[nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description

[Dan Burke]

Steve,

I may have gotten myself in further than I should be given my actual
first-hand knowledge of Netflix and such.  After all, I can hardly stand to
watch most Hollywood movies, and this has been true for 30 years or so, back
when I could see the big screen.

Having said that ...

*	Educational institutions would indeed be responsible for ensuring
that they used films with description or that they were described.  That is
the principle we used when we went after the Kindle pilot in higher
education 4 or 5 years ago.  It hasn't meant, however, that we haven't
continued to pursue accessibility in eBooks with Amazon in other forums or
eBooks generally in as many for a as necessary.  Besides, inaccessible
document formats such as PDF (image only) and learning management systems
are ubiquitous in higher ed now, despite inaccessibility to blind students,
so it makes sense to work at accessibility from multiple directions.  We
are, after all, not even remotely "sue-happy." (smile)

*	I do know that DVDs often come with multiple audio tracks, including
audio descriptions.  I agree that the question that must be clarified is
whether blind users want Netflix to carry forward the descriptive tracks
already produced for theaters and disc sales, or to ensure that everything
is described.  Of course, we can assume that if you get a DVD in the mail
from Netflix and you can navigate the menus to activate, you can already get
access to audio descriptions from the physical media where they have been
included already.

*	I have no first-hand knowledge of multiple-audio tracks that can be
streamed via Netflix, so I may have gone too far out on that limb. Others
will need to clarify this.

*	As for the menus, I agree that streaming  via from the web using a
speech-enabled device should minimize the accessibility problems of putting
a DVD into a traditional (and now obsolete) player.  The menus on the screen
for streaming are potentially readable with JAWS or Voice Over, etc.  

*	Mozilla ran a Subtitle Project a few years ago, using volunteers (if
not crowd-sourcing) to write and synch subtitles to films in as many
languages as people cared to make.  They didn't corrupt or alter the
original, just created a synched captioning. At the university I worked at,
we used this project to caption videos for deaf students.   This is a
concept that could be considered for audio description.

Let me make myself clear, however, I will not pursue this as a resolution.
If others wish to do so, I recommend that they take note of the comments on
this in this thread when crafting and submitting a resolution.  If it's a
good one, I would vote for it.

Best,
Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:38 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description

Dan,

I think, though, that a case can probably be made that it is the
responsibility of an educational institution to make course 
materials available in an accessible format, especially in as wide-ranging a
case as any entertainment.  Therefore, I don't know 
that using Netflix in an educational setting necessarily makes this case.  

What is meant that the extra channel is already there in the Netflix stream?
I've been following this topic and there has been so 
much that has been said that appears to me to be inconsistent or even
misleading that I think we need to try to sort it out.  I 
have not noticed that there are multiple audio channels available on a
Netflix stream, would you explain?

At the R&D meeting this year there was a presentation on a project to figure
out how to make descriptions available from another 
source that could be synchronized with movies.  They were also working on
making it possible for a description of a movie to be 
made by an individual and have that description shared.  One of the problems
that confront us with an issue like this is that the 
technology is changing rapidly.  Also, do I assume from this that there is
no problem with movies from other sources, that only 
Netflix is falling down in this area?  From the discussion here, it isn't
even clear to me what people expect Netflix to do, just 
pass through whatever is available for descriptions or actually add
descriptions for every movie they make available?  

You mentioned that menus might be more accessible with streamed movies.  I
am aware of issues in general with the accessibility of 
DVD movies, but I have not observed similar menus when streaming a Netflix
movie.  Unless they are passing down the entire 
structure of a DVD, I don't see how this fits in, but I readily admit I'm no
expert in this area, and your explanations would be 
appreciated.

Your comments below seem to indicate that you have a pretty good
understanding of what is being asked, so perhaps you can clarify.  
I think we have to be careful to be sure we have defined well what we ask,
especially in resolutions.  There are some posts hear 
that appear to think that if you wish a law applies that it makes it so, and
there are some variables here.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 08:18:51 -0600, Dan Burke wrote:

>Yes, anything that is used for entertainment purposes these days is
>going to end up in the classroom at just about any educational level.

