Take me for
> example. I have another problem where I have to often ask students to
> help me to the different classes, because they change nearly every 3
> months. Even if I know my way to a building, or how to get to the
> floor of the class, it gets difficult sometimes to try find it. OK, I
> have a terrible sense of direction, but it is even when the campus is
> huge and all of a sudden you have class in some random building you
> have no idea where it is. I'm interested to know how you guys get to
> different classes, the strategies you use. I know my way around the
> main places I normally go, cafeteria, my department, the unit, but
> navigating more widely I just don't know how to handle.
> I'm quite interested, you say you have to schedule your exams, do you
> write them at the same time as other students, or why is it something
> you have to arrange with your professors? I'm not talking about
> quizzes, you were saying something about mid-terms, so I'm just
> curious to know how it works there. Here we write them at the same
> time, and we write in the disability office.
> From what I gather, the problem with moodle is, its not moodle itself
> that might be inaccessible. It is more the fact that people who design
> the content that goes on moodle design it in an inaccessible way.
> Wow Julie, you are very lucky to have such a great disability office.
> That's really great. Unfortunately here it does work the other way
> round like you were explaining, although I suppose its more a matter
> of the people who design stuff here not really communicating or
> worrying about accessibility, so they don't consult with the
> disability office, its great that there they ask for input. Here
> unfortunately it is more the case of that disabled people, especially
> the blind are such a small minority that the easiest solutions are
> looked at.
> Actually, while I'm on the topic of blind advocacy, I just want to
> write and explain something here which might be going a bit off-topic,
> but I do think its very important and interesting to learn about
> circumstances of blind people in different countries.
>     We do have advocacy organisations here, but unfortunately due to
> circumstances we here can never really unite into as strong
> organisations as RNIB and NFB to fight as much for accessibility or
> adjustments as what you guys can.
> This is unfortunately because the circumstances here for blind people
> are so divided and in much more desperate conditions.
> Yes I often complain about not being able to use diagrams or the lack
> of resources or help that I have or can get, but I am actually
> incredibly fortunate and grateful for the opportunity to study that I
> have, and one must just try make the best of it.
> Why I'm saying this is, the main reason why we can't really advocate
> for more advanced services here is because our organisations and we
> ourselves rather have a duty and must rather help the blind here who
> are really in poverty.
> I'm not exaggerating when I say that some of the blind here, it is
> basically about a struggle for survival and to survive.
> Many blind people here who don't have the opportunities I've been
> fortunate to have often spend their days trying to play music outside
> shops, selling things at street lights, or even begging just to try
> get something to survive and live. Some of them don't even have the
> dignity of being able to have a propper cane, they often use wooden
> sticks or even tree branches. We definitely rather have a duty to help
> these people first before we can even begin to worry about other
> things.
> I didn't say all this to try guilt-trip anyone or anything like that.
> The point I think I'm trying to make is, yes there are some
> difficulties in studying and being able to do some things, but when we
> realise the opportunities we have we must try our best because we are
> so lucky to have these opportunities, and we must really be greatful
> for them. So I encourage everyone to study as hard as you can, and to
> realise how wonderful it is to be able to learn and read about things.
> I just hope all of you who I've met on the list so far will be lucky
> to get a job one day.
> Ari
> On 2/8/13, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree with Kaiti here.  I believe that an access office is a place
>> where we can find the tools to be able to take our classes as
>> independently as possible.  I don't think that means never using a
>> reader or using human help for things, but I do think it means that we
>> (as students) participate in our classes as fully as sighted students
>> in all ways possible.
>>
>> Our assistive tech specialist is working to make forms on the
>> graduation page accessible.  I am helping her by testing different
>> forms with jaws and trying to explain why they do not work.  Someone
>> came into her office a while back, and when we explained about this
>> new project, she asked why it was necessary that these forms be
>> accessible since someone could easily read me the form and fill it out
>> for me.  The assistive tech person gave the best answer.  She said
>> that it's not about whether or not someone could help me; it's about
>> doing things independently and being able to access the same material
>> and fill it out the same as everyone else.  I wanted to applaud her.
>> :)
>>
>> Unfortunately, testing is such a gray area that you could strive to be
>> independent all day long, but if, for example, you are reading a
>> foreign language document that jaws isn't pronouncing in the language,
>> your test is going to take longer.  There is just no definite answer
>> here.
>>
>> On 2/7/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Chris and all,
>>>
>>> Very good point.  I think that was forgotten and it is a very good
>>> point to consider.
