[nabs-l] Access to movies and public transit: was Re:netflixsays "no" to audio description

Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. freethaught at gmail.com
Sat Jul 20 03:12:20 UTC 2013 

Thanks Melissa,

I was probably over moderating myself.
I've learned a great deal about issues and one of the best ways is to engage in open, civil discussions like this one.

Best,

Antonio


On Jul 18, 2013, at 11:21 PM, "melissa Green" <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:

> antonio.
> I didn't think you were cluttering up the list at all.
> You were just putting your opinions out there.
> 
> Blessings,
> Melissa Green and PJ
> Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
> drive out hate; only love can do that.--Martin Luther King, Jr.
> facebook Melissa R Green
> twitter: melissa5674
> Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
> skype: lissa5674
> Goodreads Melissa Green
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." <freethaught at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Access to movies and public transit: was 
> Re:netflixsays "no" to audio description
> 
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I realize I have cluttered the list for the past few days. I will take some 
> of these NFB policy discussions over to the NFB-Talk list so students can 
> get to the business of reading on topic messages.
> 
> See you there.
> 
> Antonio
> 
> On Jul 17, 2013, at 10:02 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. 
> <freethaught at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Melissa and others,
>> 
>> While educational and job-related access to technology should get 
>> priority, I don't see anything wrong with addressing entertainment, and 
>> other secondary issues as an organization.
>> 
>> This discussion actually perpetuates the idea that the national Federation 
>> of the blind is not friendly to descriptive video access.
>> 
>> We are willing to sweep the descriptive video access issue under the rug, 
>> and ignore it as a "nice to have", even annoying feature, but not very 
>> important.
>> 
>> There are certain issues that the AND Nfb does not address that deserve 
>> the utmost attention.
>> 
>> When was the last resolution regarding public transportation proposed, and 
>> past? We are a member organization, and I am a member. I could very well 
>> bring this up at any point, but, I can't imagine that we, employment – 
>> focused people haven't given mass transit the priority it deserves.
>> 
>> Here is an area of interest to all, and a good opportunity to collaborate 
>> with other organizations to improve mass transit.
>> 
>> Here we have a division for car enthusiasts, but no attention to 
>> Independent, efficient, and accessible mobility in big cities throughout 
>> the country.
>> 
>> It amazes me that no small group out of the 50,000 strong membership 
>> hasn't thought of a useful policy in public transit.
>> 
>> The quiet car issue does come to mind when I think of it. but I guess we 
>> don't want to get involved in the debates regarding audible cross signals, 
>> and truncated domes all over again.
>> 
>> So here's to the big city and public transit,
>> 
>> Antonio
>> 
>> On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:01 PM, melissa Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> right on Arielle.
>>> I completely agree with you.
>>> I loved the DVS discriptive vidio service and I also love the listings of 
>>> tv
>>> programs, and the fact that it mentions audio description.
>>> But there are more important things that we need to focus on, like the
>>> keosks that aren't accessible.
>>> 
>>> Blessings,
>>> Melissa Green and PJ
>>> facebook Melissa R Green
>>> Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
>>> skype: lissa5674
>>> Goodreads Melissa Green
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:04 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I agree it would be easy enough to get Netflix content described, but
>>> I wouldn't rank it high on my own priority list. For me the biggest
>>> battles we fight should revolve around education, employment and
>>> access to health and safety information. The NFB has gone after
>>> accessibility cases before, but most were directly related to
>>> educational or job-related content, like inaccessible Kindles being
>>> used in classrooms and inaccessible Google apps. I suppose the Target
>>> lawsuit was an exception, and so I wasn't totally in agreement with
>>> that one, unless someone could convince me that making Target.com
>>> accessible would help more people get jobs. I love online shopping,
>>> but just don't think it's as important as these other things.
>>> I also have mixed feelings about audio description itself. There are
>>> times when it is helpful, but it can also be distracting and alter the
>>> mood of a movie or show. For example, when I watched the Sound of
>>> Music in described format, I was annoyed by the narrators cutting into
>>> all my favorite songs. Sometimes I wonder if I would enjoy
>>> action-adventure films more if they were described, but then again I'm
>>> not sure how much fight scenes would interest me even if I knew
>>> exactly what was happening. Finally, audio description does no good if
>>> the television, DVD player or Netflix program doesn't have accessible
>>> controls. Many modern televisions don't have accessible menus, so I'm
>>> not sure how easily a blind person can turn audio description on and
>>> off without sighted help even if it was available. To me, going to all
>>> the trouble of making something described and then playing it on an
>>> inaccessible device totally nullifies any benefits of the audio
>>> description, and this ends up wasting the time and money of the folks
>>> who made it described in the first place. So I'd like to see us press
>>> on with initiatives that will make user electronics accessible before
>>> we worry too much about audio-describing the content.
>>> 
>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>> On 7/15/13, Jedi Moerke <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> That's a very interesting argument in favor of captioning for the deaf. 
>>>> I
>>>> wonder why we couldn't use it for descriptions  for the blind?
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 15, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> All,
>>>>> First and foremost, Dan is of course right, litigation is the very
>>>>> last options which the NFB, as well as most sensible people, resort
>>>>> to. Legal battles are slow, cumbersome, and take up a lot of
>>>>> resources, both human and economical. It is true that the NFB has won
>>>>> some essential battles in the courtroom, but I can assure you that
>>>>> those battles have come after we have tried talking, advocating,
>>>>> negotiation, protesting with no tangible results. And those cases that
>>>>> do go to court, are cases based on rights that are available to