>And when we're talking about NetFlix  we're talking about the
>streaming service, and people don't watch those on the traditional
>television.  They are run through a computer or iPad or the like, and
>thus the menus have a better chance of being accessible.

>And the technology to stream an alternate audio track is already
>there, making the point very clear that those films that already have
>descriptive tracks from the film distributor or studio could easily be
>streamed that way. Many DVDs and Bluerays come with these already.

>The members of the NFB are who set the priorities of the organization,
>and this is done through the Resolution process at convention.  This
>would be - and would have been - a good matter for a resolution.

>Dan


>On 7/16/13, Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu> wrote:
>> Hi, Arielle!
>> First of all, Netflicks is used in an educational setting, believe it or
>> not!
>> In my American Federal Government class, my professor ordered the movie,
>> "Food Inc," from Netflicks, and there was no audio description.
>> If people are going to use Netflicks to get movies to show in a class,
>> Netflicks needs to use audio description, and the NFB should at least
call
>> them, and ask them to do it, as a group!
>> A petition might work, if someone can put one together.
>> I'm having problems navigating Survey Monkey, so I don't know how to
start
>> the petition.
>> Thanks, Joshua
>> ________________________________________
>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Arielle Silverman
>> [arielle71 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 9:04 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>
>> I agree it would be easy enough to get Netflix content described, but
>> I wouldn't rank it high on my own priority list. For me the biggest
>> battles we fight should revolve around education, employment and
>> access to health and safety information. The NFB has gone after
>> accessibility cases before, but most were directly related to
>> educational or job-related content, like inaccessible Kindles being
>> used in classrooms and inaccessible Google apps. I suppose the Target
>> lawsuit was an exception, and so I wasn't totally in agreement with
>> that one, unless someone could convince me that making Target.com
>> accessible would help more people get jobs. I love online shopping,
>> but just don't think it's as important as these other things.
>> I also have mixed feelings about audio description itself. There are
>> times when it is helpful, but it can also be distracting and alter the
>> mood of a movie or show. For example, when I watched the Sound of
>> Music in described format, I was annoyed by the narrators cutting into
>> all my favorite songs. Sometimes I wonder if I would enjoy
>> action-adventure films more if they were described, but then again I'm
>> not sure how much fight scenes would interest me even if I knew
>> exactly what was happening. Finally, audio description does no good if
>> the television, DVD player or Netflix program doesn't have accessible
>> controls. Many modern televisions don't have accessible menus, so I'm
>> not sure how easily a blind person can turn audio description on and
>> off without sighted help even if it was available. To me, going to all
>> the trouble of making something described and then playing it on an
>> inaccessible device totally nullifies any benefits of the audio
>> description, and this ends up wasting the time and money of the folks
>> who made it described in the first place. So I'd like to see us press
>> on with initiatives that will make user electronics accessible before
>> we worry too much about audio-describing the content.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 7/15/13, Jedi Moerke <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> That's a very interesting argument in favor of captioning for the deaf.
I
>>> wonder why we couldn't use it for descriptions  for the blind?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jul 15, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All,
>>>> First and foremost, Dan is of course right, litigation is the very
>>>> last options which the NFB, as well as most sensible people, resort
>>>> to. Legal battles are slow, cumbersome, and take up a lot of
>>>> resources, both human and economical. It is true that the NFB has won
>>>> some essential battles in the courtroom, but I can assure you that
>>>> those battles have come after we have tried talking, advocating,
>>>> negotiation, protesting with no tangible results. And those cases that
>>>> do go to court, are cases based on rights that are available to
>>>> everyone else, and which are so ubiquitous, that it is unreasonable to
>>>> just sit back and accept that thats the way the world works for blind
>>>> people. That we will be excluded from programs, services and
>>>> activities which the sighted world can enjoy, and that there's nothing
>>>> we can do about it. It is every American's right to resort to the
>>>> justice system when their civil rights are being violated.
>>>> Joshua, as far as the ADA and Netflicks...  The ADA covers places,
>>>> programs and services of public accommodations. So for instance, any
>>>> member of the public can go to a restaurant, thus, a restaurant must
>>>> be physically accessible to disabled Americans. The issue of web
>>>> accessibility is complex and is a very young work in public. Thus far,
>>>> most successful web accessibility and technology lawsuits, have been
>>>> successful on the premisce that this web service has a physical
>>>> equivalent. A good example ofthis are websites for retail stores. If