>>>
>>> Ari: To give more of an explanation my school uses a system called
>>> Isidore, although it's just a version of Sakai (named after the patron
>>> saint of learning, school children, and books to be clever).  Each of
>>> my courses has it's own web site.  If a professor for my psych class
>>> assigns a quiz I would go to the psych web site, go to a section
>>> called tests and quizzes, and open the test that the professor has
>>> uploaded to Isidore.  Usually it's basic text with radio buttons,
>>> checkboxes, and edit fields for entering answers.  Once I hit the
>>> submit button the professor has access to my answers and can grade
>>> them.  As an added bonus, once they've graded my test and uploaded it
>>> to another section of the site called the gradebook I can see my score
>>> on my test as well as all my other assignments.  I haven't had
>>> experience with Moodle, but I'm assuming that it's pretty similar to
>>> Sakai or Blackboard.  It's a shame it's not accessible, but it's not
>>> in as wide use as Blackboard and other systems like it so it may not
>>> have been tested for accessibility.  Blackboard itself didn't become
>>> accessible till a few years ago when a bunch of schools and blindness
>>> organizations pushed for it.  You're right that it's part of the
>>> digital age, but that's why I like it; it's quick, convenient, and I
>>> can do it independently.  I hope this gives you an idea of what it's
>>> like.
>>>
>>> Digressing back to my previous email though, I think it's important to
>>> consider when taking help is appropriate even if it is always at our
>>> disposal.  I think having the mindset that you could just have someone
>>> else do something for you because you can't see it can be a
>>> double-edged sword; on the one hand, it's great to have that assurance
>>> because if you really do need help due to true accessibility issues
>>> than the help is there, but when JAWS works and there's simple text
>>> and good web code, it's really not necessary.  I think training people
>>> to assume you need help even when you could do something yourself may
>>> cause them to not truly understand what is an accessibility issue and
>>> what is not.  It also sends the wrong message and makes them think
>>> that blind people are needier than we really are, but that's just my
>>> take on it.
>>>
>>> On 2/7/13, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Kaiti and all,
>>>>
>>>> 	Keep in mind that Ari lives in South Africa. I don't know what (if
>>>> any) differences there are in the way tests are taken in South Africa
>>>> when
>>>> compared with our country. Ari, this may be something you would be able
>>>> to
>>>> give insight into.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti
>>>> Shelton
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 6:06 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>>>
>>>> Ari,
>>>>
>>>> Looks like you have differing perspectives on this issue to consider.
>>>> I love online test-taking because it gives me independence.  I don't
>>>> have
>>>> to
>>>> schedule a time in the testing center and can just access the
>>>> information
>>>> and complete the forms from my classroom or dorm if it's a take-home
>>>> quiz.
>>>> I guess the amount of accessibility your college provides would be a
>>>> variable of consideration here, but if they do a decent job and the
>>>> Sakai
>>>> or
>>>> blackboard site you're using has code that follows basic accessibility
>>>> guidelines there shouldn't be anything visual that would serve as an
>>>> obstacle to keep you from doing your work on your own.
>>>>
>>>> Carlie, don't take this as being critical because I don't mean to sound
>>>> harsh, and usually I actually agree with you on most things, but I
>>>> guess
>>>> it's a matter of philosophy too.  I personally don't like to ask other
>>>> people for help unless I truly do need it.  I'm not one of those people
>>>> who
>>>> dreads, hates, or avoids asking for help, but I do like to do
>>>> everything
>>>> I
>>>> can independently and don't see the necessity of getting another person
>>>> to
>>>> help you take your test.  To me it feels like that was something I
>>>> needed
>>>> in
>>>> elementary or middle school but now as a college student I don't need
>>>> that
>>>> anymore.
>>>>
>>>> On 2/7/13, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> Good morning, Ari,
>>>>>
>>>>>          Personally, I reject all that On-line test taking, preferring
>>>>> instead human inner action. I don't feel it saying anything less of me
>>>>> to call on my fellllow humans to, in the absence of my own visual
>>>>> capabilities, to do the visual stuff, for me.
>>>>> I mean, aren't people upon this earth to help each other, no mater
>>>>> how?
>>>>> This, is to say that personally, I don't mind calling on my fellow
>>>>> humans to do the ocular seeing for me, just as I would be totall
>>>>> obliged if another  person needed me to fulfill some sensual imput
>>>>> that was within my capacity, and not ther's.6/2013, you
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>I am curious to know about this online testing thing, because it seems
>>>>>>as if you guys are mostly all doing it? What I mean is, what is the
>>>>>>software you are doing the test on? We use moodle here and once they
>>>>>>had an online test for something or other but the unit said the online
>>>>>>testing at my uni isn't accessible. It is also very interesting to see
>>>>>>how you guys do online tests in class, I suppose its all in the
>>>>>>digital revolution. Unfortunately here I suppose many students can't
>>>>>>afford the technology or the professors don't trust online tests, in
>>>>>>any case, everyone still uses the old pen and paper, even for multiple
>>>>>>choice quizzes, so we then have to do it orally with a tutor.
