[nabs-l] unaccommodating professors

Sun Jan 13 03:14:05 UTC 2013

Arielle,
What a story. That is terrible. If that student wanted to, they had grounds 
for suing I think.
I use dss and find them a necessary part of my school studies; sometimes a 
necessary evil though.
I need them to get accomodations. Every semester I am at this community 
college, their policy is that
I get my memo of accomodation, MOA, from them.
I give that to professors. It has accomodations like extended time on exams, 
use of other devices for notetaking, electronic handouts, and
option to record lectures. Alternate formats of textbooks is on it, but as I 
said before, I rarely get a format I can use.

Anyway, that's too bad your college had a heavy hand i n it all by 
contacting
professors for materials because blind students can get that themselves.
I would have hated this. If professors want to have conversations with dss, 
they should include the blind student.
I was at George mason university, GMU,  before marymount university.
At that time the dss did not talk to professors much and let the blind 
student do most advocacy. Sure they had accomodation memos and had a testing 
room for students to use, but it was up to the blind student to distribute 
the accomodation memo and
get needed material from professors.
Now things have changed from what I heard. Now, they talk to professors for 
you and distribute
letters for you. I don't know whether gmu goes as far as requesting all 
materials a professor will use, but it would not surprise me if theydid.
That is just so so custodial, not to mention time inefficient. Professors 
can email us documents. No need to send to the dss office and the dss send 
them to us.

And suggesting someone drop a class is utter discrimination. How terrible.

Anyway, I'll just find another class.

Ashley
-----Original Message----- 
From: Arielle Silverman
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 9:42 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unaccommodating professors

Hi all,
Marc, I completely agree with you, but unfortunately I suspect that
talking to professors about students without students is the norm
rather than the exception among DSS offices. I could be wrong, but say
that based on my own experience with my former university's office,
whose counselors would repeatedly have discussions with my professors
without making any effort to include me. I know of at least two
conversations and don't know how many others happened that I was not
told about. They also sent letters to all blind students' professors
at the beginning of each semester asking for detailed information
about all the materials used in that professor's class, instead of
trusting the blind student to get them that information. I found this
practice not only disrespectful by leaving out the student, but also
inefficient because sometimes professors would give them supplementary
info that I didn't really need converted because it was already
accessible or not critical to the class. If I had been involved in
those email conversations it would have reduced their workload
significantly. However, the worst was what happened to my friend, when
the DSS counselor urged him to drop a class and take it with a
different professor without giving him any explanation. When my friend
and I (and a few other NFB folks) confronted them about their
practices of engaging our professors in discussions without us, and I
asked why they had urged my friend to drop his class, the DSS
counselor said "I am not allowed to tell him why he needed to drop the
class, because of confidentiality". So apparently it is more important
to protect the privacy of a professor's comments about a blind student
than it is to disclose full information to a student that could affect
their academic choices?
I suspect the problem with overbearing DSS staff is about ADA
lawsuits. DSS people are motivated to make sure they don't get sued
for being under-accommodating, so they are motivated to maintain
control of accommodation-related conversations as much as possible. If
they get questions from professors and direct the professor to talk to
the student, as they should, they risk having the issue go unresolved
and ending up with a lawsuit. By staying in control of those
conversations the DSS staff are ensuring they come off as being as
accommodating as possible so they can't get blamed later on for
problems. Unfortunately this attitude undermines the autonomy and
rights of blind students.
What I will say is that there is a trade-off between resources and
autonomy when you do anything through a DSS office, and it's up to you
how you want to handle that trade-off. For instance, if you prefer
Braille for certain classes and the DSS provides Braille, then it
might be worth the hassle and loss of autonomy to go ahead and work
with them. However, if your DSS is incredibly custodial like my old
one was and/or if you would be fine with audio or E-text copies of
books from BookShare or the publisher, or if the DSS doesn't provide
much help to begin with, (i.e. no Braille) then you can forgo DSS
help. In my own case, after my run-in with DSS late in my junior year,
I stopped working with them and instead obtained my books from
Learning Ally or scanned them. No professor had any issue with my not
being involved with DSS anymore. However by that time I was done with
most of my science classes so Braille was less critical. If it had
happened earlier in my education I might have stuck it out with DSS.