>>>> you can walk into Target and buy a shirt, you should be able to go
>>>> online and buy a shirt. Netflix is a private enterprise, and there
>>>> really isn't a physical equivalent to a movie which offers additional
>>>> accessibility. There was a Netflix caption lawsuit which was
>>>> successful because we had some brilliant lawyers argue, that ones home
>>>> is a place of public accommodation, and that Netflix is so ubiquitous
>>>> in every home, that one should be able to fully access that service.
>>>> That's the very watered down version of the argument. So the short
>>>> answer is that no, DOJ has not issued any kind of mandate which says
>>>> that movies must have descriptive audio. The only setting for which
>>>> that would be an argument which falls under ADA is in an educational
>>>> setting, where the visual is a mandatory part of the curriculum.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Mary
>>>>
>>>> On 7/15/13, Melissa Hambleton <nightfury19 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> My boyfriend, who is 33 years old (same as me) and he is sighted, has
>>>>> said
>>>>> time and time again how it would be nice that Netflix would have
>>>>> description
>>>>>
>>>>> on their movies. When we watch DVDs my boyfriend always looks for the
>>>>> description feature and he even appreciates it sometimes because every
>>>>> now
>>>>> and again, the narrator will say something that my boyfriend didn't
>>>>> notice
>>>>> on the TV screen.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dan Burke" <dburke at cocenter.org>
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 2:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would concur with Steve's comments adding that in every case where
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>> has filed suit, it has thoroughly exhausted all the advocacy avenues
>>>>>> available.  Thus, there are many things that move successfully ahead
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> strong advocacy and never get to the stage of a lawsuit. You can see
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the positive results with companies on this year's convention agenda,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as Desire 2 Learn; and those in other presentations such as Pearson
>>>>>> Online.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>> Jacobson
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One has to be careful not to attribute every message on an NFB list
to
>>>>>> necessarily be the policy or even the thinking of the NFB.
>>>>>> For one thing, I'm not at all certain that there is a law under which
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sue
>>>>>> in this case.  Also, our treasury isn't exactly
>>>>>> bottomless so we have to prioritize
>>>>>> where to spend money and what the liklihood is of getting a positive
>>>>>> result.
>>>>>> We are really pretty careful regarding the legal
>>>>>> action we undertake.  There are times when legal action is the only
>>>>>> available course of action, but there has to be a pretty clear
>>>>>> law or precedence upon which to base such action.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 10:53:16 -0600, Valerie Gibson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think one of the problems with the NFB is our reputation for being
>>>>>>> "sue
>>>>>> happy".
>>>>>>> And with the last email, I see where we get that rep, seeing as it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> first response to something like this.  In the link,
>>>>>> it seems that only one netflix representative was spoken to. Why not
>>>>>> ask,
>>>>>> via email or phone, if there is anyone to which one can
>>>>>> speak to figure out how you can colaborate to making netflix movies
>>>>>> descriptive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My personal opinion, you're not going to get much headway with this.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>> issue doesn't affect all blind people, and so not all
>>>>>> blind people are going to be on board with this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As some may know, i'm interested in becoming a certified dog
trainer,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>> one could argue that that doesn't affect all blind
>>>>>> people. owever it is a potential job prospect, which affects income,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> jobs and income are not the same as the ability to have
>>>>>> descriptive movies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Furthermore, not all blind people like movies in descriptive and
find
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>> destracting.  Depending on the movie, i am one such
>>>>>> person, so my thoughts here could be a little bias.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would it be nice for just the option to watch movies in descriptive?
>>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>> But i think before we jump to "let's sue them", we
>>>>>> should at least do something more passive.  A petition perhaps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2013, at 10:13 AM, The weird writer
>>>>>>> <weirdwriter9891 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Netflix says "no" to audio description. why?
>>>>>>
http://netflixproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/netflix-says-no-to-audio-
>>>>>> description/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
>>>> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them
>>>> feel."
>>>> 
>>>> Maya Angelou
>>>>
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