>>>>> everyone else, and which are so ubiquitous, that it is unreasonable to
>>>>> just sit back and accept that thats the way the world works for blind
>>>>> people. That we will be excluded from programs, services and
>>>>> activities which the sighted world can enjoy, and that there's nothing
>>>>> we can do about it. It is every American's right to resort to the
>>>>> justice system when their civil rights are being violated.
>>>>> Joshua, as far as the ADA and Netflicks...  The ADA covers places,
>>>>> programs and services of public accommodations. So for instance, any
>>>>> member of the public can go to a restaurant, thus, a restaurant must
>>>>> be physically accessible to disabled Americans. The issue of web
>>>>> accessibility is complex and is a very young work in public. Thus far,
>>>>> most successful web accessibility and technology lawsuits, have been
>>>>> successful on the premisce that this web service has a physical
>>>>> equivalent. A good example ofthis are websites for retail stores. If
>>>>> you can walk into Target and buy a shirt, you should be able to go
>>>>> online and buy a shirt. Netflix is a private enterprise, and there
>>>>> really isn't a physical equivalent to a movie which offers additional
>>>>> accessibility. There was a Netflix caption lawsuit which was
>>>>> successful because we had some brilliant lawyers argue, that ones home
>>>>> is a place of public accommodation, and that Netflix is so ubiquitous
>>>>> in every home, that one should be able to fully access that service.
>>>>> That's the very watered down version of the argument. So the short
>>>>> answer is that no, DOJ has not issued any kind of mandate which says
>>>>> that movies must have descriptive audio. The only setting for which
>>>>> that would be an argument which falls under ADA is in an educational
>>>>> setting, where the visual is a mandatory part of the curriculum.
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> Mary
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/15/13, Melissa Hambleton <nightfury19 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> My boyfriend, who is 33 years old (same as me) and he is sighted, has
>>>>>> said
>>>>>> time and time again how it would be nice that Netflix would have
>>>>>> description
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> on their movies. When we watch DVDs my boyfriend always looks for the
>>>>>> description feature and he even appreciates it sometimes because every
>>>>>> now
>>>>>> and again, the narrator will say something that my boyfriend didn't
>>>>>> notice
>>>>>> on the TV screen.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dan Burke" <dburke at cocenter.org>
>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 2:30 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I would concur with Steve's comments adding that in every case where
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>> has filed suit, it has thoroughly exhausted all the advocacy avenues
>>>>>>> available.  Thus, there are many things that move successfully ahead
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> strong advocacy and never get to the stage of a lawsuit. You can see
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the positive results with companies on this year's convention agenda,
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> as Desire 2 Learn; and those in other presentations such as Pearson
>>>>>>> Online.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>>> Jacobson
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Valerie,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> One has to be careful not to attribute every message on an NFB list 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> necessarily be the policy or even the thinking of the NFB.
>>>>>>> For one thing, I'm not at all certain that there is a law under which
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> sue
>>>>>>> in this case.  Also, our treasury isn't exactly
>>>>>>> bottomless so we have to prioritize
>>>>>>> where to spend money and what the liklihood is of getting a positive
>>>>>>> result.
>>>>>>> We are really pretty careful regarding the legal
>>>>>>> action we undertake.  There are times when legal action is the only
>>>>>>> available course of action, but there has to be a pretty clear
>>>>>>> law or precedence upon which to base such action.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 10:53:16 -0600, Valerie Gibson wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think one of the problems with the NFB is our reputation for being
>>>>>>>> "sue
>>>>>>> happy".
>>>>>>>> And with the last email, I see where we get that rep, seeing as it 
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> first response to something like this.  In the link,
>>>>>>> it seems that only one netflix representative was spoken to. Why not
>>>>>>> ask,
>>>>>>> via email or phone, if there is anyone to which one can
>>>>>>> speak to figure out how you can colaborate to making netflix movies
>>>>>>> descriptive.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> My personal opinion, you're not going to get much headway with this.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> issue doesn't affect all blind people, and so not all
>>>>>>> blind people are going to be on board with this.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As some may know, i'm interested in becoming a certified dog 
>>>>>>>> trainer,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> one could argue that that doesn't affect all blind
>>>>>>> people. owever it is a potential job prospect, which affects income,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> jobs and income are not the same as the ability to have
>>>>>>> descriptive movies.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Furthermore, not all blind people like movies in descriptive and 
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> destracting.  Depending on the movie, i am one such
>>>>>>> person, so my thoughts here could be a little bias.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Would it be nice for just the option to watch movies in descriptive?
>>>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>> But i think before we jump to "let's sue them", we
>>>>>>> should at least do something more passive.  A petition perhaps?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2013, at 10:13 AM, The weird writer
>>>>>>>> <weirdwriter9891 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Netflix says "no" to audio description. why?
>>>>>>> http://netflixproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/netflix-says-no-to-audio-
>>>>>>> description/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>>> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
>>>>> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them
>>>>> feel."
>>>>> —
>>>>> Maya Angelou
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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