In either case, just know that DSS is one of many options you have.
Arielle

On 1/12/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Marc,
>
> I did mention that it wasn't right for him to ignore her, and do see
> the counselor as more at fault than the professor.  We can't really
> say if it was infantilizing or not because it isn't necessarily the
> professor's job to know exactly how to do things for us in the
> appropriate way, and some profs do view the office as not the
> custodian of disabled students, but a resource for advice.  The
> professor should be able to use the resources including the ds office
> that are available to him, but it is then up to the ds office to
> either offer helpful advice and to inform the prof that it's really
> not that different from working with a sighted student, or totally
> feed into the professor's negative mindset or intimidation by not
> saying, "Here, why don't we let the student tell you herself?"  My
> office urges professors to contact them with any questions that
> concern accomodations they have granted the student, because they,
> after all, are the deciding factor in what assistance we can and
> cannot receive.  I do see the prof not returning Ashley's call as rude
> and agree with you there, but this is no different from a good 80 to
> 90 percent of people we come into contact with who are scared of the
> idea of working with blind people simply because they don't know.  It
> sounds like Ashley has had problems with her ds office before though,
> (Not providing textbooks in a reasonable format like word or text
> sounds ridiculous to me, and they really have no excuse for not trying
> to meet her halfway since they're supposed to be there to help her),
> and I agree the counselor should have tried to bring her into the
> conversation in a more professional way, or at least directed the prof
> back to Ashley herself with his questions.  If there was any
> infantilizing treatment, I'd guess it was more on the counselor's part
> than the prof's because the counselor really should have known better.
>  I'm not saying he is totally not to blame, but I was just saying that
> this is nothing new and instead of treating it by blaming him for
> approaching the situation this way when he might have felt really
> intimidated because of ignorance the focus should be on changing his
> expectations and outlook on working with a blind student.
>
> Maybe I'm in a different situation though.  The one time I know of
> that a professor talked with my ds office without me was when they
> were working to braille my stats book way in advance.  A few weeks ago
> he asked them what they felt would be appropriate ways to handle using
> work sheets so that he could give me accessible options to choose
> from.  I was initially told this by my counselor, but he emailed me
> the next afternoon and gave me the same options so I felt like he was
> trying to make sure the choices he gave me would work no matter which
> one I chose, not trying to decide something for me behind my back.  On
> the other hand, I had a prof last semester who was horrible and who
> never contacted the DS office about anything, not even my materials to
> make sure they were okay or anything.  He was really ignorant and even
> made some rude remarks in class about my blindness, and although I
> tried to educate him by example in class he wouldn't budge the whole
> semester.  Even during finals week he wouldn't fill out the form for
> sending his exam to them and I had to get the office to personally
> contact him in order for them to get his exam in time.  This is why I
> approve of professors contacting the disabilities office because odds
> are that if they're taking the time to do so it's because they want
> advice or want to know what they can do in their teaching to be
> helpful to us as students.  But like I said, it's up to the
> disabilities office to either make that professor feel more aware of
> the capabilities of blind students and prepared to teach them as well
> as their sighted pupils, or not educate or positively advise at all.
> Sounds to me like that was what really happened here.
>
> On 1/12/13, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kaiti wrote,
>>> I completely agree with Arielle.  Perhaps the guy isn't necessarily
>>> bad, he's just intimidated which would explain why he would have gone
>>> to the ds office.  I'm not saying it was right, but odds are he's
>>> never had a blind student before and is just scared and doesn't know
>>> what to do.  I doubt he would have really meant disrespect, but was
>>> probably just flustered and out of his comfort zone.  He probably just
>>> wanted some guidance from the ds people, which if that's the case then
>>> it's good he was proactive and trying to use his resources (the ds
>>> office is there for the professors too).  However, he should have at
>>> least returned your call or sent you an email to at least know he got
>>> your message, and perhaps your ds counselor should have presented that
>>> tidbit to you in a better way.