>>>>>>Ari
>>>>>>Ari
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 2/6/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> > Kirt,
>>>>>> > I'm glad that works for you. Yes I've heard of the quic hot key R
>>>>>> > for radio buttons.
>>>>>> > Yes, it takes you to the first radio button. But what I'm saying is
>>>>>> > there are four buttons for four choices per answer.
>>>>>> > I hear all of the choices and then go up line
>>>>>> by line to select my choice. I
>>>>>> > don't thinking pressing shift R will work because it will just take
>>>>>> > me to the last radio button, but I need to see the whole line. Its
>>>>>> > hard to explain, what I mean is I need to see what radio button
>>>>>> > goes with each answer.
>>>>>> > I wish jaws said something like B radio button checked and then
>>>>>> > read the answer but its not like that.
>>>>>> > Maybe our blackboard is different. I think finding the start of the
>>>>>> > quiz with H for heading is my best bet and once I figure out what
>>>>>> > heading level it is, I can use the number heading for the next
>>>>>> > ones; for instance, 3 for heading 3.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I feel a reader could give me the info I need by scrolling up to
>>>>>> > say question 4 and reading me what I selected rather than me going
>>>>>> > line by line through the questions. Maybe I should do that.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I haven't had online quizzes before so I'm
>>>>>> hoping to get used to it and find
>>>>>> > short cut keys that work. Still IMO, extended time should be
>>>>>> > granted if I feel its needed. My professor will have to give me
>>>>>> > extra time in class quizzes though.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Perhaps my disability counselor will talk to the professor.
>>>>>> > Ashley
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > From: Kirt
>>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 1:50 PM
>>>>>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Ashley,
>>>>>> > I don't mean to be contrary, but I have found quite the opposite to
>>>>>> > be the case in my personal experiences with jaws.  You can press
>>>>>> > are, from the start of the page, to go directly to the first radio
>>>>>> > button on the first question. It will save you a whole bunch of
>>>>>> > arrowing down.  And, at least for me, once I figured out how Jaws
>>>>>> Associates radio buttons with particular
>>>>>> > question answers, on whatever quiz I'm
>>>>>> taking, it's been really easy to just
>>>>>> > apply that pattern to the rest of the quiz. Hopefully, I am making
>>>>>> > sense.
>>>>>> > For me, personally, the only online assignments that warrant extra
>>>>>> > time are the ones with lots of images that need to be described by
>>>>>> > somebody else.
>>>>>> > If
>>>>>> > an online quiz, or test, or assignment is all text, which many of
>>>>>> > them are, I usually finish well within the allotted time. In fact,
>>>>>> > I have noticed, my screen reader reads things to me faster than
>>>>>> many sided people read. While I
>>>>>> > don't comprehend as much as I do with braille, this is definitely
>>>>>> > an advantage for me sometimes which, I daresay, most people don't
>>>>>> > have.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Feb 6, 2013, at 10:34 AM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>>>> > <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Hi Arielle,
>>>>>> >> Well I see your points. Extended time while we use braille could
>>>>>> >> send a bad message I suppose that we're inherently slow.
>>>>>> >> I cannot remember whether I used  extended time all the time in
>>>>>> >> high school or not. I had a study hall period with my vision
>>>>>> >> teacher, or TVI as
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> they're called. Here I finished any tests or in class assignments
>>>>>> >> I needed
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> to for the day or worked on homework. This was very valuable time
>>>>>> >> for me since I struggled with some spatial concepts too and my TVI
>>>>>> >> sort of acted as a tutor for math as well and explained diagrams.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I think ideally that  extended time and accomodations should be
>>>>>> >> given on a
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> case by case basis. You may need some accomodations in one class
>>>>>> >> and not others.
>>>>>> >> But that isn't how college works; they have to make accomodations
>>>>>> >> across the board so you have one accomodation sheet for all
>>>>>> >> professors.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I feel that yes extended time is needed in college because of the
>>>>>> >> medium its taken in. I consider equal access to be braille since
>>>>>> >> sighted students read it; they do not have to hear it.
>>>>>> >> As you know, braille is not given to us in college except for
>>>>>> >> maybe math if you beg for it.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> So, I think using jaws is slower than reading it in print. If its
>>>>>> >> multiple
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> choice, I find I need to hear it twice because as with any test
>>>>>> >> taker, I read it once and eliminate two answers and read it again
>>>>>> >> to pic the best answer.
>>>>>> >> A sighted user clicks the correct button where as we have to go
>>>>>> >> line by line and listen to the line and arrow up til finding the
>>>>>> >> right answer.