>>
>> I think you're being too easy on the prof. Yes, he's probably not a bad
>> person, but it was completely inappropriate for him to ignore Ashley and
>> consult with the DS office. Something similar happened to me once, and I
>> found it thoroughly disrespectful. In what other situation does a prof
>> ignore the student and instead discuss that student's participation with
>> some other third party? Would that prof go to the international centre if
>> he
>> was approached by an international student? Perhaps, but I seriously
>> doubt
>> it. He went to the DS office because the DS office is understood by some
>> as
>> the custodians of disabled students on campus. Viewing disabled students
>> and
>> the DS office that way indicates a lack of respect in my opinion.
>>
>> The real issue, though, is that the councillor let this meeting take
>> place
>> without saying we should reschedule and invite Ashley to discuss these
>> issues. The prof is just ignorant and needs to be educated, but the
>> councillor should know better. Discussions about accommodations and our
>> participation in the classroom directly concern us, and we should be an
>> active participant in such discussions, not the child in the corner who
>> the
>> grown ups have to decide what to do with. As Lavonya's signature states:
>> "nothing about us without us". If a prof has concerns about me, he should
>> approach me as he would any other student. If a councillor is approached
>> by
>> a prof concerning a student, she should direct the prof to the proper
>> authority, the student.
>>
>> I take no position on whether to stick it out in the class or walk away,
>> but
>> what the prof and councillor did was entirely infantilizing and
>> inappropriate.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Marc
>> On 2013-01-12, at 5:09 PM, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ashley,
>>>
>>> I completely agree with Arielle.  Perhaps the guy isn't necessarily
>>> bad, he's just intimidated which would explain why he would have gone
>>> to the ds office.  I'm not saying it was right, but odds are he's
>>> never had a blind student before and is just scared and doesn't know
>>> what to do.  I doubt he would have really meant disrespect, but was
>>> probably just flustered and out of his comfort zone.  He probably just
>>> wanted some guidance from the ds people, which if that's the case then
>>> it's good he was proactive and trying to use his resources (the ds
>>> office is there for the professors too).  However, he should have at
>>> least returned your call or sent you an email to at least know he got
>>> your message, and perhaps your ds counselor should have presented that
>>> tidbit to you in a better way.  Going to his class a few times might
>>> show him that it's not really a big deal and eleviate te situation
>>> though.
>>>
>>> Sounds like your ds office isn't very helpful at all as you said.  My
>>> office has an online form for ordering alternative formats, and they
>>> let you choose between pdf, word, and txt documents.  They also offer
>>> a few different services for dealing with pictures and such.  Most of
>>> the time I can deal with my professors describing what is on the board
>>> as they lecture, (I tell them on the first day that it's really
>>> beneficial for me if they do that), and I'm fine.  For diagrams in my
>>> books I can usually get tactile representations or have them brailled
>>> out in advance.  For videos shown in class the office offers services
>>> including text descriptions of what is on screen or a volunteer reader
>>> in cases where we watch films with subtitles.  I used a reader when
>>> one of my classes watched a Chinese movie with subtitles and she was
>>> very good about reading the text and describing important details on
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> If your office won't help with this sort of thing, perhaps you could
>>> find someone in your classes who wouldn't mind quickly describing
>>> pictures on the board and such during class.  As long as they sit
>>> close to you it shouldn't be a big deal for them to lean over and
>>> whisper a description.  Also, I have had a few instances where the
>>> professor accidentally overlooked a few diagrams in the book, but was
>>> able to get the jist of what they were like from asking a friend.
>>> Studying with others is extremely beneficial.
>>>
>>> On 1/12/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Ashley and all,
>>>> I completely agree that it was inappropriate for your professor to go
>>>> talk with DSS behind your back when you had placed a call to him and
>>>> attempted to engage him in a discussion. However, I would suggest that
>>>> dropping his class and taking a different one is letting him win. What
>>>> I might propose instead is to attend the first few days of his class
>>>> and see what the assignments are like and if you are able to keep up
>>>> with them or not. Oftentimes sighted professors put a lot of faith in
>>>> the videos, pictures, etc. they show when in fact blind students don't
>>>> really need this content to keep up. Also, as others have suggested,
>>>> if you read the material before class, you may not need to keep up
>>>> with the paragraph or page number the others are reading in class in
>>>> order to participate in discussion. Instead of letting the professor
>>>> decide for you whether or not his class is accessible, go to a few
>>>> classes and you can make an informed choice based on what you know
>>>> about how you learn and what problems you can solve on your own. If
>>>> after an honest attempt you still find you are having trouble keeping
>>>> up, then you can drop his class knowing that you in fact made the
>>>> right choice. On the other hand, you might find the class is more
>>>> accessible than he is making it out to be and that it is in fact
>>>> interesting and informative.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>> On 1/12/13, Misty Dawn Bradley <mistydbradley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I think there is something called Save as text under the file menu in
>>>>> the
>>>>> free version of Adobe, because I have used it before. It is not in the
>>>>> Save
>>>>> As box though. It is its own separate item in the menu, and it lets
>>>>> you
>>>>> save
>>>>> the file as a text file.
>>>>> Hth,
>>>>> Misty
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "wmodnl wmodnl" <wmodnl at hotmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 9:16 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unaccommodating professors
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The only way to save a PDF as something else, is to use the
>>>>>> professional
>>>>>> or full addition of Adobe.  You can not do this with the traditional
>>>>>> Adobe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> reader.   Make sure the computer has 9 or 10.  The link will read buy
>>>>>> JFW
>>>>>> as:
>>>>>> Adobe complete, or Adobe professional 9.0, etc.  Most DS offices have
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> program and can make this conversion for you.  Hope this helps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 12, 2013, at 1:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> well, I've tried that in other classes. I'm not dumb.
>>>>>>> The computer either froze or the pdf would not allow me to save it
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> text. I think the publisher protected it somehow so you cannot
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, as I've said before, the disability office has not and never
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> give me a doc file.
>>>>>>> Of course I asked for this. I wanted to put the doc file on a flash
>>>>>>> drive
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to read on my braillenote  in class.
>>>>>>> They always tell me the publisher only can send pdfs; they have not
>>>>>>> invested the time to attempt to convert it themselves. Also, they
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> fight with the publisher if they wanted to for a more accessible
>>>>>>> format
>>>>>>> such as rtf or doc files.
>>>>>>> But they don't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This community college does not go out of its way to help and
>>>>>>> accommodate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> students.
>>>>>>> I often work out issues myself with professors and order my own
>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> try and leave dss out of it. but when the professor wants you to
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>> another class and goes to your dss counselor without your
>>>>>>> knowledge,
>>>>>>> there is nothing you can do.
>>>>>>> If he were going to work with me he would not have stepped behind
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> only reason
>>>>>>> I know he went to dss was since the dss counselor called me and
>>>>>>> stated
>>>>>>> she spoke to him and wanted to discuss with me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know what so called accomodations she was going to discuss
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> never will know. We are not! discussing this bad situation. I should
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> an instructor willing to work with me. I
>>>>>>> have never found this counselor helpful and I'm not talking to her.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> think all she'll say is the challenges involved and when I ask for
>>>>>>> videos
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to be described by the professor or someone, she'll say the college
>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> required to do it. I've asked for a braille test before, and she
>>>>>>> told
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> they don't have to provide my prefered format; I had to take i t
>>>>>>> auditorily.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given her relunctance to do much but the bare minimum of things, I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> discussing it is fruitless and I'll simply look for other options
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> email her that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s a bad situation. Its shaken my trust somewhat. When you email
>>>>>>> professors it should remain between you and them period.