>>>>>> >> If using a reader, I need them to repeat my answers sometimes to
>>>>>> >> ensure they circled the right one.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I am trying to get extended time for practice online quizzes
>>>>>> >> because I need to scroll back up to check my answers.
>>>>>> >> I'm confused as to what radio button goes with what answer. I wish
>>>>>> >> the Letter options of A, b, c, d were on the same
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> line but jaws isn't reading like that.
>>>>>> >> Not to mention that I use a minute or two to find where the darn
>>>>>> >> quiz begins! Yes, I do use the quick navigation keys such as H for
>>>>>> >> heading to help but when there are lots of headings this doesn't
>>>>>> >> help too much.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I find that other forms of tests such as short answer and essay
>>>>>> >> formats take me less time. I don't always use extended time. But
>>>>>> >> its there in the many cases I do need it.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Now, I  just hope I can get
>>>>>> >> extended time for the blackboard quiz. It has to be manually
>>>>>> >> changed for me to get extended time.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Ashley
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:57 PM
>>>>>> >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Hi all,
>>>>>> >> The last post about using extra time on quizzes got me thinking
>>>>>> >> about why we automatically get extra time to take tests and
>>>>>> >> whether or not this is a good idea. I think the extra time is
>>>>>> >> intended to correct for any issues with our accommodations or
>>>>>> >> technology that make test-taking slower; for example, it might
>>>>>> >> make sense to use extra time if we have to have a scribe write an
>>>>>> >> essay for us or if we are using a reader and asking them to repeat
>>>>>> >> things or read answer choices a few times. Extra time also seems
>>>>>> >> appropriate if we have a problem with technology breaking, files
>>>>>> >> not downloading correctly, etc. But I question whether extra time
>>>>>> >> is really appropriate for online quizzes, for example, or for
>>>>>> >> Braille
>>>> or large print tests.
>>>>>> >> As a Braille reader I used extended time only on a few occasions
>>>>>> >> and I found that I only "needed" it when, deep down, I didn't
>>>>>> >> fully understand the material I was being tested on. This happened
>>>>>> >> a lot when I had tactile diagrams to interpret since I have always
>>>>>> >> been bad with spatial mapping and understanding tactile images. So
>>>>>> >> I would use the extra time to agonize over test questions I didn't
>>>>>> >> understand and then eventually guess an answer. I really don't
>>>>>> >> think the extra time was helpful for either my test performance or
>>>>>> >> my learning and I feel it only acted as a Band-Aid covering up the
>>>>>> >> real issue which was that I didn't know how to interpret tactile
>>>>>> >> images. Had I not been granted extended time this might have
>>>>>> >> become a more pressing issue for me to deal with back in high
>>>>>> >> school. Similarly, I worry that when Braille readers are
>>>>>> >> automatically granted double time across the board, it allows
>>>>>> >> teachers to grow complacent with slower Braille-reading speeds
>>>>>> >> than is desirable and almost sets up the expectation that Braille
>>>>>> >> reading is inherently slow. It might be appropriate to
>>>>>> >> *temporarily* grant an individual student extended time while they
>>>>>> >> are still in the process of building Braille fluency, but granting
>>>>>> >> it to everybody who reads Braille is something that bothers me. I
>>>>>> >> also question the implication that blind students just do things
>>>>>> >> slower and that nothing can or should be done about it so just let
>>>>>> >> them take extra time. I don't need to tell you that extended time
>>>>>> >> is not granted in the job world and this is becoming more real for
>>>>>> >> me
>>>> as I approach graduation and employment myself.
>>>>>> >> I'm not trying to belittle anybody who uses extended time. I am
>>>>>> >> just proposing that we reflect a little on what the extra time is
>>>>>> >> specifically meant to accomplish, why we use it and whether or not
>>>>>> >> it is actually helpful. I would propose that we make mindful
>>>>>> >> decisions about when to accept extended time and that we aim to
>>>>>> >> use it only when it is truly necessary and beneficial. In order to
>>>>>> >> grow as students progressing toward employment, I think we should
>>>>>> >> also be aware of why we are finding ourselves needing extra time
>>>>>> >> and see if there are skill issues we might be able to address so
>>>>>> >> that we need it less in the future. In my own case my weakness
>>>>>> >> with tactile diagrams probably won't impact me much on the job,
>>>>>> >> but a weakness in Braille reading speed or Web navigation is
>>>>>> >> something that can be addressed with training and practice and
>>>>>> >> addressing it can make a person much more competitive on the job,
>>>>>> >> and able to get the job done as efficiently as sightedd
>>>>>> >> colleagues.
>>>>>> >> Best,
>>>>>> >> Arielle
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> >>
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>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kaiti
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie McG
>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National
>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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