>>>>>>> I expect to keep conversations between us since  all other students
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> this right.
>>>>>>> No third party should be involved without your consent or knowledge.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tempted to place in subsequent corespondence when I inquire about
>>>>>>> classes, that this communication is confidential. Heck, if anyone
>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>> this again, I will do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then, if they violate my right to privacy and confidentiality, I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> written proof of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I'll see what happens next week when I go to class.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 1:01 AM
>>>>>>> To: Misty Dawn Bradley ; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unaccommodating professors
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>> There is a pretty simple way of converting PDF to TXT:
>>>>>>> when you open the PDF go to
>>>>>>> "save as other"
>>>>>>> hit text
>>>>>>> Enter the name and location and there you go.
>>>>>>> Also, ask the disability center for a .doc and they should be
>>>>>>> accommodating,
>>>>>>> I've never heard of one that wasn't for that.
>>>>>>> There are a million other ways to get a PDF to TXT, but that is
>>>>>>> first.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Misty Dawn Bradley
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:45 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unaccommodating professors
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> If you are able to get the book from Learning Ally, the books are
>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> where you can set them to go page by page, by chapter, by heading,
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> sentence, so this may help with at least finding the page number,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> if you go by sentence or if there is a paragraph setting then you
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> able to find the paragraph easier.
>>>>>>> Hth,
>>>>>>> Misty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 12:34 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unaccommodating professors
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brandon,
>>>>>>>> Yes professors are set inttheir ways. This is one of them. Students
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> that class have to for instance, see paragraph 2 on page 14.
>>>>>>>> I usually use audio formats so cannot use text to search.
>>>>>>>> I have tried to get the electronic copy, but as I said before, they
>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> me pdfs which jaws has trouble reading.
>>>>>>>> Even if jaws reads it, I don't have page numbers since the book is
>>>>>>>> broken down by chapters or parts.
>>>>>>>> Each part or chapter is a large file.
>>>>>>>> So its impossible to look at a book as others do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm glad it worked for you, but I know with videos coupled with the
>>>>>>>> reliance of books, it is a tough teaching style to follow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just hate when professors are not willing to talk to you and go
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> dss office.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 12:17 AM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unaccommodating professors
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>> I had a superstar professor who did this. He was an older guy and
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> very set in his ways. He had about 2000 students on his Corse load
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> was also an international star. He said I would probably fail his
>>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>>> because he used lots of pictures and he wrote lots on the board. He
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> said that I would not benefit from the top notch pictures he both
>>>>>>>> presented
>>>>>>>> in front of the class and had in the textbook he wrote. He told my
>>>>>>>> Disability counselor he was not sure how I would deal with the pop
>>>>>>>> quizzes.
>>>>>>>> On top of that, I was an honors student who had a steeper grading
>>>>>>>> scale
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> the normal students.
>>>>>>>> I told him not to worry, if he was willing to listen to me, we
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> something out. I took the head of the Accessibility department to
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> office hours and we hammered him with every problem a week after
>>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>>> started and we gave solutions. We also presented alternatives for
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> choose from. He then gave us his opinions and what he was willing
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>> I talked to the professor every week and just made sure things were
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>> well on his part. I ended up getting an easy A in that class and
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> one of my favorite classes I have ever taken.
>>>>>>>> May I ask why you can't read paragraphs other students are reading?
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> do a search for words in my word document.
>>>>>>>> Teacher tells us to look at page 45, paragraph 7 that starts "He
>>>>>>>> looked
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> where her boots lay in the mud..."
>>>>>>>> I search for that and it only takes a second to search through the
>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>> book.
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
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